Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Slightly slutty open curtains?

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

It’s just Fi and her one remaining Greggs share today, with a member of production on standby to act as a bit of a sounding board. Fi covers aquafaba, slutty curtains, and early-years parenting. Plus, Eline van der Velden, the founder and CEO of London-based AI production company Particle6, and the creator of AI actress Tilly Norwood, discusses the future of AI and tech. You can listen to our 'I've got the house to myself' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2MkG0A4kkX74TJuVKUPAuJIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I am humming the relatively obscure Abba track. So on my shuffle, hello people, on my shuffle this morning on the way to work, up came if it wasn't for the nights, which is a song by Abba that I just haven't heard for about 30 years. And I think it's one of their all-time greats, but it never really makes it on to the other people's all-time abigrates. And it was just one of those tiny little things that may be incredibly happy. Now, Peoples, it is another solo podcast

because Jane is still up in Crosby and in the nature of our podcast, we're just going to be totally honest about this. Jane has gone back to Crosby to be with her family because her mum is still very poorly. So I'm going to do the podcast on my own with help from Eve, emphasis on help from Eve. Hello, Eve.

Hi, V. Thank you. Yes, on Q. Help me, Eve. I'm here. For today and tomorrow. And then we're not entirely sure what's going to happen.

So bear with us if that's all right. It's one of those slightly kind of fluid situations. But we will try and pop something in the podcast feed whenever we can. Our guests remain. So we've got an absolute belter today. And actually, I would love to hear from people what they think about this. I've interviewed the creator of the AI actress Tilly Norwood. And if you've got a moment, if you just type Tilly Norwood into any search engine, up come these images of this really beautiful,

incredibly pretty young woman, slightly freckled face, long hair, you know, that's not frizzy at the ends or, you know, moves in the wind, all that kind of stuff. She's got hazel eyes and a very symmetrical face. And she's a complete creation. And Ellen Van der Vanderval. who is the creator of Tilly Norwood believes that our future viewing will be split between films with real actresses and actors in and films that are just entirely full of Tilly Norwoods

and she's kind of got there first which is an amazing thing to do but there are so many things that need talking about as we face that extraordinary frontier so if you can stay with us until the end of the podcast and listen to that interview and send us some thoughts I'd be really delighted to hear them

I don't think it's all bad I just think we're in this very odd place at the moment where we can't work out what we should be allowed to feel and I think as with everything I mean there's this famous daily mail headline isn't there from I think 2002 which is something along the lines of

internet set to fail because people are not using it enough and didn't turn out to be true so we don't quite know what's going to happen shall we do the important parish notice eve which is just to all of the people who've written in about the cancellation of our december the seventh upcoming sunday live show at the prince edward playhouse place where they put on musical experiences so we're not going to be able to do that but thank you for all of the people who have written in in an understanding way a couple of name checks eve thank you so much to karen who says thanks for all that you do so brilliantly and for being there for us and we are there for each other and for you too. That's very nice. Thank you, Karen. And thank you to Sabine, who says, what a shame.

Hopefully I'll be able to book another trip when you reschedule Merry Christmas. So, yeah, we appreciate your understanding. And it is just one of those things. And I think you would all completely agree that sometimes the show simply mustn't go on. There are just way more important things to do in life. So I know that some of you won't be able to get a full refund on hotels and train tickets and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, all we can say is we're sorry

and we didn't mean for this to happen and we will try and do a rescheduled show sometime maybe spring 20, 26. Can I also say that Hetty, your Advent calendar, it really continues to delight. We're going to jingle all the way to Christmas. We're going to have a real fight Eve, aren't we? Because actually, we knock off the podcast

on about the 18th or 19th of December. So who's going to be able to take this home? I'm going to send it to Jane. That would be good, wouldn't it? Yeah, she can finish it off. Yeah, they're such thoughtful, thoughtful presents. What was yesterday's, it was the Greg's card, wasn't it? Yeah, for a split second, I thought, yeah, that's for me.

And then, of course, Hetty's a far kinder. Oh, would you like me to get your sausage roll for lunch? I can't. I just think Greg's, it's just so clever, isn't it? because you have the open shop front and there is nothing quite like the smell of warming pastry. It's just hot butter is just to die for it. Especially in winter, it looks warm in there too.

