Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Something nearly as good as pancakes... sex! (with Clive Myrie)

Episode Date: September 13, 2023

Jane is a tad hangover so bear with them as they tackle elocution lessons, Meryl Streep audiobooks and multi-use hotels in today's episode. Plus, they're joined by journalist and broadcaster Clive Myrie to discuss his new memoir 'Everything is Everything'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Because he was leaving office and I'm leaving the office soon. Slight difference. Just a slight difference. So we've had so much correspondence about the interview that we did with Rory Stewart. Hang on, have we started the podcast now? Yes, we have. Oh, OK, great. Hello, everybody. No, I started ages ago.

Did you? Just catch up. I don't know what it is. Anyway, carry on. We have had, I agree with you. What? A lot of correspondence. Oh, okay, sorry, right.

We've had a lot of correspondence. I'm back in the room. We've had a lot of correspondence. Jane was out last night, kids. We've had a lot of correspondence about our interview with Rory Stewart. He was in to talk about his memoir Politics From Within and he's a person who just really divides opinion so

I would say there were slightly more people who were a little bit annoyed with him but there is a very vociferous and almost equal number of people who are annoyed with us. Yeah, which is kind of how we like it, really. And one of those people who's annoyed with us is no less than Dame Esther Ranson. No, just pause a moment. Let that one drop. Let that one drop.

Dame Esther Ranson got in touch with us. She did. She emailed janeandfee at times.radio. So if Esther can get round to doing it, why haven't you? She writes as follows. I wish to protest. I write to protest. The last thing I want to do is offend her by misreading

her email, so we'll get it right. I write to protest. As an addicted fan of yours, and also of Rory and Alistair, I couldn't care less whether the headcount of women they discuss on their The Rest Is Politics podcast is high enough. They are obviously discussing politics, so they mention politicians relevant to the most crucial issues of the moment, the vast majority being men. So, criticise the world for not electing enough women to powerful or influential roles if you want, but that isn't Rory's fault.

if you want, but that isn't Rory's fault. And he did spend months telling us how wonderful Gillian Keegan is, perhaps over-enthusiastically, now that she's Secretary of State for Education and has instantly brought the roof down by revealing her potty mouth. And also, by trying not to bring the roof down in schools at the very last moment, she's caused chaos in loads of families. So she certainly has been discussed. Yes, that's true.

And thank you, Esther, very much. I know that you are a regular listener. We're delighted to have you on board. And I mean, Esther, there is a good illustration of the fact that V and I really do mean it when we don't expect people to agree with everything we do or say. That's the beauty of it all. Contact us anyway. We just really want you to. Because often we're wrong. I'll correct that. Often I'm wrong. But what I would say, actually, and a number of people have made this point, that Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell have another podcast called Leading, and they have interviewed some very interesting female politicians in that podcast. And the one I did listen to was one with Mary McAleese who had been she was the second

female president of Ireland after Mary Robinson and if I'm honest I had slightly forgotten that Mary McAleese existed but it was a fascinating life story hers so I do recommend that actually that was a really really interesting interview. This one comes from Sean, male listener number 136 in Berensfield. Dear Fi and Jane, after your intriguing interview with Rory Stewart, it appears there is a bias towards old Etonians, especially from Lady Jane of the Pool. Towards old Etonians.

Yeah, I think so. I think he means the opposite, actually. I personally know two former pupils from Eton, or as I like to tease them slough grammar. One is an artist and has a small holding breeding rare pigs. The other is an author and naturalist currently campaigning for the ever dwindling numbers of curlew. They're not power crazed megalomaniacs. I mean they both sound lovely to be fair. Don't start. And I think the likes of Eddie Redmayne, Bear Grylls, Hugh Laurie and Matthew Pinson would agree.

All former pupils, good to have you back. So thank you for all of those. And there were a couple of men, actually. Gosh, can I get to a man in time? As if I said that phrase before. Here we are. Here's Adam. Have a go.

