Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Slightly more advanced on the nipple-o-meter (with Molly Jong-Fast)

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

Who do you think should feature on the new bank notes? Perhaps two plucky five-foot-nothing brunette lady broadcasters? Just a suggestion... Jane and Fi also ponder hedgehogs, bobble hats — bobble hats mistaken for hedgehogs — politicians’ rent-a-mobs, and the haunting beauty of Bath. Plus, writer and political commentator Molly Jong-Fast discusses her relationship with her mother, Erica Jong, in her new book 'How to Lose Your Mother: A Daughter’s Memoir'. If you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It is, it's because they can kind of see each other. There was just something so lovely about it. It just felt like we were a really proper triptych. What was that noise? Triptych! This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep, the one and only. Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things

to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park. Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf. The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these things. There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast we're chatting to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Lonnie G.

Bunch, who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash wdc. Right, it's Wednesday and we've reconvened, reconvened even, at Times Towers with our fresh-faced assistant Eve. Back from Glastonbury and I think she looks really, really well. Let's talk about her as if she's not in the room. Yeah, let's. Well, normally when she comes back from anything approaching a function she can't hardly speak.

But I have to say we've heard her loud and clear this morning haven't we? We have, yeah. But she's had a great time and she looks clean. She smells clean. And she looks very fresh-faced and she's had a cracker as well, which is really good. Yes, because I think a lot of the young people, a lot of old farts were underwhelmed by the Glastonbury line-up, weren't they? But it turns out that lots of young people have loved it. Oh, I thought this year it really appealed to the old farts, because you had your Neil

Young and your Rod Stewart and your pulp zoomed in. Yeah, okay, I've just... Your cure. You're right. Basically, farts old and young were satisfied. Yeah. Old, young and I've just... You're cured. You're right. Basically, Farts Old and Young were satisfied. Yeah. Old, Young and Neil Young were all satisfied. Let's not talk about it. I'm so...

I'm okay, actually, without too much more of a debrief, but just one from Jennifer Joint. Jennifer Joint? Is that your real name? Jenny Joint? Yes. Where has she been? But it's a J-O-Y-N-T. OK. But I suspect over the years there have been quite a few jokes there.

Hello Jane and Fee, I'm heading back up north on the train after spending eight days at Glastonbury. I recently relocated from Auckland so found my way to Glastonbury by landing a job on a food truck. The 14 hour days selling bacon, butties and steak, followed by three hours sleep to make the most of the fun was totally worth it. I'm 48 and have wanted to go for decades. Our food truck was close to the pyramid stage so I was able to duck out and see loads of acts including Rod Stewart, John Doherty, Olivia Rodriguez and many more. Due to the long hours at work I saw more of the late night antics, the atmosphere was amazing, everybody was brewing with happiness and excitement. I'm absolutely broken physically but feel so happy to have finally made it there. I will definitely go again hopefully next time without all of the bacon selling. I've added some photos of myself and

friends Sam to show that you're never too old for a gap year and a hearty dose of fun. And you know what Jenny you just look absolutely amazing. I don't know which is which, but both of you look really beautiful. You've totally, totally nailed the festival look. And you've got these amazing hats on. And I can smell the streaky bacon from here. But I'm glad you had such a cracking time. And what a fantastic thing to do. So that was stamina that would take. Incredible stamina. I'm really glad, especially if you've had a lifetime ambition

to go to something and then it lives up to expectations. Yeah, how wonderful. That's fabulous, isn't it? So Jenny Joint, thank you very much indeed. I'm quite surprised there was such enthusiasm for porky based meat products. I would have thought it'd be all falafel-a-go-go there. Well, let's ask Eve. Come in, Eve. Hello, Eve. Let's hear those golden tonsils. It's still with us, Eve, drifting off a bit there. Hello. I suppose if people are hungover,

then they probably want some bacon in the morning. Well, you wouldn't know, would you? No, I wouldn't know. Falafel are us. Yeah, but also you wouldn't be hungover. No, that's also true. Thank you. When you're wandering around all of the food stores, is it rare to have a waft of meat

juice? There's something like over 350 food stores, so there is a waft of absolutely everything, including toilets and bins. Okay, that's enough wafts. Sorry, lots of wafts. Well, as Jade and I have discussed previously, we're both a little bit concerned about the toilet facilities at festivals because of the vegans. I guess there's nothing like a good old dose of meat to bung you up, which is what everybody needs at a festival.

British TV star Noel Edmonds Wellness Centre hit by floods. Over to my colleague. Well I had no idea. I was just looking for that but oh, here we are. This is very bad news, isn't it? It is and I'm having my opinion turned on Noel Edmonds. Well, I mean you've been rod positive, you've been rod negative. I'm rod ambivalent at the moment. Okay, you're experiencing rod ambivalence. Right, I think I've had that for well over a decade. Isabel is in New Zealand, god lover, and so is Noel. And she says, hi, Fian Jane and Eve. You talk about Noel Edmonds from time to time. So I thought you'd be interested in reading this article.

