Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Some very frank details about prostate examinations - with Tony Robinson

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

Jane is considering speed-learning the lute, while Fi wonders whether we've lost the art of cooking with a mould.They're joined by actor, writer and presenter Tony Robinson, whose new podcast Cunningcast launches tomorrow.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kea BrowningTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So we've just been on air on tenterhooks like cats on a hot tin roof watching the Privileges Committee chaired by Harriet Harman put Boris Johnson through his paces about whether or not he recklessly misled Parliament to do with parties and all sorts. How are you feeling now, Jane? I'm a little bit boss-eyed, actually. Well, Mr Johnson is sticking very firmly to his stance that he did nothing wrong. And can we just make a few idiotic observations? Everyone's had a haircut. Well, not only has Boris Johnson had a haircut, he's had a hair smooth not only has boris johnson had a haircut he's had a

hair smoothed down hasn't he so not one single bit of that tufty kind of cockatoo thing uh was poking up at all uh during the well it's three hours now isn't he that he's been in there so someone's applied a product i think they definitely have. By the way, I'm not, everyone has had their hair done and I would do the same. If I were on that committee and I knew that I was going to be on television screens the length and breadth of the land, even I would have straggled a brush through my mop. I really would. So everyone's trying their best, looking smart. Let's be honest, some of the MPs are rather better at asking questions than others. Some of the MPs are rather better at asking questions than others.

And we're told they've all had help and they've all been instructed on what to say and when to say it. So it's all quite carefully choreographed. But what it also tells you is that, you know, Britain isn't as diverse as we might like. So Harriet Harman, the chair, was at St Paul's Girls' School. That's your phone going off. And she's very, you know, very brisk and very authoritative, and Boris Johnson, of course, went to Eton,

and sometimes you think it would be good, wouldn't it, if we just had a little bit more going on in terms of diversity at the top of our political tree. But what do you think that would have brought to proceedings today? Well, you just can't help... Every time Harriet tells him off, I'm just thinking St Paul's Girls' School 1, eaten nil. I can't, I mean, it's just, Britain has changed,

but sometimes you think, actually, not that much. I had a sensation, a parenting sensation, watching the proceedings today, and obviously, you know, we don't want to prejudice any outcome, so this is simply an observation on what's happened. But I know they have to go into intrinsic detail, don't they, about who saw what, said what, which trestle table came down which corridor and how many times, you know, somebody stood next to somebody else under two metres and all that kind of stuff

and it is very important but also there's just something there would have been something brave and bold in I think a better admission of having got some things wrong you know when you're telling your children off and you know in there is a different answer to the one that you're continually, continually getting. And I just felt the same level of frustration. You weren't expecting contrition from the right honourable... What's his real name? It's Alexander, isn't it? Perfeffel. Yeah. Really, were you?

No, because I don't think he does that. It did take me back. I'm actually thinking of Boris Johnson. Donald Trump was supposed to be arrested today. Well, what time is it? Quarter past was supposed to be arrested today. Well. What time is it? Quarter past five in the UK. Not a whisper. We wrote something about this in our little book, didn't we? About the power of the alpha male. And irrespective of what happens to Boris Johnson today, there is something about the crumbling of power of the alpha male going on across the world at the moment.

Because, as you've mentioned, Donald Trump is due to be arrested. And that's because he says it's going to happen. It's not us saying that. Andrew Tate has had his remand custodial period of time extended, hasn't he? Again, yeah. And Boris Johnson has been facing all of this today. And I think, didn't we just say in a book, so you wrote a very funny chapter about wanting to have, was it the booming confidence of the alpha male yeah something like that to take them into situations and I think I wrote a little bit just in praise of the beta male which is just a completely different type of man, who I think does display characteristics that just haven't been celebrated enough in men. But I would so welcome seeing more of that. Come on, beta men.

Yes, I love the beta male. But by their very nature, they're not out there shouting, are they? They're not the ones that are pushing themselves forward to the front and who need that kind of constant validation of triumph along the way. So welcome all beta males to this podcast. I don't believe that the alpha male is listening to this. You're very welcome if you're beta. And if you're living with a beta, then congratulations, you've won the lottery of life.

Right. We should say we did get one or two emails during the course of the programme saying, we don't want this. We want your normal goofiness. And well, actually, we do. We do also cover the news, don't we, in the programme? We do. I felt in that sentence it had capital letters. We cover the news. We certainly do. But this afternoon, there was just wall-to-wall coverage of Mr Johnston's, Mr Johnston, Mr Johnson, I'm being very polite, evidence to the Privileges Committee. Rolling news, they call it.