Hello, both. You know I hold you both in high regard, evidenced by all of the albeit unread correspondence. Well, Adam, now is your chance. I just need you to know I smarted a little tonight because I was made to feel I'm an intruder on your podcast. I'm

a better person for listening to your insights, experiences and views. And even if you implied I might not be welcome, nothing will stop me listening. So there. Well, Adam, I'd like to apologise for that because we mentioned in the interview with Rory Stewart, you know, that we do have men listening to this podcast. And I referred to the fact that sometimes the men seem to be in on a joke with themselves, which is that not very many blokes are listening. Hence the, you know, previous number 146 or whatever. But actually, I would be horrified if that was interpreted as us not welcoming men at all.

No, that was never the case. Because that's not what I was trying to suggest. And actually, sometimes I think it is incredibly useful to listen. And I wish that I could do more incredibly useful to listen. And I wish that I could do more of listening to men talk to men without them being conscious that women are listening because you learn so much more. And it's one of the huge problems of our time that men have stopped saying things that might be going through their heads

for fear of being cancelled and castigated. And I think women have done the same too our conversation because it's what is it Jane is it authentic is it authentic um because usually unfortunately yes yeah because you know it is an honest conversation we are delighted if men are listening because you're bound to just learn an awful lot more than if we were being practiced and polished women and perhaps in previous iterations of our jobs we've had to be slightly more circumspect about what we say oh yeah so all aboard all aboard all aboard yes um i just wanted to mention sue who just says

have a heart she is also referring to rory stewart i think he's doing doing his best in spite of acknowledged privilege to make the world a better place. And for the record, all four of you, that's Offair and the rest is politics, have nursed me through the wee small hours of the last 12 months since my husband died from cancer. Sue, I'm really very pleased that Fee and I can just form just a very tiny part of your cohort of support, if you like, and we're very, very happy to do so.

And please keep listening for as long as it helps. But I hope you're OK. Yeah. And can I just say hello to Sarah and to Sue Thomas and also to Jen. We haven't got time. We haven't. What's happened there? I don't know. What's happened? I don't know. But the money you spend on elocution lessons was a waste of money. We haven't got time to read out every email, but I'd just like you to know that I have read yours and we do take everything on board.

So I think that is enough, Mayor Culper, that is enough of the hair shirt. That is enough. Yes, absolutely. Right. I just wanted to also say that this is a very important email from Maria. I manage two libraries in South Devon and Anne Cleave's books are very popular. She's a big supporter of libraries. That's true. She is, isn't she? And independent bookshops. They were very happy to host Anne launching the first two books in her Matthew Venn series. She was modest, friendly and generous with her time and she gave

lots of advice to new authors and she's with us again this Saturday to mark the third book in the series. That's the one I'm listening to right now. It's called The Raging Storm. So Anne will be at Kingsbridge Library this Saturday at 11 in the morning. That's good to know. Also good to know that you've started the book club book. I have. That is Oyenka Braithwaite's My Sister the Serial Killer. And I'm not going to reveal anything about my views because I know people are absolutely on tenterhooks to find out what I think. September the 22nd is going to be our discussion about that book. And we'd love it if you wanted to join in. So just to reiterate that the whole point of the book club is it's recommendations from all of you that we will read,

but we are going to try and be a bit varied, aren't we, in the type of books that we pick. So this one is... Would you call it crime fiction? I don't know, it's not really crime fiction, is it? It's about a crime. It's got a great title. That's just a brilliant title.

It also has a brilliant cover. And these things are not insignificant, I think. And it's also not that long, so not insignificant. Here's a question for you then, as a lover of audiobooks, does it make any difference to you at all what the little cover on the audiobook is when you're scrolling through? No, you see, I think the equivalent there would be the voice of the reader, of the reader of the story. Yeah.

And they do vary and some are brilliant and others are not so good. And sometimes I will absolutely gallop through a book because I love the, I just love the reader's voice. Ben McIntyre's book about cold hits I listen to rather than read. And Ben McIntyre read it and he has an amazing voice, really lovely. So I don't know, it just seemed to vary a little bit. Yes, no, for sure. I tried listening to some Lee Childs and whoever it was who was reading that, I just couldn't do it.

I just couldn't do it. That's interesting. It was a kind of Americanised accent. Do you read books by Anne Patchett? No. Have you read The Dutch House? No. No, I haven't read it.

