Off Air... with Jane and Fi - She doesn't have a drawer of joy (with Jared Harris)

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Happy flipping on this fine Shrove Tuesday! Today, Jane shares a memory of being left fully exposed on the loo at a National Trust property, while Fi recalls delivering a lesson on life at the Britannia swimming baths. Fi also speaks with actor Jared Harris about his role in the Royal Shakespeare Company's new production of Hamlet. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Hannah QuinnPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

She's got a wonderful uncluttered... unclittered? What am I saying? Uncluttered! Borrowed kitchen. I think we'll have to end it now for various reasons. For just £1 a month for six months you can enjoy unlimited digital access to the Times and Sunday Times when you subscribe with Google. Stay well informed on news, politics, business, culture and sport wherever you are, with the latest stories and live updates on the Times app and website. Don't miss out. Visit thetimes.com forward slash subscribe with Google to claim your offer today. 18 plus, new customers only. Offer ends midnight April the 14th.

T's and C's apply. Welcome to Tuesday. Oh, door slamming. That was very aggressive wasn't it? That door slamming was our executive producer. Just a little insight into the sometimes very high octane world of show business. I think that was a flounce. To be fair to her it wasn't but it sounded like one which is good. I've never successfully flounced. I'm the kind of person who'd slam a door but it wouldn't work you know you just and then you fall over. Or you wouldn't be able to grip the handle and you wouldn't be able to get out anyway or you know you storm out of a restaurant but actually you've opened the door to the cupboard. 1976 com here I come.

So look it is pancake day today we wish you very happy flippins. Do you observe the pancake day in your household? Are you pancake observant Jane? I'm not pancake observant or adjacent. In fact, the only time I ever eat pancakes is when, and you know how often I'm tripping over to New York, is when I find myself in the biggest of all apples and then I might have a short stack of pancakes. When was the last time that you went to the America? It was at least 20 years ago. Oh no, hang on. I have been, when did I go? Probably 15 years ago. Okay. Yeah. That's good. It's not calling me back at the moment. And I know

we have listeners in America. You're in a different class. You're a totally different category. Of course, I love and respect you, but that's different. And I feel for Americans at the moment because everybody is being kind of tarred with the same brush actually and it's exactly the same for us in this country. Of course you shouldn't do that. When we've had close votes on politics, 4852 is the numerical disposition of this country and lots of people felt, you know, that we weren't all one great big amorphous blob. So we totally understand that. We love hearing your stories.

Do you know, I've got a buttermilk lake at home, Jane, following on from a really lovely birthday dinner actually on Friday night, but we have over ordered on the buttermilk, so I might do pancakes for the whole Bloomin' Street, because actually buttermilk works in a pancake... Soda bread. And spread, yep. But otherwise, what could I do with it all?

I'm with you, I'm afraid. I think your best bet is to make a chunk of soda bread and in the freezer. Maybe. Pop it in the freezer. I could, I could do some batch cooking. Well, I did watch, just so I could say I'd seen it, and I wasn't relying on other people on what they thought.

I watched episode one of, is it called Love, Megan? The new Megan Markle, Duchess of Sussex, Netflix vehicle. I think it's with Love, Megan. With Love, Megan, I do apologize. With Love, comma, Megan. And the problem with Megan is that she does make it very easy for her critics, I have to say, and she's done it again, Fionn. Okay, talk us through just a tiny chunk.

No, I mean, it's inoffensive, and I'm going to say pretty companionable entertainment. If you're in the mood for a burst of California sunshine and some lifestyle tips that you can probably have a titter at but you're almost certainly never going to use. You're not going to make your own homemade bath salts. Well I'm not Fiona, no, because as you know I have an immensely crowded schedule and I just don't have the time. But she did make me think, so I've got some very old friends coming to stay this weekend and the first episode is dedicated to a trip to see Megan, although it's not, she

makes clear very early on, she's not in her own kitchen, which is a bit... I think that's just a bit bizarre as well. Well, because we want to see it, don't we? Well, that is the reason for watching and Martha Stewart, when she did the same thing, she started out 30 years ago, didn't she? The brilliant thing that she hit upon was to be in her own house that then turned into her own houses and she slightly gave us permission. She ended up in jail.

