Off Air... with Jane and Fi - She-Wees and Duchy Urinals (with Nancy Birtwhistle)

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

A miscommunication in today's episode results in a gassy greyhound being confused for one of the nation's bestselling authors. Meanwhile, Jane and Fi brainstorm their own future chart-topper... a manual dedicated entirely to the world of wee. Plus, Fi speaks to author and Bake Off winner, Nancy Birtwhistle, about her new book 'Clean Magic'. Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQ If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producers: Hannah Quinn and Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We were just looking at all of the delivery drivers and the Uber drivers weaving in and out of the traffic, and that's most of the traffic in central London these days. We were in one of those vehicles. And we were trying to work out what happens when AI takes those jobs, because already some of those food delivery people have got robots, so where my son's at university, they have robots that travel along the pavement delivering food. Like drones?

Yes, but little. robots like little dustbins which have all the food in they're incredibly heavy and they're constantly tracked and they've got superb alarm systems so they can't really be tampered with but he was saying you know if you if you're in the way this little voice comes along and says please could you move out of the way i am delivering or words to that effect so an awful lot of those delivery drivers will go and the driverless car is coming to a city centre near you as well so you know what jobs do all of those people then get. And if you look back through all of the

previous revolutions, industrial revolutions, agricultural revolutions, where did those people go? So that's what we were trying to do. So let's say you had 10 people working on a farm in the 17th century and when a form of automation came

along so it wasn't just the horse and the plough and my dates won't be particularly good on this. And let's say a plough did the work of 10 men, you only needed one person operating it, where did the other nine go? And the same in the industrial revolution. Where did those other people go and find work? And where are delivery drivers and Uber drivers going to find work, Jane? I was hoping you tune me up a bit to do. No, it's not, but it's worth thinking about. It is here. I don't know. I mean, it's not even

around the corner. You know, it's here. It's here. But we're all still slightly in denial, aren't we? Well, we are. But then I can believe that there were robots on the pavement delivering food in a university city. I mean, are they, what do they look like? So they're like, I suppose to us, they're like little Daleks.

You know, they're on wheels and they're trundling around and they've got voices. And off they pop to, you know, deliver the latest pizza. I mean, it's a good place, a big university, city to test out whether or not they are indestructible. Do they order takeaway students? I can't remember. God.

Yeah, I haven't seen one in London yet. But lots of people, lots of people listening would have seen them. But where does that person go and find a job? That's what we were trying to work out. Well, if anyone's got any idea. I guess, I mean, the factories, when did factories first start? God, automation. Yeah.

So I'm going to say 19th century. Maybe late. late 19th century. Yeah. So there is, but people carried up, oh God, God, no. I can't help. No. I just think that we have always evolved.

Well, that's the point, isn't it? Yeah, it's not like we're all going to sit around picking our feet for decade after decade while we think about how we're going to occupy our time. Something will come along. I mean, a lot of people will just sit on the sofa scratching their bomb and watching inappropriate content, so they're taken care of. those of us who want to work will probably find something to do.

But I'm not... Yeah, see, I think this one might be a little bit different. I genuinely can't see the work that you then go and do if that is your job at the moment. Because let's face it, you're probably not doing that job out of choice. You're doing it out of economic choice. No, because you need the money and you've got to pay the rent. I get it.

Yeah. So, you know, it's not like you can walk into a shop because the retail industry is booming or hospitality, because hospitality is booming. So that's what we were trying to work out. And we didn't come up with any solutions and then we arrived at our destination. Right.

And we ate some meat. We celebrated the birthday, well and treated the birthday, and hopped home. And yes, well, I'm glad you marked the occasion. And I'm sorry about the rather, well, no, I mean, is it negative thinking? You're just talking about the stuff

that we need to think about, but most of us are just deciding, well, that's too complicated. I don't want to go there just yet. And because of everything else that's happening, at the moment. I mean, war is becoming a rather, well, obviously it's been mechanised. I mean, have you seen a warhorse? Are you going to call it a growth industry?

Well, I'm afraid to have to wait from it. I think it might be. But do you remember War Horse, the stage play, and then they, you know, the tank comes in and, oh God. And now it's all drones and everything being controlled remotely. But, you know, young people and civilians are still dying. So anyway, let's, should we lighten the load? Well, let's, but these are things that we, you know, we should ponder on. And in a world that wasn't so dominated by military aggression and war and devastation and sadness,

I genuinely think we'd be doing a better job at solving those problems because we're just not talking about them because we're so distracted by... Yeah. Trump! Oh! Idiot. Well, he's called Kirstama basically an idiot today. and we just got some news for you.

Some of us in this country think that you're a complete twirp as well. And if we got you on the blower late at night, Jane and I were slightly fantasising about the possibility of having a conversation, just calling up Donald Trump saying, do you fancy a chat with two middle-aged women? Can we let you know our thoughts about everything that's going on, please, Donald? Wouldn't that be a beautiful thing? It really would be.

Look, I suppose it's not impossible that they really do have a plan in mind for Iran. Let's see, shall we? Yeah, it's all just getting more miserable by the minute. Earlier on, there was a confusing incident when I thought you were talking about our guest today, Nancy Birkwistle, but you were in fact talking about your dog, Nancy. And we went through the running order of the show, which we always do at a top-level meeting.

Oh, yes. We actually have meetings. People will be amazing to hear that. And we were talking about it. It's a very heavy news slate at the moment. So you then said, our 3.30 guests, sometimes does provide light and breadth. Well, certainly at contrast. Yes.

