Off Air... with Jane and Fi - See You Next Thursday! (with Ray Mears)

Episode Date: August 27, 2025

If you've seen an appallingly large sea monster with frightening eyes and a seaweed-like mane, and it's not your husband - please get in touch! Jane and Fi also cover pearly kings and queens, Robert Dyas cards, and eclectic funeral playlists. Plus, woodsman, instructor, and broadcaster Ray Mears discusses his latest book 'Outdoor Tracking Handbook: How to Find Anything in the Wild'. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_ukiIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What was the last time you went to a disco? A disco. Well, we had a kind of an impromptu disco at a 60th I went to in the summer. We put your handbags down, not around. Yes. It was at a private, I was going to say, facility. One of those friends. We were locked up. Can you not hear us?

Have you done that deliberately? get best of both worlds get to be in the room be down to hear it yeah can we pop a plea out there right at the start of the podcast

so when I read this I woke up at 538 this morning Jane's too early 538 it's twirley keep on waking up at the 530 oh I had a magic experience I woke up a minute

before my alarm went off just pause for a second why did you wake up at 538 no all you have to say is I'm sorry to hear that fee and then off you go Why did you? Was there a noise?

Was it a bin day? I've got no idea. I think it might be the damn foxes. Anyway, jet lag, I thought you were going to say. Jet lag from Suffolk. I don't know. You go back in time a little bit when you visit parts of Suffolk. Well.

No, you do. That's what I mean. You do. Yeah. It can feel very 1950s in parts of Suffolk. I don't know what I've picked on the 50s. I wasn't around in the 50s. But it's beautiful.

Beautiful, really beautiful, not knocking that at all. What happened to you at one minute to six? No, a minute before my alarm went off at a quarter to seven. At a quarter to seven. It's been day in East West Kensington. So the unmistakable, rackety sound of the lorries and the cheery cockney folk who are going about, I mean, listen, I wouldn't be without them.

And as you know, I always tip them at Christmas and I maintain excellent relations with that part of my local community. But they were quite noisy today Okay, do you have to be a cheery cockney bloke To be on the bin No, some of them are really grumpy Some of really grumpy That's a cliche corner there

I mean, to be honest I don't think cockneys are any cheery Than anybody else are they But actually what even is a cockney It's someone who's born within the sound of bow bells That's the definition Well that's the strict definition But I'm not sure that can apply to many people

who claim to be cockney. I don't know. Pearly kings and queens never met one, never talked to one. But I'd love to hear from people who know more about it. Well, living in the East End of London, as we have been doing for nearly 30 years now, there are still quite a few events, not many and obviously not as many as they used to be, where Pearly Kings and Queens turn out. And they're just a remarkable sight, really, really remarkable sight. Are they slightly the Morris dancers of the city? Very much so.

Yeah. Yes. What are they? Well, that's a very good question. I don't know whether you can appoint yourself to be a pearly king and a pearly queen or whether you have some kind of a vote for it. I honestly don't know. If you ever voted in a pearly monarch election, we'd like to hear from me.

And if you're a really grumpy cockney, then get yourself around to... Who also works on the bins? To Jane's house. Not mine. We welcome all binmen. I did see the other morning when I was out walking the Nents, which we have to do very early at the moment, and she can only take one walk a day now.

And if I don't manage to get that little burst of energy after breakfast, then it's completely gone for her. So we are marching around the streets very early. And I saw a lovely message to the binman on a brown bin where somebody had written, thank you very much. We really appreciate you. See you next Thursday or something like that. I thought that's a nice thing to do.

Yeah, that is good. Hello, Jane and Fee. I've been searching. See you next. See you next Thursday. Well, because our bins are collected on Thursdays. You haven't got it, don't worry. What?

What? See you. What's going on? Oh, never mind. Right, have you got an email? Are you sure they were? She's so innocent, everybody. It's very sweet.

No, well, they wouldn't have written that. Well, they wouldn't. No, and they certainly shouldn't. That's not where my head went to. No. And there was no kind of capital letter going on there. Honestly. You too. You're just like, you're just like great big pipe jugs of cold water. Stop it. Hello, Joan and Fee. I've been searching for the perfect book to gift to two 11-year-old girls, the daughters of close friends, to mark their move to secondary school. Despite extensive searching, the right thing has not revealed itself yet. It's got to the point where I'm tempted to turn to chap GPT. Don't. No. However, I'm not sure I'm ready to jump down that rabbit hole. This is Emma. So instead, I've turned to you, or should I say your listeners, much better to turn to face the listeners. I'm looking for a book of real quality, ideally, reasonably modern that has the potential to be special to the girls, inspire them and underline all the great things about reading. They're bright and mature for their age, but I don't want it to deal with topics that are too grown up.

There is time enough for that. I tried to think of one, and I genuinely couldn't. No. I mean, this isn't a book that's specific to the experience of changing schools? No, not at all. So Emma goes on to say the book cannot be too childish and I really want to avoid books

that play to the you can have everything message as in reality life is all about compromise and choosing one path inevitably excludes others. I'd like a book to make them think and open their minds to topics or new points of view. Okay, it'll have to be over to the hive mind. You could do worse than the entire works and collected essays of Christopher Hitchens.

God, certainly open your mind. There's some very good writing in that, book actually and then there's some right stuff I just couldn't get through it's enormous about three inches thick yes we'd love your ideas on that I think it's very very difficult that's an interesting age and we I mean most of us who loved reading were kind of reading above what was deemed if you like suitable for us at the age of 11 so I was by the time I got to so I read lady chatelie's lover and we've actually had an email about lady chatelie's lover today I think when I was 14 I honestly didn't understand it I knew it was yeah they were

There were scenes that I couldn't fully appreciate, but I didn't actually like it that much, but I was very proud of myself for reading it. That is not a book I would recommend to give to 11-year-olds, by the way. I'm not suggesting that. But I think it's, if you're seeking out a book at 11 for yourself, you're not going to pick something necessarily that is written for your age group, are you?

