Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Several socks short of a drawer (with David Baddiel and Sayeeda Warsi)

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Jane and Fi are talking LinkedIn, koalas taking themselves to hospital and why you should never trust a bank.They're joined by David Baddiel and Sayeeda Warsi to talk about their new podcast 'A Jew And Muslim Go There'If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I make myself a big mug of tea, check my bank balance, of course, because I think never trust the bank. Always watch every single morning. Get on the bank. Make sure the money that was in there last night is still in there. In answer to the question, do you want to know what to do? I didn't say yes. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen.

VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11.

And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. It's that Thursday feeling. Welcome to Off Air. Now, we have an interesting couple of guests later on. You are going to hear from David Baddiel and Sayyidah Varsi, who are respectively a Jewish comedian and a Muslim conservative politician. Although when you listen to Sayyidah Varsi these days, as David Baddiel points out in the conversation, she doesn't sound all that conservative anymore.

Well, I think it's fair to say she does say, I am a conservative conservative just can't support the current conservative government so uh she's interesting uh well they're both interesting and their podcast is is really educational if like me you're neither jewish nor muslim but but um just keen to just understand a bit more about everything so we'll hear from them a little bit later we will that was very professionally done i thought so i'm slightly surprising about everything. So we'll hear from them a little bit later. We will. That was very professionally done. I thought so.

And slightly surprising, some might say. Are we on air or are we off air? This is off air, but we're on air. Yeah. We're also in a really, really hot studio, aren't we? Yeah, I think it is slightly ad- But it's having the effect of making me more professional. Is it?

So perhaps that's a good thing. I think it's because we've got one of those very, very, very is slightly addling. But it's having the effect of making me more professional. Is it? So perhaps that's a good thing. I think it's because we've got one of those very, very, very bright lights on us. It's just a quick one from Hattie, and it refers to last week's International Women's Day. She is getting increasingly enraged as she looks at her LinkedIn feed from Friday of last week. Are you on LinkedIn? I'm not, no.

No, because I think if you're us, we can only be employed by about four people, can't we? So, you know, what's the point? I'm not quite sure what I'd... What would I gain from being on LinkedIn? I don't know. I did join it in its very early infancy and then came to exactly the same conclusion.

And also, I mean, sometimes it's one of the hazards of the work that we do, work, loose term for it, is that people really know where to find you. People have absolutely no problem in tracking you down. And if they can't find you, it suggests that you're really not any good at your job

because no one's asking you to do it. Yes, or, you know, they're several socks short of the full draw exactly so no i haven't looked at my linkedin feed probably since about 2004 and it's turned into something hasn't it it's the butt of jokes that i don't understand because i'm not on it but anyway look hattie has been looking at her feed and the hashtag international women's day was accompanied by endless photographs of cupcakes and flowers. As though it was some sort of buy one get one free with Mothering Sunday.

And they were close, weren't they? International Women's Day. Bumping up against each other this year. It did. But joined Mothering Sunday. Perhaps it's just a LinkedIn thing, but it was deeply depressing to think that the world of work is unable to conceive of helpful things to do for women besides giving them pink consumables if people in brackets men really want to support women they

could try some other ideas how about organizing a no holds barred q a with the hr and payroll departments or contributing to charities that support women and girls in countries where they have limited rights micro loans are another option for those who like their women. Entrepreneurial, most radical of all, perhaps men could listen to women and then arrange something supportive themselves instead of sending the women off to put on a project for a performative single day.

So you're speaking our truth, Hattie, and we absolutely agree with all of that. And I think that that key point actually is that it really matters in countries where there are limited rights and decreasing rights for women and girls. But the cupcake cashing in thing in this part of the world. I mean, yeah, God help the parts of the world.

Surely they wouldn't get cupcakes in those countries we could all name where women can barely do anything. I mean, please, God. They don't just get told to stay in the house but enjoy a cupcake. I mean, for God's sake. I just don't understand this one, so I'm hoping that you'll be able...

Oh, by the way, thank you very much to the person who emailed about Parky. We can't read it out, but we're very grateful. And I have realised I have a copy of his memoir, so that might be making its way onto the podcast next week. So we've got loads between us. We've got loads of autobiographies of men in broadcasting

and in fact the delightful Eve, who quite often produces this podcast, when I put a picture of my little stack up, she said, why have you got so many? It's just like, well, because there just haven't been very many women who've written autobiographies. You know, being able to distill their amazing seven decade careers in broadcasting into the pages of a hardback book, 1699, out in time for Christmas. And actually, Annie Nightingale's is the only one that I can remember reading.

