Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness... and Dora's sh*ts (with Liane Moriarty)

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

It's Wednesday, let's slam a door and take a tooth! Jane and Fi are back in the room together to create this podcast magic... they cover unreliable Instagram purchases, dogs at uni and feeling randy.Plus, best selling author Liane Moriarty discusses her latest book ‘Here One Moment’. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My face was swollen. I felt like a crock of shit. But still this woman thought that I might be of an age where I had to pay for my prescriptions. Well, did you have some condoms and sexy oil in your basket? As women, our life stages come with unique risk factors. Like high blood pressure developed during pregnancy, which can put us two times more at risk of heart disease or stroke. Know your risks. Visit heartandstroke.ca. So Jane is back in. How are you? Thank you very much indeed for asking. How are you?

No, I've not been away having a tooth extracted. Well, I don't know whether it was a cold or not. I don't want to start a spooky trousers theme here at all. I had the Covid and flu vaccination at the same time. The double whammy. Yep. And I suspect I might have been double whammed. I don't think it's unusual. I think people do. Do they? They do say that. Yeah. So anyway, look, we're both in. We've rallied, but yours was a far more kind of urgent health issue. Oh God. It was, look, anyone who's had trouble with their teeth and we've got a lot, can

I say thank you for the root canal support on email, hugely appreciated. It's been said before, there's just not a lot like tooth pain. It's just horrible. So cast your mind into the horrendous world of the imagination where we didn't have modern dentistry. Well I have been. And how many people would have been walking around. I mean it's not just that, people obviously routinely died of gum disease because there were no antibiotics but dentistry barely existed a hundred years ago. I'm actually genuinely fascinated now. In fact the dentist I was able to see on Monday said that he was quite a regular

visitor to the dental museum. I think you should go not now, but I think when your teeth are well, you should treat yourself to a little trip round. I think it's at the Dental Association, which is in W1. Anyway, he said it was fascinating because it actually did just tell you so much about it. And he said, you know, back in the day when people would have their teeth all just taken out at the age of 21, he said actually there was a kind of social history aspect to this which I didn't know and I should have done, that a woman would get all her teeth out for her wedding photograph. So that for her wedding photographs, we were talking about a wedding photograph yesterday, weren't we? Or a wedding report. They'd have these wonderful pearly white albeit false nashers.

But it was also something that benefited the hobby because he didn't. Eve. No, Eve, please. I hadn't thought about that. Please. I'm going to carry on. There was an even nanosecond hesitation. You carry on. Rise above it. Can you see me rising? It was because the man would obviously be doing the work because in those days, this is a while ago, women wouldn't work outside the home

or most of them wouldn't and the hubby would get saddled with all the dental bills if she had any issues. Far better to whip them all out. Jobs are good, aren't they? So when Jane Mulcairn's was sitting in for you on the podcast, we talked about exactly this because her grandmother had had all of her teeth taken out when she was 21. As a gift. Yes, and a lot of the young women in her village in Ireland had exactly the same thing done because it was regarded as cheaper in the long run to just have them all extracted. Because paying for the care would be a man's responsibility.

But just the pain associated with having every one of your teeth pulled out when they were perfectly healthy is so, so mind-boggling. And all of that stuff that we kind of joke about now, you know, that you'd tie a string to your tooth and someone would come along and slam the door. Ha ha, like hell. Yeah, you know, you can't comprehend how often that would have been happening. I mean, just in houses across the land. It's Wednesday. Let's slam a door and take a tooth. Here we go.

If you had come into my bedroom at 10 to 3 on Sunday morning. I've stopped that. Only after the restraining order. I would have said let's do that because I can't stand this a minute longer. And it did make me think of Steve Wright. Our dearly departed Steve Wright, because he used to do quite a bit of his own dentist streaks. I think he just really genuinely didn't like going to the dentist. I was petrified of it, I think.