Because you're going to want to be a bit more adventurous. Maybe. I think, I'm not. not sure that I was that ambitious with my reading when I was 11. I'd got really, really stuck into crime. Crime? Were you in prison? So I'm pretty sure

I was busy. What crime books were you? Oh, just chomping my way through all of the Agatha Christie. Oh, Agatha Christie, yes. And I've done all of the Nancy Drews and all of that from courtesy of Enid Blyton. Derided now, but I did enjoy it at the time. Apologies for that.

if I need to... Do I need to apologise for that? Farina Blightney. I don't know. I mean, for many of us, she was the person who actually made us fall in love with reading. Yeah. Anyway, Agatha Christie, I know, has the same kind of layer sometimes placed upon her, but I'm not sure that I was trying to reach

for anything more wildly ambitious than that. But it's such a good question because, you know, the market now for young adult reading is just so vast. I wouldn't even know where to begin. And when I was trying to find books for my kids when they were this age, I found it really bewildering. And one of them set off on their own journey

and just managed to find exactly the right author. And in fact, the Percy Jackson books were a huge thing around the age of 11 for one of my kids. The other one, I was lost at sea very much like Emma as to what to try and recommend. So, yeah, chuck some interesting ones into the mix would be very grateful. I mean, we know that the statistics on the numbers of children and actually reading are really depressing.

But you're right, the choice, the variety, the great writers out there, they exist, but young people are not reading in anything like the way we used to. And it is partly because they just have... They've got so much else. Our options were slightly limited. Right. Saw this and thought of you,

says Alison, who is in Sydney in Australia. This is about the silly season, where journalism slightly goes on to its sunbed and collapses. in occasionally an alcohol-fuelled stupor but content still needs to be provided to the people who are available to consume it and this is not new

this has been going on forever because Alison in Sydney has found an article from the Saturday Review from July of 1861 and silly season was marked by unusual or sensational stories and one such late summer favourite that helped fill blank column inches

were sightings of sea serpents. I mean, this apparently was a regular feature, and there's one lovely reference to actually a much later article from 1871 from the Palmaal Gazette, which tells of a sea monster sighting at Diamond Rocks on Kilke in County Clare on the west coast of Ireland the previous month. Now, apparently a group of respectable ladies and gentlemen, and that's important they weren't drunks. They'd been enjoying a coastal walk when a sea monster suddenly loomed out of the water seven yards, 70 yards away. The creature is described as having a dreadful appearance, dreadful.

It had an enormous head, a mane of seaweed-like hair. Well, yeah, there you go. Large eyes and a vast body beneath the waves. How repulsive. The encounter was so horrific, one woman nearly fainted, but all the party were shaken. you would be. The sighting was first reported in the Limerick Chronicle

and it was illustrative, says the article of the tendency of the British press needing to fill space to accumulate sea serpent stories from all over the Atlantic. Right? Well, to be fair, County Clare isn't that far away and it does show, it does suggest

that this desire, I mean, this crazed desire in a way to see strange creatures that logically probably can't exist. And we've talked about big cats. I will mention our guest today is Ray Mears. Well, let's ask Ray what he's seen in the woods. Yeah, does he believe that big cats?

But go on. Do you know what we haven't had for quite a long time? Yeah. And why not? The Yetty. Well, I mean, yeah, but, and UFOs have slightly gone for a Burton. Yeah. I mean, they come and go.

And it's been donkeys years now since anyone from out there tried to reach us here on us. Well, maybe it's just too busy up there with all of the Teslas flying around and all of the weirdo satellites. They just can't get in a traffic jam waiting to come to a very specific desert in New Mexico or the woods outside Orford.

But there hasn't been it, hasn't? There hasn't. Standards. I mean, honestly, there hasn't been a Yeti sighting. You're quite right. What happened? What's happened?

He's lost it. Sometimes I managed to keep the facade up, but occasionally it just drops off from the wrong side of Hampshire. Right, this is Claire near Abergavenny. If you've seen a Yeti, by the way, do keep in touch. And if you've seen an appallingly large sea monster with frightening eyes of big body and seaweed like Maine,

and it's not your husband coming up the beach towards you. And we'd very much like to hear about that. It is possible that an Irish sea serpent just chose to put seaweed on their head. For the sheer hell of it. I mean, why not? Yeah, why not indeed. Long-time listener, first time email up. We've retired the jingle for the moment, so at ease, Claire.

Of all of the things I could email about, I've chosen funeral songs. Jane's mention of inappropriate songs played at funerals. Let's not go back there. Reminded me of the time quite a few years ago where my dad and I went along to the crematorium for a funeral. We'd arrived early and the funeral before ours was going on. The car park was absolutely full of motorbikes, so it seemed that the deceased person was a biker.

shortly after we arrived a song blasted out through the car park and I mean blasted it was Johnny Cash's song Ring of Fire lyrics says below I can't decide it was inappropriate or almost too appropriate for a crematorium I fell in to a burning ring of fire I went down down down and the flames went higher and it burns burns burns the ring of fire this was followed up by Bohemian Rhapsody also blasted out at full volume my own choice is a bit more sedate and it's a lovely one, Claire. I would like, don't dream it's over by Crowded House. Not because of any particular message. I just love the song. Love listening to you both. Any chance you can come to

