Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Standards: we've got to have some - with Michael and Hilary Whitehall

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

Michael and Hilary Whitehall join Jane and Fi to talk about their podcast 'Wittering Whitehalls' and give their advice on what to tell a client who's been in a terrible play. Also - why is this podcast called Off Air? Why do vegans like meat shaped meat substitutes? And can Jane correctly predict the score of England's next World Cup game? If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Podcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Okay, welcome to Off Air with me. No, we don't do that anymore. Oh, we've stopped that, haven't we? Yeah, so you don't have to... You can just wind yourself back down. All right. Hello, everybody. Hello.

Welcome along. Who's our guest in this podcast? In this podcast, we've got two guests, Jane. Who do we have? Because we have a married couple. They are Hilary and Michael Whitehall, and they do the Wittering Whitehall's podcast together. They're the parents of Jack Whitehallhall and Michael was a very successful theatrical agent

and Hilary is a successful actress. Did you ever want to tread the board? No I didn't did you? Well no I would have liked it if I'd if anybody had said to me that I'd be good at it but I think I was waiting for someone to say, you'd be good, but nobody ever did. And I went to a girls' school. It was always the slightly racier girls who took part in joint productions with the boys' school down the road. Oh, la, la, la.

It was always the slightly sort of faster types. OK. I did play a couple of comedy roles in school productions and I really enjoyed those, but I had no desire. What did you play? I can't really remember. It was a very long time ago and they weren't very substantial parts, Jane. But I enjoyed making people laugh,

but I didn't enjoy the whole, you know, stepping out. Well, you've left behind you making people laugh, haven't you? That's gone. Oh, you're very nasty. I thought I'd done quite well this week actually and to not be on the receiving end of the wild wool that is jane garvey sometimes now it's coming back everybody yes can we just share a moment about christine christine mcveigh because we were both um i don't think either of us had ever talked to each other about fleetwood mac or never mentioned christine mcveigh but the fact that she died

it's just been rather sad hasn't it and um it's been great today that so much of her music has been out there and that people have been celebrating her. And you'd actually seen her live. I had. I saw Fleetwood Mac in 2010, at one of the best concerts I've ever been to. It was a huge one. It was at the O2, and it was when,

it was the proper Fleetwood Mac line-up, because I think they had done some tours either before or afterwards where it wasn't all of them. And it was just proper Fleetwood Mac line-up, because I think they had done some tours either before or afterwards where it wasn't all of them. And it was just mesmerising. So they were just pitch perfect, word perfect, note perfect, all the way through. It was amazing, actually, really amazing. And when Christine, I like to just call her Christine, if that's all right,

when she came on to play Songbird, I mean, there wasn't a dry eye at the O2, and that's whatever it is, 60,000 people. It was mesmerising, and you could just see the other members of the band in the wings watching too. It was just a wonderful... You know, sometimes you just can't quite believe that another human being has created something that's so magical.

It was one of those moments. And as Paul Gambagini told us on our show today, she had the idea in the middle of the night for that. I obviously had never written a song in my life, but the idea that you could just be either lying there or just sitting there, late night glass of wine or something else, and some amazing burst of creativity happens. And, of course, now you could, if you were a genius who did this kind of thing,

you could just record it on your phone, presumably, couldn't you? Yeah. But back in the day, I'm not sure she'd have had that option. So she stayed awake. In case it slipped out of her mind. In case it went out of her mind. Yep. And just kept playing it.

I love Paul Gambaccini knowing all of those things, but you nearly had a ding-dong because you said, basically, where does Christine Lyon, the pantheon of songwriters? Surely it's up there with Lennon and McCartney. And there was just this pause. It's quite a big pause. Every now and again, you could have driven a coach and horses through that pause, ladies and gents.

You could hear Paul Gambaccini thinking, right, how do I put this? And then he just went in. She's lost it. Mad woman. I just think sometimes it's worth stirring it up a little bit, isn't it? No, I mean, I actually, I'm not anticipating this, but I think it'll be a sad day when, you know,

a legendary singer-songwriter, I'm not going to mention, leaves us. Yes. That'll be really sad. Oh, God, it'd be huge, Jane. Anyway, it hasn't happened. But just before we stop talking about Christine, God, it would be huge, Jane. Anyway, it hasn't happened. But just before we stop talking about Christine, it's true, you know, you and I haven't talked about her before and yet we were both really moved by the fact that she had died.