It'll never catch on. Right, do you want to do some emails? Well, I do. This one comes from Susan, and it's going to take us in a completely different direction, and thank you for that. Susan says, I'm a 52-year-old mother of a 17-year-old daughter. She was born here in Germany, where I've lived for over 20 years.

On her return home from school yesterday, I was surprised to actually see my daughter in the flesh as opposed to simply hearing her arrival, followed by a mumbled hello and the sound of her trudging up to her room. She had news. She was buzzing. And as it turned out, rightly so. One of her classmates had asked to be excused from a lesson to go to the toilet the male teacher pointed out that this

particular student had only just returned from a toilet break not 10 minutes previously and wanted to know what possible what possible reason there could be for her needing to return and the student without missing a beat stated quite matter-of-factly my tampon is in the wrong position and I need to go and fix it and with that she left the room. The response from her classmates none a couple of raised heads wry smiles nods of approval but otherwise they simply got on with their work. Retelling this story to my female friends prompted conversations about how this simply would not have happened in our day. We chatted about the secrecy and or shame attached to anything period related back then and the inevitable and numerous stories of embarrassing period related situations. And Susan says, my daughter's story made my day in a world in which it can be increasingly

difficult to pick out positivity. The attitude of this upcoming generation gives me real hope for the future. Well, Susan, you and me both, that is a lovely story. I'm delighted at that response from her classmates. And it just is about time, isn't it, that that completely normal monthly thing is allowed the kind of rational rational non-drama just matter of course discussion and openness so hurrah for that yes and thank you for sharing good good good all good um there was a story in the sunday times last weekend that tampon sales are on the slide yes because the younger generation

don't want to do that they don't want to that. They do free bleeding in the lighter days and moon cups if they can. So it is interesting that, isn't it? I mean, also, I should say that tampons are not cheap. And I think that might be if that's got bound to be a factor, isn't it? I know period poverty is a very genuine thing. Although, again, that was something else nobody ever talked about until five or six years ago. But it'll be interesting to see whether the San Pro industry, which makes an absolute fortune and largely goes unchallenged,

actually carries on or continues to flourish. I don't know. Well, quite a few of the companies have already diversified because they've seen the way that the market's going. What, to incontinence pads and things like that? i see yeah i mean i guess well let's be honest as we all live longer and age incontinence pads will remain a thing yeah uh i used to get invited every year to the reception at the house of commons of the hygienic absorbent something

organization i couldn't go unfortunately you would have thought that they would have got a clever acronym so it could be PADS Personal Absorbent oh yeah come on you're on to something I was going to say deodorise but we don't do

that no we don't need to why should we societies we just need to find the right D. Come on, somebody will be able to do it. And then we've got pads. We do have a guest, you'll be relieved to hear. It's actor, writer and presenter Tony Robinson. More of him in a moment or two. But a lovely invitation from Alice,

who is going to be conducting the Marriage of Figaro at the Royal Academy of Music this Friday at 6 o'clock. That's amazing. And she's invited us, hasn't she? She has, and I'm hosting my weekly drinks, so I can't come. But Alice is a little bit hacked off with this, and I kind of don't blame her, actually.

I'll come. Do you want Fi to come? You can email in again. She says, do either of you like opera? Now, officially I don't like opera, but I was blown away when I went to Glyndebourne over the summer. I thought it was just incredible. So I can't say I don't like it.

I can only say I don't know enough about it. I'd happily go to that, actually, because I really like the point that she made about people, you know, needing to break down that stuffiness that still surrounds classical music in particular. And we were talking about the joy of being in an orchestra, weren't we? As I was trying to persuade you to take up an instrument. Because actually being in the middle of an orchestra when you're playing

is just a really amazing thing. And she had had this crackin' idea for you and I to go and sit in the middle of an orchestra and do a kind of commentary without even performing or playing an instrument. So I think maybe we should explore that a bit more. It would be quite good fun. It would be good fun. I think you'd learn something from it, Joanne.

You both make jokes about going to the theatre, says Alice, implying that it's all high art and snobbish. Well, I love some total trash on television, Death in Paradise a particular favourite, but as somebody working in the performing industry, right now we're all terrified for our livelihoods and especially for future generations. We're being decimated by the current government

and your former employers are doing nothing to help with that. The BBC singers, orchestras being disbanded, etc. Very few of us earn more than teachers. Most of us are freelance with all the security that entails. Alice, I absolutely take your point. And yes, I do take the piss out of going to the theatre whilst going to the theatre really quite regularly and very rarely not enjoying myself, if I'm honest.

