Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Sporting his massive pantaloons (with Louise Minchin)

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

Jane and Fi make many requests from you in this episode so please grab a pen and paper... They cover moving circus dentists, getting ID'd, menopause, nightmares and the VP debate - to name a few! Also, broadcaster Louise Minchin stops by to discuss her debut novel 'Isolation Island'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I like that look very much but now he's wearing these great big kind of blow-up, I mean they're kind of like clown pants. Show us your figure Daniel. Show us your legs. I don't know, how are you today? All right, yes. Obviously it's like Christmas Eve for the very middle-aged today because it's the Premium Bond prize day. 25 quid. I used to, what did I do for excitement back in the day? I don't know, it's been a while.

I just used to wait for smash hits to come round I think but now my idea of bliss is to check the price checker in pay on the day the premium bond results are announced. Anyway other people will be able to relate to that it is something wonderful. Yes it'll go towards the root canal. That feels like a sort of justice you know I've suffered a little bit I've got a little bit back that's good., well I've just shot my pen lid across the studio, this is from Grace, long time listener, second time contributor, maybe first time being read out, you've hit the jackpot, a little bit like I did early this morning Grace. Grace says, my great great grandad was a train driver back in the day in Ireland, as many were back then, he was illiterate and he signed his name with an X, which in itself makes you not take education

for granted. On the topic of dentistry, he had all of his teeth removed in one go after having downed an entire bottle of whisky and then he had them whisked out at the local fun fair where the dentist was working. Isn't that hygienic? Yes, Grace, that doesn't entirely surprise me that dentists would travel around with the fair. Sort of makes sense, doesn't it? I don't know, does it? Well, it made sense back then. We are talking, I don't know how old Grace is, but we're talking about her great-great-grandad.

So this could be the late 19th century. Yes, the century before the last century. Exactly. So I'm not that surprised to hear that dentists plied their trade at the fair. So I'm just wondering though, because I'm automatically thinking maybe they weren't proper dentists, so you were more likely to be offering the service of just whacking people's teeth at. Oh yeah, I don't think there were any dentists. No, as part of a fairground attraction.

It was just something that the guy on the coconut shy would do. Do you think they used the same tools? Would that have been the similarity? I am hoping that they would at least dip the tools in alcohol before they rinsed the teeth out. But I suppose, I mean, serious point, if you're part of a travelling fairground, the likelihood that somebody is going to be able to catch up with you in the neighbouring market town, two weeks down the line, who's had a bad kind of time of it with you is minimal, isn't it? It's much better than having a confirmed premises on the high street.

Completely different kettle of fish. Yeah, you can just move around. Gob full of nashers. And I suspect that we're talking about a time when perhaps public transport wasn't all that reliable in much of Ireland. So yeah, you're right, the dentist was completely long gone. Beaten the path out of town with their pliers. There's been a lot of stuff about the menopause around this week, Jane. Do you think we should give it a little bit of a reference? Well, can I just read out?

This is an anonymous email from a woman who I'm going to say, well she just says herself, she's in the very firm grip of the menopause right now. Ladies, I just feel ashamed to say I've been prescribed surgical stockings for my achy legs. However, I'm trying to get over the shock of being charged for two items on the prescription, so I had to pay for each stocking. Surely she says this can't be right. I did question the woman in boots who replied, do you want them or not? Right, so I put the bloody things into my Jane and Fee tote bag and off I went.

Then I went to buy a new veg peeler. Yes, it's an exciting life I lead, and I was told they're classed as a weapon and the young girl on the till had to get the manager. I did point out, even in the grips of menopause that I'd never considered veg peeling someone to death. No. The world has gone mad, says our anonymous contributor. I don't want people knowing under my jeans that the surgical stockings lurk.

I'm only 55 for fuck's sake, she says. No shame in a surgical stocking. In fact, they have cropped up on this podcast before. Do you know what, I'm surprised at having to pay, she had to pay two prescription charges. It doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem right at all. So that's 30 quid. Yeah.

So I can understand why you'd sell surgical stockings singly, but if you've been prescribed surgical stockings, I mean that would be like having to pay for every single blister pack of your medicine. And you don't have to do that, do you? You just get a prescription. And because sometimes I've got a repeat prescription of something. And so sometimes I'll be able to get three packs of it on one prescription. I'm not having to pay three prescription charges. I would go back and inquire. Do you know, I don't know. I wonder whether not every chemist is adhering to the same rules. They certainly should.

