Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Stapler to the stars (with Helen Lederer)

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

Jane and Fi are back together and they're cracking into a bar of Milka, do excuse them... After that, they chat pickles, eclipses and ferry tours. They're joined by comedian Helen Lederer to discuss her new memoir 'Not That I'm Bitter'. Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean, I wax and wane with pickles. I've discovered jarred gherkins recently. How do you feel about a corny shop? OK. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Hello. Right. You're on. Sorry, I'm just trying to interpret. I think it's either Robbie or Debbie. Or Rebby.

Shall I read it out? Yeah, go on. Dear Jane and Fee, a petit cadeau from my recent trip to France. I hope this is actually what you were talking about. I'm one of the many, many who enjoy your show and its diversity of topics, not to mention the great humor the podcast keeps me entertained on my morning walks thank you enjoy and it is it's milker ole de pe alpa that means it's made with alpine milk so it's the gorgeous uh kind of mauve yeah colored very nice chocolate yeah yeah thank you. It's very kind, it's very soggy smooth. Could we just have a little chunk now?

No, because that would be really unprofessional. Oh no, come on. Because I'll ask you how your holiday was and then you can talk for four and a half minutes I'll have a chunk and then you can ask me how mine was and you can have a chunk for four and a half minutes. I'll open it.

I just don't know how you get through normal life. Thank you very much for the present. How was your holiday? But I just want to encourage people to send us cadeaux. And they don't have to be petite. I mean, you can send us a big one. I'm very, very fond of a savoury snack. Can I just pop that in there? If anyone's got access to some really, really

lovely, spicy samosas. You know the ones that are made with almost... I'm not very fond of the phyllo pastry covered ones. Oh, I don't like phyllo pastry at all. That's a con job, phyllo pastry. Slightly more kind of shortcrust-like pastry around a very spicy samosa.

Phyllo is just not a thing. Never send me it, never give it to me, never offer it to me. OK. Yes, I had quite an average week, in truth. You've been the victim of crime tell the listeners jane tell them that really does slightly overstate it although there'll be lots of people listening who've had a very similar experience where basically you go to the cash

point get a bit of cash out as i was telling my colleague earlier i like to always have a little bit of cash to hand not much but i do colleague earlier, I like to always have a little bit of cash to hand. Not much, but I do enjoy having it. Anyway, stuck the card in. Card was retained by the machine. And long story short, I cancelled the card, but not before Scamsters had got the account and had tried to transfer a load of money out.

And this is called skimming. It's called skimming. It's a scam and it's called skimming. Yeah. There's also something called shimming. And you want to avoid both i should say um and it also it has the i mean look i'm a reasonably competent adult and i'm i'm not short of money i'm not i'm not pretending that i i am in any way and i've got a lot to be grateful for but the whole episode left me feeling just a bit vulnerable and stupid oh i'm I'm not surprised. And that's annoying in itself.

Yeah. And also, I feel bad that it's happened to you because I think that you're not as robust in accepting the modernisation of the world as some of your contemporaries. Who do you have in mind? No, I do. You're absolutely right.

I wrestle with everything and I do fear for my future doddery self because I just think I'm going to be going down all sorts of wrong turns. And I think that this has just confirmed your worst fears. So I'm very sorry it happened to you. Thank you. But also I'm very glad that you got the money back. Oh, yeah, no, all of that was absolutely fine.

I mean, I've nothing, you know, and I've nothing to complain about except my heart goes out to people to whom this does happen and perhaps they are really felled by it because you just feel a prat. Well, I think so many people would blame themselves for their card disappearing. They'd think I've pressed the wrong button or, you know, I don't have enough money in my account

and the bank has kept my card or whatever. I don't think they'd immediately think somebody's doing something wrong to me. So I think that's why people leave it for ages, isn't it? And then they maybe look on their phone or read a statement kind of 24 hours, a couple of days down the line. And people have taken thousands. I know, it really does. It makes your bowels turn to water. Oof! Yes.

Naughty. But apart from that, I did have a lovely trip to Liverpool. You'll be heartened to hear that. I went on a tour, and this is a hard recommend for tourists coming up. I've popped some more chocolate in, kids. I went on a tour of the Liver Buildings with the famous Liver Birds. Now, I'd never done it before. Obviously, the Liver Birds have been a part of my life since whenever Fee's opened a book.