Hopefully you can see it. Yes, well, we've been able to make it big so we can. Basically, poor Noel and his wife have had their wellness retreat in Muttaker, I'm going to mispronounce that horribly, it's on the South Island anyway, completely flooded last week. They've spent about 30 million dollars on it and it seems it's pretty much destroyed. I know they have upset many locals with some of their development, but it's still a sad situation for them and for many other horticulturists in the area. Yes, absolutely

I think you've been very fair there in what you've said, but it's true TV presenter Noel Edmonds has shown the damage done to his River Haven estate after extreme weather Which lashed parts of the country last week. This is a report from New Zealand It was purchased by Edmonds and his wife Elizabeth in 2022. It's got a cafe, a pub and a vineyard. Oh and Edmunds has explained he was reviewing his business in New Zealand after the bad weather lost him three years of hard graft in just a couple of hours. Extreme weather, we used to laugh at all this. It's just not funny anymore. Well you know, I mean some people did. I'm talking 20 years ago.

If there was a sort of wet weather in Britain, it would be a talking point. But it's just not funny anywhere in the world now. And it's undeniably really, really challenging. And even, I don't want to be too parochial, but the last couple of days of extreme heat in London has been incredibly difficult to live through. But do we change our behaviour enough? Well, I still think a lot of people don't really want to talk about what this might mean. I mean, without being too saccharine for our great grandchildren and their great grandchildren, when are we going to actually properly start to address this? I don't know.

And I should say it was quite interesting yesterday this? I don't know. And I should say it was quite interesting yesterday that we were bellyaching and look it has been insufferable in London and people were pointing out on the Times radio show that actually it was 1514 Celsius in Edinburgh. Yeah, there was a heat bubble over the South East. There really was and parts of Britain were completely unaffected if anything. They were having a traditional ropey British summer. But what we'd have given to experience that yesterday,

oh, I'd have done anything. But quite a few people have also pointed out, in fact, we had a fantastic email from a visitor to this country who said that before she came, if I talk slowly, would you be able to find that one because it's really good, just about London heat in particular. And to give it another plug

because I'm just enjoying the journalism on it so much there's this fantastic journalist website called London Centric which is available on the sub stack and it is run by Jim Waterston. I don't know him personally so this isn't some kind of an affiliated sponsorship saying but he does some really really good journalism and one of the pieces up on London Centric is about London heat and why the city just copes so badly with hot weather and it is to do with the way that the buildings have been built, the proximity to each other, the amount of glass fronted flats, the lack of the

you know green space by the waterways and all of that. It's really well worth a read because we definitely have not ever built a city that can withstand the kind of temperatures that are going to be coming at it. So our lovely correspondent had visited from afar, don't worry, I'll find it eventually, had said exactly the same thing that actually she had just up and left and she could completely see what we were going on about. But we have also mentioned in the past and I think recently as well the challenge of living in a new build when you've got lots of large glass windows again no thought given to the change in our climate which maybe we should just be honest about this

the change in the climate in the south of the country. I mean, I know that the Mersey Riviera continues to experience pretty reasonable summer weather conditions of 22 Celsius on a good day. And that's, listen, I'm not knocking it. How lovely can that be? Is it calling you back? It was at the weekend, because actually it was really, really just about bearable. It was it was gorgeous because you had that breeze, the breeze I used to complain about wafting in from the Irish sea but it was refreshing. Yeah. Have you got it? I haven't. Shall we move on to Women's Strike Day? More information. Swimming in Zurich. Yes, go on. So we wanted to find out a bit more about Lady's Strike Day. I think the

subtitle of it is No Step Back. This comes in from Maria. Together for more equality. This is the definition. Equality is still a long way off. Women earn an average of 1,364 Swiss francs less than men. Traditional female occupations continue to be less well paid. Every second woman experiences sexual harassment at work, every second woman. And internationally right-wing forces are launching frontal attacks on equality policies. Instead of finally eliminating discrimination we're facing the threat of massive setbacks. That's why we are mobilising and taking to the streets across Switzerland on June 14th,

2025. So this is the women's strike, Ladies' Strike Day that was mentioned. The demands end wage discrimination, raise low wages, stop setbacks, expand childcare and combat sexual harassment. And our correspondent goes on to remind us that Switzerland was very late to the party with voting for women. Was it in the 1970s? It was in the 70s. I think it was 72, 73. Yeah. That's Czech. Do you mind? And obviously some issues remain. Is she?

Well, a springing might be an exaggeration. As in many other countries, but protest is alive and kicking in Switzerland, with a permit, of course. Yes, of course. Let us know how your strike day went. What's the answer, Eve? I'm on your website. What are you searching? This is what we're dealing with. Okay. What's the answer Eve? I'm searching. What are you searching? Where are you? This is what we're dealing with. Okay.

You're searching. When did Swiss women get the vote? My learned colleague thinks it's 1972 and I don't think she's far off. 1971. 1970, you weren't far off. I tell you what, you definitely have deserved the vote. You're a very clever lady. Well no, because I got it wrong.

