Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Sounds more gynaecological than intended (with Jo Malone)

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

Welcome to this high-brow, award-nominated podcast (keep that in your mind's eye). Jane and Fi chat suspicious stains on sofas, bra extenders and potatoes in the air-fryer. Plus, business owner Jo Malone discusses her new BBC Maestro course 'Think Like an Entrepreneur'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

But it takes me back, in fact, Lisa, to a girl guide camp on the Isle of Man, where I regret to say it rained consistently for a week. But I still have extremely happy memories. Good. Keep at your stuff. This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fi is sponsored by John Lewis Money. Fi, is there anything you can't find at John Lewis? No. As well as all the great bedding, kitchen kits, beauty from brands that we all know

and love, you can pick up cosy cashmere Christmas decorations and even essentials for your pet. How about a new collar for Nancy? Well, and some sparkly pieces to wear to all those festive get-togethers. Well, quite. They even do money too, Jane. They really do have it all. At John Lewis Money, in-house experts and trusted partners work together to offer money products for real life. From the John Lewis Partnership credit card to insurance and travel money, they can help you think outside the bank. To find out more,

search John Lewis Partnership credit card. That's the spirit. Credit subject to status, 18 plus years, UK residents, TNCs apply. John Lewis PLC is a credit broker. New Day Limited is the lender. This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fee is sponsored by Norwegian Cruise Line. Have you ever thought of taking a cruise? Well, it's crossed my mind. Tell me a bit more about it.

Well, with Norwegian Cruise Line, you can travel to iconic locations across Northern Europe, the Mediterranean and the Greek Isles, unpacking only once and exploring multiple European destinations in one holiday. They offer exclusive go-local shore excursions as well as an immersive program of onboard experiences. I can't lie, I'm intrigued by up to 21 dining options on a single ship. Well Jane, their fleet has so many unique bars, lounges and restaurants. They also have fantastic entertainment, shows, facilities on board.

You wouldn't be short of things to do. Plan ahead to discover your dream Europe 2025 cruise. It's certainly one way to beat the winter blues. Experience more at sea with Norwegian Cruise Life. For more information call 0333 222 6513. Contact your travel agent or visit ncl.com. So when I came into work this morning I realised that I probably made a mistake in asking to change desks. I don't like it. I realised that I probably made a mistake in asking to change desks. I don't like it. Well, what are we going to do about it? Just ask to go back.

Ask to go back, but we'd have to, the people who've moved into our old desk will have to move. No, no, not all of us moving. Just that you and I have moved around on the desk area. And that doesn't suit you. I felt uncomfortable with it this morning. How are you feeling with it? I don't know, I've had a discombobulating day. I was just saying to the office who were enthralled that I took a wrong turning on the Underground and just ended up Russell Square. How can you take a wrong turning on a journey you do every day?

Well, that's why sometimes I vary my use of public transport. I'm still after two years trying to work out what's the most efficient way of getting in. And it does seem to, it does change. Anyway today I really thought I was, yeah I was, but I suppose I was on autopilot. I just took a wrong turning on London's perplexing underground public transport system and ended up in completely the wrong place. Couldn't find the other platform, I needed to go eastbound, I'd found myself going westbound and I just didn't want to be in Russell Square. I wish it well but it wasn't my destination of choice. I'm here now.

So, what with that and the desk change, I just don't know what to think. You are all over the shop. Absolutely. Well, my deepest sympathies because I find that kind of thing a little bit frightening actually sometimes when I've gone the wrong way. You know in the tube downstairs when it gets very, very busy, they change the contraflow. So I have ended up taking the tube the wrong way. And I've found myself, because I've got to do that slightly counterintuitive, really, really head miles out east.

You go back on yourself to go home, don't you? To go home. Whereas as the crow flies, it's actually north. So my internal compass, not my moral one, that's always strong. By the way, this podcast has been nominated for awards. It doesn't won any. In the past tense, it's currently not nominated. No, that's true. If we were men, we'd celebrate it more. I really sympathise, Jane, because you know that horrible moment when you look up and you think, I don't know where I am and I don't quite understand how I've got here

and then you've got to work your way back. I don't like it at all. In our younger years it wouldn't have bothered us, but you do I think get to that age where it becomes rather frightening and as with not understanding the plot of season two of The Diplomat you start to think is this the warning sign? Is it me? Is it me? And it might be as well. Well, and also it might be. But hopefully it isn't. I just want to say a big, big thank you to Glyn, who has dug up some of Clive James's best work on the subject of British television.

He was just the consummate. He was the observer, TV reviewer, wasn't he? Such a clever, clever, clever man, Clive James. So, so funny. Can you do a couple of paragraphs? Well, I just wonder if this is Glyn, and thank you, really I'm grateful to you. This is because we were talking to Larry Lam yesterday about his wonderful work Triangle, and actually Glyn has a Channel 5 alternative to that which he thinks we might enjoy, but he took us back to Clive James review of Ski Sunday and the stellar attractions are the commentator David Vine and Britain's lone downhill skier Conrad Bartelski

writes Clive James barely surviving one brave attempt after another Conrad is invariably referred to by David as Britain's sole representative the man with the Union Jack on his helmet Conrad Bartelski. At the downhill before last, held on some ferocious slope with a name like the Kankenschnit, Conrad's helmet was for a long time the only part of his equipment in contact with the snow. Yet, Conrad always manages, after he regains consciousness, to join David in the commentary box for an exchange of informed views about what the other skiers are doing wrong. I do remember that name and we were never any good

Britain, I mean understandably doesn't supply many of the world's greatest downhill skiers, but this bloke Bartelsky was a dogged competitor, it's fair to say. And anyway, Glyn just says if you're looking for a nautical TV adventure, you might well enjoy My Fives The Good Ship Murder. It's one of those cosy crime aboard capers set on a cruise ship, staffed by Shane Ward, not Wayne Short, Shane Ward, him off the X Factor, Claire Tildesley, her off Corrie, and Claire Sweeney, her off Brookie. There are a couple of other staff, including a doctor, who only ever does spa treatments and autopsies. Budgets were clearly quite tight. Likewise, there are only ever about six passengers on

this supposedly massive cruise ship, one of whom is invariably murdered in the first five minutes of each show. Shane Ward's character is an ex-copper who has made the entirely logical career change to ship cab racing, and he's usually invited by the local police to investigate. I'm thinking that in real life this probably doesn't happen so much since Brexit. It sounds fantastic. Glyn keep them coming. It does sound like a solid recommendation.

