Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Shacked up at the Dublin Castle (with Mina Smallman)

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

The heat in London is starting to get to Jane and Fi - there's a spat over holiday books, confusion with emails, and pondering of the concept of 'rawdogging' long-haul flights. Plus, Fi speaks to Mina Smallman, mother of Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman, about taking on the Met and her new book ‘A Better Tomorrow’. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Somebody had once known a bloke who once knew the drummer in Coldplay and said they could do a set there. Do you want to play at the closing ceremony? Yeah, come on, fellas. Yes, there was a little bit. That's a trifle under rehearsed. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on.

Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. So I've been informed that I'm not allowed to even touch the Robert Harris book.

No, no, I said you could touch it, but don't touch it before me. No, I think your exact words were, I'm taking that on holiday with me, so I'm doing the interview. There's only one copy, isn't there, Eve? Yeah. Also, it's about... It's kind of teamwork that goes on here, kids. Welcome to my world. I think Robert would probably give us another copy, wouldn't he? Yeah, he would. What's it about? Is it a historical one? Actually, it's about something I didn't know about. So, well, there's lots I don't

know about. It's about Robert, not Robert Asquith, Asquith, who was Prime Minister at the beginning of the First World War, and already I'm well out of my knowledge pool, and he had an affair with a younger woman. Don't know anything about it. You surprise me. Yeah, well, I know it probably... An older man in a position of power and a young woman.

And in the early part of the 20th century in Britain. Who knew such things could happen? Who's the young lady? Did she go on to have a great life? I'm hoping so. I'll tell you when I've read it. Yeah. So I just can't believe with Robert Harris

how he manages to so consistently move from, it's never even decade to decade, sometimes it's millennia, isn't it? And still create an amazing, believable backdrop. I mean, he's proper, proper super talented. He's written about modern hedge funds and shorting markets. The Civil War was his most recent one before this. And then all the way back to ancient times.

And then there was the Second Sleep that was about sort of a slightly dystopian future. Yeah, future. It's incredible, isn't it? I don't want to spoil that for people who are halfway through it before they get to that bit in the Second Sleep where they discover something. Anyway, perhaps if you are that person, I apologise. And then there was this book Conclave, which is coming, there's a film of that coming out very soon. Is there?

Yeah, that's about the election of the Pope. And I don't know how they're going to do that because the twist, well, how are they going to, anyway, there's quite a good twist in that. Right, I haven't read that, so don't tell me about the twist. As soon as we stop recording, I'll let you know. Okay. Claire Chambers has got another book out as we're on the subject of books. Yes.

So she was the author, is the author of small pleasures which that was her previous i really loved which both of us really really really loved and also because she had a 10 year gap didn't she between writing whatever the book was and i forgive me for not knowing which order they come in and small measure which i think is very interesting to kind of take 10 years out and then come back to it so um that it cheered cheered me up no end when that flopped through the letterbox it's a bit like the athlete uh georgia bell isn't it who got the bronze medal and we were told that she was for many years just twiddling her thumbs in a cyber security job uh and then just thought she'd go back to it but i think she was always a really really good athlete

she was right at the front of park run yeah yeah i don't i don't think she was just eating hobnobs and then thought oh sod it I'll go back to athletics. It doesn't work that way, does it? No, but there is a runner, isn't there, in our team GB squad who just excelled at park runs and just thought, yeah, maybe I'll go and win an Olympic medal and headed off to do that. So is that Ms Bell?

No, I don't think so. Well, she did do park run, but also she had been, you know, she was a really, really good athlete. It wasn't like me sitting on the sofa thinking, I could have a bash at that. Just give me a bit of time. I'll give up the broadcasting, even the podcasting. No, it wouldn't work.

So it's not an option open to all of us. Can we just briefly deal with some Olympic correspondence? Meredith, I enjoyed loads of the Olympic coverage, but the Team GB tracksuits hurt my eyes. They made each and every amazing Olympian body look shapeless and as if they just heaved themselves off the sofa to answer the door. Did you notice as well the outfits that we were wearing at the closing ceremony last night? Terrible shirt

really terrible shirt. I thought it was interesting they did explain, the commentators that it was marking the national flowers of the of England, Scotland it didn't work for me. No unfortunately. But I've really enjoyed, you know the medal

carrying bearer people who've been wearing the capis and the very nice kind of beige... Lovely trousers. High-waisted trousers. Very nice trousers. With the stripe down the side and a little polo shirt. I mean, that is absolutely proper French chic. And then so much of the rest of the stuff on the stage at the closing ceremony,

and obviously we know from the opening ceremony, not chic. Looks like Amazon Prime costume Halloween party. I've just read a review of the closing ceremony that said maybe no more interpretive dance. It did go on a bit too long and also because you just knew that all of those acrobats wearing those weird kind of, I mean, what were they meant to be?