And today, she certainly does because she's Nancy Birkwistle. And she's going to talk about clean magic, her latest book, Essential New Tricks for a Sparkling Green Home. But I didn't realise that's who you meant. So when you said, do you think Nancy has got any thoughts about geopolitics? How is she reacting at the moment? Well, you said.

She'll just blow a fart in the, direction of one you know who and then you went on to say that Nancy enjoys this time of year and she particularly likes to smell every single daffodil and I thought god is that in the book because we take turns and you've taken care of this book I haven't read it but our confusion went on for quite a long time because I was describing how bad Nancy's first I should say that Nancy Berkwistle I think she's number one in the manuals bestsellers at the moment. And boy, Fee, has she shifted some copies? Well, she certainly has.

I mean, what I didn't appreciate, and it's, every day's a learning day, obviously, is that manuals outsell fiction and nonfiction by about three times. Yeah? So what can we write a manual about? Well, that's what I'm thinking. Well, come on. We need to get shifting. We do. We can't a guide-to-life thing because we've already done one of those. Guide to the afterlife.

Because we might all be heading there the way things are going. Okay, let's seriously have a thing. about that. I'm only half joking. So Nancy Burtwistle is our guest today and I should say that later on today and you'll be able to hear it on Thursday, we've got another good guest, Nas Shah, the MP. If you've read the interview she did with the Times Mag, still on the Times.com, you will know that she has led a... I mean we use the word, we banned

de adjectives around like extraordinary but I don't think there can be another MP in Parliament who's worked in a nappy factory, a crisp factory had a marriage in Pakistan at 15 and been arrested for murder. I mean, there just can't be and she's overcome. Not even the Dean Doris had accomplished all of those things. She really hasn't. No one can have a life story and a backstory quite like Nashir, who is a Labour MP for Bradford West, is her constituency. And, I mean, talk about a difficult childhood. I mean, we often interview people who've had, you know, significant events. in their adolescence, but blimey.

She had so much going on. So we'll come to that tomorrow. Yeah, well, we won't on Thursday. On Thursday, you'll be doing it tomorrow, or are you doing it today? I'm doing it today. Okay, right, I got completely lost on that one. Sorry. It's a bit like the confusion about whether I was talking, if he was discussing a greyhound

or one of Britain's best-selling authors. I'm so sorry. But also, I'm so dog-obsessed. There's only one Nancy in my world. But obviously, I'm not going to say that to Nancy Berkwetwessel, because I'm going to enjoy meeting her very much. I mean, she's just nailed it, doesn't she? She turned something that she was genuinely interested in.

And I think she really sprung to prominence, didn't she? The Great British Bake-off. But I wonder how far she would have got even without that sunshine upon her. Because, of course, what she's doing is bloody brilliant. We don't want houses full of chemicals, do we? And all that kind of stuff. And we're just sold this belief that we can't possibly be healthy without them now. But that's not entirely true.

you know, nature can help us in some pretty stunning antibacterial ways. I wouldn't want Nancy Burtwistle need to make it clear who I'm talking about to see my under the sink cupboard. Well, my Nancy doesn't want to see that either. She probably doesn't actually. Because I've got every, I mean, I've fallen,

hawkline and sinker for the notion that every surface requires a different potions. Yeah, it's just ridiculous. It really is. I've got stuff to put down toilets, put in the shower, the stuff to get rid of lime scale, I mean it's just ludicrous

And the thing that we've really fallen for Is the daily stuff You know stuff that says you have to use it every day You really don't You can just get a... It's not put off any of our sponsors, past or present And wipe it down You don't need to be spraying all of that every day

Take the same approach with your house You take with your body Yeah I always thought that we fell for the You need two lots of shampoo And two lots of conditioner as well You don't Well I mean do you think there's genuinely shampoo just for people with blonde hair?

Yes. I do. I'm not ready to give that one up yet. Timotei. This one comes in from Rachel and it's about half-term benefits and it really made me think I just wanted to say to Fee

not to underestimate the power of the half-term holidays because I've had my last ever half-term. My husband and I, I'm sorry, I've got a bit of a cold at the moment and I am going to do that horrible swallowing thing. You've been very brave. No, it's just a cold. Jane's no point. But you were very, you really dismissed Barocca earlier. We were having a conversation

with Hugo Rifkin. I do dismiss Barocca. I love a barocca. I love the way it courses through your system and exits in a sort of similar vein. Yeah, well that's what that's what I was saying. I don't, but I just don't believe in the value of anything that comes out of you in the same kind of force, velocity and colour that it went into you. It's just expensive we. It's just expensive we. Who was the actress who dragged her own urine and got into the fire? Oh, Carol, I want to say Carol, drink water. That's just because she wasn't drinking water. She was a, she's now a very successful novelist and was on,

it couldn't have happened to a vet or whatever it was called. Carol drink urine. But it wasn't her. It wasn't her. So Carol, we apologise. I can picture her, I can picture her, I can picture her. We might have to throw that one over to Hannah. Hannah, could you look up actress who drank her own wee?

Thank you. And made a thing about it. Press on feet. My husband and I have brought up three children and have finished with the term time routine with the youngest about three years ago when he went to uni. Over that 25-year period, my husband always took time out from work at the half-term break,

which gave him respite every seven to eight weeks in one form or another a couple of days away or a staycation. But since then, we've been really bad at booking in the small breaks. When the kids were young, I never heard him say, I need a holiday. But these days, he says that often those school holidays gave him structured two. I've started putting something in the diary at regular intervals now, avoiding the school holidays, but giving us our own half-term breaks. I didn't realise how beneficial that routine was to us all until it was over.

