Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Slipping on lubricant - with Tom Allen

Episode Date: November 24, 2022

The comedian Tom Allen joins Jane and Fi in the studio to talk about how he channelled the loss of his father into his new book "Too Much".Also, how slipping on lubricant in a gay sauna was his first foray into slapstick comedy, his affinity with middle-aged women, and how American toilets are different to ours in the UK.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

okay let's do it come on we can be out by half past five ben needs to go home too he's got a young one we're so family orientated on this show i just like come to work to get away from our families welcome to our fair with jane garvey and fee glover we're at the end of our week jane how do you think this week has gone i think this is the week where we've bedded in do you really do you think it's been a moderate success no oh no i wouldn't go that far either. No, okay. That's still off in the distance. But I feel a little bit more confident now when I take the lift in the morning. I actually know that you can come out of the ladies' toilets and turn left and you're in the canteen. You don't have to walk back to the office and then turn right

and walk all the way around, which I've been doing for six weeks. Well, it's handy because the number of daily steps that I've been doing has been through the roof because I also used to get lost navigating my way. So it's a bad thing for you that you can find your way around. Yeah, it really is a bad thing. I should be so unfit now as opposed to the athletic figure I'm currently cutting. Of course, Christmas does mean mince pies, and we've just had a tasting test with Times food editor Tony Turnbull. And Tony, he's a plucky customer because he turns up every week for the final segment of our live radio show.

Where we are a combination of a little bit acidic and a little bit acerbic, aren't we? We've gone a bit giddy. And quite giddy. Yeah. yeah. And he's very patient. And he writes these very important and interesting articles about food and food trends for The Times. And today he had to just do battle with me, saying, well, how expensive are these award-winning Asda Mint spies?

A fact that he happened not to have at his fingertips. That's the kind of thing that angers a very, very veteran broadcaster like yourself well i like facts also the item was about mince pies and just this is just pure this is public information i'm going back to my my old days um but if you do want to seek out a really good value supermarket mince pie asda are doing the best ones this year according to the times supermarket mince pie, Asda are doing the best ones this year, according to the Times taste testers. And if you're going a little bit more upmarket and you prepare to spend a little bit more,

then Betty's of Harrogate are doing the upmarket best mince pies, so-called. Well, I'm glad we've got that sorted. It's important because I know you're not keen on... No, I don't like a mince pie at all. I don't like a mince pie. I think they get such an easy ride. They're a disgusting pastry. But because they're part of tradition, everybody just lowers their bar to a ridiculous extent, you know, to the level at which basically a great big plonk of off jam

is put inside pastry and baked, and everyone goes, ooh, the mince pie. I just don't really like them. OK. That really did feel quite a passionate attack. I didn't know I had it in. No, I know it's on the mince pie, which is just a little pie that is traditionally associated. Come near me with your mince pies.

God, I thought I was the stroppy one. OK, now we had a great guest on our live show today, which I appreciate lots of people can't hear because they're busy with their lives. But if you are available, we do... That's terrible because then people who do listen during the week are just left thinking, oh, Jane's just said I'm not busy, I have no life.

But we're so short of things to do that we're able to come in and do the programme. So that's, you know, that's a whole point, isn't it? That's the bonus. But maybe you're just listening to the podcast and you're not aware that we are doing a live show and it's on times radio monday to thursday three o'clock till five we're squished um it's a beautiful place to be between mariela frostrup and john penar who wouldn't want that as a place to work well i mean we're delighted that we are in that crevice

and tom allen was our big guest today now we talked to tom before because he had a little book out uh during lockdown didn't he yes that was called no shame which we thoroughly enjoyed so he had high hopes for book number two which is called too much and he didn't disappoint it's a collection of anecdotes about his life but the bonding theme is the influence that his dad had over his life and very sadly his dad died really suddenly in 2021 so it's a book that commemorates his life and his wisdom but obviously told through funny stories and Tom tells a funny story well doesn't he he does he does and he's also it is worth acknowledging what a well-turned-out person he is. Just superb, sharp suits that really fit him,

always accessorised with a beautiful silk handkerchief and a great tie. I bet he's got some lackey pants somewhere at home. No, I don't think he has, actually. I genuinely don't think he has. And we've had a very high standard of male guests this week, sartorially, because Paul Feig yesterday was also incredibly well-turned-out. That's very true. Has it changed how you look at yourself in the mirror? I'm thinking not.

