Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Stay put or shove off! (with Elly Griffiths)

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Jane and Fi are knackered after their Barbican performance and have a newfound respect for those who 'tread the boards.' They chat Nytol, barrister outfits, and the birds and the bees. Plus, crime writer Elly Griffiths discusses her new book, 'The Frozen People'.  The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Listen, the NHS is under enough strain at the moment. Imagine me turning up in A&E at London's beleaguered Charing Cross Hospital and saying... I've never passed wind. Listen, I've got this issue. You're going to have to take me in and you won't discharge me until it's happened. what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on, settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day.

Accessibility, there's more to iPhone. This episode of Off Air is sponsored by Wild Frontiers Travel. Sophie, tell me, where's on your travel bucket list? Well, I would really like to go to much emptier places because I live in the heart of a beating city, so I think Mongolia. Well, with Wild Frontiers Travel, you'll see more with those who know the way. Want to go off the beaten track and away from all the tourist crowds? You got it. From wine tastings in Georgia to epic journeys along the Silk Road, Wild Frontiers provide unforgettable experiences in some of the most incredible places on earth. What's more, with everything taken care of by the experts,

you'll have the freedom to take it all in and the freedom to never stop seeking. So whether you want to travel solo or on one of their small group tours or with family or friends on a private tailor-made trip you can visit wildfrontierstravel.com. Welcome to our giddy old world. It is Wednesday. We hope you missed us yesterday because we missed you. Hang on, you're very loud. But it was lovely to catch up with so many people at the theatre, the Barbican Theatre in London last night. It's a brutalist establishment but it was filled with joy, wasn't it? It really was. So thank you for coming along. Thank you for just kind of playing along as well.

Annabel Croft was our guest. I thought she was lovely, Jane. Just really lovely. Really lovely. And when she talked about her early years on the tennis circuit, from the age of 12 through to about the age of 18, where she was just on her own, often going around America, running for the next Greyhound bus to just get on a bus overnight to get to a tournament,

to play on her own, to then go and do the same thing somewhere else. I mean, it's missing a whole childhood. And no wonder she'd had enough. I think by the time she was 21, she just thought, what's this all about? But how brave to do that, actually, because you've got nothing to fall back on if that's been your teenage life. She's actually, as it happens, she is a truly brilliant commentator and broadcaster. And not every former sports person can do that. There's a kind of, you think almost every sports person turns into a pundit or a commentator.

It's just not true. The vast majority don't and partly they don't because there aren't that many jobs and also most of them can't. And some of them can't and still do. Good evening Alan Shearer. What are you saying? I agree he's not the most bobbly of contributors. I think he's been really shown up by how good some of the other younger ones are. So anyway, sorry. And my apologies to you, Alan. I hope he's listening.

What are the chances? I think we agree quite low. Now, it's just worth saying that I've got my renewed respect for people who tread the boards regularly. Honestly, how do they do that? Because I'm absolutely knackered. Just one night. Just one night. We finished at 9.30. I was home by 25 past 10. Let's just be realistic. But it's, can I just share this with you, a fellow performer?

It's so hard to come down, isn't it? It's sort of, you think, oh, I'm so exhausted, I'll just go to sleep, but you can't quite. It's very weird. The adrenaline is quite buzzing, isn't it? Can I just say, honestly, to everybody who earns their living, treading the boards, hoofing, whatever it might be, being a stand-up comedian, God knows how you find the courage to do that. And we've got Jo Brand with us on Sesto Night, haven't we, when we do it all again. She can talk about all of this. Well she can because perhaps she'll

give us some advice on how to get over a night on stage. Well I mean most performers say that that's exactly why there's such a high rate of drinking drugs and nefarious late night activity. I did have a small bowl of an extremely sugary French breakfast cereal. Oh my god, Jane. With full fat milk. Really? When you came in? And then I turned in.

Okay. Right, I just had a couple of mouthfuls of what my son had cooked for dinner, straight from a Tupperware box from the fridge. It was delicious. It was kind of a creamy chicken thing. And then half a night all, whoop, whoop! And then bed. I don't think you're gonna gonna get a

misery memoir out of this for you. Half a night all. Herbal night all or the other one? No full fat. To be used in emergencies yeah because I just thought I won't be able to sleep and I don't know whether you do this thing but I run things over in my head. Oh god. Most of the second half. Yeah you relive and think well how much of a tool did I sound in that one. But it doesn't matter because at one point I was impersonating a member of the royal family and that's wrong and I shouldn't have done it. Well no because Lottie says thank you for an entertaining and thought-provoking night at the Barbican.

Jane Surreal Turners, a somewhat age-confused Princess Margaret, set me off on spontaneous giggles on the walk back from the station. Can this be a regular feature please?" Possibly not. Anyway, it was lovely if you came. We hugely appreciate it. But very boring if you didn't and you don't want to... Yeah, and we will stop talking about it. But I think the thing that we did realise in the room is just how much we all just want to carry on whatever it is that we're doing here.