The good ship murder. Yeah. But perhaps you need your sea legs before you indulge. And I think Clive James published the best of his TV reviews, didn't he, in Bookform, which you can buy. He then took to writing much more serious poetry in his later years, didn't he? And I love that stage of his life and his work. But for me, it will always be, I think he did, he is the best exemplar of that kind of chat show host who took the mickey out of people without being too cruel that there's ever been. Because

sometimes I think those kind of chat show things are just very cruel, aren't they? But do you remember the tussles he used to get into with Sylvester Stallone's, Sly Stallone's mum? Jackie! he used to get into with Sylvester Stallone, Sly Stallone's mum, Jackie. She'd come on with a headband that was bigger than her head. I don't understand. Well, we need more of that. I'm assuming she's passed on. She has. And Clive would just talk to her, but do you know what, Jo, with a properly lovely twinkle in his eye. Yeah, yeah.

And she seemed to be very up for it too, although I don't think she was in on the whole joke. But it was just very, very funny. And he did that kind of, he drew our attention to the terrible Japanese game shows. Which are now, I mean, you see them every night. Yeah, it's the biggest TV game show in the world, isn't it? But they were doing it back in the 80s as well. He's much missed, isn't he? Yeah, I would say he absolutely was. Just somebody who made life that bit better. Can I just draw your attention please to Windlesham Village Infant School. Yes, your time has come. And you have. Naomi, the head teacher who champions colourful bright school coats has sent us what can only be described as a head teacher's

email because there are numbered points. The grammar is perfect and I love you for it. I'm here for it. So I'm just going to choose points 1, 2, 6 and 7 Naomi. Here we go. Many from Penge commented during the Olympics on how she hates seeing athletes pretend to bite their medals. I hear you sister. Number 2 home visits. When I first moved to Windlesham Village Infant School nearly 11 years ago, I asked my reception teacher about home visits. Did she find them useful or would she like to stop them? And she surprised me by asking to keep them. For her, they are the single most important thing she does to support each family starting school. It helps build a rapport with her first

meeting where the child and family feel safest in their own home. And we still do them to this day. The reception teacher, by the way, is called Miss Laura Leggatt, and I agree, it is a magnificent name. In at number six, Stirrup. You were talking about stirrup traditions for Christmas cakes and puddings. Lovely Miss Leggatt hosts Stirrup Assembly at the beginning of December each year.

She and a colleague dress up as Christmas puddings. Together we prep all of the ingredients to make a massive pudding. at the beginning of December each year. She and a colleague dress up as Christmas puddings. Together we prep all of the ingredients to make a massive pudding. During assembly she weaves a brilliant story of a prince on a quest to get home for Christmas, during which the audience, our pupils, add the ingredients and stir it all up. She holds us spellbound with her story, in-jokes, impromptu quiz and egg-cracking competition. At the end everybody stirs the mix and makes a wish. One of the many advantages of being a small infant school is being able to enjoy traditions

like this. It's why we stayed so long at the school. In at number seven, my sister, also a head teacher in Surrey, we are coming to see you at the Barbican. It's on a school night and we will be slightly giddy. Keep up the good work, tag you're it Naomi. Lovely email Naomi, what a fantastic, fantastic teacher Miss Leggett sounds because that's like a little pantomime that comes your way at the start of the Christmas season, isn't it? And what dedication she is obviously putting into her job. Come and say hello when you join us at the Barbican, our apologies, it's on a school night. We will try and keep it brief. Yes, yes. You'll be home and safe and sound by 9pm. Don't worry about it.

And the price of the tickets, don't worry, it will get you full hour and a half. Yes, special guest to be announced. TBA, is that right? It is, yeah. Yeah, okay. Thanks to Sophie from Sunbury who just says I'm grateful for the reminder about Art Garfunkel's breakaway album. I've been listening since yesterday and it's a lovely blast from the past. I think this is something that I wanged on about on the radio programme. Did you? Times Radio, Monday to Thursday. Two till four. Get the Times Radio app. It's free. and it has got some cracking songs when I

fall in love I will fall in love forever no when I fall in love it will be forever 99 miles from LA Sophie says is a great song I've been catching up with the pod as I'm so fed up slash depressed listening to all the news sometimes me and my wife fall asleep giggling to you both fall asleep do you indeed we turn off when Tramboe comes on. Right, okay. Well we'll move on from that. Sophie, thank you very much and try to stay awake. Actually you don't need to bother, you can always listen in the morning. Night night. And how fantastic to fall asleep on a giggle. Bra extenders coming in from Sylvia. These invaluable items keep me together.

I've got white ones, black ones and a pink one. Some are three hookers and some are two hookers. I move them from one bra to the other. Can we have more detail here? This is because your body shape changes depending on where you are in life or in the month or what is it? Shall I carry on? Yes, please do. It's not because of weight gain, Sylvia tells us.

I need them because bras don't cater for my broad back and shrinking cup size. It's not an elegant look, but at 86 who cares? By the way typing a double space puts an automatic full stop on my phone and iPad, the wonders of Apple and many. I go to sleep each night listening to your podcast, keep it up. So I think that's quite a good point, isn't it, because you can just make your bras last longer. If your back's getting bigger and you know I've spent at least several years at home just worrying about my back fat. Oh yes. Yeah no it does, it creeps up on you. It's almost impossible to see.

Well you can't see it. But the bra extenders would help and if you've got a shrinking cup size as well it just means that you can make your bras last a very long time. So good luck. So you can use Sylvia. Okay, yeah, no, listen, absolutely, Sylvia, you carry on being you. You do you. I can't stand that expression.