And I don't think until today I'd really thought about the fact that I love her work so much because she is a female songwriter. I never really made that distinction in the way that i've chosen music or like music throughout my life but it just struck me today that it really was because she sang from the heart as a woman and also because she just wasn't a kind of glitzy image of perfection at all i thought she was just lovely because of that. Do you like Carole King? Yes, but I find Carole King, that's an interesting comparison. I've always found Carole King just a little bit too sad and melancholic for me.

That song, It's Too Late, is almost impossible to listen to. Yeah, so I think the whole of Tapestry just brings me down, actually. Whereas I don't think, I mean, if we were just going to pick rumours, some songs would bring me down, but not the whole album. No, not the whole album, which no doubt has been streamed endlessly. I hope so, yes. I hope so too. Just looking at her, Christine McVie's obituary in The Times today,

she was born in a small village in the Lake District, which I'm afraid I don't know how to pronounce, B-O-U-T-H, Booth, Bouth, near Ulverston, but then actually spent her adolescence in Smethwick. Her dad was a concert violinist. Her mum was a psychic medium and a healer. And her granddad had been an organist at Westminster Abbey. So it was in the genes, the musical ability.

Yeah, what a concoction of genes there. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, there we are. Christine McVie, who's no longer with us, as we say. You've slightly gone back into your woman's voice there. Christine McPhee has died today. Shut up. Shut up.

Right, Sal says, hello, I love your new show. I'm happy it's every day, though I still miss Fridays. But look at the podcast write-ups and the poor use of punctuation on the Times radio site. Oh, God. Who are we going to get the sack to? It's outrageous. I know Stephen Fry wouldn't care, but I do. You must have a space after a

full stop, surely. As I type, and I think that's hard typing there, isn't it, Sal? As I type, I'm listening to you talking to cockle converts. You are the most real and funny radio people I know. You've helped me through some awful times. I won't dwell.

Just get the writer to sort out their punctuation. And then you go on to say, oh, what happened to Sam? I worry about him. Well, worry no longer, Sal, because we are stepping out with the young gentleman only this evening. So we'll report back next week. I don't know how he's coped without us. Can you imagine, Fi? It'll be interesting if he's got a real spring in his step, won't it?

He already looked, I mean, I think he's 29. By the time we'd finished with him, he looked as though he was edging towards 70. But I suspect he'll be back at mid-20s by the time we see him. Yeah, and we'll get somebody to look into the punctuation. The full stops are there, but you don't have the two spaces before the next capital letter. And I have to say, Sal, it's annoyed me too.

Right. Neil says, and I'm guessing Neil's a gentleman, why is your podcast called Off Air when it's patently On Air, if On Air means broadcast? Neil, get with the programme. This is a podcast, not a broadcast, and we have ceased to be on air, hence we are off it. It isn't live because it's a podcast.

What time is it as we speak? 5, no, I can't do the time. 5.12 on Thursday 1st December. 5.12. Do you really say that? It's a good time, 17.12, 5.12. Do you really say that? We just have. 17.12, 5.12. Yeah.

But if you were sitting around at home and one of your housemates said, Jane, what's the time? 5.12. Would you go 5.13? It's still 5.12. Gosh, this has been a long minute. For both of us. All right.

Okay. Shall we go to our guests? Well, I just want to mention this this email another one from sophie um the royal lady in waiting resigned because she asked that charity leader who is at a function where are you from whilst i agree that assuming somebody of a different color isn't somehow british is a resignable offense how can we ask about somebody's heritage without giving offense i was born in nigeria during the biafran War and lived there for a few years, so I have a connection, even though I'm white.

And my partner, also white, runs a charity in Ghana, so has been there a lot. But it all seems such a minefield. Anyway, I thought you two, as the voices of reason, could help. Love, Sophie. I mean, it was offensive. It was very offensive, Sophie, what this lady said. Yeah. So I think also that the key thing is you're not always entitled to ask about somebody's heritage.