South Wales sometime. We'd love to. We're on tour in 2026. Yes, we should definitely make an effort to go, I think Swansea would be good. That'd be lovely. Cardiff. Any of, there's a warm welcome there for anybody. Even us, I suspect you'd probably get quite a warm welcome. I just wanted to mention this from Anonymous who says, it's a long email, but never, never apologise for long emails. We do like hearing everything about you and people are incredibly willing to share all sorts of stuff and we don't take it for granted, trust me. She says, I've just managed to free myself from an emotionally abusive and coercive controlling marriage. Some of the things which happened during this time would raise more than an eyebrow. But whilst it was going on

and I was in the thick of it, I genuinely thought what was happening occurred in all relationships. The day after my husband left, I turned on the off-air playlist as I took the dog for a walk and the first song was one day like this by elbow that is the title isn't it it is yeah despite not having slept the night before and being emotionally exhausted the words it's looking like a beautiful day rang into my ears as the sun rose and I thought for the first time in a long time that life would be okay again in the future she says recent conversations about songs at funerals got me thinking about whether those in the congregation at my funeral might think think that this was appropriate. The playlist has become the soundtrack to my summer and I've

really enjoyed discovering new songs and listening to some absolute bangers, which I've forgotten about. Well, I'm glad that things are going so much better for you and thank you very much indeed for contacting us and letting us know that we have played, or the playlist has played a small part in getting you through at all. I do think that song is one of those ones and I heard Dawn French talking about it once, probably on Desert Island discs, a show from a all broadcaster that's getting far too many mentions on this podcast. And she really put her finger on it. She said every time she plays it, it feels like it's just her song.

And there are a couple of songs like that that I think really do it. Where I've got no connection to elbow. I've never even seen them live. I don't share a surname with Guy Garvey or anything like that. But when it's played, I do feel like it's my song. It's such a clever, clever thing to have been able to do. Yeah, it is a great song. I will say, like, they've got a song called,

everything's disco or it's all discos which for some reason I really like and I don't know what was the last time you went to a disco a disco well we had a kind of an impromptu disco at a 60th I went to in the summer you put your handbags down, not around with it I mean yes it was at a private I was going to say facility

one of those friends we were locked up but yeah it was good it was good to get down yeah get down on it don't like that song do you not No, I don't like calling the gang at all, I'm afraid.

Oh, dear me. I don't ruin them. Anyway, they were once so big. Now, this is going to be anonymous, and it is in response to an email that we had at the end of last week, and we were talking about consent. So here goes, because this is important.

I listened to your story, you told this morning, of the listener whose brother had been accused of sexual assault. It's a story very similar to one my son was adjacent to. his best friend from school was similarly accused many weeks after the event and it was a he said she said it took place when the boy was at university the police weren't involved and there was never a verdict on whether the assault had taken place but the boy and let's call him bob was asked to leave the university this was devastating for him he absolutely denied anything wrong had happened a few months later it was my son's 21st birthday and he was planning to have a party however my son's girlfriend and other female friends said they were boycott the party if Bob was there. The story is too long to go into now, but the upshot was that my son decided not to have a 21st, as if he invited Bob, it looked like he condoned the assault, and if he didn't invite Bob, it looked like he was betraying his friend. While having a party

or not sounds trivial, the conversations behind that decision were difficult and confronting. I think it's a tricky time for young people when serious life-changing circumstances arise out of the recollections of events which occurred under copious amounts of drugs and alcohol. What I would say, and hopefully this is of some comfort to the listener who told the story about her brother, the events with Bob were three years ago, and after a time away from our hometown, Bob was welcomed back both by the boys and the girls, and the story is now in the distant past. God knows how it got resolved. My son dismissed me with a none of your business. I'm past my useful date. Thank you very much indeed for sending that in, and of

Of course, we're not going to ask any more questions about that one or try and reveal where you're from or whatever because we respect your anonymity. But I know for a fact that increasingly on campus those kind of things have become extremely difficult. And I think it is difficult, Jane, if the police aren't involved. I completely understand why victims don't always want to go to the police. Apart from anything else, there is such a shocking clear-up rate

and a shocking process to go through with no guarantee of anything happening at the end that just put so many people off reporting something in the first place I think it is a nightmare for university authorities to then try and be the arbiters of some kind of justice I mean obviously you don't tell us what happened with the girl whether or not she then decided that she didn't want to pursue anything whether or not all of these people

decided that actually maybe hers wasn't the right account of what had happened. We don't know the other side to that story but I think actually I am glad for the sake of the boy if there's something that tells me if all of the girls had decided

actually he was a worthwhile person to stay in contact with I'm glad he managed to get his life back on course but there would be another side to that story and we don't know it's a bit hard to make any other comments about it really we really don't know do we i think what that does illustrate and i'd be very hesitant to pass any kind of comment really is is that the ripple effect that there are so many other people impacted by these things um entire communities in that case well massively so and and if and let's just

put this instance aside if there is a malicious allegation uh then the damage that that can do it really is massive and statistically there aren't very many malicious accusations made, certainly once things enter the judicial system and are, you know, exposed to scrutiny, more so for young men, because it is largely young men who are being accused of these things. Yeah, I mean, I would say, I'm sure I've said this before, there just aren't that many of them and the malicious allegations, I mean, there aren't many that actually get as far as a court appearance, I don't think.

