Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Scrubbing your teeth with Fixodent Plus...

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Fi and Jane M have treated you to two intros today... lucky you. In other news, Fi poses her theory that the size of your thigh may determine your career. There's also an interlude from Jane G and Hilary Bradt, founder of Bradt Travel Guides, speaking on her new book 'Taking the Risk'. You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601 If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well, because you ice skated so much, both of you, that you've developed the chunk of thigh. I mean, it's a reach. It is. It's a reach. Because I've never ice skated and I've also got the chunk of thigh. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings.

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There's a lot of adrenaline in the building today. Well, we should explain why. Yeah. But by the time this goes out, everyone might already know. Yeah. So there's a lot of adrenaline in the building because everybody is hearing very heavy rumours that the Prime Minister is going to go to see the King. I guess that's what he does.

He's having a cabinet meeting this afternoon, delayed from yesterday because he was in Vienna. And then apparently he's going to go and see the King, ask him to solve Parliament and call an election for July the 4th. Potentially. I mean, I'm hearing this rumour from so many sources. So shall we do two different openings to the podcast, both of which will remain in the podcast

and our listeners can choose which one they are. Yeah, choose your own podcast election adventure. Oh my God, Jane, how do you feel about a July the 4th election? Oh, Fee, I'm just glad to be able to get on with my life after that. It can't come sooner enough as far as I'm concerned. I think there's a great date.

We know the reasons why. Inflation is going to go up again in the autumn. More old people will vote. It's in the middle of the Euros, which means we could be feeling very proud of England. We could not. I don't know how that's going to affect things. That is the least firm lily pad across the pond.

It is. It's as wobbly as that tripod behind me that I just accidentally closed. It is. Yeah. And also because, you know, it wouldn't really depend on the outcome of an England game. There might be people who felt too unwell to get to the station.

That's so true. They should maybe just set up polling booths in the back of pubs. Yes, that would be a good idea. Like, big screen and a polling booth. Just pop it in there. Yeah, could be dangerous. Do you think that the thing that has tipped it all over the edge for Rishi Sunak is the fact that Johnny Mercer

was caught bitching about him on a train? Well, I have to say, actually, I think this has been brewing for a little while. Yes, I think so too. But I think, hopefully, there are enough right-thinking people in his inner circle who have reminded him on a daily basis that on a daily basis,

things just keep happening for the Tories which sort of I can't imagine it getting worse and then the next day it gets worse um you know from Mark Menzies to Johnny Mercer by the way the thing I'm most disgusted about the Johnny Mercer thing is not that he was type slagging off his boss openly on his laptop it's that he was taking his shoes and his socks off while he was doing it barefooted on a train it's an unpleasant evocation of privilege but I think just even that Johnny Mercer is just saying

yeah I mean you're hogging the limelight and nobody likes you and shovel off for people who've missed the Johnny Mercer story it is exactly as Jane says he was on a train he was typing a private message, but this has become public.

Because somebody took a picture of it and sent it to the Times, which I'm, thank you very much, people of England. And he was basically saying, Rishi just needs to let other people who are very popular take the stage a little bit more. And it's all gone off a bit today. So that is the introduction to the podcast if an election

has been called mark the date in your diary it will be july the 4th you don't want to move your dial from the election station and then here is the other introduction to the podcast so jane there was meant to be an election call today or possibly there was and everybody's been ferreting around and endlessly looking at their phones you won't find a journalist today who's not looking at their phone every three seconds, but it's not being called. Is that just another deflating disappointment to you? Yeah, I feel like they sort of led us on a little bit today. I feel like their tease does.

I'm very happy because I think along with so many other people, the holiday's been put for a really long time and I just couldn't cope with having to move all of that yeah i i think that half the reason why many people in this building have been on their phones all day is they're trying to rebook their flights because there's an awful lot of people who is late june early july holidays yeah just trying to see if they can get a refund or like texting their partners to say sorry about that um, we'll be on a war footing, that kind of thing. Anyway, if it's not happening, it's not happening.

There'll be another podcast that we'll do, several that we'll do in days that have the same kind of feeling about them. I just really... It's going to want to do with all the adrenaline now. No, and it would just be enormously helpful to everybody, wouldn't it, to just know. And even if it was going

to be a November or December election I think people want to be able to focus their lives around something else not be constantly distracted and there is always that feeling in politics as you head towards an election that nothing is being done for the sake of it being done everything is being done through a prism of how it looks ahead of an election. And it's wearing. It's very wearing. It's really, really wearing to try and digest the news through that prism.