Right, here's Tom. Hello. Wow, what a great round-up. You did that better than I could have done myself. Well, look, would you start by telling us a bit about your dad because he does sound so fabulous and you put ahead of every chapter a little thing that he said or did that has really meant something to you.

And he just comes across as such a wise, lovely bloke. Oh, well, that's very nice of you to say. Well, I am cursed with this posh voice, of course, but it's not from anywhere. My parents are really kind of working class Londoners, I suppose. And my dad was from Penge, although he would say, I'm not from Penge, I'm from Annerley, which he thought sounded better, but it didn't. And my mum grew up in Sydenham and my dad was a coach driver. But sort of since losing him,

I've realised that he did have moments of great wisdom. So my publisher suggested actually framing each chapter with something he'd said. And then I realised, well, my dad wasn't like Giles Brandreth, didn't have like witty epithets for everything. But he would have odd phrases like, it's cold enough for a handbag, which doesn't actually mean anything, I've since realised.

It just meant it was very cold. I assumed it was something Cockney, but no one's ever said it before in Cockney, Fitcher or elsewhere. So he said some eccentric things. I won't repeat any of the obscene ones, he said. But he did also, he would have nice ones like, you can never have too much love, which I thought was a nice, I realised it's a very profound thing to say.

It's not like gas and oil, it doesn't run out. And also always go into things with a good heart. So I think it's very easy to go into things kind of kicking and screaming. He said it to me about maths. I said, I don't like maths. He said, go into it with a good heart because you're going to have to do it. So you to go into things kind of kicking and screaming. He said it to me about maths. I said, I don't like maths. He said, go into it with a good heart because you're going to have to do it. So you can go into it hating it. You can go into it trying to like it.

And I did, and I quite liked it in the end. I like the bit in the book where you talk about an attempt by you, a very good-hearted attempt to do the right thing for your parents and take them somewhere you thought they'd like because you could, because you'd done very well for yourself. And actually, you go to a hotel. Is it it in cornwall it's a hotel in cornwall and i thought they'll love this uh it was very chic and modern and you know very cool and i thought oh they're like i'll treat them to this because i'm on tour and i could afford it and i wanted to treat them but they absolutely hated it and well my dad especially they didn't have a reception area

so just had a man with a with a clipboard and some eyebrows coming out when my dad especially they didn't have a reception area so just had a man with a with a clipboard and some eyebrows coming out when my dad arrived and um and my dad and he was like can i help you at all sir and my dad went yeah i just want to check in and he was like well we don't really have a reception there we just you know how are you feeling would you like a juice and no i wouldn't i just want to get my room keys and then later that i got an amazing room overlooking the ocean went into their room later in the day and they pulled the curtain and i said why have you done that well it's oh it's too bright and i and then my mum went oh it's too warm in here for your dad and i said why don't you open the window my dad went oh the sea is too loud it's like a motorway and i realized

as well that i thought this would be a wonderful treat. And of course, actually, it was just me trying to impose my silly, you know, urban, you know, cool, trendy ways. Well, you had become horrifically sophisticated, if I can put it that way. Well, that is very kind of you to say. It means a lot. Do you find it quite difficult in these interviews to be constantly asked about your dad? Because actually, that's a very recent loss. to be constantly asked about your dad? Because actually that's a very recent loss. Well, I suppose I didn't really consider it because I just thought, like with stand-up,

which I do as my main stay, I try and talk about things that matter and that connect with people because they are important to me. And other people go, oh, I relate to that as well. And so I just felt, well, with this, I should maybe try and put it on paper and just be honest. Because I think it's very easy to sort of assume that it's all going to be like, particularly with this, I should maybe try and put it on paper and just be honest. Because I think it's very easy to sort of assume that it's all going to be like, particularly with grief, that it would be like a film or a book.