So let's knock that on the head. And we'll come and sit in your orchestra and chat our way through. Do you want to just quickly apologise to people you've offended who play the lute? Yes, I'm really sorry. Yes, because Imogen sent an email saying you referred rudely to lutes in relation to your theme tune, Jane. And she sent a very nice link to a YouTube video

where you can watch Liz's talent and the lovely sounds. So that's a little something that you might be able to do. Maybe you could do that on Friday night at your drinks thing, just pause to admire the lute. Perhaps I could speed learn the loot between now and Friday. Oh, God, don't. And you'll be sorry, won't you? Denise has emailed us from somewhere that sounds absolutely wonderful.

The Highfield Farm Creamery in Wisconsin, USA. Oh, to be there right now. I've just had a really nice Welsh cake. You won't know about those, Denise, but they're absolutely lovely. Have you had one there outside? No. It was white chocolate and coconut. I thought they were just big biscuits.

No, they are big biscuits. They're a little bit deceptive. Because you take a nibble and a whole world of flavour bursts in your gob. Denise says, I was reminded of my father's salads when Chick talked about her own father's old school salads, which was just a lettuce leaf with a giant tomato. My dad, says Denise, absolutely loved Jell-O and would put all sorts of fruit and veg into it. I remember shredded cabbage in lime jello as our salad many times, alternating with another of his favourite salads, listen to this,

canned peas with a dollop of mayonnaise sprinkled with paprika for a bit of colour. If the jello had canned fruit in it, then it was deemed dessert, and we had it at 7pm before getting ready for bed. But the worst abomination was my mother's favourite, healthy low-calorie salad, which consisted of sugar-free lime jello with canned tuna, mayonnaise and chopped green olives. I haven't had it for 45 years, says Denise,

but I can still taste it if I close my eyes. You are a lucky woman, Denise, and please tell us more about your farm creamery. What do you do in a farm creamery? Well, I should think you make cream. But more than cream. Ice cream. Well, there'd be butter, maybe a little bit of cheese. Do you do cheese? American cheese.

I once caused a lot of... I mean, I've had a lifetime of causing offence, but I went on to a very, very rural radio station in Georgia in 1996. I can remember it precisely. And basically they had a phone in. The phone in was more or less, you can talk to a foreigner if you call us up now. It really was in the middle of nowhere. And people rang up and asked me questions about what it was like

to visit Georgia. A man asked what I didn't like about Georgia. And I said I didn't like American cheese because it was really terrible. And it is. American cheese is just... I thought you were in the Republic of Georgia. No, the American state of Georgia. Oh, okay. So I was just thinking,

gosh, wow, what was the story there? Well, anyway, the guy got really angry and slammed the phone down. Oh, OK. Right. So I was just thinking, gosh, wow. What was the story there? Well, anyway, the guy got really angry and slammed the phone down. Oh, my goodness. I know. So that's, I mean, I really do have a history of causing offence. Yes, you do. Can I just say on the subject of dad's cooking, and I don't want to kind of pander too much to a stereotype,

but my lovely dad used to add fruit to nearly everything that he cooked. So he was a huge fan of curries and there was always, it wasn't just mango that went into a curry. A bit of sultana? Yes, quite a lot of sultanas, but you'd also find quite often a bit of banana. Oh no. Just a little bit of apple. It was his signature thing.

And one of my loveliest memories of him actually is whenever he cooked, because he kind of knew that not everybody liked it, and this lovely cheeky smile would come over his face and he'd just reach for something in the fruit burger and put it in. And you'd go, oh, no. Please don't. Please don't. But he made curry.

Yes, he made curry. Well, the fact that he made it gets him a giant star from me. But he'd make a beef stew and, you know, put a little bit of banana into it. He just loved that combination. So I think we have to give credit to dads for spicing up. Old school dads. Yeah. For trying.

Yeah. For trying in the kitchen. Yes. Yeah. And also I can kind of picture those put anything in Jell-O salad things. I think we've lost the art of cooking with a mould. Because do you remember? We've lost the art of cooking with a mold because do you we've lost the art of cooking with them have we have jane because don't you remember in your childhood we just had so many fantastic wobbly puddings that were always lemonges and stuff

yeah in rabbit molds why would you have a pudding that was in the shape of a rabbit? Was that just our household? No, I don't think it was. No, we had all sorts of, you're right, wobbly and actually really quite revolting puddings. Yeah. Well, Angel Delight was never a, I mean, did it wobble? Sort of. That's gone from our kids' lexicon, hasn't it? Oh, they've missed out on some.