But it's a tour well worth doing because it happened to be on a beautiful, beautiful sunny afternoon. And the views across the Mersey were to die for. There was also a very good young man who was a guide. And he was telling us about the origins of all sorts of local buildings and local facilities, including the Mersey Ferry, which started. Did you know this? It's unlikely. I have to say. Which started, I think it was in 1270.

I don't want to let people down gently. Sorry. 1270. How do they know that? I don't quite know. 1270? Yes. How do they know that? I don't quite know. 1270? Yes, with the monks of, and I love this detail, the monks of Birkenhead Priory offering to row people across the Mersey.

Wow. You can imagine the conditions on that rowing boat must have been absolutely... So how long would that take, a monk to row across the Mersey? That's a good question. I don't know. Somebody will know. I mean, the Mersey Ferry takes, God, probably takes about 11, 12 minutes. No less than that, surely. Seven or eight, possibly. I haven't been on it for years. Does it move at speed?

Not really, no. And then, actually, certainly the one I went on, when the kids were quite small, they played Gerry Marsden, Ferry Across the Mersey, throughout the trip. I'm sorry, Jane, but imagine even the most hardened scouser is working the ferries I mean that's got to drive you bonkers after a while. Well is it still being played on every single... it can't be that must have been on some special

tourist thing because the voiceover I remember the guy came on and said welcome to the greatest ferry in the world and I thought it you know it's up there but is it maybe Athens to creep oh sh not I've got a thing to say about that

anyway but it is fascinating and all sorts of detail that I kind of probably did know but had forgotten

about what inspired the liver buildings and how Birkenhead Park inspired Central Park in New York did you know that I didn't know that

so there you go some lovely facts and figures there I think it's quite moderate prices to go on a tour Wiccanhead Park inspired Central Park in New York. Did you know that? I didn't know that. So there you go. Some lovely facts and figures there. I think it's quite moderate prices to go on a tour of the Laiber buildings. Pick a sunny day, get up there, you won't regret it. In your absence... What were you doing? Well, we were here last week, me and the Malkerans, and we had a really lovely time.

And one of the threads that we started was just about these mundane things that people have inherited from their loved ones and I just want to say thank you to all of the people who've put their individual experiences up on our Instagram feed because it's just a really really lovely way to spend five minutes just reading through the little things that mean so much to people. So Nikki says I inherited my mother-in-law's tool bag. It's got lots of odd things in it, but one is a small wooden-handled tool with a metal spike on the end and a cork from a wine bottle on the spike. Not sure if it's a weapon or a bog-standard hole maker.

And then Carla Bolton Counselling has chipped in to say it's a bradle. I'm sorry if I pronounced that wrong. My mum has one of these and she says, you'll never know when you need to make a hole. And your mum's not wrong. That's true, isn't it? Yeah. Actually, just give me an example.

When was the last time you needed to make a hole at short notice? Well, funny enough, in my own tool bag, Jane, I've got exactly the same piece of equipment and I found it very useful to put a small hole in some plasterboard the other evening into which I then banged a nail to hang up my calendar of GCSEs and A-levels. There's a lot of highlighters going on there. It's fast approaching isn't it? It is isn't it. Arja 1945 says two Victorian children's leather boots, inherited from the previous owner of our house.

Her builder found them walled up by the back door. Oh, I don't like the sound of that very much. Her instructions were that they were not to leave the house, and when I move on, they must stay and be passed on to any new owner. Isn't that extraordinary? Is that extraordinary, or is that a bit sinister? Well, I don't know. I don't know.

And Celia says, that's a fab stapler, because it was Dad's stapler uh he started that off and i just love this it's a rexel matador chain oh was it it's the matador well the matador it's um it's the preferred model isn't it it's uh it's very sturdy it's the stapler to the stars and it definitely does the job but it doesn't i don't think it draws attention to itself. So I'm surprised they called it the Matador. I have to say, I'd like to have been in that meeting. And we'll call that one the Matador. It's a stapler. So it's like the names for caravans and motorhomes, isn't it?

They're always called the Voyager. Challenger. Off you go to Colwyn Bay. Now, not that I'm knocking it because it's a beautiful part of the world. Yeah. I think I said that quickly enough. We've also been doing dating questions, better questions that could be asked of people on dating websites.

