Off Air... with Jane and Fi - See attached half giraffe

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

Jane and Fi discuss whether taxidermy can grow on you, or if it belongs in the family freezer. It's also the end of the penny farthing (for now...)They're also joined by Pat Nevin, former professional footballer, who's now a pundit and writer. Pat's latest book is called Football and How To Survive It.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail].  Assistant Producer: Megan McElroyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. I think that sounds like the kind of novel that you might write late in life. Jane Garvey's first novel blossom in the algorithm

i think it's a winner oh so we've just done quite a disturbing interview haven't we can i just have a cashew oh of course yeah um we're having some nuts this week on our fair it's not week no it isn't we've just got we've just got a tub of nuts. We have done a disturbing interview with, well, perhaps some of our American listeners can help us out here. What do you think? Yeah, so it's with this guy who runs a firearms company and shop, makes guns in Kansas. And he was telling us about his new user authentication gun

where it's kind of radio controlledcontrolled, the safety catch on it, so it will only fire if it connects with the ring that you're wearing and they send each other a vibe in between the two of them. And the idea is this will prevent... Accidental use of the gun, in particular kiddies playing with guns and shooting each other. Oh, God. Because that's the most common cause of death in America

for children and teens is guns which i just had no idea actually it was that bad and it's just very difficult to understand the pro-gun lobby and i don't want our inbox to be absolutely inundated with you know people trying to have a thoughtful discussion about it actually i know it's one of those arguments jane where it doesn't matter what anybody ever says to me about it. I know I'm not going to change my mind. No. Am I allowed to say that?

That's perfectly all right. Yeah. We don't understand the gun lobby. We just don't. But that's, it's all, is it the First Amendment in America? The right to bear arms. Is that the first one or the second? The second one is the one about free speech.

Or is that the first? I confess I'm showing my ignorance here. I don't know. So what's the right to silence? Fifth Amendment. That's the fifth. Yeah. So it's the first thing they put down.

Yeah. Okay. But you can understand that back in the day. Yeah. When, you know, you, well, well for a start you were an invading force there is that that's in mind um and guns just were more accepted we've just come to a different place haven't we well every also i don't know enough about american states having different laws and and some more or less outlaw weapons, don't they?

And others, almost everybody's got one. Open carry. Yeah. I mean, I remember one of my daughter's friends going on a gap year to Phoenix as part of her British university course. And, you know, just popping out for a loaf and encountering people with guns in the supermarket, which to, if you've grown up in Acton, it's quite a surprise. So this is our ignorance here. The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech. So the Second Amendment gives citizens the right to bear arms. So forgive our lack of knowledge

at least we knew we were ignorant of the of the amendments anyway um i just wanted to i just want to say it just left a bit slightly bad taste in my mouth actually and there's and of course we should always talk about these things there's no point in just saying oh i don't like that topic so we're not going to interview somebody about it but tom seemed lovely he said that him and his wife they didn't have a handgun in the house when their kiddies were young. You know, he probably would regard himself as a family man and a successful businessman

and a decent human being. Just still don't understand it, Tom. No, no, we just don't. But we're here to talk about stuffing animals. We are, which we don't really understand either. We can enjoy... I mean, Sad Otter is the winner, I think. Do you want to explain Sad Otter?

Sad Otter. Let me just get Sad Otter. So if you want to take a look at our Instagram, it's just Jane and Fi on the Instagram, and we've put up some pictures. And this one here we go. Yvette in Melbourne. Why have I said it like that? I don't know.

It sounded like she was lovelorn and desperate and she'd written in with a problem. Far from it. She hasn't got any problems. Okay, Yvette in Melbourne. Your discussion of taxidermy is not complete without you knowing about Sad Otter, a sadly missed exhibit at Melbourne Museum.

I've given you both varieties there. In 2021, while we were all tucked up in another lockdown, the museum announced they had good news and bad news. The good news, we were getting a triceratops and losing our wild exhibition. Packed with stuffed animals from around the

world, it contained everything, including the extinct thylacine, also known as the Tasmanian tiger. Cute, awkward conversations with children. But it was Sad Otter who everyone was sad to lose. A famous example of bad taxidermy. I hope you can open this link. Well, we were quite sad that we could because Sad Otter is extraordinary.

And Jane and I were saying, Yvette, that we just really hope that he was happy in life. Yes, I really hope so. You know, everybody whose fate it is to be stuffed and put in a museum is bound to be a bit sad. But we hope that there was maybe a picture of him being a bit happier in real life. But he's quite something.