And I was thinking, God, surely Sue McGregor must have written her book. She has, I've got that. Okay. I mean, if you were going to go through women in radio, just women in radio, who else's book would you hope to be able to read? Well, Sarah Cox recently has written her memoir, but actually that's much more about her childhood, her kind of farming background. That was called Till the Cows Come Home, wasn't it?

Good memory, yeah. I don't have that kind of farming title in my locker. When Fine Fair Shot, we could call it. Perhaps, but it's not quite the same thing. Anyway, we will bring you more details of Michael Parkinson next week, maybe. Welcome to Sophie, who joins us

from, oh, she's on LinkedIn, Fee. It says so at the bottom of the email. God, everyone's on LinkedIn. I know. It's only me, isn't it? For a month over Christmas and New Year, my family, me, my wife and two university-going sons went to Australia and they went to the Koala Hospital in Port Macquarie.

It's on the east coast. It's just north of Sydney. On the board, listing all the patients and the reasons why they were there against a couple were the words self-admitted. Well, that's surely not possible that a little koala struggles to the entrance of the hospital. But then the explanation's hilarious. Well, this is the bit I don't get. When we queried this with one of the volunteers, she said that when males can smell the opposite sex,

they'll come from far and wide, so they end up having quite a lot of men visiting the patients. Oh, does she mean by men there? She means male koala bears. So the local men could smell ill koala bears. So the local male koala bears, what would they do? Would they trot, bounce, run, climb? Just scurry.

All the way towards the hospital to be checked in. Just because they know they can smell a woman. Women bears inside. Yeah, OK. I mean, it made us chuckle, said Sophie. It's making me just puzzled, Sophie. We had a lovely time in the koala merch opportunity. Son B got me a lovely knitted koala tea cosy.

Well, that is a lovely memory. And I want to know more about koala hospitals. As you know, I've recently started following on the Insta a koala rescue service. And that is bringing me a great deal of pleasure. It's sad for the ego it's a nice way to start the day you know what i do first thing in the morning tea tea i make myself a big mug of tea check my bank balance of course because i think never trust the bank always watch every single morning get on the bank make sure the money that was in there last night is still in there i

in answer to the question do you want to do it i didn't say yes then i look just kept on coming i look at koala bear reels and soon it's time to go to work that's nice do you ever read in the morning like a book but oh no i don't i don't have time for books in the morning look at the paper okay i like to follow the news a little bit just before before the kiddies are up. Oh, yeah. So there's that really beautiful... It's precious time. 15 minutes, I go down and feed all the petting zoo. Well, that must take about an hour.

Yeah, it does take quite a lot of time. Make an enormous cup of coffee, go back to bed and read just with the quietness for 15 minutes. And I find it really properly, properly settles my head. Yeah. 15 minutes and I find it really properly, properly settles my head. And actually I'm just dipping in between the last of Claire Keegan's short stories in

Antarctica and the beginning of Stig Abel's latest detective novel. And depending on my mood and the day, which one I choose. You'll go one or the other will you? But do you know what, I genuinely think it helps my well-being for the whole day to just do a little bit of fiction at the beginning of the day. I can't do it at the end of the day anymore.

Can you read in bed at night? I can only do it at the end of the day. Okay. We're such different people, isn't it? We are. Isn't it fascinating? Isn't it? But I love the fact that you check your bank balance.

Oh, every single day. I don't understand people who don't because I just don't trust any of those large organisations Yeah but you could have stopped that sentence earlier I don't trust anybody Can I just say your glasses are filthy

I know, these are new glasses and I cannot keep them clean I really do struggle with glasses and they give you cleaning cloths and sprays, and I just can't get, I cannot get these clean. I agree with you. They're driving me insane. Well, why don't you use the cloths?

I've used the cloth today. Okay. It just doesn't work, does it? Well, it does, but I suppose, are you touching your frames? I don't know. Possibly I am. Right, well, I'll add that to my list of things to do first thing tomorrow morning.

Koala bear reels, check the bank balance, make the tea. Touch your frames. Clean my glasses. Keep up the chat, says Kirsty. Enjoy the banter and love the dick-lit suggestion from today's show. I don't remember using that term at all. Dick-lit? I think that must have been Mariella's programme.

Or was it a detective book? I don't know. Private dick. I mean, is that a term? Oh, I think. Or was it a detective book? I don't know. Private Dick. I mean, is that a term? Oh, I think so. Oh, okay. Sorry, I didn't know. Very chick lit.

It's tick lit. Right. I may have missed her interview, Life is Chaotic, but would love to hear you interview Kitty Flanagan. Her comedy Fisk is subtle and smart and perfectly pitched. Now, it is. Did you give it a go? No.