Yep, as lots of people. Do you know, it's funny you mention him, because I had a Steve Wright moment. Which afternoon was it? I think it was Friday afternoon when I was in a form of agony and I just thought oh I can just listen to Steve Wright and then I thought he's gone. I can't can I? And it's funny people say that radio presenters don't matter and they're you know no one's indispensable and all the rest of it but some people do live on in your imagination in your thoughts. I still miss Terry Wogan when there is a big thing that happens. Terry Wogan just always managed to say very little but absolutely say what needed to be said. So he had just come off the back of

appropriately chosen tune and just say something in you know three or four words that just summed up the mood of a nation really and I miss that because he was very self-deprecating in his power really but he did have a lot of power and I still I yearn for a Terry Wogan in the mornings. He'd have had a lot of fun with Donald Trump wouldn't he? Oh my word! Well and he just would have lanced the boil you know very very early on about you know why we were all paying him so much attention and stuff. And he'd still be very,

very good on changing governments and stuff like that without being political. I think he was a radio genius. Let's just have a moment. Yeah, yeah, no, he was. Yeah, absolutely. He was a cracker. I also regret to say that sometimes when you're off on the sick, you do silly things. And I have bought something on Instagram, which I would normally, another drain weasel.

Which is being delivered today, so I'll report back. You know when you are sort of slightly vulnerable because you start the mind. And you're medicated. I'm quite really well-tively medicated. I was mindlessly scrolling and I couldn't resist it. Can I just warn people against a purchase that I made in a very similar vein earlier on in the summer, which was a leaf extinguisher that has fire coming out of the end of it.

No, a weed extinguisher. So it's like a little kind of bunsen burner and it said that I could just take it across all of my paths and patios and destroy the weeds because I don't want to use weed because I've got too many pets. So I bought it and then of course I couldn't work out how to use it so the later in life love interest had to fit it all together and start using it. And he said, how much did this cost you? I said, how much did it cost you? I said 35 pounds. He said you really should have gone for the £40 one. It's just hopeless. It doesn't do anything at all.

So that's just a little warning. If you're feeling vulnerable to a silly purchase, think of us. What kind of a weasel is it? Well it's, I'm not going to mention the company, it's one of those companies that then relentlessly emails you with all kinds of other offerings. You'll be offered the Bunsen burner for weeds. They've got the measure of me. I can lend you mine. Thank you. I've unsubscribed.

I don't want to... After the delivery of this... What's it going to do? What's the promise? It's something that you put down. I've got a particular issue with the drain in my shower because the other two residents have got very long hair, very thick hair and it all just builds up in the revolting. It's a whole ghastly universe.

Well, I bought you the tongs. I don't think you've used the tongs, actually. I did, Vee, I did try. I also sometimes just put on rubber gloves and do it myself. But I know, when you sign up to motherhood, you don't think long term about stuff like this. No, and I think the long hair thing is ignored whenever we have a discussion about fatbergs. I think the amount of hair removal as well going on in this country at the moment.

It's creating all kinds of problems. But the weasel is going to go down the drain for you. It's not actually called a weasel. So that's another appliance which I tried and didn't quite do the business for me. Yes, you put it down, a few quick twirls, up it comes. Okay. Well, I think that's worth a little Instagram reel when you do it, if possible. Thank you. I'll see if I can sort it. I should say that my dental, I'm not going to call it hell because there are so many worst things in life, but not quite over. So I've got more root canal next Monday, but we're going to do the podcast in the morning, aren't we,

before I get the treat. Before you start dribbling and drooling. And I will be doing both of those things. Sharon says I'm quite the expert on root canals being the beneficiary of three such treatments over the years. The legacy of 60s dentistry and growing up in North London in that same decade when a solo trip to the sweet shop with a fistful of coppers courtesy of one or both doting grandparents with whom we shared our home in Crickelwood, was a daily occurrence. Back to root canals. When the lovely receptionist books you a 90-minute appointment, alarm bells do ring ever so slightly. These ramp up to epic levels when you're in the chair and being prepped. My lovely dentist would buckle up prior to the not-so-gentle insertion of

various metallic contraptions into my gaping jaws, the worst and most barbaric of which was the infamous rubber dam. Hannibal Lecter, eat your heart out. Never has 90 minutes felt more like nine hours as the seconds trickle by to the inevitable soundtrack of drills, suction devices and interminable prodding and poking. But you do get to hang on to the tooth. Perhaps times have changed and Jane's treatment will be more benign. I so hope so. Thank you Sharon.