Well, his expression now is, well, I'll tell you what he reminds me of he reminds me of a child um in a school photo in in the early years of primary school he's not having a good who's not having a good day he's possibly got gravy on their white polo shirt and has been sent to their surprise called in to have a photograph taken which their mother will treasure forever and put in a frame. But that's the sort of expression that Sad Otter is wearing. I think the museum was unwise to lose that exhibit because I can imagine that would just become a part

of everyone's childhood once seen, never forgotten. I think you're right. Keep your bad taxidermy coming. Fi read out a really good one on the radio show, which I think we should read out again, actually, because that was very good. But just while we're looking for that, when I say we, I mean her,

a quickie. My mum Iris was 80 on Thursday the 3rd of August and she listens to your podcast. She would love a shout out on the next pod, please, says Ben. Iris, I hope you had a cracking 80th on the 3rd and I'm very glad to have you amongst our listeners it's good to have you along hope you're getting something out of it

I left that one in the studio I might have thrown it away oh well I've got it, don't worry I just also want to mention Sinead I just wanted to say a thank you she says I'm a 46 year old I've never smoked I've just been diagnosed with lung cancer

and I'm discovering it's a cancer with a stigma so I'm currently having an all-inclusive holiday in hospital in Blackpool and I'm choosing to take you with me as I recover recover from a, I hope I get this right, a lobectomy. Your company is hitting the right note during my long hours of recovery. Sinead I'm delighted that we're helping just a little bit and I'm sorry, first of all I'm sorry that you're ill, I'm sorry that we're helping just a little bit. And I'm sorry, first of all, I'm sorry that you're ill. I'm sorry that you're in hospital. And I'm very sorry that you're discovering that lung cancer has a stigma.

I'd like to hear more about that. So if you're well enough, just send us another email to janeandfeeattimes.radio. Well, I think it's just a terrible assumption that it's slightly on you because you've smoked. But I think lung cancer, when you haven't smoked, is one of the most unfair hands of fate to come at you because, you know, I would imagine a lot of other people on the ward have smoked and you'll be thinking, hmm, why me? So, yes, all the best from us, Sinead.

And, yeah, I mean, do correspond with us throughout your time in recovery because it would be nice to hear how you go I found the taxidermy one oh brilliant can I yes please do okay dear Jane and Fee my dad once stumbled upon a dead tawny owl in a forest the new forest in fact quite apart from being dead it was a fine specimen no sign at all of old age or injury so dad got in touch with the Forestry Commission who having given it the once over for signs of poisoning said it was his to keep. What a happy coincidence. At the time dad was friends with a PhD student who was also a novice taxidermist

keen to take on a project. However he just had to finish his PhD. This meant the owl had to go somewhere so it went to live in our chest freezer, wrapped in a plastic bag, for about three years. Our chest freezer was always packed with loads of bread and joints. My mum was, and still is, a sucker for a yellow label from the supermarket. My siblings and I lived in fear of being asked to retrieve something from it. More than once, I pulled out the dead frozen owl, mistaking it for a loaf of wholemeal bread. The PhD did eventually get finished and the owl was duly stuffed.

Despite loud complaints from me and my siblings, it then lived on for some time on our piano and wings spread would look menacingly at us as we practised our scales. Faced with mutinous children, Dad, then a vicar in Southampton, put the owl at the top of his spire to scare off the pigeons. To our knowledge, it is still there. Well,

if you're anywhere near that parish church in Southampton and you are still aware of the stuffed owl doing its best to scare off the pigeons, you can let us know. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Big chest freezers full of stuff. I mean, they were a thing, weren't they? Weren't they just?

They really were. And you see them. They only ever crop up in crime drama now. Well, that's it. I completely associate them with one thing and one thing only. There's a body in the chest freezer. I was going to start that Annika show, but if you're telling me now that she talks to the camera,

I'm not sure now. I'm really not. So this is Nicola Walker's latest crime vehicle. Yeah, and I really like Nicola Walker. Yeah, she is amazing, but blimey, she's played coppers, hasn't she? She has. I mean, I think she could just probably just serve. I think she'd certainly...

It's called upon. She'd certainly know quite a lot of the rights of prisoners arrested in the middle of a night in a small market town. Can you repeat, you know, the thing they say when they arrest someone? Can you do it word for word? Whatever you say will be taken down in evidence. It may be used against you. But anything you... No, you see, I can't.

Anything you don't say but you choose to rely on in court. You later choose to rely on in court. No, you see, we can't do it. So we actually aren't, despite watching every crime show on television, neither of us are actually qualified coppers. No.

No. But one day we are going to try and launch ourselves as two incredibly diligent, very dull detectives with no hint of a bad family background or any addiction issues or any darkness lurking in our past. And we'll be the type of coppers that if we're on a car chase in our small market town and we clip somebody's wing mirror, we're going to stop and leave a note on their windscreen.

We'll unfortunately leave the people we're pursuing because we will stop to leave a note. We will stop. Yeah, and that's our kind of cop show. This one comes from Juliet, who says that she used to work at an auctioneer's and would regularly find herself confronted with some poor taxidermy creature while wandering the office.

See attached half giraffe. Yeah, I mean, that's... The half giraffe is by some... I mean, Sad Otter is both sad but also quite funny. But half a giraffe is just chilling. It is because, I mean, it just shouldn't have been halved. No. And Juliet goes on to say,

my favourite, however, is this angel wolf, which I came across in Paris earlier this year in the window of a restaurant. And it's really, and it's extraordinary. So, I mean, it is a stuffed wolf to which have been attached some presumably real feathers A stuffed wolf to which have been attached some presumably real feathers to give this kind of portmanteau of an animal. And may I say it's quite French?