and at the moment in Britain what I have to say what I'm more concerned about in a way is this, it's quite sudden but it's been pretty explosive over the last couple of weeks this sudden link between illegal immigration

and sexual assault on women and girls and this is almost feverish isn't it? This determination of the reform party to associate migrants with potentially well I mean basically they are saying women and girls are going to be attacked by these men they don't understand our ways and it's really really terrifying how quickly this has taken hold

and yes there is a court case at the moment and the man in question who isn't that young actually denies the charges against him and this is something that allegedly happened in Epping near one of the migrant hostels the court case is underway so obviously it's not something we can really talk about. But I'm not suggesting these things don't happen, but please let's not pretend that women and girls in Britain have just been completely safe up until very, very recently

when men started coming across on boats. Utter crap. Yeah. And I think it's a very valid point to make because if Nigel Farage and he gave a very long speech yesterday about the policies that reform would have about migration and deportation and he basically said, you know,

you're either on the side of keeping women and girls safe or you're colluding with people who don't and it's not neither all that and you can always put in that very important caveat backed up by statistics that women and girls have been unsafe for a very long time and you know there may be something in certain cases that could be adding to that fear but what he didn't bother to put that in he didn't bother to say that at all and you know just in if you looked through the court records at the uh at the court that's that case is going through, you would find many other cases of sexual assault and violence against women and girls. And it would have been committed by all kinds of people of all kinds

of ethnicities and all kinds of colours from the local community. Fact. It is grim but inescapable. The greatest threat posed to anybody is from their immediate family and somebody they're having a relationship with. That's the truth. But it's so terrifying how quickly. This has just taken hold. Anyway, I also watched the first episode of the jury last night. What did you think? Well, I mean, again, it's

probably very boring unless you've actually seen it, but people there on the jury they are properly rushing to judgment one way and the other, all the other, with incredible speed. And yes, it just shows you. I will probably watch the rest of it because I am rather invested now

and I do want to find out. There's obviously much more to the story, and I would quite like to No, you haven't seen them all, have you? I have not. No, okay. I have not. You have not, as you would say. Just listening, says Julianne in Belfast,

to your conversation about allergies and developing them later in life. I do love this. Well, I've developed an allergy to exercise in my 40s. I know this is serious. I know it's serious. Don't put on the funny voice. She says, I'm sure, like everyone else I tell, you're laughing.

And this is, so I did laugh when I first read it earlier on, but I appreciate this is serious. It's called exercise in. induced anaphylaxis and it is a thing. Now, I mean, this just seems so unfair. When I run or cycle, I start itching all over and eventually my throat starts closing. It's a source of hilarity in my family, God, as I'm not known for my athleticism. But I have been running park runs pre-pandemic and I was working up to a 10k. Well, look, I mean, Julianne, you sound pretty athletic to me. I can walk and do Pilates, but I have to take EpiPen's

with me. I'm just glad it was me who developed the allergy and not my husband who runs every day and is so grumpy if he misses even a day or two of running. We'd be divorced by now. Okay, so as anybody else, this is incredible. Is it the high octane exercise in particular? Because I, I mean, I do pilates and I would never claim to be someone who was exercising at a high level. But I'm more flexible than I've ever been. For what it's worth, I also bustle about. But I don't break into a sweat. Return to this email, yeah, I don't break into a sweat.

And that presumably, is it that sort of exercise? When your heart rate hits a certain level. Yeah, that is bringing on the anaphylaxis. Medical people need to get involved here. Well, Julian, I'm really, I am sorry. I wonder what, I mean, have you been to your GP? What have they said about it? She must have been.

I've never heard of it either, but that is terrifying. Yeah. And there are so many situations actually where then you'd be fearful of, you know, running to catch a bus or to return to our previous conversation being fearful out on the streets. So I hope it's not that bad. Can I just mention two lovely emails that came in last week, actually, about the exhibition at the Imperial War Museum about women and being used as sexual assault against women being used as a weapon of war. Joanna in Shrewsbury said, Like you, I was struck by the apparent lack of emails to you about the use of rape used and war to terrorise, humiliate and intimidate men and women.

When I found out about the exhibition, I booked my train ticket to London with the sole purpose of going to see it. Both of my daughters who live and work in London are coming with me, and my son is also joining me and will travel down from Shrewsbury with me. Like you, we feel this is such a horrifying aspect of war, which has kept carefully hidden, and left out of the news but why? Thank you for talking about it on the podcast

and once we've been to the exhibition I'll share any thoughts and feelings about it. Joanna, you're brilliant, please do. And this one came in from Isabel who says, Fee mentioned previously that nobody reacted after that interview regarding the exhibition and she was saddened by this lack of response.

I just wanted to give my truth which could be shared by many others. I am aware of the atrocities committed in conflicts around the world and rape being used as a weapon against women, men and children. And I know they're subjected to unimaginable suffering. I don't turn away from these realities, but I must admit they terrify me.

And at the same time, I can't comprehend how a human being could commit such violence. It's hard to speak about it, and the feeling of helplessness takes over me. I visited a concentration camp in Berlin. No birds flying over, slowly a feeling of oppression enveloped me. Once out, my friend and I could not talk.

we had no words, we just walked back submerged by a very haunting silence. I do care and I know many others do too. Thank you for reading these words. Well, Isabel, I completely agree with you. I mean, I really understand that and I think I know really that that was the reason for many people's silence. And I know that an awful lot of people would have switched off that interview because it is hard to have those kind of things in your head. So thank you for explaining that. And like I said at the time, I wasn't trying to kind of tell people off about it, but I just hope that people who wanted to engage and felt they could engage were willing to do so

and therefore we were just helping all of those people because the shame just shouldn't be on them. I mean, it's on the people who do these terrible things, isn't it? But we're still such a long way off that being reality, aren't we? And I think one of the things that we can all do is talk about a life after. such horrendous things and recognise that such horrendous things

are taking place all of the time and it might do just a little bit. That's what Christina Lamb the amazing foreign correspondent here at the Sunday Times really believes and that's why she was involved in the exhibition and wanted to talk about it. So thank you for those things. I felt heartened.

Yes, no, thank you very much and please do let us know about how you feel after you've seen the exhibition. What was the first email? Who was the first email? So that's Joanna Joanna. And kudos to your kids as well for going on with you. Yeah, well, absolutely. We're just briefly back to funerals,

but this is a two-point email from Tina who says, after sitting through the platitudes and nonsense of the priest's comments about my late philandering father who also had a second family, my mum Loretta's choice of funeral song, had us all smiling.