Why don't dentists put a TV in the ceiling so you can at least have some kind of distraction? Well you wouldn't be able to hear it would you? No but you could just watch it with subtitles. Nobody listens to television in my house anyway. They just watch television with subtitles. Oh, my God, that's a nightmare. Exactly the same. What would be on in the afternoon that would soothe?

One of those shows about buying a house in Spain. Yeah, I always find them very entertaining. Do you not? Well, no, because I'm not going to buy a house in Spain. I'm not going to buy a house anywhere. I like to look. Susan's in Somerset. My husband retired, this is a good story this, my husband retired from dentistry two years ago and the first morning after the big day, guess what? Did he have a tooth problem? Yes, he woke up with a fat face and a horrendous toothache. He had a full blown abscess under a crown and spent his entire first day of retirement back in the dental surgery as a patient. I

didn't laugh at all. Always opt for root canal as the extraction option leaves you with a gap and that just leads on to other treatment options to replace the space. Anyway, this evening I'm off to see Simon Armitage in Bruton Church. May have to take a mega tog duvet with me. Don't forget the probiotics to counter the antibiotic effect on her tummy. Much love Susan and Somerset." Yes, no, you should do that. Actually, that probably explains why my stomach has been a bit odd, because I haven't taken antibiotics for years. So you need to be taking... So

what probiotics should I... What should I do? Well I think actually if you just... That's annoying because my daughter also said that and I ignored her. If you do a bit of your kefir and your sauerkraut then you'll be doing your gut an awful lot. Kefir of course. Of good. Because antibiotics just sweep everything out don't they? So all the good bacteria go from your gut. And you need them back. Otherwise you might have a little bit of a low patch. She's writing it down.

Kaffirin. Dear Fian Jane, surely a one-tog duvet, the duvet thing has taken on a life of its own. Surely a one-tog duvet is a sheet. Best, which is as always, Liz. It's a good observation. I mean, how thin would a one-tog be? I don't know, but I'm thinking I'd go for one if it was available, I tell you.

I'm still too hot at night. I'm so sorry, don't worry about it. Hello again, thank you for reading out my letter yesterday. It made my day because, as I mentioned, it was my birthday and it was rather a damp one. Yes, my name really is Gaynor Frostick. It did take me a while to get used to the second bit as it was bestowed on me by my husband. But I rather like it now so it's great that I aced it. My friend Jules has tickled pink to hear my name read out so she'll be tickled

pink again today so if you can say hello to her she'll be even more pleased. Well hello Jules. Hello Jules. I do think it's just an absolutely brilliant name Gaynor. We need more Eve just saying. Best wooshers come in from Fern. I think we should get Eve to read more emails because her voice is just amazing. Well she's got a very unseemly sense of humour. She's young. And she's young and neither of those two things are appealing. No we think the world of her really. Yes so we should do that. While pets might not be allowed in times towers comes Jane, first name only, we're happy to do that. I thought you might be interested to see the freshers' activities on offer at my nephew's accommodation at...

Is it in Liverpool? Liverpool University! We're going to try and do a week where we don't reference Liverpool. It's just not possible. It's almost in. Where was the Labour conference? Liverpool! In addition to the Sunday Times home section...

It's never been in Canterbury. It was all about Slough! It was all about Slough! Move to Slough! I read it. It did sound more... Listen, where's affordable? But it did sound more affordable, slough, which is why they'd

written about it, and also the Elizabeth line makes it easier to commute from. Anyway, just saying, carry on. In addition to dog therapy, there will be a petting zoo later this week. We're back in Liverpool University here. I don't know about you, but when I was at university in the 1990s, the student night at Newcastle's Ritzy Nightclub was the closest we got to a betting zoo. I can well imagine. We can all imagine that.