You could just nip in and just warm up, just stood in there. Do you know why, because you're a vegetarian, aren't you? I am, yeah. Why are the vegetarian and vegan rolls never as well roasted as the meat ones? They never are. I can't really answer that because I don't have much of reference point because I haven't eaten the meat ones. Oh, no, but just the way they look.

There would be a different, I suppose it wouldn't be an all butter pastry, it would be an oil pastry. Something in there has gone a bit askew, but I do agree. They do look a bit sad. They do, yeah. Because maybe they've got the egg wash on top of the meat sausage rolls, but you can use your alpha-rameo stuff, can't you, in the vegetarian world? You know, the stuff that's made from chickpea juice.

Oh, yeah. A far-a-fifif. Yeah, a fathaway. A fafo-a-fah-fay. Well, I'm a bit selfish as well because I'm just vegetarian. I'd be fine with the eggwash. Yeah, you would mean. I'd kind of say bring it on.

Yeah. You need a halfway house. That's not really fair on the vegans. Anyway, somebody who's got an in-depth knowledge of making pastry will be able to sort us out on that. I'm trying to sell my one remaining Greg's share at the moment. Unfortunately, the platform won't sell it. Just give it to someone for Christmas.

It's going to cost me more to sell it. It will, well, I'll make in it. So it's not, it's not been the greatest of investments. And I'm not being rude about Greg's. It's just, I bought it at the top, and it literally just, it absolutely tanked about a week after I bought some shares. Escape to the Lou comes in from Melanie in Chichester. Now, I love this one, catching up on a recent episode of Escape to the Country.

I wondered if anyone in the hive over the age of 60 is happy to only have a downstairs toy access via a semi-ladder staircase and a garden that you require crampons to get up. When people pass on their wish list, why don't the producers actually listen to what they say and don't get me started on visible belongings stuffed under beds, creased duvet covers and filthy sauce pans hanging up in so-called designer kitchens. Good God, if I was a contestant, I would be so disappointed. Melanie, I am with you on that. Sometimes you just think you can't have gone round somebody's house as

the producer without saying maybe you just want to tidy this one up a bit and there have been a couple of escape to the countries that I have grazed across obviously when I'm not being incredibly intellectual just watching things on BBC 4 where they haven't even really properly drawn the curtains when they go round the houses

it's just like that's just so slovenly it's a bit it's a bit slutty as Godfrey Bloom a UKIP representative once said and then he stopped being a representative of some time afterwards.

So yes, I don't really understand that either. I don't know whether anybody else has caught up with winning a B&B. Is it just called Win a B&B? It is on Channel 4 at the moment in their 5 o'clock slot. And sometimes we are watching it because I arrive home from work about the same time that my teenager arrives back from sixth form and we need a little bit of a kind of half an hour switch off.

Am I giving too much? any caveats as to why I'm watching day-type TV. Just lean into it. Just admit it. We are racing home in order to watch Win a B&B, which is this amazing thing on Channel 4, where all of these couples are competing to win a really, really beautiful bed and breakfast in the Doordaun.

And you have no idea how incredibly entertaining it is. What do they have to do to win it? To watch someone heat a croissant at 8 o'clock in the morning. They have to go through tasks, but they're not. So they all get sent to different B&Bs, and they have to be the host. So they walk into these beautiful do-doin B&Bs, swimming pools and a pizioniere and all kinds of stuff going on. And then the guests start arriving,

and they have to run the B&B for a couple of days as hosts, and they are judged by a woman from the AA, a woman from Alistair Sourday, and two fantastic gentlemen who run an award-winning bed and breakfast in Andalusia. Andrew and Brennan, I think they're called. And they are addictive viewing.

Their entire wardrobe is linen. They've got matching shoes, a little bit of a mangle on display. But it's very entertaining. It's very, very entertaining watching them. It's rather hypnotic as to whether or not they've remembered to put a bin in the shower room and dusted on top of the rainhead shower we're thoroughly enjoying it.

But what a prize, Eve. I like that it's capturing the attention across generations. Oh, gosh, yes. No, we're both very interested. It does so quite good. And also because it's that very clever kind of reality competition thing where so many different people move across your screen who you as a viewer might have opinions about.

I see. Do you see what I mean? I see. Yes. They're being judged in a professional context. And outside of the professional context. Exactly. that very well put.