It's about a small town lawyer in Australia. Oh, okay. Sounds good. No, it is. Did you give it a go? No. It's about a small-town lawyer in Australia. Oh, OK, sounds good. No, I haven't. It is blissful, really, really blissful. Interestingly, it appears to appeal less to men than women. It would be good to hear her opinion as to why this is. Often, it seems, programmes led by men appear to have a general appeal, while those led by women often don't.

Well, that was the perception, wasn't it? Yes. That, you know, women will happily watch a male-led show, but men are simply not expected to engage with a female-led show. But I wonder whether that has changed largely through crime drama. Because if you think of the lead roles in the finest crime drama recently, so if you think of all of the Scandi Noirs... Happy Valley.

Yeah, but if you think of The Bridge and The Killing, they're female leads. Happy Valley, Line of Duty. Has a kind of shared lead. So I wonder whether that's helped shift the bar a little bit. I don't know. I'd love to know the gender breakdown.

That'd be good, wouldn't it? Popular show. Call the Midwife is still the biggest show on British television. I mean, men are allowed on Call the Midwife, but they're certainly not at the centre of the action. Yeah, the breakdown for that would be fascinating, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah. Still absolutely getting the viewers, rather.

Sorry, I'm so wireless-driven. It's all listening to me. You are. But also, could I just put a little bit of a shout-out just to anyone who could recommend something good on the terrestrial television or the streaming platforms at the moment because I'm stuffed. That's why we're watching Married at First Sight Australia

with the Psychobabble experts. Well, see, the truth about relationships is you really need to find truth in a relationship and there's no point having a relationship without truth. Really? Gosh, you're new qualified to say that. Seven years. Gosh, amazing. Have you seen all of those Boris Johnson documentaries now?

I have, yes. I think I'm only halfway through part two. So this is the rise and fall of Boris on Channel 4. Yeah, I mean, it's not doing a lot for my... I mean, I'm watching that last thing at night and getting incredibly tense and angry. Your blood pressure must be through the roof it'd be quite interesting to take it during the call uh and i was did i say to you the other day there was one little extract of him that made me i was sitting on the sofa and i found to my horror that my face without i mean in an involuntary sense had formed itself into a sort of indulgent half-smile because Boris was doing something blundering and bumbly,

and bumbly, funny man, floppy hair, ill-fitting suit, anti-tragic, help-me-mother kind of thing on a hillside, and I found myself reacting positively to it, and I had to give myself a sharp pinch. I bet. And just say, wake up! do not let that man work that crazy kind of magic on you because that was sort of his shtick wasn't it well I think watching the whole thing it makes you relive our recent history obviously and it made me feel sad

sad that so much had happened because of the ego and drive of one man and the program is very clever because they've got extraordinary access to people who really know him and undoubtedly his childhood was rough you know he adored his mother he was the uh eldest of the children uh she was admitted well she admitted herself didn't she to the Maudsley for severe mental health problems when he was only eight years old. And his father is, you know, what we in this country stupidly refer to as a character. I mean, I think there's a brutal element to his childhood

that he doesn't deny or those around him. But then, Jane, it's kind of like, well, lots of people have bad stuff in their locker from their childhood. And you make a choice in adult life what you do with that. And, you know, you are not allowed to use that throughout your adult life to treat other people badly. You're just not. No, you're not.

And what's also very telling is just the grip that Eton and Oxford University... I mean, you know, there's amazing footage in these documentaries. Do watch them if you haven't seen them and you'll find them on all four now, won't you, presumably. The young Michael Gove, the young David Cameron, the young Boris Johnson. They're still sort of all acting out their roles in an unending Oxford University psychodrama.

Well, I've never been to the Oxford Union, so I've never seen that kind of hall or the the process that they're doing when they have one of their debates and it is the house of commons yes exactly yeah it's the same furniture yeah they just they moved what is it an hour down the road to the houses of parliament and took it all up again do you think that our democracy our parliament would function incredibly differently if they did have to move to a new build just outside Leighton Buzzard? I think it would certainly...

It's a really interesting point. There has been talk, hasn't there, of moving parliament. And the building itself, extraordinary. Every time I go past it, sometimes late at night, you might be in an Uber or a cab. A little bit past. And often, just, you know know not pissed certainly not um maybe three quarters of a mile down that particular avenue and you suddenly you will cross you'll suddenly

see a major landmark by night and it's the houses of parliament i get really giddy i get so excitable so it's a beautiful building but But I think it would be fascinating if it could go on tour and just take up residency in places like Stockport, Leighton Buzzard, as you say, Wolverhampton. You know, let the people actually see what democracy looks and sounds like.