I think they have. All they've got is pornography well I think if you just brought back food and moulds they'd soon lose interest in all that nonsense and in general the new theme music has gone down very well so keep your thoughts coming

and we will endeavour to we aim to if not please at least not really irritate the living daylights out of you. So that's the best you can hope for, really. So our guest today was Tony Robinson. Now, he was on really to talk about his new podcast, Cunning Cast. And we do talk about that. And what we don't really talk about in any detail is Blackadder.

So I'm just putting it out there. If that's what you were tuning in for, hoping to hear all about what really went on behind the scenes, there's none of that here. What you will get, and I need to issue a warning, is some very frank details about prostate examinations. Now, this is because Tony himself has had prostate cancer and one of his editions of the new podcast is dedicated to the subject, isn't it? Yes, and we should just say that he is currently well. Yes, he is.

I'm so sorry about that phone. I'm busy tonight. Dangle, dangle, honestly, yes. There's obviously a lot going on. But I think he does a very good thing, actually, and talks very lucidly and practically about what happens when you are examined. I didn't know some of the things he told us.

Well, it is frank. So if you're not in the mood for some frank chat about what happens when you go to the doctor and get your prostate examined, then don't listen towards the end of Tony's conversation. But he's a fascinating bloke with a lot to say and it's really, it's interesting stuff. So the first episode of Cunningcast is about Stonehenge

and that's where we started our conversation. I should say that on this podcast, which is a fantastic addition to the popular history podcast genre. Thank you. Thank God for that. Thank God you're there. He is joined by archaeologist Raskia Dave. Now she also features in the programmes we talked about with Dan Snow. So she's omnipresent these days. Mike Parker-Pearson and Alison Sheridan. So here is Tony Robinson starting with his thoughts on Stonehenge. I wanted to do a batch of 12, apart from anything else, to see how they went.

Because it's audacious and a teeny bit arrogant just to do a whole load of podcasts just about stuff I'm interested in, as varied as this particular list is. But when I got them all together, I just said to the people who I was working with, Zinc Media, you decide which you think will work best as the first. And we're doing two a week. So the first two are Stonehenge and Miriam Margulies.

And the one thing I like about this... Are they linked? Well, they're only linked in that they're both subjects of my cunning cast. She didn't build Stonehenge, did she? No, no, she would have done, had she been there at the time. It is the dirtiest thing you've ever heard recorded. But wonderful in that glorious miriam way and because i've known her for so long i don't it's well over half a century you know we were in rep together my first job in rep was with miriam i kind of feel like i've got quite a lot on her right well i'll make a point of listening to that

one when it's made available um tomorrow tomorrow okay today or tomorrow right um stonehenge continues to mesmerize because we still know absolutely all about it really i wouldn't say that's true i think we are gradually learning much more about it who built it then the people who built it we don't know who they are well i tell I'll tell you what we do know. God, you're aggressive, aren't you? Yes. At the start, I thought they'll lull me into a false sense of security and then hit me hard with questions like who built it. What we've learnt so much in the last five or six years

is where it was built and how it was transformed. We seem to have... We've vaguely known that uh the smaller stones came from wales we now appear to have found the actual mine that they were built or they were hacked out of and and depressions which seem to be the depressions for them we've also discovered that there are a lot of other stone hinges around that area so that was a it as it were, a Stonehenge culture, which, for whatever reason, was transformed all the way down to southern England.

Although one of the fascinating things, I think, about the podcast is in addition to my mate Professor Mike Parker-Pearson, who knows more about Stonehenge than anything else, we also had someone in who was a specialist on finds and she argued very comprehensively that we can see from the finds that you get around Stonehenge and up in the Orkneys and the Shetlands and on the eastern coast that there was regular communication three four five thousand years ago around Britain that all these great ceremonial buildings were, as it were, inspired by each other.