I've just used it. Your back gets broader, your cups get smaller. That's a given, is it? No, it's just what's happening in Sylvia's life. Oh, I see, okay, because I was going to say I think my back width has stayed more, anyway, look, is it? No, it's just what's happening in Sylvia's life. Oh, I see. OK, because I was going to say, I think my back width has stayed more... Anyway, look, who knows? Oh, by the way, I did get a call back from the cushion restuffing emporium. Did you? The one that I recommended?

Yes. You directed me to. And they're lovely. They're a family farm. He sounded very nice. He's just got to see a picture of the sofa. This is a very domestic incident. I have to say somebody at home has come clean about what happened to that sofa. Do you know they had the cheek to blame it on the cat and although yes she had had a tiny bout of diarrhea on a cushion it turned out that somebody else had done something.

I'm sorry if you're trying to get to sleep. Somebody else had done something more substantial on that sofa when I was, quote, away somewhere. Oh, right. Okay. Never drink. Never drink at all. Especially if you're young and inexperienced in drinking. Okay. And I'll be sending the bill for that cushion restuffing to the young woman concerned. Right. Let's hope they do get back to me because I've got very firm foam on the sofa cushions at the moment, which I inserted as an emergency, my thanks to the foam centre down at the market. But when people land on the sofa expecting one thing and then getting this very rigid bank of foam, which it's not a place you want to linger. Mind you that means my guest

leave early, which is no bad thing. Have you followed that? Yes, I know it's funny to say this but when I came to it, it's the purple sofa. When we did a photoshoot on that sofa, it's out-saucier than it is, don't worry. But I do, I remember the foam actually. It's very rigid isn't it? It is, yes. And I remember thinking, well this is a different sofa experience, but each to their own. Jane's from Crosby.

And now I know! It wasn't intended to be that way. Now I know. Okay, well I very much hope that King Upholstery can help. I've found them very, very useful. In fact they've kept one of my sofas going now for it's a 25 year old sofa. It's looking proud and glorious and they're just about to do it again. Are they? Okay when you say do it again what do you mean? Just totally recover it? So they're recovering it because the the pets have scratched quite a lot of the back of it away and also

for a while Pissing Barbara had installed herself on the cushion, so they need completely redoing because nothing can get rid of that smell. I'm so sorry, shall we move on? We've both got degrees, we like wide ranging conversations and I think we probably need to up our game. This is about Brasso. It comes from Lisa in Suffolk who says, I loved your girl, Guy Ditty on Brasso and it's prompted me to ask... Brasso? Look, you're from the North, I'm from the South. I'm not going to start doing funny A's just to sound in with the crowd. I don't think genuinely, I don't think it's called Brasso. If you call brass brass, then it's Brasso.

If you call brass brass, then it's brasso. Oh, I've never thought this through. What has happened to Goddards, I'm going to say that again, Goddards, how would you be saying that? Goddards. Goddards silver dip. I had a crusty jar which survived three house moves over a total of 25 years with an increasingly opaque diminished fluid content. Sadly, it is no more, but now I can't find a replacement please advise. Love your show which usually accompanies me on dog walks. Also like to reference Liverpool as it mentally takes me on part of my journey home to the Isle of Man. Keep up the good work, best wishes and thanks. Well Lisa could I

point you in the direction of Robert Dias? Do they stock though this silver dip? They do. Okay. They. They've got Godard silver dip. I saw it in a store only this weekend. Goodness me, well they know. Couldn't be clearer advice than that, Lisa. So I hope you enjoy your Brasso Brasso. What was the ditty I was singing was that one. No, not again.

It only costs six pence a tin. You can buy it on a gift from Woolies. There's only a widgie bit in. Very childish. But it takes me back, in fact, Lisa, to a girl guide camp on the Isle of Man, where I regret to say it rained consistently for a week. But I still have extremely happy memories.

Good. Keep your... Oh, Jesus. Jesus, so... In a very harsh world, that not something that I need to hear. I know but I've had quite a few of those I think. Those Jane over the years. Yeah they're good, they're all good.

Let's just have a brief section entitled Baked Potatoes. Okay. This is from Stefan Leeds. Baked spuds are wonderful in the airfryer. Now you've been trying to convert me to air fryers for some time. A bit of trial and error depending on the size of the potato and the power of appliances. But this is what I do, says Stefan. Prick the potatoes.

Microwave for between six and eight minutes on high. Transfer to air fryer for 20 minutes at 200 Celsius. Job done. Soft inside but with a crispy skin. Less than half an hour and no need for the oven to be on for ages. That's good. This is from another listener, Judith. I too have discovered baked potatoes and I cook them in my air fryer. Pricked potatoes, microwave for about 10 minutes, says Judith, then into air fryer, spraying with olive oil and air fry

for up to 15 minutes depending on size. Yummy. And this from Naomi, who's waiting for her daughter to come out of a singing lesson and like all good women is not wasting time. She's emailing us. Good for you. I'm with Jane on the scooped potato. Scoped out baked potato with egg, cheese and spring onion whipped up, pop under the grill. This is my dad's way of doing them when I was a child in the 80s and they are amazing. I'm not doubting that at all. It's just sometimes I just don't got the time to do that. I like to just do the mix once the baked potato has been made and not bother to put it back in the oven. Yes I know but sometimes you have to be patient.

No I find it very difficult to be patient. Okay. I'm so hungry by the time I get home Jane. I just want it done and that's my problem with the baked potato. Delayed gratification and potato form is just not doable at the moment. Well I get that. When I got home last night I was so hungry. I had not just a slice, the inevitable slice of cheese, but I had loads of spicy nuts. And then I had some scooped out hot and sweet jalapenos eaten with a teaspoon. Really nice.

Yeah. Almost certainly not very good for you, but they power through your system. And then I had a crusty bread with potato, with butter. Yeah. Not potato. No. That'd be wrong.

And that was before I started making tea. Well, you see, that's the problem, isn't it? But I've taken to just keeping all of my leftovers, even tiny bits of leftovers in the fridge, for exactly this need. It's the come home from work. I need to eat from the fridge for about five minutes before I can tackle anything. I want to hear from other people who are eating that hot and sweet jalapeno thing with a teaspoon. How do you feel about it?