From labour to sleep training. Now this one comes in from Lindsay, a very long time listener as well. I can't recall how I stumbled across your podcast when I was in my late 20s, but I genuinely don't know how I'd live without it. Well, we all

feel the same way actually about it too Lindsay, so you're not alone there. My daughter was born last August and without going into details, the hospital stay and labour was nothing short of horrific and I spent many hours listening to you both in a vague attempt to calm me down. My daughter is now 15 months.

A lovely little poppet brings us so much joy that she doesn't nap and won't sleep in her cot. In brackets, caps lock, nightmare. Anyway, tonight is the first night I'm attempting to put her in a cot and to say I'm nervous is an understatement. The more I get thinking about being a mother, the more I truly realise we weren't designed

to be in these isolated homes with just a couple winging it every day without the support of extended family close by. My dad grew up in a home with his mom, dad, aunties, cousins and grandparents, and often I find myself thinking how helpful it would be, not trying to run a house, nurture a tiny human and hold down a full-time job. Truly, I'm not sure how we're expected to do it. I hope this isn't too rambling, and on the off chance you do read it out, if you have any words of encouragement for early motherhood, please share. Well, Lindsay, I don't think anybody listening would disagree with a single word that you said. the way that we have developed as a society it seems to really be at the cost of early years parenting

and there's so much pressure now on all of us and I think especially mums to be people of economic value to society and there is a massive massive value and an economic price tag attached to actually being able to maybe stay at home a bit longer be supported instead. staying home a little bit longer, not feel that you have to rush back to the world because, and I really hear you on the going back to work, especially if you're working full time. I think if you are sleep deprived, that is incredibly difficult. And as you well know, at 15 months, you've got this beautiful, beautiful creature who is just a bit beyond your control.

You can't make a baby decide to sleep through the night in order for you to be able to go to work refreshed in the morning. So I completely agree with you about that. In terms of advice and encouragement, that phase doesn't last forever. I really hope that you can lean in to your partner, and I hope that your partner. I don't know whether it's a man or a woman who cares. I hope that they're just being helpful too. I think maybe you're still breastfeeding.

I don't know about that, but if you are, maybe consider packing it in so that your partner. can do a bottle through the night. And also, I just found it incredibly helpful when I was in exactly that kind of phase myself to not beat myself up about constantly being frazzled and constantly moaning. And actually the place where you can moan the most easily is with other mums

and there just is something really helpful about sharing that pain with other people. So I hope that you can find a group or be part of a group and it's not enough to say that it doesn't last forever because I think when you're in the throes of it you just can't see the clearer horizon at all but it will pass

and those first couple of weeks when your daughter sleeps through the night you will feel like a completely an utterly new human being the only other thing that I would say is if you can at the weekends just really hand over some of the responsibility to your partner

or do a little bit of kind of baby sharing and by that i mean you know i used to go swimming at the lido with a mum friend of mine and we would take it in turns to look after each other's babies and the other one of us could then go and have a really decent swim and go and sit literally completely the other side of the lido on their own and have a cup of coffee and read the newspaper and sometimes it was that hour hour and a half that absolutely saved my bacon just to have that to know that i could look forward to was a very very good thing indeed i hope some of that has helped other people in the hive will have far more helpful suggestions oh i tell you what actually eve at a friend's book launch

the other day that makes me sound very grand i move i move in entirely literary circles i don't at all but maria burgess who i used to work with she was the producer of The Listening Project. She's written a really amazing novel based on her mum's life story, which is of separation during World Board 2. It's called Finding Ida. Get your hands on it if you can. Anyway, she had a

lovely book launch, and I was talking to Joe, a friend of hers, who's a big, big podcast, a listener a very hello to you. And she is part of the blue tits, cold water swimming group. And well done for not laughing, because Jane always snorts I've become a bit immune to it now, because I think I've heard you

mentioned them a couple of times. And they are called blue tits because your tits go blue. It is a good name. It is, isn't it? Anyway, she's part of the blue tits, and they swim on one of the beaches in Dorset, and she said that they have just started exactly that kind of baby helping out service to young mums who want to go swimming as well. So they will bring their little babies down, and all of these women of a certain age,

and she is of a certain age, they do a kind of. you know, granny thing with the babies so that the mums can go for a swim. Isn't that lovely? What an amazing thing. Yeah, really, really lovely. What an amazing thing. And also introduces the babies to bring around water which can't hurt either. It can't hurt

at all. It can't hurt at all. And there's such a comfort in people who, you know, that kind of grandparent generation male or female, they have a firm grip of the child. And there's something really lovely about going, oh, that'll be fine. They'll be fine. So I thought, what a love thing to do so maybe you would be able to find something like that in your area lindsay i do very much

hope so and mostly i just sent you loads and loads of love i had a non-napper as well so one of mine decided to cut out their nap when they were only about god probably about five six months old just ridiculous absolutely ridiculous i lost most of my frontal lobe and as many of you can tell it's not growing back Right, should we head into the guest? I'm going to save the extra big hula hoop for tomorrow. Yeah, that's all right. Wow.