Likely, we breathed a sigh of relief, but the reality is it was good for all of us. Many thanks, devoted listener. Well, good point, because the structure is good, isn't it? You're right, it's been the scaffolding of life for 20 years now. It just builds in without you realising a period of reflection. And if you're lucky, a chance to just get away from the routine. It's rather lovely. It's missed.

Did you find, because you're a couple of years ahead of me on this? Yes. We're going to have news, by the way, on drinking your own wee in a moment. I kind of want to be able to get to that before Google tells us. It's annoying. It is annoying, but those days are over. They've been talking about how terrifying the few. future might be and that's just one aspect of it.

Yeah. Anyway, what were we talking about before? Oh, half term. So did you embrace, did you have that kind of magic holiday, A, which cost half as much, in kind of October after both of your girls had gone where you just thought my routine's gone and I'm better for it or worse for it? I think COVID interfered with all this. God, it would have done, wouldn't it? I'm not entirely sure how we marked the fact that we didn't have those school holidays and uni holidays anymore. In fact, I don't think we marked it at all now I think about it.

But I really like that email because I think it really, the correspondent is absolutely right. Yeah. That part of our lives is something we should treasure. And perhaps if we're fortunate enough, we should, well, you can't. I mean, most people couldn't afford more than one holiday a year. But if you could just build in a system of taking a break from your routine and sort of following that school structure, it might do the world of good. Totally.

And I think also we don't realize how our bodies and our bodies and our bodies, minds have been built around that. So, you know, there's surely a temptation to think, oh, I don't have to take a school holiday off anymore, so I won't. And then you do end up doing 16 weeks work on the trot. Yeah. Because you can do, you know, maybe take two weeks off when you wouldn't previously have been able to. But your body and your mind wouldn't be used to that at all, would it?

No. So teachers must have it very, that must be in its own way a challenge for them because they go through education and then have a little break in terms of the structure, might go to uni or whatever, then they do their teaching qualification, then they're back in that rhythm of the school life again, aren't they? Sometimes for decades, and then they retire. Yes, you're right, so you've charted it very well, Jane.

Thank you. Marvelous. And we all know what comes after retirement, sadly, but we're trying to be optimistic. Yeah. Let's not go there. No, let's not. Let's bring in our young colleague, Hannah,

who I think does have news. Sarah Miles. That's Sarah Miles. And she described it as, Salty and malty. Ooh, we're saying Sarah. Can I ask? Is Sarah still with us?

Hold. Okay, let's check. I know that Bear Grills is also an advocate. Is he? Drinking his own urine. Okay. She's still here. Well, there you go.

Probably doing something. She's 84. Oh, well, I'm on, Sarah. I can't. I just can't help thinking, Jane, that if it was really of value to the world, then somebody would have bottled it and it would be an MLS.

I think you're right. If you were going to have an upmarket brand of... What would you call it? Well, obviously they've been just for ladies, she-wee. Dutchie urinials. Well, the way the royals are going. So that, instead of doing... That is brilliant.

Instead of doing a manual, we could just bottle famous people's... Yeah, there we go. And there's all our saga Cruise is paid for. Excellent. Thank you. Good. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

Right. If you have anything... If you've actually ever done it and you do think it has health benefits and we're not. Keep it to yourself. Please don't do it. Actually, if he's right, don't tell us.

But if you do want to tell us, it's Jane of Fee at Times Store radio. Salty Maltz. That's horrible. Now the playlist that we're going to put out It's called Coiled Spring, and I just want to run through a couple of suggestions from you. Anna says, I want to mention Run, Run, Run, Run by One Republic. I don't think I know this.

No, I didn't know. I'm in New Zealand, so less of a coiled spring here, more like falling leaves into autumn. Gosh, I still can't get my head around the fact that in other parts of the world, the snow drops are not bursting forth. However, my teenagers and I went to a one Republic concert a month ago, and I'm still reflecting on the joy, positivity and enthusiasm of this band. Look to the Rising Sun is my latest motto. It's a line in the song.

Right, we'll make a note of that. Anna, thank you very much. This is from Ali. My coiled spring playlist suggestion is a song by the Delays. It's a long time coming. Nothing else to add, apart from that the podcast is a much-needed tonic. Now, I did play that one on the Spotify, and I like it. It's indie rock.

Is it indie rock? settled for a bit of that. Lovely. And I think it's just delays, not the delays, but I'm absolutely with our correspondent. I like to put the definitive article thingy back in. I don't like all of this, you know, churches, the churches. E-L-O, the E-L-O.

Yes, because they were an orchestra. The Pink Floyd. The Pink Floyd. The Pink Floyd. Okay. Where does Pink Floyd the band title come from? No, I don't know. Stanley Kubrick.

I don't know. No idea. Emma says, as I missed the last playlist, Could Gloria by Laura Branigan make the cut? Yeah, it's good. Yes, it's good. Yeah, yes. And an epic suggestion from Barnes.

I really do rate this myself. Love it, in fact. Love is in the air by John Paul Young. Superal song. Love is in the air. Everywhere we look around. So that is going to be a cracking playlist. I think that's sounding really good.