But that was inside a deal because she made bad bath salts. Yeah, she got done for insider trading, didn't she? But you know, so you could watch and really actually believe her because she was in her own home. So I find that Meghan Markle being in a standing kitchen just odd from the start. Have you played the part of Meghan Markle's kitchen? Let us know if you are that kitchen. It's a beautiful kitchen I've got to say. It's all white units and a very big island.

So will you go back and watch more? No. I shouldn't say no. But I can completely... It was very unchallenging and far from unpleasant. Somebody once said about a meal I made in a kitchen, completely unlike Megan's. And she had a friend came over, it was a makeup artist, Daniel. And what I think is very different about... If you have an old friend in the UK, and there's a big generalisation coming up here, your old friends will take the piss out of you. They won't turn up at your house or your stand-in kitchen

and tell you how wonderful you are. I don't know whether that works in different ways in different cultures, but in the UK, your mate turns up and they just tell you you're still the same old her, but you always were. I think what usually happens is your mates turn up and they just talk about themselves. What's perched on your kitchen stool and that's why they've popped round. Don't give them the opportunity. But Daniel calls in, ho ho, and he has been invited because Megan makes him some bath salts to put by the bed and also

some overnight snacks. Now I don't know about by the bed and also some overnight snacks. Now I don't know about you, I don't provide overnight snacks. Well I don't approve of overnight snacks. I just don't think you need... It's like TV during the day, Jane. Well, completely. Well, we don't, we're not TV during the day viewers, are we? No.

Not until about 10 to 7 for the denouement of a place in the sun on Channel 4. But you should never snack at night. Well you certainly don't need... what was it? She actually... you actually see her doing it in episode one. She opens a bag of... I think it's butter... butter corn... no, what would it be? Something popcorn. Hang on, I wrote it down. Honestly the amount of research that goes into this. Yes she opens a bag of peanut butter pretzels they're actually packeted peanut butter pretzels and then she pops them into a different kind of bag then puts them by the bed. Right I mean I you know I'd like to think that guests in my home were satisfied enough by the food and drink provided that they wouldn't need a packeted pretzel snack at four in the morning.

Let me put this to you, sister. Maybe there have been times when guests at Harry and Meghan's have gone to bed a little bit hungry. Maybe the paleo keto supper has not been enough and they need to schnaffle huge great big lumps of shortbread. Seed them through the night. Anyway, Daniel seems a lovely chap actually in all fairness and he certainly was fond of Megan as he made extremely clear she'd been wonderful to him and he says on several occasions just you know just how lovely she is which again I'm waiting so the friends who are popping in at the weekend just prepare yourselves I am expecting to be told pretty much continuously throughout your visit how wonderful I am. Okay well we've got we've got a request actually on exactly that kind of a tip

so just bear with bear with by the way Victoria asks are my glasses amazing as Michael's and there's a picture of Michael Cain with a pair of glasses oh I've got an unknown call should I take it? It's just kind of entertainment keep the keep the tape running hello hello Hello? Hello? Hello. ... from the TFL, Transport for London. ... in regards to the web form that you've built. Yes, hello.

... and the Miss Fiona Glover. It is. It's TFL. Hello. ... so you've sent us a web form sometime last month... Yes. ... about your user card. Yes. ... is this a good time to talk? Do you know what? It's not actually. I should probably call you back.

But I would very much like to talk to you and is there a problem with the refund? Okay do I have a separate number to call or just the because to be honest it takes hours to get through on your customer service number? Yeah, it's the same one. Oh, hard luck. Okay, would someone be able to call me back? Erm, I can, what time do you want to be called back? Oh, just in about 20 minutes would be lovely.

Yeah, that should be fine. That's so kind, thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. There's a little bit of real life there. What do you ask for a refund for? Oh my goodness Jane, so this is the zip card because... Oh this is a long-running saga isn't it? So TfL's website was hacked and if you have teenagers who've been using photo cards, they haven't been able to use their photo cards since September.