I know. All the fun is here. Let's bring in the guest. Now, in just a few years' time, we may well all be settling down of an evening to watch the latest rom-com or action movie, starring characters we've come to know and love, but who never appear in the gossip columns or have babies or get divorced or fall out of clubs late at night,

or make a fortune advertising, perfumes at this time of year, or cars or pants. Because they will be completely AI generated. The tech is here and the stars are being born. If you type Tilly Norwood into a search engine, you will see images of a very pretty, petite, freckled brunette girl who's an aspiring actress and describes herself as the world's first AI star. And Tilly is entirely AI. She's ruffled a few feathers in Hollywood. Emily Blunt described her as really, really scary. Whoopi Goldberg is amongst many people

to publicly criticise her existence. And her creator is Aline Valdi. She is the founder of Particle 6. She's made several shows for the BBC as a producer, is working with all of the main broadcasters now and is a trained actress herself. I'm from a small

island in the Caribbean called Curisal and I came to the UK when I was 14 to do musical theatre, a wonderful performing art school called Trink Park. And I was really proud to come to, you know, the global creative powerhouse in Britain to be trained up in this creative field. And I then went on to study physics at Imperial College. And I created characters all throughout my 20s.

I was an actor. I was a director. I was a writer. I did all the things. And I also created a character called Miss Holland, which was like a female sort of buffoonish character that won best online comedy at the Web, Lovey Awards and then got picked up by the BBC. So I've been always creating characters. and it was only three years ago when chat GBT came out and I think the physicist inside me was ignited with joy

that I could merge my two loves of the creative and the tech together and convert my production company which is called Particle 6 into an AI production studio really. So one of the creations to come out of your production studio is the AI actress Tilly Norwood. So for people who haven't come across her, how would you describe her? What's her CV?

Well, her CV is non-existent still. She came, I thought of her in February. I could see all the AI influencers popping up. Lil Michaela had been signed by CA a few years back. And I was really fascinated by this AI world that was emerging. I've always, also with Britishness in mind, sort of, you know, British talent has always been huge in our entertainment industry. And I thought, well, this whole new AI genre has got.

going to need British talent too. We're going to have to be on the forefront of this AI creative renaissance. And I thought, let's make an AI actress so she can play parts because we're creating all this content in AI genre, which is fully AI. We need an actor that's going to do all these jobs for us. So I thought, but okay, well, it's a long process. How do we create this actress? What's she going to be called? You know, we don't want to infringe on anyone's likeness or any, you know, person. So we need to create a full original person here. that was really important to us we're a very ethical production company you know we don't want to be infringing on anyone's likeness or copyright so in our prompts we are very specific about that so we started with the name we were like okay she needs a name that's resonance that feels british that people around the world would easily remember but also that nobody else has and so tally norwood according to our research was a name one of i had to choose you know from many but was a name that nobody had and i know ryan reynolds really tried to find a Tilly Norwood

and he couldn't. He found a Natalie Norwood but not Tilly Norwood. So it's like an onion, you know, you peel off the layers as you go. So the name and then it was her look, right? Her likeness and we wanted that sort of English rose look, the type that would get cast in a drama, but

you know, not too beautiful, a bit girl next door, resonant around the world that also represented the melting pot that we are in Britain. So there's so much thought that went into it and I think we did around 2,000 iterations of her before I was like, yes, that's who I want. So, and now we're going into the whole brain and her personality and we're creating who she is. And it gets more and more exciting as we get deeper into the process.

What is she going to be used for? Where am I going to see her? When you talk about her being in movies, surely she will only be in movies that are entirely AI generated. She's not going to to play alongside Paul Maskell in something, is she? So she could, but we've said no to all those opportunities that have come our way because we don't feel that's right. We don't want her to be taking the place of real actors. I love real actors. I want to keep watching real actors, you know, in drama and in beautiful stories.