Keep them coming, please. We probably have room for a few more. Coiled Spring is the name of our Bouncing into the Happy Time of Year playlist, Jane and Fee at Times dot radio. Now, did you talk about going to school a year early

when I was off on the podcast? We talked about going to lots of different schools but not specifically going to school a year early now. Well, I'll do this one then. Having listened to you for many years, I finally felt I had something to add to one of your stories. I tell you what, even if you listen along and you've got nothing to add

one of our stories, chuck in one of your own and start us off on a new path. I was so pleased to hear you discuss the effect of a childhood where moving was normal and going to new schools was nothing new. My story in brief. Now, hold tight everybody for this one. First four years in Italy moved to America. Parents divorced at eight, so move with mum back to the UK with less than 24 hours notice. While dad moved to Kenya, then Italy, then Switzerland, then finally back to America. I used to fly to visit him wherever he was, each school holiday. Are you keeping up with this? Barely, because this does sound tough.

Yeah. Well, my mum stayed in the UK, as did I. I went to six schools, including several state schools, a boarding school, and a sixth form college. It's taken me till now, I'm just shy of 50, to be able to really reflect on how this has affected me. As your guest mentioned, I guess the one positive is you can put me in any new situation, and I can smile, chat, and look, relax. Small talk comes easy, but inside, I'm hating it. I now find it very difficult to stay in one place for long, or,

wanting to move on to new things. I'm extraordinarily bad at looking and appreciating what I've got, appreciating the day and not looking to what next. I'm married with two teenage boys. My husband is quite used to me talking about moving house or changing towns or whatever adventures we might go on. I've recently curtailed this thanks to anti-anxiety meds and only dragged my children through four house moves in two different towns. Do I regret this? Yes. I can't help but be jealous of those people who can say where they come from, who have childhood memories and can reminisce about the things that they used to do, where they'd hang out with friends, first dates, etc. I can't because of all of this moving. I've got no memories of being young. Apparently this

can be quite normal when you have a stressful childhood as your body remains in survival mode. I crave close friendships and family. It's a shame it's taken me so long to figure this all out. As I had worked this out earlier, I would have created a more stable base for my own kids who I notice also have itchy feet and will probably follow my path. Hearing other people's stories helps me realise I'm not crazy. I just never got to settle. P.S. I saw it at the Barbican last year. It was brilliant. That's an exaggeration. It was perfectly adequate and thank you for coming along.

But I really, really, really feel for you, especially if you've got regrets. And because none of that, none of that is your fault. No. I mean, your parents, you know, for whatever reason, I don't want to pour cold water on what forced them into making all of these moves and, you know, cast aspersions on their love for you. But, you know, they've made

all of those choices to go different places and taken you along and to have no memories of being young and to not being able to join in those conversations. We have them so carelessly, don't we, about things that stir

memories in us, whether it's songs or places or books or whatever. So if you don't have that in your bank because your brain just says that's too painful a place to go, that's a lot. That is a lot to be contending with. And you write about it very lightly, actually, but I really hope that you don't take it out on yourself a bit too much.

I think your husband sounds lovely, actually, because he's obviously gone along with you on some things, but maybe he's the constant that, has helped in not going along with too many other things. So they as a family have moved four times. In two towns. But that's not huge. Just two towns in a kid's childhood is not too bad, is it?

Sounds bearable. I'm interested in the point about the listener says that she's good at small talk, but she doesn't really enjoy it. Sometimes I'm very jealous of people who appear to be able to navigate the social world with real ease. But you always have to bear in mind. They may not be actually enjoying it as much. they look as they are.

It's just something they've learnt to get through, to get themselves through social encounters. Definitely. Definitely. And I think that code shifting, you know, where you can just adopt the kind of veneer that you knows being expected of you in lots of different circumstances,

it's actually quite odd when you think about where that must be coming from because it's a lack of certainty and ability to just be yourself in every situation. So yeah, I think that is exhausting. And I think it often does come from exactly that you find yourself in a new place and it's you kind of mask yourself

don't you by thinking well I'll just do it like she's doing it because I don't really know what to do no it's real I do I genuinely can't I can't relate to it because my my own childhood and adolescence was so uneventful in a really good way and I think the older you get the more you appreciate

that definitely I'm having quite a big kind of chuckout of stuff at the moment and I have found lots and lots of stuff from early childhood including some menus that we used to be given on the flights that we took out to Hong Kong, which had four stopovers. Which airline?

Was it fly? I think it was pretty much only British Airways or Cathay Pacific that flew that far by then. But I might take a photograph actually and just detail. Because one of the reasons, so it looks like it's very lavish food. And we were always in donkey class right at the back of the plane. You know, we weren't flying first class or whatever. But these menus are so complicated with these veal cutlets and moose parts. half phase and all that kind of stuff. There's a meal in every single leg of the flight. There are

five legs of each flight. And it just brought back so many memories, you know, of being a really small child going this huge distance. So how young would you have been? Well, I think, well, we first started going when I was about four and then my sister and I first started going on our own when we're about 11 or 12, you know, and I do remember looking at my kids when they were 11 or 12 thinking, I'm not going to let you go to Islington, love. You know, Hong Kong via Tehran. But all I'm mentioning that for is I have a lot of sympathy with the going abroad thing because I think it can seem so glamorous on the outside.

And, you know, across the course of my adult life, I know that people have gone, oh gosh, that must have been amazing when I've said, you know, this was how we grew up. But of course, it's actually just a bit of a pain. You don't want to be on a 24-hour flight and go somewhere where you miss out on all of the holidays with your friends. It's not glamorous at all. It's not, just not.