Yeah. I would go back, anonymous, and just ask about that because if you have two legs, you're going to need two surgical stockings. Yeah, and if the prescription is just for one thing that's wrong with you, but it's in two limbs, that does seem a little bit harsh. Yeah, I think you had a tough time there. And I do, I mean that is, that is health and safety gone a little bit do lally-tap when you have to get the manager to buy a vegetable peeler. It is, but I do worry, I worry about the knives so I can fully understand that somebody's just trying to be sensible. But I don't think there's a chance that you look under 18 if you're 55 and I don't want to cast any aspersions on you there.

But I'm thinking, you know when a lovely chap, and sometimes this happens at the M&S in Dalston, where the lovely chap will come over when the beeper's gone off because I need to prove my age. Oh, alcohol. Yeah, and he'll say, come on, I do need to see it. You're looking good today. And there's a little bit of you that falls for it every time. It's just, it's really... It's tragic, isn't it?

No, it's lovely. I admire him for his persistence in doing it because it always makes me giggle. It always is life enhancing when the air steward asks if I'm going away with my sister when it's one of the kids. They laugh, I laugh and it just makes the day a little bit brighter. Exactly. So I'm not knocking it. Exactly. So the menopause stuff that's around at the moment follows on from a panorama investigation done by Kirsty Walk and it was looking at in particular one private clinic dispensing very very high doses of

oestrogen to women on the basis of not particularly thorough examinations actually, an awful lot of the appointments online and they aren't necessarily accompanied by blood tests and follow-ups and actually there were some really worrying stories in the programme, particularly about cancer survivors who have been prescribed medication that I'd always assumed was out of bounds to you for at least some considerable time whilst you're in remission. So it's available there on the other place if you want to go and watch the documentary. But I thought it did raise some really fantastic points, Jane, just about how many women become

so desperate and don't have their symptoms alleviated in any sense by the first port of call in the medical profession. So that's going to be your GP most of the time, that they are turning to these private clinics who just, it also amazed me, and I'm sorry this is a really thick thing to say, I didn't realize in a private clinic that you're kind of, you're able to not take notice of the guidelines. I just assumed it didn't really matter. So that's like the Wild West of prescribing, is it? So there are nice guidelines about levels of HRT that can be prescribed and they are adhered to by GPs. And I'm putting this out there because I may have misinterpreted what

was said in the documentary, but it seemed to suggest that in a private clinic it was a bit wild-worse but I would have thought that guidelines were guidelines whether or not you paid at the point of use so I don't really understand that and I would welcome people putting me straight on that if I've got that completely wrong but also how can we still be in this mess Jane how can we still be in this mess where where there has been so little care and attention for women going through the menopause that we have ended up in a right old pickle where we as the patients are fumbling around in the dark still. It's just dreadful.

Well, I mean, I suppose it needs to be said to even think of going to a private doctor here, you need to have a few quid, probably more than a few quid to even get an appointment. And then you'd have to pay on top. I'm absolutely certain of that. So it used to be said, didn't it, that GPs were very poorly schooled in the menopause. And in fact, it was sort of optional thing that you could dip into if you were a bit interested. But on the whole, GPs didn't know a lot. And general practitioner, I'm nowhere near capable or clever enough to even have vaguely contemplated a career as a GP, so I'm not knocking them. They can't know everything about everything. But I do

think it used to be scandalous, the level of ignorance amongst many doctors about what women went through in middle age. But also, I'm really conscious that some women don't go through very much at all. And there are people like myself who have been helped by... I'm still on HRT and I find it helpful. And I've never... I wouldn't say I'd suffered. I would say HRT has absolutely helped me to ride out this period of time. Yeah, but there isn't really... I can't think of another area of medicine where you'd use the same argument, where you'd say well we don't

really need to know very much about joint pain because lots of people go through their whole life without joint pain. You just don't use that argument, do you? No, I just think that doctors on the whole, when I've consulted a GP, I've had very very nice interactions with middle-aged men who are broadly sympathetic, this is talking about the menopause, partly because they probably have a partner who's similarly afflicted or not very much as in my case but nevertheless needing something to get them over the hump, but also I've had consultations with youngish women who freely admit they don't know anything

about it, they just don't know anything about it. That has been my experience, actually. But the other way around, I've had good interactions with women my own age and post-menopausal. And actually the first GP who prescribed something for me, which was I think about the seventh visit to a GP, was a woman who had been through the menopause and she was so fantastic. It was one of those proper liberating conversations where suddenly it was just like, oh thank God. And I do remember her saying to me as well, she said, oh, you've got so much to look forward to. She said, I can remember the time when I was still packing for holidays, a whole suitcase full of extra pads and extra bits and pieces and trying to plan my holiday