Can we just talk about, I should have asked this earlier on, what is a henge? It's basically two bits of wood sticking up and one bit of wood lying across it or later on stone. Right, and this was somehow signified something at the presence of? Well we see things like it all around the world at around the same time this this taste for monumental building things that will last. What seems to be the case as far as Stonehenge is concerned edging nervously towards

not trying to answer your question about who built it is that there is another site called durrington walls which is very close to it which was like a huge glastonbury with an enormous wooden henge all the way around it and we've found a ceremonial pathway i think the i think i'm right in saying it's the only neolithic path in the world that has yet been uh absolutely uh discovered and it goes all the way down to the river and then it comes back up again near stonehenge so what they appear to have been doing is feasting at durrington walls uh cremating bodies and then taking them up to Stonehenge, Hange, Hange, Hange, Hange, Hange, going, as it were, from the land of the living through to the land of the dead. And that, OK, I can't tell you that it was Dave and Gloria Smith

who built it, but I think beginning to learn that kind of thing is quite magical after all this time. For people who haven't been able to visit Stonehenge or who visited it very recently, and that's a different thing, isn't it, because you're quite kind of contained as a visitor, can you explain the magic of it? And do you think Stonehenge is there because it was a magical place or it's now a magical place because Stonehenge is there?

I think a bit of both. But I also think think and a lot of historians write about this there is a thing in our culture which is and most cultures which is about the importance of place that people will have gone to somewhere three four five thousand years ago treated it in our terms reverentially left bodies there. And the memory of that resonates through the ages. So 1,000 years later, other people will use the site and just shove their own people's bodies in. Someone will come up 500 years later and it's a mound,

so they will build a fort around it, more people will die, and it achieves another layer of meaning and reverence. So it does make sense to me that Stonehenge, and not only Stonehenge, but probably about 14 square miles all around it, has been treated to something like we would call worship for thousands and thousands of years. And the fact that we still go there and the old druids go there and the tourists go there now seems to me not rubbishing it. It just seems to be, to me, a continuity of that respect

for a particular place. And built where it is, it does feel magical. And whether it's because we know that it's been treated with respect for thousands of years or whether it just is, I don't know. I don't think my emotions are sufficiently well-tuned enough to know. But it certainly is.

It gives you a buzz. What's the one thing that you would really like to know about Stonehenge? Who made it? That I could tell you. Yeah, well it would be good. It's not, no, it isn't quite that. It's really where those people came from. What intrigues me so much is, was this a culture that was brought from elsewhere? Chris Stringer, one of the profs at the Natural History Museum, said to me the other day, for people to move, all that needs to happen is that every new generation moves their garden

one garden further in the same direction. And then, and within a thousand years, you'll find a great movement of people across the continent and and i would love to know whether that whole idea of these great buildings came from maybe you know the middle east or the far east maybe from india my goodness they were further ahead than we were at that time uh or whether actually what it was was mobile people in England who went overseas. You know, like in the 18th century, the rich young men went over to Rome and Florence and saw all these buildings and came back and built their stately homes. You know, maybe it was a Neolithic version of that going on.

Now, can we make a seamless link now to a ritual that most of us will be watching or listening to in May, which is the coronation. Because you've got, I think, an episode about the coronation a little later. Yes, I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's in a magnificent building, Westminster Abbey, that we associate with pageantry, with ceremony. And are you looking forward to it?

Would you describe yourself as a monarchist? I think my... I would have said in my early days that I was, I was a Republican. I think my, my attitude is, is more complex than that. I recognise that throughout my life, this rather extraordinary, demure woman who was our Queen, actually did an extraordinary job on holding our country together at a time when it could have fractured much more than it did. I also recognise that there is a great deal of love and affection, both for her and the kind of pomp that surrounds her.

And it seems to me that it would be rather boorish to chop Charles's head off, for instance, which might have happened had we been French in the 18th century. Nevertheless, I have huge issues about whether or not the monarch should be able to affect and even change our legislation, whether our monarch should be in charge of one sect of one religion, which gives it a head start, doesn't it? And its representatives should be in the House of Lords

and not elsewhere. And whether they should have enormous amounts of money and not pay tax on it, all of those things worry me intensely. Do you think all of that is about to change? Who knows? You would have said so as far as charles was concerned some time ago but an awful lot of radicals when they get into positions of authority do tend to swing to the right a little they do get pressure on them they can't decide

which palace they want to lose yes exactly so you don't think that no no i'm not saying that that's not fair i'm just saying i think you you know, he clearly is a man of integrity. We've all given him so much shtick over the decades, haven't we? You're both smiling, which is good on radio because it doesn't show. Giving nothing away. But he did seem a bit of a twit. All the stuff that he was saying about what is now a central issue to us, the environment, just seemed like a mad old man talking to trees.