Because it's a nice feeling, Jane, and it is quite important, isn't it, in the world? Because as you said on stage, you go to bed at the moment thinking, I wonder what that plonker over in America has said. And boy, did he deliver this morning on Waking Up with his new selling Gaza program idea, which is just so mind-boggling. And it's good to be in a room full of people where you can talk about it openly and I feel that we did. Yes we did and it was cathartic. Yeah. And it is a community and we are really just so chuffed that lots of you feel the same. That's what it really is all about. Just a quick word about Barbara who, I can't believe this,

she says here it's 9.20 on Monday night on the Causeway coast. I'm about to go to bed as I've got an exciting day tomorrow. The alarm is set for four. I need to leave at five for the car journey to the airport. Next stop Gatwick for the long-awaited visit to the Barbican. My mother always said that going to London made her feel like Flossie from the Moss, and this resonated so much with my children that one of them bought me a luggage tag with that inscription. I worked in New Bond Street for a time in my youth, I mean that's very very central London isn't it, isn't it, very posh. And my parents came to visit me in my very sophisticated, as I thought, place of work.

I looked up from my desk to see two happy smiling faces, but I was horrified to note that they were wearing their Sunday best suits, which my mother had accessorized with a hat. I mean, that's, but that's because she was proud of you, Barbara, and she wanted to see you in your place of work. And I know you know that, but I think that's because she was proud of you Barbara and she wanted to see you in your place of work and I know you know that but I think that's really touching. She says I'm ashamed to say I was so embarrassed and I hurriedly organised early lunch to get them off the premises.

I do know what Barbara means but we also all know what her mum was doing. Yeah. But I hear you and also I love your name obviously. Can we just say quick hello to Joshi and baby Raffi. Joshi and I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, I'll give you a Yoshi just in case. They wanted to come last night but baby Raffi is really a true baby, seven weeks old and sometimes that is just such an overwhelming time. The idea that you might be able to actually leave the room that you're in to go somewhere else is enough of a trial, let alone getting to the Barbican. So your friend

Hannah and her partner Hugh took the tickets and we definitely, definitely will do some more shows and hopefully you'll be able to come along to those. And thank you to Naomi for the Christmas pudding and the other goodies in that bag, that was much appreciated. And we've got now both proud owners of a Windlesham Primary School tote bag. And we have got the catalogue, Knick Knacks for Dickheads, which is going to keep us going for many, many future episodes. That is my bedtime reading tonight, but I'm already quite taken.

What are you drawn to? Well, I'm quite taken to the flexi-grip honeycomb structure of the cushion that transforms even the most uncomfortable chair into a supportive pain relieving seat and I could do with one of those actually. It's quite hideous but it might do the trick. Right and to Ruth thank you so much for your bag of French goodies. Right and to Ruth, thank you so much for your bag of French goodies. Absolutely fantastic. Stain remover, always a joy, but just as lovely, some milk or chocolate. And I did bring a bar into work today because our colleagues deserve it. Plus, none of them want to hear about last night, they weren't there. I think Fian and I were a little surprised to hear that none of them had bought tickets.

They didn't even want the comp tickets. Well, exactly, it's almost like they feel they get enough at work. Quite heartbreaking and you may laugh Eve, but you know, we haven't forgotten and we won't forget. And like little elephants our memories will be long. Morning ladies, says slightly controlling Susan, my bra rotation is washing every three wears unless intense exercise has been taken once in a blue moon in brackets. I manage this with three pairs of matching knickers for each bra. Okay, so you've got the bra at the top just waiting for its every three wear wash and

underneath that you've got three pairs of knickers, which presumably are being washed every time. I do hope so, Susan. Slightly controlling Susan says that she's been doing this since her late teens. Seat attached and it's a very, very neat pile there, Jane, of just the three bras and then the accompanying knickers. Who's part of the world is she in? She's in East Dulwich. Oh.

Ooh. Classy, classy lady. It is though, isn't it, over there? It is, it's very nice. Is that what they call Nappy Valley? I don't know. I think it is one of London's Nappy Valleys. I always thought Nappy Valley was Wandsworth.

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. All right, tell us. Tell us if you know. Fran says, on the subject of randomly bumping into people you know, I bumped into my sister once at Euston Station while she was living in Surrey and I was in Leicester. The meeting was awkward because I was on my own, 18, and on my way to Greece. But I told our mum I was going with someone so she wouldn't have to worry about it.

She wasn't going with anybody. Fran says the inevitable happened and I had a fling with a Greek policeman. That's not inevitable, Fran! Do you have to do that when you go to Greece? Did you do that when you went to Greece last summer? I'm not even sure that I saw anybody. I was on a fairly remote island but I wasn't aware of a police presence. Well maybe they were all a bit busy. They were all off with Fran. I just, I love that sentence Fran, thank you so much.

Mum's never found out apparently. Well, is it too late to alert the Greek authorities? I don't know, they're too busy taking down evidence that may be used against you. Dr Caroline Houlihan-Byrne has not passed wind for a while either. There we are. I am not alone. My reason for emailing is I can now identify with Jane's lack of wind. Caroline also was going to be joining us last night with her two bestest friends from medical school Emma and Amanda but she had to have her appendix out in the early hours of Monday morning which is a bit weird because at 53 I thought I'd dodged that

bullet. Well do you know what I was I'm gonna have to put having the appendix out back on the list of things that might happen and therefore I should worry about at 3 a.m. I too thought once you got to your 50s you were presumably your appendix just kind of given up inside you anyway. Yeah, which I mean this is from a medical doctor, this email. I believe so. Yeah, the appendix, I mean does anyone really understand why, they don't do anything do they, apart from give you jib? I thought they did collect some kind of bits and pieces in your body.