Okay. There will be people out there who know what I mean. It's made by a company, I can't pronounce it, VAD-JUJ or something like that. Sounds a bit gynaecological. Sounds more gynaecological than I'd intended but trust me, good stuff. I wouldn't go looking that up kids, I'm just saying. How are you spelling VAD judge? VAD U S Z?

Okay. It's a premium product, it's very nice. Bright green. When it goes in. Now Rosamund, Dear Jane and Fiat, it was Sunday lunch potato peeling time. I came across a unique potato. I'm blushing but wanted to balance out your male genitalia, especially since female shaped veggies are rare in your album. Thank you very much indeed and don't feel sorry for sending it.

I learnt to type in the mid-60s and if I remember correctly, we left three spaces after the full stop to make it easier for those nice men to read our documents. Have a good sunshine week Rosamund. Three spaces after the full stop. That is just extraordinary. So there is quite a lot of correspondence, all really, really beautifully sent about the double spacing. And this one comes in from Carolyn who says, I'm happy to be the first signatory on your petition to reclaim the two spaces. I agree with you.

A nice gap makes a pleasant counterpoint in the text. And that's, I like it too, Caroline, I like it too. But I have to confess, I hadn't noticed that I wasn't needing to do it anymore. So it's one of those occasions where the modern world has overtaken me without me realising. So maybe I'm wrong to be quite so horrified by it. We had a little game with ChatGPT this morning, Jane. If you use ChatGPT...

My daughter was talking about using it last night because she needed to write a very specific email and so she asked for ChatGPT's assistance and I was horrified by its efficiency. It is remarkable. We asked it this morning to create a bedtime story featuring Nancy, a greyhound, an electric Skoda car and a man with tiny hands. Don't ask about this combination. It was born of a discussion about international world events. And it came up with a bedtime story that is so funny and so clever and has a twist at

the end of it, featuring a guy called Gary and a doomed ice cream shop. It is mind boggling. And the thing that I hadn't realised about it was quite how knowing the text is. So you believe that it is being written by somebody who's got a sense of humor Probably the same sense of humor as you they're taking the mick in all of the right places They've got all of the right cultural references. It is mind-boggling Jane. It was so so good I'm I'm horrified to hear just as I was horrified by what my daughter discovered which was very useful by the way to her But it's the humor if it can do humor then we're ruined aren't we? That's it, we're finished.

And somebody was saying also that when you then lift it out and ask it to actually, you know, to tell you the story, which you can do via another part of it, so it's talking to you, it's not just on the page, it will put in errs and ums as if it's having a conversation with you. So it's extraordinary and I can see more and more why people are so fearful. Not on that great big scale of, you know, it's going to take over all of the misinformation in the world and that kind of stuff. But I think it's just duping us into believing that our computers are sentient beings. And that is wrong wrong isn't it? It's wrong and sometimes I'm grateful to be my age rather than 15 or slightly older. Maybe they'll handle it better, maybe it's because it's going to be the biggest change

in our lifetime, we won't handle it well. God, well you were about to interview the winner of the Booker Prize. I don't know whether she wrote it herself. I mean, Samantha Harvey, she might have just tapped into GPT, write a nice story about 16 sunrises and sunsets around the world, being watched from the International Space Station, make it 124 pages long. Bing! Off it goes.

Could chat GPT come up with a Channel 5 nautical murder mystery series though. Probably is the answer. Probably, yes. I might bring in just a tiny bit of our bedtime story featuring Gary, Escoda and Nancy because it's just, it boggled my mind. Yeah, well I find it, thank you for telling us it. I kind of wish you hadn't. But I, because I happened to be using it or be in the company of someone using it last night.

It's been on my mind as well. Yes, you can send us a serious I mean, it's not all genitalia shaped wedge is it? I wish it was. So Jane and Fee at times dot radio. Let us know what you think and actually let us know if chat GPT has come to your rescue. I do know that teachers are using it and I understand why. And it probably is a huge time saver for you, but slightly eerie in some ways. Okay, let's move on. Let's mention someone who actually wrote the book. This is from Claire, regular correspondent in Southsea. Thank you for this, Claire. I'm really glad you mentioned Vera

Britton who is a good friend of Winifred Holtby, the author of the book you mentioned Southriding. Southriding is an inspirational story and it was filmed about 10 years ago with Anna Maxwell Martin and David Morrissey. Now I don't think I saw that but I'm going to try and find it because I bet that's brilliant. Growing up, says Claire, Vera Britton was a real hero to me. I consumed all her writing, especially her testament books. The 1979 BBC series Testament of Youth with Cheryl Campbell was at times a tough watch. The slaughter of her fiance, her brother, and her friends showed the futility of war how nobody ever really wins.

I remember that series so, so clearly. There is a film of Testament of Youth made a little bit more recently with, I think, Alicia Vikander in the lead role played back in the 70s by Sheryl Campbell and it's on the iPlayer. So if anybody has perhaps a younger person in the house who might benefit from watching Testament of Youth, it's so, so sad, but it is brilliant. And Vera Brittain's daughter, Claire reminds us, was of course Shirley Williams, the academic and the liberal politician. Strangely, she died the same time as my father, who was a lifelong Tory, and Prince Philip. We often laugh at the heated

arguments they must have had once through the pearly gates. No doubt Baroness Williams would be coming out on top. Yes, I'd like to think so and thank you very much for that Claire. Can I say a big hello to Liz Wood who has jogged our memory about Book Club apart from anything else. Just catching up on yesterday's contribution, enjoying the acknowledgement that Wolf Hall was a tough read, I too gave up. That conversation then made me think of Book Club. I loved reading The Trouble with Goats and Sheep and would not have picked it up if it hadn't been recommended. Have you discussed the book and have I missed it? Nope and nope. So we are going to do the Book Club next week. If you've got any thoughts about Joanna Cannon's novel The Trouble with Goats and

Sheep then bung us an email Jane and Fee at times.radio. I think it was an overwhelmingly popular choice but if you've got criticisms too it would be lovely to hear them. We've already done an interview with Joanna and she was really really lovely. We'll pop that into the middle of it and it is always nice to get together and chat through the book and then we'll start taking suggestions for a new one. So thank you Liz because we kept on forgetting in parish notices didn't we? Election, yeah there was just a lot of stuff going on Eve, yeah totally. Nobody's no hate no judgment as the kids would say. Oh no, absolutely not.