This is with Joan Mulkerrins. Yeah, when you go on a date. Stuff that is really going to elicit a decent answer from the other person. Okay, so the suggestion was, I think this is great. It's brilliant. It's from Naomi, who says, I had to write in to share this gem of a first date question. I think obviously this is from her own experience.

What is your second favourite cheese? That has really totally got me thinking. I would have to say, if asked, I think Wensleydale. Oh, don't you find it too crumbly? Annoyingly crumbly. Not when you get a really good one. No. But it could never occupy top spot.

Okay. I always find with the Wensleydale, by the end of the packet, you have to eat it. You know, like when you just tip the last of the crisps into your mouth. Throw it down. Tip the Wensleydale back in. What is your favourite cheese? By the way, we're not on a date. I know it's been a while.

In your dreams. Well, you know, it depends. I do like Stilton at Christmas. Yeah. I've never gone as far as a stinking bishop, although I've had one. I would probably just say, I'm afraid it makes me sound a little bit of a dickhead,

a manchego. Oh, no, of a dickhead, a manchego. Oh, no, I'm with you on a manchego. Okay, right. I'm very, very with you on a manchego. Yeah. Because it's a little bit fruity and it's absolutely smothered silk. And chalky. Yeah, it's a very nice cheese. Do you need a pickle?

No. You see, if we were on a date it would be going well it would be so on for a second one i don't i mean i wax and wane with pickles i've discovered jarred gherkins recently how do you feel about a corny shop? And we're off. Okay. Our guest is Helen Lederer. Coming up. Oh dear, coming up. So thank you for all of your lovely, lovely, lovely other emails that have come in.

The baked potatoes has just gone on and on and on. Oh, please read the one. It's still on the baked potatoes. No, but that was a very funny one about baked potatoes. Yeah, so this one comes from Evelyn who says, I thought I'd share a quote that I think I heard on Gogglebox. One of the viewers was describing David Cameron. She said she always thought he had the face

of a disappointed baked potato that had been done in the microwave. And supposedly there is a foolproof way to do them in the microwave and they're not as yucky as you might have thought. Oh, I don't know. I'm never going to learn that treat. I'm sorry. Oh, dear. Can we hear from Grant? You haven't had this one, have you? I should say because I wasn't here last week so I don't going to learn that treat. I'm sorry. Oh, dear. Can we hear from Grant?

You haven't had this one, have you? I should say, because I wasn't here last week, so I don't want to repeat anything. Heaven forbid that I should repeat content. That's never happened, has it? Cling film. It's always nice to see an old friend. It's nice to welcome them back into the room.

I haven't talked about cling film for getting on for a week now. I split my time between Edinburgh and Amsterdam, boasts Grant. He's a time splitter. He's got two locations. And I normally listen to you while I'm on a delayed flight at either end. My grandparents had an old-fashioned wooden scroll calendar that sat on top of a bureau in their house. It had three scrolls for the day, the date,

the month, knobs either side that you'd turn daily to display the correct date. When my brother and sister and I were young children, we used to race to it to be the first one to change it over if my grandparents hadn't already done so. We're older and my grandparents no longer with us, but that very same calendar that once sat sat on my father's desk during his working life and later on in the bureau in their home now sits on a table in my home it makes me think about them and back to the time when we were grandchildren and then the grandparents each time i turn the wooden knobs to change the date i've never written to a program before but listening to others share their stories made me want to share mine.

Oh, that's lovely. That is lovely, Grant. Thank you very much for that. And yes, I think that is one that I obviously I think that's such a touching topic, actually, that because literally touching because it's the physical contact with with people who are no longer around and just being able to have them as still very much a part of your life. And that's great. Yeah. And you know what? Nobody has written in kind of boasting about a legacy. So it's absolutely not about, you know, the valuable painting or whatever it was or the, I don't know what it would be, the piece of silver.