That's really key to me. Also, as our business, Particle 6, we enhance TV and film with AI and to actually get more projects to be green-lit and go into production, thus creating more jobs. And, you know, we do some of the complex. scenes with VFX or with establishing shots or animals with AI. This is exactly as you're saying, all in the AI space, really about a whole new genre. It's, you know, just like animation, but with more realistic looks.

And you can tell beautiful stories in this new art form. And just because there's a new art form doesn't mean the old one becomes obsolete. I can hear in all of your answers so far, Eileen, that you might already feel a bit on the back foot with the criticism that has come your way about. creating an AI actress. So just tell me a little bit about that before, you know, before I ask you the questions that I think you've been asked before. Because people at the moment are fearful of what is being created, aren't they?

Yeah. And I think our fear, I don't think it's misplaced, actually. We are going to go through a transition period. So part of this is also me future-proofing my business. There's going to be a displacement of job. just like there has been in many previous moment in time where we've changed the way that we do work. But it doesn't mean that it completely becomes obsolete

the traditional stuff either, right? It's a transition, we need to upskill a lot of people. We are hiring. This is a huge moment of growth and job creation that actually people are not seeing. And there's the big miscommunication and the big misinformation. They think AI, just because it uses AI, there's going to be job losses.

We're seeing the opposite, right? now. We're seeing huge amount of job creation. So maybe we've got it wrong to a certain extent. Maybe it's just going to be a transition period and actually the net effect is going to be more productivity, more jobs. So many people in the creative industries though have already said we don't want this to be happening so fast. We do think we're going to lose our jobs because of course if you're a lighting cameraman at the moment and you haven't been trained in AI, the notion that a Tilly Norwood franchise movie might take off that would never need your skills

is terrifying to you. So I hear you when you say that the AI industry creates jobs but at the moment it takes them in the creative industries. Not only, right? So we are hiring AI DOPs that work with the AI to be a director of photography. So jobs will change. I really, really strongly believe that

because I'm seeing this and we've been in this for three years now. look some some jobs will change I'm not going to deny that whatsoever but I think if people upskill they're less likely to be at the threat of this and there are huge opportunities for people who are AI literate

and at the same time some of these traditional jobs will remain you know you're going to keep doing this in a studio I doubt it I really do think so I really do think there is place for this but alongside the traditional stuff I really think people still want real people. It's boring to only have AI.

Tilly Norwood is an extremely attractive young woman. So for the purposes of radio, we've got to describe her. She's got very long dark hair. She's got kind of dark hazel eyes. She's got a very symmetrical beauty about her. And I wonder as a woman and a woman who's worked in the acting profession, why you went for that kind of prettiness? because in a way she's enforcing what for so, I mean, 99.9% of the population is an unachievable goal. Would you agree?

Yeah. So, I mean, we created her together with the AI to be as most resonant around the world and to really be a global superstar. I didn't think she would get to this so fast. So clearly the AI did something right there in creating the way that she looks, you know, and including my knowledge of the industry, that there's some things we can't deny. and that's why she was our first creation and she has a certain beauty about her but also we didn't want to be too beautiful right so there's a fine line there that you have to walk you know she's got that girl next door vibe

and she's got imperfections in their skin we had images before that were really airbrushed and it was too beautiful so we don't want that either now people... Did you think about making her difference you know maybe making her a bit plumber maybe making her hair uncontrollable

Yeah, her hair is uncontrollable with some shots and her weight fluctuates from shot to shot but we make sure that what we put out there is a healthy weight and we do think about all these things because I'm very aware as I was a young girl once too and how affected you can be by these images but what's most important is we make it really clear that she's AI and in a way that makes it better

because you know that it's not a real person and so you're not trying to emulate to be like her because you know it's not real whilst I think what's way more dangerous is to seeing real people who are pretending to be a certain size which people are doing and they are changing it with AI or they're changing, you know, filters

and changing their shape and all sorts of things and that's not actually real even with the plastic surgery and stuff so I think actually that's more dangerous than just saying looks as an AI actress she's not real. And how do you actually kind of own her? You know, you say that you've created her

and obviously your company has a kind of copyright right over her image. But what does that mean? Does that mean that a producer could phone you up and say, I've written this script, I want Tilly Norwood in it, and you'd just kind of hand over the algorithms to them?