It was hanging around on holiday last week. I didn't read it, but I did pick it up. But Anne Patchett's new book is called Tom Lake, and the reader of the audiobook of Tom Lake is Meryl Streep. Woof. I know. I mean, you'd book her. I mean, how much did she cost?

Yeah. I haven't told you I went to dinner with her? Right, this one comes from Natasha. Thank you for reminding me of the classic tune Only You by Yazoo. So if you've had an earworm in your head for the last week that is Only You by Yazoo and you've only just managed to lose it,

I'm so sorry, it's back again. It's Looking From The Window Above. Yes. Story of Love. Yeah, that. It's been such a joy listening to it again after so long. The song that my music streaming algorithm went on to recommend, After Only You,

was another classic, I Love You Always Forever by Donna Lewis. And when I hit play, I was immediately transported back to the way I felt just after my son was born. Finally getting to cuddle him and stare at his perfect little face and feeling a wave of love wash over me. I'm now in my last month of pregnancy with my second child, and this song has been bringing me a real sense of lightness, joy and hopeful anticipation. I'm particularly grateful for this as I'm also struggling with aching joints, brain fog and fatigue,

whilst also acknowledging the privilege of having a healthy pregnancy. I'm hoping to listen to it during the birth to help get me through. I thought I'd share this song recommendation for anyone else currently in the depths of pregnancy or who might just want reminding of what it feels like to fall madly and sweetly in love. Isn't that a lovely email? Who's that from? Natasha.

Natasha, good luck, Natasha. I hope it all goes well. Huge amounts of luck. I'm really glad I haven't been heavily pregnant in the heat. I don't think I'd have liked that very much. Oh, I had an August baby. Oof. Yeah, it was.

It was a hot summer. It was very clammy. Yeah. It was hot. I was very careful to time only winter babies. But then I'm an incredibly efficient person. Right, here's one from Caroline. Dear Jane and Fee, Plymouth has the most beautiful saltwater art deco Lido.

It did fall into disrepair, but fortunately underwent a massive restoration and reopened in 2003. And it's about to have another £3 million investment to make it more accessible for the youth outreach water sports hub well that's amazing a hub there's a three million pound hub jane in plymouth it sounds beautiful and really lovely and that's just such a good news story because i know of lots of lido campaigners who are really really struggling to get the investment that they want and need, despite all these amazing facts about what a Lido gives the community. It's a lot more, actually,

than quite a lot of other leisure and sport facilities, Jane. Well, I hope they... Good luck with it. Yes, I wish them well too. I'm afraid I can only think of Plymouth. This won't increase the audience to this podcast, but I once had to spend a lot of time in Plymouth. Does it feature pancakes, the anecdote? No, it doesn't.

No, but something nearly as good as pancakes, sex. I was filming a daytime television show, my very short-lived daytime television show. Mercifully, no footage is available. Don't go looking. And for reasons I've lost in the mists of time... Pauses podcast and looks. It was made in Plymouth.

So that meant I sort of weirdly took up residence in the Grand Hotel Plymouth. And one night I was woken up... CJ took up residence. Most people would say I stayed in. No, I'm joking. It was a comedic turn of phrase. I did it for laughs.

Okay, carry on, sorry. Yeah, no, one night I was woken up by the most extraordinary sex noises coming from, I think it must have been the room next door. And it was just, and it made me think, have I actually ever had sex? Because that just, what are they doing? I mean, honestly, i had absolutely no idea

that it was possible to be that noisy and i'm afraid now whenever i think of plymouth and i can name the year but i won't just in case it was you and if it was just think on um it was just absolutely extraordinary. Never happened to me before. And I've stayed in all sorts of hotels. But I've never, ever been woken up by that before. Well, you weren't expecting that, were you? To be honest, I was expecting a pastry-based anecdote because I've got quite used to those. I was not expecting a loud sex anecdote at all.