But I think that's rather lovely. So presumably you can take your dog to Liverpool University if they've got dog therapy on offer. Well at Newcastle University, which my youngest has just left, they did have a dog. The university had a dog. The university had a dog. Oh, that's lovely. Which was, you could take the dog for walks and yeah, I did think it was lovely. I honestly think people who complain are slightly wrong. I mean, the world has just got in some ways

worse, but also curiously a lot kinder. And I think that's a good example. Why not have a dog that somebody who's 19 and is missing home, but had a dog at home, can take for a walk? Completely, Jane. What's wrong with that? Or, you know, be allowed to take your cats with you. I mean, dogs are slightly more problematic because they need to be outside an awful lot of the time. But actually, I think, well, I don't even think,

I absolutely know that both my kids, when they set up home somewhere else, will miss the pets more than me. You know, they are such an enormous, enormous part of our family life. I get it. And they would... Sorry, that slightly underestimates your input. No, don't worry. It's colossal. Don't worry. But I would feel...

They can't stroke you though, can they? I would feel better. They do. I would feel better if they did have one of our lovely animals with them as well. And I think Barbara needs a change of scene. I can't see her at university. I think it might be the making of her actually. I think she just needs to plug her brain into something. She's become... I can't actually, I just can't talk about Barbara this week. I'll wait until next week.

I was going to post something actually up on the Insta because sometimes Barbara and I have a love in and I do think I'm very rude about her on this podcast and some people might need to know that I do love her very very much. Nobody doubts that. She's so problematic. Yeah she can be a well she's a minx. I should say that we'll know the seasons have properly changed when Dora starts doing her business in the house again. Do let us know. No, no, I will, because then, believe me, winter will be very much upon us.

She's still presently making an early dart for the garden. The season of mists and mellow fruit from it. And Dora's sheds. Outside, currently. But likely to become internal in the next couple of weeks. I missed some mellow fruit from this and Dora's shudds. Outside currently, but likely to become internal in the next couple of weeks. Right, Earwax, I don't know how you've reached your fifth and sixth decades respectively. Actually, aren't we in our... Well, we're in our sixth and seventh.

God, that's depressing, but I'll take the... Do you know what was really sweet? The only thing that made me laugh on whenever it was, I think it was Monday, was that I had my prescription for amoxicillin to take to the chemist and the woman assumed that I was having to pay, which of course at my advanced age I no longer have to do, but she said that would be 15 pounds. And you know why? I was so flattered that I didn't pay that I sorry that I did pay didn't say I'm 60 I just said my face was swollen I felt like a crock of shit but still this woman thought that I might be of an age

where I had to pay for my prescriptions. Well did you have some condoms and sexy oil in your basket? God, you must be joking. I defy anyone with a tooth infection to feel remotely randy. But I suppose it may be possible. I love the word randy. If I'd been blessed with a son-fee. Randy Garvey! I haven't finished the email. I've been blessed with a son-fee for Andy Garvey. I haven't finished the email. I haven't even started it really.

I have plenty of memories of holding on to kitchen counters in the 90s. This is actually about something relatively sensible. Well, I'm going to plough on. I've got plenty of memories of holding on to kitchen counters in the 90s. I think it's a bit like your nature sketch. Just give people a chance to wipe that visual image. This email's from T by the way. To maintain balance and stillness trying to maneuver my head to the side so my mum could add a few drops off a teaspoon of olive oil this is to whatever ear was giving me short sharp pain and then a few more drops in the other ear for luck. I was grateful when I

can instruct my now husband to take over this duty 13 years ago as it was awkward to do it myself in the intervening years. Olive oil does indeed soften the wax so the wax should then disperse itself. Note of warning, adding too much olive oil over a period of a few weeks, as is usually the recommendation, can make hearing temporarily worse, perhaps if the wax is particularly bad. For this reason, my preference has switched to Otex drops. They are also much easier to administer yourself and give a satisfactory fizz upon application. Oh golly that sounds great. As if snap, crackle and pop have met milk in your ear canal.