Well, I think what's been unusual about this year is that, you know, in the UK, we have an election cycle that is meant to be six weeks of campaigning. And it's felt like this campaign has gone on since at least last autumn. It feels more like an American election campaign, which are just exhausting. But the other thing is you're absolutely right. I was away, one of my friends who was with me in Stockholm at the weekend is

a civil servant. And she was saying in her department, it's impossible at the moment because nobody wants to make any big decisions because they're all waiting for an election, or she says they're making decisions too quickly because they just want to get things through so she said actually the business of running this country inside government departments is being completely upended by this you know sort of everyone hedging their bets or rushing i can understand that yeah because they're just really not sure what's going to happen yep uh in other news, I popped off on the way into work today because I realised when I was on the tube I hadn't scrubbed my teeth and that's a terrible thing to come into a public place.

I know. I mean, you're far enough back for this not to be affecting you. And because I didn't have my glasses on because it had been raining and I couldn't see through them, I bought Fix-A-Dent instead of toothpaste, Jane. And I don't think I should use that, should I? That's what you want to stick to your teeth i think this could be quite comical i'm really glad that i didn't get a pipe you could just get the end of a pipe and just stick it to on your front teeth wander around with it all day your lip curled up around it it just it could have got

so much worse because if i'd gone straight to scrub my teeth without putting the glasses on, then what would happen? I've never tasted fix-a-dent before. But look, I'm going to hang on to it, kids, because nothing goes to waste in our house. And I'm sure in probably only five or ten years' time, that will be very useful. Andrew says,

Dear ladies, as an 82-year-old male, I was astonished at the pre-nut waxing couple andrew how delightful to have you on board you're not our key demographic but you're very welcome it made me think that had waxing been available in victorian times it might have saved the marriage of john ruskin the art critic and philosopher he was so horrified to discover that his new wife dear effie gray had hair where he least expected it that the marriage was never consummated isn't that terrible after annulment effie married john everett millais the wonderful pre-raphaelite painter his painting ophelia is so beautiful

but tragic not only the subject but also for poor lizzie sid, his model who died of an overdose of laudanum at only 32. Have I mispronounced every name in that? I don't know. Let's not draw attention to it. No, I'm not going to draw attention. I do want to know, was the death by laudanum related to the lack of waxing, or are these two things completely unrelated?

Well, I think it would be going some, wouldn't it, to be so terrified of depilation that that's the path you take. I don't know. But how awful to be so ignorant of the female body that it's a horror to understand what it is. Well, I don't know. I think it just shows that there's nothing new under the sun because, as I was saying yesterday,

there are enormous numbers of young men who whose first encounter with intimate female parts uh not in real life um does make them think that you know it's normal not to have any hair down there and the Victorians do have an awful lot to answer for don't they just in terms of their obsession with modesty and prurience I feel the weight of it in my own life sometimes, Jane, and I wish it wasn't there. Take your crinolines off. Just take the crinolines off and you'll feel a lot better.

Christine says, at last you've given the answer to my husband's irritating habit of adopting an accent when we travel to France. I love this. Being a good secondary modern educated lad, he never had access to learn a language. As a family, we look at him in despair on holidays as he speaks in Indian, Greek, American accents.

We think he thinks he's actually speaking the language of that country. To now suggest his behaviour is caused by a head injury helps us understand. We'd love a tote bag, as recommended this podcast, Times Radio, by my tennis mate, Jill Dykes. Well, Christine, I'm definitely going to put you on the pile.

And that is funny, isn't it? When you get to France, instead of saying bonjour, hello, just speak with the accent, and you're absolutely there. Who was the footballer who did a whole press conference speaking in a French accent because he had been signed to a French club. I'm going to look that up for you because it was very funny.

It's worth going back to see. Shout out for Sheffield. Before we give the shout out for Sheffield, Fee, what's happening in Sheffield later this month? Adopting very quick, upbeat, sell me something voice. May the 31st is part of the Crosswires Festival. We have Richard Coles on stage with us. It's going to be a game of two halves

with a lovely, probably quite liquid interval in the middle. And you can just type in Crosswise Festival and you will be able to find tickets and do come along. And if this is getting a bit repetitive, then buy a ticket. I'll stop repeating it every day. When we're full, I won't have to say it anymore. Great. So Melanie is written in, a.k.a. Editor Spice, as she calls herself.