And let them see what the rest of us look like. Let's see who wants to be a part of that circus. So if you took away all of that grandeur, if you took away the fact that a certain type of person feels really at home in that type of building, I think it would be a fascinating experiment to see who pitches up. With all its crazed and arcane rules and regulations, there's so much about that world

that is basically simply an extension of a debating society. And I think you're right, I think it attracts a certain type of person, there's no much about that world that is basically simply an extension of a debating society. And I think you're right. I think it attracts a certain type of person. There's no doubt about it. I tell you what, if we've done nothing else this week, we've spread the word about G-Hit cards. Oh, my word. Good God almighty. If you haven't got one, I tell you what, if you just want to be just a little bit pompous with relatives and dear ones over the weekend,

just say very casually, just drop it into the conversation, do you have G-Hicks? Oh, you're going to the dodoin. Do you have a G-Hick? It will really annoy them because they won't have one and you'll be in on the action, you'll know all about them and it will just, just for a couple of minutes, just elevate yourself a little bit. But Steph says, I had also not heard about the G-Hick

until my mum told me a couple of weeks ago. You mentioned it was really easy to get on with the online form. Well, my mum is French with settled status in England and married to my British dad for over 40 years. And in her case, it was a bit of a palaver. I can't remember the ins and outs, but it involved sending off documents and much to-ing and fro-ing with forms and emails.

Presumably, though, she says that does make it fairly secure, because we did have an email yesterday from a listener who suggested it was perhaps too easy. But certainly, it doesn't appear to be all that easy for a French woman with settled status in England who's been married to a British man for over 40 years. Right, Steph, thank you for that. And I hope your mum's got her sorted by now. I think that's our legacy. We were talking about legacy on the programme yesterday because it was a very sensible suggestion, actually, wasn't it, from one of our political guests that Rishi Sunak might want to stay on as long as possible being Prime Minister because he wants

to affect some kind of legacy. And it's probably just, I say just, it's a huge thing, making the next generation a smoke-free generation. And I suppose if you've managed to tip up as Prime Minister, you probably do want to hit the history books over something, don't you? Yeah, I mean, let's just be realistic about what's likely to happen in this country over the next year or so. He is going to leave office. He's going to have to come up with something. And I just want to say...

I mean, of course, what he will always have, you cannot take this away from the man, is that he's Britain's first non-white prime minister. It's a massive thing. It's a colossal achievement. And anyway, I'm not actually... Interestingly, Saeed Abbas, he thinks he's slightly wasted that opportunity. But anyway, that's neither here nor there.

Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Because President Obama said the same thing after he had left office. And, you know, when George Floyd was murdered and the Black Lives Matter movement showed the horror of American racism, terrible episodes of history really erupted across America. He said that he didn't think that he had made enough of the fact that he was the first non-white leader of the free world in America. Yeah, but I guess lumping that responsibility on people of colour is a bit like women doing all the do for IWD. Well, isn't it? And also, you know, I think if that is what you kind of first foot with, then there's a certain type of person who's going,

they're just saying that. They're moving, they're talking anything. And it's not. That sounds a bit like me, that. It's a hard thing to do. Michelle is listening to us in West Didsbury in South Manchester. It's very specific, isn't it?

Well, Didsbury is terribly posh. Is it very posh? I should say so. Is West Didsbury posher than East Didsbury? I'm going to say it probably is. Okay. Good to know. Need I say more? I bet she's got a tiled splashback. Well, listen to this. A few years ago, it was the first warm evening of the year and we decided to eat in the garden.

Oh, lovely. The property behind us is converted into flats and a professional gardener turned up and spent two hours blowing things around with a petrol leaf blower. Why? says Michelle. And I'm with you. The leaf blower, just get a brush. And I hate it when councils are employing seven people

to leaf blow four leaves around London fields. The good news is all Britain's councils are gone bust, so they won't be employing any gardeners. So it should be completely silent. It's a horrible sound. Scant comfort, though, if you're a member of the gardening community who works for a council. Yes, let's hear it for them.

I'm sure you don't want to have to brush up individual leaves. Susan just has some thoughts about Married at First Sight and she said it's actually preferable to Naked Attraction. One day we'll talk about Naked Attraction. I've read that email and I'm afraid I couldn't read it out and I don't really want to. I'm not reading the rest of it.

I've watched that show but just once because I honestly do believe that once is enough. I couldn't watch even the once. I think it that show, but just once, because I honestly do believe that once is enough. I couldn't watch even the once. I think it's a horrible show. And Susan just says, I'd stick to Married at First Sight or watch the cat use the litter box.