I wouldn't get it without you. You had a really good guess. I'd be close but no cigar. I didn't even guess. There is a debate in Britain now about who should go on the banknotes. Oh this is always great. So I just think if anyone listening wants to nominate two well-respected, you know, plucky middle-aged lady podcasters, then why not write in? Start the campaign here. Which note would you like to be on? It's not as big an issue as it used to be because obviously cash is... It's really not. Maybe not the thing it was, although I've definitely got some under my bed in my special emergency box. Okay, don't tell the public that. No, you shouldn't. Especially not in the hot weather when we know you've got your windows open.

I've only got £15. Yes, it's not worth it. Need to make it clear. Okay, cat burglars. It's not worth it. No, don't steal the cat. I would like to be on a little slippery plastic fibre. Would you?

Okay, yes. I mean, there was an absolute kerfuffle, wasn't there, when Jane Austen finally met. And until then, and it was terrible when you actually thought about it, the Queen had been the only female on a banknote. What was that all about? There are so many things we just sort of accepted as being entirely reasonable and just the way things were until somebody started to ask some questions. Well never forget Jane that we still have prima genitura in this country.

Don't we? In terms of the royal family? Yes. No we don't now. In terms of the descendants? No they've stopped that. Have they? I'm sorry.

No in the royals they have. So for example had Catherine and William's eldest child been Charlotte, then she would have been Queen. What am I talking about? All of this Switzerland nonsense has completely gone to my head. You're very close to order. Clearly the Glovers are sticking to the old ways. I think that's not the reason why I've inherited nothing, Jane.

The Windsors have definitely moved on. Say what you like about them. My apologies. A massive physio. The Windsors have definitely moved on. Say what you like about them. My apologies. A massive physio. My historical knowledge emerged there. I was just suddenly thinking why isn't Princess Anne Queen, but of course she's not the oldest. She's not the oldest. And you've always had a thing about Princess Anne. I have.

She's got many admirers. Yeah, no, I think she's remarkable. I don't think she gets... Why are you laughing? Well, not only because she's been a bit surly with me on the occasions I've met her, but no, why would she give a toss about me? But it's great that... Well, now's your chance to make it up to her. She was the first royal I ever waved at when we were corralled as brownies into welcoming her to the opening of our marina in Waterloo. So you didn't have any options. I mean, let's be honest, there's an element of rent a mob when a royal comes to town.

How very day uniformed groups like the Brownies were just basically told to report the duty. It's like at the moment, Sir Keir Starmer, our prime minister, he's been. Hang on. You missed out. Beleaguered, beleaguered Prime Minister, well done sister. So he likes a photo opportunity outside London. So recently he has been photographed in so many factories with these poor board workers standing behind him and they're clearly saying I could have been out at Gregg's getting my sausage roll. I'm having to stand here

you know looking interested. Well I'm going to stand here, you know, looking interested. Well I'm going to mimic one of them. Part of a relevant workforce and they are just beyond bored. Well they are beyond bored. Give me a look. Well, okay, but they always make sure they've got one or two young women, so particularly if it's heavy engineering, so they always make sure that he stands in, he's got his lectern and he's in his suit and he's always standing in front of this,

as you say, board to tears workforce. Can I just say that actually every kind of diversity hire is always made available in the shop. Prominent. You can't just have a load of, let's be honest, young white blokes. They've always got to have a representation of Britain's, let's be honest, intoxicatingly varied society. Yes, wonderfully varied society. Good to see it.

Absolutely. So this is my impersonation. Yes, very good. So ladies and gentlemen, she's got a middle-distance stare, suggesting that she too may have spent a little too much time in the healing fields and you've got a downturn mouth. Yeah. And just quite a kind of... Actually that wasn't that was just the way I look. Yeah. You look bored and soggy. It just reminds me of my school reunion thing I went to the weekend. We were allowed to wander around the buildings and I just remember some things just come back to you and I stood outside the staff room and honestly I could hear a teacher saying to me, and you can take that look off your

face. And I remember saying, but I'm not, honestly I wasn't putting a look on, that's just my face. And I stood in that, exactly that spot and I heard those words all over again. I saw my art teacher, did I tell you about this? No, you've got a teacher still alive. Oh yeah, they had teachers still alive. Really? No, you've got a teacher still alive. Oh yeah, they had teachers still alive. Really? She was there.

She's in her late 90s. Well, it's just because I know that you've achieved a great age. I'm told this on a daily basis. So the art teacher was there, who was a great woman actually, I won't name her, but she was. She created, there's something about the atmosphere an art teacher can create in the art room. It's a kind of sanctuary, isn't it?