Oh I like that. Now that tea. Thank you for what a beautiful email. Thank you very much indeed. She does actually add, as a teenager I was gifted an ear pick by the older brother in my Japanese host family. That's very nice, isn't it? Extraordinary detail from life. Yes, there we are. Thank you.

Afternoon Jane and Fee. This one comes from Marie. Listening to the local paper feature sent me rummaging in the roof space. A few years ago we did a spoof issue of a local paper and we called it Evening Star. A couple of Mystic Regs, Reg, Mystic Reg's predictions on page three have almost come right. Namely, the return of the whistling milkman and on the theme of transport he predicted that following the success of the London bike hire, horses would be available outside of Inns which could be ridden on a series of designated pathways. Well I mean we're not far off wanting that and actually making that happen. Jane and I may well be getting a horse to share.

Yes, it's all in the contract. We're just mulling over some of the finer points at the moment. Well we can escape the Eulers and the congestion charge and also get a seat every day. I can't get a seat on the Jubilee Line anymore. We're still waiting for Lordenham and a Water Spoons, a cross between a bookshop and a pub to catch on Keep It Light, Love the Show. Now Lordenham, who was it who took that? Was it quite a famous person who took that? Was it Sir Arthur Conan Doyle? That's right, I think it was, yeah.

And it was a... Well it's a hefty hefty sedative bordering on anaesthetic, bordering on poison, bordering The Conan Doyle. That's right. I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a… Well, it's a hefty, hefty sedative bordering on anesthetic, bordering on poison, bordering on whoops, I've died. All of those things. Yes. This is not a medical podcast as regular listeners may now realize.

As women, our life stages come with unique risk factors, like when our estrogen levels drop during menopause, causing the risk of heart disease to go up. Know your risks. Visit heartandstroke.ca. You know how balanced we are? We don't give preferential treatment to anybody. Except maybe hugely successful globally renowned authors who also make a point of listening to our podcast off air. We are really nice to them aren't we on the whole?

Well you're saying that we just gave Leanne Moriarty a tote bag as soon as she asked for one? Pretty much. We want to give an especially warm welcome this afternoon to our favourite living Australian, Leanne Moriarty. She is the woman behind Big Little Lies and Apples Never Fall and she has a new book, it's just out, and here, One Moment is another hit. Now imagine this, you're on a plane and then a fallow passenger, a nondescript old dear, someone you'd never notice, stands up and very casually and calmly tells her fallow travellers when they're going to die and how. I asked Leanne when she gets her best ideas.

So my idea for this one came on a flight exactly like in the book. So I was on a delayed flight out of Tasmania, out of Hobart on my way back home to Sydney and we were stuck on the tarmac and that's when the cheerful thought came into my head that every single passenger on this plane was going to one day die. And looking back, I can see there was a time in my life where I was thinking about my own mortality. So a few things had happened

in the years leading up to that day. So first of all, my sister was diagnosed with breast cancer, then I lost my dad, then we had the pandemic, and then I myself was diagnosed with breast cancer. And just being in my 50s, I think, thinking about your own mortality. So I was thinking that and then I was looking at the other passengers and I was thinking, so will you be the one who makes it to 100? Or will you be the one whose life is unexpectedly cut short? And that's when I thought at some time in the future that information will be available as in somebody could look back and they could see the age and death and cause of death for

everybody on that flight. And that's when I thought imagine if somebody stood up and shared those facts. It is interesting obviously that question of whether we'd live our lives differently if we knew when the whole crazy shebang was going to be over. What do you think the answer to that question is? Well the thing is when I first started writing the book I was thinking if the characters were told that I was thinking so they'll all have amazing revelations about the way they're going to lead their lives. But then I realised that if you're told you're going to die in a workplace accident, you're

not just going to keep going to work, you're going to think about so how do I get out of this in the same way that if you're given a terrible diagnosis, the first thing you say is I don't believe you, I want a second opinion or I want a different treatment plan, I want to enrol in a clinical trial. So I realised then that it became more about fate as opposed to, and controlling your own destiny as opposed to how do you live your life. I don't want to be too invasive but you said you've had breast cancer. What was it like for you to get that diagnosis? I can just remember there were a few days before I knew the treatment plan where I knew