Sperm. It was a weird outfit, wasn't it? That honestly never crossed my mind. Well, I'm sorry, it crossed mine. But you knew that they were going to hoik up the Olympic rings and, you know, it's a sporting event, so you just thought, do it quicker. You know, you wouldn't win any medals

if you were taking this long to get to the end of your event. I thought they might have learnt the lesson of the opening ceremony and made things go a bit quicker, but so they hadn't. Yes, definitely. And then we were treated to some really, I mean, to me, just baffling Euro pop. Dad rock. Well, I just went for a shower,

thinking that'll take care of a couple of minutes. They hadn't bothered to, they hadn't even bothered to put a decent clean pair of trousers on. They just looked like they'd shacked up at the Dublin Castle, you know, because somebody had once known a bloke who once knew the drummer in Coldplay who'd said they could do a set there. Do you want to play at the closing ceremony?

Yeah, come on, fellas. Yes, there was a little bit, lots of trifle under rehearsed. But anyway, it was good to hear the karaoke of Queen's We Are The Champions, which isn't a song I like, but in that setting, it worked. So that was good.

We do have someone who knows someone who knows someone who was at the Olympics. It's Claire. Son number three, child number four's girlfriend's sister is the amazing 4x100 ladies relay runner Amy Hunt. Now silver medalist, Amy Hunt. Claire, you practically won a medal yourself. Thank you very much for that link.

Congratulations. Well done. Now, quite a lot of people have got problems with wonky escalators. Marie says, I'm totally with you on the subject of the out-of-order escalator. There are two at the Barbican which are permanently out of action in both directions. We can't go, Jane. We can't go. Oh, aren't we performing there?

We're performing there in February. We have to cancel it. And if they're not back in action, I'm afraid we won't be there. I find the one going up marginally easier to scale. Well, so do I, Marie. It's the going down ones that just freak me out.

Sorry, so they're totally... They're just not working. They're not working. You have to clamber down. The descending one is virtually impossible. The rise is about twice the height of a normal step,

which sort of throws you off balance. I go down sideways hanging onto the rail. It's very awkward. I might try jumping next time. We'll report back. Well, don't jump, Marie. But that's exactly my problem.

The steps are just out of kilter with normal steppage. And I just don't like it. I don't like it at all. Adults riding bikes and dodgy hotel carpets comes in from Fiona, who says, gosh, what a lot of things to talk about from thursday's episode firstly adults not being able to ride a bike my grandfather thought bikes were dangerous and never allowed my mum or aunt to learn to ride one he once caught my aunt on her friend's bike and was furious get off the bike wasn't it that some gentlemen didn't like the idea of ladies

sitting astride the bike that was it wasn't it, wasn't it? Which takes us all the way back to side saddle. And somebody somewhere, a man, will have tried to make a push bike which you could ride side saddle and that will be in a museum somewhere, probably in Montrose. Actually, can I say, it's terribly sad. Montrose is hugely under threat at the moment

from coastal erosion. Oh dear. Yeah, they've only got about a couple of years left before they think that in a big storm the town would be completely submerged. Why have I not heard, where has it been reported? Well, it's been reported in... Certainly in Montrose, I would imagine. It's quite big in Angus. Does it have a local newspaper?

Yes. It's quite big in Angus. Does it have a local newspaper? Yes. Yeah, good. And obviously the coastal erosion of the East Coast is massively important. And one day it might even affect Donald Trump's golf course and then it really would be major news. But it's extraordinary to think that a whole town might have to go.

It's actually lovely Montrose. Well, that is a real shame. But then we were talking about this earlier in the office but um britain is likely with climate change to get wetter isn't it yeah i mean flooding is actually the greatest peril um you don't actually hear as much talk about that as you should do well i think we're lucky aren't we in london and the southeast because the thames barrier is a piece of engineering that has worked in this country. But do we know that it will work for 100 years? We don't know. No.

No. I'm sorry, I'd rather... But I think if you're in other parts of the country, so if you're in parts of Somerset and those low-lying parts of the country, you are talking of nothing else but flooding because they've been so severely affected. And a lot of houses have been built in the wrong place.