I think for a lot of pupils. Yeah, and I really admire that. I wasn't any good at art at all, I was hopeless but she still sort of tolerated me after a fashion. Anyway I thanked her for that and on Saturday I just said look, thank you because I wasn't any good at art and she said no you weren't. And she remembered. Well then she said it hasn't really done you all that much harm. And I said no and that was the end of our encounter. Okay well that's a backhanded compliment isn't it? Yeah I think so yeah yeah absolutely. I quite like, can we just briefly mention graffiti? Oh yes yeah. Ruth says her very favourite bit of graffiti was fuck anger. Can we use that? It's quite effective isn't it? And Sean says I

don't share Fee's sneaking admiration for graffiti artists. Well I think it was both of us actually who confessed, if you have to confess, to a sneaking regard for graffiti artists. But Sean says I do recall one example of the genre that I used to see from the train into London Bridge station which brought me some satisfaction. This particular artist had ignored the inherent dangers of night-time railway trespass to express his disdain for us commuters. Their work, fifty foot long and in letters six foot high, read, Get to work you losers! The message, having lost all of its excoriating impact, just made me smile.

I made my way to my admittedly humdrum job, happy in the knowledge that at least I could spell. And that's because Mr Graffiti had spelt losers with two O's. So brilliant. Lots of clever, are you? Actually. I don't mind a bit of street art and I'm afraid, I know some people find it dreadful, absolutely shocking that graffiti exists, but you get so used to it in London. I find it quite strange when I go, we went to bath.

I know, other people may call it bath, but it would be weird and pretentious if I suddenly did that. We went to bath the other day and one of the things that we really noticed was just how clean all the buildings are. But there's no graffiti there. No, because we get so, we're just so used to it where we live. It's just absolutely everywhere. And people just don't really bother to take it off stuff anymore. It's just there. What kind of graffiti would be appropriate in Bath Bath?

Well, I think some Roman numerals. Right. Something about the great Jane Austen, of course. Yes. But what exactly? Oh, I don't know. Well, she didn't like Bath, did she? She went often enough, but she wasn't a massive fan.

I'm not sure. The whole social scene there does sound really... Claustrophobic? Yeah. I mean, just being paraded in front of potential suitors and I don't know I don't think I'd have got on with it but I think as a destination it's a place that properly delivers. I think it's genuinely beautiful. It's actually quite heartbreaking how lovely it is. Heartbreaking? Why is it heartbreaking? Just because sometimes you just think oh

this I don't know there's something yeah challenges me in a way that these places still exist. It's a good thing. Okay, because it's kind of achingly beautiful. Yes, and sometimes you look at modern architecture and think, Oh dear. Yes, crikey O'Reilly. Yeah, brutalism, I just don't understand that at all. And there's a very well-known case, isn't there, in London of a brutalist building that

was going to be given, I think, grade one listing. Is that Trellick Tower? No it's the one out by the Blackwall Tunnel and they did a survey though the people who lived there and asked them whether or not they wanted it to stay forevermore or they'd like it knocked down or refurbished or whatever it was and a very high proportion of people who lived on the tower block estate wanted it changed but because it had this incredible architecture that I think that argument kind of won out you just think what's going on there what is going on there I don't I don't like that at all and I know what you mean actually about Bath it definitely stirs something doesn't it which is I think you put your

finger on something there it is a slightly melancholy reaction isn't it? Which is, I think you've put your finger on something there. It is a slightly melancholy reaction, isn't it? Well, maybe I thought I was alone, but if you understand it... You're never alone. No, not at all. I'm never alone with a podcast. Which is why, can I just say, it's why podcasts have worked. I just, I do feel sometimes an overwhelming sadness about beauty. Sometimes when you go into a fantastic cathedral, you can feel the same. Even if you're not remotely religious. Just think, well, I just think, I mean, you know, back to old Ken Follett,

where there's many, many novels about building cathedrals. I mean, just the effort. It's just astonishing. And the solemnity. And the solemnity and the determination to create something beautiful and magnificent and grandiose and everlasting. Yeah. Yeah. I always think there's an air inside, a type of air, isn't there, inside a big church

where you properly, properly feel that it's been breathed before by generations of people. It's a cold, chilly kind of, I don't know, it's got a different timbre to it, doesn't it? Well, it's just a reminder that none of us are here forever. Thank you. Oh dear lord. You may have missed this nugget from last year, Hedgehog Bobble to the Rescue. This one comes in from Lucy. It's fantastic. And she sent us a clipping. We always welcome a clipping. From the font, it looks like this may even have been from the times. See, I think it is. Finding a stricken hoglet, lifeless and abandoned, the animal lover did what anybody would do.

The headline is rescued baby hedgehog was a bobble. She scooped it up, placed it in a cardboard box with some food, took it to a wildlife hospital. Only once there did the vets realise what it was, a fluffy bobble from a knitted hat. And they've got a picture of the little hog glitz with the food next door to it. But sadly it was what food went on eating. It was just a bobble. Oh dear, the Good Samaritan who made the discovery wished to remain anonymous. Can we just have that again? The Good Samaritan who made the discovery wish to remain anonymous. Can we just have that again? The Good Samaritan who made the discovery wish to remain anonymous. Because they've been basically taken for a right ride.

Incredibly thick. The fact that they, did they not begin to question when they picked it up? Well I think because, okay so it's just just the bobbles, it's been in water, and then it's got a little bit crusty. And I mean, I know what you mean. Sometimes when you pick up those things, especially if they've lived outside for a while, they can be a bit too spiky.