My mum always used to tell me that I couldn't swallow my chewing gum because it would end up in my appendix and like a dustbin that's how she described it and then eventually it would become so full I'd have to have it taken out. I don't think that's strictly true. You think it's not true? Well I'm going to say I'm not entirely certain that's correct. But look she's having a very difficult time now Dr Caroline Hulahan-Byrne because having been previously what I would consider to be a normally healthy fatter, since surgery my guts have gone to sleep and not a single pop has passed. I find myself in a strange position, willing my body to pass wind has not allowed home until I do so, hoping the stewed prunes for breakfast help. Oh so she's still in hospital?

Yes. Oh I'm sorry, right, well I hope you get better soon and you're out of there having passed wind. Yes. Gosh, maybe I should just go to hospital and just stay there. Yeah, why don't we? The NHS is under enough strain at the moment. Imagine me turning up in A&E at London's beleaguered Charing Cross Hospital and saying, I've never passed wind.

Listen, I've got this issue. You're going to have to take me in and won't you won't discharge me until it's happened. Right, we occasionally ramble on about television programmes we've enjoyed and um this is from a listener who says I love your meandering chat, why has nobody recommended The Split? I've taken to watching BBCs, I cannot buy the ads. Right, okay, it's mesmerizing, it's a story about divorce lawyers getting divorced. Great script. Well that's by Abby Morgan, isn't it, the split? Have you seen it?

I started watching it because it's Stephen Mangan and Nicola Walker, isn't it, which is an amazing cast. And I can't remember why I stopped. But did you watch, there was a special wasn't there at Christmas in Barcelona. No, no, okay. I had never seen it but I saw the Barcelona episodes being advertised at Christmas and thought well that looks and it's got some of my favourite people in it. So maybe I should just start. So I've gone back and I'm now in the second series. I mean it's, I love Abby Morgan, she's been a guest hasn't she? Yeah and she's just a really good woman and I think she's so talented. I mean this is a funny show in the sense that the kitchen is just huge and immaculate. Do you

remember it? They've got three kids but there's never anything out of place, a massive kitchen island and they drink like there's no tomorrow and then they apparently they report for work like the whole and they're always having parties. Yeah, it doesn't happen like that in the real world. In a nanosecond they've decided to throw yet another party at the family home and it's absolutely palatial this place they've got. Well I think you do earn quite a lot as a divorce lawyer, you're quite busy. Is it common? Is it common?

Divorce. I think it's quite a smart thing to do personally, but yes, I believe it does happen. And then they're either at home having a party or they're always immaculately dressed, that's the other thing. I watch it partly for the great clothes everybody wears in the office. Do you know what, there's so much to be said for that. The legal profession on television, I think, has done really well because they always do look terrific. So if you think all the way back to LA law,

they were always in these power suits, you know, just strutting around and looking good. Looking good as lawyers. Yes, and I'm going to say, I'm going to venture to suggest that in the real world, perhaps you don't always prioritise your appearance if you're appearing at the Old Bailey or indeed in a family court somewhere. Well, I mean you basically get to wear a cloak, don't you, as well? Yes.

If you're a barrister, and you don't have to do your hair because you can put one of those wigs on. Maybe we should start that for broadcasters. We should have a little uniform. Maybe we could turn up, we could create some kind of Times Radio scrubs. And everybody in the studio has to wear them. Yeah, and it would make us all, well, it would make us feel a lot happier. Thank you for that recommendation. I agree. She can't do Call the Midwife. It terrible trite rubbish yikes gosh. Well that's... If you might agree I don't. That's putting it out there. No as I've said before

it's not it's it's not what how it's done yeah I know it's what it's what it's about but I do find it very funny at the moment in Call the Midwife if anyone has any ailment you know you can sometimes wait let's be honest months to see a consultant in the NHS back in Call Call the Midwife land, you only have to see Dr Turner for a two minute appointment and you're straight down at St Cuthbert's Hospital and you're with a specialist before the episode is out. Well I think this is what West Reading refers to when it says we regard the NHS as a cult. I think it's been given that weird status as well throughout time. St's a cult but is that what you think the hospital should be called?

What was the kind of dreamy doctor thing that Martin Clunes was in for years where he just... Doc Martin. There you go. Well he drove around doing home visits, like there was no tomorrow, no temporary traffic lights, no calls for concern, no alarming number of patients on his books. I mean that was the whole thing, wasn't it? I guess so. Well no, because his character was quite a complicated man who, they never directly said it, but he was, he was on the spectrum I think. I think that was the point. On the spectrum you say?

I think so. I think, was he? I don't know. I didn't watch that. I only saw it once or twice. Okay. Welcome to Jane and Fee Discuss TV. Lovely setting down there in Cornwhackers. Although, wasn't it filmed in Devon and everyone going... Anyway, look, let's not cause more offence.