She grew up in Sheffield. She's going home for the weekend to meet up with old school girlfriends who've known each other since 1977. Melanie says, what a great coincidence that you'll also be in town that weekend, Fee and Jane. For anyone who doesn't know,

I also grew up in Sheffield, so this is, I'm feeling it with this email. I didn't know that. Yeah. A little village outside Sheffield. Okay. Yes, about eight miles from sheffield so this is i'm i'm feeling it with this email i didn't know that yeah a little village outside sheffield okay about eight miles from sheffield tiny little pit village called spink hill it's not a pit village anymore it's very green belt and full of large cars and have they got a statue of you yet not yet named a bench after you god no not even a bench actually not even the one i used to sit smoking on naughtily I'm sure there'll be something in time to come

excellent I like that positivity possibly some gates that I can't get into crack on so Melanie says I lived the first five years of my life in a smaller block

oh sorry this is in reference to Standing at the Sky's Edge the amazing play that our colleague Jane Garvey has seen but I haven't sadly Melanie says I lived the first five years of my life in a smaller block of 1930s flats that our colleague Jane Garvey has seen, but I haven't, sadly. Melanie says, I lived the first five years of my life in a smaller block of 1930s flats

that was in the shadow of Park Hill, which is the iconic flats that the play is about. The show reflects my life in so many ways, she says. My parents were so like the first couple, as in everything went pear-shaped and my strong mum got me into a better environment. And I'm now one of the avocado eating southern dwelling waitrose clan you and me both Melanie but for all their troubled history without

those flats I wouldn't be where I am today because the complex included an outstanding nursery school that gave me a fantastic start in life I even wrote my first book there and I'm now a book editor and yes back in the 70s, the city's education department provided free ice skating lessons for junior school kids at Silver Blades Rink. That's where I also learnt to ice skate. But there was a lot of glue sniffing as well as ice, not by me, I hasten to add,

but it was a bit rough. It was above Bramall Lane, the Blades. She says it was great, but I blame my chunky thighs on that early exercise. I feel like that might also be my reason. Not genetics, just silver blades ice skating at the age of seven. Well, because you ice skated so much, both of you, that you've developed the chunk of thigh.

I mean, it's a reach. It is, because I've never ice skated and I've also got the chunk of thigh. Do you know what? I think the size of your thighs and your legs just so determines, as a woman, and this may well be the same for men, so please get in touch if it is, but it really determines from a very early age what you choose to go into and, well, what career you take. I think we're really conditioned on body shape, actually,

because there's a whole world that's not available to you if you're not the right kind of body shape as a child. And I've got a little theory about that making you, sometimes in very practical ways, stay in more and read more and be more introverted and perhaps more of an observer of life. And then there's a really kind of, there's a much more carefree teenage life available, isn't there,

to girls of a certain body shape. I always think this on beaches in particular. So I don't know whether that's just a fanciful theory that I've determined in myself. That's really interesting. I do know what you's really interesting I do know what you're saying I do know what you're saying um but I think I definitely have rugby players thighs unfortunately my brother got my mum's legs which are fantastic and I got my dad's legs and he actually was a rugby player um but I also did have a lot of fun as a teenager that said well it was interesting when I was on holiday last week and my friend

who I was with takes a wonderful picture. She's an interior designer, got a great eye. But I didn't let her take any pictures of me in my shorts. So she was only allowed to take pictures of me when I was wearing longer things. And that's terrible at the age of 46. It is, yeah. And nobody cares. I'm sure you've got a lovely leg, darling.

What has your brother gone into? What line of work is he in? He's a pilot. Is he a pilot? Yeah. He's got great legs, darling. What has your brother gone into? What line of work is he in? He's a pilot. Is he a pilot? Yeah. Well, he's got good legs. He's got great legs, yeah. Yeah.

He doesn't get them out enough while he's flying his 747. You have just bombed my theory absolutely out of the water with just one personal experience. I retire it forever. No, but I do think you're right. I think that the way

you think about yourself will affect, you know, and the things you might want to do. I do think, yeah. And it's places that you go. So, you know, I didn't do that big travelling thing when I was a teenager for lots of reasons. And, you know, I was at the kind of school where quite a lot of people were doing that. And a lot of things are to do with whether or not you want to stay inside and whether or not you want to remain fully clothed in your young adult life. I think maybe more than we realise.

But look, it's a very, it's an odd theory and the way that you're looking at me suggests that we may move on. We may move on quite quickly, dear listener. What bit of your body do you like the most? Oh, I really don't mind, really don't mind my hands at all. I've got my dad's knees. I mean, really have got my dad's knees. He's not using them.

No, no longer, sadly. But they didn't work very well, actually, in his own life. But they're terrible knees. They're really shocking. So, I mean, I wouldn't even wear shorts, let alone ask my friends not to photograph me in shorts. So, yeah. It's not a huge thing for me, actually.

I'm making it sound like it's a big thing, but I don't really care anymore. But my kids really, really laugh at my knees. They've got super legs, both of them. So they didn't get that. But Dad had lots of other things which he handed down. He had a wicked sense of humour and sometimes I liked to grasp at that.