Oh, God, you're being very kind. The manager of Lower Moss Nature Reserve and Wildlife Hospital in Knutsford in Cheshire said I did find it funny afterwards but I couldn't quite believe what I was seeing because to me a hedgehog was obviously a hedgehog. I would have known immediately from the weight a bobble weighs nothing but bless her, the lady's heart was in the right place. It's just the bobble had no heart. Yeah, I mean I'm a big fan of the beanie. I've never understood the bobble hat. no heart. Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of the beanie.

I've never understood the bobble hat. I don't think it works on anyone. It doesn't, does it? Unless you're three and impossibly cute, don't wear a bobble hat. Yeah, no, I'm completely with you on that. In fact, I find the older I get, the harder it is to find a winter hat that is suitable.

I just, there are photographs that suggest it's an ongoing search in my life. Keep going. I mean, we did have an incident. Should we just mention the incidents of a bare-chested male in the building yesterday? Oh, let's. Let's just see how people feel about this. It wasn't easy for us, was it?

Well, I couldn't really see it because of the way that we sit in the studios. So we were doing our radio show. There was lots of very, very serious news around yesterday. So the juxtaposition between discussing the welfare reform bill, we did an interview with the son of the former Shah of Iran, Paula Radcliffe was on the programme talking about the difficulty of finding out that one of your children is very seriously ill. Some absolutely mega stuff was being done. This is what we do Monday to Thursday, two till four, available on the app. And Jane had a vision out of the corner of her eye of...

Well, well known... Well, is he well known actually? Because I may have to explain who he is, so not really. I mentioned it at home and there was... So he was the lead singer of the Libertines, wasn't he? Pete Doherty and he had terrible drug problems and he's in credit to the man, he's turned himself around very much so and he's now living in France and he was performing on Virgin Radio, our sister or is it brother or doesn't it matter anymore these days you can't say anything can you? Here at Times Towers Virgin Radio, good tunes 24 hours a day and he was doing some crooning for them live and look credit to the man he's talented

but he was dressed yesterday afternoon in a pork pie hat, braces and trousers No top! No top everybody! And also didn't he have a baby with him? He had a very, and she was very sweet little girl, and there was an older woman in the mix, I don't know who this lady was, but I went, he was running up and down the corridor with a guitar at one point, when you were doing a very serious interview as you said. And look, all human life is here genuinely. It's one of the reasons we like working in this building. But it just wasn't what I expected to see. Can I just say topless men, I mean, look, let's be honest, in the right setting, they look absolutely incredible. I have to say just a very, very hot sticky

afternoon in an office building. Absolutely known. An absolute known for us. But also... And also can I just say, it was the fact that he was topless but for braces. Yes I was going to ask about the braces. Very bad. Were the braces covering his nipples? Where were they? There was a spirited attempt to cover his nipples by the braces. Yeah. Right. I mean we've never really answered the question why do men have nipples? But incredibly they do. I'd never thought of that before. Let me just ponder that. Hang on. I have a moment's contemplation. We do have a guest, thank God you'll be thinking, and it's Molly Jong Fast. And actually this is a really interesting book. She's written a memoir about, well being a daughter

essentially is the subject of the memoir, it's called How to Lose Your Mother. You'll recognise at least part of her surname, that's because her mum is Erika Jong, author of Fear of Flying, so she is our guest a little bit later, well in a moment or two I would imagine. Just going back to topless men, so over the last couple of days in London, because it has been so hot, I've seen so many men without their shirts on. Is this a trend? Is this a new thing? Have I just not been noticing them before? And it is just a little bit unfair. We wouldn't be able to, nor should we, take our tops off in very, very hot weather. For obvious reasons, I get that our sexual parts are different.

Well, they've just been sexualised, you see. I mean, I've done Woman's Hour, I'm here to tell you. There's nothing particularly sexual about breasts. That's true, but we understand why we have nipples at least. So we're slightly more advanced on the nipple altar. Yes. But there's something, I always want a man in a work setting to have a top on. I just don't think it's right to wander around an office without a shirt on at all.

And I know what you mean about the male form, if it's looking good then it looks good. But I still don't really want to see it actually Jane. No, not at work and not on public transport. No, no I don't. And if you look across the football matches, all of that type of stuff, there's just men taking their tops off everywhere, aren't there? Well, Newcastle fans are quite notorious for travelling the length and breadth of the country in all weathers not wearing a shirt. What is that about? I think I'm just jealous actually, I quite like to take my top off sometimes. Well, you showed me your knees yesterday, so I live in hope.

Catherine in Northumberland. I actually live in West London. Thank you. Fie you mentioned there was something special about having your kids facing opposite each other in car seats. I get what you mean. I think it's like they're in a little rowing boat together. You've nailed it Catherine. That's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is and thank you for that tiny little life detail. Is it? Was? Is that what you were trying to? It is. It's because they can kind of see each other. There's just there was just something so lovely about it. It just felt like we were a really proper triptych.