They've been built up in floodplains. So there's plenty to talk about there. Can I just return though to Fiona's email because she's managed to get so many different things into this. When my sister and I learnt to ride a bike my mum felt she was missing out so much that every evening for a whole summer she would go out onto the driveway and try to teach herself my poor mum never managed to get the hang of it and eventually admitted

defeat at one point she got an adult tricycle but she found it too heavy to maneuver so it sits to this day unloved in the garage she generally had a fantastic and loving relationship with her father but i don't think she's ever forgiven this rather bizarre restriction he imposed upon her as a child isn't that weird and also that is just i find that a little bit um teary behind the eyes to think that you tried to teach yourself to ride a bike because you need somebody holding you while you learn to push the pedals and fiona gets the fear going down non-moving escalators too it makes your eyes go funny and you lose your sense of perspective and think you're going to fall see also the carpet in the hallway of the hotel i'm currently staying in i wouldn't like to have to find my room after a few

drinks it's bad enough sober and that is truly terrible i'm going to leave it uh to jane uh to it to Jane to dig into her describe visions for the radio seminar and describe that. Oh my God. Isn't that terrible? I mean, that is an accident waiting to happen. That is quite nightmarish. Oh, there's lines going in all directions.

No, that's actually I wouldn't know how to tackle that. I'm not sure I described it but you certainly don't want to tackle it there are three steps going down and you've got straight lines at the bottom but there's a diagonal carpet going into it so your perspective I mean it looks like one of those deliberate

illusion things it's dazzling but not in a good way and it's very very wrong and Fiona would like a tote bag I missed out in Sheffield because I'm quite tall and I don't have four greyhounds. Just for the payoff line, you can have one, Fiona. I'm saying so.

A greyhound. A tote bag. Oh, right. We've still got many. Don't give away a greyhound. Did you read the bits and bobs over the weekend about this thing? I've written the name down. Raw dogging. I got asked about it on

the breakfast show oh did you because they were they were talking about it weren't they um it for anyone who doesn't know and when i talked about it at home i was put in my place oh that's been on tiktok for years it's not new right okay uh it's new to me um but would it this is in case you don't know this is the phenomenon where people endure travel of one sort or another is it usually planes usually planes and they simply sit still for the length of the entire journey yep and some take it to the nth degree where they don't they don't go to the toilet and they don't ingest food well i mean i they don't get up to go to the loo oh god and they don't take on board any food,

which is just stupid and a bit dangerous. Yeah, it's both of those things. And also, I have to say that I think it's utterly, utterly pointless. What are you achieving? And if you want a real test on an aeroplane, go on board with a baby that you're breastfeeding and a toddler on your own, and then tell me that you're tough enough.

I mean, because it's just bollocks, this, isn't it? But also, it's the need for people to witness the bollocks. I mean, by all means, do it. But what are you then posting on TikTok? Look at me being inanimate. And they were trying to sell it on The Breakfast Show as something that was a little bit mindful. Not stigmasma, but the person who came on to talk about it.

The people who came and big it up. Yeah, OK. So they actually talked to an expert. I think they talked to someone who had done it. But my point was, you know, we used to have to travel so much, very, very long ways as kids because Dad lived abroad. And it was before you had that in-flight entertainment in the seat in front of you. before you had that in-flight entertainment in the seat in front of you.

So you were lucky if somebody put on a Donald Sutherland B movie at the front of the plane and gave you those terrible kind of stethoscope plastic headphones and then it would always be slightly out of sync so Donald would be a couple of moments behind what he was saying. He died recently, didn't he? Then you'd be in a non-smoking section behind a smoking section so you couldn't really see anything and your life was limited by five years just on an eight hour journey in between baghdad and beijing and you didn't want to eat the food because it would probably make you

a bit unwell and most of the toilets had got vomit in them so you do that and put that on thank you judith charmers um so little did you and your sister know, but you were sort of doing a primitive form of raw dogging. Yes, but I've not seen it on TikTok, so I'm not really on the TikTok. Have you been made to watch this? I was told that people have been told. Just the other day, for example,

I made some whipped fetter because I'd seen it in a Simon Kerridge book. And again, I was told... Tom Kerridge. Tom Kerridge, yes. Didn't need Simon. People have been whipping feta for years. It's not new.

It's out there on the socials. Presumably the Greeks were at it long before the rest of us cottoned on. It is rather nice, I have to say. Do you literally just whip it? You get a lump of feta with some Greek yoghurt and a bit of olive oil, and off you go. And what consistency are you looking for? It's like I'm reminded faintly of cottage cheese.