And the stapler. And the stapler! Yes, the Rexel Matador. Thank you for mentioning it. Good stuff. Sam Davis is colourblind. Now we were talking about this because of the King Charles portrait. I'm fascinated by colourblindness.

Are you colourblind? no no so I always wonder what does that say about the way I dress that you were wondering no darling no but I wonder when the day is that you realize you're colorblind I mean in school presumably when you're learning your colours you're just thinking well that's green, that's my green when do you realise that it's not everybody else's green? and this will be explained to us but look Sam is chuckling as we talked about the new portrait of King Charles I have a rare form of colour blindness called acromatopsia

literally means without colour for those of us with the condition, the lack of colour in our lives is the least of our vision issues, but it's always the thing that other people are most interested in. We see in shades, think black and white TV, the only real difference is that we all see red as a really dark shade akin to black or brown. This means that I watched The Wizard of Oz several times with no idea there was a moment when it changed from black and white to colour. And I had no idea until a year ago

that Prince Harry had red hair. And when Fifty Shades of Grey came out, I was very disappointed. I mean, you're not the only one. Mostly it's not a major problem. Occasionally funny, my teenage self halfway up a climbing wall and a teacher suggesting I reach for the blue one.

My five-year-old promising me that the T-shirt I picked up for her brother wasn't pink. I knew she was fibbing. Sometimes the workaround can be interesting. When I went to uni, my mum lovingly labelled all my clothes, not with my name, but with their colour, and gave me a little book with what colours didn't go. Oh, that's lovely.

I bought a lot of black. It seemed to go with everything. And so did the painting. I really think the texture doesn't help. Because I see red as a really dark colour the texture makes it look like mud so it bears a striking resemblance to the bodies in the dead marshes in

Lord of the Rings. If you look too long those hands will grab you and pull you in. Blimey. And Sam says please say hello to the other members of the Blind Mums Drinking Club. Can we come along? Oh, that sounds excellent.

As it was through a suggestion in our chat that I began listening last year. Well, Sam, welcome aboard. Delighted to have you here. That's a lovely, lovely email. And also, just what a lovely thing for your mum to do, to label all your clothes and make sure that you're not going out in the wrong thing. Let's hear it for her. I love that.

Roz has written in. Hello, Fee and Jane. Listening to your thoughts on mismatched tattoos took me back to a dinner of four mums catching up on each other's families recently. It was hard to keep the incredulity off my face as one mum tried to put a positive spin on her daughter's first tattoo. Are you ready? She had a toucan on her daughter's first tattoo. Are you ready? She had a toucan

on her chest, just above her right breast. And on the left, wait for it, Anne Hathaway's cottage. Now that's got range. That's what I mean. I just, that's bizarre. It definitely shows an eclectic mind, doesn't it? It does, very much so. Very Catholic-tasting tattoos. And Hathaway's cottage. Roz, if you've got any more information on the background of that, I'd be fascinated. Yes, very much so.

Yes, just a drawing or something like that would be fantastic too. Can I just alert you to who's going to come up as our guest today uh it's going to be hillary brat who is a fabulous traveler and part of a duo that started brat guides the world's largest independently owned guidebook company jane did an interview with her about her memoir taking the risk there is an irony in jane garvey doing an interview with a very very int, Taking the Risk. There is an irony in Jane Garvey doing an interview with a very, very intrepid explorer, so it's worth listening to it. I would just like to give a little shout-out to Caroline,

one of our listeners in Australia. She's in Perth, Western Australia, where she says, it's very sunny and strangely globally warm. She's just been listening to you and I talking about visualising everyone dog-walking while listening to the podcast so she wanted to send us a quick shot of Koji her adorable Kelpie I love Kelpies, they're Australian sheepdogs

and one of my best friends in New York had a lovely Kelpie Rosie, so this is a little picture of Koji, who's brown Kelpie and you can see Perth in the background, look the skyline of Perth, it's beautiful she says she can no longer hold him back as her now healed half knee replacement beautiful she says she can no longer hold him back as her now healed half knee replacement

is only she's no longer holding him back as her now healed half knee replacement is allowing pain free movement congratulations Caroline she says

keep up the great work my walks would not be the same without you well big love to you and to Koji and thank you so much for sending that picture Koji looks wonderful

and very happy with a frisbee there I bet yep how do those big dogs cope in new york i mean an australian sheep dog is is a big dog that needs a lot of exercise yeah rosie uh my friend's dog she was a sort of medium-sized kelpie she was a rescue so um she coped really well in new york actually because it's very good for dog parks there are a lot of dog parks in new york um and my friends used friends used to live on the west side of Manhattan,

and so she had a lot of great places to play. She used to walk around a lot. They've just got a new puppy, actually, another Kelpie. They're back in Sydney now. So, yeah, the new Kelpie puppy is extremely naughty. She's very cute. Good. Yeah.