We've got one incoming from Glyn, we always like hearing from Glyn, he sends us some very funny emails. This is quite serious though. As an aside to Dave Lamb's description of odd meals served on Come Dine with Me. My dad has dementia and struggles with the vocabulary for food and meals. Recent answers to the questions, what have you had to eat today have included. This is quite brilliant actually, Glyn, isn't it? The round meal, which is pizza, vegetation, which is salad,

and Glyn's personal favourite meat trifle which is cottage pie and he says think about it and it kind of makes sense. It does make sense. It does doesn't it? Yeah. Yep. So that's quite lovely and profound actually isn't it? I love it the round meal. Yeah. Pizza, that's what it is. Yeah absolutely. Glyn thank you you. And yes, I mean, we don't want to treat this, because the subject is an extremely serious one, but it's actually quite good to hear about some of the more light-hearted elements of going through this experience in the family. Yeah. So thank you, Glyn. Have you seen the email from Annabelle about educating boys? No, go for it. It's quite interesting. My son has been taught repeatedly about how to

recognise an abusive relationship during his PSHE lessons and I keep asking whether they've mentioned how to recognise a healthy relationship but as yet nothing. He's due to leave school in the summer so I wonder whether that ship has sailed. I think that's quite interesting. I don't have any recent experience of PSHE lessons, although my children certainly had them, but she goes on to say, with regard to sex education, I found my three go-to phrases have opened a more positive conversation with my son and his friends. My opening humdinger was, what's wrong with a wank? Well that is a humdinger isn't it around teenage boys? That was the opener that I felt the need to deploy after overhearing a particularly depressing

anecdote that they were discussing. I guess it probably isn't a bad way of shall we say making it clear that that kind of subject is open for discussion? I don't know, what do you think? I think you're absolutely right to use their language because I think as soon as you start using your own language or perhaps the language that you feel more comfortable with but not necessarily how you speak all the time, I think that does help. speak all the time. I think that does help. I think we're all a bit... we all go a bit

weird when talking about sex with our kids. I think rightly so. Well yes, because you don't want it to be such a comfortable conversation that... I mean I can't watch things like Love Island with my kids because it's embarrassing for everybody because who wants to have that kind of shared conversation? But I admire parents who can just sally forth with something direct. Well Annabelle's got a lot on her plate because she's also recently taken delivery of this gigantic dog. Oh my god yes I did see that dog. Do you know, the dog, we need one of those, this is the size of the cushions because if they're normal size cushions and that dog is, the dog's head is the size of a normal Oxford pillowcase. I mean it looks a little bit

like a small pony and I don't mean that. It's beautifully groomed. Lovely, lovely thing. We don't have the name though, Annabel. So tell us what you call the dog, because it's one of these very sad stories where the dog was supposed to be a miniature breed, but when he grew to the proportions of a small pony, oh, she says that's probably where I got it from, the family were terrified of him.

And so as a result, he spent the first 20 months of his life in a tiny kennel. Oh, that's really, I'm sad to hear that. Happily though, he's now with you. She says he has a lot to learn, needs to put on some weight. And at the moment, walking him on the lead is proving to be quite the upper body workout. Well, as we know, Annabel from her previous topic

that she emailed in about is a plain speaker. So I think she'll be more than able to handle the dog. But please do tell us what the boy is a boy is called. Right. Sally is in South Africa at Mosul Bay. A friend of 78 was undressing when her three-year-old great-grandson wandered in. Gram asked the little chap why are your boobs upside down? That's just rude. chap why are your boobs upside down? That's just rude. Oh dear. And Reethy Darling has been in touch. We always like hearing from Reethy as well. Compound interest, US versus UK. Right, pay attention everybody, it's important. In 2019 I succumbed to the Headicraft capitalism

and found myself in my first ever full-time job in New York. Well it comes to everybody in the end doesn't it? You hope it does. About six months in and I was given a performance-based bonus of around 5k, $3,500 after tax. I'd never received a work bonus so I toddled off to Fidelity, the bank, check in hand, asked if I could invest this into the stock market or something. Yes those were the actual words I used. So clueless am I on anything finance related. A lovely bloke took me into his office, don't worry, he did in fact work there, didn't laugh at me, and explained I could put the money into one of their own funds and they would manage it for me. All I had to do was decide how much risk I was willing to take. So, blblblbl, cut to the end of the story,

my $3,500 has turned into $32,000. I wouldn't know the name of this fella. In six years. Right. With little to no input from me. Not life-changing money obviously, but here's the interesting part. It's not a bad bit of money, is it? Life-helping.

Yeah. When I tried to replicate this process with Fidelity UK, my experience was totally different. They told me I could only be put into a fund if I were to invest £100,000, otherwise I was on my own. Click, phone disconnected. It seems in the UK you can only receive financial advice if you've got oodles of money. The exact people who don't need the bloody help. It's infuriating. This may shed some light on why many of us feel afraid of investing in the UK. The banks simply don't care about the little guy, whereas in the US they're like, hey money is money, come aboard.