So if you ask someone where they're from and the answer is Hackney, then because you're in polite conversation, you're being paid to be there as a semi hostess. Your next question should be about something in Hackney that's the point isn't it so if their conversation had then got on to something around where everybody's grandparents had lived then you might be entitled to ask a question about that but the answer was very clearly given I'm Hackney. So you're just not entitled to carry on digging around. And the woman in question was so persistent. She kept going at the charity boss and it was utterly inappropriate. But you know what, Sophie, it's such, you know, we've all been talking about it all day here, too. Of course, curiosity is a wonderful thing.

And it would be dreadful if you felt that you could never be curious about people's lives. But the whole point of causing offence is that you have to know that the other person leaving your conversation won't leave it feeling hurt or dejected or insulted or whatever it is. That's what we do in normal conversations. So when it's about heritage, culture, faith or race, it shouldn't be any different. Ngozi Fulani went to that event at Buckingham Palace to have her work marked and celebrated. So there was so much to talk about.

Yes, and left feeling depleted and upset. And that's the problem. So I hope that's gone some way to explaining what we think about it. A quick one on vegetarianism and veganism from Millie. Thought I'd chip in on that conversation that you were having about meat-shaped objects. It does surprise me how many people seem to be confused that veggies and vegans would want to eat meat-shaped alternatives. After all, the reason most people are veggie isn't to do with the shape of the food. Now my nose is about to run, so could you carry on with that?

I certainly can. Sorry. This is particularly helpful for resistant meat reducers. Put that on a T-shirt. My dad, perhaps a typical middle-aged white man, always scoffed at mine and my sister's meat-free meals, claiming it's not a real meal without meat. Eye roll. But after trying some pretty convincing alternatives,

he'll happily have vegan meals regularly now. Knowing how much better eating a plant-based diet is for the environment, I think it's important that we encourage everyone, particularly people who eat meat for most meals, to try meat alternatives every now and then. And Millie says, sorry, as you can tell, I could rant about this for a while. All the best. Love the show.

Love your email, Millie, because that's a really good point. I hadn't really thought about that. It is janeandfee at times.radio. Also on our Times Radio show today, we talked to Roya Nika, who is the Sunday Times Royal Correspondent she was out there in Boston with William and Kate and we were

chewing the fat over the Harry and Meghan trailer which by pure coincidence we're sure dropped today and the feeling is it will be available on the flicks next week. Is that more than a feeling? More than a feeling. Good Boston reference there. Right.

Thank you. Hilary and Michael Whitehall are steeped in showbiz. He's a leading theatrical agent. She's an actress and a very patient woman. Jack is their son. Together they host the Whittering Whitehall's podcast. Jane started off this interview by asking Michael if her suspicions were correct

that secretly he's really cheery. No, I'm afraid you're wrong. Excellent. Whatever I do with my wife on the podcast is me. It's the real, true me. I was always very grumpy when I was an agent. I never went out with other agents, which a lot of agents, you know, I never went out with other agents, which a lot of agents, you know, they will go out for parties together or lunch and they share their secrets with each other.

I always ran a mile from any other agents. And I was just grumpy. I sat in my office and was grumpy. And when the day when the deals came through, I was grumpy because it wasn't enough money and yeah so that's it really travels with my father Michael always says oh well it's a sort of exaggerated version of me and Jack would say not that so much so Hilary what attracted you to Michael uh well you see in amongst this mix is a wonderful sense of humour. He does have, he's quite biting sometimes, but he still makes me laugh, which is what happens on the podcast, which, of course,

going on to our podcast, The Wittering Whitehools, I feel that we're trampling all over your territory, Fee and Jane. I really do. How dare you? The last thing anyone's ever accused us of is wittering, Hilary. I can't believe you've just said that so early in our friendship. But equally, it's territory that you're very welcome to trample over. But I'm quite interested, Michael. So if you are, you know, very grumpy and monosyllabic and don't really, you know,

enjoy the crack, Why do a podcast? Have you had a secret yearning to kind of be the other side of the stage for quite a while? No, absolutely not. I mean, 100%. I used to go and visit my distinguished clients, either in the theatre or, yes, well, always in the theatre. Or on a movie set