It's just the tiny, really mundane things. And so that is lovely. But would you take something to Antiques Roadshow? Oh, gosh, if I don't go to Antiques Roadshow. Apparently that's now the bbc's most successful tv show well i mean you can interpret that story two ways can't you um they do need to to i'm not i'm not going to do huge bbc bashing but they do need to get another line of duty up or something like that well they've got because the blue lights is coming back

blue lights that's right that comes back next mond think it does, and it's such a good show. You're right. If you didn't watch the first series of Blue Lights, make sure you're up to speed when it kicks off again next week. Just a brilliant show. A police show set in Northern Ireland, but not what you're thinking. No, so you're absolutely right. So get a shifty on and watch series one

so that you can join in with us discussing series two. Have you watched any of Ripley on Netflix? It looked a little bit too sophisticated for me with the moody black and white it's very moody black would i follow it well there are lingering shots of sculpture yeah and sometimes you go a quarter of an hour without really any dialogue so it's very slowly paced but it's it's very it is quite gripping. It's very, very dark. Is it a film or episodes? It's episodes.

But I'd be interested in whether or not other people are enjoying it, Jane. I'm pretty sure I'm not. I'm watching it, but I don't think I'm enjoying it. No, okay. If you have to ask yourself whether or not you're enjoying something, I think that's one to raise in you. Well, it's mesmerising. Well, Andrew Scott's in it, isn't he?

So I imagine it's watchable. It is watchable. Now, we did have a slightly challenging conversation earlier in the day. After a relatively happy reunion, it has to be said, I then mentioned that I'd seen Scoop, the Netflix show. Oh, yes. And I thought it was quite dull.

I said, I really don't see how you can make film or television about the media because we're not as interesting as we think we are. And then you then promptly reeled off a whole list of brilliant shows and films about newspapers. So maybe I stand corrected. No, I don't think you're, no, I don't think you're wrong about Scoop. I found it just really strange. So this, we should say, this is the Netflix version of what happened when Newsnight on BBC booked an interview with Prince Andrew I mean that's it isn't it it is

the interview itself did change things and rightly but the setting up of the interview I don't know wasn't that invested no neither was I and and I think the flaw in the plan is that as you watch Scoop, you do realise that it was as much the fact that the palace wanted to put him up there as it was that the amazing Newsnight booker, Sam McAllister, managed to get the palace to do that. And in some scenes, if you imagine a tug of war, it's actually more to the palace's side that the interview happened than it was to the BBC's. They thought it would do them good. Yes, so that's why they agreed to it. But I just think some of the best movies and TV shows I've watched are set in news. So I think things, I really love The Morning Show and Broadcast News, I think it's a fantastic one. I think The Post is a fantastic movie.

And then there's Network with Peter Finch. I wish I'd never had the opinion I had earlier. No, but just that one. And also, I can't really understand how there are going to be two versions of that story. There's four episodes in the other version of this. Oh, is that a box set? It's an Amazon thing.

They've got four different episodes. Okay, so for people who really don't understand what we've gone on to say, this Scoop is a film that's up on Netflix that has been made basically by Sam McAllister, who is the celebrity booker on Newsnight who managed to get the interview. And then there's another Amazon version of the same story

that is very much done by Emily Maitlis, who is the interviewer, and that's coming out in about... It's about a year's time grief you know what upset me most is in scoop they have shot after shot of emily mateless being allowed to bring her whip it i knew that every time i saw the whippet i thought that would be annoying fee yeah because i was never once allowed to take my nancy into the. I thought I'd seen Nancy at work. Not my Nancy.

Right. What Helen Lederer is coming up, and we should say that there's been a lot of smut in relation to Jane Mulcairn's frank enjoyment of James Martin. Oh, I was quite surprised. Well, she's got a bit of a

celebrity crush. We were just talking about men that you just really want to warm to immediately and she named James Martin largely because he can wear a cricket jumper well. But it caused some consternation because I wouldn't

have James Martin in my top ten. Martin says, The bonhomie that Fia created with Jane Malkerians was shattered when Jane revealed her secret crush on James Martin, surely the poster boy for arrogant, bigoted bullies everywhere. Well, I think we do. Martin, James Martin, that is, is not here to defend himself. I don't know whether we know that he's any of those things,

other Martin, Martin Green. I don't know whether we know that he's any of those things, other Martin, Martin Green. I enjoyed Fee's surprised reaction and admit that the shriek I emitted at Jane's revelation was in the same range. Maybe there's still place in the hearts of sensible, intelligent people for blokey throwbacks, especially if they do look pleasing in a cricket jumper. Can I also recommend Driven, James Martin's autobiography from 2008, as a candidate for selected readings? Very much so. So we've been ending the podcast with just a gentle reading, send people off to sleep,

and our producers have got hold of beefy Botham's seminal work. It's called Botham. Or is it called Beefy? I don't know. But anyway, OK, but you're going to peruse that. I may be, yes. Fun times. Suzanne has a completely different take, though.