The email is in no way meant to defend the cesspit that is America but in this case they're much more egalitarian so credit where begrudging credit is due. Well that's really interesting Ruthie and actually I've got no way of knowing what the barriers to entry might be for that particular company and I might do a little bit of digging in my own time Eve, don't you worry about it. Really? Yeah. But actually when we've talked about money, because we talked about female investing before, there has been a barrier to entry of about £10,000 before you can put your money into the kind of funds that promise they're going to do loads of work and make you that kind of return. So yeah, I don't know whether you can get a very decent return if you just go along with a small amount of money. I mean,

to me actually, are you okay? Yes. $3,500 is not a small amount of money. I know it's not huge, but you would have thought it was worth somebody's time taking that on and obviously it's turned into $32,000, which is definitely worth the break of this time. I can't believe that you wouldn't be given a warm welcome somewhere in the UK if you had that amount of money to invest. So anyway, tell us, there will be people listening who know a lot more than we do about this. It is worth saying though that we do have a personal finance slot, don't we? Yes. And it's on a Monday afternoon at around about a quarter to four with our friend, the personal finance journalist, Adam Shaw.

And it's always very good. And actually we're learning lots, aren't we? Yeah, well we are. But we're not financial. We need to make clear. We are not financial advisors. And we're not actually qualified in anything, Jane. Well I think, no, if somebody had a question about classical civilisation, they could ask you. What was that phrase you used the other day about poly... I'm still thinking about it. Polytheistic. Yes, I mean you don't get that on loads of podcasts. So don't do yourself down. Well that's very kind of you.

Right, you're waiting for me to say something nasty aren't you? But I'm not going to. I am going to move on to another Annabelle. How many Annabelles are out there? Annabelle heavy today but you're all welcome. Used to be Claire, we've moved on to Annabelle. Is that, what do you think, is that going up? I don't know, we were meant to ask how many Claire's were in the audience last night weren't we? Because there is a theory that more Claire's listen to this podcast than any other podcast. I don't know why. It's quite possibly true. This Annabel says, I'm catching up on yesterday's

podcast. My parents at the Rhyport age of 82, this is lovely, were lucky enough to be invited to the Vienna Philharmonic New Year's Day concert. That's a regular thing, it's been going for a long, long time, hasn't it? Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do But I digress. My mother wore an emerald green dress to the concert and was featured on camera a number of times during the concert, which is televised to 50 million viewers worldwide. Nonetheless, she was absolutely gobsmacked when she was approached in her local Sainsbury's in Cheltenham last week by a total stranger who said to her, you were at the New Year's concert, weren't you? And you were wearing that beautiful green dress. I recognise you. My mother was not wearing the aforementioned green dress that day in Sainsbury's

and I'm not sure what shocked her more, the fact that the woman recognised her or that the woman felt confident enough to talk to my mum. Either way, she was absolutely delighted and said it gave her a real lift. That's great. So that just shows you, I mean, well done to the woman who recognised Annabel's mum. I think they're probably very clever and observant and chelt them.

Oh yes, it could have gone on with one of those. They probably have big TVs as well, so you're seeing people large. Would you think it would be as big as my 50-inch? I'm still enjoying it hugely. Are you? It does make a difference to football, makes a difference to sport, I've noticed. I'm seeing enjoying it hugely. Are you? It does make a difference to football. It makes a difference to sport, I've noticed. I'm seeing a lot more. Yeah. And do you feel a little bit guilty still?

Do you feel a bit vulgar? I do feel vulgar. Thank you for saying that. But as I've said before, it doesn't go on before seven, unless I catch the very end of A Place in the Sun. That's all I'm saying. I'd really like to meet somebody if there is indeed this person out there who's actually bought a house on A Place in the Sun,

Escape to the Sun, or Location, Location, Location, or Love It or List It. I don't understand the format of Love It or List It. Well Love It or List It, which I quite like, is whether you stay in your home or whether you go somewhere else but the title they've just gone for a Literation because they obviously needed a literation for the title doesn't really work No, but but also Jane so so Phil Spencer goes and shows he's always on the Listed team isn't he he goes and shows lots and lots of properties to these people entice them entice them away Yeah And Kirsty stays at home

and knocks on a partition wall and says that can come down and they build an extension but then they go back six months later and say are you going to love it or list it well the properties that Phil Spencer showed them around won't still be on the market no i mean they should just you're so right by the way i mean that's just completely destroyed a successful tv format that's been running for many many years what would happen jane if a person did go and look at a very nice property with a low level WC and a nice west-facing sunny aspect and said yes I'd like to buy this, let's not bother fannying around with 75,000 pounds of building work, oh you can't put that there, the RSJ is too big and we're just going to buy this lovely house that Phil's found for us.

Well, I mean, that's your gripe with the whole show and you've nailed it, but I just think it should be called Stay Put or Shove Off. That's a much better title. That's the Channel 5 version. Probably. And you should present it. Thank you. Our friend Alexis Conrad is very much the star of Channel 5 with his many documentaries on air fryers and his most recent one was about a heat pump. Still available on My5.