And it became hugely problematic and then you've got to submit a refund and there's obviously a bit of a problem with the refund. So, but that's how they're going to call back. I know, we all heard it. You've been in the queue for four and a half hours. You were absolutely charming. And that's how to get results by the way. Always be nice. I always think actually genuinely I've had fantastic assistance from TFL over the years.

Yeah and the people who work in their call centre must be on the receiving end of so many really upset and fed up people at the moment. Yeah but there's still no reason to be abusive to people on the phone, however upset you might be. Right so crack on love. Well that was absolutely riveting and briefly... Somebody emailed in to say could we hear what Jane does like? Yes, I've got it here.

Is it Anna? It's Anna. Could you please... Yeah, and I've written a single word which is bagels. So there we are. I did have a think about it and truly if I was going to endorse just one thing, that would be it. Okay, so I think you just need to expand the categories a little bit there.

I think you like bagels, European city break holidays, and Clive Myrie, and that's it. That is it, kids. I like his scarves. Oh, not even Clive! It's a scarves. Oh dear, right. It's a narrow gauge, yes, but am I, speaking quite even tempered as I chunter through life? Yes, I would say so on the whole. Occasionally a little outbursts, but nothing, nothing an

ice glass of shampers can't deal with. Shall we bring in Julia? Yeah, let's. Introducing the wonderful Tuppence Middleton, hot on the heels of your discussion about what families call things, sitting room, lounge, etc. threw me right back to my own childhood as my parents used to call a poo a Tuppence. Oh, this is brilliant, yeah. I guess it follows that if a wee was spending a penny and you needed to stay in the cubicle long enough for a poo, they up the charge to two pence Tuupence. Absolutely, says Julia, no disrespect to Tupence Middleton,

who I thought was absolutely lovely and incredibly interesting. And she was both of those things. She was, yeah. Continuing the theme, I remember when I was six going round to my friend Sarah's house. Yes, this was an invited drop-in, not a pop-in. I rang the bell and her brother Philip answered the door. Would Sarah like to come and play? I asked. Sorry, said Philip, she can't, she's doing a big job.

Oh, I said brightly, well, can I come and help her then? A look of shock took over his face, followed by a loud NO as he firmly shut the door. Little me trotted home, really quite offended that my helpful offer had been so harshly turned down. A few years later, I learned that big job was their family term for poo. How we laughed. That's from Julia. What surprises me about that is that the person who opened the door decided to tell the small child on the other side of the doorstep that she was doing a poo. I know, but that's a sibling. It was a brother and you know, we that's a sibling. It was a brother.

And, you know, we all know what goes on between, there's absolutely no respect at all. The same goes for small children. When I used to take my then toddler children out and about, visits for National Trust gardens, and, you know, basically in the years where you just go anywhere to occupy them for a couple of hours.

As long as there's a cafe. As long as there's a cafe and toilets. And they were both notorious. They'd come in the cubicle, the loo cubicle with me, and as soon as their efforts were finished, they'd just breeze out when they got to the age where they could reach the latch on the thing. And often I'd be left fully exposed

on the loo with other lavatory users coming in to use the facilities. And even in National Trust Properties Fee, you don't want that. No, you don't want that at all. English Heritage, National Trust, all those places I used to go. But also the toddler years are funny, aren't they?

Because you very much encourage your tiny ones to tell you when they need a wee or when they need a poo. And of course, when you're out and about on the number 49 bus you know the same rules apply to them so they'll just sit on the you know on the seat just say it's coming it's coming Oh dearie me yeah I once had to explain the facts of life to one of my children in a kind of open cubicle at the Britannia Leisure Centre. Where is that? It's in East London, it's in Dalston.

They used to have a wave machine. Oh my goodness, the fun we used to have there on a Saturday afternoon. Anyway. I love the fact it's called the Britannia. The Britannia Leisure Centre. Excellent. But there is that thing in parenting. Gosh, this is almost like we're a parenting hub.