What was that noise? Triptych. Right. Now listen, the whole jingle thing. wait till we get to Christmas by the way, wow will we treat you then. Some people don't like the jingles, some people they don't want to hear them at all and so we feel a bit defensive because Hilary Burt has made us I think some lovely jingles. I love the jingles. And we're so grateful to her for the effort she's made. So what she's done now and we are disappearing right up our podcasting fundament here, is that she's made a jingle that's a warning about jingles. Well this is because somebody asked for it, didn't they?

Yeah. One of our listeners said, could you do a jingle to warn us the jingle's coming? Well Hillary says she's done one. Shout out to Sammy and Jack, our golden retrievers, who are waiting patiently for their evening walk while I did this. Well you see, other people have had to put themselves out for this, so I'm sorry Sammy and Jack and I hope you got your walk in the end. Right, let's bring it in. Okay, I think that does the business. Yeah, so that's just there and actually we're not going to read a long-time listener first-time emailer email because I think everybody's just there and actually we're not going to read a long time listener, first time emailer email

because I think everybody's just a little bit fractious because of the mixed weather. And we'll do it maybe tomorrow, okay? And we'll also play the warning. Is that clear? Yeah, I think we've been kind to Eve as well. She may well not be on her finest finger first on the fader form. I absolutely love her for the fact that earlier on she really groped for her Google because she was very keen to search for something because she knew that we'd asked her to search for something but then she had to come back to us and ask what it was we wanted to actually

find out about. Oh, give her a break. She's had a big weekend. No, she's a delight. James says, it's good to hear that you're enjoying the weather in London. We weren't. I listen to Times Radio more here than in England. He is joining us from Sunny Calabria.

Oh, now he's done us a little video, hasn't he? Well, he has. But I'm not sure how we bring it to everybody else's attention. Well it's very lovely, I did watch it this morning. Oh did you? Okay and? And it's taken from the rooftop of his apartamenti in Calabria and you can see the sea on one side and the mountains on the other and just some very nice roof tiles in between, it looks gorgeous. Can I just say tiles are something that continental Europe does so much better.

So much better, those beautiful terracotta ones. Yeah, just every one of the gorgeous ones you see in Portugal. Anyway, he says, here we take the sharp light and the heat for granted. Now, this is controversial. Too much blue sky can be depressing. I don't know about that. Well, we yearn for it, don't we? Yeah, we do.

However, nearby Messina in Sicily recorded one of the hottest temperatures in European history a few years ago. It was 50 degrees Celsius. I don't know how you survived that, actually. I have no idea. And I have been thinking about people, we're going to talk about caring and how challenging it can be in a moment or two in the company of Molly Jongfast, but real thoughts and prayers to anybody looking after an older person right

now, certainly in the stifling heat in big cities and young babies as well. They find it really hard to adjust to peculiar temperatures. I know and actually I did notice over the last couple of days out and about that quite a lot of buggies, they have that built-in kind of sheepskin layer in the buggy or you know some kind of thermal aspect going on just in pushchairs and stuff like that and you just think oh in this heat you know we haven't there are lots of things that we haven't really thought through can I just say on a with a slightly kind of pompous head on, the huge rise in temperatures, it surely should also make us understand better the reasons for an awful lot of migration.

If you found yourself just after one hot weekend thinking, oh, I wonder what house prices are like in Harrogate because it'll be breezier up there. Of course, there are just millions of people who simply cannot live in the places that they have always lived in, because it is over 50 degrees and the water's dried up and all of that type of stuff. So it's all, it's all there. It is. It's all there are repercussions. Just trying to make up for my premature. I thought it was good. Don't worry. You've got very intellectual there and it was appreciated. James says yours is a great show and I appreciate it for its pace and added emotional intelligence. You're

keeping me company while I finish my PhD. Well James we're very very we're humbled by that and good luck with it. Do let us know what your PhD is in because we like to collect PhD titles. Now to our big guest this afternoon it's the political analyst, podcaster, author and journalist Molly Jongfast. Her memoir How to Lose Your Mother, a daughter's memoir, has been really getting people talking. Her mother is Erika Jong, author of the famous feminist classic Fear of Flying. Now that seminal work came out 50 years ago and it made Erika Jong incredibly famous but inevitably that had repercussions for Erika and for Molly her child. Molly good afternoon to you. Thank you for having me. A great great

pleasure. Can you tell us a little bit about your mother and indeed her celebrity status? Was she already famous when you were born? Yeah, she had gotten famous in 1973 for the book Fear of Flying, and I was, had been in the, she had been that way for a while, but this book is really, you know, the reason why so many people, and it's been out for a little bit longer in the States than it has in the UK, the reason why people connect with this book is not because it's about my mom and her fame, though I think it's fun to read about that stuff. It's really because it's about taking care of older parents.