Adults do ask a lot of their children at times, don't they? And I'm not blaming your parents, but it's just that we all do it, I think. We expect them to adjust to situations that we ourselves didn't have to confront. I mean, my parents didn't get divorced, but I did. And I expected my children to, yeah, to adjust, to adapt, to take it all on.

And it's hard. I mean you can't, but you can't get parent at 100% right, can you? No. Whatever you do, that's what our manual will be about. You can't get parented 100% right. Any of the time. Any of the time. I can see it.

It's a bestseller. It's going to fly off the charts, off the shelves. Should we call it buffer with us? No real decision-making capacity. Just a few jars of experience on the shelf. Anyway, more of those would be absolutely delightful. We love hearing about people's childhoods and all the things that shape you. it's interesting, really interesting.

Well, Caroline is just angry. She says long-time listener, many-time emailer, still haven't been read out. Well, look, Caroline. Now you have, your lucky day. You have been read out. I wonder if you might want to take a moment to tell your neighbours.

So I could just, we'll have a pause while you go and knock on a few doors, ring a few bells, jiggle about in front of the ring go bells or whatever they're called, what they called? Ring doorbells. Ring doorbells. Very ugly, ugly.

Why don't, why hasn't somebody made a nice kind of, you know, a nice brass effect one. I don't know, but somebody should. Hopefully by now, everybody in Caroline's life knows that she's being read out on off-air with Jane and Fe, so I'll press on. A quick rant, the use of the word blessed, she says. Oh, I'm with you.

Not in the context of religious words, but stuff like I'm blessed to have the most wonderful insert, child, marriage, career, etc., etc. I can't stand it. It makes me want to vomit. I'm not blessed. I work bloody hard to keep the ship upright, rant over. P.S. If you do read this, please say hi to my best friend Eve,

who's having a shit time. We're both fans. Eve, Caroline, consider yourselves very much acknowledged. Eve, I'm sorry you're having a shit time. I really, really do hope things improve, but it sounds like Caroline is very much in your corner. She sounds like a very good friend. Yeah, and I'm completely with you on blessed. It's just too much, isn't it? Well, I mean, also she's right. It's self-congratulatory and it's just a bit yuck. It's not very British. No. Pull yourselves together and have a dark time. Yes, like the rest of us.

Hannah is our professional home organiser. Declutter with Hannah is her website. And I'm within a probably one shoebox according you, Hannah, actually. So we'll meet in person quite soon. She wanted to draw our attention to a play that's on at the Arcola. Can you say the word for me, please? Theatre. Thank you.

In Dullston, which is called Quartet in Autumn. and she says, is this the Barbara Pim that you were talking about? And it is. Is it? So there's a Barbara Pim play on the Arcola in Dalston, which as soon as you pointed this out, I booked some tickets for in June. So I'm just saying a double thank you to declutter with hannah.com.

It's been adapted for the stage by Samantha Harvey, who won the prize for Orbital. Right. So isn't that a combination of things? Okay, so maybe Barbara Pym is making the comeback we have discussed. Isn't that bizarre? You're on some kind of a layline there. Oh, yes. Yeah, and it sounds absolutely lovely.

So it's, the novel is about four old friends in the autumn of their life. The autumn of that? That doesn't mean a thing to me. Come on, coiled spring. Yes, okay. Yeah, it sounds absolutely gorgeous. So thank you for drawing our attention to it. And I'll give you a full debrief. Well, I won't actually.

I'll just, I'll give you a line. Well, I mean, you were a little theatre resistant, aren't you? Yeah, a little bit. This feels like a big move on your part. Yeah, but I'm all right if I go with my Hackney friends, so we call ourselves the Hackney Culture Club. And we've got Boy George as our icon on the WhatsApp, and it helps if we go with other people, doesn't it?

Is he local? He's not at all. No, but we're trying to see challenging things. And actually the last play that we went to see, we did all find really quite challenging, but it's quite good fun. Is that the Panto with Jeremy Corby? No, but I wish we had gone along to the Panto with Jeremy Corbyn.

I've actually tried to wipe that from my mind. I don't want to talk about it. He did go. Yes, it was so crude. Oh. I can't believe that he knew what the actual content of it was. It was just beyond. It was just beyond.

There was so much sexual referencing of the most. So we went with 19, 20-year-old boys as well as a bit of a kind of parents and boys' outing. And they were so embarrassed by the humour. And thankfully we were sitting in different parts of the... You say it again. Thank you. So we didn't have to witness it.

But no, it was just disgusting, actually. Really disgusting. Was he thinking of? Anonymous makes this good point. As an Irish GP married to a wonder, wonderful Scotsman and living, working and paying my taxes here in the UK for over 30 years. I find it quizzical that I am a colonising immigrant according to the Ratcliffe classification, yet British immigrants working and living in the Middle East are deemed to be expats.

