Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Scrunch, fold or flatten? (with Janet Street-Porter)

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

There’s no judgement to be had on a deserted beach, but there’s plenty to be had on this podcast… Jane and Fi chat about topless men, 'Fifty Shades of Grey', gilets, and loo roll formation. Plus, journalist and broadcaster Janet Street-Porter reflects on her career ahead of her upcoming tour 'Off the Leash'. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki If you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/ And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] The next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We were treated to lots of pictures of Prince George who's been 12. Oh yes, he's 12. Yep, and there were some lovely photographs that have come out of the royal household. But he's wearing a gilet. He's only 12 and he's in a gilet. Gosh, he won't be far off the old beard oil, is he? He's grown up. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep, the one and only. Washington DC is the city for sightseeing,

museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park. Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf. The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these things.

There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast, we're chatting to the secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Lonnie G. Bunch, who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash wdc. Very briefly, a quick mention to Louise who says Tallow is called Tallow in the UK. Lard is pig fat and dripping is beef fat. I'm going to work now, she says. Well, have a

good day at work. Lard is pig fat and dripping is beef fat. I did not know that. Didn't know that. This is at the back of an interview we did on the live radio show. Yeah, but I thought lard was... isn't trex vegan? Because when I heard a vegan in the household I used to cook with trex occasionally. Isn't that... I thought that was lard. Okay, this is Off Air with Jane and Fee. No, I think lard's always come from an animal. Yeah, so what's trex? I think it's probably just scrapings of vegan earwax. I'm sure you could cook with earwax. Sorry. Perfectly horrible.

I'm very sorry. We were talking about Tallow though because it's part of the menu in Elon Musk's new drive-in with robots Tesla facility somewhere in America which just sounds shit. Let's move on. Colorful Houses comes in from Marion Mackie Mackay. You take your pick. I love listening to the podcast. I discovered it about a year ago. I'm a first-time emailer. I love that. It was actually the first time we've managed to do it, just calmly. Yeah, but you could have driven quite a large, heavy vehicle through that gap. No, I think that was perfectly fine.

I think that was a times radio gap. It wasn't as long as the Radio 4 pause. Regarding the picture of the emailer, regarding the picture the emailer from Switzerland sent you, a row of coloured houses you thought might be Tobermory. There's a row of coloured houses similar to those in Tobermory in Portree, on the Isle of Skye. I'm currently on holiday on the beautiful Isle of Harris and stopped there on the journey up here. I've attached a picture of a Harris beach. I always love to see a picture of a beach the very first thing in the morning, especially those beaches that just have nobody on them ever. It's like car adverts, they have no cars on the roads

ever. I've got a friend who's currently on holiday in New Zealand and she's been posting some very inviting images of, you're right, totally deserted beaches. But would you like to spend a day on a totally deserted beach? No, because it would be creepy. Yes, I agree. So when they sell you that picture of, you know, this is, it'd just be you and a wafting trade wind. Nobody wants those. No, you want the waft of chips. Yeah, and you want lots of people to look at. Oh, look at them. Oh dear, they can't control their children, can they?

Actually, you're right. There's no judgement to be had. You can stick your deserted beaches. We want to be packed in like sardines. He's going to get sunburn soon. I like a tankini. Can I wear a tankini? That's the kind of internal conversation that keeps us alive on holiday. But there must be somebody somewhere who enjoys a deserted beach. I think it's perfectly alright for walking along, but you're right, you don't want to spend the day on a creepy deserted beach.

Anything could happen. Do you want to do one? Oh thank you. Well you could have put that a little bit more. I think it's probably crossed her mind a few times over the years. Lucy says, I'm always on a time delay I live in deaf and... That's not that far love. She says, I only get to catch up with what you've been talking about on a weekend, but I've heard Fee talking recently about topless men. Yes, don't like them. Put it away. Well, Lucy says that she works in a double-fronted independent opticians. Ooh!

So she has the opportunity to see a wide variety of life going by. Can I just say, that must be very, very confusing for people who are going there with desperately poor eyesight. What, because, oh yeah, I see it. Is it one entrance, am I seeing double? Really quite a risk of offending people today. Today? Yeah, or most days. Let's go back to Lucy's interesting life in that double-fronted

independent opticians. We've had some pretty decent weather for a while, she says, interspersed with torrential rain. It is, after all, Devon. I'm internally pissed off by men thinking it's OK to walk around with their tops off, fit or not. I just don't want to see it in the high street, at the pub or picking their kids up from school. Beach or pool is fine, but otherwise absolutely not. Picking your kids up from school without a top on? That's just ridiculous. That's terrible. I tell you what, society's frayed around the edges, isn't it?