well it wouldn't apply what I'm about to say afterwards but oh no it would sort of but I when I went to see somebody let's say pulling on a name out of nowhere Judi Dench and Michael Williams who I look after um when I go and see them in a play and it was I'd have a lovely evening and afterwards I'd say you know well done in the dressing room and and good luck and then as I walked out I think god they've got to do that tomorrow night and then the night after and all I have to do is sit in my office and take the commission each week uh I've definitely got the better job I would did you did you see sorry to interrupt did you see Judi Dench being interviewed by Louis Theroux recently it was lovely in lots of ways but um she did say that the thing that used to really annoy her when people came backstage is that if they

couldn't think of anything else to say they just just say, oh, you must be exhausted. Which she always felt was a somewhat loaded comment. Did you ever say that, Michael? No, I never said I was exhausted. No, they must be exhausted. Oh, they were exhausted. Right. You must be exhausted.

Yes. We did do on our podcast. We covered how because Michael was an agent for many many years we had 30 years of going to see clients in plays, the nightmare of going to see a play that was absolutely terrible and what you say when you get backstage

and we always used to cover it with the immortal words as you burst into the dressing room well they were on the occasions when there was nothing to say because the play was so awful or the actor or actress were even worse than the bad play. I would always say, so what about you then?

Hey? You've heard that a few times, haven't you, Phoebe? A big smile and a clap that what an evening what about you brilliant i'm going to store that one up for myself too um can i ask you about your age gap in your relationship which you know it comes up in the podcast quite a lot uh when has that felt the most profound? I don't think we think about it very often, really, do we? I mean, I had to make a decision early doors that realistically, Michael was not going to socialise with my friends because it was all way over his head what we were talking about.

So we tended to migrate more if we were socialising together towards his friends, which was the majority of the time. So I do make time for my friends, but it's usually on my own. Right. We should say, I mean, the age difference is, in case anybody's wondering if it's 60 years or something, it's 21 years. But I suppose that probably is not insignificant, she said carefully. Do your friends object to the fact they don't see much of Michael, Hilary, or are they profoundly relieved? I think they're relieved. Yeah, I think they're relieved.

I think Michael's relieved as well. Definitely relieved. Your mother, I mean, the problem is that Hilary's mother, who was a wonderful woman, sadly no longer with us. Where am I looking? We're just sort of here generally. She never recovered from how much older I was than she thought I was going to be. And I was at the tail end of a telephone conversation where Hillary was talking to her mother and saying, this is when I first met her.

What did you think of Michael? And I couldn't tell you quite how big the gap was but um i but he's so sweet oh i didn't say that i just had no idea who he was so old because i was talking to her about the war because the husband he fought in the war and I was doing a lot of, oh, God, that was amazing. It must have been incredible for you being in the desert. And I think he got the feeling that I was in the desert too with him. My mother very famously came out with a line, I will be reserving judgment.

Yes, reserving judgment. Gosh, and was judgment ever given well we disagree on that I think she actually learned to love Michael in the end I like what you said on the podcast uh I can't remember which episode it was Hilary but about school heroes that they don't thrive in the real world. And I guess it's stuff like that that's made the podcast successful, isn't it? A bit of gained wisdom. I wonder whether you two find enough other things to listen to that reflect that kind of place in your life, that kind of mindset as well? To be honest, Michael doesn't do podcasts, do you? I mean, I truly didn't know what a podcast was when Hilary said, shall we do a podcast? I said, shall we? I don't know.

What is it? And it turned out to be wireless. And I said, fine, I don't mind doing a bit of wireless occasionally. The problem with wireless is it doesn't pay very good money, but I'm very, very happy to do it. Had any of your clients wanted to do a podcast before that, Michael? I'm sorry? Had any of your clients wanted to do a podcast before that and been a bit bewildered by you saying, I don't know what they are?