And was everybody happy? I mean, everyone was having a good time. From what I could gather, but it was just, it's just one of those experiences. As soon as she said Plymouth, I'm just back there. There's nothing I can do about it. We all have those little triggers, don't we, where

we're just catapulted straight back into an experience when we hear a word or a place name. Well, I have exactly the same thing about St Petersburg. I've only been there once. We went there to film an episode of the travel show. We stayed in a really, really cheap hotel down in the port. And we all emerged a little bit shattered at breakfast the next morning. And slowly we worked our way around the table with everyone like did you hear

it yeah I heard yeah I heard it and it was a it was a place where sex workers would take their clients and all of us had been awake all night right listening to some very loud, performative antics going on. And it was a really, it was a very horrible thing to listen to. Oh, gosh. Well, it isn't great. No, it's not great. Well, no, but see, you were probably listening to two people just having a fun, maybe more, I don't know.

Sounded like it might have been more than two, but look at what... Who am I to judge? I don't know. No, but you hopefully... What you were hearing was substantially worse. It was just really awful, actually. And we were all shell-shocked by it, actually. I'm not surprised.

Really shell-shocked. I've never been back to St Peter's back. No, OK. Right. Well, I mean, you are a part of this, so if you have anything to add to this particular conversation, it's janeandfee at times.radio. We did have a very funny email today from a bloke called Johnny

who just said, because we've been talking about snoring on the radio, he just said, no, snoring, I can't tolerate it. I've thrown a man out at four in the morning, I think he said, because of the snoring. I just won't tolerate it. It clearly is a matter of extreme seriousness for lots of people, isn't it? I'm just trying to move the conversation along from violent sex noises heard in the night by the unsuspecting.

Anyway, our guest today, Clive Myrie, came to Times Towers earlier today and caused quite a stir in the office. He did, actually. In particular, one of our colleague's grandmothers is a huge fan of his. So we asked Clive to give her a hello and he kindly obliged hey lillian how you doing i hope you're well so lillian is listening in a far-flung destination i think and she has uh downloaded the times app she's got across all of the tech just so she can

get to you oh lillian lillian it's wonderful wonderful that you're hearing us loud and clear and uh it's a pleasure i hope yeah i mean it's quite bold at the start of the interview isn't it actually yes you might have lost her by the end of the interview i think she's had enough already too busy to do any more shout outs okay that was the only one we're doing right our guest is clive myrie um bolton's greatest export apart from the others uh news reader on the bbc of course a frontline reporter which we'll also talk about and the relatively new host of Mastermind. And you are from Bolton, but you do support Manchester City.

And can we just get that over with? Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, yeah. Why? Why? Because when I was six or seven, I just liked the sky blue. That was it. That literally was it.

And I've been stuck with them ever since for 40 odd years. They paid you back relatively recently. Relatively recently. with them ever since for 40 odd years they paid you back relatively recently well relatively relatively recently but much of my time as a supporter has been painful okay and i think the less said about that the better yeah okay and does it bother you who the who are the owners are yeah of course it does of course it does but you know when you cause a bit of moment of success, it's, you know, those things fall away from your mind, actually. But it would be difficult, I think, to find any franchise in any major sporting environment that doesn't have some issue, shall we put it that way. All right. So you're stuck with Manchester City.

I'm stuck with them. Yeah. And they're stuck with you. Stuck with the owners and all. Right. Let's talk about you then. Let's talk about this book. You called it A Memoir of Love, Hate and Hope. Everything is Everything is the title. So this is about much more than your career in

broadcasting. It's about racism. It's about your family's experiences and your family's journey. And you had a great uncle who fought in the First World War. Now before you started working on this book, did you know about him? No. Right.

I had no idea. So how did you find out? William Runners, talking to my dad. Talking to my dad, having the kind of conversation about our life, our history, the Mairi legacy that I never had with him before. And knowing I wanted to write the book, and he's in his 90s now, he's 94,

we would be having these great conversations about stuff, about life. And I wanted him to paint a picture of what life was like for him in Jamaica before he came to Britain. You know, trying to get out of him an explanation as to his sadness about living in Britain and his level of unfulfillment as a worker, as an immigrant. And all this stuff started coming out. And I was talking about my uncle Rennie

and my uncle Cecil, uncle Cecil being my dad's brother and talking about his wartime experience and he said, yeah, and you know, you've got a great uncle who was in World War I. I said, why? He said, yeah, and he walked with a limp because he was injured

and he was a detective in Jamaica asica as well and i instantly thought of death in paradise um i said really and he said yeah william runners was his name william runners and it was a big local sort of figure in the community um in this area called green hills in um western jamaica and uh and he fought in world war one and he they would but they wouldn't give him a gun my dad said they wouldn't give him a gun, my dad said. They wouldn't give him a gun. And they didn't trust them. Didn't trust them.