Ray James Martin, my mother-in-law and sister, are obsessed. Both have been to see him live and have been to have dinner with him at his monthly dinner in Manchester. Getting tickets for this makes the Taylor Swift tour look easy. But the last one took 800 calls. They've even been on cruises with him separately with their husbands. Such is their admiration that my mother-in-law has a photo of herself and James Pride a place on the landing

between formal photos of herself and her husband. That's brilliant. Yeah. The other son did assume that he was his third grandad. Facepalm emoji. Well, Suzanne, gosh, I mean, I hope you're OK. The email starts, though, on a different topic, following the story about the husband incapable of looking after himself.

I also married one of these men. However, within three months of moving in, we had a cleaner and have done ever since. I also taught him how to use the washing machine and work travel introduced him to the world of salad and vegetables that he'd never had to eat either. Yesterday my son turned five and he can put the dishwasher on and put a supervised wash on already. Oh that's brilliant. Isn't that brilliant? Well done you. Interestingly I also travel with work and whilst I can count on many hands how many people have asked how my

husband can manage on his own, nobody has ever asked him how I manage by the way my standard response is fine we are equal partners and I don't have a genetic propensity for emptying the dishwasher either well done you girl yeah quite I wonder if she'll get sick of saying that as the years go by or will she still just come out with it I don't't know. How do men manage things? I don't know. We were talking a little bit about merch. Rhoda can't stand the term and she also adds, for goodness sake, Jane M, just buy a colander. But don't go for a collapsible one as unfolding it during cooking is a step you don't need when heavy pans, speed and hot water are involved. I think that's a very wise bit of advice well unfortunately me and the

team did buy jane m a collapsible colander i was shocked that a woman of her i wasn't going to say vintage because she's barely out of her 30s is she but it does seem astonishing that she didn't have a colander she told me that the week before yeah i was i was a little bit disappointed in her yeah have you ever looked around your kitchen when you're absolutely knee-deep in the making of the soup and wished for an implement? Is there an implement you don't have? No, I think I was married to a man who had every implement going and he didn't take many of them with him.

So, frankly, I'm blessed. Did he have fish tweezers? Oh, we've certainly got a fish kettle. But not the tweezers. But not the tweezers. What do you use fish tweezers for Oh, we've certainly got a fish kettle. But not the tweezers. What do you use fish tweezers for? To take the bones out. And they're funny because they're angled kind of like that, so you can pinch them and they're big long...

This doesn't make sense on the radio. They're big long things go out at the front. Right. Okay, thanks for that. So, Fee will be taking our antique fish tweezers down to Antiques Roadshow. What would you take on the Antiques Roadshow? Well, I just wouldn't go because I just find it a really boring show. I know it brings pleasure to millions, quite clearly does,

but there's something about the pace of it that, oh, good grief. I mean, Lord, I'm boring, but I can't deal with it. No, I'm with you. Because when they try and create some jeopardy at the end with the price, it's just too slow. And I'm always fascinated by the looks of the crowd, you know, who've gathered behind the astonishing barometer. Yeah, but they're always very supportive.

You see, we're sounding like people who have watched it, and I think that's dangerous. No, I think it's okay to say that we have watched it in order to really flesh out our opinion. Also, I was tuning in yesterday because Mammals with David Attenborough was on. Yes. Gosh, they're big.

Blue whales. Blue whales. I didn't know. 30 metres long. That's huge, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. A very quick one, just because I started this one,

and Rhoda will be upset if I don't finish it. Suggestions for useful items for merch. Oh, yeah, go on. Needle threaders, bookmarks, stylish and practical solutions for carrying and accessing quickly mobile phone and glasses, adjustable, flexible, lightweight laptop support at the right height to help prevent Windows hump.