But cottage cheese was that most British of things, whereas this has definitely got a hint of the med about it. But it wouldn't have the chunk of the cottage cheese, would it? Well, it depends on how good your food processor is. OK. Yeah, perhaps I didn't put it on for long enough because mine's quite lumpy okay but perhaps i just want to be reminded secretly of cottage cheese i wasn't aware that i did i have to say do you remember when cottage cheese started then appearing as cottage cheese with pineapple yes and chives and it was often used by people who were on a sort of

70s and early 80s diet yes that was me for about the whole of 1982 oh lord um i want to mention an avid listener who says uh listen to the conversation with john homes my gp was brilliant when i went to them with post-menopausal bleeding now apparently this is a red flag for ovarian cancer and he put me on a fast track referral i was seen within 10 days at my local hospital and scanned when i I saw the consultant, she said actually nothing serious was amiss. Of course, apart from being very relieved, I also felt a bit guilty because I'd wasted people's time. But she was so nice and was very clear if I got repeat symptoms in the future, I had to go back to the GP. Just because it was nothing this time doesn't mean I should assume it would be the same diagnosis in the future.

The message I got was that testing early was really important and no one should ignore worrying symptoms and hope they'll go away. I think that's a very, very good, strong point. And thank you, avid listener, for making it. Yes, I think so too. And one of the many good points that John Holmes made

was that your GP would so much rather see you right at the beginning of something that they can then solve and feel great about than see you when it's too far down the line and feel terrible about because they can't help you. And that is just a very logical thought process, isn't it? It is. So run with it.

Now, everyone's got to pay attention to this one from Claire. Hello, both. I have an elderly friend who uses that phrase and I quite like it, but I don't remember ever using it, which isn't the same as not ever having used it. I don't understand, but I've read it out, Claire. Here we go. I've been itching to write with this info and now I've got a legitimate reason to because Jane asked if anyone knew an Olympian. So, son number three in brackets, child number four's girlfriend's sister is the amazing 4x100 ladies relay runner. Have you read this?

Yeah. Oh, it's good, though. It's got an Olympic theme. You just didn't read the bit that I would have read down at the bottom. Why did you stop? Because I wanted the Olympics. Well, carry on. Let's hear what she says at the end.

Well, no, but you didn't get to the Enid Blyton title fiver together again as a caption. No. Because she's got the thing. Oh, that's so funny, isn't it? So the thing that I really noticed about this email was just how many children Claire's got. No, she's got a lot of kids. And how they're all going on holiday together. Foolish, but but wonderful yes same time

okay so where did you get to with that i just i i was at the olympic section of our carefully planned podcast okay just i'll just reference that just okay so just well should i do the rest of it it is hot in london today i need to tell people this i've been wilting since dawn's crack well also but claire has just realised that she's left the camping cake in Betty Back Home. Oh, God, no. Bloody hell. Yep. And one last thing. What was going on with the nails of the women in

that race? Surely that can't be helping when passing or receiving a baton. No, hang on a sec. A baton. Baton. And I would agree with her there. So that just, do you know what, Claire? It tells you everything you need to know. Jane and I have very different views on the world. But it is a bit odd. The nails.

The nails with the baton. I mean, obviously, I remember doing relays at school, very briefly. They are so much harder than you think. You watch it on telly and think, oh, for God's sake, it can't be that difficult. Actually, it really, really is. I mean, it really is. Because you've got a very, you have for God's sake, it can't be that difficult. Actually, it really, really is.

I mean, it really is. Yeah, because you've got a very, you have a finite time in which you can make that pass. Yeah. And I would have thought long nails would be the very last thing you'd need. But also, I thought when they're starting, in their starting positions, you know, if you've got very long nails, and so the actual tip of your fingers can't touch the ground because you've got the talon bit coming over and that just must be so uncomfortable oh my god so and then you're also

presumably risking breaking one which would be excruciatingly painful yeah no i i'm with you on that i don't get it final final part of claire's email claire's so lucky she had so many outings i know i'm sorry about that claire is currently en route to wainwright country and trying to switch off from daughter number two in brackets child number five and her friend so she's got like a minibus full of children who are currently giggling madly as they try to spot interlocking spurs and oxbow lakes knowing that geography gcse is now behind them results day looming fee well it certainly is and i want to say a massive massive prepare yourself and i hope everything goes okay because we've got a level results coming this week and then we've got gcse results coming the following week and it will be an anxious time

for lots of families around the country so definitely um thoughts and prayers um i do hope things go well actually let's just i love this because this really establishes our middle class credentials from liz listening to the thread about inheriting fish kettles that is the way to start a sentence i've been reminded about my mother's original now described described as vintage, Kenwood Chef. She was given it as a present by my dad and throughout my childhood in the 60s and 70s it was used daily. When my children were small I was delighted because the Kenwood Chef was given to me as my mother had got a newer model. However, my joy was short-lived as a couple of weeks later my mother asked for it back because the new one wasn't as good. From then on both machines sat side by side