How does it work? It's more complex. I suppose it's about the human work and input into making the character. So we spend about six months making her and loads of iterations and thought that went into her. But then there's also the trademark to protect her name.

and then when it comes to roles I mean it would have to be a full AI film for us to say yes to the job offer so to speak and you know people online are making lots of fan content with her and we actually love it

we think that's great so you can't protect you know the internet's such a cowboyish place anyway you don't want to be dampening people's creativity if they want to create something fun with her I'm all for that can she have a difficult personality

yes So this is where it becomes super creative and really fun is, you know, we have this instruction manual that we're creating for her brain and what her sense of humour is like, how she responds and also she's a rebel. We created her, and this is visible on our Instagram, we created her a few days ago. And we said, oh, could you just jump around and say, woo-hoo?

And then we played some of the iterations. She just wasn't wearing any trousers. Oh, okay. So, you know, we think we're in control of this AI. Why wasn't she wearing any trousers? I mean, because she just didn't feel like it. It really said, you're wearing blue jeans. She just ignored it.

So, you know, the brain, what's fascinating about it, it's this neural network in AI that we don't really understand. It's very similar to the brain. We don't really understand it. But sorry, could I just ask, and this is a terrible thought, but is she doing that? Because actually, what the AI has learned through scraping the internet

is that many, many pretty girls are out there without clothes on. Yes, there is that. So I am always, you know, it's trained on my data as well, right? It's trained on everyone. I'm always saying, look, if you can add something to that training data, please do. Because the more diverse that data is, the better. The more will get interesting things, but the more diverse it becomes as well.

So actually, I feel it as a duty to the human race to be donating material to the training algorithm for diversity in it to increase. I wrote this thing about how I tried to create a woman with hairy legs a few years ago. and I couldn't because there was no training data for it. So, yeah, we do have to change that. We do, we do. So for your future characters that you create at your company, you know, will they reflect more, certainly more diverse female shapes

and maybe age and less, I suppose, classically attractive, would be helpful for that AI scrape, wouldn't it? It would. it also makes a story more interesting. So yes, you know, Tilly was our first one and she did what she needed to do, she got the conversation going, but you know, we want more diverse characters to tell beautiful stories. That's really important. And just to go back to the

control of the AI, when you're creating this brain, it's a little bit like bringing up a child, right? You give them morals and values and direction and then when you unleashed them and let them be autonomous, you just hope for the best. Are you confident though? And do you that we can hope for the best with AI creations like this, because my fear is that there's just so much bad stuff out there and so many images of women, how women don't want to be,

that actually it is too much of a struggle to imagine that the AI world can reflect a better place. It's just going to milk the worst, isn't it? I think that's what you need good production companies to be engaging with it and making interesting content. that's what we're trying to do. Look, it's going to happen. AI is here.

It's here to stay. As much as we can't put it back in the box. So instead, let's move forward. Let's get people upskilled using this tech for good, make it a force for good, using it ethically. Don't reference any copyrighted material in your prompts. Don't reference any specific people's likeness. You know, let's move forward as an industry.

Let's train it well, so it's diverse. And let's use it. And I see it as us standing on the top of the shoulders of humanity. and going forth, moving forward, and using it in a good way. How old is Tilly Norwood at the moment? We say 24. 24, okay. But she can be any age you want her to be.

Is she going to age in real time? What's she like when she hits the menopause? People have asked this question a lot, which I just think it's fascinating. We can age her if we wanted to. It's more of a creative personal choice of us, I suppose. Yeah, I think she should age. I think it'd be terrible if she's 824 forever. We'll have other characters to know.

I know that you've been surprised, Celine, about the backlash that there has been against the creation of Tilly Norwood. And to be honest, I was surprised that you were surprised. Were you genuinely not expecting it? You know, there were so many AI characters out there. There was the Lil MacHale example. We were just following the same playbook as her, and she had not received any backlash.

And there have been K-pop bands, haven't there, created? All sorts. I'm going to get it. Is it Breaking Rust, which is the AI country artist that top the Billboard charts? There is stuff out there. There's loads of things. So, you know, I didn't think this was that original.

I just thought, oh, I'm just jumping on the bandwagon like every. I thought everyone was doing this. I mean, you can, everyone can create an AI character on V-O-3 or Sora, right? It's publicly available. Now, I think the difference is, is Tilly looked very real. And that was quite shocking to people. And it was shocking to me when I first saw it. I was like, oh, my goodness.