It's quite interesting that, isn't it? Say that again. So this is Jim Ratcliffe. Yes. Yes. Yes. Jim Ratcliff is the businessman who made some disobliging remarks about Britain, which was just ill-informed and frankly quite unpleasant. Yes, you basically said you're being colonised by immigrants. So basically Anonymous is taking issue with the idea

that British immigrants working and living in the Middle East are, I mean we do say this a lot, don't we, the expat community. I mean, they're not expats, they are immigrants to the place in which they've decided to settle. Now, at the moment there's a lot of focus on Dubai because, oh, and I do have sympathy for people who are stranded in Dubai, but there is also the class of individual

who decided to go there. To avoid paying tax here? Here in the UK, yeah. And there's one class of person I can't bear, it's those people who leave Britain and then slag it off. I just think, no, not having it. Because, yeah, our public services are not always perfect,

but they are dependent on people paying tax to keep them upright and running. So, yeah, I can see Anonymous's point there. Yeah. There have been some quite funny, and we should try and find humour and everything at the moment, shouldn't we, Jane, some quite funny postings about the influences of Dubai,

who found themselves stuck by the pool in their stick-on bikinis. Oh, my goodness, what are they going to do? And you're right, you know, I don't wish for anybody to be in danger, but at the same time maybe recognise your place in the world. I don't suppose it's sort of an awful lot of fun, if you're a woman in Tehran at the moment. I bet you like it isn't.

So, you know, the fact that you can bleat, and I am going to use that pejorative word, to your 2.2 million followers, whilst, you know, filming explosions from your five-star hotel. Take a beat. Just take a beat there, love. Self-awareness isn't a given, is it? Not always. No, not always.

And I can talk. Let's be clear about it. I wonder if, after this remark from another anonymous, If I end up in A&E needing all my clothes cut off me, then whether or not I'm wearing matching underwear would be the least of my worries. Geez. Nancy Bertwistle is a phenomenon.

In every decade of her life, she's turned her hand to something new and aced it, taking her dog to Crofts in her 30s, earning a master's degree in her 40s, learning French in her 50s, winning Bake Off in her 60s, and topping the bestseller charts in her 70s with her green guides to keeping your house clean.

She works her magic with things like baking soda, ivy and sunlight, and she's built up an almost cult-like following of people whose cupboards contain her cleaning recipes. Her message is very clear. You do not need chemicals in your life in order to be clean. Nancy, welcome to the afternoon show and off-air with Jane and Fee. How are you today? I'm very well. How are you two girls? Well, we're very well indeed.

Both of us have lost ourselves. in your latest book, Clean Magic, essential new tricks for a sparkling green home, because it contains such fantastic domestic wisdom. So we've got an awful lot of very specific questions about teetails and stains and all of that kind of stuff, but we'll try and broaden our conversation to include our lovely listeners.

And I think, first of all, for anybody who doesn't completely understand your manifesto, tell us a little bit about the magic, because actually that is more than just a noun to you, isn't it? I think where it all started which is over 10 years ago now I started to

and it started so simply I just flipped the bottle of fairy liquid that I had standing by the sink and the reverse label shocked me because it said toxic to aquatic life with long lasting effects I thought I've never noticed that before

we've got a baby on the front and we've got all this hazardous stuff going on at the back. So I then took a trip to the supermarket to find that this statement is on just about everything. And I think every cleaning product, I should say. And I think I've been around long enough to remember my grandmother using things like bicarbonate of soda and vinegar, but not in a sophisticated way or a 21st century type way. She just used to sprinkle bi-carb in the bath

and she'd pour vinegar down the sink and this sort of thing. And I think over the years we've become brainwashed into believing that natural products are inferior to the harmful synthetic fragrances that we've got used to. And so I just set off on, I started off very simply and then just kept going and it's become a whole lifestyle change really. And I think there is definitely an appetite for it

because more and more people, well, I mean, the books are speaking for themselves. Aren't they just? And is it true, Nancy, that actually you struggle to get the first book published? I mean, there must be some boardrooms of publishing houses that have the, the censors. of regret about them, I would have thought.

Yeah, I mean, my first book. Obviously, I had a bake-off win under my belt, and I went round to so many publishers, as did my agent on my behalf, lots of London publishing houses, and I just couldn't get anything off the ground. I was told the market was saturated. I'd included, it was basically a baking and cooking book,

but I'd included a sustainability chapter at the end. where I'd talked about switching to green alternatives for cleaning. And so I had to self-publish, yeah. And it took a lot out of me because I signed every single copy and dispatched 12,000 from my dining room. Right. Well, good for you. Good for you. I mean, it's paid off, hasn't it? If people want to start somewhere, they should start by making some of your extraordinary magic potions.

So what do they need and what will they then be able to do? Well, I think what I do, if I was starting from scratch and I get messages from lots of people saying, I've bought the books and I'm ready to start, what shall I do? And it can seem because it really is a lifestyle change. And so I would wait and see which bottle runs out first under the sink and whichever it is decide to replace that with a homemade recipe. I think a really good all-rounder is my all-purpose spray

because it has so many uses. You can use it to clean the sink, the bathroom, you can clean your car interior, you can clean glass and mirrors, cupboards, all that sort of thing. It'll cut through grass. Cut through grass. Cut through grease.

It'll cut through grease. And that's a good starting point, I think. Do you think one of the biggest blockers to people taking up your challenge to be cleaner and greener is that they think that they might actually be putting themselves and their family at risk because we have very much been sold the message that chemicals and strong chemicals are necessary in our house. That antibacterial thing is what's going to save us

and we can only find it in a bottle with chemicals in it. Well, I think at the end of the day, we've gone too much the other way. I think people are afraid of... I mean, I got a message from a follower because I've got my own laundry detergent liquid in there. And I got a message from a follower, this is going back a few years.

And she said, but what about the bacteria on socks? And I'm thinking... I mean, there will be specialists out there that will disagree with me, but I'm thinking bacteria on socks, Without bacteria, we would probably not survive because we have bacteria in our skin, we have bacteria in our gut. It's not all harmful. And if we switch over to natural products, washing soda, sodium carbonate is naturally anti-back.