in her kitchen and I was comforted by the fact that one day the original would be mine. Well, fast forward a couple of decades and my mother was due to have a hip replacement. In planning for this, my father decided to construct a commode for the lounge. When I visited them just before the operation, he proudly showed me what he'd made. A tablecloth was pulled off with a flourish to reveal an old office chair with sturdy arms. In absolute horror, I saw the bowl of my beloved Kenwood chef was sitting within a jigsawed hole in the wooden seat. He was so proud that he'd found a bowl that fitted. I was speechless and realised I was never going to inherit the Kenwood chef now. Well Liz, you don't finish that anecdote, so we never going to inherit the Kenwood chef now.

Well, Liz, you don't finish that anecdote, so we don't know whether the Kenwood chef bowl fulfilled its... Oh, no. OK. I imagine you probably wouldn't want it. I get it. No, but I don't think you can beat a Kenwood chef in its old form. It's very simple. I think it just came with a meringue whisk and a kind of

dough dough hook and then a big solid mixer well it's all you need isn't it because i a lot of the bits of fandango that came with my food processor i've just i've never used them yeah because i don't know i really truly don't know what they are i think i think they're way too complicated now and the idea that you'll be paying extra because you've got a radish slicer is just a bit odd, isn't it? What kind of fools do you take us for? I was once offered a plate of radishes

at a drinks party. Not in this country. Well, Miriam Margulies just eats bowls of them, doesn't she? Oh, her Australia thing's entertaining. Episode one's good. I saw episode two, I think, over the weekend. Episode two... She went to... Is it Byron Bay?

Byron Bay. Yeah. I was less bedazzled by that. I'm looking forward to next week's because that's Broken Hill and that's a place who's... I've heard that name and I'm quite intrigued by it. It's a mining town. Yeah, I thought that really does sound...

I mean, she's... I know she's had quite a lot of health issues. She seems to be in really... She seemed much better. Brightly. Yeah, she's had a heart operation recently. Right. It's obviously given her yet another lease of life.

She's wonderful. How many leases? No, she's brilliant. I think she's a great documentary maker, actually. I just enjoy her company. And I know a lot of people find her too much. But, I mean, frankly, we need more women making those sorts of documentaries so good for her yeah people tell her things uh which is always quite a a rare talent actually because when you're making a

documentary there's about six people around you so if she can manage to make people forget there's a producer an ap a sound man, a cameraman, and actually get them to talk just to her. That really is something worth treasuring. I just wanted to say hello to Kate in deepest, darkest Holybourne in Hampshire. I may have said that wrong, Kate, just because I quite like it now when Hampshire comes up in the sign-offs.

Doing my little bit for the home counties there because they're often much ignored. Well, don't get me started on the expression home counties. This is a very useful one about Kat Dandruff. Thank you. And this listener says, I love your chats and the variety of topics you cover, from the serious stories to the downright ridiculous.

I'm writing in because Jane talked about her cat having dandruff. My cat Ernie was having similar issues and he was very itchy until our vet prescribed an omega-3 supplement, which works wonders. Yes, I know our cat is terribly middle class. That's the first thing my kids told me on my return from the vets. You'll have to work out the best way to administer it, though, as my cat wouldn't eat his food if I put the meds in. But he doesn't mind swallowing a pill every other day. Right. Anyway, no more dandruff, and he isn't scratching all day. And he's also calmer.

So I just wonder whether... Is that Dora's problem? I have wondered. I also love that our correspondent has included the prescription, the box with Ernie's meds. Yeah, that's helpful, isn't it? And Ernie's name is on the box. So what do you think would happen if we took that?

Would we get a glossy coat and a healthy shine? Quite tempting. It is, isn't it? It does say quite specifically on the box for dogs and cats. But seriously, how much damage could we do? Let's not do that. Somebody told me the other day that in summer, it is quite helpful in order to try and get more water into your pets

to try and introduce fruit and vegetables into their bowls of food. Now, this is not working in our household at all. What have you started with? Well, no, so once we did take Nance to one of those country pubs up in Essex, a fantastic pub called The Owl, where they do a dog's dinner as well as a Sunday dinner. And you just got a fantastic bowl of kind of all of the meat offcuts from the Sunday roast. And it had broccoli in it. And Nance very carefully picked out every single piece of broccoli from the bowl before she ate all of the meat off cuts from the sundae roast and it had broccoli in it nancy very carefully picked out

every single piece of broccoli from the bowl before she ate all of the meat she's no market broccoli on the side so how do you get i mean are people mushing it up into into their dog food i don't know i don't know a dog who will you know think oh look there's a carrot over there i'll go and have a crunch on that so what do you you mean, dog owners? What do you mean by that? The same doesn't apply to cats, does it? You don't need to give them fruit, do you? Well, I don't know. I don't know. There are lots of things up on the Insta of

cats licking ice cubes and stuff like that. Oh, she likes an ice cube, does she? Yeah, very fond of an ice cube. We did have a tin of tuna yesterday, me and her. Did you share it? Pretty much. I probably had three quarters, if I'm honest. Oh, dear. Voice over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen.

Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone Mina Smallman is remarkable she spends much of her time campaigning to better understand how to end violence against women and girls and she she does this because her daughters, Bieber and Nicole, were murdered by a male stranger as they celebrated Bieber's birthday

at a picnic in the June of 2020. You may well remember too that insult was added to injury when it emerged that two police officers had posed for pictures with their bodies and sent these onto WhatsApp groups they were part of and shown them to colleagues. Mina has spoken about how she came to forgive the man who killed her daughters. He had been radicalised by violent messaging online, but couldn't forgive the officers, Dennis Jaffa and Jamie Lewis. They were both jailed for two years and nine months in 2021.

Mina has a book out now all about what happened, but also about her life. And that is quite a remarkable story too, of a challenging childhood, finding faith and falling in love in the staff room. I started though by asking Mina to tell us more about Biba and Nicole so that we can hold on to the joy of their lives as we talk about the darkness that then happened to them. Yeah, that's how I choose to remember them. Biba was my firstborn and Nicole was my lastborn. And there was, you know, some 14 years between, no, 19 nearly, I think, between them. And, you know, their relationship in the beginning

was more like auntie and niece. But then we as a family, we always did things together. And of course, the gaps get shorter. So when Nikki started university in her second year, the first year she stayed in halls and in a second year she actually lived with Bieber. And of course, they got closer and closer. Biba was a senior social worker working with families and children and was an advocate for safeguarding women and girls, really. That was her speciality. And Nicole was a photographer and a singer.

She worked in hospitality. And she set up an acoustic night at the pub she was working in, on Harrow-on-the-Hill, which was a great success. So she started booking the talent, as it were. And her and her boyfriend, Adam, they made music together. They were in a band called Darwinny. And she was the hippie. Beba was the pocket rocket.

Nikki was the hippie. Beedle was the pocket rocket. Nikki was the gentle one. I always worried about her, how she'd, you know, cope in a world that isn't very kind. But as she got older, she had the mummy edge. She got it in the DNA. So it was wonderful. It was, you know, they were wonderful. It's so important, isn't it, to remember their lives? Because of course, what happened was so brutal and so dark. And really, what I learned from your book, well, I learned many things from your book, Mina, but actually, the police had failed you right from the start, hadn't they? The immediate investigation just wasn't right when you reported them missing. No, they did absolutely nothing.

I hadn't realised until after all the tragedy came out. And, you know, once you get the news that your kids have been murdered, you know, I didn't check in with anybody else about what their experience had been until some time later but um unbeknown to me um Adam and Adam's friends had been sending out um you know on um social media Nikki's gone missing. They phoned the police. Adam had phoned all the hospitals. And they'd been doing that from the early hours of the morning because Nikki had said to Adam, I'm dancing in the field with lights.

I'm going home soon. That was probably about half past midnight, quarter to one, but she never showed up. And it wasn't until Adam got in touch with us about eight o'clock the following evening, he said, have you heard from Nikki and Bebo? I said, no, I haven't. You know, I wouldn't have expected to hear from Nikki about the picnic. She could sleep for England. And Biba was a stickler for working and keeping up.

And I thought, well, she'll call me when she's ready. She sent me a picture of, you know, the group at the picnic. And they looked like they were having a wonderful time. at the picnic and they looked like they were having a wonderful time. So I then phoned the police thinking, well, if it's mum phoning and it's two women that this isn't typical behaviour of, maybe I'd get something done. And they did nothing, absolutely nothing. In fact, the call handler phoned my granddaughter

who'd been at the picnic but left earlier. The call handler said to my granddaughter, is your nan a bit of a worrier? Now, I know what my granddaughter would have said about that. I am not a worrier. I'm not one of these people who, I know what my granddaughter would have said about that. I am not a worrier. I'm not one of these people who, you know, gripe about the least thing. And the call handler then took it upon herself to phone the detective who was in charge of the missing persons that hadn't actually even started

to say, look, shall we call this off? You know, it's two women. They'll turn up. What do you reckon? Should we let it go? And they did. They actually stood down two police officers that were en route to go and check where Nikki was living.