And now an awful lot of what he said was profoundly prescient. And although I don't necessarily agree with him about modernist architecture, nevertheless, the fact that he was continually looking at the world around him, thinking of, I'm never going to be able to say this word, ecumenicalism, is that the word? Ecumenicalism. Yeah, in a way that a lot of people weren't previously. It was lovely the way you both helped me out on that one.

We're really professional. We just keep it quiet. Something else I admire you for, Tony, and I think you and Esther Ranson are notable because you have been really public about ageing and about the problems of older people and the challenges that they face. That's sweet. But I mean it because it's not actually an issue

that's embraced all that enthusiastically by too many people. I think you've just got to say, are old people part of us or do they stop being part of us somewhere around 65 and we shunt them elsewhere? If we are going to say they are, if they genuinely are part of us, then the things that are important to them ought to be important to all of us, just as primary schooling is important to us,

just as mortgages are important to us, not necessarily because of us, but because of the rest of the people around us and it really hacks me off that we're not really prepared it took a long struggle to get uh uh testing for women's breasts and that was a fairly easy organizational thing to do with what's happening now as far as prostate is concerned. In fact, it's so difficult to talk about it. The fact that so few men are actually prepared to have a finger up their bum when most women have things the size of Eurostar

up their bits and pieces and don't moan about it. We're not trying to pull any face at the moment. I just want you to know that. Actually, it's interesting you mention that about men and these examinations, because they are, you're right, women have to accept a smear test, for example, is no woman's idea of a good time, but they are life-saving and it's so important that you have them.

So what do you have to do to change that attitude from not all men but perhaps too many men about exactly that kind of treatment? Well, I'm not going to be able to do it on my own, but I have put one episode of my podcast solely about prostate cancer. I think the first thing we have to do is understand a bit more about it. I know loads of people, including myself, they said, oh, I've got prostate cancer.

I say, how big is your prostate? What colour is it? What's it do? Silence! Tumbleweed! So even somebody with it doesn't know. Yeah, doesn't know what it is. And when you ask them, so what are the latest medical developments on prostate cancer?

More tumbleweed. You know, it is something that all the people say is, we've got to talk about prostate cancer in a rather severe tone and possibly wear a little silver badge. But the real debate about it, which is fascinating, I think, one of the issues which I know will interest you too, you must have come across it in other areas of medicine. In order for something to become incorporated into, as it were, our culture of medicine, it has to jump a huge number of hurdles whether it's to do with

with pharma the pharmaceutical industry the government the nhs uh so what that means is if i invent a cure for prostate tomorrow the next day i'm not going to be curing prostate it'll be 15 years on before it's all integrated into the system so that the testing and the follow-ups and everything that's going to be required will come into place by that time the thing that i invented 15 years ago won't be nearly as relevant anymore because someone else somewhere will have found something else so that this huge lag between the discovery and our ability to use it properly is i find incredibly frustrating. So can we solve some of those prostate things immediately here and now?

What does your prostate do? It sorts out other stuff, basically. I don't think it even has a primary task of its own. What we do, what we know about it, it's one of those glances what we know about it is from when it goes wrong and what are the first symptoms that it's going wrong uh for most of us that aching feeling at night that we really want to get get onto the loo but we're too tired to and that lasts usually till the first squirt and then we decide that we will get up and go. That's nice.

Yeah, but it's all about we, isn't it? We've all been there. I don't know whether women talk about this too. Front door panic. That moment where you're 100 yards off from home, you start to accelerate, you get to the front door. Where are the keys? The keys drop on the floor.

You've got two locks. You've unlocked one. You think you've only locked one when you went out. Oh, no, you've unlocked two. You get in. The alarm's on. How do I stop the alarm? You get the alarm off.

You've got to get your pants tucked in with you. Not that I've ever experienced that. How could you possibly think I have? The dog's biting around your ankles. The seat's down and it should be up. And then your willy's sideways and it goes squirting off towards the wall. You know. Yeah, you lost us there. But we were absolutely with you on the first part of that journey. And just to be helpful, if anybody's listening who's never had their prostate examined, what does happen when you

go to the doctor to have your prostate examined? You lie on your side, you bunch up so your bum is kind of open. He talks to you a lot, usually about the weather and that kind of thing. The cricket? And then, yes, yes, oh yes, certainly, it is a very class bound. And then he'll rub some lubricant into you. Then he pops his finger into you and takes it out again. And then he puts what I suppose is the camera in. It's not like a television camera, you know.