I often find many a quiet evening is slightly ruined by the... It is inescapable and unmistakable, the sound of a cat positioning itself. Yes! Making merry with the litter and then putting themselves in prime position to do their business often in fact just as we start eating you think oh god do you have to do it now uh anyway we're building up to that time of year when dora might just go outside just once perhaps on that boiling hot day in mid-june um i like this email from a listener who says,

I agree with Jay Blades. This is about working with your hands. My parents didn't go to uni, but they brought us up to assume that we always would. A long story short here is that this correspondent really did do the do. She spent a decade behind a computer. She climbed the ladder.

She reduced her worth to a sales figure on a screen, my mental health deteriorating day by day, year on year. After a mental health breakdown during the pandemic finally left me unable to function, let alone work, I am now on a positive upward spiral thanks to my new part-time job working in a clothes shop. It was embarrassing to come out to my friends and family to have chosen the minimum wage over anything remotely using my degree and have the privilege of that being a choice but I haven't been so happy in my working life in decades. It's obvious I was always meant to be doing this working on my feet with loads of social interaction. I was never supposed to be in that boardroom and I wish options like hairdressing, landscaping,

carpentry etc had been offered to me but I wasn't on that track. I was expected to get 10 GCSEs. It just wasn't mentioned. I think that's really interesting and I'm so glad that you are now happier. I mean she does point out that she's been fortunate enough to have this as an option but how wonderful and also just how sad that you spent so long doing something you felt you had to do. And I do think, Jane, there's something a little bit wrong with a lot of the focus on exams at the moment. And I think it's sad that the pandemic didn't teach us a bit more about what kids are really like when they're out of that system.

Because I think for many, many, many kids going back into that system of 10 GCSEs and 4A levels and all of that, when actually it's not that they might have discovered, you know, that their happiness lay in tapestry work or carpentry or whatever, but they definitely were different weren't they out of the classroom yeah it just seems a missed opportunity that that we've gone straight back straight back onto that treadmill yeah for most children when some of them are simply not suited to no but i know lots of schools have tried incredibly hard to make sure that apprenticeships

are a bit more flagged up and that, you know, other things outside of that tight curriculum aren't made available. But I think we've got a long way to go. I mean, the way that we regard craft actually is a bit patronising. You know, to many, many people, it remains a glorious pastime, whereas it could have been a glorious way to actually spend your days if you were earning enough money. I was going to say, as long if you were earning enough money i was going

to say as long as you could earn and put the heating on but that's where jay blaze is amazing isn't it yeah no yeah i think he makes that very powerful point very that point very powerful voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day.

Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. So let's go on because I'm feeling I'm not so much the love from across the desk from kate but i'm saying can't look at her no it's it's just very much that will you get to the interview now face because i don't like to disappoint you kate so when i can see you going shut up i'm sorry our guests today are jewish comedian daviddiel and Baroness, no less, Saida Vasi, who is a Muslim and a former chair of the Conservative Party. Now, they are doing a podcast together and it is called A Jew and a Muslim Go There.

And obviously, at the moment, it could not be a better time, frankly, for this podcast to come to us. There are only three episodes so far in the series. I do urge you to give it a listen, even if you're neither Jewish nor a Muslim, because like me, you'll just learn a lot. And what's so good about this particular podcast is these two genuinely disagree. They never shouted each other.

There's no really unpleasant disagreement, but there are definite points where they simply don't meet and probably can't meet. But at least it's talked out and you feel it's a safe space. And I think a lot of us at the moment need something like this podcast. So I'm really glad it's here. So I asked Saeeda all about it. I think what I'm most proud of is the fact that David and I have created a space where we can have these conversations. So before we agree or disagree, just having the genuine, open, compassionate, kind, understanding space to say, this is how I feel, and being able to hear somebody else and

be able to acknowledge that that's how they feel, even if we disagree. And, you know, I come from the world of politics, where often it's either, you know, the yaboo of what goes on in the House of Commons, and can often be quite toxic and ideological and political. Or it's a 30 second clip on one of the broadcasts. And this, I think, is the kind of, and these issues that we're talking about, David and I are talking about, are far too complex to be dealt with, either on the floor of the commons and politically motivated or in a 30 second clip. They require a longer form of understanding to explore and listen to each other and often disagree, but often have our views challenged and find that our views are changed. often disagree but often have our views challenged and find that our views are changed and what has been changed uh in your mind david what's changed since you started doing this podcast well i just want to i'll answer that but i also just want to say it's been an incredibly