As you're listening to me, Daisy, Apple's iPhone disassembly robot, is dismantling an iPhone into lots of recyclable parts. That's how Apple recovers more materials than conventional recycling methods. Thanks Daisy, there's more to iPhone. Right, let's bring in our guest, one of my favourite writers, the truly brilliant Ellie Griffiths. Ellie Griffiths is big. She's probably not, she's not known to everybody clearly, but those who love her books really do. I'm one of them. Her new book is called The Frozen People and it's the first one in what will be a series of books about time travelling detectives. The sub line here, the sub, what do they call it? The blurb? Some murders can't be solved in just one lifetime. That's what

it says on the Frozen People cover. The book, by the way, is out on the 13th of February. Ellie is the author of the much loved Dr Ruth Galloway series. These books are about a forensic archaeologist in Norfolk. She also wrote The Brighton Mysteries, featuring Detective Inspector Edgar Stevens and the magician Max Mephisto. Mephisto? Mephisto? Yes. Yes, not Mephisto. She's got a mouthful so she can't correct me, which actually is brilliant. In The Frozen People we're introduced to another of Ellie's really sparky female characters. This is a detective called Ali Dawson and the book starts with Ali reporting for duty at a pretty non-descript London office building where she works for the top secret Department of Logistics. Now, nobody really what goes on there, apart from the Prime Minister who is a bit dubious about the merits of time travel

as a way of solving crimes. Now I've been a fan of Ellie's for years so I was shocked to discover that her real name is something else entirely and she actually started off as a writer of romantic fiction. No, so my real name is Domenica de Rosa. If you want to give it the full Italian Domenica de Rosa. It's my dad was Italian, it means Sunday of the Rose. And I've got to say when I was growing up, I did think I always wanted to be a writer. And I just thought that Domenica de Rosa would be my biggest asset because what a writery name. Huge asset. You know, and I practiced my signature with a big D and the big R and all that. And I was published first as Domenica de Rosa after

lots of rejections and all the things that writers have. was published first as Domenica De Rosa after lots of rejections and all the things that writers have. I was published as Domenica De Rosa, wrote four books kind of about Italy, family, relationships, that sort of thing. And then I wrote a crime novel and my then agent said to me, oh, she said you need a crime name. A crime name. A crime name. I think the thinking was that Domenica de Rosa sounded romantic, but also that it sounded made up. So I think my agent wanted me to make up a name that sounded more real than my real name.

And you actually chose a family name of sorts, didn't you? Yes, yes. So my dad was Italian, my mum was British and her mum was Welsh and she was called Ellen Griffiths. So I chose Ellen Griffiths and I think everyone was pleased with that because it's quite gritty, isn't it? Griffiths is quite gritty. I hadn't thought of it that way but yes I suppose so. Quite crimy. Yeah, I mean your late grandmother presumably didn't know anything, doesn't know anything about this. No, really sadly she died when I was very young when I was about five so I didn't know her and I think somewhere she had quite a hard life.

But the one thing I'd always heard about her was that she was a very clever woman very literate, very literate, very keen on books but she'd had to leave school at 13 and go into service so I thought she'd really love if she could ever know to have her name on a book. But now her name lives on in bookshops all over the world I mean how brilliant is that? And actually, based just purely on having just finished The Frozen People this morning, let's not rule out the possibility that she does know exactly what's happened. Time can be a strange thing. Yes, which brings us on to The Frozen People. Now, those of us who have loved your other stuff,

what I really enjoy is your central female characters who are just the right side of prickly. They've made cock-ups. They're far from physically perfect. There's just a brilliant ambivalence about them and they've got these independent streaks about how they live their lives. Did you set out to do that deliberately? Because Ali Dawson is the lead character in this new book and Dr Ruth Gallowayay who is a forensic archaeologist is the star of your books about Dr. Ruth Galloway. That's really the nicest thing you could have said about the characters and I did I think when I thought of Ruth and of having her as a central character for a crime series, I did think about wanting to make a very real, you know, and so when it came to writing this new series, when I had the idea and always had this little idea of writing about a time travelling detective,

and I thought this series will kind of live or die on whether people believe in the characters. Because if you think about if you think about Life on Mars, you know, Ashes to Ashes, that amazing TV series, I don't remember why they time travelled, do you? Or how? No, I don't. But I do remember the characters. I remember Gene Hunt, that kind of awful, wonderful, monster character. Yes, Philip Glenister.

Philip Glenister. Yes, and John Simm is well amazing in it. So those characters are what you bring away. So I did know that if people were going to buy a crime novel that had time travel in it, they were going to have to really buy into the characters. Well, I did. Good. So I hope that reassures you.

And what is so interesting is all the details of, so let's just, without giving any spoilers away, Ali Dawson, for reasons that are explained in the book, is a detective working in a secret department, the existence of which is known only to the Prime Minister and one or two other people. And it's about, don't laugh, you wrote this, Shelley, it's about going back in time. Sounds great. To solve crimes. Now some people will say, well, that's not my kind of book. I'm here to tell them it is your kind of book because you make it seem entirely plausible. And you also take us back to Victorian London.

Now I've lived in London for, I suppose, now most of my life. I do love it. And I'm also a bit scared of it because it's been here a long time and you turn a corner and you see something and you think oh this could be I could be anywhere in the last 400 500 years. Are you a Londoner? I was born in London yes I was born in London then we moved to Brighton but then I was at university in London and lived lived there for about 10 years so I guess I'm sort of a Londoner. I was born here and I love London, but absolutely exactly what you say.