on certain dates to avoid going on holiday when I was having a period and she said and then it just all goes. It just all goes, it's really fantastic and I was so grateful to have saying that because sometimes you feel that you're just stuck in this dark kind of place forever but actually my experience of younger male GPs was just, I was just embarrassed for myself because there was just so, so little understanding of the connection of symptoms actually, the fact that your brain fog and your joint aches and horrendous kind of final couple of periods, which really can render an awful lot of women, including myself, sometimes housebound. We just met with a kind of oh, I mean, that was just literally

kind of like, oh, right. It doesn't hurt to stay in for a week or two, does it? Yes, you managed to get here love, what's wrong with you? So I don't want to open the floodgates of our email inbox to every single menopausal difficulty. I don't want to open the floodgates of our email inbox to every single menopausal difficulty, but I think there's something at the moment that that program has really unleashed. There's news today that women are just having to leave work because their symptoms are so debilitating that they're just not able to function.

And that can be perimenopausal and menopausal women. So bear in mind, this is now something we talk about. Go back 50 years, no one was talking about it. I think go back 10 years. I don't think 50 years, I think 10 years. I was doing phone-ins on the medical. Well I know but you were in a specialist area. I do think actually to be fair to women's heritage I'm always very defensive about, it's always talked about it. I mean and the information is still there on BBC sounds,

you can find it all, but I always thought we were slightly preaching to the choir. Yes. And so you wouldn't have had any other programme across the day on Radio 4 that would have mentioned the menopause. No, no, no. Because it was embarrassing. As you said earlier, basically it was effectively heralding the end of times. So it wasn't something we really wanted to dwell on. But you know, if you're fortunate you can live 35 years after the menopause. It's not the end, it really isn't. The other thing that I did want to say is just I have a huge sympathy with any other woman who watched the Panorama documentary and then started googling what your prescription should be and what the balance between estrogen and progesterone should be.

It's really confusing because it's MCG's versus milligrams, it's times of day, it's all those kind of things and that to me just I would really really like some very very simple explanation about that because there was a running tab along the program as well that kept on saying don't just suddenly stop taking your medication but I bet lots of women have. So if anyone has got some thoughtful insight into that, you know, with a medical background, then we would hugely appreciate it. Yes. And but if you're not at a menopause yet, don't be too fearful because, you know, it might not be that bad. It really might not be. Julia is in Brisbane. I'd like some advice from you and your listeners. Well you never want advice from us but she does say and this sounds horrible she's

experiencing nightly nightmares, horribly vivid and if she wakes up she says I seem to pick up later in the night where they left off. I'm almost afraid to go to bed. I don't eat before going to bed. I don't drink coffee or alcohol. And I do try to listen to something soothing as I fall asleep. I have had some major work stress, which should should resolve itself in about three months. That's quite a long time to wait, isn't it? And she says there's nothing I can do about it right now. I would like to hear from you and other off air listeners. How have you coped in similar situations? I haven't had that experience of nightly nightmares, I have funny dreams, but that's not the same.

So I'm really sorry to hear that, Julia, and I'm sorry as well to hear that you have to wait quite a few months for your work situation to be resolved. But it doesn't sound as though you're doing anything wrong either, not drinking before she goes to bed, so it's not that. It's just her subconscious in an absolute whirl. Well, I'm sure that our listeners will have lots of good advice. I do think sometimes just playing something very low level in the background, if it doesn't prevent you from going to sleep, is incredibly helpful. Because I think sometimes your kind of drifting mind can pick up so when I've had patches of insomnia that have been frightening because they go on you know far too long then actually leaving the radio on overnight did

definitely help because I know that my mind then when it did kind of drift into sleep it was just hearing something so it was not news radio not at the moment no news right at the moment wouldn't do it at all. So I put on an incredibly comforting audio book on a very low level and do all your nice smelly things and stuff. But the nightmare thing is so tricky as well, isn't it? If you're then going back into the same dream, because you know that feeling when you're in a horrible nightmare but you you do know you can haul yourself out of it how terrifying

to then think well I'm gonna fall asleep and I'll be straight back in Julia we definitely we will send help we will send help we'll send help to your subconscious yeah and you could always have Nancy in bed with you because somehow she definitely aids my sleep. Right, this one is jobs at 22. Thought you might like to know that the files you carefully clipped and filed didn't get dumped one day. The next generation of 22 year olds were employed to scan them all in. This was my job in a bank. Scan. Link to the accounts on the computer. Repeat. Et cetera. Dull.