Thank you for telling us some of your memories of school domestic science. I still, what was the name of your school, what was it called? The something laboratory. The Home Economics Lab. The Home Economics Lab. Lots of people love that. Helen says, today I'm listening to your lovely podcast and you talked about the school cookery basket. Well, I just grabbed an apple from my fruit bowl and yes, it's the basket I used to use at my school Oldfield, the school for girls. I made lemon meringue pie and quiche which

had to travel seven miles home on the bus and I regret to say they did not travel well. I then went to work this is what she's actually basically just saying you I am your target audience that's the point Helen is making. I then went to start my working day with my water bottle we talked about that yesterday only to realize I've forgotten my glasses as I now need them to sew. We also talked about that yesterday. Thank you. I will repeat this forgetful action at least another 20 times today, but I may achieve the two litres consumption I'm told I should be aiming for. That's a lot, isn't it?

Two litres does seem like a lot. Do you remember how many glasses of water Giles Brandreth said he'd been told to drink in a day? Well, yes, it had gone from only having one glass of water a day to eight, hadn't he? Yeah. It was causing quite a lot of activity. Well, and it would. I mean, you're very welcome to this podcast, particularly if you remember the days before hydration. Susan says, one memory from my home economics class in the late 70s was making Spanish meatballs.

By the time I got home after a journey on the school bus, we sat down to eat a bowl of mince, or in today's language, deconstructed meatballs. I always think that's how you should think of mince. Deconstructed meatballs. I don't like the consistency of a meatball. I didn't much like mince. Back in the 70s, mince was a very, very dangerous place to go. But you know, do you know what I mean? It's slightly kind of, it's a bit foamy, as it takes us all the way back to your cushions. I don't think anyone wants to go back to my cushions.

No, I just, I like meat to have a little bit more of a crust on it. I find it very odd. I don't really understand the meatball thing. Well, the IKEA, you know, the IKEA meatball, they've opened a restaurant in East West Kensington very recently and it's been very favorably reviewed. So they do a vegan meatball as well, don't they? Which has an even stranger consistency. That is, and that's proper ball of sponge because I've been there and I've, I can say with some certainty. But I do like their vegan sausage rolls. We can't call them sausage rolls. What do they call them? Hot dogs? Rolls. But also we know a very difficult time for people who can't find taramasulata.

Very, very difficult thoughts and prayers. Absolutely. Thoughts and prayers. And why not take the opportunity to just go back in a slightly isolationist way to some really decent fish paste. Why not? Because you know what happens when you start embracing these continental foods? You end up disappointed and if you've taken to Turama Salata it's on your own head be it because you kind of get hold of it. This episode of Off Air is sponsored by the National Art Pass. Now Jane, there's nothing I like better than a trip to a gallery or a museum on a rainy afternoon. And let's be honest, we get quite a lot of those in the UK, don't we?

I do feel that looking at a bit of art is more than just kind of looking at a bit of art, if you know what I mean. I think it can really stay with you long after the visit, it kind of feeds the soul. Yeah, you're on to something something there because scientific research suggests that regularly looking at art could help you live longer, plus lots of other well-known benefits to boost your well-being and help reduce stress. So why not get a National Art Pass? It gives you free and half price entry at hundreds of museums and galleries and only costs £59.25 for an individual pass and there's a reduced price for under 30s and you can also purchase plus one and plus kids add-ons.

Free or half price entry and a chance of living longer, I am sold. The National Art Pass. See more, live more. Get your pass at artfund.org forward slash off air. Hello I'm Holly Mead and with me is Lucy Andrews and we are both from the Money Team at The Times and Sunday Times. And our new podcast is called Feel Better About Money. It's a safe place to talk positively about money and personal finance. Each week we will tackle a specific financial topic from managing debt, saving for a pension, buying a house or deciding whether to insure your cat or dog or goldfish.

Feel Better About Money is sponsored by Lloyds Readymade Investments. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider Flu-Celvax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine

authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at fluelvax.ca Jo Malone has had an incredible life. The family breadwinner by the age of 11, she left school at 13 and had to care for her mother who had a stroke.

Her father turned his hand to all kinds of things as you'll hear in this interview. There is nothing that the tiny Jo didn't know about rabbits coming out of hats. Jo went on to set up Jo Malone, a scent and beauty empire which she then sold to Estee Lauder in 1999 for squillions of millions of pounds but it wasn't the happiest of outcomes for her because she struggled to find her identity away from that work and she was also diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer in 2003. But she came back from all of that with her new brand, Jo Loves. There is something else in the pipeline which I do try and tease out of her here.

And she's a true believer in putting something back so she's part of the BBC Maestro series where you can learn from the best in many fields. And that is where we started our chat. I think we look at these, you know, the generations at the moment and they went through Covid. So and they were kind of, I mean, we were all trapped within four walls, but their education, their social kind of standing, all of these things, these children and this that generation, we do owe them something. And I'm a great believer in the entrepreneurial toolbox that we need, by the way, from age five upwards, not at the age of 18 when we finished our education.

And, but not everyone is academic, V, not everyone is going to pass all their exams, get into the university. So where does that leave all of that group of people of which I am one of them? Where did that leave me as a young child? So what I'm doing with this course with BBC Maestro is actually taking all that experience, all of those graze knees, all of those successes and saying nothing's wasted and if nothing is wasted what can we learn from this what can we build from this where are we going with it and how do we how do we find completeness in people so how do you think like an entrepreneur when have there been times in your own life when

you've realized that you are just thinking about things in a different way to other people in the room? Well I'm severely dyslexic and so I struggle telling the time sometimes. I'm left and my right. The only way I can tell is I'm blind in one eye. So if I wink at you it's because I'm trying to figure out the left and right. I'm disappointed Jo. Wink. Thinking like an entrepreneur is we are like a navigator. We're navigating different ways.