Love the show. Thank you very much, Rhoda. We'll take all of those. Somebody else said sex toys. Oh, how horrible right Helen Ledger is with us hello Helen well I can speak now can I because I would have joined in earlier but then

I thought no I've not been introduced I would like to read the formal introduction if you don't mind I don't Helen Ledger is a comedian and actress and it says here Helen much admired founder of the comedy women in print prize your memoir is out now. It's called Not That I'm Bitter. And she isn't bitter. I've read the book and it's very funny and actually

also points extremely sad and very revealing about what it was like to be a woman in comedy back in the day. I did see you very recently as Ken Barlow's love interest Elspeth in Coronation Street. Now, Helen, you are a very young woman. Kenneth Barlow, should know better. He's at least 1,000 years of age and still courting. He's actually 1,000. You're right, your researcher did well there. And remarkable for those years of being upright. Now, that was, you know, you get the call, don't you,

as we both know, and all three of us, and I jumped. I mean, Coronation Street, are we going to talk about Coronation Street? We can talk about Coronation Street. I mean, it's just more the fact that... Older woman. In all seriousness, you're not the older person here. Ken Barlow's character is over 90. I do know that to be true.

I'm sure he is, and he's still having girlfriends in Coronation Street. Yes, is that a shocker? Or I think that the fact that Elspeth got a drink and gave it to him. Have you ever done that? You actually buy a drink and then you give it to the man. That was kind of... I've never done that. I've gone wrong.

No, I'm a bit mean, though. Jane's never bought a drink anyway. You know each other so well. Ken is different. Ken is an angel in some form uh and kind to me uh didn't reject me but i'm glad you um said a nice thing about the i'm not that i'm bitter because there is irony in the title and you know when you say the title and then if people smirk a bit you go okay that's fine then you'll. Because obviously it wouldn't be funny if there wasn't some truth in it,

but there really isn't much because of being this age and looking back. Yeah, I think what you are is incredibly honest in this book, but also I have to say, Helen, remarkably hard on yourself. You do give yourself a right old going over. And Fee and I have been talking in our podcast, Orfair, about male autobiographies recently, and indeed reading extracts from some male autobiographies. And I have to say, by and large, sweeping generalisation alert,

they are not hard on themselves, and they're nowhere near as honest as you are. Because we were brought up and emerged in our canvas, our canvas has overlapped, hasn't it? And it is competitive. And I think there's part of me that is always waiting for someone to criticize me and that's that's a starting point or maybe that yeah or an end point so I and I can't lie very well I get quite anxious if I lie

so if you're going to do it you can't leave things out because I so I had a kind of judgment person on my shoulder writing it but I really I I just wanted to make you laugh with the truth. So it was a challenge to go, I just need to have some irony in the narrative. So if I've done that, but I'm learning now, and it's really, this is my first interview. People's reactions are really surprising about almost judgmental of me.

You weren't being judgmental of me but uh entirely i don't think but there will be judgment as you say of women now looking back at how women were then yeah it's a prism if i may use that very pretentious word you might use that your captions later prism and and it's i don't see how we can impose the same questions now of how we were then. It sounds a bit defensive, but do you want to know? No, no, by the way, I'm not remotely judgmental and Fee wouldn't be either, but I'm astonished by what you went through, to be blunt,

including moments that were worse than me too. I mean, at least we won't go into the details of one really hideous incident with a man who was, quotes, coaching you in acting, which I was absolutely horrified by. But you took it that way. What's interesting is another way to look at it is you look back, Kel Disastro, we must have all had situations where, and you talk, you are so funny together, you know,

you go, oh, my God, that was, you know. And that was then, and people in positions of power, it was then and people in positions of power it was normal for people in positions of power to to move the goalposts in a way they would never do now if you want to keep your job and also i want to be better actually i want and and so there is a part we all play so this is all and really ultimately yes that happened didn't make it up we couldn't have done but but but i wanted to be able to be to challenge myself to go i just need to find the humor the hysteria that it's surreal as well in the narrative because otherwise you go mad and humor does make things

safe you do talk about how back in the day and we're talking the 1980s really women were at least allowed to be funny and there had been very successful funny women. Joyce Grenfell, for example, hugely popular. But she was before us, wasn't she? Even before me. Lovely frock, so. Wonderful frock. But you were one of very few women

who were part of that 80s British comedy movement. What was it like? Yeah, and I think looking back, the reason I wrote it, I don't know why I wrote it, so I've got to have a better answer than that but because sometimes i think i wasn't there because i wasn't a star and and that this book is fine for people to have just been there so sometimes think was i there did did i do those things so there were five there were five years worth of doing stand-up when not many other people were doing it. And also we're brought up not to boast. So I have to tread this line of not boasting, not exaggerating, but owning it.