Now, I assume from that, Tina, that your mum had chosen this song for your late father at his funeral. Q side eyes and muffled sniggers as born free, wafted from the speakers, although spot on. This was far from her finest hour with funeral songs. She remarried in lockdown at the age of 81

and had a few years of real happiness with a non-falandering and lovely man until she also sadly died this march. Now she'd left a clear list of requests for us to honour her. Her coffin was carried into the crematorium to the strains of Tom Jones' What's New Pussycat. The moment of reflection. Love that.

The moment of reflection was accompanied by Return to Sender, by Elvis and the exit involved us all waving hankies at her coffin as requested oh no this is as we sang wish me luck as you wave me goodbye um even the rather po-faced catholic monseigneur conducting her service cracked up at this point she was an amazing woman and she knew the power of music to say what was needed or to create the emotional response she wanted rather than the rather samey anonymity of so many funerals but tina also wanted to say i was prompted to write originally because you mentioned communal living in later life. As a lesbian, now in my late 50s, myself and most of my friends chose to be child-free, not childless, and we've often spoken about buying a large building or an old sanatorium somewhere and throwing in our lots together to convert as we get older. For my generation of the LGBT Plus community and our friends, who are our chosen family, it's always been really important to be together, having provided love and support to each other over the years in ways similar or sometimes more supportive than some may get from their

own families growing around them. The absence of children in our older years does make for a potentially lonelier older existence. So this consideration is starting to feel alarmingly real. I think this is such a good point, Tina. Thank you for making it. She says, I wonder if any of your listeners know of similar setups or existing pathways to do this, or if there are any housing associations or organisations looking to replicate this model. This is especially important for the LGBTQ plus community because homophobia has no age limit and nobody wants to go back in the closet, which happens an awful lot in older age. Why? Well, I imagine if you enter certain sheltered housing and accommodation or care homes, of course you aren't choosing the people that you

share those spaces with and there may well be some extreme. homophobic people in their I mean people in their 80s and 90s who maybe didn't have that kind of homophobia challenged correctly during their earlier lives may well find it you know they may well be quite unpleasant towards you I think it's a very good point to make well Tina I'm pretty sure I've read about an LGBTQ plus specific sheltered housing scheme somewhere in London maybe it was somewhere else I don't know we'll certainly open that up and people will let us know. But I do think it's a good point. As you do, I mean, particularly gay couples now, I'm talking sort of couples in their 30s, their options to have a family are much greater than

were available 30 years ago. So not all of those people will age without children. But I appreciate you are child-free, not childless. It's very different. But there is an impact in later life. There's no doubt about it, which, by the way, is not to suggest that if you have had children, you're guaranteed. I mean, I mentioned to my younger child this morning something about putting me in a home and she said, no, no, you can live with and then she just inserted the name of my other child.

Oh, but not, so you're not the one offering to take me on then? She seemed complete, no, of course not. Because I'm your adored baby. I can't be expected to do it, but the other one will. Extraordinary, but there we are. And she compiled her quite considerable breakfast of two hard-boiled eggs on sourdough. lovely

there we go I mean it's an interesting one isn't it it is well you know the options are because that home

no you're not living with me the home we were hoping to go into the BBC home is now close to us it is very much close to us so you know

I've got to yeah I've got to just just plan this anyway thank you for that Tina and please do contact us

if you Because this whole communal living thing, I only know it from the perspective of the positive impact it's had on my elderly parents. Now, communal living for the very old, I think, can be wonderful. It's probably not for everybody, but it buys you a degree of there's some sort of security, there's a community there, there's a social life,

and you don't have to travel very far. Now, it isn't perfect. No, nobody's life is, but I'm kind of all for it, I think. but that's not something they've set up and what Tina's talking about is something else entirely, isn't it? And I think doing it the independent way so if you're just imagining

that you can live with friends and buy a property and slice it up and stuff that does come with so many other hurdles doesn't it? You know, who is going to be responsible for the maintenance? What happens if one of the couples

does get unwell? What happens when somebody dies? Whose kids are entitled to come? You know, there's a lot of, of stuff going down in that. Oh, God, there is, yeah. I think what might seem like a very appealing option perhaps falls down a bit on the detail.

I don't know. What if that couple you quite like turn out to be swingers? All of these things. All of these things, indeed. Right, what happens if you get Grumpy Cockney? Who's listened to this podcast? Oh, there won't be any of those. Difficult times. Lynn, very briefly, my last email

was about swimming off the coast of North Wales. It's a great pleasure of mine. I've often been stung by jellyfish. We mentioned, what was the name of the dog, 15 jellyfish. Bear. That's right. And when, Lynn says, when she's stung by jellyfish, she's only felt very mild stinging rather than it's rather like a nettle stick.

Yeah. Is that right? I had the same thing off Dunnitch last week. Well, she's got a, really? Yeah. She's got a top tip. Should this happen to you, a jellyfish sting? You should use a sharp edge, e.g. a credit card or a stone from the beach to scrape off any stings and then wash with seawater.

No pee is required. Right. but who has their credit card when they're in the sea? Can you use a debit card? Would my nectar card be alright? What about my loyalty card to the manicurist and pedic? Oh, I tell you what, I could use my Robert Dias card. Yes, I mean, that's the ultimate useful card, isn't it?