A lot of time people have quite glib things they say to you. And I just thought, well, if I write about it honestly, then maybe it'll help other people. So I suppose it is a little bit tricky. But to be honest, it's been nice to talk about Dad and, you know, have space to do that. Oh, good. Hopefully not in a Downer way. I'm not a Debbie Downer over here talking about dead relatives.

No, you're an Ursula uplifter. Oh, that's very good. She prepared that. That's beautiful, actually. That's beautiful. I feel like I've been very flattered. Jane said something very true, actually, about the book before you came on air, that you're very capable and confident as a writer to share, but not to overshare.

And that's quite a tricky thing, isn't it? Because I think there is some oversharing at the moment. Oh, what, in life generally? I think so. Oh. And in some memoirs. And in some memoirs, really? Well, I thought, well, of course, one wants to make it accessible to the people

reading it. And of course, I did want to make it humorous, because that's always been my default setting. And even in grief, you do laugh, you do find funny things. And like, you know, so I just tried to kind of stick to those rules. But has anyone pulled you back sometimes in your writing and said, actually, you know, maybe you don't want to? Nobody wants to hear this. No, actually, nobody said that to me. I thought they might, but nobody did. And I did try and be just as honest and as vulnerable as I could be. David Sedaris, I think, has the saying of just think about what you're really ashamed of. Think about what really makes you cringe with embarrassment and then write about that.

And so I tried to learn from that, really, because I think that is true. Because with a book, people take you on holiday with them and they take you to bed with them. And so you owe it to them to be truthful. So I try to do that as much as possible. Which is a lovely way to enter the part of the conversation where I wanted to tackle American toilets and feel so like this. Oh, yes. They're not the same as ours, are they?

They're not the same, are they? No. Well, the thing is, I didn't realise until I read your book. It's the door. Why? There's barely a door there. But I think the male stalls are very different to female stalls. Well, that thing is, I didn't realise until I read your book. It's the door. Why? There's barely a door there. But I think the male stalls are very different to female stalls. Well, that must be it.

Yes. So it was a whole new world that you took me into. Well, it was very, they start very high off the ground and they finish quite low down. So there's barely a sort of strip across the middle and there's gaps around the outside of the doors. These are in public toilets, of course. But then sometimes they have like Louvre doors on them as well.

You know, those sort of slatted doors on them. And I found that very alarming. And I can only understand why they're so polarised at the moment with that's their stress that's underpinning their society. I mean, you have shy bladder syndrome. I do. Do you? No. That's a personal question. But I do.

No, sorry, I thought we were going to go into a phone-in. It's like being back on Woman's Hour. It's just... Isn't it just like being back on Woman's Hour? By the way, it's a very... It's not a laughing matter if you do have a shy bladder. Well, I do as well. I've gone for whole journeys.

Yes. I never used to be able to go on a train. Right. And how does that... And I used to go to Edinburgh on the train. I thought it was better for the environment. Oh, please. You couldn't possibly have gone on the train all the way to Edinburgh

and not gone to the loo. I went to Australia as a teenager without going to the loo. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's not good for you. You must have been in agony. Well, you know, pain is sometimes a source of great inspiration to me. That's a different phone-in. That's a different phone-in.

It really is. Different station. I think it's your next book as well, Tom. Would you mind talking us through, not the entire chapter, where you visit a gay sauna for the first time, but some of the tension around that? Because I think you were 22. Yes.