And as it was a bank, no headphones or entertainment were allowed on the floor. Dull. And as it was a bank no headphones or entertainment were allowed on the floor, no phones. Not sure if the next generation had to tidy up all our record-keeping in some way too. That's Laura in Edinburgh. So I'm so sorry about that. That's dull isn't it? And also no headphones or entertainment. That's a new phenomena isn't it, where you are able to take your own entertainment into your workplace. Very much so because it never used to be the case. No, you used to have to talk to your colleagues. God, it was really tough back in the day, kids.

It really was. If you're looking for a silly gift for Christmas, we have a listener here who claims their name is Frankie Organ, who wanted to tell us about a Christmas stocking filler. They recommended it's a book called Potty, Fart, Well and Knob. And it's just about silly names. There certainly are some silly names that she's picked here. Willie Longcock, I don't believe he ever existed. George Long Dong. Dick Brick and Fanny Funt Okay, if you claim they existed who knows I

Know we need to try and move away from dental work But I do love this idea from a listener who is staying currently get this at a hotel in Lone Tree, Colorado That sounds just so lovely is near Denver. She was out for a walk It's Lisa and she saw a dental office where the was out for a walk, it's Lisa, and she saw a dental office where the chairs are facing a window, so passers-by can watch. Imagine that. I know. I just couldn't understand that at all. I mean, why would anyone want to go to that dentist? You don't want people walking past, seeing you with your mouth open with drool coming out, fists clenched in fear.

It is an odd one. Very odd. But listen, we don't know what other entertainment is available in Lone Tree, Colorado. Maybe this is as good as it gets. I didn't see the vice-presidential debate, did you? I've seen a few highlights. No, I did see some highlights and I don't know, did I feel a little bit for Mr. Walsh, as I would like to call him, when

he had to confess that he'd just slightly exaggerated his audience participation in the terrible events of Tiananmen Square. So he was teaching in Hong Kong, but he wasn't in Hong Kong and then in China at the same time as Tiananmen Square. It was across the same summer and there's a little bit of me that did feel for him because I think most people at some stage in their lives have imagined that they've birthed alongside history. Yeah.

In fact they haven't quite. And because most of us don't run for high office, we're protected. He's been found out and I tell you what, it just seemed a bit unfair because on the other side you've got Republican candidates who just have openly boasted about lying. Oh, they just talk tripe. Yeah. So I just thought, oh no, you've been caught out on a small thing that actually hasn't harmed anybody at all. But JD Vance has openly said, I lie about things, that's what I do.

I make stuff up. I make stuff up for a political gain, that's why I do it. But still, can I just say it was absolutely cringe and it has acted as a savage reminder that plain making stuff up, exaggerating, can sometimes come back to take a great big chunk out of your buttock. How much of your memoir have you had to lose overnight? I didn't really win 25 credit. I probably won 250. Right, this one comes from Wendy Stretch. We hear you Wendy. Yeah, she's angry and I don't blame her.

So Wendy, you do, you do, you do, you do get your tote bag but actually it was a time that Eve was away on holiday which is the only reason why it didn't go automatically into the post because Eve is very, very, very efficient and also you're living in Oakley near Basinstoke in Hampshire. Oakley is very lovely. Is it? It is. Sounds gorgeous. Yeah. Isn't there a brand called Oakley? Err, probably. They make sunglasses. They do, yeah. Sunglasses. Oh, do they? Oh my goodness. So people were trying to talk about Daniel Craig

this morning in his massive pantaloons that he's been sporting. I've dropped my script on the floor there. Erm, isn't he just sponsored by a fashion label? Yes, that nobody can pronounce. Silly trousers. How do you pronounce it? It's this. Louie. I don't know. I've always just said low, but I've never bought anything from it.

I won't be buying anything now. How do you say it? Eve, you're a young person. How do we say it? She's not sure either. She's whispering, she's so embarrassed. Okay. Well, he looks absurd, which is a shame because, you know, he's a handsome brooding figure normally, isn't he?

Yeah, and I liked it when he tipped up on the red carpet in a very sharp-fitting suit. I like that look very much. But now he's wearing these great big kind of blow-up, I mean, they're kind of like clown pants. Show us your figure, Daniel. That's what he said. Show us your legs. So who was it who had that shouted at them on the red carpet? The amazing

Ted Lasso actress. Yes, Hannah Waddingham. So all the photographers were shouting show us your legs and she just marched over and said, you say that to a man? Turns out we would Hannah. Thanks to Rebecca who sent us a lovely picture of her son George taken earlier yesterday afternoon. He has, how would you describe this? Well I mean it's not just a mullet, it's mullet 2.0. So you've got an incredible kind of, you've got a quiff on top, you've got the shaved sides, he's got the full facial beard, but also, I mean, it's like he's had a perm down the back. It's all kinds of hair.