Well, it is. I mean, it's a kind of, it's kind of what it's there for, isn't it, to DIY things? I tell you what? Sort of yourself. You know you're of an age when you go into a place like Robert Dias, other facilities. exist and you just think oh my god I love this smell it's just the possibilities

but also when you think okay I'm here for a good 40 minutes I'm not rushing in and out at least right doing his best to look politely interested in all this is our guest this afternoon Ray Mears welcome love to see you Ray good afternoon it's nice to be on the show

afternoon or do now the book you're talking about is outdoor tracking handbook how to find anything in the wild. I think most people will know all about you, Ray, but I just wonder how you would describe yourself because yes, you've done TV shows, but you do so much more. So who are you, Ray Mears? I don't, I don't know. I try

to avoid pigeon holes, so I've got lots of hats I wear. Yeah, okay. And I just change between them as I get bored. Right. But you initially tried to, do you try to join the forces? I wanted to join the Royal Marines, but I didn't have eyesight that would meet the Royal Navy regulations of the day, so I went off

and did my own thing, and I've no regrets. about that. Yeah. When you say you did your own thing, that's slightly underselling what you did. So what did you go on to do at that point? Gosh, I don't. I've done all sorts.

I mean, I got involved in the world of expeditioning, which back in the 80s was, you know, a vibrant thing. And I've been able to see a lot of the world, I mean, in the most extraordinary way. Yeah. When do you think you felt at your most vulnerable when you were out there in the wilds? I don't feel vulnerable in the wild.

you're more vulnerable when you're around people. People are the most dangerous thing on the planet. So if you're going somewhere wild, sometimes it's, you know, when you're passing through, if you're going through the Amazon, it's when you're passing through places where there are gold mines or diamond mines or mineral extraction.

Those are the most dangerous places. So you have been to some of the officially most dangerous places on Earth, but as you point out, it's always the people there that pose the biggest threat. People are the biggest threat. Nature is very straightforward to deal with it. There's some dangerous animals on the planet.

But that's my job to know about them and to accord them the respects they deserve. I guess the most dangerous animals would be saltwater crocodile and the polar bear. I mean, these things will eat you. How close have you got to? Polar bears, I haven't, I've always kept my distance very wisely.

They're very smart animals. And because I don't want to have a negative encounter with an animal. I don't want to have a, even if I got eaten, it's likely the polar bear would be destroyed. So you don't want to have a negative encounter with wildlife. The whole point is to be able to experience being near to things without causing a problem. Crocodiles, that's a different story. They creep up on you. Do they? I mean, what sort of sound do they make as they grew up? A crocodile, if it's angry, hisses. And it's the most chilling hiss. If you imagine something out of Lord of the Rings, a dragon that's angry.

It makes you, we filmed once, we once filmed a five-meter crocodile that had in its mouth a huge pig, you know, an enormous pig. And I put a little aluminium boat in between me and where the crocodile wanted to be. And its first reaction was to try and submerge itself with the pig in its mouth. That's how strong these things are. Of course, it couldn't. And then it decided to let me know that I was. in the way and I should get out of the way and it hissed the most chilling hiss and the hiss conveys this message get out of the way or I will kill you and I very smartly started the engine

and got out of the way because you had no doubt it would kill you oh no doubt at all it would have dropped the pig for you come back for that or even me and they do have that capability the speed and power of those animals is unbelievable when when I first encountered crocodiles I didn't really know anything about them I thought it did And it was only many years later after lots of close encounters with crocodiles, which were very dangerous, and I managed to avoid any problems by luck more than judgment, that I made a documentary about crocodiles, and I then worked with the very top experts in Australia with crocodiles,

and I really came to understand their power. Most notably, going out into Darwin Harbour with the Harbour Patrol, who catch life cat capture the biggest crocodiles and relocate them. And we had caught a crocodile, a four-meter crocodile. They would argue and say it was three meters, 98 and a half centimetres long because they're that precise. And when they capture them, they tape the mouth shut with duct tape and then they take the rear legs back, which effectively immobilizes them.

But this crocodile was very powerful, and he just stretched his legs and broke the tape and got loose. And at that point, they can break your leg with their tail. It's so powerful. And the boat was barely longer than the crocodile. And it was quite an interesting moment. There's myself, a cameraman. I think you're underselling it a bit, there. Quite an interesting moment.

My first reaction was to say to the camera and film this, at which point he said, I've got the wrong lens on because of telly's gone very trendy. And everyone wants to use prime lenses. And, you know, the old way of having a wide zoom, you can't be it in moments like that. So you never got to see it. And then the expert said, I need to anesthetise it.

So I need you to stand on its head. So I stood on the head of the crocodile and pushed down on the roof of the boat. And it was lifting me like I didn't exist. And as moments like that, you really feel the power of the animal. It's staggering. Now, I'd sold this interview earlier in the program. It was relatively gentle. And it was going to be all about the majesty of all the mysteries of the British countryside.

You asked the question. Listen, I don't say, I'm not consistent. I mean, I threaten all sorts of things that never come to pass. This book is about tracking. And it's about, I mean, I'm really intrigued by an element of the book in which you say the need for humans to track has impacted the evolution of the human brain. Yeah. Now, can you just expand on that?

Yeah. I think, I think, so we're talking about visual tracking, follow it. This book is not about identifying tracks per se. It's about how to follow them, which is the hardest thing of all. and it's something that we do uniquely as a species and I think that's partly because we're bipedal we stand upright if you go for a walk with your dog

your dog will smell a deer but you see it and your eyesight is something like seven times better than a dog so you see much further but because we can look down we can see the animal and we can see the footprints we've been able to link the two together and this has developed I'm sure had a bearing on the development of our logic processing and how we connect tracks to the animal and how they link together.

And also then to start to analyze how things behave and why they behave their way they do and to predict where they might be. These are strongly developed processes within us. We all use on a daily basis. The difference is that in nature we're reading very fine traces on the ground. Whereas in our normal lives, we, you know, we think he's using. things that we're more familiar with today. But humans wouldn't be here if we hadn't been

able to track. We just wouldn't. Yeah, I think it takes us right back. We could find missing children, we could find the food we needed. It led us to explore new places. And I think the reasoning, the deductive reasoning that comes about as a result of having to track

is a very powerful intellectual ability. There's lots of nuggets in the book. And I was really intrigued by the fact that when a woman is pregnant and therefore heavier, her prince will be very different. She will walk in a different way. And is that a lifetime impact,

or does that lesson when you've actually, when the baby is calm? I can't answer that. I'm not good enough to answer that. I haven't tracked in communities where we all walk barefoot in sand. But if we had a Calahari Bushman here as a good tracker, they'll be able to tell you that, the answer to that straight off.