We're looking into different realms and we're not frightened to think differently because that's how we survive. And I think a lot of children, a lot of people who are on the spectrum, they don't have a disability at all, they just had the ability to think differently. And when you think differently, that's the way an entrepreneur thinks. Necessity is the mother of all invention, so the phrase goes. And actually,

that is really inherent in your life story, isn't it? That a lot of your entrepreneurship, it did come from a need to survive, didn't it? Your childhood, by comparison to many people's childhoods, was really tough, Jo. I didn't see it as tough. I just thought everybody lived that life. But now when I look back on it and I look at my son's life, which is completely different, just in one generation. So I was the sole breadwinner really from the age of 11 years old in our family.

I grew up in a council estate, two up, two down, never went to uni, college, never finished school, no qualifications, I haven't got any qualifications at all. But what I was taught was this entrepreneurial toolbox by my parents. And I would do the markets with my father on a Saturday and Sunday selling his paintings. I was the magician's assistant, so I know how people are sauning half and how white

doves appear from pans of fire and all of those things. Your dad was a member of the Magic Circle, wasn't he? So did he break the Magic Circle by telling his very young daughter? No, he never told me, but I watched. I was always, no, never ever told, broke the code of that. But I would sit there and watch and I would work it out. And he was also a great artist and he was also a great poker player, gambler. And he taught me what he did teach me. I don't know whether this is breaking the poker law or something, but he did teach me, I don't know whether this is a breaking the poker law or something,

but he did teach me to read marked cards at the age of seven, eight, and I had very long hair and I would stand in the corner of the room and I would twiddle my hair if I knew someone had a full house and so he would always win. Right, okay. You're never allowed on Celebrity Who Wants to Be a millionaire. With those kind of tricks. No, do you know something? I've never gambled in my life, never gambled, never... I saw that was the one thing, the brick that came out of the wall that could pull all of our family down and in fact it did. You then decided later in life when you're a little bit older that you wanted to make things, didn't you?

So talk us through when you're around the kitchen table, you've got your jugs of things that smell and lotions and potions and all of that. How old were you then? And when did you think actually, I do have it inside me to turn this into a business, a way to make money? Honestly and truly I think that came when I was much younger because it was up to me to put food on the table from the age of 11. My mum had taught me how to make face creams, so I knew that that was a means.

But it wasn't, there was no strategy, there was no business. It was just like, if I make that and I make it for a pound and I sell it for three pounds, there's two pounds to pay the bills. So this young kid, you know, when I think about it, where on earth were social services? I don't even remember them even knocking on our door. I can't remember once where I was told I had to go back to school or something. And I was just one of those kids

that fell through the cracks, but who survived. Survived on that instinct, I suppose, and that inspiration of what I'd seen. And I desperately wanted to crawl out of that poverty. I didn't want to grow up. I remember sitting in my bedroom window and scratching the window pane with the ice and thinking I have to get myself out of this. I can't live like this forever

So when was the first time that you really? Brought in proper money from the face creams and the beauty 1112 my mom had had a breakdown and She just sat in a chair and rocked herself backwards and forwards. I put my sister through school and but I look back on that. I don't, I'm not angry with anyone.

I don't feel let down by anyone because nothing is wasted in your life. This is, this is one of the big keys to the course, the BBC Maestro course. Nothing is wasted. So it doesn't matter where you come from, what your upbringing, good and bad, you can use that for good in order to fulfill your dream. So yeah, from the age of 11. And I sometimes still feel like that little girl. And that's going to be so important in a world of jobs that we can't even imagine, can we? Because AI will, and already has, crept towards the job market, taken so many things away. And it's a very

squeaky chair. I do apologize. It's not Joe, kids. It's a chair. But we need to focus on the individual creativity, don't we? Because that is the thing that AI won't be able to replicate. Not yet, not yet. I think AI is one of the most exciting chapters of our life. You know like building a business and we have chat GBT, we have Dali which is the most I just I've just found Dali it's like oh my goodness this is so amazing you, you can put in and say, I'd like an image of a purple jasmine tree on the edge of a river, mountains, clouds coming over, and under 10 seconds it will create it and deliver it. I mean, we never had that at our fingertips.

And I think it's unbelievably exciting, but it's playing, you know, we have got to keep ahead of the game. We've got to be masters and in charge of our own ship. And in that, but people are not trained and not equipped to use their own bank account of creativity. So I believe that everybody has a bank account

and it's full of a creative currency. And if you don't use it, it's never gonna go up in value. No one else can access it. But that creativity can fulfill your dreams. It can make you feel more confident and it can make you a happier person. So that creativity and your question about AI, we have to keep

ahead of the game and in order to do that we need to use our imagination. We need to become the child almost again in us because children dream. So you know what are your dreams? What are my dreams? And our dreams belong to us but we're the only person that can make those dreams happen. And actually the tools that we have now, which are free of charge, are amazing. Will AI ever be able to create sense in the way that you have been able to create sense? It can already.

Can it? It can already, yep. So for many years, we've used, like in factories, when you're mass producing compounds, you have these incredible robots, machines, but a lot of it is technology that has gone way beyond. But I do think, yeah, you can do it now. You and I could sit and we could formulate something together

and we could ask for spring-like cologne with pear blossom, a little bit of vanilla in it, a little bit of sandalwood. And it would come up with a formulation and then we have to go and prepare it. And then, but the trick of the whole thing is where do you take it from there? And that's where you need your imagination. And is there a combination of scents

that has yet to be created? Has everything been done? Is there a smell out there that humans are yet to smell? I suppose that's impossible to know, isn't it? No, it's not impossible but it's a never-ending... I mean what? Because we all... when we smell something our interpretation is different with everyone. When we smell something, our interpretation is different with everyone. So if I smelt a lemon that was sitting on a barbecue, I would probably smell Earl Grey, charcoal, vetiver. You would smell something completely different. So we're talking about the unknown and a realm that is yet to be kind of discovered. I mean, some of the notes that we use