They did give them guns, but they were old-fashioned, effectively musket-type things. So there was a level of self-defence that they could employ in dealing with the enemy. But by and large, they were at the mercy of the Germans because they weren't given the equipment. And I thought, this is incredible, i'll put it in the book and your dad norris yeah um he does he's a very interesting character because he has a truly ambivalent relationship with britain he does he does and it's it's very nuanced but it's really interesting i mean just tell us a bit about that yeah i mean he was a very carefree, good-looking guy in Jamaica.

You know, loved the sunshine, loved the heat, loved the carefree life that he had. And he was his own boss. His own boss. He was a shoemaker, cobbler. And, of course, he comes to freezing cold Britain where there's racism and bigotry, but also an alien environment, an industrial landscape. So imagine coming from the beautiful sort of blue of the sky and the sort of sandy beach and the greens and the, you know, the purples and yellows, the vibrancy of the Caribbean,

and you come into grey Lancashire. That was a discombobulation. That was a shock. the Caribbean and you come into grey Lancashire that was a discombobulation that was a shock and then also the realization that he couldn't really be carefree or as carefree as he was before he couldn't be the happy-go-lucky guy he was now having to bring up a family in an environment that he didn't really like he was somebody else's employee he had to follow rules and he's never really acclimatised and got used to all of that and in fact I said to him

just a couple of nights ago I said you know he was congratulating me on the book and he was saying you've got everything in it you wanted and I said yes and I said I do chronicle your unhappiness and he said yeah well it was hard

it was tough for me so yeah um it's it's good in a way that you're you're still able to have these conversations yes because they're not comfortable conversations are they no they're not and they're actually they're conversations that we're having now because we're getting on so much better than we ever did not that we were sort of um having arguments or stuff but we just never were in the kind of environmental situation where it would foster that freedom of expression and discussion and and conversation because he was quite a distant father when we were growing up now in the book you say that actually neither of your parents could really your mum is lynn by the way couldn't point to absolute examples of

racism they've been put through well they wouldn't they didn't want they didn't want to absolute examples of racism that they've been put through. Well, they didn't want to. They didn't want to. But your mum had been a teacher and her qualifications were not deemed to be good enough when she got here. Yes. And that must have really rankled. Yes, it did rankle.

It did rankle. It's, you know, Andrea Levy writes about it brilliantly in Small Island. You know, you've got Hortense, my mum, you know, teaching in Jamaica, feeling that they have a status in society and being a teacher was such a big thing in the Caribbean because, of course, you know, education for the colonized, the black people was very basic during colonialism. And as a result, you know, a black teacher was seen as a big deal. And so there was a status there that my mum had.

And all of a sudden, that status was taken away from her in moving to the United Kingdom. So that was difficult. But they were also told that they were equal citizens. That was the point of the British Nationality Act of 48. And it was an experiment that had not been done and a situation that had not been established since the Roman Empire, that an empire said every single member of that empire is equal.

You're all citizens. And that was why you had the Windrush, Empire Windrush, come over. Well, you know, until I read this book, and I should have known this and I didn't, and I'm just going to admit it, I hadn't realised that so many British people had left Britain after the war that, in fact, Britain turned to the Caribbean because of our other people

actually becoming immigrants themselves and going abroad. It's a dirty little secret. Well, is it? Is that how you see it? I mean, I was amazed that I didn't know. I do see it that way because what I think most people believe they know is that there were shortages of manpower because of the war. I knew that, but I didn't know why.

Yeah, exactly. War brides. And some people might have been killed. Guys who would have been on building sites and whatever, reconstructed Britain, they were killed in Germany or wherever. Okay. Does that take out enough people of the population to cause a serious manpower shortage? No. What causes the manpower shortage is 2 million Brits going to Canada or Australia or New Zealand, and you cannot blame them. That's one thing I hope I get across

in the book, that they did not want to hang around Russian book Britain. Who would? You know, Coventry was bombed to bits. The East End was completely flattened. You know, there was starvation. There was hunger. It was difficult. Yes, Britain won the war, but really it was on its knees.