Vinegar is naturally anti-back. And so my own personal feeling is, I think we've gone too far the other way. Sure. And is there a recipe in your books that people can turn to that you know will kill as many bacteria if you did want to kill any bacteria? And is antiviral in the same way that a lot of cleaning products claim to be? Well, obviously, I haven't got the facility to be able to test bacteria under my products. what I would say is my all-purpose cleaner does have surgical spirit in it. And if you remember, there was surgical spirit in hand sanitizers and things. So I'm perfect, I'm more than comfortable with using my all-purpose spray to wipe down surfaces before I start cooking,

to wipe down my boards, to clean down the bathroom and that sort of thing. You know, if people are so, so nervous about germs and bacteria, I'd be more nervous of the chemicals that have been put in those products. I really would. Yeah. And how old are you now, Nancy, if that's not too pertinent, a question? 71, knocking on the door of 72 next month. Right, and you look fabulous and you sound fabulous,

so it's definitely working for you. We have got some questions from our listeners. This one comes in from David, who's gotten a special. Crosso coffee spill on a cream wool carpet. Gosh, yeah. It's a man of some taste, isn't he? He's used to spot clean vac to clean it immediately, but the stain remains. Help, please.

How can you help, David? Right. Well, tea and coffee stains on carpets came in my first book, but basically it's a good all-round recipe that will shift coffee, tea, fruit juice, dog asses, accidents, vomit, it's really good. And you just want tepid water, two or three tablespoons of white vinegar, a squirt of eco-friendly washing up liquid, not fairy. And don't froth it up. Just use it as a solution and work from the outside of the stain working inwards. Dab at the carpet, don't rub it, and don't overwet it. Okay. That's very sensible advice. You should know as well

that our colleague Hugo Rifkin had a bit of dog vomit on a tufted wool stair carpet. We discussed this on his show earlier this morning and it turns out on page 168 of Clean Magic Nancy, you've got a solution to exactly that.

It's extraordinary. So we've handed it on to Hugo. We're very much hoping for some before and after shots but if somebody else has got the same thing going down you recall a follower, I'm reading now, feeling that she would need to throw Her beautiful lambs will rug away because a sick dog had stained it badly. Rather than throw it away, we decided to try this instead.

And you need a wooden spoon, a metal dog comb, very hot water, some wool detergent, green bleach, fabric softener. Bob's your uncle, off you go. I mean, there's nothing that you can't tackle, is there? Yes. Yeah. It's, I will give anything a go. And obviously, some of the, I've tackled lots of cleaning problems that have presented to me in my own house. house and family.

But then what's also useful is people do send me questions and this was one of them. And I didn't have the said rug with vomit on it. But I said, look, if you're not worried about it and you were going to throw it away anyway, let's try this. And so that's really satisfying when we can sort something out across social media with followers. Yeah. Well, Chuck, some more questions your way in the last. 10 minutes of the interview, but so much else to talk about.

You did win Bake Off. Do you think Nigella Lawson is a good choice for the replacement for Prue Leith? I think Nigella will be absolutely brilliant. I mean, I do know her a little bit, and she is such fun and a lovely person. And I think she will fill those bakers with confidence, actually. Yeah, I think it's a genius, genius. choice. I worry rather that Paul Hollywood might explode though.

Do you think he'll cope? I can't wait to watch. I cannot wait. I think it'll be hilarious in lots of ways. Yeah, I think so too. I just think he would have met his match. I mean, he's had fantastic, fantastic co-presenters so far in Mary Berry and Prue Leith, but I think

Nigella might just fell him. What was your favourite showstopper or bake that you made on the bake-off, Nancy? I think the final, obviously, was, there were parts of it I can't even remember because it was so full on.

But for me, in that final, I think everything just seemed to slot into place. And my red windmill, my Moulin Rouge, I'd practiced it so many times. and I was on my knees because the last practice was through the night because I couldn't get it done in the time. We had five hours and I couldn't get it done in five hours. So I did my very last practice from midnight to, I don't know, five in the morning, something like that.

And so by the time I got into the bake-off tent for the final, I was completely sleep deprived. I mean, you know, it wasn't until afterwards that you realised just how tiring it was. But that last practice made such a difference because it gave me a confidence that I could do it in the time because I was left with 10 minutes spare. And it all went to plan. So I think that has to be my favourite bake, the favourite shows to supper. Hang on a second, Nancy. You did that practice bake the night before you went into the tent for the actual final day?

No, no. We used to have to leave home on the Friday to arrive at the time. tent Friday night and then start work Saturday morning. So it was that. So you're done it the Thursday night. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. But once I got to the venue, I didn't sleep like a log at all. I don't think anybody does. You know, you're just thinking through what's going to happen the next day, rehearsing in your head, the order that you're going to do things, worrying about what the technical challenge might be and whether you've got everything covered and yeah. Yeah. I understand. Standard is so, so high, isn't it?

I did think I'm just such a fan of the whole series, but I did worry slightly in the last series that everything was completely and utterly beyond my ability to try at home as a very, very amateur home baker. Do you worry about that at all? Yes, because, I mean, Bake-off when I first became a fan, I found it really inspirational.