interesting experience because something that saeeda just said there about the yaboo of the commons which i've always hated but to fair, when someone says something that you violently disagree with, you sort of do immediately want to contradict it. And I find myself challenging myself to think, no, no, just let her speak, let her speak. I don't agree with it, but let her speak. And I've been able to do that, which is quite unnatural to me. But I think it's what's unusual when you listen to the podcast,

because you can probably feel the tension, but then we listen. And actually, I guess there's a number of of things I think the most interesting thing for me has been Saeeda who is a Muslim but also comes from government talking more because it's not my world about how she has felt that the Muslim community has been let down at the top I sort of come from it in a way from listening to online and listening to people in comedy and the arts and they tend to be, you know, very anti-Israel, more pro-Palestinian and whatever. But I accept that coming from government and listening to how, you know, essentially she feels that the support has been a bit, you know, unmitigated for Israel and all the rest of it. That's a part of it that I hadn't thought about as much. And so that's been a new light that's been shining on my brain.

And it's a really interesting day to talk to you both because of the government's definition of extremism and Michael Gove's work on this subject. And I just wonder, Saeeda, what your take is. I mean, the great quote from Michael Gove today is that it will help the government to choose our friends wisely. So what do you say to that? So to be fair, that phrase that Michael used this morning is a phrase that he used way back, I think in 2009, as part of a policy exchange report. And so what we've heard from Michael today is really Michael flying his kite and he's

tried to fly this kite on numerous occasions before. And those of us with more sane heads have prevailed on whether that was under a Cameron government or whether it was during the coalition years or whether it was when we had huge beasts like Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve and their huge legal brains around the table. Because in the end, I think, you know, if you look at what he's trying to do via this definition, it is trying to find a frame of words which allows us to act in a much more authoritarian way. So if we're going to really protect our freedoms

by being more authoritarian, haven't we actually lost the battle? I don't believe that our democracy is so fragile that protests on an issue where people in their minds are protesting for peace is going to undermine the very fabric of our democracy. If anything, the kind of things that undermine our democracy are running a Brexit campaign on a pile of lies or agreeing to international agreements and then breaking them or believing that the rule of law doesn't apply to the government or making statements at the dispatch box which fundamentally turn out to be true or ministers making accusations about academics for which they have to pay damages. Those kind of things are far more extreme and are

far more challenging to our democracy and the rule of law than what a few individual groups may say in some few individual protests. And to the subject of Frank Hester and his donation, what Frank Hester was reported to have said in that meeting, and he has apologised for what he said, we should say. for what he said, we should say. It is quite remarkable to me that the current Conservative party government is happy to hang on to his money. What do you think they should do? They've got to give the money back. You don't build election campaigns and you don't build political parties on the back of money where an individual has these views. I mean, in my view, if any election that is built upon money, which in itself is based upon kind of these divisive, toxic views,

is going to lead to divisive, toxic election campaigns. And I know that the party has more than enough money to be able to give back this £10 million donation. We should give it back and we should draw a very clear line in the sand that if you say the kind of things that this gentleman was saying, and it wasn't just

racist comments, you know, it was violent comments, then we should not be a part of that. And actually, it surprises me on a day that we're talking about extremism, it just seems bizarre that in a week where we can't say these racist extreme violent views are extreme but you know we'll say we'll just uh i think what michael gove's views this morning were was he believes in christian forgiveness but you know he clearly believes in christian forgiveness for people who might have extreme racist views if you're a white man but doesn't believe in christian forgiveness for else. Can I say something actually on this note a lot of the work that I've done in Jews Don't Count and elsewhere has been trying to make progressives and other people who maybe don't think about how it feels to Jews feel about what it would be like if things were said about

other minorities or whatever I would say in this case, it's clear to me that if someone had said about me, he makes me hate all Jewish men when he appears, that that would be clearly anti-Semitic. There's no question that that would be a racist thing to say. And whoever said that thing should be, you know, not part of polite society or of political society. And so it's really weird that they're hanging on to this money. Maybe the Tory party are just much more strapped for cash than we realise. What is odd is that perhaps

they will end up giving it back and then the conversation will move on to why did it take them so long to give the money back? I mean, they're just, Saeeda, they just seem to be so wrong-footed at every turn. The judgment is wrong.

It is. The judgment is wrong. You know, if you go back months and months now with almost any crisis, and it seems to be a kind of a weekly crisis at the moment on the issue of racism with the party, every single time their judgment on this is wrong. And politics is a lot about judgment, being able to make the right call at the right time, based upon a clear sense of who you are and what you believe. And that's why I keep saying that, unfortunately, you know, despite the fact that so many of us, whatever our political backgrounds were celebrated, the coming of Rishi Sunak, the moment when we had a Prime Minister of Colour in number 10, I think tragically, his tenure will be remembered as him presiding over a terribly racist period within the party.