I had breast cancer and I didn't know. And before I had surgery so I didn't know if it had gone to my lymph nodes. And I just remember looking at my children, so it's the worst thing thinking about your children. I can remember sitting at the dinner table and feeling sort of a sense of vertigo and also thinking, gosh, that went fast, as in life. But then I was pretty quickly on that journey to going through treatment. I had my locker and I knew that it would been caught early. So I always say I didn't look at my own mortality

straight in the face. I just gave it a passing glance. So I can't say that I had amazing revelations. And I do feel that I'm very happy with my life. I remember saying to my daughter, my 14-year-old daughter, she said, what would you do if you could do any job at all? And I said, well, I thought it was going to be a teachable moment. Because I said, well, I'm doing my dream job. And I thought she'd always remember this. And she

said, oh, that's so cringe, mum. There you are. I'm Lea Moriarty and I'm doing my dream job. Lovely kids. It's really, really worth investing the time. But that's actually a very true, what that's so brilliant about your books is what you've just said there actually is exactly what I get from your books is that you talk about the kind of ambivalence that does come with a lot of personal relationships, whether within a family or with friends. And one of the characters in this book is this young man Ethan who has lost a friend, Harvey, and Harvey has died and in his death he's assumed a significance that actually he didn't really have in Ethan's life.

Yes, exactly. And Ethan sort of resents this. Just expand a little bit on that because I did find that it was both troubling but also very true. Yeah, I think it is. I think even if there's somebody who you don't know that well and then you lose them, then well, they've done something that you haven't done. They've gone, that's what Ethan talks about, as if he's moved to Siberia. he's done something extraordinary. And thinking about that with my dad, I keep thinking I want to say, well, what was that like, dad? Because, you know, he shared all the stories of all the amazing things that have happened to him in life. And I still

can't believe I don't get to hear, so what happened then? Yeah, what's it like? So yeah, and I do think a lot of us don't experience that much death in the Western world. Some people are very lucky. And I can always remember organizing my dad's funeral, the funeral director saying some people come and they're organizing their parents' funeral and they've never been to a funeral before. So it just, yeah, it

gives somebody more, although, yeah, Ethan's really exploring his relationship. He's a good friend, but he's not a family member, and he doesn't know how to, what grief he's allowed to feel. Yeah, what he's expected to feel. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. Plus, you also acknowledge the fact that, for example, through another of the characters, I think it's Sue, how mothers of people who are married feel about their, in this case, daughters in law. This kind of, you know, they meet and they sort of basically, let's just be honest, they slag them off a little bit. It's therapeutic. And look, I don't doubt it goes on. We all

know it does, don't we? Yeah, I'm already thinking about my future daughter-in-law and... Heaven help her. But it is, that's a really intriguing dynamic, isn't it? Some people might dismiss, but you shouldn't do that because it's all part of the life. Of course I might love my future daughter-in-law and sometimes they become an amazing part of the family that's the hope. So for anyone who's still a bit intrigued by this but we should say that this incident on this flight happens with this strange older woman who was anonymous and uninteresting and no one took much

notice of she makes these pronouncements and then they get off the plane and they with this strange older woman who was anonymous and uninteresting and no one took much notice of. She makes these pronouncements and then they get off the plane and they have to carry on their lives with this hanging over them. What the novel does is it explores the world of the psychic and the people who visit them and choose to believe in them and indeed the mathematical issue of probability. So let's start with psychics. Do you believe any of that stuff? Yes. And I think some psychics actually use probability a little bit when they're making their predictions. And I really tried to sort of straddle both sides when I was writing this book because I'm a sceptic but I'd love to believe.