I love that kind of those kind of layers of it. And I remember learning that there's a whole layer of London called the Budokan destruction layer, where Budokan sort of came in on her chariot and burnt it all down. So the idea that that's still there and it's in waiting to be discovered. There's that whole layer of it. And there's there's Rome in London, there's medieval London, there's the bit of London that burnt down in the great fire of London and there's Victorian London

which is just there. Often if you look up, have you noticed that when you look up at the tops of buildings, they seem to belong to a different era. So I wanted to kind of, I feel in a way that you're time travelling just when you walk through London. So I wanted to kind of bring that into the book. Well, you do it absolutely brilliantly. And you also recreate aspects of Victorian England that I hadn't thought of, hygiene

or lack of it. I mean, and emptying your privy. Sorry, empty, what did you call it? The chamber pot, yes. Into the privy. Yeah, into the you call it? The chamber pot, yes. The chamber pot, into the privy. Yeah, into the privy, yes. Right, tell me about that. I love that because I thought again that if I wanted to write this story which, you know,

possibly has a slightly preposterous suggestion that Allie Dawson travels in time, if people wanted to believe it, they'd have to believe in her and they'd have to believe in the kind of nitty gritty of it. So I did really love it, you know, researching that, finding out what they did, you know, how they emptied the privy, what they did, how they washed, did they have toothpaste, you know, what did they do? They had sort of a dentifreeze thing, but it was not a toothpaste as we know. How they washed, they would kind of have a stand-up wash just with soap and water. And there are some amazing, how many, the number of petticoats that poor Ali has to wear to go back, because it was before the crinoline, which actually we think of the crinoline as being very restrictive,

but actually I think it was less restrictive because it kept the petticoats away from your body and you didn't have all these massive layers, one of which would have been possibly horse hair. Yeah, not appealing in any way. Not appealing and just fascinating thinking of getting dressed, getting undressed, how do you do your hair, all these things I really enjoyed finding out about. And stuff like if the posher you were, the later you could eat in the day because you had access to candles.

Yes, exactly and candles and going around in carriages and how they sort of moon-nouve at that at night and whether it was dependent on there being a full moon. Yes, candles obviously was super important. Yeah, but if you didn't have the money to buy them, you ate as early as possible. Yes, you absolutely did. So later eating was restricted to the richer households. Yeah, and the stuff that Ali is obliged to eat at the place she finds herself living when she goes back in time, there was a stuff called something called clanker. Oh yes, yes that was a kind of roll actually, it didn't sound too bad, it's a bit like

a sort of Cornish pasty that's sweet stuff at one end and savoury at the other end. So full meal. Yeah sort of like a full meal, yes, because working people didn't really have time to stop for lunch so that would have been something that they might have eaten yes and coffee I mean she suffers from not being able to drink coffee and there were little coffee stores who could buy a cup on the street but who knows who drunk from them before so that was all quite fun. Wow I mean I'm Greg's by the way will be on to that idea of combining you know then they will I mean they'll sell it for three quid and people will absolutely love it. Clank her.

Yeah, bring the clanker back. Yes, and she misses, let's just be honest about this, I was, because I, it would happen to me, she misses her phone. Yeah. She really does, because when you wake up in the morning, I think we all, it's the first thing we do. Yes, and I try, as Ali tries not to be too addicted to my phone, but I clearly am. But one of the things she does do is read. She rediscovers reading and she rediscovers Charles Dickens,

who was obviously a contemporary writer at the time, still writing. And I have to say, in book two, she actually meets him. Oh, good. Okay, but don't, please don't. No spoilers. You know I'm going to read it. Yes, I didn't know that Dickens himself was interested in time travel. Really interested. And we think about it. A Christmas Carol is a time travel book, it's a time slip book. He goes back in time and sees himself young,

Scrooge goes back in time and sees himself young and Dickens wrote some really, really interesting books about it. There's another one where he talks about the revolving years, you know, a short story where he talks about the, I think it's called Laidlaw's Bargain, I can't remember the exact title of it, but he talks about the revolving years and seeing things reflected in candlelight and there's a chair in Pickwick papers that can take you back in time, so he really was interested in all these ideas, I mean he was interested in everything really. Do you, with your completely rational head on, do you rule out time travel? I probably do. I think the human mind is an interesting thing. I think we can have very, very strong feelings of deja vu and who can explain that really? So I think there are

things, I think there are more things in heaven and earth than I dreamt of in our philosophy, but possibly I would rule out travelling to 1850. I don't think I could bear it because partly because of the lack of shampoo. Lack of shampoo, all those clothes, the corset. The lack of the vote. Yes, the lack of the vote and the woman's lot generally was pretty terrible. But also some really interesting things to be there at the time when there were massive

discoveries and it was a time of Darwin and the time of Marx, the time of all these all these sort of challenging the norms and challenging ideas that had been there a long time so I think that aspect would have been great in the Industrial Revolution and a bit noisy, but a bit dark and satanic, but also very interesting. Yeah and what I really take from this book and indeed from your other stuff is the idea that how dare we as a people take ourselves seriously when we're just here now and in 150 years time, which is nothing, we will be totally irrelevant. Our ways and our methods will be mocked. Yes. And, but there's the idea that we're still so arrogant somehow. How dare we be?