So the book was trying to do all those things, you know, be more, because I hate showy offy, but equally, if I don't do it now, I'm never going to do it. And being in the autumn of my life, it seemed the kind of time to go, hey, I charged £2.60 at the King's Head, you know, in 1981 or something. And what made you want to do it at all? I don't know. I think you just have to remember possibly what's useful barometer is how were we all in our class at school?

So there were two large people in my class. The other one wasn't funny. And so I was funny and large had asthma so that those were helpful um traits to get me into the hysteria and the joy of laughing and making other people off so if you did a reunion you'd still those people would still be those types wouldn't they so I think there's a sort of natural leaning for me to do that and now I'm understanding people more are more tolerant about people who are different maybe i was different but then i play on that because actually i'm not that different so i'm not mad enough you know people say comedians are quite mad i you know i'm quite

sensible as well are you you've got a sensible side i have a slightly quiet one keep it hidden um you just describe yourself at one point there as a whole bit about um an agent basically ripping you and lots of other people off um by the way i mean it should never happen quite clearly but it's surprisingly common in the public domain yeah no it is it's something we could talk about but you call yourself at the bottom of the top in terms of the earners. Yes, it's tragic, isn't it? Well, but that's another example of you just being hard on yourself. Like you truly believe that although you were successful, you were never quite successful enough.

No, I wasn't in the A team. And there are probably many reasons why we can all look back and say, well, we didn't get that, we nearly got that. But I think the climate was there were very few women's positions, and the women were championed brilliantly, and they became stars and remained stars. And the climate, and if you did something, then you were seen as duplicating that.

So it was a bit pointless. So, oh, by the way, I'd quite like to do a sitcom about, you know, an MP, or we've got that in play for Dawn French. And that's fine and and makes sense but the times have changed now but um what did you ask me was something about the yeah the agent oh yeah i thought that was quite funny because the very rich people didn't talk about it so very rich famous people don't have to do this but i'm i'm a sort of worker so i'm quite happy to actually talk about it because i'm there's still a so I'm quite happy to actually talk about it because

I'm there's still a bit of anger in me to talk about how it was. Can I just say some of your anger is completely justified I would be angry if I were you because you were ahead of your time in quite a number of ways your your book for example about being a single parent came out well before anyone else wrote about that kind of thing. It was a misnomer. And I know it sounds a cliche and don't we all say it, but people did, they didn't know whether to put it in the health section or the humour section because, and then when I did the interviews about, I mean, I was commissioned to do it.

Somebody saw me doing a show and they said, Hodren Sutton, they said, oh, would you write a humorous book about single parenting? As if you could in those days. And so when I did the interview. And this is back in the in i think 90s early 90s yeah yeah and so doing interviews with certain disc jockeys and things perfectly well-meaning people you know i mean i don't say anything horrible about anyone it's really important that i don't but they were just baffled like i'd done it on purpose they said well hang on a minute you're advocating being

a single parent but you know why get married in the first place you know it's like no I was I'm just being amusing about the scenario like I would if I you know dressed in green corduroys all the time you know I'm just trying to find the humour in the world that other people hopefully might connect with some of it yeah you also wrote a seminal work on catering um aping something that jane asher had done and i remember jane asher would stand looking pristine as only jane asher can yes with a wonderful inviting plate of canapé called easy entertaining easy entertaining beautiful hardback yours was called uh coping with helen ledger but but that was the but that was the i would like to say,

and you're so right, Jane, thank you for, I don't know, I was either the right person at the wrong time or whichever way round, you know, ahead of my time or behind my time, just a time. But that was a parody. And there hadn't been many parodies. And I wrote that with two other really nice writers,

Roger Planer and Richard O'Brien. And that was just fun oh the joy like you two have i you've written a book i was googling you that book apparently i could there's loads of merchandise to shift on the way i want to get some of some of the many books because it's funny because you enjoy each other what's the name of our book again did i say that out did i say that i was underrated, by the way. I'm going to get one now, like that, because you have fun. You have fun together. I'm going to get one now.