I mean, am I wrong in thinking that I'm with you here? I think it's just a bit unseemly to go to the school pick up with no shirt on. Imagine if we did that Jane. In other news my daughter 20 says Lucy is about to buy her first property. Wow! Two hours away from where I live. When I moved to Devon away from my own mum I made my daughter promise she wouldn't do the same thing to me and it was such a wrench. So I guess that's karma, says Lucy." Well, yes, I suppose it is. I'm sorry to hear in some ways that your daughter is moving two hours away from Devon. But on the other hand, she's 20 and she's on the property ladder. So no mean feat. We're not quite sure how she's achieved it, but we wish her the very best of luck. And I mean, tell us more about life that processes outside your double-fronted independent opticians.

There is something about, I had a, my first house was in Worcester when I worked there, and it was such a sweet house, I often think about it. It was like a drawing of a house. So it had a front door, and it was tiny, but it had two windows either side and then two at the top. Lovely. And it was it was it was like everybody's fairy tale dream of a little house. Pleasingly symmetrical. Exactly that yeah yeah and it was I've often think I wonder who's living there now. Well you could go and knock and ask couldn't you and say do you realize who I am? I used to live here, we've got room for my plaque. Do you think there could be a... Oh I live here. We've got room for my plaque.

Do you think there could be a... Oh, I'm sure one day there'll be a plaque. Which house would you put it on? Would you put it on that one? Yes, I suppose so. Oh, that's interesting. I had some great thoughts in that house. But you've lived most of your... Mainly that I'd like to go to London.

Adult life, yeah, in East West Kensington. Yes, you're right. But I don't see myself as someone who's currently living in East West London, even though my colleague is completely spot on. That is where I've spent most of my adult life. I think it'd be about 30 years. 25 actually. 25. Yeah, so get it right.

Right, it's still time to move. I'm writing on a sunny morning from my holidays in the Polish equivalent of the Lake District. The area is called Missouri in Polish. I moved to Edinburgh after finishing my university course in Poland, planning to stay for a couple of months and on Monday I will have marked 20 years of living in the Scottish capital and I cannot imagine living anywhere else. This comes in from Ola. Now, Ola has just heard about the lady writing to you from Scotland. Whilst I can't take away any of her angst of being replaced by AI, I would like her to reach out to the national organisation that I work for, Skills Development Scotland.

We provide free, confidential, and impartial career advice and guidance to Scottish residents of all ages. I'm a career advisor, and I work for the organisation's helpline. I believe there is an equivalent service in England. So, Eula, thank you very much indeed for sending us this. I would really like to hear a bit more from you about whether or not you have to now factor in AI when you are talking to people about their desired career change or career opportunities

and what you're basing all of that on. Because presumably there must be so many jobs that literally this time last year you might have recommended to somebody based on their skills and experience which now you probably shouldn't be because they will be jobs that aren't long for this world so you don't want to put somebody into position or get them to retrain if they are just going to be replaced by a button in future. just going to be replaced by a button in future. So if you've got time then pop back in and give us your thoughts on that. It would be interesting to hear. I think it would be really interesting too to hear from school careers teachers.

Definitely because they were always so helpful. Well not always, but it must be very difficult at the moment to be in that role when we are, let's be honest, people will probably, I mean, let's say they do listen to this again in a decade. I mean, it's a big leap, but you never know. We are on the cusp of such great change in terms of the way we work and the way the world operates. And, you know, I've listened to conversations between very, very capable and intellectual people, men, who talk about how we're not far away from a state where on this planet the tech companies

have much, much more power than any single nation state. Oh, definitely. So in fact, we could well end up being governed by these organisations. Totally, totally. And if you simply look in the Western world at the figures, the number of people who access social media and participate on social media by comparison to the number of people who vote or join a political party, it has just tipped exponentially and I can't see that it would ever tip back. So I completely agree with you. And somebody, very clever and informed and you're

absolutely right, probably a man, did a really brilliant piece about the terms and conditions that you're signing up to when you join anything to do with some of these tech companies. So the prime example, every pun intended, is Amazon where you're giving Jeff Bezos rights on is Amazon where you're giving Jeff Bezos rights on Jupiter, Mars or whatever it is, any place outside of this planet because Amazon sees itself as being so powerful in the future. So what have we already signed up to and allowed access to that no political party, I mean, you know, democracy is a joyful thing. You can get rid of people when they don't do very well. We can't get rid of the tech companies even though in many cases they're not doing very well. That reminds me, Donald Trump is coming to the UK.

He is, isn't he? He's going to Scotland? Tomorrow to inspect his golf courses. He's got nothing going on at home, so that's absolutely fine. It's an ideal time to pop over to Scotland when it's so quiet in Washington and he can inspect his courses. So interesting times. We keep being told, or I keep hearing again other informed folk, more informed than me, saying that the Jeffrey Epstein thing won't finish him off but it's looking less, I can't be as certain about that or I don't think they could be as certain about that as they might have been a couple of weeks ago. I don't know.