We're not. In parenting, that when your kids ask you really important questions, you just really need to tell them and you get one chance to explain the facts of life to kids and the advice now is not to do stalks, deliver babies and all of that kind of bunkum. So I was adhering to the wisdom of the hive. One of my children asked me where babies came from because we'd seen a very, very pregnant woman in the pool and I did have to explain the facts of life and they're very open cubicles in the family section of the Britannia Leisure Centre and when I came out after explaining the facts of life, there were literally, there was a whole changing room full of parents just smiling at me.

And I think then all their children had benefited from it. Well, darling, you should be in charge of the parenting hub. As far as I'm concerned, you're my little hub. I so don't want to be in charge of the parenting hub at all. As we've often said on this podcast, you know, the true evaluation of parenting is never done by the parent, it's done by the kids. Unfortunately. And they're not often in all of the books and stuff like that. And Leonie, thank you very much indeed for filling us in on Sunday Lunch in the America.

In response to the question of Sunday lunch in the US, the closest tradition is probably the traditional pasta meal served by Italian American families on Sundays. Additionally, many families enjoy brunch, especially on special days such as Mother's Day. The closest equivalent to Yorkshire pudding is a popover. Popover. It used to be like a thing you'd wear, like a gym slip for days that weren't school. Yeah, like a tank top. No, a popover was a... you could wear a jumper underneath it and then you popped over the

kind of dress, but it wasn't a dress. Oh, OK, like a kind of pinafore. Yes, things like pinafore, that was the word, yeah. OK, interesting. I can't picture a popover on a plate. Usually these are served instead of a bread roll. Expat since childhood now living in snowy central Massachusetts. I dread looking at the news and I'm already counting down the days to November 2028. Oh God, I'm on time Leonie. So thank you for that. So yeah, the brunch thing. You're not a big fan of the brunch, are you? Well neither of us are. No, I don't want to. we don't know what it is.

We don't know where to eat beforehand. And it puts the... Oh, thank you. There's a pop-over fee, it looks like. Oh, it just looks like a very nice great big kind of ciabatta thing. Yeah, it looks like a ciabatta. Interesting. Ciabatta. That's an Italian word. We have Italy here in Europe. We're all becoming quite fond of Europe here in the UK at the moment. We're sort of edging closer towards it.

Suddenly remembered that we want to be held in the warm and loving embrace. Eh-hoh, eh-hoh. That's my French interpretation. Now, this is a sad email, but I thought I'd bring it to the podcast party. It's more reflective actually, I guess. We won't name the listener, but she says, I feel that you and your wonderful listeners might be interested in my situation. Long story short, four times married,

no children or stepchildren. I've moved around the country for work and following various spouses. So I don't feel I've got any real roots or extended family. My own family cut me off because of a will. And by the way, if you think that doesn't happen, it absolutely does, doesn't it? Yeah. Oh my God. I mean, money causes so many problems. Anyway, our correspondent goes on,

I finally retired at 74 and honestly I feel quite bereft. Moved to the place I'm living in two years ago. I've only been married for five years, so no real friends or social group. I have tried various groups, but the only group I like is a swimming group three times a week. My husband had a heart attack recently and he's got no interest in sex. I keep myself busy with crafts and jigsaws and doing up the house and gardening. So is this it until the end? she asks. What was all the effort, worry and hard work for? Gosh that's sad on lots of levels

isn't it? What would your advice be? Well first of all no children or stepchildren. I guess it's a truth is it but other people can certainly take me up on this, that if you have a stake in the next generation that can often, though not always, be a comfort as you age. I mean sometimes that can be a source of immense worry and strain but at other times it can be, it can keep you in tune with what's going on, it gives you a stake in the future, you feel you've got something to do and people whose lives you might be able to enhance or or just assist in some way. So I think to be at 74 just retired obviously our correspondent kept working as long as she could because she probably enjoyed it or felt that gave her purpose. Her husband's not been well