And this is not a mommy dearest kind of book at all. In fact, a lot of people say it's like a love letter to her. It's more of a book about what it's like when you're in this sandwich generation, when you have a parent who needs you and kids who need you and just not enough help to do all the stuff you're needed to do. You're absolutely right. This is why it struck a chord with so many people. Fame is sort of irrelevant, although as you've already said, it's very much part of your

narrative. You were not just dealing with your own family and your mum, but your husband became ill as well around the time that your mother got dementia, is that correct? Yeah, yeah. And so basically what happened was everything kind of fell apart all at the same time. It was like all of my worst fears came true within about a month. I am a writer, and writing is how I process the world. I write these political commentary for Manny Fair. I started writing about it, and it was hard because I was married to someone who was a normal person who didn't particularly want to be written about. No one does, with very few exceptions.

But I wrote this story about what it was like when he got sick. And in America, about a third of Americans will get cancer. So this is not some unusual situation that I found myself in with a spouse with cancer and a parent with dementia. And three children of your own, we should say. Can we just talk a little bit about Erika Jong, because there are some brilliant lines in this book, Molly.

You are a great writer, and you describe her as a feminist icon, except she was really not that feminist and really not that iconic. Just expand on that a little bit. Molly Waddington So this was, and again, I mean this in a very, I don't want, I mean, it sounds critical and it is critical, but it's also, you know, these, it is the fundamental problem of second wave feminism, which is here are these women born in 1942. My mother was born in 1942.

So this is like the height of leave it to beaver, women who are just, you know, largely domestic workers, right? They do childcare, they cook, they clean, and that's it. And they don't work. And so that was the world my mother was born into. Fast forward, 1964, the pill becomes legal. Fast forward, 1973, Roe v. Wade. I mean, she born into an America that did not exist when she was

in her 20s and 30s. And so it was a very tough situation for these women. And my mother was a great example of this. A woman in the second wave of feminism who really had, you know, that book sold 27 million copies, which is insane. It is. And I wonder actually, Fear of flying, could you, without using the phrase, which of course is most widely associated with it. Yes, I won't. Don't worry. I come from television.

Yes. You know the rules. So it's the zip plus and people can fill in the rest. Yes, expletive. This really did change lives. And loosely speaking, it's about a woman, a 29-year-old woman who goes to a conference in Vienna with her psychiatrist husband, and then a voyage of sexual discovery ensues. Is that reasonable? Yes.

And look, this is absolutely a, you know, that was what catapulted her into a kind of 27 million copies fame. And, you know, the idea was that she was calling for sexual liberation. Now, I think maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. You know, it was a novel written in 1973 when she dropped out of grad school. And I think that she was absolutely not prepared for the legacy she was then given. And it was absolutely a very tough experience for her. And you see when you look through the footage of her, I mean, it's funny because in this book I talk about how she was not an incredible mother, but also I have so much compassion for the world she was thrown

into because it was so much sexism. And when you see these videos, like for example, I was on a network show promoting this book and they cut out a video of a male interviewer and you couldn't see the question though, a friend of mine who wrote the Erika Chang movie was telling me that actually the question was super sexist. But her defense of the answer was just so, it was just broke my heart because here she is this woman who's, you know, did almost a PhD at Columbia, is a serious writer, is a serious intellectual, and she's having to defend herself from being called

the Mayflower madam. Yeah, I mean it was extraordinary. Her treatment, I don't doubt you for one second, was probably by our standards incredibly cruel and outrageously sexist. Your mum now has dementia. She can never read what you have said about her. And people, I think think will find that uncomfortable. Although, we need to be clear, she wrote a lot about you, didn't she? Yeah, yeah. And also she wrote a lot about me, I wrote a lot about her. There was never, it was always, you can always write about me. That was the one thing she ever said. I mean, there were two things that she really truly believed. You know, one was that it was my job to take care of her literary legacy,

and two was that I could write anything I wanted about her. This is not like a relationship like normal people. We're writers, everything is copy. And in fact, even though she has dementia, the New York Times wanted to talk to her, and I let them because I knew it would be fun for her. And I didn't really, I knew, first of all, I knew she would probably say that she was delighted because that's what she's always said to me.

But I thought even if she doesn't, it'll be fun for her. We have, you know, my mom and I, even though she's not in there so much anymore, we adore each other and we, you know, this is, I am the product that she exactly wanted. It's funny because if you read some of her earlier writing, you see that in fact, she'd say, I wished for a daughter who spoke her mind and was fierce and was brave. I have become that daughter, absolutely. I have a daughter and I hope that she does exactly the same thing. And if she, and by the way, if I have dementia and I'm in a nursing home smoking, which I will, if I am, I will be smoking cigarettes.