You like a naughty puppy. Right, just one more on colour blindness from me. Rachel is listening in Somerset and tells us that her husband is red-green colour blind and really does miss out on some things. For example, we have Virginia Creeper all over the front of the house and in the autumn it turns from bright green to a glorious dark red. He can't see it at all. He was just being naughty, however, when a friend wearing a red and green dress asked what he saw when he looked at it and he said, what dress?

They do the same to you. Cheeky, he really was. So we only managed one day of colour coordination, didn't we? We both came in in red yesterday and Jane is wearing a very, very, very fetching dark green today. But I've gone a little bit denim. Yeah, you've gone kind of low-key exec. Whereas I've dressed again like a Christmas tree.

No, you always look very smart. Thank you very much. I saw you striding across the cafeteria when I was very new to Times Radio. And it was in the summer, must have been late summer, and you were wearing quite a short linen playsuit with some very bright pink suede mules. And I just thought, what a woman.

Just what an outfit to come to work in. Absolutely brilliant. I love a play suit, actually. I've got about four in different shades of beige. I just think they're very practical. You know, you could change the oil, fly a plane, go to work at the Times in one. Yeah, why not?

Put everything in your pockets. It's great. Yeah. And I like the fact that playsuits and jumpsuits have just become everyday workwear for women. Yes, I agree. I like dressing like a quick fit fitter as often as possible. And I really like the zip. Yeah.

I love the zip. Yeah. A joop. Yeah. It's utilitarian and shove everything in your pockets. One thing on. That's what I like, is putting one thing on. Well, darling, I'm wearing pants underneath.

Are you? Let's not go there. We've already talked about that. Never go there. Let's not go underwear today. I'm just going to give you a little compliment here via one of our listeners. Nafisa has written in for you to say,

I've been meaning to tell you this for some time. I really enjoy all your interviews. You have such a calm, collective way of interviewing. Your delivery is not rushed. Your questions are informed and calculated. You breathe during your interviews. I find most interviews rushed, interviews breathless and so anxious. Thank you.

Well, that is very, very kind. And Nafisa, I think you're coming to see, I'm hoping you're coming to see us in Sheffield, actually. Thank you for taking the time to do that. Some of my interview questions are alarmingly rambling and they're a bit like trying to reverse out of a cul-de-sac. So I take the compliment, but I would also say still work to be done there

quite a lot of the time. You've got a tiny blush on. You've got a tiny blush on right now. I really enjoyed talking to Jonathan Dimbleby yesterday. What an amazing guy. Really, really amazing guy and he doesn't he doesn't look his age at all and I think we're

allowed to say that, aren't we, about men because it's always been said about women. But I really, I thought he was very thoughtful. And his book is such a tome. And I don't know about you, but military history is not really my go-to, actually, in terms of reading. But I really enjoyed his book

because it's got this incredible dipping into personal accounts, which just more and more we need to hear, don't we, from war. And I think some of the... I hope that a lot of the recordings that now come from the trenches in the Ukraine war are kept, because there's something about the written word, isn't there, which is easy to store, to be made available. You know, know years down the line somebody like Jonathan Dimbleby can find it and put it in a book and you just sometimes think with the amount of stuff that we record just on cameras

whether or not that will ever get downloaded ever get formally stored and somehow the more visual imagery we have and the easier it is to record personal experience, the less we seem to really savour it, actually, and respect it. So that's my pompous little note for today. Do you have another one, or do you want to save one until the end after we've done the... Yes? OK. Delay gratification. Good Lord. I don't know what that means. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen.

VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11.

And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. and get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. In 1973, Hilary Bratt and her then-husband were chasing a rumour that near the border of Ecuador and Peru there was a hidden trail. After days of getting lost, the couple trekked the trails entirely before hopping aboard a river barge in the Amazon

to scribble a detailed account of the route. the couple trekked the trails entirely before hopping aboard a river barge in the Amazon to scribble a detailed account of the route. These handwritten notes became the first ever published description of travelling the full Inca Trail in English and the start of Brat Guides, the world's largest independently owned guidebook company. Now, Hilary is now 82 but is showing no signs of slowing down, as you'll hear in this interview, and she came in to speak to Jane about her memoir called Taking the Risk. Jane put it to Hilary that a lot of young people are travelling South America these days, so she asked Hilary what the traditional experience was

when she was growing up. I suppose it was Europe. I mean, mostly we stayed in Britain because I was a teenager in the 1950s. I started travelling in 1960. My first trip was to Greece. And that was utterly third world. I mean, it was like South America would be these days,

actually even more primitive, I think, which made it wonderful. How did you get to Greece? We took a train. It was rented. which made it wonderful. How did you get to Greece? We took a train. It was rented. A chap called Brian Hughes, who was an Oxford, I think an Oxford undergraduate, used to book entire railway carriages.