And Fionnuala was saying earlier, this is a world that obviously no straight woman is ever going to navigate. And it just, it seems such an intimidating place to enter. gay person went and so I was kind of curious about these places and I think as a as a queer young person you often do end up going on these journeys on your own because you might not have people around you who you can immediately identify with so you sort of go out on your own and I remember going to this place which was next to a wine shop as I remember a majestic wine shop in in the east end I had to sort of go across this car park because gays have to pay and display and um that could be the name anyway the um went in and um was quite intimidated um but then there was you know there were bits of it where it's quite sociable where there's like a tuck shop and there were people sat around watching emmerdale farm it's the fact that it was club biscuits and was there really emmerdale farm on

the screen on the screens they had yeah yeah. Yeah, and then Club Biscuits and Kit Kats as well. All manner of confectionery. And there was all these different areas which were quite intriguing. I mean, I was sort of more intrigued by the interior decor. One bit was sort of themed around ancient Greece. Another bit was sort of themed around, well, it sort of

had carpet on a stairwell with a look like a photocopy shop. But it had all these different zones, like the Crystal Mopy shop but it had all these different zones like the crystal maze so it was very intriguing and I was sort of more drawn to that actually and didn't really go in there for the purpose that it was set out for I just actually had quite an intriguing

time walking around. Well walking around until you fell over Well I did slip over yes in a sort of what was I suppose my first attempt at slapstick comedy. And did make the person who was staring at me at the time laugh. And sort of broke down barriers. And that's a good thing, isn't it?

And what was really touching was that your dad, I think, picked you up from the station. Yes, well, he did, yes. So nothing happened there, really. And I got a bit tired. A bit tired of walking around in a towel. And I haven't really got the chest for walking around in a towel and I was trying to look more pronounced but I just ended up sticking out my nipples and then um I went home and as I was on the train dad said are you all right do you want to lift and I said yes and that so it was the least kind of um

extreme experience I could have had in that context and my dad always was very much on hand with a with a lift. And he said, did you have a nice evening? And I just went, yes, and didn't tell him anymore. Right. Could you have told him anymore? No. No.

Okay. Would anybody? No, I mean, I think I probably could have done. But no, I just, we sort of, what I found in writing the book is a lot of our connection, a lot of our relationship was actually about things we didn't say. Like my dad would show he cared by making me a bacon sandwich. And he would give a bacon sandwich to anybody who came to the house, vegans, anybody really. So it's sort of the complexities

of affection, I think are one of the things I've realised. Tom, have you ever been to Japan? I have been to Japan. I don't like to mention it, but I have been to Japan. But people go to Japan solely for the purpose of telling other people that they've been to Japan, I think. And let me tell you, it is a wonderful place, very polite. There were signs that said things like, I went to a temple, there was a sign across it saying, please don't come in. And I thought that was a lovely thing, and I would like that perhaps on my house. And also, it's very polite, of course, in Japan.

Everyone takes their shoes off all the time people do a lot of bowing we a friend of mine a so-called friend and i went to find a theater in kyoto very beautiful old city wandering around could not find this theater eventually found this very uplit building very beautiful i thought this must be it walked in went through the screens walking through the different rooms couldn't find anybody to ask what was going on or what to do all these empty rooms just couldn't find anybody to ask what was going on or what to do. All these empty rooms, just walking around. And then this woman came out eventually in a very immaculate traditional Japanese outfit and

makeup and hair. And she looked at us up and down, quite alarmed. And then she went, this is my house! And it was awful because we were there with our shoes on and we had to do a lot of bowing to get out of that. What I love about that is that you went, I have no idea why you went in August, July and August of 2012 when everything was happening here.

Well, everybody said, do you remember that everybody was saying, oh, the Olympics is going to be awful. Oh, it's going to be, you can't go to London. Everyone was so down on it. Everyone was going, oh, it's going to be awful. You can't get the tube. And they're telling us to stay at home. I mean, can you imagine such a thing being told to stay at home? Oh, I never wanted the Olympics. It's

costing so much money. And then as soon as it started, everybody went, oh, isn't the Olympics great? Aren't we great? I know. And I thought, well, hang on a second. For the last, whatever it was, years, seven years, you've all been moaning about it. So I thought, well, I'm going to get out of here if we're all going to be moaning all the time. Went to Japan when it was actually quite cheap to fly there, obviously because no one was flying that way round everybody's flying into london no one's flying out and it's absolutely boiling like 100 humidity which i thought was what does that mean sounds like a river yeah it was very very warm i think you're a deliciously uh contradictory person tom because on the one hand in your writing you've got a kind of