it's not really it's not his fault that he's got no interest in sex and you know he's had a heart attack. It's tough isn't it? Only moved to the place she's living in two years ago. So it's hard to put down roots I guess when you're older is it in your seventies or we don't know we're not quite there yet. Gosh I mean I think it depends completely on what your community's like. I mean if you've got like-minded souls, if you've moved somewhere that has quite a large retired community, you stand more chance don't you, on a day-to-day basis of finding the things to fit in with. But do you know what, you've had such an interesting

life. It does sound like it, doesn't it? Just that opening salvo, four times married with no children or stepchildren, having moved around the country for work and following various spouses, you say just in three simple words, long story short, well maybe that's a story that people would like to hear. Why don't you write a little book? Also, she's swimming three times a week. I know, so you're a good woman. Yeah.

That's for sure. Or why don't you tell the world a little bit more about all of those things because it sounds like you've got quite a lot that would be decent to pass on. And I think it must be very difficult if you're in your 70s to appreciate just how fantastic the connectivity of the internet can be, because all of our headlines say that it's absolutely trashed our lives and in many ways it has. But just in terms of finding a like-minded community and putting stuff out there and hearing back from people, which can be you know the measure of a good day or a bad day, I think it may be that's something worth exploring.

I mean I'd like to know more. I would too and where I feel real sympathy is when she says what was all the effort, worry and hard work for? It's the worry that stands out for me. I would give anything to get back the hours I have spent thinking and overthinking and panicking and catastrophizing about things that have simply not come to pass. And you know, you can't, you do resent those many hours when you actually put it into perspective and think about it later, don't you? But also it's that horrible truth that the kind of dreamy nature of having removed all of those things from your world, if they're to do with work or they're to do with a stage in your kid's life or whatever it is, that idea that retirement brings this placid calm.

I don't see how it can. Not everybody enjoys the placid calm. There's often a huge delight in the kind of ups and downs and the frenetic nature of a day with a lot in it. Not everybody likes just, you know, not doing much. No, I mean, I don't think I would. And you're still you, just because you don't have the pressures and strains of work. And let's face it, lots of people have jobs they can't stand. You are still you in retirement.

You have an act, your personality remains exactly the same. Yeah. So giving up work isn't going to be a panacea that cures your ills, is it? Well, it isn't. And especially if you're no big fan of, you know, making your own bath salts and watching daytime TV. So, to bring it all together, I would like to hear a bit more about your life though. So maybe you could start with that and it might sow a seed. Yeah. We'd like to hear more from you. Yeah, but don't be, I mean, you know, it's easy to say this, but don't be hard on yourself and I hope your husband feels better

soon. I mean, that'd be something, wouldn't it? Yeah, and maybe his mojo returns. So this is from, so this is going to go into the top 20 of fantastic names. Jill Mail. Mail as in? M-A-L-E. Not female. Not female. So do you think that that did come many, many, many centuries ago from literally, it was just a bloke. So your family could have been called bloke, it could have been called man, chap. It was just mail. It was just mail over there.

I heard you mention HRT recently and I agree it's brilliant. I took it from somewhere in my 50s to somewhere in my 60s, just over 10 years and then was told I couldn't have it any longer. On Christmas Eve 2020, I found a lump in my left breast, which was then successfully removed. At the time I was caring for my husband who had dementia and of course COVID was in full flow.

In 2023 my husband died in 2022. We're both very sorry about that. I began to suffer from a series of urinary tract infections. I'm sure you can imagine the cycle of antibiotics. A friend told me about a piece on woman's hour relating to the relationship between HRT and UTIs. It sounded really positive and I also knew somebody who was taking it. I asked my doctor if I could have the treatment. He said it wasn't possible because of my previous cancer and mastectomy. I pointed out that I was over 80 and that according to the statistics the risk was minimal. I really pressurised him and fortunately he agreed. I've been using them for over nine months with no UTIs. Oh that's brilliant. Wonderful little pills, keep taking them with all good wishes. Jill, well Jill we're really glad that you have sorted that out I

think it's such an interesting point. I mean if you are over 80 then actually the horrible nature of some UTIs, the recurrence of them. Vicious, aren't they? Really vicious and they can make you disorientated and all kinds of things. And they do just keep coming back. They do keep coming back and some people think they've got dementia and they're in the early stages of it and sometimes they're treated as though they've got dementia and it is just in speech marks a UTI.