It owed America a whole ton of money through the Lend-A-Lease program. It was Tony Blair who was the prime minister who paid that off. So that's how poor and knackered and broken Britain was. And it was Churchill who said, don't leave, we need you guys. We don't want you to become £10 bombs, although they didn't exist then, but he was making the point that you need to stay behind

and rebuild the country. But Britain was knackered and those people were knackered and so they left. So there was a shortage. But the key thing here is that the nationality act under that making everyone in the in the empire uh citizens equal citizens the british didn't think black people would come they thought it would be aussies and canadians and kiwis who would come and then when it turned out the empire windrush was full of black people, 11 Labour MPs had a late night meeting with Clement Ackley to try to turn the ship around,

because they were convinced that Britain's character would change. And it has. It's become multicultural Britain as a result. And I think that's a good change, but some people don't agree. Well, the fact that your parents were reluctant to acknowledge or didn't feel able to acknowledge the racism they'd been made to put up with, how do they feel about you being really quite upfront about your experience of it? They understand it. They understand why I felt it was important to put that in, because there is this understanding, I think, or belief among some people,

and in fact it's been made clear to me in one interview that I've already done, that people might be shocked that my family have been caught up in the Windrush scandal. That was your half-brothers? That was my two half-brothers, Lionel and Peter. That, you know, Clive Myrie, for some reason, he's caught up in this.

Like, it's something that only happens to poor people or people who aren't famous or people who haven't achieved anything or do you know what I mean and I wanted to get across that actually racism happens to everybody um Trevor McDonald's family if they came over in 1948 under that act and in the years after 48 he'd have his folks would have been in the same situation. Lenny Henry, Moira Stewart, I don't know. Name a black person. If they came over under the 48 Act, they could have been caught up in the Windrush scandal. And that was the point.

And I wanted to get that across and also get across the fact that, yeah, I might have achieved a few things in life, but that does not stop people using the N-word in correspondence and emails and tweets and whatever. It does not stop people using the n-word in correspondence and emails and tweets and whatever does not stop it at all let's just sort of talk a little bit about that because that shouldn't be happening and i suppose i might have thought that since you started talking about it in public that it might have stopped but it still hasn't that's interesting why you think

that might have happened because i'm a lily-livered pinko who hopes that people will reform or just not behave in that way. No, you can't legislate for individuals. What you can do is try to get rid of the structural disadvantages and the structural inbuilt racism that exists. And I think as a society, Britain is on its way to trying to sort of deal with a lot of that. No question. But individuals, yeah, there's always going to be a loon out there always got for whatever reason you cannot legislate for for someone feeling a certain way about another individual um and you know i i don't know how it's education is what's going to help people like that um but those people used to wind me up. Now I just have unbridled pity because they're just sad losers.

Do you reply to people? I do sometimes, yeah. What do you say? So one guy got in touch. I did a profile. There was a profile of me in The Times. And he got in touch and he said, you know i my

country has changed and it's disgraceful you know i sort of walk around parts of london and it's it's just horrible and i see these black people out smoking dope and you know you just and people like you you know you should never have been allowed in here. Never have been allowed. First of all, I was born here. And I made that clear to this chap. I was told I couldn't swear on it. I was told I couldn't swear. So I made that clear. And the implication was always from some of these people that you were given the opportunity.