It's a bit late now, Helen. It's free. They are still available. Don't pay full price. We can help you out with that one. But you've had fun working together, and that was a joy of we had a kind of concept, and there wasn't anxiety,

and you're sharing it with other people i enjoyed that process yeah yeah but i have i think you see we have benefited from the path that that women like you have furrowed for us because we're allowed to be self-deprecating without it harming our earning potential and i think that is just a massive, massive change. Yes. So just explain that again. So are you saying how it is for women now? No, people like you, women like you, have made it easier for us to show. Oh, I couldn't take a compliment.

You said a nice thing. I said a very nice thing. And you did, and it didn't land. Because we can show our weaknesses and earn money from that. And I'm not saying that we're milking it, but I'm saying that we're milking it but i'm saying that we're allowed to because i think the world has woken up to the fact that you can be a strong

and independent woman but you can also really feel the vulnerabilities of life and it's okay to show the latter it's not yeah as long as i i take that as long as again it's it it's the authenticity of it that works because if you force it and you just replicate another, oh, we're doing a vulnerable book now, then people will see through that as well. So that's the thing where you can't really, it's either funny or it isn't, even though we all have such prescribed tastes for what's funny.

But no, I'm glad you said, that's cheering. That's cheering. Well, you should be cheering. And we've also had a lovely email from Kathleen, who says, in addition to being a great writer, actress and comedian, Helen is incredibly supportive and encouraging. She founded the Comedy Women in Print Prize in 2019.

I was shortlisted. It led to me getting an agent and eventually published. She even came to my book launch party, despite it taking her hours to get there. And that shows what a cheerleader she is. That's from Kathleen, who also says, P.S. Sorry about the storm. Yeah, well, all right. Thank you, Kathleen. A bit of wit there as well. And a bit of wit. So's from Kathleen, who also says, P.S. Sorry about the storm. Yeah, well, right.

See, a bit of wit there as well. And a bit of wit. So just to let you know, Helen, you are much appreciated. Thank you. Don't think you're not. No, I won't. But I am in the presence of women only living, being a bit vulnerable at times in a humorous manner.

So I'm respectful. Back. Helen Lederer talking about her book, Not That I'm Bitter, which is out on Thursday. And it's a real slice of life and about, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say, Fee, that it was a struggle to be a woman in comedy back when Helen started out in the 1980s.

She's not had it easy. And there's at least one pretty horrifying story in there, if I'm honest, which she deals with rather lightly, but it was pretty grim. But I do, I think it is hilarious that she, she's, I don't know quite how old Helen is. She's not old. The idea that she's of an age now where she can be cast as a love interest for Ken Barlow, who is in his 90s. But he does look quite good on it, Jane.

I know, Jane. Come on. What is quite good in your 90s? I don't know. I suppose he displays the value of certainty, doesn't he, in an uncertain acting profession. You just turn up and basically rehash the same plot line for 60 years. Yeah, I think he's had something like 10,000 girlfriends.

He has had a lot of girlfriends. At the time he's been in Coronation Street, which is a lot, isn't it? It is. But there'll only be one Deirdre. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Ken and Deirdre. I mean, they were the OG, weren't they? Oh, they really were. No, they really were. And actually, Coronation Street has never hit those heights again, not really. Well, a thoughtful note on which to end the podcast today.

It is lovely, genuinely lovely to be back at work. Yes, this is work. And we do speak on the day of a total solar eclipse. So let's hope we come through the other side and can join hands again tomorrow. Yes, let's hope for that. But just leave the dear listeners just with the tiny, you can just do it in a sentence, your anecdotes from your previous experience of solar eclipses. Well, it was a partial eclipse and to my shame, I don't know whether it was solar or moon, lunar.

Yeah. That's the name of my youngest moon, lunar. And it was with former First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon and we were standing on a balcony at the BBC in Glasgow watching this celestial event

which sadly because of the weather in Glasgow neither of us could see oh I tell you what that's one for your memoir honestly I've got such good anecdotes. Such good ones. Okay, don't have my best kids. Goodbye.

Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank thank you for joining us and

we hope you can join us again on off air very soon they'll be so silly running a bank i know lady listener sorry