Do you think this could be the beginning of the end for the man? I think it would entirely depend on what evidence people who are accusing Donald Trump of very heavy involvement in Jeffrey Epstein's business and parties and terrible islands and stuff. I think if there's really firm evidence that can be circulated and will be circulated all around the world, because the picture tells a thousand stories, then I think it could really do for him. Within the MAGA movement, that very solid base of faith-based people, I think, are definitely struggling already with the notion that he might be involved in what you don't have to have faith to believe to be some of the worst things that a man can do

on the planet. So I suppose if that gets shaken then does it does it fall apart? But I don't know, Jane, because men have survived worse allegations than this actually and carried on in public office. There's been quite a lot of documentary evidence of previous incumbents of high office, which hasn't necessarily brought people down. So I honestly don't know. But I do wonder whether the evidence is there, because surely it would have surfaced before. Is that just me being naive? Do I not understand the kind of conspiratorial nature of it all?

You've just put biro down your chin. Oh have I? I think because I want to try the King's beard oil, I think I'm trying to draw a beard on my face. You've put face assessment just there. Oh lovely, okay. I'll go to the lavatory afterwards and attend to this. Okay. I don't pretend. We've never understood in this country the link between evangelical Christianity and the despicable Donald Trump. Why on earth, if you're a person, whether you're a Christian or not, I understand that the tenets of the religion are treat other people in the way you'd like to be treated yourself. There's a lot of decency and kindness in the Christian message.

Kindness and humility and reaching out of your community. All of that is mind boggling, isn't it? How do you go from that to him? We don't understand. It's impossible for us to understand this. So anyway, there we go. Interesting times. Yeah. Can I just say on the subject of careers advisors,

I just want to row back on my facetious comment about them not being very good, but there are just so many examples, I think think from our generation of an underwhelming ambition certainly for women that sometimes did come from careers advisors so apologies for that but it would be really interesting to hear from people who are in that position at the moment as to whether or not you feel you need to be very realistic which is quite depressing about the job market for certainly entry level jobs at the moment or whether you feel that because we don't really know what is coming around the corner. You think it's part of your job to be really optimistic with your children. They're still kids when they're at school and therefore you know you hope to send them out into the world without this

kind of doom laden head on them. So yes, any experience has gratefully received Jane of Thee at Time Stop Radio. And as the school holidays are underway, certainly in Scotland and indeed elsewhere now in the country, the whole business around keeping your teens off their phones. When I went on holiday with my girls last week, the week before last, whenever it was, I mean, you suddenly then when you're all together, you just remember, God, they're always on their phones. Put your phones down. I'm still saying that now. And it does become a bit of a drag, if I'm honest. And you then slightly hate the way the world has become because you think,

what's happening to us all? You'd be in the breakfast table or out for dinner in the evening and everyone just had their phones on the table. And this is people on holiday for God's sake. I mean, unless you are literally a government minister or a high-flying surgeon who needs to be contacted at any moment or you have a sick relative at home or something, do you actually need it with you all the time? No. But I take it with me all the time. But I take it with me all the time. And whether many books passed around and read, how many books did you manage to do? We did read, I mean my elder child is a good reader. She read I think three or four books and I probably read three books. The younger one not so much. She continues to delight us but not necessarily a literary person.

Yeah, I mean one of the things I love about holidays where you go and stay in a holiday home is that shelf of books, you know, the books that have been left by the people who've holidayed there before. Slightly crimpy, Dick Francis. Slightly crimpy, always a Joanna Trollope that is barely touched because it's such a page turner, it's just been leafed through very quickly. Or someone's bought it and not read it. I don't know. I used to...

I loved Joanna Tulloch. I was going to say, I read a few of her. What was the really good one? The Rector's Wife was the first one, wasn't it? Yeah, I know. I mean, I would be of the former. I would read that so quickly on holiday, it would look like it was new. But we've really noticed over the last couple of holidays that we've been on, those shelves aren't there anymore. There's no books.

And I don't know whether that's a kind of hygiene thing or an Airbnb thing or, oh, I don't know, everyone got a bit paranoid after COVID. Or actually it's just because, you know, the book thing on holiday is not so much of a thing anymore. Did you get COVID off a dick, Fran? COVID off a Dick Francis question. Stop it. Well, I don't know. But there's always a book in that shelf that somebody, a really ambitious book, that somebody has brought on holiday like Dante's Inferno thinking this is the year I'll read this. I'll do it this time.

And it's always left, isn't it? A Jeffrey Archer? No, we, well, you've done some thoroughly engaging interviews with Sir Geoffrey. Former jailbird. He's Lord now, isn't he? He's a Lord. Yeah. Funny enough, that's not how he likes to be styled.

Isn't that odd? Isn't that odd? I don't like him because you made me cry once. Oh yeah, I know. Well, you have every reason. It's funny actually, the number of people I meet who've got a similar story. Louise Minchin had a similar time with him. There's more than one of us who's been reduced to tears by Geoffrey Archer.

Send us, if you do get to a holiday property that does have an inviting little shelf of holiday reeds. Send us a pic. Send us a pic. We'd like to know what's currently circulating. 50 Shades of Grey was put in a shift, isn't it, in Holiday Let's? I think ideal for the couple that wanted to spice things up by the sea. Or not. OK.