You've been given everything that you have given the opportunity you've been given everything that you have not that you weren't not that i earned it not that i worked my balls off for the last 30 years as a journalist you know on occasion getting shot at or whatever no none of the no you yeah you know you you've been given everything and you're turning against this country how can you say you're ashamed of britain because of the wind can you say you're ashamed of britain because of the windrush scandal i am ashamed of britain because of the windrush scandal no question about it um and i made that clear to him and i also met i also spelt out the um the fine um print within the 1948 nationality act that meant that we were all citizens. And as a result,

we didn't just wander over here, we were invited over here to help rebuild this country. And I made the point that I made to you, Jane, that 2 million white Britons left. So if we hadn't come over, or my folks had not come over, Coventry wouldn't have been rebuilt, the NHS would be short of staff, as it is now, British Rail wouldn't be running, etc, etc, etc. And then I said, thank you very much, goodbye. Got an interesting email here, Clive, about PTSD,

which V and I were talking about actually before you came in. And this is because in your book, I mean, you've been in some truly terrifying situations. There's a chapter that references a trip you had to Borneo, which was truly terrifying and about which I knew nothing. But you do say that you don't think you've ever had it. And this emailer says, I don't know what Clive says about it,

but PTSD is much rarer in broadcast journalists because they work in teams and have the ability to share with each other in real time. I should say that's from our colleague, actually, Catherine Philp of The Times. Yeah, that's really interesting. Probably true, actually. I know that after the two and a half weeks

that we were in Ukraine together for the invasion of the war, we could have flown directly back, but the BBC said no. Fly via Romania, have two days to decompress and just think about what you've been through and then fly on back to London. And it was a brilliant idea, actually. And there is counselling that you can get here at the BBC. At the BBC. At the BBC.

Yes. Careful. Careful, steady. And so there are mechanisms there to help you, having been through some of these horrible experiences. But I say in the book that images stay with you. There will be instances that you'll never forget. But I haven't been in the position where I've been unable to function,

to do my daily job or do what I would normally want to do as a result of those recollections. So I don't think I've got PTSD. It hasn't been diagnosed. And there haven't been situations that have cropped up that have made me feel that I need to get it sort of checked out. Not yet, anyway. Do you feel that you might have witnessed some colleagues

who are actually rather addicted to trauma in exactly the same way that, as viewers, you can be pulled into seeing more and more of the darker side of the world? You almost don't know when to stop yourself. Yeah, I think that is a danger and that is a possibility. What I've found over the years is that I've actually become more sensitive to the pain of others. I haven't become desensitised in the way that perhaps one might think the situation could

develop having seen more and more of these horrible things I've actually become more acutely sensitive to people other people's pain and you know as recently as as the COVID pandemic you know having covered wars and conflict for 25 odd years, all of a sudden COVID comes along. I'm talking to a woman who is having to deal with body after body after body in the morgue of a hospital. And she's got me in tears

and the cameraman in tears and the producer in tears. The four of us were gushing. I thought your reporting of covid though was extraordinary clive and i know you won an award for it i'm not the only person to say that but it's because you brought something of the tone of a war zone to our domestic tragedy and it was the right tone actually i i'm it's kind of you to say all that and it was interesting having covered wars and been in so many morgues around the world and seen so many dead bodies and yet we're in the middle of a of a of a horrible

situation the like of which we haven't seen for a hundred years since the flu epidemic and yet we're not talking to the people at the sharp end who are actually having to deal with the dead i mean at that stage i think it actually having to deal with the dead. I mean, at that stage, I think it must have been about 90,000 dead or maybe just over 100,000. That was more than the civilian dead in Britain in World War II. And yet we weren't talking to the gravediggers.

And I couldn't believe it. So I went to my producer, Sam. I said, look, I want to get into the hospital. I want to get into the morgue in the hospital. And I expected him to come back and say, it's not going to happen because I'd never seen it. So I went to my producer, Sam. I said, look, I want to get into the hospital. I want to get into the morgue in the hospital. And I expected him to come back and say it's not going to happen because I'd never seen it, right? I'd never, yet I'd been in morgues in Mexico with the drug gangs and morgues in Sarajevo. Yet for some reason, we were not reflecting that side of the story in our coverage. And there's a prudishness that Brits have about death and so on and so forth. I understood all that. But still, this is unprecedented. Once in 100 years, how is the morgue person dealing with this? So I said, we've got to get in the morgue, expecting him not to be

able to do it. He comes back within a day and says, yeah, the love used to go down. I said, really? They said, yeah. I said, but we've never seen it before. They said, because no one's ever asked. No one's ever asked. Can you believe that? Listening to you speak, I mean, your passion is obvious and it's compelling. Aren't you, I'm going to put this in the nicest possible way, aren't you bored just reading the news? I mean, you really are a reporter, aren't you? You want to be out there. Oh, no. There is, you know, people have to be comfortable in turning on the telly and inviting you into their home every night at 10 o'clock or 6 o'clock or 1 o'clock. And so there is a skill and there is an art to that. And I would never belittle that.