Well, and speaking of French, here's an email. Dear Jane and Fee, when a listener clipped another motorist's wing mirror while driving in France, the motorist exclaimed, Jane found this unbelievable. Some British people seem to think that oh la la is a jokey wink wink, nudge nudge expression, but in French it's not. It's an exclamation of dismay, possibly of exasperation and incredulity, possibly of sympathy, depending on the context. I have lived in France for more than half my life. I've often

heard it and I've said it. Actually, it was a rather mild reaction by the French motorist, who might well have said something stronger, such as, no, I am not going to give examples. That's from Janet, who is somewhere in France, but she doesn't tell us exactly where. I'd like more from you, Janet. I want to know more about your life in France. And actually there is another one on the same subject, berating me for finding ooh-la-la faintly ridiculous, when in fact it is merely an expression of mild shock and indeed, as Janet says, can be sympathy as well. Yes, somebody had done quite a long interpretation,

hadn't they, in different languages of what ooh-la-la might be. I keep going past the half a giraffe. It's very unsettling. It is unsettling. Do take a look on Instagram where you can find all of the pictures of what we're talking about because you do need to see them actually and a lot of people say this is the stuff of nightmares but there's

also, in some of the instances there's something quite comical about them. Is it a kind thing to do, to stuff an animal? I mean if they've had a natural death there's something quite comical about them. Is it a kind thing to do, to stuff an animal? I mean, if they've had a natural death, there's nothing horrible going on there, is there? Should I add this to my list of things to feel bad about, is what I'm asking?

I think we can probably park this as something to feel bad about. I mean, I think it's very much... I mean, everybody... What we choose to keep in our houses, it's very personal, isn't it? Yes. I mean, as I've got older, I've become really keen on cushions. I mean, but I wasn't remotely interested 30, 40 years ago.

And I do like jugs and vases. I just do. I like throws. So you think you might come to like a stuffed door? So I'm wondering whether a stuffed tabby cat might actually be something I give house room to further down the line. Well, no, you're right to think that way. I don't, I mean, there was a moment when I did think, should I have Pinky Punks stuffed? Because he was our all time favourite pet.

And actually I left him a little bit too long in the front room. So what do you mean? Sorry, after death? Yes. So he was, so there was a sense about him, I thought, well I could keep, you know, I mean he's like that, he's very stiff as a board. So I could have him stuffed and

we could always have him curled up like that. Right, okay. But I decided not to. And obviously Brian and she's been renamed, so Barbara has now become Babra Kadabra. What a weird household you run They're too young to think about it. Last one

for the moment comes from Wisconsin from Denise She's at the creamery isn't she? She is at Highfield Farm Creamery. What a memory What a memory you've got. Never forget a listener When you were talking about taxidermy today I was reminded of a story my mother told me.

She and my dad visited old friends and when they got in the car to leave, my dad said, now, they have the kind of well-behaved dog I wouldn't mind having. It must have been a very high-quality taxidermy job, as my exasperated mother had to say. Oh, Edward, their dog died three years ago. They had him stuffed. Well, I mean, Dorora's behaviour is off the scale in terms of appallingness. So perhaps when she's stuffed, she will be better value all round.

Well, can I just say that if you do stuff Dora, I think you would have to do the world a favour and stuff her in an authentic pose. So you can't stuff her looking absolutely wonderful and meek and mild and as if she's just halfway through a purr. No, no, she'd have to be leaping up at somebody. Yes. With fangs out, claws ready to go.

She was involved in a scuffle. I didn't see anything, but I could just... Several bushes shook in the back garden by the easy grass yesterday afternoon. And do you know that unmistakable sound of a cat fight? It's just so peculiar, isn't it? It's otherworldly altogether. And then several minutes passed and she just strutted back into the house, having potentially, possibly killed a butterfly.

I don't think there was any more to it than that, because I don't think she'd take on another moggy. But it did sound like she might have done. I'd go and check the bushes. What, for a dead cat? Yeah. Which I could stop this evening. Oh no, I can't tonight, because I'm going to see Barbie. Oh good, we could talk about Barbie. We must talk about Greg Wallace's

Mincemeat Monday or whatever it was. I just want to say hello to Judy. She's emailing us from a road trip in Uganda, from the capital Kampala to the beautiful western part of the country. Now that sounds absolutely fascinating. I would love to know more about Uganda. Do email back Judy with just more about the country and what you've seen. I find it absolutely fascinating. She says the recent talk about family holidays has made me

laugh quite hard. I'm in a car right now. I'm whispering for effect with a loud and passionate brother-in-law. I am bracing myself for the four-day road trip, but I am enjoying time with my wider family. Congratulations. Can I say I like my brother-in-law? I don't have an issue with him at all. So you'll be all right on a long road trip. It's my sister.

Oh, your poor sister. No, she's not. I know, I'm going to extend. She likes to be mentioned. I'm going to extend the hand, the warm hand of younger sister friendship to Alison. She doesn't need it. Yeah, I think she does.

I think Alison and I could have a very, very long lunch. There may be booze involved. No, she's fine. No. No. I think we've got things to talk about. Dear Jane and Fee, I'm saying that because it's got double E on it.