And I know that HRT doesn't sort every UTI out, it's absolutely not a given, but there does seem to be a medical link between low oestrogen levels and a recurrence of UTIs. So how fantastic to persevere and for a doctor to agree to it. And I think once you're over 80, really, you know, you're right to want to be in charge of the assimilation of statistics and the choice in your medication. So thank you for that. We have in the past had quite a few emails actually about UTIs and we haven't really gone there. Well, you're right about the recurring nature. Some women have an almost permanent UTI and have to be on antibiotics for the rest of their life in some cases. Really, really strong ones, yeah. It just sounds thoroughly miserable. Can we just end with Viennese worlds?

A subject we did discuss yesterday on this. I mean, I think unlike a lot of other podcasts, you will have noticed that over the weekend we didn't supply an emergency podcast in the light of geopolitical events. I think we should, Fee. And yeah, I'll always bitterly regret the fact that we weren't around to give our own input. So many other people did though.

I couldn't move for them on my podcast feed. So I listened to the Archers Onimus instead. Right, your podcast Insomnia Service has failed me tonight, says Liz. This is because my ears pricked up at the mention of Viennese whorls. When I went with my son Johnty to Vienna in 2018, it was a present for his 18th birthday. Apart from following our main objective, a search for anything to do with Beethoven, my son's hero, we went on a trawl of the bakeries looking for Viennese whorls. He'd developed a taste for these because the bakery near his school

sold the finest Viennese whorls in Shropshire, much more substantial and less dusty than the ones you can buy in packets. This is all getting a bit complicated, but what I wanted to say is that we didn't find a single Viennese whorl in Vienna. The search tested my limited German vocabulary to its very limit, but this wasn't the only reason the staff in the bakeries looked blank. It turned out these confections are nothing to do with Vienna, but an invention of the English biscuit-loving nation. I'm guessing attributing them to Vienna made them seem even more sophisticated. Or something, she says.

That'll be it, won't it? Wow. Yeah. So we appropriated Viennese culture and turned it into a crumbly biscuit. She does go on to say, unfortunately the Shropshire bakery, which inspired the excellent version of this biscuit, closed during the pandemic, so I'm not able to send you any samples. That's a real shame, isn't it? A twist in the Beethoven story is that my son is now a composer himself. Wow. Congratulations. How fantastic. And how lovely that you took him to Vienna for his 18th. A twist in the Beethoven story is that my son is now a composer himself. Wow! Congratulations, how fantastic.

And how lovely that you took him to Vienna for his 18th. Yeah. That's gorgeous. I've never been to Vienna. I have. It's really beautiful. Is it? So the civic buildings are just extraordinary.

They're of such immense magnitude, if that's not piling on too many words, but it just takes your breath away walking around Vienna because when they do a municipal building, they really do the municipal building. You mean they're very grand? Hugely grand, yep. Not a patch on the Britannia leisure centre. It's the Habsburg Empire that funded it. The Austro-Hungarians.

I do remember going round one of their art galleries in Vienna and the Habsburgs, they married each other. Well, they had funny chins. And you can tell. In general. If you can avoid marrying a relative, I think we both agree it's a good thing. It is a good thing. Now, just to say on the Viennese worlds that I will pop up the picture of the draw of joy. I think it's the picture of the Draw of Joy. I think it's the right day to do it, Jane, because I think it might prove the perfect antidote. Not in a snidey way, but it's an antidote to With Love, Megan. Well, you haven't seen it.