come from the top of the canopy in the Amazon rainforest, like a blossom, a lotus blossom, right at the top of the canopy. And just after it's rained, what does that smell like? And so we have these like trampolines that sit on the top of, when I say we, not me personally, but fragrance houses we work with. And you can sit on the top of, when I say we, not me personally, but fragrance houses we work with, and you can sit on the trampoline and you take these globes, put them over the

head space of the flower and we can absolutely extract the chemical formulation of that just through the smell. I mean it is amazing the things that we can do and the way an elephant will smell us and a dog will smell us will be completely different. So I think there is, for me it is a banquet of the unknown which is I want to sit at the table at the banquet of the unknown and be part of that creativity. Jo, I want that job where you go and sit on a trampoline with a dome. Oh no, it's quite dangerous, the snakes up there. Oh, okay, right, I don't want that job at all. I don't think you do.

You've got a form of synesthesia as well, haven't you? Can you explain what that means? So my dyslexia, I have a very large hippocampus, which when someone said that to me once, I thought it meant something completely different and was I more attractive? But apparently it's your primeval part of your brain. So I see colour and I can smell immediately. So there's a lot of colour going on in this room at the minute. And the purple is really affecting the things I'm saying. But I'm seeing your dress, which is an orangey red. So I'm smelling the sun setting in Dubai. I can smell oud.

I can smell the skin of a mandarin, I can smell the seed of a, what's the fruit, guava fruit, and I can smell a very very smooth like oceanic salty smell which is where the purple is coming from. Wow. So does that ever... Can you not smell it? No I can't. I couldn't smell. Chemical disinfectant. Does that ever become overwhelming? No, because I've lived with it all my life. After chemotherapy, I did a year's chemotherapy, my sense of smell disappeared for about six months and then it came back one day. And when it came back it was very, very different. It's very raw now, my sense of smell, as in I can smell, like if there was a flood in this building, I would be able to smell it in here.

I would be able to smell wet walls. If the dog is sick, I can just walk past the dog and say the dog needs to go to the vet's. I can smell, I smelled when my husband was sick on his neck. So I can smell underneath everything everything if that makes any sense and that enables me to to really look like a microscope and I'm able to magnify all of these notes and bring it to life. Breast cancer must be terrifying enough but when it takes away from you something that's so integral to what you do and who you are, that must have been extremely frightening.

Well, I was fighting for my life and so losing my sense of smell was the price I had to pay if that meant I could stay alive and raise my son. It was a really tough, tough time. You know, I was 38 years old, diagnosed, given nine months to live. My son was just three years old at the time. But I fought cancer in the same way I built a business. And when I say that, people go, what on earth do you mean by that? The same tenacity, the same resilience, the same passion to live every day.

And I love life. I love every single day, good and bad. I love life and I will fight to the ends for every single minute. But chemo was very tough. I was very, very sick during that time. I was in intensive care or had to go into hospital every seven days because I was one of the first women to take chemo every five days. So it's what's called dose density.

And it was gruelling. Yeah, really, really gruelling. But I got to the end, and, you know, it had taken my hair, half my body, a lot of my sense of smell. But I was alive, and the cancer had gone. And I just couldn't wait to get back to life. But of course not having a sense of smell was why I had to leave Jo Malone, London.

Because I couldn't stay as part of a global brand, which was fragrance, and I couldn't smell. So that's why I left. It was one of the reasons I left. And then a month after leaving the business business I woke up one morning and my smell had come back overnight. I said Gary have you opened the fridge door there's something and we I was three floors up and I could smell the fridge door opened and then I smelt something else and I thought oh my goodness it's come back overnight now what am I really going to do? And that's when depression hit in and anxiety. Why?

Because I'd lost my identity. I'd lost the person. My identity is caught up with what I create. It's not a job to me or a business. And I was half of Joe. So I'd fought cancer. I'd survived. And I just didn't know who I was.

And I had a five-year lockout. Rightly so, I'd sold a business, but I wasn't able to create. I wasn't able to do anything with it. And so I just lost who Jo was. I fell down this really deep hole, and I scrabbled to get out, and I just knew at the end of that five years if I didn't try again I would stay in that dark hole and I had to regardless of the pitfalls that lay ahead of me I had to try again. And you did try again and it's worked out and

I've also got here on my research notes a little thing that says there might be something else that's about to come for you but you might not want to talk about it. Can't talk about that one just yet. I have, I took a big life changing decision three years ago and I went to live in another country. I wanted to see what the five senses of Joe were, So that's where it's connected. Did Joe have another four senses or five senses? And I went to live in Dubai. And I overlook, I have what I call my blue office.

I overlook the water and I create using the five senses. And now three years on, we have 13 projects of which BBC Maestro, who was the first one to be ticked. And so I look at this one as sound. Because I'm teaching. Right. I'm with you. But yeah, I I've just found this entrepreneurial new life. I feel like I'm having my gap year as an entrepreneur thinking, what else could I do?

What else can I give? What else can I build? Who else can I inspire? And I'm probably the happiest I've ever been in my life right now. Is this the right country to be an entrepreneur in? What a nice question that is. Yes, I think it is. I think any country. I think if ever there was a time for a movement of entrepreneurs, we need it now, definitely. I feel a little reluctant making a comment in a country I don't live in anymore. But without entrepreneurs and new businesses,

where are we going to be? Who are we going to be? We need these new ideas, we need these things coming in. And I think we have to support new businesses. I've just done a phone-in with people coming in with all their ideas for new entrepreneurial businesses and a lot of women who are going back to work for the first time after raising families and their hobby has suddenly become a business. Now, let's not undermine that. Let's look at that and she maybe or he maybe has got the potential to be one of the great brands of the future.