I'm not economically active, but just over 12 months ago husband and father to our children and myself made the decision to move from rural worcestershire to hertfordshire to support our daughter 32 years old returning to work as a gp trainee after the birth of her son and her husband who's a corporate. They had to downsize and have a mortgage again because the husband's planned retirement is on hold. Should I go out to work or support daughter with two days a week of childcare

and be there for the pick-up the days when the nursery are sending the child home poorly, etc., and also supporting my elderly parents, 86 and 87, and my uncle, 94, and a two-and-a-half-hour journey each way at least once a week. And there's your problem. When am I meant to work? So this is all of the stuff about the government

trying to get economically inactive over-55s back to work. And there are just story after story after story of why people can't work. It's just not a choice. But also, our correspondent is working. She's doing a whole load of stuff. She's doing all of the work that you can't get anyone else to do. Or you'd feel happier if you did it rather than outsourcing it to somebody else.

And that, by the way, is no criticism whatsoever of people who employ people outside the family to look after their kids. It's something I did myself. And so I'm not knocking that. But yeah, I've got a real issue with this. It's not an attractive phrase, the economically inactive. And of course, there are some people who are just bone idle, but they are a vanishing minority of folk, I would suggest. Yeah. They really are. Sorry, just to... There are a couple of bits missing here. So just to say that the anonymous correspondent, it's them who had to downsize

and husbands planned retirement on hold, not her daughters. Yeah, because her daughters are trainee GPs. Yeah. I just wanted to make sure everyone got that. Oh, no, I think they have. But I think you get to a certain age and your caring responsibilities, not in every case, but they can come at you from every angle, can't they? Oh, definitely.

And the thing also with having a 94-year-old uncle and an 86- and an 87-year-old set of parents is that time is finite, isn't it? Oh, yeah. So, you know, you've got to look after them now because, let's be honest about it, in 10 years' time, it's not probably a decision

you're going to have to be making. So you are forced into it. Your hands are tied behind your back on something like that. You do say that, but my mum and dad, who I've mentioned before, are in sheltered housing,

went to a party there on Saturday night. I went to see them on Saturday, but they needed me to get out quite quickly because they were moving on to a function. So I left reasonably early. Don't get me started on Avanti West. And they went to a party and the oldest resident went along to the party, left at the same time as my parents, which is absolutely at the end of the party.

This lady is 107. Whoa. And she is still going out, still enjoying herself. Whoa. She's a phenomenal woman, actually. I've met her and she is just sparky and takes an interest in other people and just goes to stuff. She does things.

Well, do you know what? Lots of people say that that is one of the secrets to a very long life is to not be interested in yourself, but just to have a constant curiosity. I don't know how I'm going to manage I mean when I'm so inflexible I can't gaze at my own navel. What am I going to do? Will you make 60? I don't know.

That's me. It's only a couple of months. I'm sorry. I don't mean that at all. Advance warning 10am 13th of August 2023. What? What is it? Oh God, it's nothing to do with Penny Farthings, is it? This is the last mention of

Penny Farthings. I just have no idea. We are going to have an end to this, I think, now. It's got to be a joke. What is it? So the sign says World Championship Penny Farthing Hill Climb Time Trial. God. No. Beachy Head.

Oh, please. It's got to be a joke. I think it must be a joke. Please be safe if you are doing that. Yes. But then there's a Facebook site and there's a... Oh, well, maybe it's real. You can see a picture of a bloke on the Beachy Head World Championship Penny Farthing Hill Climb TT weekend 2023.

Best wishes, Melissa. I don't know. Good Lord. Enough. Enough. Okie-kokie. Our big guest is Pat Nevin, who is a former male professional footballer.

We should say congratulations to England, who, I have to say, scraped through to the quarterfinals of the Women's World Cup. Congratulations to Nigeria, who played so well and really, in truth, deserve to win today. But anyway, let's hear from Pat Nevin. He is 59 now. He was a brilliant winger. He was a player

at clubs, including in England Chelsea, Everton and Tranmere Rovers, but he played for a number of big Scottish clubs as well. Now, he was always something of an outsider. He was a big fan of music, a DJ, an intellectual, the person responsible for introducing Graham Lasseau to his favourite newspaper, The Guardian. Now Pat is a writer and

a pundit and his latest book is called Football and How to Survive It. Now in a previous book, he'd said that football was an unimportant but joyous thing and I asked him exactly what he meant by that. Well first of all, it's unimportant and joyous but for me, him exactly what he meant by that well first of all it's unimportant and joyous but for me for other people it may be something else but I absolutely wanted to keep that feeling because I played for the pure love of it and I've got this kind of concept and I've always had it since a kid that if you're doing something that you're loving doing particularly if it's a creative thing you'll be better at it if you're doing a creative thing through fear or worry you're going to be too stiff to do it

and that means your mind as well so I always wanted to hold on to that and I did, it took a long time to try to explain it to the football world in those days they weren't so open to ideals like that but yeah, it is and continues to be joyous but with the name of the second book you can tell it was a wee bit of a struggle sometimes well it's called pat nevin football

and how to survive it i think for people who are if you like civilians to football they might not realize how much of an unlikely professional player you were so can you just explain that you were a bit of an outsider? Well very much so. I suppose a good line is I tried really hard not to be a professional footballer and failed which is like an unusual position to take and it's not that I don't love the game

or playing the game but everything else around it really didn't appeal to me the fame, all the stuff that people seem to love about it that I find a bit superficial so i never had any time passion interest in that and i thought if i become a football and don't do something sensible like finish the degree i was doing then i may get dragged into this so i fought against it for a year or two and then thought no i'll a go, but I'll always continue to be myself. So whatever my interests are,