I don't think she's got a Draw of Joy in the Montecito mansion. Well, she did say she ate a lot of those pretzels that she was putting, taking out of one bag and putting into another. But I don't think she does. No, I don't think she does. She doesn't put her hands right into the bottom and just pull it all out and shove it in. But what is undeniable, she is absolutely beautiful. Yes, and she has not aged in any way. I have to say she is, yeah She's absolutely beautiful. It's just a fact and she's got a wonderful uncluttered, uncluttered? What am I saying? uncluttered Borrowed kitchen, I think we'll have to end it now for various reasons

Various contractual reasons. Jane's battery has slipped out. Say that again. Jared Harris is one of those actors who bring a real touch of class to a show. If I see he's in something I think, OK, I'll give this one more than 10 minutes. Chernobyl, Mad Men, The Crown, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. It's a long list of hits. Jared lives in LA now when he's not working here in the UK, which he is right now. He's currently playing Claudius in Hamlet at the RSC in Stratford-upon-Avon. Now the plays, all two familiar themes of power and corruption and greed and hubris, are played out in a modern setting and that's where we started our chat. The concept is that it all takes place, the whole story takes place in one night.

So it has a tremendous propulsive power to it, to the narrative. And the whole story unravels over two and a half hours, which is normally the first act for Hamlet. So the whole story unfolds in two and a half hours. I would say those are the two, the biggest conceptual ideas behind it, that and the fact that it takes place on board a ship, if you like.

And is the ship meant to be the Royal Yacht? I mean, honestly, it's a metaphor. So it could, it's really, I think if you get too tied up on things being literal, you run into you run into problems. But the idea that it takes place on boards, a ship of state of some kind, you know, and that the whole society is represented by the people on the ship. You know, not unlike, for example, in the film, The Titanic, you had all strata of society on board the ship. You know, people who have not got a fixed idea about Hamlet take the journey. You know, I think people who come to it

and they've seen many Hamlets and they've got fixed ideas about it, they may have take a little bit longer to sort of strap themselves in and take the ride, if you like. But generally by the end they do, it's really fantastic the responses that we get at the end. That is a good incentive. If one of the overriding themes of the play undoubtedly is about power corrupting, why don't we seem to be able to learn that message, to heed that message, to change human behaviour? That's probably a failure of our ability to hold power to account isn't it? I mean from the very beginning when people, different experiments that societies have had

in trying to set up different political organisations there's been an understanding that you want to, you need to move the people around who are sitting in the seat of power because if they sit in it too long, they'll figure out ways to pervert it, won't they? My wife and I were in Venice. We went to the Doge's Palace and there was a really interesting thing that they had, their set up there was to be the Doge, you had to, I think you had to be either 60 or 65 years old. You could only hold the office, I think, for five years. And from the moment you became the Doge, you were never alone. So there was somebody who was always accountable for all conversations that you had. And there was one terrace where the Doge was allowed to be by themselves and that was it.

Overlooking a square, high above. But they understood very clearly that, you know, the temptations are massive when you're put in positions of power like that. And it's almost impossible to resist not acting in your own interest rather than the public's interest. You know, you work in a business where you're reading some of the greatest lines of literature on a more regular basis actually than most people are. The messages are there right the way through from Euripides through Hamlet to modern stuff that you've been in. I mean in Chernobyl, which I thought was one of your finest hours, actually, that TV series, you know, that's about the state closing in and normal people's desire to live a peaceful,

calm life being completely ignored. And we just return to it again and again and again. And I wonder whether you find it sometimes just a bit frustrating actually. I mean I'm glad I didn't go into political life because I would find it very depressing in that you constantly are brought back to square one. I mean the message of Chernobyl, if you like the theme of Chernobyl, is that eventually the lies that you tell will catch up to you and you'll have to, I mean, literally the

question is what is the cost of lies? And that is the whole theme of that piece and that there is no way of escaping having to pay that debt. And in that sense, I think one of the reasons why that show struck such a chord is we've been living with a sustained attempt since the 70s to deny climate science. And the cost of those lies is coming home to roost right now in an inevitable way. That's very alarming. And you're still dealing with headwinds with people who are saying that, you know, the science isn't settled, etc., etc. And yet at the same time, we can see that things are shifting. You live in Los Angeles now, which obviously has been hugely affected recently by the fires, and you are living under a president who wants to drill baby drill. What do you think the creative industries long term response is going to be to the political