Yes, I think that's a really good take on it. My husband's an archaeologist, which is possibly why I have written 15 books about an archaeologist. I was going to ask how much he helped you and then I thought that might be a sexist question but seriously he does help. Well he does and he's introduced me to other archaeologists, particularly a woman archaeologist called Lindsay Harvey has helped me a lot. But actually that does, I was just thinking that being married to an archaeologist does give you that perspective because, for example, less than 10,000 years ago we were attached to Europe. It's not that long ago. Don't bring up Brexit again. No this is not a Brexit point.

Or maybe it is. Italian roots. Well absolutely. Ellie Griffiths not her real name but she is the author of some truly fantastic books. Jane Griffiths loves the fact that Griffiths is now officially gritty. That's what Ellie Griffiths' publisher told her, use Griffiths for crime. And what else have we got here? Oh yeah, Kieran asks if you can go back in time to solve murders could you not also prevent the murder in the first place? And that is where the laws of physics and time travel all becomes incredibly complicated and Ellie did say in that conversation that déjà vu is actually time travel. Do you get déjà vu?

I do sometimes. Well you had that thing in Bromley didn't you? I feel a bit weird when I go to Bromley. Well no, I mean because you've mentioned it quite a few times and clearly it is something that's real to you. I feel that I've been there before in a different life. Right. So The Frozen People by Ellie Griffiths is out on February the 13th, as you may have gathered from my rather breathless style during that conversation. I'm a big fan, but honestly...

Are you a fan, Jane? I think it was very hard to tell over the last half an hour. Those books are amazing. So her books, so that's called The Frozen People, are they set in time or are they current? Well this is the first one in a new series, as was explained in the interview, but what she does is she creates these hugely successful series of books. What she really succeeds at is making you feel, it's a little bit like the off-air community, like you feel like you're in with a gang of friends that you meet and meet again.

So she's got Dr. Ruth Galloway, then she's got the Brighton mysteries, and now she's got the detective, the time-traveling detective, Ali Dawson. And I know people pull a face when you talk about time travel. What she really excels at is making it seem entirely plausible

because she doesn't use highfalutin crazy imagery. She makes you feel that actually it's entirely reasonable to stand on a particular place on a London pavement and go back 175 years. Honestly, and also it's actually in many ways, this is a kind of love story to London and how it's evolved over the years and some things have changed beyond all recognition

and other things are exactly the same. Bakerloo line. This is it. Yes. It's been the same for 200 years. Northern line's not brilliant either. Okay, so if people were going to dive into Ellie Griffith, should they start right at the very beginning?

Would you not really understand the connection? Well, this is a whole new series so you could start this right from the beginning. But doesn't, isn't your point that it's a whole new series but one of the characters is part of... No, this is a new character. Okay. If you want to start, start where I did which is with the first book in the Dr Ruth Galloway mysteries. It's called The Crossing Places. Just start with that and see if you like it because what she does, and this is set, those books, the Ruth Galloway books are set in the present, but they are about archaeology as much as anything and about the discovery of

bones and hinges and how things, particularly in this country, are so poorly understood about who used to live here, how they lived, what they got up to and how we just don't pay enough attention to what's beneath us. Sounds good. Just on the subject of books, Eight Months on Gaza Street by Hilary Mantel is our book club book. We hope you're enjoying it. Even if you aren't enjoying it, stick with it as far as you can and join in our conversation which won't be until the end of February because I'm off for half term. Eve is off on very much a round the world trip basically. Oh, God.

I know, she's away for weeks. Into March. You're thinking to March. Into March. I'm thinking to March. This is to make allowances for Eve. Well, I'm not making allowances for her. She could have come last night. She's had a three week break. This is just in defence of my cooking. Hello Jane and Fee from a sometime emailer called Julie. I just have to comment on the note of surprise in

Fee's references to Jane serving lettuce with roast chicken and gravy. As a teenager on a school trip to France, I remember being served roast meat and gravy on a bed of lettuce. Having said that, I do think the lettuce may have been braised. It was unexpected but quite delicious. If it's good enough for the French chain, just embrace your hidden cordon bleu skills. Thank you very much. I haven't braised lettuce in living memory, so I wouldn't even know how to go about it actually. How would one... Well I think you'd find a little bit of stock and you'd just put it on for a while. I'm sure it would be a goner within nanoseconds, wouldn't it?

Well I would have thought so, but sometimes a lettuce heart is really quite robust. On that note, we wish you a very good evening. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

This episode of Off Air is sponsored by Wild Frontiers Travel. Sophie, tell me, where's on your travel bucket list? Well, I would really like to go to much emptier places because I live in the heart of a beating city, so I think Mongolia. Well, with Wild Frontiers Travel, you'll see more with those who know the way. Want to go off the beaten track and away from all the tourist crowds? You got it. From wine tastings in Georgia... ...to epic journeys along the Silk Road, Wild Frontiers provide unforgettable experiences

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