He was a great entrepreneur. And there were six of us, and we would sleep. We'd sit up like ordinary people during the day, and then at night we would sleep on the luggage on the floor, on the seats, if we were lucky, or in the luggage rack. And the luggage rack was quite uncomfortable. But when you're young, you can do it. And Greece, as you say, was not as developed as it is now as a tourist destination. Did your family want you to go to Greece on a train?

How did they react to this? Well, remember that the next year I was hitchhiking there. So they were pleased, actually. I was very lucky. I never had parents who said, take care. And I think that's quite important. I mean, my book is called Taking the Risk. And I was brought up that taking a risk was a normal thing and so

I don't remember them doing anything but be encouraging. That's really interesting because I was going to ask you obviously about women travelling and specifically hitchhiking and travelling alone. Has it ever been in your mind that you needed to be a little wary yes i i think it's important to say that i'm not particularly um i was going to say i'm not particularly courageous but actually i would dispute that well because i do feel afraid and and you know that the slogan is feel the fear and do it anyway so the excitement of travel is stronger than the fear of being alone and perhaps in risky places so it's never stopped me but it certainly increased my heartbeat a bit and and had me quite anxious at times what has been your your hairiest experience would you you say? Nothing too awful.

You know, I haven't been raped. What can I just say? I mean, that is really important to say. Of course you shouldn't have been. But I suppose that actually was what I was asking you. Yeah, I think, you know, it was... We were much more phlegmatic about men men getting fresh and there are quotes around that it's we expected it it happened it happened a lot i was traveling the hitchhiking was with a girlfriend i

have hitchhiked alone but it's much obviously much better with a girlfriend even better with a boyfriend or a husband why why is it is it better? Because it's safer. Because it's safer, because it's more fun, because if something bad happens, you share the... I mean, you know, there are stories where going through Italy, the Italians were dreadful in the 60s. I'm sure they're lovely now, but they were very fresh. And, you know, we were absolutely determined to get to Rome,

my friend and i and female friend sorry a female female friend and this man was getting very excited and um we were trying to distract him by reading all the billboards beside the road oh look look oh there's a and so he stopped what he was thinking of doing and have a look. And then the other one would say, oh, and there's one. And we just made it there. Although I don't know if this is suitable for time readers, but there was one point when Val said, oh, my God, he's got it out. But I'll elaborate no further.

Well, you can. I mean, I should say that this is a podcast and we are allowed to be pretty frank. And it's a conversation that adults will listen to um so he exposed himself basically he exposed himself but um we got to rome he wasn't actually dangerous he was just silly well that's your inter i think that's can i say a generous interpretation and i think it's an illustration of your approach to life, which is pretty positive. And your spirits are quite hard to dim. I get the impression. Can we just go right back to your very first trip to a country that I must confess always sounds impossibly exotic to me, Colombia. Now, do you remember your first trip there? Who did you go with? What year was it? I remember it very well. My first trip there was on my own. And by golly,

I was nervous. I hadn't meant to go on my own, but my flatmate in San Francisco decided at the last minute not to come. And I got to Colombia and it was actually an enormously friendly country. I mean, I was on my own. I spoke almost no Spanish. I had a real burning desire at that point to get to Peru and see the Incas, but I was going over land. And I think one of my strongest memories

is taking a train up from the coast. And this young man who I realised had had polio and had callipers on his legs and was on crutches. He was about 17, I think, 16. And he was so friendly and he came along and he spoke some English. And so we talked a bit. And to cut a long story short I ended up

staying with his family and they were absolutely lovely they were quite poor they I remember we had potatoes three times a day sometimes with a bit of meat um there was I think four children and they all piled into the same bedroom so I could have a room to myself. And my entertainment value was very, very high. And therefore, you know, I have learned that actually we shouldn't feel guilty about accepting hospitality as long as we can give something in return. And I learned, I hadn't realized this, what I'd learned.

I'd learned quite a rude expression for go away, which stood me in great stead, and they loved it when I said that. What's so fascinating about the book is that you do, on the whole, I have to say, only encounter, apart from the horrible men, and there are some, incredible hospitality and friendliness with people curious about you, but not in an unpleasant way. And in fact, all too eager to invite you into their homes. There's something magical about it, actually. Well, it's magical traveling as a woman alone, quite honestly.