I mean, the lad has an absolutely luxuriant head of hair. Yep. And I wonder whether he'll look back on this image of himself in 30 years time and think, well, I don't know what the history of baldness is in male pattern baldness is in his family. But he may look back on this image with great fondness and why not? Or he might not, he might still have a full head of hair. Yeah but thank you for sending it Rebecca because that is quite a look that says, it

either says 1987 or 2024, you really wouldn't be able to place that would you? No, no. In terms of hairstyles of the past. Rebecca does say that the occasion of their slightly emergency meeting was at Sheffield railway station and it was so Rebecca could hand over a bag of stuff he'd forgotten to pack for his second year at uni, including but not limited to textbooks and tea towels. Yes, I mean, I don't know how many young men would actually remember a tea towel. I mean, in fairness, I don't think many young women

would either. No, I don't think I bought a tea towel till I mean, in fairness, I don't think many young women would either. No, I don't think I bought a tea towel till I was about 24. I like them. It's one of those things that I just never ever had. But now there's something I often pick up. Really? I've got a couple of nice ones in Zahara Home. Oh, have you?

Only this, with big lemons on. Do you have any with a historical detail on them? You know, the kings and queens of England. Mum had one of those that hung over the side of the cooker for many years and it was actually as a crib sheet for history O level. It was very handy. It was a shit dishcloth. Shit dishcloth. Shit dishcloth. Shit tea towel. Shit tea towel.

So you would enjoy plunging Richard the Lionheart into a teacup, giving it a good wiggle around. Yeah, it wasn a good wiggle around. Yeah, it wasn't absorbent enough. Oh dear. It was Richard the Lionheart, wasn't it? I don't know. I didn't study it that hard. No. No.

Sounds like the tea towel was completely wasted. Your mother was doing her best to educate you and it's completely failed. She did her best on many fronts. Look what happened. Have you seen the email about the terrible hurricane? I don't think I have. I'll get on to that in a minute, you carry on. By the way, our guest today is Louise Minchin. She's turned her hand to writing fiction and she has written a kind of thriller, psychological

thriller with a twist, which is all about appearing as a contestant on a reality show. But it's not a kind of, you know, hot steamy one over in jungle. It's set in a very, very windy, dank, lank island that once housed a monastery. It's quite bleak. Okay, so would it be a real twist to write a psychological thriller with no twist? Yes, I think that would be, you could aim for that. I'll try and do that. This comes from a correspondent and it's quite a serious one actually.

Just wanted to say thank you for the pod, it brings me a lot of relief and laughs. I run my own business which I started with a business partner aged 19, she's in her 60s, not a relation. The business is in a very good place, we're now turning over about £2 million a year with a healthy return for me but I feel the weight enormously. Perhaps that's not surprising but I'm struggling to maintain any part of my life which isn't the work. I learnt to work hard because my father was both abusive and idle when we grew up so I vowed to be the polar opposite. We were estranged and a couple of years ago last month he died from

a drugs overdose. Well I'm sorry that sounds like a very very difficult childhood. I don't want my partner or family to suffer because of the intensity of the work I do or my focus on it. We all want to be successful and I want to work hard, I don't want to be lazy, I just feel I can't do any more but that the need to go on going on will get me in the end. So our correspondent says that they're not sure that they want this to be read on the pod but you're anonymous so you're absolutely okay but I thought it was quite an interesting one to put out there to the hive Jane because we are encouraged at the moment certainly at the moment to believe that there is so

much success and value for society involved in being a self-starter, running your own business, being economically active, all of those kind of things. And I think it's sometimes quite interesting to hear from people who have had that as their aim and then have found it to be really onerous and actually quite difficult, not the kind of nirvana that maybe other people would have you believe it to be. So I really sympathize with you. I think also when people come to rely on you for their jobs that is a really, really difficult position to be in. Huge responsibility. When you're so young, when you are so, so young.

So I'm grateful that you have written into us and I'm sure that lots of people, maybe people who are much, much further down the line, might be able to offer a couple of words of wisdom about that. Because to be an entrepreneur is something I absolutely have none of that in my locker. I'm not brave enough and I think it's an exceptionally tough thing to do. It's a huge responsibility. So no wonder he's feeling somewhat overwhelmed. And especially with what does sound like a really challenging set of circumstances in his childhood and adolescence. Well done for being so brave. And also well done for acknowledging now that you're finding it tough. And also well done for kind of recognising some of the reason why you've done it. Because actually if you felt that you empowered

your own life to go in a different direction to that of your family and that of your childhood, then I mean that is a very profound thing isn't it and I think is even harder to then go actually I don't need this, want this or possibly you know I actually can't do this and there's no failure in being able to put your hand up and say this isn't for me but I think it can feel like that at the time. We've set quite a few hairs running in this podcast so we want advice for that correspondent also about the menopause, also about recurring nightmares and do you have to

pay for both surgical stockings if you've got a prescription for surgical stockings? And I'm going to leave you with all of those because I'm off on holiday next week. I'm going to have such a big interest. Sorry about that. I just wanted to mention our correspondent Julie. My twin sister and I have listened to you forever. God help you both. Julie lives in Asheville, North Carolina, which has been hit hard by the recent hurricane.