I will continue to have them. So if I want to go to London and go to, you know, be at the ballet, be at some indie band that no one's ever heard of, or reading serious literature, you know, if the boys want to wind me up, they can wind me up. I'm going to be me. And did they wind you up?

They tried, yeah. They're wasting their time, like, because I was quite confident in myself. You know, I come from that kind of Glaswegian, kind of autodidact background, where it's okay, we don't, there's no inverted snobbery, you know, involved in us. No snobbery

involved in us. Look, we want to better ourselves in any way possible. So anyone who can snide about that, I'm not, I've just shrugged my shoulders. I think the problem's yours. I mean, having said that, if you stand up, and that's a big part of the first book was this thing of, look, it's okay to be an outsider.

And I'm not a tub thumper these days, but the message is there all the way through it. You can be an outsider if you're strong in what you believe and what you stand up for I mean a classic example was back in the time when I was at Chelsea early on

you know I was one of the nicknames was weirdo right I took that as a compliment slightly but what I always understood was I'm normal you lot are all weird that's how I took it

and if you look at the way we look at life now particularly the way we look at life now, particularly the way we look at the racism within the culture at the time, I think it turns out I was the normal one. You better just remind people of who you played amongst when you were at Chelsea. So just put that in context for us. Oh yeah, that's a great point because people don't quite know. They had a terrible time

nearly went down to third tier and I came down along with Kerry Dixon was signed who became the top goal scorer

until some bloke called Lampard came around I don't know much about him he was quite good and a guy called David Speedy was playing at the time

up front myself and we're a team that kind of suddenly went from nowhere, nearly third tier to winning that division, getting to the Premier League and then kind of challenging over like an 18 to 12

to 18 month period which a lot of Chelsea fans who over the last few weeks have been going around talking and there are men and women of a certain age who are still a wee bit gobsmacked. And I keep on saying to them, look, don't be.

It was a magical time for them. But of course, it's always within the caveat that I think Chelsea got a wee bit better over the years after that. But for them, it was a magical time. But for me, it was special, not just for the football, but for everything else that was happening in life at the time. And the was I suppose this is a big story of both the books is in simple terms

you maybe read stuff by insiders inside football yeah and that's quite interesting for people that are into it well I'm not I'm a complete outsider inside football which gives you a complete different viewpoint of it so I'm seeing things that they think are normal, which I think are very strange indeed, and it was a joy writing it. Well, when you went to Everton, you write that you had a drink problem because you just didn't drink enough. I mean, that was the problem. You really

were considered terribly quirky, weren't you? Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with it being quirky or unusual or different or yourself. I mean, maybe within a different group of people, a bunch of students had to be perfectly normal. So you just, you were uplifted from this world and stuck in this other world.

Now, I love to underline, I didn't dislike the people within that other world, the football world. I just found them quite odd. And, you know, the strange moments would come where I'd be standing, you know, I mean, I'm sorry if you're having your lunch just now, but your dinner or whatever, or just between them for this show or the podcast.

But I was standing in a shower watching, you know, a six foot black guy and a six foot one inch white guy, totally naked, battering lumps out of each other. And I'm thinking, no, I'm sure I'm the normal one here. Because this is the kind of madness that would go on. That just left what I thought was a normal life. So, you know, yes, quirky, but for me, it all made sense. You did use, it really made me laugh,

that you used the word equidistant during a match once. Was that in conversation with an official, with another player? You were bickering about something. It's a brilliant comment because it happened all the time. distant during a match once. Was that in conversation with an official or with another player? It's a brilliant comment because it happened all the time. You really have to watch your language when you're playing football. So, you know, polysyllables are not a good idea generally in certain situations.

And they look at you as if you're speaking Greek. And there was this one time, just about to charge down a free kick and I'm on the edge of the wall and they've asked me to charge down, which is a bit stupid because I'm not... How tall are you?

Exactly, five foot six and a bit weedy. Okay. But quite quick. So I'm going to get there. And of course, I'm on an arc of 10 yards. And we all know, I've studied about maths. I'm on an arc. Referee shouts, get back, get back.