Okay, that's interesting. I mean, people can't hide the arrival of a child. No. You know, it's really interesting. Yeah. But you do talk about Aboriginal people and their incredible ability to track. And the theory that that's something to do with sand, which makes it easier? No, it does make it easier.

I mean, tracking on sand isn't always easy. People think it is. People always say, oh, yeah, it's much easier where they live. And that's not necessarily the case at all. What's different is the fluency with the, instead of getting little snippets of information, you get the whole manuscript. And so you can then piece together longer stories, longer trail. stories which are really interesting. Well the book does start with an incredible rescue of a young girl

thanks to a couple of Aboriginal trackers who I mean it was very upsetting to read that they weren't even interviewed afterwards even though without them she she wouldn't have lived. It's normally the case. It was Jimmy James and Daniel Moodoo two extraordinary pigeon jar of trackers who were called in to look for a little girl who'd been left for dead by an abductor who'd stabbed her three times in the chest. She was I think nine and she She was amazing. I mean, she'd done incredibly well. But after a massive police search, including the use of police dogs,

they'd given up and arrested the man, Charleston, with murder. And the next day, these two trackers were brought in, and within a few hours they'd found the girl alive. But if they hadn't found her that day, she wouldn't have survived. So what were they looking for precisely to lead them to her? When you're tracking, sometimes you're looking for footprints, ideally what you want of footprints, because you're in all the details there.

but normally you don't have footprints. What you have are disturbances, a changing colour in the ground where a foot has disturbed the substrate, a slightly crushed piece of vegetation, bits of grass when you brush through they push forwards but then can't go back to their original position.

Tiny things. A few grains of sand transferred into a place they shouldn't be by the passing foot. It is the most extraordinarily fine, detail that you're looking for and at first it seems impossible but with experience it you realize it is possible and the more times you spot something really significant that's tiny the stronger your belief in your ability becomes okay can we go back to the UK and let's say you are in some woodland

in the north of England and it's first thing in the morning what might you see or become aware of so if you're following someone in those circumstances the first thing you'd look for early in the morning would be dew. And dew is that's very good. You might also, because if it's grass, grass is moist in the morning and so that will hold its position

longer. And if you're looking and you see a trail that shines back at you then you're looking in the direction the trail was laid. Whereas if the trail is dark then you're looking in the direction from which it came because you're looking at the ends of the blades of grass. But of course as the wind gets up, these things disappear and then

you're left with a lot more subtle sign. So this may be a really stupid question, and forgive me, but if you're looking for an individual and the dew is still visible and hasn't been disturbed, you would then assume they hadn't been through there. That's correct. I mean, tracking's logical. It's easy to explain.

If there's no disturbance, they haven't been there. And if there is, then they have. What's difficult is, it's saying this is the significant trail that we're looking for. That's difficult. It's knowing that you're still following. the thread that you're after. That's the art. So you're looking to see, is this the right age?

An ageing sign takes many years to learn. That's something you learn by experience. We have what we call an age bracket. It's not like Tonto, the Lone Ranger, who says this is five minutes old. It doesn't work like that. You can say, well, this is more than an hour old, but less than so. You get this bracket of time. It's a window that you're looking at.

So this can only be taught by people who have lived it themselves and lived through it and used it. Yeah, really, you need to have done it. You have to have some sort of, you need to be taught by someone who knows how. Who taught you? Well, I guess I'm self-taught in a sense, but I've also had the opportunity to work with indigenous people all over the world.

The difference that that makes, you can teach yourself, you can teach yourself how to track from the book, but working with First Nations expert trackers, that defines what's possible. It's mind expanding. Yeah, I mean, Spore is. something that I hadn't. It's S-P-O-R. And it would be, well, that is what exactly? Detritus left by animals and humans. Spore is any disturbance to the natural order of the landscape.

So it's any change from a footprint, a drop of blood, a bent leaf, a bent twig, any trace that betrays the passage of the thing you're following. Today people mostly talk about sign, but spore is the old word. It's very, very ancient. I mean, the first use in the English language. which is in Beowulf when they talk about the blood spore of the monster grendel you know yeah just about coming back to me I can't say I revisit it as often as I should but you also talk about how there might be a bit of vegetation or maybe some leaves that don't belong in an environment but have been dragged there or taken there yeah no I get a classic example of that I was filming in Tanzania with

a Tanzania expert on rock art and we'd gone to this this rock overhang and and he's being filmed and talking about the rock art that's on the cave wall. I was interested in the leaves that were there. There were cast bean leaves at the cave site and they don't grow in that location they grow in the valleys and there were also some feathers, some chicken

feathers and this is a bit odd so I pointed this out to this professor of rock art and all of a sudden you know it's like this is incredible this is a ritual going on and he knew that much and as we were having this discussion one of the local guides looked a little awkward

and so we interrogated and we got the whole story how a naughty teenager had been taken up to the rock face and where the spirits dwell and there'd been ceremonies and they're basically scared him to tell him to behave

we don't know if it worked but we don't know whether it worked but what was really interesting was the cast of bean plants was the clue that led to the whole uncovery of this long story right can you track in the city you can track in the city

how you'd be surprised how well you can track in the city So part of tracking is getting to know the mind of the thing you're following. So once you understand, what we try ultimately to do is to understand the thing, if it's a person, the person we're following, so that we understand how they're likely to respond to certain situations. We try to work out what their purpose is. And you can put two and two together. It's quite interesting.