frequency that America now has? That's a really good question. I mean, how effective is all this storytelling really? My wife makes a joke, but it's also semi serious and that she said that who knew that every time you were watching these Indiana Jones movies where the Nazis were the bad guys that one third of the audience were rooting for, you know? It's difficult because I think the stories that we tell speak to a version of ourselves that we wish was true, that we'd like to believe is true, but it isn't necessarily the case because when push comes to shove, we will defend our own personal interests before we'll defy and defend the interests of a wider community. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure what will happen about that. I mean, we'll see whether

or not, I mean, whether his term lasts four years or is longer. I think that more than likely whatever happens, you're looking at a long term shift in America's relationship with the world and its stance with the world. From what you know of the Hollywood community, does it feel like you are removed in a way from what's happening in Washington and in a way that will enable creative people to become kind of more rebellious? I'm making a lot of assumptions, I know, in making that statement. The first one is that I belong to the Hollywood community. But also, you know, that the Hollywood community per se wouldn't have voted for Trump and I know that that's not entirely

the case. But I suppose I'm just asking about the feeling that now this very established, really huge mainstream cultural industry might feel a little bit more rebellious, a little bit more kind of daring than we've seen it. Yeah, I suspect that they'll keep doing what they've always done, which is they'll respond to the types of storytelling that the audience wants to see and responds to. So I think that in that sense, generally speaking, it will be up to the audience to decide.

There will always be, there are artists within that community. There are people there who are trying to use their opportunity to make statements or to move the conversation, let's say. I think that will always be true as well, but in terms of will they become more daring? I'm not sure. Given that, we've sort of lived through this wonderful period where there has been incredibly daring storytelling and huge changes in the way that narratives are approached. I mean, that's one of the wonderful things that I feel like I've been a beneficiary of, is this, you know, they refer to it as the sort of golden age of television or streaming or something. But that opportunity

came about largely because the big studios decided that they were going to more or less gear all of their storytelling towards a very young audience. And they figured out how they're going to be able to make these giant movies full of special effects and spectacles and everything. And they sort of abandoned an adult audience who had more experience of life and had a sort of more nuanced understanding of it and that's the gap that say HBO and AMC and then after them you know Netflix etc all stepped into. Yeah well we have enjoyed many of the results of all of that. You have been nominated and you've won several awards across your glorious career, Jared. Do you like an award ceremony?

Do you always prepare a speech? Isn't it a little bit preposterous when someone stands up and says this is completely unexpected? I mean, some of the poor women have been in hair and makeup for three days. They must have known where they were going. I mean you know awards are a load of bollocks but everybody wants to win them if you've been, if you're nominated. They're largely marketing tools but you know you still want to win it if you're in it you know. They are long, long, long, tedious days. And they, yes, the whole thing of getting ready and the meeting with the stylists and choosing the clothes and all that stuff.

I mean, in a way, the clobber is the best part of it because you get dressed up in outfits that you would never normally get dressed up in. To a large extent, I think award shows have really become fashion spectacles more than they are about the actual films themselves. You can be very brave and not prepare a speech, but I think you'd always be wise to have something ready just in case. And you know, they're

nerve wracking. It is nerve wracking waiting there, wondering if you're, I mean, part of you is hoping you don't win, so you don't have to get up there and make a speech and possibly end your career. Or, you know, I know the other part of you wants to win, you know? Jared Harris, and if you want to see his new production of Hamlet, it's on at the Royal Shakespeare Theatre in Stratford upon Avon. I've had to say the T word there, and I'm very sorry about that. I know it really gr to say the T word there and I'm very sorry about that. I know it really grates on people's nerves and I do try and change it. I know you do darling.

How do you say it? I'm still in the naughty corner, I can't really speak. Theatre. Thank you. So do pop along if that's your... What kind of an encouragement to visit Stratford and see a production of Hamlet is pop-along if you fancy it. Right, okay. I'm sorry, it's the best I can do today. Well, it's Tuesday everybody.

Right, we'll be back tomorrow if we're still here. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.