And the fans are going mad there's two minutes to go we're only one goal up it's really tense and I said no no it's okay I'm on an arc referee I'm 10 yards

and he shouts again you get back you're not 10 yards I said I am 10 yards I'm on an arc I'm on an arc we're equidistant and the whole thing

just stopped and went ooh equidistant is it and I thought oh I'm not at home here am I? And it was things like that all the time, I would bring something in and I would use

phrases that I would use, because I was very into I've kind of lived my life a wee bit backwards, I was very into sort of Russian and French literature when I was 18, 19 we all go through our Camus phase, what lots of young men do, existentialism you know, I should have called the book that existentialism my way

but I kind of come out of that world and then come in and now and again you drop your guard and you'd say the wrong thing and in the early days I wouldn't hide it but I just wouldn't bring that other world in and then after a while I thought

oh no this is great fun so I would kind of introduce that other world in and then after a while I thought oh no this is great fun so I would kind of introduce that other world to the players Who was the most receptive? My acolyte who I kind of trained up Mr Lusso he'd done well

he'd done okay and he came into Chelsea he was just a kid at the time and he was very much an outsider and this one little chap who walked in and turned out to be an extremely the time and he was very much an outsider. And this one little chap who walked in and turned out to be an extremely good player, but he was different. Nice little lad from Channel Islands. He read The Guardian, didn't he, famously?

Yeah, I gave him that. Oh, did you? I'm sounding like a bit of a nerd myself, actually. But when you went to Tranmere Rovers, now I know Tranmere because I'm from Liverpool and they played on a Friday night, which would allow some fans to then go to either Liverpool or Everton the following day.

And they were managed by a guy called John King, Johnny King, who you do bring to life very much in this book. And he just gave the most extraordinary team talks. But the real joy of if you're writing any book, I think, is you want good characters. See if it's a memoir and you're surrounded by good characters. It's brilliant. It's great fun.

I mean, I loved, loved writing about these characters. But I think Joanie King was right up there. One of the ones of you thinking, ooh, I cannot wait to get to him. Did you keep a diary at the time then? That's a great question. I didn't keep a really strong diary, but what I did is I wrote down his best metaphors.

Always badly mixed. And some of them were just, they were long soliloquies in the end with these. They would start off and say, right lads, we're on a rocket to the moon and we're going to get there, but we need some fuel. Remember, this is a team talk.

Everyone's looking completely blank. And, you know, we'll have trouble on the way and we might hit the rocks when we're in the sea and I'm going I thought we were on a rocket and then he moves on to the road and he's like wait a minute I'm lost now and as I said I've read everything

from Orwell to Joyce I still couldn't make head nor tail of King he's kind of stuff. This is like I'm in the atmosphere of a freezing cold Friday night at Prenton Park when your opponents could be, for example, just trying to think. Stoke, if you like, or they could Port Vale. But also we had some really quite blinding nights as well. And that's to talk it down a wee bit because in actual fact, although now it seems a long way away, that was actually golden era for that team.

Well, you nearly got promoted yeah three times three times in a row so you know that's something i was proud of those players for because they were all lovely players but the real joy of it is just that one step away from the the top level the elite level they were more normal and then they were kind of less baggage with them and they were easier to deal with. And I kind of loved that normality. So I kind of got on a little bit better. But that's one of the things between the two books was, was it them that were coming closer to me

or me that was coming slightly closer to them? But it didn't matter either way, as long as I was enjoying it. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books.

Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. We're talking today to the former professional footballer Pat Nevin.

Now, he is the first person to admit he owes an enormous amount to his wife, Annabelle, and we'll hear much more about his family life in a moment. But first, I put it to him that sometimes the excesses of men's football are a bit hard to stomach. Like the Man City players, after their treble win getting a private jet to take them to Ibiza for a single night and then they got a private jet back

to Manchester for their victory parade. I told Pat I found it a bit OTT and unnecessary and asked him what he made of it. Well, the fact that you actually watched it, I didn't. I wouldn't have bothered. It wouldn't have even crossed my mind to watch what happened. I watched the game.

I turned it on again for the trophy lift and that was it. All the other stuff, everything after it, I mean everything after it, has absolutely no interest to me and never, ever has. Whether it's Manchester City doing a treble or whether it was me playing a cup final. I don't care. What I did care about is the kind of pure love of the game and the actual playing. So the art of the

game, the beauty of the game and I can hear some Times listeners going what? Art? Beauty? in the game and I would argue strongly that it is there. Well I mean Jack Grealish is beautiful to watch and I suppose he's entitled to a good that it is there. Well, I mean, Jack Grealish is beautiful to watch, and I suppose he's entitled to a good time. It's a different... I mean, I will not tell people generally how it leveled at the time,

but I have my own interests in my own way as I'm looking at it, and I have the thing that I loved about football was the thing that I'm explaining, which is this joy of the creativity of it. Now, all the other side, which is, you know, it's just excess. It's just stuff added on top. And of course it makes me an outsider now,

people thinking, oh, possibly an old man, you're past your time. No, no, I always felt this way and I always acted this way. So I can look back and I can look back with times of watching or meeting Pele or playing against Maradona or you're watching Messi and all these players and I don't think well you were a great party goer no I think you were a beautiful footballer and that for me is the thing

I love about it and I think there are there are people out there who are not necessarily served by that because there's so much time building up to be something that I find really quite superficial, to be honest. Now, while you were living your dream, playing the game and moving all over the country as well, your wife Annabelle, who you reference a great deal throughout the book, was a complete stalwart in terms of her ability to keep the domestic show on the road.