It's like a little torch thing. No, it's not ITVX, is it? No, no. And most of the... Sometimes you jump. Sometimes you do jump. But most of the time, you actually, you do get used to it. And then you get kind of cool and you think, right, OK,

so I'm going to go in, I'm going to be really zen and really relaxed. And here it comes. And it's out again. Now, going back to your question, what does the prostate do? One of the things is it's actually one of your rude bits. You can be stimulated by your prostate. So bearing that in mind, why are so many men reluctant to have that exam? Because they think it's sort of sexualised, but it's not. Yes, because they think if you touch a rude bit up their bottom,

then they'll become homosexuals overnight. I'm probably oversimplifying the mechanism. But no, I think there is something deeply protective about a lot of people and one question that i've been asked a lot is so why don't i get off on it when the doctor puts his finger up my bum and the answer is because the doctor you shook then when i said that the the answer is because the doctor is so aware you know is aware that that is some a secret place that needs to be protected.

And so they treat it with hopefully the kind of respect which I hope your gynaecologists treat your bits and pieces with. How are you now then, Tony? Fine, absolutely fine. You are? Yes. I am in roughly the same position I was when I first had it. I'm monitored every four months if it goes

if the count the what's it called the pci psi yes if that goes up then i have to be monitored a bit more frequently and i have a scan thing uh about once every two years it's fine the like the the overwhelming likelihood is that because I get it completely checked, I will die with it, not of it. If something goes wrong, nowadays, if it's detected early, there's keyhole surgery, there are drugs. So it's a horrible thing if it goes wrong. It's a bad cancer that will treat you horribly.

But if you're sensible about it, just go in, get your... For goodness sake, you know, you're a man. You ought to be able to take a finger up the bum without running away in terror. It's just silly. Just silly. But getting through that culture is enormous. Well, we've made strides just in the last couple of minutes, I think. As long as all this can be a broadcast.

I think I can hear feet running out of the building. No, not of the building and something else you did for a documentary a number of years I think it was 2012 when you went into a care home and spent time living in a care home you really you made the interesting point that a number of the residents were veterans of world war ii and they were men who who just had a lot offer, lots of life experience. But to a degree, probably to a shameful degree, they were sort of ignored and somewhat sidelined. They are. It is very odd about our society, isn't it? I'm not suggesting at all that we all become Chinese communists. I mean, if you want to think about it before you accept that, then do.

But if you look at that stage of all the men who are the senior Chinese people, like 200 of them, they are virtually all elderly. And that's not about the communism. I think it's more about China. It's about the fact that elderly people have always been incorporated into the body of Chinese culture in a way that elderly people simply aren't in our country. I cannot imagine, somebody can tell me

I'm totally wrong on this, I can't imagine that war veterans, D-Day veterans, Battle of Britain veterans or the like in China would just be forgotten and ignored in the same way that ours are. It's rubbish. It's just rubbish. I want to be proud of my country. In that sense, I feel quite passionate. You could even say I was a nationalist as far as that was concerned. I want to be be proud of my nation i think the way we treat our elderly now will be looked back in will be looked back at with the same kind of shock and horror that we think of child labor of slavery of women down the mines we'll think how you know our our people in 100 years time will think however could they have done it did they just not see what was going on and what do you think will make that change

though i don't know do you think it's us being more vociferous in our old age as generations who i don't know, maybe have, I don't want to say an arrogance because it's not that. What is it, Jane? Well, less deferential, certainly. And more of a capacity for shouting about our unfortunate circumstances. One of the problems that we're dealing with is the fact that we now have drugs to give people this long life, which we haven't had previously so right it's like like like the the gender issue which kind of bedevils the the whole

of certain sections of society at the moment one thing people seldom say is this is new that you you it was so difficult to to to go through those ghastly operations until very very recently and very few people did it it's it we are having to deal with our own science and and our morality and our understanding always lags behind the sciences i don't know i don't say i think it's true with gender and i think it's true with elderly people too. What's next for you? Oh, God, what am I doing? I'm doing, I think I'm probably doing a documentary

about Blackadder because it's sort of 40 years. We've got through the whole interview. Oh, that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You two used to work at the BBC, didn't you? We did. But we've got through the whole interview without mentioning that too.

Yes. And I've got through the whole interview without mentioning that too. Yes. And I've got my own series, which I pitched about two and a half years ago. And with these pitches, they just go away and they just go into the ether and you think everybody's forgotten about them. My idea was, I know nothing about engineering, but anytime there is a big machine anywhere near,

I will go over and watch it until my wife drags me away and I wanted to do something on big machines that I didn't understand from the POV of someone who doesn't understand them and so I've got a trial six episodes What's the title of that one?