vulnerability and uh you know you're capable of admitting that you were shy, you know, you had difficulties in your life and all that kind of stuff. You kind of make out that you would be very happy just being at home a lot. But then you take off to Kyoto, you take off to Japan. Tonight he's going to East Grinston. Tonight I'm in East Grinston. You did stand up in New York. You know, you do push yourself as well. So how do those two things kind of add up? Well, I don't know.

I think I just quite like the idea of challenging myself. No, but you see, you go through with it. Lots of people like the idea, but they never get further than East Grinstead. I don't. Yes, I almost do it as a dare to myself. I think it's so kind of ridiculous. Doing stand-up was sort of so ridiculous

that I should have ever attempted it. But then I quite liked the audacity of it and then kind of kept going. But more and more as I've got older, I do quite like just sitting indoors quietly. And I think the world would be a better place if everyone just sat down and shut up. That was another one of the things my dad said, actually. If you can't improve on the silence, keep your mouth shut. Well, it's not a piece of advice Fionn and I want to hear. No, it's not. I wasn't saying it to you.

I wasn't saying it to you or to anybody or anybody in the radio industry. Having said that, you have always, according to the book, anyway, had an affinity with middle aged women. Arcalas, dinner ladies are a big favourite. You were the lad who would gather by the dinner lady who was watching over the playground. Yes, she was my main friend. And around about that time, when I was at primary school I did develop a sort of identity uh or identified with um High Synth Bouquet quite strongly I did feel like very much I was a middle-aged middle-class suburban housewife and not a housewife how would she describe herself as a matriarchal figure and even though I was sort of nine years old, which is quite a lot to explain to a dinner lady in Bromley, and yet I still felt very strongly

that I must be in some way connected to Hyacinth Bouquet. And latterly sort of became more identified with Patricia Routledge herself. I felt very frustrated. Like, why was I being made to do PE? Patricia Routledge wouldn't have to do PE. Why was I having to do, you know, a spelling test? Patricia Routledge wouldn't have to do PE why was I having to do why was I having to do a spelling test, Patricia Routledge wouldn't have to do a spelling test

well, she probably did in her time yes, probably, I realise that now but I was unusual, I didn't have many friends because I told the other children that I was an emperor, so I was odd, definitely but I sort of think, I owe it to people to say

well I'm odd sometimes, and then other people go, well, actually, I'm a bit odd as well, and then we all feel a bit less alone. Well, your emperor-ness, what would we say? How would you address an emperor? Imperial Majesty. Your Imperial Majesty. It's been really lovely to have you in our studio today. Lovely to be here. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. Tom's book is

called Too Much. It's been described as hilarious and poignant by Jo Brand. Well, that's a very nice quote. We can't really beat that, can we? No, we can't. And we wish you luck in East Grinstead. Have you played East Grinstead before?

I think I have. But it's a place with Tudor beams and that doesn't really narrow it down. But I'm looking forward to going to maybe some sort of cafe this afternoon when I get there. That was the comedian Tom Allen, whose book Too Much is available is available now yeah he didn't say the word lubricant on um the live show but that is what he slipped in uh at that sauna i think listeners to this podcast are adult enough to hear the word you're not you're naughty you are not going to leave work today

without having got lubricant into some kind of a broadcast element because you had an editorial meeting about it this morning. I know. I just asked, could I say lubricant? You see, I've been in lots of meetings like that over the years. Perhaps they're, you know, they're not your normal. Well, no, I'm broadcasting house. Well, trust me, we did. All right. Yeah. Anyway, it's a funny book and we really like talking. And we were grateful to Tom for making time in his day to come and see us because he was on his way to a gig in East Grinstead. I hope that went well for him. Gretchen has sent us a really, really thoughtful email. So here we go. This is my first time writing into any show. Can you keep me anonymous or could you call me Gretchen? I just have. We're all right.