I wanted to share this WhatsApp message with you. She sent it to me yesterday. So this is from Jane actually about her sister, Julie, who's in North Carolina. And Julie said yesterday, we are doing fine in comparison to other people. I boiled water for a bath this morning, still cold, fine in comparison to other people. I boiled water for a bath this morning, still cold, but finally got my hair washed. Cued up for some food

and petrol yesterday, took two hours to get the petrol. I'm going to Ingalls supermarket shortly to try to get more water. Biden is coming to Asheville so we should get funding. Ingalls parking lot has got full internet so I've parked up there. Thank God. A long time ago I downloaded Times Radio and off air so Jane and Fee have absolutely saved me. Why don't you send them an email and get me a tote bag? Maybe two if you can pull the twin card. Okay now considering this is written come on you can't Eve you've got to say yes. This has been written by a woman in a in a car park in a desperate flooded situation she deserves a tote and so does her twin. Can we agree on that? Okay. We've gone full circle haven't we all the way back to two

surgical stockings. Yes we have. Why on earth you'd want to listen over there in North Carolina to two of us asking whether or not you need to pay for both surgical stockings. Would you get a British NHS prescription? I don't know. Don't question it. But I'm not going to question it. Jane, best of luck to you in North Carolina. Really hope things improve. And look, we should say, of course, that this is a really, there's no good news anywhere in the world right now to be honest. Do you know the other morning for you, I was woken up by a news report from Sudan on the radio, it was the first thing I heard that morning and honestly it just made you think

never, ever, ever complain about anything again and I was determined that I wouldn't ever complain about anything again. How did that last? Well it all fell apart within 20 minutes but by God it really hit home. It really did. It's hard not to make a comparison between Lauren, the heroine of Louise Minchin's new novel and Louise herself because Lauren is a gutsy journalist who has found herself somewhat against her better judgement taking part in a reality TV show where she's being put to the limit in the name of light entertainment. Louise Minchin signed up for I'm a Celebrity Get

Me Out Of Here after a long career on the TV sofa over at BBC Breakfast, a career that might have looked like it was all smiles and close sitting with a television husband, but it was pretty tricky and exhausting because of the BBC's lack of equal pay, a fight that Louise took on and eventually won. Louise found out she wasn't being paid the same as her male sofa co-pres Dan Walker when he appeared on the high pay list and she didn't. But since leaving the BBC Louise has done all the things that she wants to do. Actually I think there are probably some left. She's written two non-fiction books, she's chaired the Women's Prize for Fiction, she stood in for Jane Garvey on this show and the podcast and now, that would have been

a highlight I'm sure, Isolation Island. She's written a thriller with a twist. Hello Louise. Oh of course standing in for Jane was the absolute highlight of all of that. Thank you both very much and I think you probably had fun reading it hopefully as well. Yes, now very much so and I've also read that this has been fermenting in your mind for quite a long time so we should talk about that because it's not that you've decided okay I've written a nonfiction book, I've chaired the Women's Prize, I've done some other things, oh look I'll write a novel. Lauren has been floating around in your head for years. Yes, actually. And I did all of those things in order to be able to write a novel, because I thought if you've got to if you want to be a writer, the one thing you need to do is write, isn't it? So hence the nonfiction and also

judging the women's prize was an incredible way to read other people's books. Yeah, Lauren has lived in my head. And when I used to speak to authors and interview them like you do, I never believed that this could be true. But Lauren has been living in my head for about 12 years. And I wanted to set her in a newsroom. I wanted to set a thriller in a newsroom, which as you both know, you work in newsrooms,

has a great cast of characters. But then you mentioned that I was on I'm a Celebrity. I went on I'm a Celebrity in 2021. It wasn't in Australia. It was in that castle in Wales. And there was this huge storm, which took the program off air. It ripped the roofs off all the production teams,

studios, et cetera. And I was being driven away in the dark of night without my mobile phone in a taxi to, I didn't know where and I didn't know for how long. And I just thought, oh my gosh, that is where I want to send Lauren to an undercover into a reality show that's going to turn really badly wrong. So if you had set the novel in a newsroom, would it have had the same kind of plot? And let's not give away what happens in the book, but it is a book about how a certain type of celebrity, particularly a male celebrity, can get away with things because, what, we just humour very powerful, successful male celebrities.