Terrible book. Nice woman. Terrible book. OK. Becky says, right, are you ready? Because this email is called... Eve's going on holiday so I think... I slightly suspect that she's been on a holiday for most of the week, but anyway... This is the title of this email. Get the jingle ready.

Right. Jane and Fee, long-time listener, first-time emailer. Long-time listener,, first time emailer. Long time listener, first time emailer. I feel guilty now because Eve's actually helped me with my out of office work emails. I think she's put in a shift this week actually, Jane. What? She has. Becky says, what has prompted me to get in touch? Well, there have been many things that have peaked my antenna while I've been listening. But she says I had twins in the March of 2023 and that has meant my time has been very limited. Can I just say you don't have to apologize for not making

contact in any circumstances. But if you had two twins, two twins, if you had twins two years ago, don't don't don't apologize for not emailing a daft podcast, we understand why you haven't. She says, the many discussions you've had about pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, child rearing, relationships have caused me to give some thought to what I might say to you if I had a moment to do it. I'm sure I had some very profound thoughts on Emma Barnett's interview and that concept of maternity service. My own experience was tinged with depression and I can't say I was able to really enjoy it at all. Well I'm sorry to hear that Becky, I mean people who think maternity leave

service is a barrel of laughs and easy peasy and just lots of coffee with your mates, they've not done it. So we're with you, we understand how challenging it can be. Don't give yourself a hard time for perhaps not, quote, enjoying it as much as you think other people might have done. It's not any of that, she says, that has made me contact you. It's that discussion about Katzbaum toilet paper dispensers. Excellent. I manage a visitor centre for the RSPB. What a lovely job and how interesting. And I have had them installed in the place that I currently manage as well as at a previous centre. Now they do reduce toilet paper consumption so they're a good thing for an organisation like the RSPB where we try to minimise our impact on the

environment. When Fee discussed the dispenser and whether to straighten or scrunch it did make me pause to think, why wouldn't you carefully flatten each piece and then fold? Well obviously some people are but I'm scrunching. I mean I'm sorry about this. It probably says something terrible about my personality but I'm I'm scrunching into a big ball. Right, Fee the scruncher, Self-confessed. Jane the flattener. Becky says, I currently only ever share a toilet cubicle with two two-year-olds. So I haven't witnessed anybody else using one of these dispensers. Well, that's the thing you don't on the whole, do you?

No, that's why we have to air it here. Yeah. So maybe there are plenty of visitors who scrunch and that may well use more paper. I'm relying on there being sufficient flatteners to ensure that our toilet paper consumption remains lower than with a conventional dispenser. I'm now also aware that not everyone sits there carefully flattening out the loo paper. Becky, thank you and I'm so glad that we bring you well a kind of comfort with our ramblings and we really appreciate your involvement and honestly, just so much respect for, I mean this, for anyone who has twins because honestly, it's a tough one. Yeah, that would be. I didn't have twins but I can only imagine. I would say also with

the maternity leave thing, if it doesn't have particularly happy memories in it just park it, just park it. It does not have to inform your future child care or future maternity leaves or whatever. I think it's one of those points in your life where you're allowed to go that was a little bit shite at times. We're just going to leave it there. It doesn't bear too much over scrutiny, would you agree? It's good to share it, but you can't go back and beat yourself up about things that didn't kind of go right in it, or you could have done it better. Or I remember there was a terrible day where one of those news stories came out about how a front-facing buggy might impede your child's development because the child in the buggy should always be looking at you and I just remember thinking, what more? I can't do anymore. You know,

it'll be fine. Look at the world. Stop looking at me. All of that. This is in from Tonya who says I've been using one of these for three years now, it's wonderful. It's a four foot six inch deep comfortable direct bolster pillow, hollow fiber-filled anti-allergic cushion. Good lord. Yeah right. Lie on your side, hook the pillow between your knees, one arm lies on the bed, the other rests easily on the top of the pillow so it's basically it is a small man but just in stuffed pillow form and do you know what it's only 24 pounds there's nothing not to like and that deals with i mean i never a friend of mine did actually say this morning she sent a message saying i've just got to the bit in the podcast where you're talking about what to do with your arms. This is me. So thank you to, I can't remember the name of the original emailer on the subject, but we need to thank them.

We do. I think it's Angela, was it Angie? I thought it might be Alison. Alison, that was about, no you're right because I did for a moment think, was it your Alison? No, she doesn't listen. Oh, OK. It's my sister, by the way. Much loved, but not a key. To be fair, I rang my mum last night and she said, oh, I enjoyed Max Hastings. So I said, oh, yes, yes.

And she said, it's good because your dad was asleep. He always goes to sleep when you're on. Well, that's great. So Ray's reviews is just out for the count as soon as our Times Radio show starts. But if you're fair to my mother, she's a loyal radio listener, doesn't get podcasting. So Max Hastings as a guest on the Times Radio show is immensely appreciated by our audience too. Listening numbers shot up.