They stood them down. Right. where Nikki was living, they stood them down. Right. And it was the first in a catalogue of errors, to use a terrible cliché, of things that happened to your family at the hands of the police that shouldn't have happened. And of course, the thing that really takes everybody's breath away and that has been so difficult for you is these photographs that Despicable One and Despicable Two took and that's obviously not my terminology that is how you wish

to refer to those two police officers. Now Mina they posted them on a group they showed them to other colleagues you make the very good point that that means all of this had probably happened before but can you tell us a bit more about who was in the whatsapp group i was amazed to read that there were members of the public in that whatsapp group what was the group before um i'm sharing unpleasantness and being given an insight into the workings of the police and, you know, raising jokes about it, being racist, you know, nothing to do primarily. It was a police WhatsApp group. And one of the most shocking things about this is Jaffa, who was a mentor and had a female mentee who was on, you know, on the area where because Despicable One and Two, they were guarding the crime scene. So they would take a register of everyone who went in, everyone who went out, so that that DNA could

be eliminated from anything that they found. He actually sent that WhatsApp to her as well. that WhatsApp to her as well. And so what does that say? If the person who is mentoring you is showing you things like that, then what hope do we have? And the other person, despicable too, he had to go back to court once he was imprisoned because he'd done it previously, he'd been on the transport police and a person, a civilian, someone had committed suicide on the train line and the person had said, can you take pictures of it and show me? And he did. So this was

and is the practice that had been going on for a long time, a long time. And can you explain to us, Mina, what that meant to your family and to the people who loved your daughters that that had happened that desecration of them had happened I think that that was the final body blow I mean of course there's nothing worse than having your daughters murdered. But it just took any semblance of respect and hope or, you know, it was the double absence of hope, if you see what I mean. The kind of, the thing that I've been very careful to to say is that as a family we received the best of the metropolitan police and the worst and and so I always have to keep on making sure that people understand that.

Yeah, it's such a good point to make, Mina. And thank you for making it because we always just talk about the police, don't we? And actually, you know, there are many, many individuals within all of the police forces across the country. I'd just like to kind of make a leap to very current affairs, if I may, and then we will return to everything that you've written about in the book. Because Yvette Cooper, the Home Secretary, has been talking about the policing of the riots today. And she said, we must take action to restore respect for the police and respect for the law, from antisocial behaviour through to serious violence.

Too often people feel as though crime has no consequences as charge rates have been allowed to fall and court delays have grown and that has to change. So I wonder how you would advise the Home Secretary to go about restoring that respect? go about restoring that respect? I would say that there is a huge learning curve to happen between those who are called to lead us in the country. It starts with the Prime Minister, what they say. It starts with, you know, Sir Mark Rowley, what he says, because we have been listening to hate rhetoric and lied to by people who should be an example to us.

And it has helped others in leadership roles to let standards slip. And, you know, my campaigning, I'm not the only one. It has been through the tenacity of victims to lead on the way to behave as a human being. particular moment in time it has taken the parents of those grieving children to have to tell others how to behave i think that is such an interesting point mina and it's really astonishing actually uh now you put it into words that it is the people at their most vulnerable having been the most hurt who have to show the best and that that just is wrong isn't it absolutely and um you know i've i've watched the deterioration of um people in government, you know, the upsetting thing was, you know, Biba had a picnic for, I think it was either eight or ten people, whatever the number was allowed,

and she did it outside because it was illegal to have parties inside. to have parties inside. We've been asked by the Prime Minister to not hold parties inside our homes. And while Bieber was doing what she was told, and the truth is, doing what she was told. And the truth is, if she'd have had that party inside her flat, they would still be alive. And then to find that we had Partygate going on in number 10 and that Boris was saying over and over again, there were no parties, there were no parties.

And I've said, and I'll say it again, you know, when they called him a liar. No, he wasn't lying, actually, because he never believed that the rules belonged to him. And it is that kind of entitlement of, we tell you what to do, and we do what we want to do. And it's, you know, people are so angry about so many things, but they're being pulled along by the years. You know, people know how exactly to incite fear and anger, fight fear and anger and they have turned us against one another but I was also encouraged because I knew that this was not Britain these these awful attacks um and looting and I knew this wasn't Britain. And I tell you, my heart, when I saw the good people coming out, I was so restored. You know, I knew because I know in my heart that's who we are. Just as I know that the police as a whole are good. The police as a whole are good.