Like, this is where the text at. and I'm really proud actually that she was able to spark that conversation and open everybody's eyes up to where the text's at because I worry that most of these people had never seen this before and I'd been playing with these tools for the past year

and so I'm like, hold on you didn't know this was possible that's more worrying than the fact I've put this actress out Yeah, so I completely hear you on that because when I started looking at Tilly on, you know, there's some bits and pieces that you can see of her on Instagram If I grazed across that without knowing who she is and without knowing your story,

I absolutely just would have believed her to be a real young woman, you know, out and about going to a premiere or whatever it is that she's doing. How do we in future ensure that we know when we're watching AI and when we don't? Not everything is going to be watermarked or stamped or whatever. So on Instagram you can put an AI label on it. I think we've been very transparent about the fact

she's an AI actress, which is what's caused all this fuss. I think it's really important to make the distinction. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask you about being an entrepreneur in this country? Yes. Because obviously you've done some extraordinary things with your company. And I bet that an awful lot of venture capitalists have been knocking on your door and stuff like that.

Do you feel happy in the UK? Are you immediately off to Heathrow to take a flight to wherever it might be that offers you better tax breaks, perhaps, less national insurance contributions, that type of stuff? These conversations are happening amongst the entrepreneurs, for sure. I feel very settled in the UK. I'm really proud to be in the UK. Britishness is in my work. I would say I was surprised there was no mention of AI in the budget.

I do think as a country, we have a unique opportunity where the government has actually been, was very AI forward. And that has led me to be very AI forward, which is good. And actually, I think we're ahead of the Americans right now. in this creative AI space. Do you? Yes, very much so. Well, even though they've got the great big kind of...

They've got the big tech companies. The whopper ones over there. Yeah, but many producers in the UK are engaging with this. Many of the big broadcasters, and that isn't happening so much in the US yet. They're all very scared, which I also understand. But it's a creative opportunity for us to keep our place in that creative industry

with these new tools. And I think if we skill everybody up really fast, and we get AI literacy really high, we could really have an important role to play in this new economy. So it's interesting that you note it was an omission in the budget because actually the business secretary, Peter Carl, is incredibly keen to tell voters, tell our listeners that we're right at the forefront of AI.

So what should we have heard that would actually have made a difference, do you think? Gosh, you're asking me a very political question. I'm not looking for anything specific, but just what would help? Yeah, what would help? I think a huge amount of, you know, money towards upskilling. That's really needed right now, skilling people up, especially youngsters. We're hiring, you know, people will worry that because it's AI, we're not hiring young people. That's absolutely not true.

We're training up a lot of young people. We're working with screen skills and other industry bodies to help get those people trained up. So a contribution towards that would be really helpful as a business. Also, budget towards making new AI productions in the creative industries would be also good. There's no budget right now where you can go to get... No fund where you can say, yep, you know, you invest in me and I'm going to repay you with this. And we're going to do a world first feature film, which we're doing. But, you know, if the government were to assist in that, in helping creative producers in the UK,

produce AI content, I think we could really be on to something. How lovely to meet you. Thank you very much indeed for coming into Times Towers today. And dear listener, she's real. She's absolutely real. Aline van der Velden and we would so love to hear your thoughts about that because it just isn't all bad. Aline has done something really remarkable in terms of AI technology in creating Tilly Norwood. And I was very interested in what she said about the fact that actually it has created a lot of jobs. So yes, some jobs. jobs are going to go through AI. And this is what we're constantly being told, isn't it? That actually eventually our productivity will rise because of the introduction of AI. And that's the bit that I simply don't believe at the moment. But I don't work in AI. Aline does work in AI.

So we've definitely got to listen to what she has to say. I think the other thing that deeply, deeply shocked me. And I would like to hear some thoughts about two is this notion that because when Tilly Norwood does her acting she's scraping existing AI the existing AI has told her to take her clothes off I mean just whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa that's not great

is it Jane and Fee at times dot radio is the email address my thanks to Eve for stepping up honest to God I mean there'll be people who hear more of your voice and we'll just think we just want Eve actually there'll be voiceover artists banging down the door

and Jane will be back just as soon as she can be, but do bear with us in the meantime. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this, live and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday 2 till 4 on Times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app

Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler You're going to be able to be.