It's the sort of thing that surveillance officers do all the time. So yes, you can track in the city. Sometimes you even find footprints in the city that you can follow. I mean, one of the most exciting footprints I've ever found was a perfectly fresh leopards footprint at a petrol pump in Namibia. There was sand where someone had spilled petrol. And there was this perfect footprint and it was like it would come in and put a tiger in its tank. I thought you were going to say dorking. I was hoping for Basingston.

But can we ask about big cats in this country? It's been a bit of a theme on our podcast for the last week or something. And we talked to Rick Minter yesterday, big cat man himself. Do you believe that there are many big cats? Yes, I've seen some. Oh, now what have you seen? So the first big cat I saw was a jungle cat. I didn't know what it was.

The day before, I'd come across a baby rodeo that had been eaten, and I thought, well, this is very unusual. And I couldn't figure out what had eaten it. And the next day in the evening, this thing stepped out in front of me. I was in a Land Rover. It stood 15 feet in front of me. glare at the headlights, couldn't care less. I didn't even know what it was. I'd never seen a jungle

cat. Had to go and look it up. Where was this? This was in Stuttics. And later on, two years later, we discovered it was in private ownership and had been allowed to roam like a cat for 15 years. So, yeah, but I've seen other things too. A few years

ago, there's a farm I went to where they were losing large lambs on a regular basis and they were being eaten in six hours. All the ribs cracked through crunched through everything eaten and even caching even where they've been dragged in

and branches put over the top we put trail cameras up 12 12 cameras for weeks and weeks and we never never caught it but that was certainly a big animal yeah wow okay so all these people who

and it does tend to be in the summer they do say look I've seen a couple of sherbetts at lunchtime and I was looking over the Worcestershire countryside and what do you know I saw a big cat we shouldn't dismiss this stuff? I don't think you should dismiss it. I think that most people, most of the sightings are mistaken sightings. Mostly when you see pictures of footprints, they're dog tracks,

they're definitely not cat tracks. But these things are there and there are some people who are better observers than others and we should take this thing seriously. I haven't seen any evidence for mating behaviour. So I mean, I can only assume that somebody is maybe maliciously releasing these animals. Okay. And as another e-murer, I think to the podcast pointed out, I'm not sure whether we got around to reading it out. We recorded it earlier. They say they've never seen these big cat corpses on the road. I mean, if they were round and about, you'd imagine that would happen. Well, yes, you can say that. But more interestingly, that some of the abattoirs that are

dealing with the carcasses of things that are eaten, know that that's not normal. They know that this is not something that's been eaten by a fox. This is not something that's been eaten by badgers. Right. Can I ask a question about the awful wildfires at the moment on the North Yorkshire Moors? Could somebody, with your experience, go. So could you find the source of the fire or how it started, obviously, when it's safe to do it? I think that there are people who specialise in that. The Fire Brigade, there are forensic specialists who work on fire.

They will work out the source of the fire. They'll even work out how the fire was started, whether an accelerant was used, if it's malicious, and so on. There are real experts in that. What I might be able to do in that sort of place is find the trail that connects to it and where that came from and perhaps forensic evidence that could be used in a court of law to say, that shoe that was there. Right. So, I mean, you have in the past, you've worked with the military, haven't you, in Britain and elsewhere? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, a little bit vague about that. But it's not a thing I talk about. I mean, I think that some things aren't in the public

remains. No, sure. But your skills are ultra useful in any number of circumstances. They're real skills. I mean, that's the thing is that, of course, you see the nice, gentle side of things on television. But these skills can save lives. They can make our world a safer place. They're really important. I mean, they're important for rescue. They're important for protection of borders, for interdiction of poachers, there are a whole range of things that this skill can be used for. And, you know, our military, like a lot of military, still maintain that skill and people who can do these things. Yeah, because we are so tech-dependent, aren't we? And I can't be the only person. I despair at my children sometimes. They assume it will always

be that way and they can always just use ways. They don't need to read a map or nowhere, and the A-40 actually is, because the screen will just tell them where to go. I mean, does it concern you? Because you are getting right, right back to basics. It's a really good question. And I sometimes feel like a dinosaur because I carry the information I need in my head. And I can do all of things. I don't need a battery to make my skills work.

And I think that that's something we are losing. And I think we should retain. It's very important to always be able to use a map and compass and not be dependent on GPS. The proper navigator will use a GPS more efficient. Anyway, but interestingly in terms of tracking, you know, in the US border, they have the most phenomenal electronic sensor devices, trembleau switches, robot dogs patrolling the border. But the border patrol themselves will tell you that many, very often, these devices are not functioning because of electronic malfunctions. But tracking, what they call sign cutting, always works. Yeah, because as I mean, tech goes, I was going to use an expression we can't use.

Tech doesn't always work, does it fee? Tech sometimes fails. That's the one. But Ray's very important skills, always, always work. Love you to have you on the programme. Thank you. Absolutely fascinating. The book is called Outdoor Tracking Handbook, the Outdoor Tracking Handbook.

Honestly, you've sold one copy already to Daniel, who's WhatsApp to say so. So, job done. That is the brilliant Ray Mears, and his book is the Outdoor Tracking Handbook. essential to have on any bookshelf in either Dolston or East West Kensington. Well, yeah, I mean, it's spotting those, you have to know what to look for, don't you? I mean, in life.

In life generally, whether you're in Robert Dias, traversing the aisles, or indeed hacking your way across the unforgiving countryside. I like a bit of time in Raymere's company, though, because it's just so different, isn't it? Yeah, he seems, what can I say? he's the king of the outdoors

and he's very happy in his world he's rugged he wears khaki well and not everyone can no I don't have the right colouring for it which is why I've never taken up outdoor wildlife tracking or indeed join the armed forces right we're back tomorrow

thank you for putting up with this it's jane and fee at times dot radio goodbye Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free. Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.