But at the same time, yes, I am a reporter. And what's fantastic about the situation I have at the moment at the BBC is that I can do both. And as long as I can continue to do both then I'm a happy bunny. Well, you're not just doing that. You've done your show about Italy. Yeah. And you're doing Mastermind. I mean, at the moment, if a question's asked at the BBC the answer is Clive Myrie.

Yeah, well, it's not a bad time to be in Clive. Clive Myrie or Amal Rajan. Well, you said that. I'm not allowed to say that. I love Amal. What are you talking about? No, we love Amal. What have you turned down?

Strictly, obviously. Yeah, strictly. I'm a celebrity. Yeah. Turn that down. I just don't know if you'd take me seriously with me in my Cuban heels, you know, a spangly shirt down to the navel,

hair protruding. Oh, I'd give it a whirl, Clive. Tight pants. You know, I spangly shirt down to the navel, hair protruding, tight pants. You know, I don't know if you'd take me seriously next time I was, you know, I don't know, in Ukraine or outside the White House. Oh, go on. All right, then. He'll do the Christmas one. That's it in translation. Just very, very quickly, you got personal on the night that Obama was elected, didn't you? Yeah, I did.

And I remember that. I remember seeing it and I remember thinking, oh, I wonder what they'll think about that back at BBC Towers. Yes, it's funny. Because you couldn't, I mean, you tell me, could you just not resist it? Was it simply too much for you? Was it the right thing to do or was it the wrong thing to do?

Oh, I mean, bottom line was I was in Morehouse College, historic black college in Atlanta, crucible of the civil rights movement. They just elected a black man to the White House in an area that had been segregated for 250 years. And I was overcome with emotion. And David Dimbleby on the election special, he came to me and he said clive paint a scene of what's going on and i did and then i said at the end of it i said i have to say david at this moment in history for me as a black man to be here here is just incredible clive mary thank you very much and i put that on the microphone i thought oh my god i've crossed the line i've

crossed the line i've put myself into the story we We're not supposed to do that. You know, it's not about us. It's about the people you're talking about. And then I put down the microphone. I looked over and I saw the network correspondent for ABC News. Great guy. And he was broadcasting live to, I don't know, 20, 30 million people. And he was live and he was in tears. Live on the telly.

And I thought thought I have not crossed any line at all no way and I did feel bad after I'd done it but after seeing Steve I thought that's probably one of the best things I did actually Clive Myrie and everything is everything is out tomorrow and Mystic Garve predicts it'll be a hit. What do you think? Well, he was saying, wasn't he, in the studio, that this is the belter week for publishing. September the 13th, 14th is key in the date, isn't it?

Because then you get the run-up to Christmas and everyone's back in the office and you come back from your holidays. So he is up against some very stiff competition. I mean, let's face it, our week, this week on the show, is dominated by exactly that publishing week. Laurie Stewart, Clive Myrie, and on Thursday, big old

Peston. Robert Peston's in. Yes, yes he is. He's 63. Is he now? Yes he is. Gosh, what's his secret? We'll ask tomorrow. Actually, we probably will, because it'll be Thursday by then. Sometimes I really, really, really want to chop his hair. Chop his hair?

Yeah. Yes, Jane, chop his hair. It's just a bit too unkempt for me, if I can be honest. And if he was in a different area of journalism, I might forgive him. You know, if he was doing a different area of journalism, I might forgive him. You know, if he was doing some kind of a food journalism, I think it would be okay. But for financial journalism and politics, Jane,

I don't think you should allow it to grow below your neckline. No, I mean, he's not far off man bun territory at times. Yeah. Okay, well, we'll have a good look at him tomorrow and we'll assess. Right, thank you very much indeed for being a part of whatever this is we're extremely grateful and we'll be back wherever you are and whenever suits you but shortly weirdo You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

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