I've been a listener almost from the very start of your pod careers. And I wanted to thank you because your podcast has helped me through the difficult time when my partner and I realised that my then six year old daughter had autism. She went through a big mental health breakdown in a very damp seaside cottage on a summer holiday in Wales. And needless to say, it was very traumatic because we were still so clueless about everything. Because we didn't have a phone signal in that cottage, I found myself driving up the hill to a huge car park in the vicinity and calling the helpline of the National Autism Society, asking all the questions I could think of. And it was in that car park that I started listening to your show. And it's kept me halfway sane since then. The good

news is we are now slowly getting out of crisis mode and many good things have come out of this journey. I've been one of the many women who have recently had a late diagnosis of ADHD and it was indeed life changing. Thank you for touching on that topic a few times in your chats as well. Warmest regards and all the best for your new show. I'm delighted I'll be able to listen to you whilst cooking dinner in the evenings. Well Gretchen it's lovely to have you on board and I think you know to be serious for a moment one of the things that we would really like to do with this podcast and it is what happened with the last podcast is create the kind of place where you can write in about stuff that is going on in your daily life that you might not think is relevant to other podcasts other broadcasts and quite often it's

about the people you're caring for it's about the tough times you're going through and it's about the things that might make you laugh or keep you going along the way and you might think they're trivial but they're not they're really not no i agree and gretchen thank you for letting us i don't know letting us into your life um you've been kind enough to um listen to us and engage with what we're prattling on about so we really appreciate it and i think you paint a very very vivid picture of driving up to that car park um perched somewhere high on a hill where you could get a signal because you were just a bit desperate frankly and calling that helpline so i really hope you're getting uh you and your daughter and your partner are getting all the support you need um not an easy time and i hope you're able to to get through it um and if we can help in any

way however trivial then that's good enough for us. George says, I found your previous podcast. I'm not sure how, but I was glad I did. Well, George, we don't know how we found it either. So I certainly can't expect anyone else to know how they found it. A little bit about myself. I'm a 39 year old gay married man. Well, actually non-binary. And I live in Indiana in the USA. Not your target audience, I'm sure. But you've always reminded me of listening to the adults at the adults table. How many times do we have to say, Fi, we have no target audience. We'll be listened to by anybody.

We just don't care. Welcome aboard, George. On an old episode of the previous podcast, you discussed grief. And it just happened to be on when I was driving to my brother-in-law's. It was the first get together after his wife, my sister, had died from COVID at the age of 35. This was just before the vaccine was available to our age group here in America. And you really helped in a time that was so hard for me. Anyway, I felt it important to share. So relieved I now have another avenue to listen to you both. Lots of love from George and our love back to you as well, George. And how awful that your sister died at such a young age

from COVID. That is very, very tough. I think we've forgotten, haven't we, also how we felt before the vaccine. And it must be so, so painful for somebody to have died before the vaccination became available. And I remember a friend in America telling me she'd had the vaccination months before it was available here. She was part of a family that had someone visiting a ICU unit all the time. And I just remember thinking, I'd just I'd like to come over there now. You know, I'd like to be part of that protected group. So I'm so sorry, George, to hear that about your sister.

But like Jane says, it's lovely to know that you're with us now. Thank you for all of your emails. And we really do love hearing from you. You can take the topics outside of what we're talking about already in the podcast

or on the live show. Anything you like, really. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio is the email address. Well, thank you very much for that, Fee. I hope you have a lovely weekend. Unfortunately for us both, we have to see each other tomorrow.

But we do have two days free of each other to experiment with other human beings, which we're both looking forward to. And we'll be back on Monday with some good guests, actually. The stars of My Dad Wrote a Porno are going to be talking to us. They are, and their podcast is ending, Jane.

What will we have in common with them? My dad hasn't written a porno as far as I know. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can.

Monday to Thursday, three to five on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon goodbye