I stopped being an agent nearly ten years ago. was kind of wasn't hadn't been invented i don't think when i stopped being an agent but it seems it it can seem to be a young person's game i suppose is is what's behind me asking that question do you feel that i think it probably is i dare i step into very dangerous territory and say, is it slightly gender based as well? Oh, no, that's the people I think of who listen to podcasts. And my friends are women. I mean, men do listen to podcasts. Of course they do. But I don't know. I think in our sphere. I think the demographics would suggest there is a slight gender bias towards women.

Right. But that's not a sort of universal thing. No. I mean, it's a complicated picture because lots of the most successful podcasts are done by men and listened to by men. I mean, if you look at the successful podcasts at the moment, there's lots of political ones hosted only by men, football ones mainly by men, and listened to, I would imagine, also mainly by men. But the secret of your podcast is that there is a genuine, there's an authenticity to your relationship, isn't there, which I think people buy into. And they do seek your advice. Do you regard yourself, Hilary, genuinely as someone who is qualified to give advice? Absolutely not. I think the only qualification we have is that we've been married for 36 years, together for 38 years. So we've argued about most things, most topics we've had a row about, because it will not surprise you to learn, Jane, that we don't agree on most things.

So when we do give advice, we're giving advice from pole opposite positions usually yes yeah and covering a lot of ground and a lot of bases and the other thing of course that i think is very important and michael i think would agree is that it has to be there has to be a comedic element definitely has to be funny i think well i'm going to introduce a not at all comedic element now because we talked earlier about the age gap and in the podcast I listened to Michael asks you very seriously Hilary if you've ever thought about the fact that you might have to change his nappies I mean and I was because you were mentioning your much much loved uh granddaughter I think you've probably been

involved in some nappy changing activity there and um. And then Michael veers off into this. And I was sort of both interested and, if I'm honest, mildly horrified by that conversational turn. The nappies. Well, I think also, I think humour is a great, it's a great leveller, but it's also a great sort of lubricant for difficult situations. I had, my father had dementia for 10 years and i supported my mother looking after him and then my mother when he died sort of felt a bit physically and was

quite severely disabled ended up in a wheelchair but we always managed to find the fun you know when i was trying to negotiate the wheelchair into the disabled toilet that wasn't really a disabled toilet and getting started etc you have to really, because it's the best way through it. Yes. I mean, many people would say it probably is the only way. And I admire your, again, it's back to the authenticity thing. I admire the fact that Michael brought up that topic and that you did tackle it because I guess for a lot of people, it's a reality.

It is. It is. And I think nappy is a funny word to be honest as well it is actually it's a slightly ridiculous world you remember that we when we were at the edinburgh festival when jack first started his stand-up comedy yeah and we went to see him in a at a venue and when we went up there more recently i said to, we were looking for your venue, but we didn't seem to be able to find it. And he said, no, it's been, it's not a venue anymore. They've converted it into something else. And I said, oh, what have they converted it into? And he said, a disabled toilet. That gives you a notion of the size of the venue.

I couldn't believe that it was that small in that room. Well, he's playing to much bigger venues now, isn't he, to be fair to the lad? I'm sure that you would have been asked this question so many times, but was there ever a difficult kind of period of competitiveness between you, Michael, and Jack? You know, you've turned your relationship into a very successful kind of comedy double act,

but there's a nuance between parents and children, isn't there, as well, about power and attention and all of those kind of things? I don't think there is between Jack and I, no. I mean, I never wanted to be an actor. I mean, last thing on earth I wanted to be and he knew that so I've never been looking for a route into being on stage or being famous and you know being signed autographs and stuff so he knew that I wasn't trying to get into his space but I was thrilled that he wanted me to do something with him and that series that we did we went on you know we did it it was it went over five

series and how lucky am I when people come up to me in the street they often say you you know, I wish I could have done a show like that with my father. They always say nice things about, and I say, how lucky I am to have been able to work with my son for such a long period of time. And also for him to let me have all the jokes. Yes, that's very generous. And Hilary, I mean, presumably it gave you a nice bit of time off. It did, although, of course, I was an actress, so I've been on a journey because I would consider that he picked the wrong parent.