I used to practice the technical challenge. Never thinking I would ever do the show myself, but I used to practice the technical challenge. I remember practicing Mary's chocolate tea cakes, and they were brilliant. And so it made me want to try new things. I think when it gets too complex and too completely off the wall, all right, it's TV and it's entertainment,

but it's not going to make you want to go and get in the kitchen. Yeah, I completely, completely agree. It's the sugar domes that I couldn't cope with in the last one. I'm never going to wake up on a Saturday. No, I go, oh, I want to make a sugar dome today. But you have been on Bake Off, haven't you? Sport relief one. Yeah, years and years ago, and they couldn't find anybody else.

What did you make? Well, I tried to make sausage rolls, and my pastry was very odd. I ended up making a sausage roll that looked like the art of man, right? Okay. I didn't win. It's a tribute to the art of man. Not really. I don't know what happened.

Do you want to do Rosie's career? Can you help Rosie out, please, Nancy? She says, please, please. I mean, she's a desperate woman. My baby has knocked oil-based foundation makeup onto my cream carpet. How to remove, she asks. I mean, she's begging you. Any ideas?

Right. There is a recipe in here that I call Basic Magic. And it's a good grease buster. What is is? basically is 50 grams of washing soda in a jug, pour over 200 mils of boiling water, stir it until it goes sort of a milky, cloudy colour, let it cool, add about 10 mils of eco-friendly washing up liquid. And what you get is a sort of thin syrup. And that is really, really good at dissolving grease.

and chocolate and things like that from carpets and upholstery. Again, cotton pad dab at it, don't rub it, and you'll see that that grease will lift off. Okay, Rosie, I wish we had the baby's name, because sometimes it's good to name and shame, isn't it? But Rosie, I hope you were listening, and you can pay attention to that advice there. You do mention in the book, Nancy, that there are certain things that you mustn't put down your sink, down the plug-hole. and I must admit I'd have to plead guilty to quite a few of them. Flower is one. Now I'd never thought about that.

What's the problem with flour? Well, you see, I only found out that this was a problem because I created a problem in my own sink, which I talk about in here. I came in the kitchen. I had this lovely white gleaming sink. You looked down it. It was nice and shiny, but there was a smell. And it wasn't slow flowing, so the water was running away all right,

but there was a smell. I went outside and I thought, well, it's not coming from outside. It's something in here. And I unveiled this chamber of horrors when I took the plug hole out to find it was thick, black, slimy, stinking awfulness. And what that was really was probably years of collection of debris that had got down the sink and got stuck just under the plug hole. Right. And so it's things like flour, bits of pasta, bits of rice, bread. I'm terrible for the breadboard, just, you know, if there's any crumbs, just slinging them into the sink.

I put them in the bin now. But it's, it's, and all of these things sort of to congeal and then get thicker and then what you have is a nasty mess under your sink. We don't want that. Rosie's come back in and identified the baby as Harry who is apparently the naughty child that's Rosie's saying that, not me and Colin has got a fantastic, fantastic kind of end of days take the moral of the story is don't have a cream carpet

and I'm with you there Cole actually don't I mean do have a baby though have a baby yes yeah a cream carpet is just an absolute lifetime of tutting isn't it? It's an odd choice I would say at any time of life for cream carpet. Nancy, what was your masters in? Business administration. I got a master's in business administration.

I used to work in management before I left to take up retirement, if that's what you call it. You've done well out of retirement, don't you? Do you ever have days when you yearn to be back in an office, Nancy? Absolutely, 100% not. I realise it was not worth. it was the job that was wrong for me because I retired quite early at 52

and within six months I hated it and I thought yeah it's not that I want to retire and just potter about and go for coffees and things I don't want to do that I like to be full on busy and I am Yes you are you certainly are What type of dog did you show at Crofts? a Labrador

which she thought she was actually a working sheep dog because I went to a class that she was the only Labrador all the others were working sheep dogs so if she saw another working sheep dog she was really really pleased if she saw another Labrador just pass them by and so when you took it to Crofts did you enter her in the working sheep dog category

did anyone notice she was in the obedience section so she was fine being a different breed. Okay. Well, and did you win? No, no, I didn't win. I realised that I couldn't realize. This dog had been so fantastic

and I'd taken her to a championship show because to qualify for Crufts, you have to accumulate so many points. So you have to go to different shows through the year. And she'd been to the Isle of Man, championship show the temperature was something like 32 degrees it was a scorcher and people were saying keep your dog cool you know

she won't be able to work in this heat she cleared the board she did all clear rounds brilliant I qualified for Crofts it was back in the day when it was in Earl's Court I think it was 1989 and he had to leave your dog in a sitting position and then walk out of the ring for five minutes and then come back and as I walk

walked out of the ring. There were lots of other dogs, but I heard lots of laughing. And anyway, when I came back, all of the dogs were sitting there. My dog was laid on a back with legs in the air, full on, flat out, asleep. Okay. I'm with the dog. What was the dog called? Meg. Meg. Well, well, I'm channeling Meg. Nancy Birkwistle, clean magic, essential new tricks for a sparkling green home is out now. You sound all bonged up just then. I'm going to blow my nose, but I'm not going to do that on the microphone. No, okay, let's spare everybody to do that. Right.

Nancy Birkwistle, clean magic is the name of her manual. Thank you very much for putting up with this. A couple of things then. You need to act fast if you want to get on the coiled spring playlist. Bung us your emails on that. And we are going to do Neville shoot town like Alice in our book club review, probably the end of next week, so get a good shifty on with that. Yes, hope so. Right. It is continuing to both entertain and irritate me, I have to say. Right, thank you very much. I've already said that, so I mean, nobody wants to hear me repeating myself. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

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