And people are perhaps unnecessarily nervous about it. It is anxious making, but certainly in South America and certainly in the early 70s and probably now, you're seen as vulnerable and not vulnerable and therefore worthy of attack, but vulnerable and worthy of protection. And I think we as women travellers can play up to that, quite honestly. And, you know, I can be strong and determined if I need to be, but I can be not helpless, but, oh gosh, you're so kind, you know, this is, I really need your help. Okay, so that's just a tactic, just, you can just embrace it slightly

and benefit from the plus side of being a lone woman, because there are some benefits, clearly. Yes, yes. Yeah, okay. It's not even a tactic, it was the way I I felt but it's it's useful have you any ever been somewhere that frankly really disappointed you probably Egypt that first trip and I must what year was that that was 1976 and it was at the end of an 11 month 11 month trip and I've been back since and absolutely loved it so you know anyone who gets upset at hearing this that was then we were very tired and the Egyptians were so assertive aggressive you

know they were coming through the train windows, and they were just annoying. And we were tired. And I mean, this sounds unbelievable. But my husband, George took to carrying a stick to beat them off because they were so persistent. And I know that sounds terrible. But you know, we were just pretty fed up by that point. Yeah, it happened. And we need to hear your experience. Something else I wanted to ask you about was the obvious question about whether travel has in fact ruined destinations. The Galapagos Islands are a destination that you've been to quite a few times, I think. Just for a start, just where are they?

So everybody's absolutely certain whereabouts in the world we're talking about. Okay, so the Galapagos are off the coast of Ecuador, quite a way off. They're volcanic islands that emerge from the sea, so we're never connected to the mainland. So we've evolved the most extraordinary wildlife. And I was there in 1973. And it was absolute paradise. But it was paradise looking to be spoiled because there were no restrictions on tourists. And we were well behaved. We knew how to respect the wildlife.

were well behaved, we knew how to respect the wildlife. Wherever we went, we were careful not to upset the wildlife. But only the following year, they brought in restrictions. And thank goodness they did. You know, it's tourism doesn't spoil a place if the authorities deal with the potential threat before it happens. And if a place is more unusual, I mean, the obvious thing is to try and get off the beaten track. You know, I don't know why everyone is so sheep-like. They all want to go to the famous places, tick off the famous places. And the world is still an enormous place. There's so many places you can go where you're

benefiting the people by helping the local economy benefiting wildlife by supporting conservation so you know i'm obviously biased because i publish guidebooks but i don't think tourism damages a country unless we let it you are also very clear that you should never, ever judge a country or its people by its government. And you've written guidebooks to some pretty, frankly, unpleasant places, if I were to judge it by its government. It's a very good point. And I describe in the book how we were in Chile

just after the overthrow of Allende, planning just to travel quickly through Chile and get the hell out of there because we were quite nervous. I mean, it was sandbags everywhere. We saw someone shot in the street. It was not... Well, we should just explain. He was replaced by? By Pinochet.

But, and this is a big but, people were coming up to us in the street and saying, we are so pleased that Allende has gone. You foreigners have no idea what it was like for us during his latter years. And he was a hero to many, wasn't he? He was a hero. They kept trotting out the democratically elected government. But someone said to me, well, you know, I voted for Allende

because I thought we needed change. But we didn't expect the rigours of life under what was basically a communist regime. And so this, and because we're hitchhiking and meeting a lot of people, talking to a lot of people, it completely changed my mind about being open to what the local people feel not what the newspapers say sure although at this point i do have to add that i don't think general pinnishay was a pleasant man he did some truly hideous things people were in prison without trial torture was going on i mean all sorts of horrible things happened i'm just saying that to so that we don't get lots of emails from people saying, you have no idea. But it's a good point that those of us who do read the Times,

for example, might have one view of things, but it doesn't always mean that it's what's felt on the ground by the people there. And you're absolutely right about Pinochet, and I too am very aware of the criticism I could get. And I do say he's not the first tyrant to be greeted as a saviour. No. And he won't be the last.

And I think that's it. And the first few months, people thought it was wonderful and very quickly they realised what was going on. And of course, I don't defend what was going on later. No, I'm sure, obviously, you don't. But we just need to say that, I think. The guides that your company has produced to countries like North Korea, I mean, seriously, how do you do that?

How is it possible to write a travel guide to North Korea? Well, I've been to North Korea as a tourist. I didn't write the guide. When did you go? I went in 2016. And it was absolutely fascinating. Even the boredom was fascinating. The author had to write under a pseudonym.