But that's a whole other podcast. Oh, no, that's interesting. Tell us a bit more about that. Well, you know, I get that the funnier vibe is Michael and Jack. But as a performer, of course, and particularly when Michael struggled with performing, I used to think, well, I should have picked the other parent, shouldn't you, Jack? Ha, ha, ha, ha. But you did pop up in the show, didn't you, Hilary?

I did. Well, Jack would argue that I shoehorned my way in. You did? You mean shoehorned? I mean, youhorned my way in. He did. He didn't shoehorn. I mean, you downed your way in with a huge pickaxe. I mean, that's much fun. Much fun. I thought, right, I'm going to have a bit of this. I'm just going to force my way in, and I did.

Well, Michael was your agent. Was he any good in that role? He was hopeless. Well, I was looking for a wife, and she was looking for an agent. When we met. Was he any good in that role? He was hopeless. Well, I was looking for a wife and she was looking for an agent. When we met. When we met. And so, you know, it worked out quite well from my point of view,

but not quite so well from her point of view. Yes. All he did was make me pregnant. Oh, OK. Yeah, three times. Three times and later. And that was the career up in smoke. Can I ask about your other children? Have they have they dodged the showbiz bullet? Are they not interested? Well, sort of dodged it. Our daughter, Molly, works in PR. She actually looks after documentaries, though, so she's more serious. She's showbiz adjacent, though, isn't she? Yes. And our other son is sort of showbiz adjacent because he does a lot of social media work and brand partnerships with people on social media.

There's some warning bells are sounding there. I think they might both be desperate to climb the greasy pole of showbiz themselves, really. But if you're looking for a kind of surrogate daughter to go on any number of really exotic travelogues, Jane and I can volunteer our services. We'd love to do that with you, Hilary. I can't think of anything I'd like to do more than travel the world with Fee Glover and Jane Garvey. Let's do it. Hilary, let's do it. I think we're beginning to sort a programme here, aren't we?

Yeah, I think I might be a little old to pose as your daughter, Hilary, but I'll give it a go. You've got sisters. Yes, that would be better. I don't have a sister, so there you go. You'll be my sisters. Hilary and Michael Whitehall were our guests on the show this afternoon and now here on the podcast and the Wittering

Whitehalls is the name of their podcast if you'd like to delve a little deeper I did find myself agreeing in one of the episodes I listened to completely with Michael when he said that nobody should go to a theatre wearing flip flops oh quite right does anybody really care about that? does he? with Michael when he said that nobody should go to a theatre wearing flip-flops. Oh, quite right.

Does anybody really care about that? Does he? He does care about it. It was one of those things where I didn't think that I would care about it, but when he said he cared about it, I thought, yeah, no, I'd care about that too. Standards. Yeah. We've got to have some. Okay, as you listen to this, we are still awaiting the game between England and Senegal,

which will be on Sunday evening. Obviously, our show is resuming, and this podcast too, on Monday. But let's just check in with my crystal ball to reveal what's going to happen on Sunday. You've been wrong on every single game, Sophie. No, I said England would beat Wales 2-0. I stopped watching when they were winning 2-0. I assume that's what happened.

No, but that doesn't mean that you're right. You can't just walk away from world events when it doesn't suit your waters. Well, so... What is going to be the score in the game, Jane? I've got bad news for England fans.

Sorry. I think it might be one all and then I think there'll be extra time and pen-alls as we say in Liverpool. Hang on, hang on, hang on. One all, pen-alls. Full time, then extra time. Extra time as we say in Liverpool. Hang on, hang on, hang on. One all, penalties. Full time, then extra time.

Extra time, penalties. And then penalties. Yeah, OK. And on penalties, what happens? I don't think England are going to win. You don't think England are going to win. OK, I'm putting this all down here. When you go past fountains and stuff, do you chuck a penny in and make a wish?

What do you mean? Well, do you believe in all of this superstition and your waters and all that kind of stuff. I just know that. I can't help it. It's one of those things. It's actually, no, it's a problem for me to have this knowledge. It's not a problem because you're never right. Okay, it's problematic. Let's put it that way.

It certainly is. Well, let's see who has the last laugh, shall we? I do feel that. I know you do, but nobody else is feeling it, love. Right. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now, you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app

or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5, on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening, and hope you can join us off-air very soon.

Goodbye.