So I, and I have some friends who are real believers. And I did go to a psychicist's research for this book, but I could tell as soon as she saw me, she clocked me and she thought, okay, she's a middle-aged woman and her children have probably just left home and now she's thinking I want to see a psychic because what's next? And so she was saying to me, so you're thinking, oh, I've done everything for everybody else, what about me? It's time for something about me.

And I was thinking, no, it's really always been about me. It's not, that's not the case for me. And so then she was saying, so what do you do? And I said, I'm an author. And she said, well, I think you should do okay with your books. Maybe don't change what you're writing. But maybe you could think about changing the way you market them. You could sell them.

Because you could sell them because you've only sold 20 million. Yeah, so maybe, she said maybe you could think about selling them on eBay or something like that. Yeah. But interestingly at an event I did recently, a woman came up to me with a book. It was a hardcover first edition and she said she got it on eBay. So that woman had a gift. She genuinely had a gift.

She was absolutely on to something. I mean, I think it's like someone of my age, I can absolutely relate to this, would go and the person sitting opposite me, exactly the same as you would say to me, they'd clock a look at me and they'd say, I think the name Mary is significant. You'd say, well, yes, because who of my age

doesn't have a granny or an auntie? I mean, it's ludicrous. I mean, I could be a psychic. And I think some, I read a book by a psychic who admitted all that. But I also think there could be some, I'd like to think there could be something. So, I lost my dad, like a lot of people, we began to think that butterflies represented dad. You know, there are a lot of butterflies everywhere. But I do remember when I walked out to my car on the anniversary of his death, two butterflies came straight at me and it was like they were caressing my cheeks, which made me all teary and think, there is something. And then there was another day when I was walking my Labrador and there was a butterfly

coming along with us and I was thinking, oh, his dad coming for a walk with us. And then my Labrador went, umph, and ate dad, ate the butterfly. So, conversations taking a turn. Well, I'm sure so my thing is I'm sort of between the two, between the butterflies caressing my cheeks and the Labrador eating the butterfly, which is a story dad would have loved. He would have enjoyed that. Yeah, so this, I don't know. I think some psychics, maybe they, or maybe they're just really intuitive or they're good at using that probability.

I think it's such a fascinating topic. Honour that, and I'm with you, I sort of want to believe there's something in it too. Yes. And I certainly couldn't rule out visiting a psychic myself. No, I'm not ruling anything out. And that's what I hope I did in the book. I didn't rule out anything. So you are someone who is, I mean, you're wildly popular. You're now incredibly well connected, you know, big bodies with Nicole Kidman and Meryl Streep. We've got Annette

Benning and Sam Neill in Apples Never Fall on BBC at the moment. But are there still times when you doubt yourself? I don't see why you should, by the way, but are there times? Yes, yes, definitely. Especially when I start a new book, I always go through that, the self-loathing stage and also just I feel sort of almost embarrassed when I sit down because I think look at you sitting down to write a story. It feels... You still think that? I do until the story has momentum. It feels like I've got to have so many pages and then

it starts to feel real and then it feels like okay so this is your job and you've got a contract so keep writing. Then it feels real but when, so this is your job and you've got a contract, so keep writing. Then it feels real. But when you're writing that first sentence, it just feels odd. But do you think, I don't want to add a sort of sexist note here, but do you think your male equivalents have those moments as well? I don't know, probably not. I do know that I have sometimes said that in my household where anybody comes in at any time, that if I was a man that everybody would be tiptoeing around the house. Because you were doing great things.