But we'll never know that. 30 to 40 percent fail in the first year. Why do you think that is? Well, I wouldn't know because I work for the man. I'm not an entrepreneur, but you know, I don't I absolutely hear you when you say that you don't live here But I'll ask you for a comment just because of your business expertise other entrepreneurs have said that actually the latest budget in particular and

perhaps this government are Not doing the right things to encourage that kind of small business spirit that you know a lot of people believe lies at the backbone of the UK. I believe that. And would you agree with that? I believe absolutely entrepreneurs, small businesses, SMEs, SMEs employing because you know a lot of these small businesses employ, it might be a hairdresser or a plumber, they employ five, six people, it's a job. And we need an environment,

or people need an environment to thrive. Why in Dubai are people moving there? Like there's no tomorrow young, creatives, like, I mean, I've never seen such a movement in that world because there's opportunity because we need opportunity. There's no point saying, well, we need businesses of the future and you've got to build them.

You've got to be with them from the beginning and help them build and be in an environment. And 30, 40% fail because they're unequipped. That's why. They don't know. They all think that if you start something, you've got to have a shop first of all they can't think out of the box because Often you're the managing director. You're the operationals manager PR marketing doing the product

education you're doing everything as a one-man band and That is kind of quite wearing so We need to support those businesses. We need to see for the future, for future jobs and future revenues in tax, we need to see those businesses being supported and taken on to the next stage. But that doesn't happen when we're 2030. That process should be taught in schools. That's where we come all the way back to and yes I do come back to number 10 every single time regardless of who's

in power. We should be teaching entrepreneurialism in the national curriculum, full stop. And if you were the younger Jo now would you think that you could stay in this country and do it all here? Yes, of course I do. Yeah, I didn't move because there was no opportunity for me. I moved because I wanted a venture. And I'm 60 years old, I'm 61 years old today. You're looking good.

I know, but I'm 61 and it's like I can't sit there and wait for it to knock on my door. I've got to go find it. So it wasn't anything to do with, no, there's no opportunity. But we've got to start looking at things differently. And I'm sorry, if you're a small business, who want that money back in your pocket? You want that so that you can reinvest that and do that. And yeah, I have lots of ideas that perhaps now is not the time

to view all of them, but they would be a very different way of running a government. I'm not going into politics view all of them, but they would be a very different way of running a government. I'm not going into politics by the way, ever, but it would be a very different way of looking at solutions for some of these things. But it would start with education in the state system and equipping our children with a different mindset. Were you ever the kind of young person who would have wanted to be taught to be entrepreneurial? Isn't that the ultimate kind of dilemma that the entrepreneurial spirit is something that maybe sometimes resists somebody else saying you can do it this way, that you know this is my kind

of helping hand? I don't think that's what being an entrepreneur is at all. What it's doing is it's freeing your mind up to think differently. It's freeing you to say, it's okay if you didn't get all your exams in university and you didn't get to the university or you haven't even got to university. It's okay.

What are your dreams still? Tell me what your dreams are. And I think it's our responsibility as an older generation with a baton in our hand to say, I believe in you. I believe in what you want to achieve. And how do we make that happen for you? How do we take you? It's not about getting you to think like me. It's about me teaching you how to free yourself and your mind from thinking in a different fashion. Not everyone is going to go off and build a business, but you'll go and you'll get a job. How do you run your team in the job that you're in? How do you raise your children

when you're a young mum and a young dad and you've got this new business? How do we afford your children around the kitchen table? It's all of these like little hacks. How do you convert a whole city with a hundred pounds for everybody to see your brand and you've got one month to open? It's called Walking the Dogs. Walking the Dogs is something we did in New York City many, many years ago and it was Gary's idea and And he said to me, okay, we open in October in Bergdorf-Gubben, you've got to convert people and get PR marketing. And he said, how much money do we have? He said, nothing.

It was like, product, that's it. And he was sitting in a hotel room packing up empty bags. And he was putting the ribbon around the top. I said, what are you doing? So he said, packing up bags. I said was putting the ribbon around the top. I said, what are you doing? So he said, packing up bags. I said, but there's nothing in them. He went, no one else knows that. And we employed 20 people to walk up and down Fifth Avenue

for a month to six weeks, holding 20, 30 bags each. And by the time we opened those doors, everybody thought the brand was probably one of the most successful brands and we converted it by walking the dogs with empty bags. So there's lots of those stories and tricks and hacks of how you do it. Jo Malone and if you want to learn from her wisdom to sit at the feet of her expertise you can do that as part of her BBC Maestro series. And I would just recommend tapping into that, even if you don't think that you've got

anything in common with a woman who has made her life out of sense and lifestyle stuff. Just because nowadays, you do have to side hustle and have a couple of things on the go, especially if you're the young people, don't you? So learning that kind of entrepreneurial spirit I think has never been so important. I really love meeting her, I think she's a great woman, Jane, great, great woman. Well, all hail to Jo Malone and we'll have another interesting guest on the podcast tomorrow. We will, we actually we really will because tomorrow we're going to talk to Professor Irene Higginson who is one of

the leading experts on palliative care in this country so we're going to talk about the relevance of that to the assisted dying bill but also I saw her give a lecture a couple of weeks ago about palliative care and the way that she explained it was so brilliant Jane and the you know the the changing demographic and what that means and what we haven't yet learned to do in terms of preparing for so many people in the population needing palliative care. I found it really fascinating and she's one of those women who just really really really really knows her stuff and delivers it with ease as well.

So we're looking forward to that and I know that many of you will find it relevant as well to your lives so we'd love some correspondence on the topic. Yes and actually in some ways it's a good thing she's on a Thursday so people can respond over the weekend and then we can look at some of those responses next week in the podcast. Because I think the assisted dying bill that's going through our UK Parliament has provided an opportunity for everybody to have a conversation about their own end of life wishes and it's been really interesting. Some of the people who I know the best have surprised me with what their wishes are and so I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to talk about

it because we don't talk about it enough at all do we? No we don't and it's almost like we think we won't be dying but we will be. We will. Yeah and it would be good to have I imagine some control over it but I think I said to you yesterday I just genuinely I put my hands up saying I just don't know what I think I still don't know so I'd be very interested to hear that interview tomorrow. Right. And you'll be able to hear it too. It is Jane and Fee at times.radio. Talk soon.

Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is

nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider Flu-Celvax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucelvax.ca.