And you really honour her for that, don't you? I mean, you keep saying, I couldn't have done this without her. Well, someone said to me, rather, I thought, it's really annoying when someone gets your stuff better than you do. You've written it. And someone said to me recently, your first book was a love letter to your dad and your second one's a love letter to your wife.

And it is. There is a lot of that. I didn't think of it in those terms when I was doing it, but if you're going to be honest about what's important to you at the time, and certainly Annabelle in those years when I was playing. And we had particular difficulties to deal with, and again, that was another reason why I wanted to write this, because my son Simon, he was diagnosed with autism at just over two years of age.

And of course, anyone who's gone through any problems, anyone who's not neurotypical, when it first happens, when it first hits, it's an incredible thing to go through, especially as knowledge then was unbelievably limited. Help was just not there. And it was a very, very lonely and difficult thing to go through. But it was harder for Annabelle loads harder for her

and she had to bear the brunt of a lot of it while I'd go out and work trying to get home as often as humanly possible and when I was writing the book I had to ask Simon about it what he felt about it and we

we never it was never hidden it was just private there's a very different very different feeling between those two words and those two feelings

but we talked about it at a time and thought no Simon decides when it's right when it's for him now I don't mind

if other people think a different way it just so happens that's the way I feel and I hope the people who write this don't come out thinking

oh or read this don't come out thinking or read this don't come out thinking oh it's a victim thing it's not there's so much joy in the end that we got from Simon but Annabelle

had to do all the heavy lifting the massive amount of the heavy lifting now your daughter Lucy is a doctor and you do you do acknowledge

that she's simply cleverer than you which you you suspected for quite some time she was a woman for a kick off she's a heavy man.

But it must be very difficult to be the other child, frankly, in a family set-up where one, just through no fault of their own, they require more attention. It's not uncommon, and you find it as you go along, working in the world. I mean, I've obviously worked with autistic charities all these years, quietly in the world I mean I've obviously worked with autistic charities all these years quietly in the background

but you'll often feel a sibling go into the caring industries it's just something they've had to deal with and live with, it's not uncommon, in fact it's very very common but I suppose to some degree Lucy was clever

caring human being anyway and the fact that she she knew nothing different that was her big brother at the start and maybe through those teen years maybe that's that's for a girl that was difficult maybe but she dealt with with with such beauty with such kindness and the two of them are mad they're great with each other so that's that's absolutely fine as well and it was just lovely to give some of those stories I couldn't get them all in there was one particular one

if you don't mind me saying I asked Annabelle to write a chapter and she wrote a piece for it anyway you know what it's like when you write books you have long discussions

with the publishers so it didn't make it which disappointed both Annabelle and I but we will make sure that that and other stories come in some other form because the journey we went through we just wanted to share with everybody and I was doing a talk just two nights ago and a young man came up and I talked about Simon and what it felt like when we found out and how he's progressed and so many

happy events happened to with simon as well as the difficulties he will always live with us and he is the most i was going to say important but the most dramatic effect in our lives is what what simon has been and this guy listened to it and he said i've just found out last week that my son is autistic and i don't know where to go and I said well well a read the book but b I'll do some more and just talk and try and get information for people because the one thing I wanted more than anything else then and we needed and we hadn't got was information and people to talk to so that's why really we're talking about it now and writing

about it now and for anyone who does dismiss football, there's a lovely bit in the book where you talk about the community that Simon has found at his club. Yeah. Tell me about that. Well, he has. I mean, the other thing to say is, just before going to that, is the reason, another reason why I mention this is because see when you have a shout and a ball at, you know, these footballers

out there, oh yeah, they might be on a lot of money, you know, these days. But they'll be going through things that you don't know you know, and they are human and it sounds like a really part thing to say but when I went through it, it was really it was tough, but people are always nice to me, but I always think, I'm fair

to players, not nice or too easy, just fair, always fair with players but moving on to Simon who finally discovered Hibernian and Sunshine and Leith

and following the Highbees he's found his community to a degree so have I with that club because that's the

team that I would follow in Scotland now but a lot of the difficulties that people who have autistic traits

or difficulties difficulties is the wrong word it's just a different way of looking at things they don't find their community or find it hard to find their community and Simon certainly with High Bees

and go to see gigs as well has found that and nothing or very little in this world makes me happier to see his happiness within that and that's fantastic and I should say that your continued love of music is also a delight because you, every single chapter in this book is named after a song

and you include one of my favourites, which is Rip It Up by Orange Juice, which I would argue is the best song of the 1980s. I don't care what anybody else says. No, we're all out there on. And the whole idea for, all the songs relate to each chapter, but there'll be some of them you might not know.