And even though I'm sober 27 years, if I get dementia, I'm definitely drinking. I hope she writes about me and I hope it hits the bestseller list. Marie, can I just ask you if that expectation from your mum has ever felt like a little bit of a burden though? You know, she wrote about me my whole life and I am, you know, I think in this book I talk about it's a very, you know, it's a very complicated way to grow up. It worked out for me but I think it wouldn't work out for a lot of people. Well just so people are put in the picture a little bit, you do describe in the book that you were brought up largely by a nanny and you would get glimpses of so-called normal family life

through the sitcoms that you watched with your nanny. Your mum was out and about all over town, just being, she was being Erica Jong, wasn't she? Yeah. I mean, we went on trips and we had some time together. And you know, I have to say, I mean, we would go on these vacations in the summer or she would go away and I would come with her. And you know, a lot of times the other parents didn't, you know, the kids were just sort of wandering around by themselves. I mean, the 1970s were not, 1970s, 1980s, they did not parent the way we parent now. You know, they were just completely, you know, everyone was smoking, there were no car seats. It was just a very different culture. So, I mean, really, the central question in the book is, how do you care for someone who didn't care for you by 2025 standards, as you've

just pointed out? I mean, are you any closer to answering that question? Actually, you know, it's weird because I really bristle at the idea of writing as therapy, and I think therapy is therapy and writing is writing. But that said, there's something incredible that happened with this book. You know. I went all around America and I would go to these readings and I'd get a couple hundred people and we'd start talking about our parents. And we'd start talking about how hard it is to take care of them and how hard it is to show up for them and how we're mad at them for this or that. And it has been truly transformative to me. You know,

I feel like I put something out into the universe, which people relate to, they get their own, you know, they have their own, you know, they help, it helps them work through their own stuff with their parents, which is like the dream of every writer. And so for me, actually, weirdly, it's been kind of transformative. It's one of these things, my nanny Margaret was from a totally different culture than the world that I grew up in. And she would say to me, she had wrinkles, right? And we all have Botox. This was before Botox, but she would have wrinkles.

And I would say to her, like everyone I know has facelifts and she would say, you know, every wrinkle I have, I've earned. And, you know, I'll probably still get a facelift. But the point of this is, um, I definitely feel like that, that sort of suffering that I may have felt is to good purpose. And that is, feels really like a big deal. Well, I really do think people, we've all got parents. And whenever I get together with people of my own age, we do talk not quite exclusively about our parents, but we certainly make sure they are referenced

in very, very many conversations. Just very briefly, you are also a political analyst. You work for MSNBC. I imagine your life's pretty lively at the moment. I mean, it's, look, they're passing this bill. It is gone back to, so basically, Trump has one piece of legislation. It's called the BBB.

He named it the big, beautiful bill. Absolutely unprecedented to name a piece of legislation that, but a lot is unprecedented here. It cuts Medicaid, it cuts supplemental nutrition, which is SNAP. So it cuts food for poor people and medical coverage for poor people. It will close rural hospitals and rural nursing homes. And the money that it goes to ICE, which is this private, which is a sort of police force focused on immigration and whatever else. And it will also add to your national debt as well, won't it? About somewhere between three and four trillion dollars. I mean, it is a uniquely bad piece

of legislation that has something for everyone to dislike, except maybe Lisa Murkowski from Alaska who got a ton of carve-outs for fishermen and whalers. Right. Well, a bit of good news for the people of Alaska, or some of them. Yes. Very interesting to talk to you. Thank you, Molly. That's Molly Jongfast works for MSNBC in the States and is the author of that really, really interesting memoir about care. It's called How to Lose Your Mother, a Daughter's Memoir. Molly is the daughter of the writer, Erica Jong. I'd also be really interested to hear from people who have read Fear of Flying and can

let us know what they what they think of it because it's now 50 years old and I don't know how well it's aged in terms of its right to claim its feminist classic badge, if you like. It might be worth a bit of a revisit. Could be, maybe, yeah, further down the tracks. On the books tip, can we just say thank you to everyone who's been in touch about our book club book, which is Leonard and Hungry Paul by Ronan Hessian. I've started it, I'm about 60 or 70 pages into it, I am loving it, I'm loving every sentence of it. It's made me chuckle along and I hope that everybody else is enjoying it too, even if you're not. We'd like your thoughts. I think it's unlikely we're

going to get book club in before Jane goes on holiday because that's actually from tomorrow. So, I'll put that out there. I think this is going to be in your way for two weeks. So let's put the Book Club deadline into the first week in August and we'll reconvene then and discuss it. Okay. Yeah, I think that's agreed. But our podcasts carry on. It'll be me and the Malks, Jamal to her friends, for the next couple of weeks as you take your Ken Follett to a sunlander and enjoy Ken.

Thank you also for all of your playlist suggestions. We're building this up very nicely indeed and I'm being introduced to all kinds of new artists and that is fabulous too. You just pop your favourite track or the track you want to go on the playlist on the end of an email or you can send a separate one, we don't mind, and we'll build it up. And I think the idea is on Spotify the more people play it the easier it is to find. So at the moment it's not very easy to find actually. Is that how it works? Okay. I think so. Right. Well we can check up on that can't we?

Yeah, so we'll keep you actually. Is that how it works? I think so. Right. Well we can check up on that can't we? So we'll keep you posted. Do you know that either? No, she doesn't know much at the moment. God, I don't know how we get through the modern world, Jane. I really don't. Let's face it, sometimes it blocks us, doesn't it? Anyway, janeofeattimes.radio.

That is our email address. Thank you for listening. Bye. Bye. Bye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.