David, how much more abuse have you received as a Jewish person since October the 7th? Oh, well, so it's quite hard to judge that, Jane, because I get so much abuse in general, certainly online. Actually, I don't get that much abuse IRL, if I can use that word. But I get a lot of abuse online. It's hard to judge because, you know, particularly Twitter or X has become more and more toxic. And there does seem to be one thing that seemed to happen with October the 7th and with the consequent war in Gaza, is that some things that are not really to do with that, but are to do with classical anti-Semitic tropes seem to become more sayable. So I've noticed more and more people openly saying,

well, Jews do control the media. Jews are rich and powerful. Jews politically, you know, are absolutely shutting down anything that might be pro-Palestinian or whatever. And whatever the truth of that, the saying of it in a very unlicensed way seems to have changed. There seems to be more awareness beforehand that maybe I should be concerned or self-conscious about the possibility of falling into anti-Semitic tropes. That seems to be less so now, I would say. And so

some of that comes to me as straightforward abuse. Some of it I just see happening elsewhere. And Saeeda, how do you attempt to explain that? I think if you look at the figures, Jane, 500% plus increase in anti-Semitic attacks, 300% plus increase in Islamophobic attacks. There is no doubt that what is happening in the Middle East is having a real impact on people's lives here, and particularly on Jewish communities and Muslim communities. It's one of the things actually we talk about in the latest podcast where we talk about blowback, you know, when there is something that is happening out there, which is done in the name of Islam, or something that is being done out there, which some people say is in the name of Judaism,

there is a blowback to that. So how do we deal with that? And one of the most important conversations and why actually this podcast is so important, why David and I felt this conversation needed to be happened is because so often we're talked about and we're not in the room and people will talk about what Jews are thinking

or what Muslims are thinking. Well, this is a Jew, a Muslim and a Jew saying this is what we're thinking and we're not just going to have the top line conversations we're actually going to go there we're going to go deep into these conversations and really try and find agreement when we can but also find disagreement but do it in a way which is kind and compassionate and understanding and allows us to go out for a halal kosher meal afterwards now i know i mean one of the sorry sorry one of the things that's just to agree with saeeda there we you know if you wouldn't listen to this one it's really their sparks fly in this one but

we do try and get find agreement as well and without any doubt one of the things that we can both speak about in our lived experience use a tired word is as Jews or Muslims having to somehow be responsible for things done like thousands of miles away by very violent people on either side that are totally not in our name but yet somehow or other it's felt by the world they are in our name and I think we both feel that's something that we have to push back on. I thought a moment where as somebody who is the classic English woolly liberal, earnestly listening and trying to learn something, I really felt uncomfortable when you, Saeeda, talked about the unimaginable suffering of the people of Gaza right now, the horror of seeing these images of starving children and the fact that you were wondering aloud to David what kind of conversations were

being had in Jewish homes around this subject and David how did you answer that? Well I asked it by saying that many Jewish people are feeling utterly appalled like anyone else and you know it's a complex question because I worry and I'm sure so I didn't mean it that way but I worry that it implies a sort of callousness on the part of some Jews. And, you know, what I talked about was, A, the diversity of Jews, how many Jews have spoken out about it. Jews are not a block. The racism happens when people imagine minorities as a block. We had Jonathan Glazer at the Oscars just now on a massive platform, you know, going far, going too far for some Jews, but certainly as a Jew speaking out against the

occupation and against the war in Gaza. So the notion that Jews are silent about this is not correct at all. There's also something which I didn't say on the podcast, which is there are some Jews who will still be, I think, hurting about a sense of silence from not just Muslims, but from the many communities, from many outlets, from progressives, from feminist organizations after October the 7th, that there was a feeling that there wasn't an outcry at that point. And some of them will no doubt still be feeling like, I don't know, a sort of repression of their own sympathy because of that. But I think in general, most Jews are just as appalled as anything else. I think what's wonderful about I think what's wonderful about this podcast though Jane is that you know the fact that we can

go behind that door with each other and say tell me what you're talking about when you're just amongst Jews or tell me what you're doing when you're just amongst Muslims so you know one of the really kind of tough questions that David asked me was, why is Palestine such a big thing for British Muslims? You know, why does it kind of inspire so many to take to the streets in ways that say other conflicts may not? So I think the fact that we give each other that permission to say, well, ask me what you want to ask me and what you think we're thinking. to say, well, ask me what you want to ask me and what you think we're thinking. I think that's what makes this podcast so powerful, because I think it's real and it's gritty and it's authentic