Well appreciation did didn't it? We've got this little tool, haven't we? Can we talk about it? Yeah, it's called the Worm. So the Worm tracks the listening data of people who are listening on demand. So if you're listening on the app or... Because it's not just normal digital radio. Or your speaker. Yep. Then the Worm can track how long you're listening and whether you switch off and all of those

kind of things. So the worm can go up and the worm can go down and it went up yesterday when Max Hastings was on. But as we did say after the show, the worm always goes up when somebody in a gilet appears on that show. Well, I shouldn't because he was genuinely interesting Max Hastings, he's got some quite thoughtful stuff to say about Donald Trump and contemporary politics. I thought he was brilliant Jane and also there's a fear of saying all of that or that you need

to preface saying all of that by he's democratically elected and all that kind of stuff but it was just really good to hear a man who can really cast himself across the long view of recent history and go, not going to bother saying all of that, I'm going to say he's a tyrant, that's what he's doing, he is being tyrannical. There is, I don't want to be facetious about this, but there is something about the gilet, about the unsleeved cushioned garment that not everyone can wear them. And on the subject of larger bosoms. Oh, you really can't.

You can't. No, I just don't think you can. And this week we were treated to lots of pictures of Prince George who's been 12. Oh yes, he's 12. Yep. And there were some lovely photographs that have come out of the royal household but he's wearing a gilet. He's only 12 and he's in a gilet. I didn't notice that. Really. Gosh it won't be far off the old beard oil is it? He's grown up. No, he's too obsessed with beard oil. It just really made me laugh. Now look, it's the football on Sunday. Now unfortunately for

England's plucky Lionesses, what? No Mystikov. No Mystikov's not, she's not performing. Unfortunately the wrong team won last night and what they have to do, let's pretend I'm a little Scouse Serena Vigman, they mustn't let that woman who scored for Spain, Mon Mati, fantastic player, fantastic name, they must not let her have the ball at any time. Ever. Ever. Ever.

Ever. Ever. That's just, that's my only tip because she is brilliant. Yeah. So actually they do, the England squad, it does have to slightly up its defence, wouldn't you say? Because in the game against Italy, Italy's defence was amazing. I mean it was smothering England in the first half of that match.

They cut everything out. Unfortunately for the Italians that was all they had really in their locker. Well, it's all over now. I did read some comments. Well they just didn't have Michelle in their locker. I did read some funny comments online yesterday. One England fan was really angry the Italians were celebrating before the game was over. And it was a bloke actually who described the Italians as Bolognese Belens. Okay, we don't want to, sorry, it's very sort of silly. But at the same time, I thought, well, that's very sort of silly, but at the same time I thought,

well that's actually quite funny. That's quite a good way of describing it. Anyway, I'm so struggling to take anything you say seriously because you've got this big thing. I will deal with it. It also needs to blow my nose. But it's just worth saying, I think whatever happens on Sunday, and I think England will have to play out their skins to beat Spain, they have given us so much joy over the last couple of weeks, so well done to everybody involved, but I can't be certain of the outcome. No, but I mean, to be fair, you never are. I guess that's the nature of life. I'm not actually able to see into the future. Anyone

else can? No. I've got exactly this one in front of me. You do it. You do it. You do, Tracey. Well she says, full disclosure, I live in Tombridge Wells. Are we sort of anti-people who live in Tombridge Wells? No, but we have discussed the fact that it's very smart but it doesn't have a Waitrose. Right, she says the last time I wrote, when you played for the other team, I did so in order to support Jane's mother who disapproved of Richard Osmond's portrayal of retirement communities. My own gripe was of his very poor research regarding Waitrose or the lack thereof in Tombridge Wells. Don't get me started, she says. FYI, mini-waitroses at the petrol station do not count. That's a bold statement. Do they not even register

a bit? I think they can sate your desire for a tiny amount of time and actually they've got a surprisingly good range. Sometimes when I get stuck on the Holloway Road and I can't make it all the way to the big waitros I do just turn into the mini weight trays. Kids emanators. Don't they? Well no, they're not going to spot something bought from a mini weight trays are they? Well they're quite canny with the food in the fridge. My tendency, says Tracy, is to listen to your podcast Omnibus style at the weekend. God I think that would blow my mind. Then I can revel in a delightful

canter through your topics. I have much to say about many of them, but Fear My Ramblings could potentially push even the most avid listener all the way to Tether's end. But she just brings us this memory and you'll be able to relate to this. If we had the spooky music, if the budget stretched that far, we could play it now. When I was young, says Tracy, my mum would sometimes take me to Bromley as a special treat. New joiners need to know that Fee once had a slightly out of body experience. Not just once, whenever I drive through Bromley. I think I've lived there before. The highlight of Tracy's trips to Bromley was a trip to C&A. On one such occasion Brian Cant was

on the down escalator while we were traveling on the up. For a split second we were almost touching and I was beyond giddy. To this day I regret not reaching out to brush his sleeve. Wonderful. Yep it is. Brian Cant was the very avuncular chap who was one of the hosts of Play School. Yep. Well, play away. Play away. Play away.