But, you know, keeping an institution online, on script, doing what you are supposed to be doing, doesn't just happen by accident. You have to continually go into that institution and reinforce positive behavior and really root out anything that's rotten. And that's, we are where we are because that hasn't happened for a very long time and we also have to understand that the lack of financing given to the police has made it that actually it's it's it's not that great a job you're either there because you really believe in it or you want to use that uniform to manipulate the people that you are supposed to be taking care of. Yeah. Can I quote something back to you, Mina, from quite early on in your book? You say, I believe that my daughters were targeted that night because they were women.

I believe that the police didn't bother to mount a search for Nicole and Bieber when Adam reported them missing because they were black. I believe that the news of Lewis and Jeffers misconduct made bigger headlines than Nicole and Bieber's murders because they were black women. So I needed justice first for our daughters and then for all women and girls everywhere, especially women and girls of colour. It was the only thing that could save me from deepest despair. I think people have been amazed at your own strength, Mina, since these terrible things happened. And you always, as we've heard, have wise things to say. But I wonder where your despair lies at the moment and also your sense of justice.

Do you believe that you have had justice for your girls now? Well, yes, the person who murdered them is in prison. There was a custodial sentence for, you know, Despicable One and Two. for Despicable 1 and 2. I'm doing what I believe I need to do to make it safer for all women and girls. So the justice continues for my girls. I feel that they won't have died in vain if I can be part of the thing that changes

the current way that men and boys are behaving towards women and girls. And with that, my thing I'm working on now is people understanding that our young men and boys are being radicalized via the Internet. You know, what they have, they are able to see, read, hear, is almost like brainwashing. You know, toxic masculinity is a real thing. prisons, institutions, trying to decode and undo that radicalisation by talking about what is a man, what is the real man, and kind of defuncting all that nonsense about, you know, big, strong, you know, you've got to dominate your wife, your woman. I mean, one of the most shocking things was the WhatsApp group that was discovered in Charing Cross,

which actually was with the IOPC before Despicable One and Two. So Cressida knew that this wasn't something unheard of. And one of the texts was saying to another male, so these are two police officers, have you slept her yet? This is his girlfriend, wife. No. Well, do it. They love it.

It's in their DNAna can you believe that and so we can see how someone like karrick who was a serial wife girlfriend beat her and also the murderer of Sarah Everards. He, you know, he was doing the gateway stuff. The police knew about this. And I always say, I'm not just interested in him. I want to know who it was who let him off the hook, who said, look, mate, people, you've been caught on camera don't do it again

he didn't only just do it once he did it several times and then he led up to sarah everard's you know abduction mina they're all such good points. And I wish we had more time to talk about your life, actually, which you detail so brilliantly in the book about your own upbringing, your mum, your dad, your sister, and your faith as well. So I would hugely recommend your book to anybody, because there is so much to find out in there and obviously all of your wisdom and your experience too it's been really uh it's been lovely to talk to you today Mina her book is out at the moment and it is called a better tomorrow so honestly Jane I think the woman's just remarkable there's so much in the book about her own life and you

know we just as I said in the interview there we just didn't have time to get to it because there are so many important things that Mina has to say about where we are in our world but actually she had a really difficult start in life her mum was at times incredibly passionate and loving and caring and then sometimes really violent and abusive. Mina was fostered for a while to a lovely family that she credits with kind of teaching her the real basics of maternal love. And, you know, she had a testing time at school. There was a lot of racism that her and her sister

had to endure as a mixed- family as well and there were just tough times all the way through so to then have this brutal tragedy in her life too I honestly don't know how she remains standing but but the the title of the book is absolutely spot on it is about a better tomorrow and about getting through stuff like that well she has my my total respect and as you say well it is actually impossible for most of us all of us uh to imagine the pain that she has gone through and and then to have to have that happen and then for further trauma to be caused by the people we rely upon to, well, to sort out these things. The police behaviour, I know we've talked about the police

in the last couple of weeks on the podcast because of the riots in Britain and some of the exemplary behaviour shown by the police and some of their bravery as well in the most difficult circumstances. What those two officers did was incomprehensibly terrible and insulting. But as Mina says, the thing that we have to understand and remember is that they didn't think it was horrible and terrible. Neither did the WhatsApp group that they sent the pictures to. And so what that tells us is that it is a far, far more common practice than, you know, we would imagine because it is so horrendous so Mina keep in touch with us it would

be lovely to speak to you again and also I know that our listeners will have thoughts about that current work that she's doing actually trying to inform men and boys you know about where the basic basic kind of guidelines of life should be and And she's spot on with that too. So we'd happily take all of your thoughts about that. And obviously, Claire, if you want to send another email with several parts and have it read out by both of us with different intonation and emphasis, then it's jane and fee

thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app.

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