Oh, well, let's be really clear. It's nobody that I know in the book at all and nobody that I've worked with at all. But I think what it's about, and I think you're right to point that out, it's about for me, it's not necessarily serially celebrity actually. It's more about what power can do to a certain type of man and how they use that power to their advantage. And it doesn't actually have to be illegal

for it to be immoral in my, I think that's the kind of view you probably get from from my book but yes there's nobody related to anybody I've worked with but I just think it's so interesting isn't it now that it's come out in times where you just look at your headlines you're probably reading today and there are all the there are these powerful men who have done things which are wrong. Yeah obviously we do have to tread quite carefully when we talk about the fiction because there are so many men in real life who you would have worked with who we don't want to tar with a difficult brush.

And I do want to talk about some of the stuff that you went through over equal pay at the BBC and I don't want people to start thinking that everything you've written... They're not related. Exactly. They're not. They're really... One is fact, one is fiction. They're not related. No, okay. So let's do that great big dividing line. But let's talk a bit about equal pay because, I mean, one of the things that I find astonishing, Louise, is how you managed to keep going for so long, delivering this product in the morning that was about being bright and being cheerful and being on it and being companionable, getting up at 3.30 in the morning to do all of that too, whilst

actually behind the scenes, as you've now revealed, there was a pretty exhausting and sometimes rather kind of humiliating thing going on for you? Well, I mean, you know, you've talked about that. And you both have your own experiences with regard to that. And just to be really clear, actually, and sometimes this gets confused. It wasn't Dan that I wasn't paid equally. And there was much made of the fact that I was paid equally, same amount of money for him to do the same job, but he was paid more because he was doing other jobs.

So actually I found out that lots of other women were not being paid the same as people to do the same job on that day when we all did, when the BBC had to pay over 150,000 pounds. And I knew that had always been my story. And I had for years before that, been trying to get the same amount as the people who sat next to me. And in had four years before that, been trying to get the same amount as the people who sat next to me.

And in some ways it was a victory that Dan was paid the same amount, but mine was a historical thing. And genuinely that day, when it came out, and I can see behind me, I've got the Sun newspaper the day after, I was front page with the Sun with Dan, because he was on the list, I was not on the list.

And I've already cleared up why he was on that list. But I just realized, along with some of my fellow colleagues who are listening now, that this was something that was going on. It was kind of like at the core of so many women's experiences at the BBC. And I just thought at that point, right, okay, I've been fighting this for some years already.

This is time to dig in and continue because it's not about me. It's about everybody else who's been in that position and it's not about just presenters, it's about producers, it's about so many women who are in the same circumstances and that's why I was able I think to dig in and keep doing my job because it was the fight was important on other people's behalf. What do you think happens now? Do you think that a solid enough victory has actually been achieved that that kind of sexism won't happen again? Sometimes if I'm being honest with myself, Louise, I think that there's a way of burying sexism and misogyny now so you just don't see

it as much but it's it's not actually gone. I mean, I would, you know, you've talked about being happy and, you know, the companionable, etc. You know, I'm a glass half full person. So I sincerely hope it's made the difference. I sincerely hope the fact that we made headlines has made a difference and there is a line in the sand. But I can't guarantee that. Yeah. What do you think, Jane? I mean, as Louise said... I want to ask Jane too! No, don't ask me! Bring her in. But as Louise said at the beginning of the interview,

you only have to open the papers and actually, you know, this week is not a great week for some, you know, pretty... What should we call them? Horrible men. That'll do. Catch-all. So every time you make a leap forward, it is depressing that you have to check in with yourself and think, well actually in a couple of days I won't feel quite so positive. Do you find that?

No, I think you're right. I think it's just easier sometimes to acknowledge what you hope is confined to the past and move on assuming, stroke hoping, that they wouldn't get away with it these days. But do you know what? I'm not sure that that's the case. I'm very afraid in fact that there might be all sorts of appalling behaviour still being tolerated. And we just have to acknowledge that if a man is delivering for their immediate employer, I suspect they can still get away with pretty much anything. I mean that goes certainly not confined to the media by the way. You could probably say that about the city, where we're sitting with a relatively Ukrainian

you can see the city. I bet it's going on there but it's absolutely rife. Sorry that hasn't chewed anybody up. No it hasn't but I think it's probably the reality check. No no the one thing I want to add to that as well is that what was really powerful for me was the fact that I knew, and we went in this together, you know, there were a lot of us who were involved in this. You know, there is a power in being honest about your own salary, telling other people.