This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep, the one and only. Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park. Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf. The list goes on and on. There's

only one place you can do all of these on. There's only one place you can do all of these things. There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast we're chatting to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution Lonnie G Bunch who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash wdc. So our guest today could not be more different to our guest yesterday, although in a very similar vein Jane and I only need to ask a couple of questions and we will be informed. Janet Street Porter. Her latest stage show reads, the bitch is back, live and uncensored.

John and Basingstoke speed dial off com. JSP promises to deep dive into some things that can be very tricky to talk about and that's everything from her fractious relationship with her mum to what really happens when a relationship runs out of steam. Janet, very good afternoon from both Jane and I. How are you? Very well, thank you. Yes. A little bit hoarse. I've just done a three and a half hour car drive. So I mean, I drove so I'm a bit wiped out. Were you talking all the way? No, I was driving.

I can't do, I don't talk and drive. No. No. Okay. Except to criticize other drivers. Okay. Well, we'll be very, we'll be very, very calm and gentle with you Janet. It's a delight for you to join us. No I can't promise that at all, I don't know why I did.

Shall we start with some of these things that you want to talk about in your stage show? What does really happen when a relationship runs out of steam? Well you'll have to come along to find that out won't you? I can only say what's really happened to me and well how my relationships have run out of steam. I mean I think relationships are a bit like a credit and debit ledger and they always start off with like 100% in the credit side of accounts and then as things go on gradually points move to the debit side and then one day you wake up and it's basically balance nought. Okay can a deflated relationship never be reinflated? Not in my experience no but I know there's a whole industry growing up these days just trying to persuade people that that's possible so I might be going

against the grain here but I can only say what I've been like. Okay. Can we talk a bit about your relationship with your mum? I was so sad to read actually about how difficult it had been and I wonder, for many people it is later on in their lives that those kind of childhood relationships start to hurt them again, just at a time at which maybe you think it should all diminish a bit. Is that what's happened for you? Well, I wrote my memoir about my relationship with my mother in 2003. And this year I've

updated it, I've gone through it and I've read it again and I've added another chapter and it's being republished. The new edition is coming out in August to coincide with my tour. Now, I wrote the book then because my mother died and I couldn't understand why right to the very end we never seem to gel. After I wrote the book, a lot of women wrote to me saying that they had experienced the same thing. And I also wrote the book in the first place, I suppose, because I thought I was turning

into my mother. It was a bit of a wake-up call. I looked in the mirror and I thought, my God, I am turning into her. I better do something about it. OK. Was she proud of what you'd achieved Janet? Well that assumes we had a normal relationship but she would have said things like I'm proud of what you've done but she didn't she was proud of me obviously she was but then she was also um

well I I think there was a lot of issues to do with the fact that she left school at 14. She didn't have a choice. She didn't have any of the choices that I had or my generation had because she grew up in a very working class situation in North Wales where her father heard his back in a quarry accident or incident, I'm not quite sure what happened, and he could no longer work. And so she was taken out of school and went out to work at 14 as a housemaid. Right, so very different

series of opportunities or not available to her. Well the fact is my mother was very very clever, so she was not a smart she was a smart cookie who had things gone differently and had she had different things happen to her in life she might have ended up you know not having children and doing what I did who knows I mean I can't understand my mum and dad's relationship and why they stay together just as much as I can't. I kind of looked at it so many times and when you say in later life do you go back to it? I'm fascinated by that our relationship because it ended up so unresolved.

Yeah, you have done so much with your own career Janet. You work for The Mail, you've edited The Independent on Sunday, you commissioned groundbreaking youth TV. Is it fair to say that the controller of BBC Two was the job that got away and if it was what would you have done with it? Because it's awfully dull now isn't it? I think, well do you know at the time, when I fly for that job, obviously you don't just apply on a bit of a sheet of A4 paper and say, I want to be controller of BBC Two

because I think it's the right job. I wrote out whole program plans, schedules. I looked at the schedule they were doing then, how to attract a wider audience. I feel that at the time when I didn't get the job and I stormed off, it was very, in retrospect, a big mistake that I should have grown up a bit, stayed there, worked with the person that did get the job and who knows I probably would have got the job in the end when they got tired of it. But I think also, sorry, I just want to

finish this point that when you work in a big organization like the BBC, a lot of your time is taken up with meetings and what circulation list you're on and who's where in the you know the pyramid of power and where you are in pecking order and that is ultimately takes up a disproportionate amount of your time and I suspect it's the same for any big organization whether it's BBC or the NHS or whatever and so I thought that if I left and started in a different environment, I'd be able to do my ideas more easily. And actually, the truth is that the BBC would have been a better place. Would it really?