He obviously couldn't say that he was writing a guidebook. But it's a very useful thing to do. You know, the history, it's as balanced as it could be, I think, the book. You know, it reports both sides of the argument, so to speak. It's important that people do go to places like that. You know, I wouldn't have missed it for the world. What did you see there, Hilary? Factories.

So you went on an official tour? Oh, yeah. I mean, it it's as people probably know you you can never be without your minder you can't leave the hotel in the evenings you are obviously always hearing the party line but our minders were delightful they were funny they were smiley the army was smile I mean, who would have thought that? And it was, they treated us very well. And we did get a bit of a chance to talk to local people. They had a beer festival of all things. And they could carry these big things of beer,

like at the Munich Beer Festival, beautifully. And we did get a chance to talk to some local people who speak English obviously you don't talk about politics um and we took a lot of bus trips all over the country and so we saw a lot and I can't say I can't say everything's wonderful there but I wouldn't want to agree that absolutely 100% ghastly you know it was fascinating. And for people who are planning, for example, a trip as intrepid as some of yours, perhaps a solo backpacking holiday, somewhere in South America or Asia, possibly, what are your travel essentials, the bits of kit you should never leave home without? Dental floss and a strong needle. Dental floss, not for your teeth, but it's excellent for repairing things.

And so I've repaired boots of dental floss with my tent with dental floss, everything dental floss. I don't understand how you repair a tent with dental floss. Tell me. Well, you know, if it's got a tear in it, you can stitch it up. You do need a selection of strong needles. OK, right. Yeah, surely things like plasters?

Yes, oh, yes, yes, and diarrhea pills and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that kind of goes without saying. A really good novel, you know, and swap them with other travellers on the way because when the bus breaks down, which they probably do less now, you need something good to read for the few hours that you're stuck there. Now, astonishingly, I believe you are 82. Is that, I do genuinely find that extremely hard to believe. Oh, I find it quite easy. Do you not, do you just don't want to acknowledge it? No, no, I love acknowledging it, but I'm quite creaky now. Well you just don't want to acknowledge it no no i love acknowledging it but i'm quite

creaky now well you don't absolutely do not look it and um i wonder whether i mean have you got any big trips planned where are you going in the next couple of months well actually i hope i'm going to an exeter hospital to have my hip replaced and then i'll be able to do anything but before this and that this does sound a bit stupid for someone with an arthritic hip I'm going to Greece to run in the Nemean Games because the Nemean Games happen every four years to coincide with the Olympics and it's open to all everyone whether they can run or walk or whatever. And it's wonderful. You have to dress in a traditional Greek toga. It's run in the ancient capital, the Namir, the Namir Stadium.

And I'm not going to miss it. I shall dope myself up and do it. Okay, I'm not your Dr. Hillary. And I suspect if I was, you wouldn't pay any attention to me. But good luck with that. I'm glad that you acknowledge that perhaps it's not the most sensible thing you've ever done. Just before we go, and there's so much you could talk about, I just want you to describe the mating dance of the blue-footed booby.

Because this is something you have witnessed, isn't it? It is. Whereabouts in the world do we find the blue-footed booby? I mean, that was the Galapagos before restrictions. And we were able to go to a place called Daphne Major, which is an extinct volcano with a broad sandy base to the crater. And it was absolutely full of blue-footed boobies doing their mating dance. And I really need to do it visually, but I won't. Because you're on film as well, so you can show me. Well, anyway, it's this and they've got these beautiful blue feet

and they're webbed on all four fingers. Yeah, so they lift up a foot in turn. And they lift them up and they're all different shades of blue and then they point their bill at the sky and they go, a little whistle, I won't whistle because it probably won't come out, and then they tuck their head into their chest and then they maybe pick up a twig, which is a little bit of nest building thing, and give it to their mate. And their mate says, oh, that's absolutely lovely. Thank you so much.

And put it on the ground because they just nest on the ground. So it is one of the wonderful wildlife sites that you can never see. Unfortunately, you can still see it in the Galapagos because tourists are properly controlled there and yet all these experiences are open to them. Hilary Bratt in conversation with Lady Jane Garvey. Her book is called Taking the Risk, My Adventures in Travel and Publishing and it's out now.

Final email? Yeah, it's a punchy, pithy one to finish with. Thank you, Chris, for this extremely well-put, poignant and optimistic, in a way, email about waxing. She says, Brilliant. So much to live for. as at the age of 70, most of it has disappeared. My grandchildren, she says, know me as sweary nanny. No explanation needed. Brilliant. So much to live for.

It's Jane and P at Timestop Radio. If you'd like to contribute. If an election's been called, then I really hope it's a suitable day in your diary. It doesn't clash with the village fate, with those pesky kids doing all kinds of things, let loose after their exams, or the family holiday that you booked ages ago,

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