and it is from a lived experience, but it's also done in a genuine space of understanding rather than battle. And I think it's also worth saying there's a, it's not all 100% serious. I wouldn't want to put people off um you're very you're both funny there is there is plenty of humor and insight there um you're trying to learn a little bit you're going to trigger you know you're going to trigger David if you say that when you say you're both funny you know his day job is to be a comedian so when you call us both funny yeah but the fact is that I met Vahida properly I'd met her once before but I met her properly on a show called stand Up and Deliver for Stand Up to Cancer,

in which non-comedians, if I can use that word, were being mentored by comedians. And I had the brilliant Reverend Richard Coles. But I'll be honest with you, as soon as I saw Saeeda get on stage the first time, I thought, well, she's going to win. Because, you know, she is actually really funny, a brilliant public speaker, and she's got a story to tell. And those are important things for a comedian.

So, you know, I take my comic hat off to say. What I'd really like to hear you tackle is the difference between people from North London and people from the North, as Saeeda actually is, you know, a proper Wakefield. I mean, you know, absolutely, 100%. That's Northern England. You need to own it, Saeeda. I don't think you're doing it enough. Give him some stick.

He totally owns it. Goes on and on about it. I'm trying to get him. He's presently trying to drag me to Wakefield, yeah. I'm trying to get him up north, really, to kind of toughen him up a bit, and he'll come back a different person. Yeah, but to repeat David...

I'm just a North London... Lobby. Well, you are. I'm a met North London... Lovey, well, you are. I'm a metrosexual, you know, in North London, and clearly I need to be dragged to the North in some kind of absurd stereotype. I'll wear a flat cap if you like. And get a whippet. And you're not really a Tory anymore, are you, Saeeda?

I mean, David's on to something there. You know, I'm completely a Tory, but I'm completely conservative. The problem is the current Conservative Party is no longer Conservative. The current Conservative Party does not reflect what I consider to be one nation, decent centre-right views. It's not the Conservative Party that I served in the Cabinet with. You know, you only have to look at the people who sat around that table, William Hague, David, you know, Willits, Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve, Justin Greening, all of these people are conservative. They still consider themselves to be conservative, but do not recognise today's Conservative Party. So part of my battle is to continue to fight

to make sure that the Conservative Party that we have after the next general election starts to rebuild itself to be attractive to a new generation of aspirational centre-right people who feel that it could be their home because the current lot well I'm sorry they're not the Conservative Party anymore. Although they're the leader of the sorry I'm just going to interrupt to say that the leader of those people is now Foreign Secretary. And when he came back there was a hallelujah moment for me. And I think if he was Prime Minister, not Foreign Secretary, we would be heading in a very different direction. Who would you settle for as the next Tory leader then, Saeeda? It depends who's still

left on the back benches after the next election. I mean, we just don't know who's going to still be surviving after the next election. And so I think when I look at what the lineup is, I'll probably make my decision then. But there are so many, you know, leaders of the party that we should have had and never had, you know, Ken Clarke was a prime minister that we should have had and never had. I think, you know, people like Rory Stewart were leaders that we should have had and never had. We just need to find a way of being attractive to all of the United Kingdom and to all communities within the United Kingdom. And we just need to go back to some really simple things like fact and evidence, like

basing our policy on something that's real rather than just making it up as we go along. That is proud Northerner Saeeda Vasi and unashamed North London pampered metrosexual David Baddiel talking about their podcast, A Jew and a Muslim Go There, and as I say, highly recommended. So it's janeandfee at times.radio. If you'd like to be in touch with us, we'll take your emails on absolutely any subject under the sun.

We will announce the book club choice. We've made our choice after a very, very long... It's like a judging panel in the canteen at lunchtime today. So we'll announce that on Monday. We hope you have an absolutely lovely weekend. And, yes, any suggestions for good stuff to watch on TV? That's just a personal request from me. Have you tried the regional news? No, it doesn't come on on RHD.

And quite often I sit there for the full ten minutes looking at the sign that says... Do you mean it doesn't come on? This isn't available in your region yet. In your region? Yeah, I live in a region. You live in London. No, but that's a region.

But the regional TV won't come on. The news won't come on. OK. Is it just having a lie down? Nothing's happened. OK. Well, it was supposed to be true. I don't think it was that one day the BBC just announced,

no, there's no news today. I don't think that is apocryphal. Just nothing's happened. What we give for a day like that. Well, actually, I wouldn't give anything. Anyway, I've got to check my bank account. So goodbye, everybody, and have a lovely couple of days. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Money to bank. I know ladies don't get that.

A lady listener. I'm sorry. happening on your iPhone screen. Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.