And I was deliberately trying to put an earworm in your head so that if you read this, then you either know it or you go and listen to it. And I've always had this love of music and certainly the first discussions about it because John Peel and I became great friends over the years as well. So all those stories of the love of music

and the joy of it and the sharing of it, it's just great to have a chance to do it on paper now. That is Pat Nevin who is, I think you could call him a polymath because he just has a lot of strings to his bow. We're still surprised

when footballers have intellectual capacity, aren't we? Well we are and also I think he makes the very good point there that in his own home life, it probably did seem to a lot of people who would occasionally berate him for his performances on the pitch

that he was living a dream life because he was earning a lot of money. He'd be the first to admit that by the standards of most fans, he was absolutely earning a lot of money. But at home, you know, his son has autism and it wasn't always easy for them to navigate his path and help him to get through his life. And they've had challenges. So I think it's really interesting. And it's also not at all insignificant, as he says,

that his daughter has become a doctor on the strength of growing up alongside a sibling with, you know, with a range of challenges. And apparently that isn't at all uncommon that the other child in the family or one of the other children in the family unit will pursue one of the caring professions. I think it's interesting. Yeah. And sometimes do you think that we're a bit too unsympathetic to footballers about the demands that their profession places on their family life. Our go-to place is always one of kind of, oh, they've got lots of money, so it's all right. But actually, for their wives and family... It must be awful. The constant weekends and the constant...

Christmases, Easter, all completely gone. And then you could just get a phone call to say, actually, you're going to play for Hibernian. We're selling you. Yes. And that means you're only, at the end of the day, you're just a bit of meat they can stick in a packet and send off somewhere else.

And also you really do have to have a think about what happens after the age of 35. Well, it used to be that you'd run a pub, but that's not... I mean, these days, of course, they earn so much money at the top end of the game that they don't need to worry so much. They can buy the pub. They could buy a whole string of pubs. But, of course, that's not always the solution.

It's not, no. We should say rest in peace to the world's wonkiest pub, which is outside Birmingham, isn't it? It's in the black country, I believe. Yes, and it's very famous because of the subsidence that meant you could actually watch a marble roll up the bar because the whole thing had tipped over so much. But after being...

They had a neighbourhood campaign, didn't they, to try and save it? Save it, yeah. But it had been bought by a property developer who was set to develop it and then it just went up in flames. Went up in flames. I don't know what you're hinting at, but I think I might know. I'm not hinting at anything.

It's very, very sad. It's very sad. It's gone up in flames. And did you do... Did you do cheers, Ben? His mum was 80. Yes, I've done that, V. I've wished the lady a very happy 80th birthday

for the 3rd of August. Sorry, I was just reading through... She got double bobble there. Said it again. I was reading through some other emails at the time. We'll save some of the other fantastic taxidermy stories for tomorrow. And I just wanted to do, why have I put what the actual on this one? It comes from Sharon, who says,

I currently live in New Mexico, but I'm originally from Bristol, and I listen to you when I'm out walking. I just listened to the episode where Fee mentioned winning the competition for guessing the number of sweets in a jar, and it's made her remember something, Jane. I think it was the summer of 1976, and we were on holiday in Devon. The Daily Mirror used to run a summer competition where you had to spot Chalky White.

Oh, yeah. He was at a different beach every day. There was a photo of the man's eyes in the paper and you had to approach random men on the beach with the slogan of the day to win 50 quid. Can I say they couldn't do that now, could they? No, and that's why I've written WTAF at the bottom of this. I spent that whole day running around the beach

approaching strangers with my copy saying, make my day the chalky way. And eventually I said it to one man and his reply was, finally, you ran past me four times and I won the money. I also remember that my mum felt bad that I found him when all five kids were running around all day looking. And she made me take everyone out to the Wimpy that night for a burger with the winnings.

Imagine these days letting your ten-year-old daughter run around all day approaching strangers on the beach. And Sharon also says, is the Wimpy burger chain still around? Oh, do you know, it isn't, is it? But I've had a banana split in there and a knickerbocker glory. Have you? Yeah, knickerbocker glory. Do they exist anymore? I'm sure that you can find a,

there'll be a vegan restaurant somewhere in Dalston doing a modern knickerbocker glory. Oh no, I don't want a modern. But that, can I say, the exquisite taste combination of whipped cream, banana and vanilla

with chocolate sauce with a cherry on top. Unbeatable. Yeah, I'm thinking there's a strawberry there somewhere. Oh no, I don't think so. Yeah. I had my 13th birthday party at the Wimpy.

Who went? My friends. Yeah, I know. Blame, shame, love. I'm still in touch with one. Actually, I'd like to wish Susie all the best because she's moving to Mexico. Oh, good luck there. Yeah, and we saw each other last week.

And actually, it's one of those moments where you think, I've been friends with you since we were eight. And there isn't anything that we haven't talked about over the last, whatever it is, 45 years. So I wish you well, Susie Maud. Right, that's it from us for today. Why is she going to Mexico? Is it a job?

No, she's going to start a new kind of phase of life. How fantastic. Very much like we did here at London Bridge, Jane. Yes, broadly life actually. How fantastic. Very much like we did here at London Bridge Jenny. Yes. Broadly similar. Right. Now Greta Gerwig has apparently made

a billion dollars or is it pounds at the box office but what really will count for Greta is whether I enjoy Barbie. So I'm going tonight. Okay. And I promise that we will talk about Greg Wallace's Miracle Meet sometime in maybe 2025

have a very good evening enjoy Barbie thank you, good evening well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio.

It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I know, sorry. I'm