Well, only in so far as it had a structure that was organised and people who knew about programme making and people who had expertise in technical areas and who weren't like discovering it on the job. So I think that television has changed tremendously since then, but I was on the, when I left the BBC it was the cusp of, you know, channel five was being, there was the cusp of, you know, channel five was being, there was the channel five bid, there was MTV was expanding,

that more channels were coming on board. You know, it's the start of a multi-channel environment. I mean, I don't want to talk jargon to your listeners, but you know, it was a change. It was a turning point. And since that day, you know, it was a change. It was a turning point. And since that day, you know, obviously, we are so spoiled for choice now, that in the end, choice is actually suffocating TV

in so many ways because people have almost too much choice and it kind of paralyzes them. Yeah, some things never seem to change in television. The behavior of stars is one thing that we would definitely like your opinion on. I know that you've appeared on MasterChef a couple of times. Do you think it's the right decision to put the latest amateur MasterChef series out?

Well, I thought about that. I, yeah, I did appear on it twice. I mean, the first time I appeared on it, I was kind of the runner up and I wasn't very happy about that. I thought I should have won. Who did win? Oh, Aide Aidman. So with a boring blokey, you know, the kind of thing blokes cook to win shows like that. A bit of white fish with some colored vegetables arranged all around it very pretty but actually boring as back shit. Well, what was what was your alternative? I

Created a menu that was so good. I did a duck Shepherd's pie that I completely invented and then I invented some it and then I invented some chili ice cream so it was hot and cold at the same time. So after I did it on the show they actually put it on the menu at John Tereau's restaurant or one of the restaurants they were doing with the tour. So I worked, you know, I got to know John and Greg pretty well then. I already knew Greg because he delivered vegetables to my partner's restaurant and we knew him as Greg the Veg from the year dot. Then I did MasterChef the second time which was a Christmas one which I'm very pleased to say I won, thank God, and so I worked with them again.

And I didn't really notice any difference in the way they talked to the contestants, except that I felt that there was a bit of a distance between the two of them that I picked up on distance between the two of them that I picked up on the second time. They weren't quite so pally with each other. Now, whether this series should be put out? I think the reason why it should be put out is number one, it will be absolutely edited to remove anything that could cause offense or be construed in an unacceptable way. Secondly, the time and effort that the contestants put into MasterChef is tremendous. And I think that to deny them their time on air time and their moment in the spotlight is cruel because what happened was nothing to do with them. Yeah. And I think the BBC has a duty, any broadcaster, not the BBC, just the BBC, to kind of salvage

as much as they can from the situation. And I suppose the third reason for broadcasting series is it is a much loved series by the public for, and it has changed the way people think about food. And I think what's interesting about MasterChef is that, I mean, when I was at the BBC and I was a BBC executive, I was in charge of junior MasterChef is that, I mean, when I was at the BBC and I was a BBC executive, I was in charge of junior MasterChef for about five minutes till he took it off me for being slightly overbearing to the contestants. Tell us more. I don't know. I made some child cry because I said something about kiwi fruit with a pulp chop.

Right. I'm going to not go further. But I do understand because obviously I once was executive producer of it when at the BBC and I've seen it so much over the years. I've seen how the public absolutely value the program. And so with something like that, it's an iconic program. It should live on with different presenters and it all just attract the same old.

There is undoubtedly, though, Jan, it's a problem within television about the gap between power, between the people who are presenting the program and everyone's fanning around them and forgiving them all of their sins. And then the people who are presenting the program and everyone's fanning around them and forgiving them all of their sins and then the people much further down who are actually doing quite a lot of the legwork, all of the running, all of the filming, all of the fetching and carrying and who don't seem to be listened to when they say, I've seen something dreadful or something dreadful is happening around me. When does that change?

Well, I think that communication, yeah, there's always been this problem at the BBC and actually in commercial television as well, that the people in charge at the top are a long way from the people actually on the gold face on the studio floor. And so you can talk about also in ITV this morning and the Philip Schofield situation that Philip Schofield, nobody would speak out about how they felt about Philip Schofield because who wants to lose their job? And I think there's that at play as well. Do you think there's a blatant snobbery still at play here too where actually Greg Wallace may have been forgiven some of his sins because people at the production company or at the BBC just didn't really know how to deal with someone who wasn't called Justin or Charlotte or No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because there are other working class presenters like Stacey Dooley. Don't forget, I was first on television in 1975,

and it was such a bloody fuss made about my accent and being working class and not looking normal. And since then, the BBC and ITV have made tremendous attempts to bring in people outside such a narrow range of presenters as they had 25, 50 years ago. I mean, I can't believe it's 50 years since I was first on telly, but it is. And back then, anybody working class was, you know, well, first of all, they thought you were stupid. You were regarded as a bit sick. And I'm sorry, I've lost the thread of the question now.