Tony Robinson's Marvellous Machines It sounds good Tony, lovely to meet you Thank you for coming in After all these years, the first time we've. Well, Tony, lovely to meet you. Thank you for coming in. After all these years, the first time we've met. Well, let's not make it the last. Oh, please. Tony Robinson. You might know him as Baldrick from Blackadder,

a subject we didn't really talk about in any detail. His new podcast is really interesting. You will love it. It's called Cunningcast and it launches tomorrow. And he's also going to be making those shows for TV, which sounded interesting, Tony's Marvellous Machines. Now, I did think when he was telling us about Tony's Marvellous Machines,

because the ease with which he said, yes, I just had this idea, and I went along to the commissioning people, and I said, you know, I see a big machine, I'm fascinated by it, and he's got a series out of it. So if you could wander up to a commissioning editor, something that just fascinates you, and, you know, the title is going to be Jane's something somethings, what would that be?

Oh, the thing that has always fascinated me is just the double standard. So the way that women and men are judged very differently. And I think there must... Would you dress up as a man and get a man to dress up as a woman? Let's see how that works I don't think I'd really get that far dressing up as a, well you never know do you

but actually to go back to the earlier topic of Mr B Johnson he is a man who has behaved in a way in his public life that only a man ever could and there's not a cat in hell's chance that a female politician in this country or I suspect anywhere in Western Europe could have conducted themselves in the way

you'd be off on maternity leave for most of your career. There's that as well. Okay, right. An astute remark. Do join us tomorrow for more Off Air. Our guests are both on Off Air and on the live radio show tomorrow is Susie

Eddie Izzard. So, to put it mildly, quite a lot to talk about there. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, so am I. So have yourselves a lovely evening. Jane and Fee at times.radio, if you'd like to get in touch with this podcast. You can take the podcast in any direction you like.

So don't wait for us to start a topic. We're always interested in what's going on in your life at the moment. And actually, maybe we could turn that into a tiny theme. If you could just walk into a commissioning editor's office and something that you find fascinating that's not on your television at the moment, because there are so many copycat programmes. Well, I'm sick to death of crime shows, which basically are just about women being murdered, solved by... There's always one rugged copper. Then there's one who plays by the book and is slightly more intellectual.

They're all by the seaside. There's got to be more to life than this. I'm sure there is. In the world of fact, though, I think at the moment I am bemused by the number of programmes which are pitting people against each other. So, you know, the traitor thing. Oh, yeah. Rise and fall.

Put everybody in an experiment. Let's see lots of people bitching about each other behind each other's backs. That kind of thing. No, I can't stand that kind of thing. I mean, we come to work, Jane, so we've got that box ticked, haven't we? But that kind of stuff. Sometimes I just, at the moment, when I'm flicking through the channels, not to quote from Bruce Springsteen,

but there's just something missing. For me, 54-year-old woman, intellectual. No, I was going to say with quite average taste. Yeah, I'm a middle-of-the-road TV viewer. I totally get what you're saying. And I think what was aimed at us last night from memory was it Anton Dubek and the other chap going on yet another tour

of Italy? Of Italy, yeah. I mean not that they've ever done a tour of Italy before but there have been so many travel shows set in bloody Italy. And they're all with men, aren't they? They really are because Stanley Tucci did the Italian thing. He's always

zooming around in Italy. So that's what I'd love to hear from our listeners about. What do you want to switch on your television, eight o'clock on a weekday night, and see somebody doing something that is intriguing to you? I don't want Greg Wallace in a hairnet going into a factory. Actually, last night, or was it the night before, I did find myself, I was lolling on the sofa as Greg

explored the wonderful world of the double decker bus. And it wasn't that it was uninteresting. The other contributors were actually very interesting. There's that historian, is it Ruth Goodman, who I really like. And she was looking at the history of buses. But Greg was just boinging around like this giant toddler

in a factory, just exclaiming in this faux goofy way, which just drives me to drink. And also, I don't want any more property shows. I think we've just done that. We've just done that. So, love to hear your thoughts. Send us an email and we'll see where we go with it. you did it elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our

whimsical ramblings otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast off air with jane garvey and fee glover we missed the modesty class our times radio producer is rosie cutler the podcast executive producer it's a man it's henry tried yeah he was an executive now if you want even more and let's face it who wouldn't then stick times radio on at three o'clock monday until thursday every week and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects.

Thank you for bearing with us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.