There is a power, and it's a really cliched thing to say, isn't it, in sisterhood as well. And the most a really cliche thing to say, isn't it, in sisterhood as well. And the most optimistic thing that's come out for me, and it still happens now, is I'll go into a room and I'll meet women who'll say, because of you, I have been able to access equal pay myself or be brave enough to do it or whatever it is. But then, as Jane says, on the other hand, I met someone, a very senior person the other day who says, do you know what? I know that I'm paid 60% of what my male colleague is

doing exactly the same job. So it's kind of, you know, I have to remain optimistic because that's in my character, but Jane's probably right too. Yeah, I think we should be optimistic though. Let's all be optimistic and positive. And also just because on the balance sheet, it would make more sense to promote women to the top because then they don't fall from grace quite as often and cost you so much

money in the long run. Now Isolation Island is a very cold... Well we are still waiting for the BBC, a BBC woman to bring the organisation to its knees in disrepute involving a terrible sexual scandal. Which isn't by the way to say that you don't occasionally come across the odd woman who's odd. I've had enormous fun with in the book. Let's move back to where I'm clearly drawing the line here between fiction and nonfiction in fact. So back in the book, what I've had enormous fun with though is kind of playing that character that I am not, do you sort of mean, both the kind of evil producer making my poor celebrities

who are sent to this isolated island do terrible things, but also sort of leaning into what the other side might be like and how that might feel, do you see what I mean? So it's been kind of to play that non-happy, go like a person who actually thinks bad thoughts has been really fun. Yes, and I think you really managed to pull that off in the book. The other thing that I was very impressed about in the book, Louise

mentioned, is the way that you write about scenery and about nature and you do really manage to convey this really kind of cold, damp, eerie place. Were you very good with the words when you were at school and university? Is that actually part of your thing? I did. I think I realised when I was writing non-fiction that description of places and the place that I've invented this island on the Northwest coast of Scotland, they have to live in this derelict monastery. And I think for me, when I was writing non-fiction,

it was the places which really lit up my imagination. And I know, for example, there's a chapter in Fearless when I went free diving under ice. And I know that chapter, even though it is fact, and it happened to me, gives people anxiety dreams. So yeah, I really lent into that. And that I find huge, huge, terrible. I remember sitting here for hours listening to sort of really stormy music. And yeah, I just, I absolutely love that, getting into the creativity and inventing the place. What are you going to do next?

This is a good question, you two. I've had great fun. So it's been three years since I left BBC Breakfast. I've been sitting here today, just beginning to work on another one, because I've written this story. And if you've read the end of it, there's more to, I want to know more.

I don't know the end of this story and I kind of want to play that out and there's another idea I have as well. So I'm definitely gonna write something. Again, I'm not 100% sure what it is yet, right yet. Okay, do you sometimes wake up at about 20 past three in the morning and then just laugh and go back to sleep?

Do you know what? I so do. I actually really love it. It doesn't happen very often but I wake up that awful time when I used to wake up and just think ha ha ha I've got another four hours sleep. Let's do it. How long did you do the breakfast hours for? How many years? I think I did them all together. 20 years. 20 years? Off and on at the beginning. God.

Yeah. That's remarkable, isn't it? Well, it's always lovely to talk to you, always lovely to see you. Louise Minchin, thank you very much indeed. Louise's new novel is called Isolation Island. It's out now. The subtitle is You're Kill to Be Them. They're Kill to Win.

It is always a pleasure to talk to her, she has got more energy bottled up inside her than I think I'll ever be able to muster in my entire lifetime, Jane. Well don't now, come on, don't be hard on yourself. Oh no, don't be ridiculous. Well no, you do the swimming and you've got... No, but see I don't do the same kind of swimming as Minch. So Minch does... She's done triathlon. She's done triathlon. She's represented Great Britain. Yes, well it's not, you know, we've represented Great Britain in our own way. No, my knees are going a little bit. I wouldn't be able to do two out of three of the disciplines. But no, she is phenomenal. She is a Duracell

bunny. Yeah. Well, there just must be more hours in the day for people like that. That's the only way I can explain the fact that I don't do triathlons, nor have I written a best-selling book. But hey! Still time, sister. Still time. I'm very, very good at... I made some lovely jackets last night.

You know, really nice baked potato jackets. I mean, I thought they were nice. No one said. Good night, everybody. Bye were nice, no one said. Goodnight everybody, bye. Julia, good luck. ["The Last Supper"] Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every

day Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.