Yes, exactly. But then that's me because I guess I could make a fuss and say, no, the door must be shut. So that's me, because I guess I could make a fuss and say, no, the door must be shut. And so that's my choice. So you mean you get a bloke in to sort out your block sink, and he wouldn't think of keeping the noise down because one of the world's most successful novelists was hard at it. No, no, my husband said sometimes, oh, no, it's a hot desk, get out of the way.

We're all hot desking here, because I'm the only one with a printer. So if anybody needs to print anything there just get up get up I bet you've got a more efficient printer than me. I do struggle with printers. I know printers are terrible. They used to be better Yeah, what happened there? Again another topic for the podcast you can tell us what you think So I know it's a really annoying question for authors, but is the next one already underway? So it's a really annoying question for authors, but is the next one already underway? Well it is and normally I would say no, but I have said that I'm going to write a sequel to Big Little Lies.

Oh wow. Yes, to the book. Because when the book was written my children were little and that was about kids starting school and now my children are teenagers so they're providing a lot of material. But there were two series of the TV show, weren't there? Yes, and that's when I did do, I wrote a sort of treatment that was never published for season two. Right. But so now for the book I'm jumping ahead ten years.

I am in for that second in the Big Little Lies book series. Leanne Moriarty, Here One Moment, is out now and I'm sure you're already following it but the TV adaptation of her novel Apple's Never Fall is on the iPlayer now. You've seen it all already? I have, yes. I've gulped it. I think we probably, we just need to acknowledge that it does give us frankly a little bit of a tingle when someone we both really admire also listens to all of them.

Oh, it's amazing. I can't believe it. And I never ever want to get to that stage where I'm blasé about things like that because also it still blows my mind that we can like an author and we can then speak to them. From Australia. Yes. No, no. But it's just, you know, what a fantastic, fantastic thing

to be able to do. So don't think that we just brush it off as if we're head-fazzy at the drinks party. We don't. Oh gosh. Yeah, I love her writing because she tells stories about families, doesn't she, in such a clever, clever way. I think sometimes people are keen to dismiss that kind of plot and those kind of themes as pot boilers. But actually, I always think there's quite a depth to her writing that is what makes it go back to go back to a ball. Yeah, I think her understanding of human nature and some of the... And particularly women. Women in friendship groups as well.

The ambivalence that comes and frankly, sometimes more than ambivalence. So yes, I think she's a genius writer, an observer of complications, sometimes uncomfortable complications. The sharper edges that we ignore it are, well, we choose to ignore often because it's simply easier to do it. And yes, not all families are like the family she writes about like the Delaney's, Apples Never Fall. But I always think that a family group that's particularly linked to a sport, tennis in the case of that family, I always think they're probably...

Well no, I agree with you entirely. I think if your focus on your child is about your child winning, it's quite odd for everybody involved actually isn't it? I think you're right, I was only saying last night that my children are so unsporty, I've never watched the older one play or do anything because she was never in anything that I could have gone to watch and the younger one I watched her once in a primary school netball tournament, she didn't touch the ball. Oh okay the end I said, she did that really well. She said, I didn't touch the ball. I said, no, but there were times when you got very close to it. Because sometimes the longing to say the right thing, you just, you could never get it right anyway, can you? But can we just say as a caveat to that, that Judy Murray is one of our favourite people.

Yes, because she's a rather high achieving sporting parent, isn't she? But can we just say as a caveat to that that Judy Murray is one of our most favourite people? Well she's rather a high achieving sporting parent, isn't she? Yes, but she's got the winning thing with her sons, so maybe I'm going to have to give that a little bit more thought. Well I do think, I know there are people who used to say they would listen to us rambling when they were on the sidelines of sporting fixtures at the weekend watching their children play competitive sport. And honestly, you know what, Fie, there's a part of me that I wish I had been there.

I mean, perhaps not every week, but I wish I had had that opportunity, but it honestly just never came my way. Other strengths. Yeah. Fair enough. Jane and Fie at Times.Radio is our email address. We love hearing from you. You can pop in a new topic. You can carry on the themes we're talking about. And if you've nodded off, we don't really mind. No, well I mind. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every

day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music