Well, don't worry. But I'm heartened to hear that you think actually, you know, that's not a reason for Greg Wallace having any justification for any of the behaviour that he had. Because it was a reason that he knew. His justification for everything has been disastrous, absolutely disastrous. And I think it's exactly like Russell Brand, you know, they are in their own world. They just don't see it. They just do not see it. And I mean, there are plenty of people like that. They have been caught out, but there are plenty of other people and there are plenty of people who

are quite nauseating to work with. But you know, we just get on with it. Yes. Men get weird with middle-aged discuss. This I'm quoting from you yourself Janet if that's okay. What did I say, as long as it's the next sentence? So you said that they get weird with middle-aged and that they become absolutely incapable of multitasking and that you send them out to the supermarket and they come back with the same thing every time which is English mustard, gherkins and bacon. And I thought you put your finger on something there love.

It is and the other thing is that I find, I have written about this, that as men go into say the late 40s, early 50s, they've got a little bit of a punch. So what is their role model? What do they dress like? A toddler. So they actually get really, really baggy shorts that are like halfway between their knees and the ground. And then they get the baggy t-shirt with an inappropriate slogan on it about surfing or heavy metal or, you know, whatever, as if they do any of those things. And they look like they think that's a kind of cool look, but it's actually a baby, their baby, it's a baby look. So the thing, look, don't get me wrong, I really love men, I've got, you know, I love, you know, I love it. I know you're not allowed to say that word.

You know, I'm a bit bothered about even saying the sentence, I really love men, because have I got to add in all the options into that sentence? No, you can stick with just that. On Times Radio, that's still acceptable. Don't worry. Oh, thank God for that. Oh, dearie me. Can we cast our eye across the horizon of what's happening in this country? Nigel Farage basically says the country is on the edge of civil disobedience. I wonder what you think of him and I wonder what you think of that prediction.

Well, my experience of Nigel Farage is quite comical. I met him at Evgeny Lebedev's house at dinner. I think I met him a couple of times before just at drinks, parties and things. And then I went to a dinner and I obviously sat next to him and spent a long time talking to him. And he was a, he is a very engaging, you know, he's a, he's a bit of a laugh. He's a good conversationalist. There's no doubt about that. And at the of the email I realized right I'm going home I've got to do a show the next day. Anyway he got up with me and he went can I share your cab to Charing Cross? And I went why? He said I'm gonna miss my last train I think he was living somewhere in Kent at the time.

I said, I thought you'd have a driver, aren't you a stockbroker or something? And he went, well, can I just share anyway? I'll let him share my cab. But whereas normally I would have not. But that's a measure of his persuasiveness. Did he give you the money? Of course not. Doesn't that say everything? And what's the entertaining company in the cab? Oh, I think he'd run out of steam a bit by then. He'd probably be fully bevvied up by.

Well, he's also a man of a certain age, isn't he? So perhaps the night had been wearisome. Not your company. Can we have a quick word on Loose Women and its fate? What's happening there? Well, ITV need, like all broadcasters, have seen their earnings, their income from advertising diminishing hugely over the last year. And they decided they needed to make 11 million pounds worth of savings or some massive amount. So they decided to cut the episodes of Loose Women back from whatever it had risen to,

because it had risen inextricably over the years to being on almost all year round, back to the level it was when it started, which is 30 weeks of the year, so that's 150 episodes. I feel personally, and I've had lunch with Kevin Ligo, who I know very well, he's the head of programs. He's probably got an even more important title than that these days. I've no, he's probably got an even more important title than that these days. I know him from when we were both BBC executives together, so I know him pretty well. So I've said to him in no uncertain terms what I feel about it, which is that Loose Women performs a valuable service. It talks about things women are interested in, in a pretty straightforward way. It gives people a bit of a laugh in the middle of the day.

It doesn't take itself too seriously. It's done valuable campaigns on domestic abuse. So in the limited time available to us Janet, is it going to carry on? Yes, of course it's carrying on. Of course it's carrying on. It's carrying on for 30 weeks of next year and maybe more if I can bully Kevin Ligo into submission. Well obviously we don't condone bullying. Oh no, of course we don't condone bullying. Metaphorically speaking.

Metaphorically of course. Janet, thank you very much indeed for joining us this afternoon. Janet Street-Porter is on a stage somewhere near you with her very latest live show. Yes, there's a lot to digest. I think she's one of those people, Jane, it's impossible to imagine the landscape of our popular culture, especially on television without Janet Street Porter. It feels like she's always been there and it is really welcome that she's always been there. Yeah, yeah, she's a good thing. Lots of energy and still at it and may she continue. God, totally and also just not being bland. I mean there can be a blandness on television

that is highly rewarded. It is, it's richly rewarded and that kind of TV beige is pretty much agonising for the rest of us. So we need more Janet, definitely. We really do. She's also, she's an unlikely Janet, isn't she? What should Janet Street Porter have been called? Something like Evangeline. Evangeline Street Porter? ESP.

Right. Let's go! Let's go. It's been lovely. You get a weekend off, so do we. We're all grateful. Jane and Fee at Times. Radio. Bye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app.

Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep, the one and only. Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces, like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park.

Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf. The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these things. There's only one place you can do all of these things. There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast, we're chatting to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Lonnie G. Bunch, who looks after 17 museums in the city.

Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash wdc.