Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Steady yourself against something firm (with Tracy-Ann Oberman)

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Jane's got some time to kill, so she and Fi are asking what the point of shopping is, talking about how to break into a so-called tight-knit community, and coming up with a very unusual version of Kafka's Metamorphosis. They're joined by actor Tracy-Ann Oberman to talk about her starring role as Shylock in The Merchant of Venice 1936.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

now we've finished having a private conversation which can't be broadcast welcome no welcome to the podcast welcome to the podcast yep uh and in fact can i just say this is a sincerity warning yes that i know i know it's horrible uh but we've had so many great emails. We honestly could read out every single one we had over the weekend. So I'm so sorry that we're not going to be able to. But there's good news coming. We've got an email special this week that we will record on Thursday. So if you don't hear your missive between now and then, don't give up.

No, don't give up. I mean, you probably couldn't care less whether it's read out or not. But if you do care, please don't think we've ignored you because we absolutely. And it'll be that will be released on Friday. It'll be released. Released into the ether. Into the wild. Now, I've got a couple of announcements to make.

Number one, I met Lorna at Euston Station on Friday. How is Lorna? Lorna's all right. She was, like me, slightly harassed visiting an elderly parent in Liverpool. So she was doing the dart up to the North West on Friday morning. But it was lovely to meet her. And Laura, a completely

different person, is listening in Antigua. Laura, I saw your mum at Pilates. Right, there you go. That's it now. I've got nothing else to contribute. Okay. I had a little mild criticism. Bring. I had a little mild criticism. Bring it. From a listener quite close who objected to you saying that my mum had moved up to Scotland

to get away from me. Sorry about that. The exact words used. What did she say? Actually, I can't repeat it. I can't repeat it. But just to say that that's not why mum went to Scotland. It sounds more than a mild criticism. I can't repeat it. I can't repeat it. But just to say that that's not why mum went to Scotland.

It sounds more than a mild criticism. I'm genuinely sorry. It's all right. It's all right. I had to wind everything back in and we're good now. Now, this is all about service and it just made me laugh out loud. So it'd be a good place to start. Listening to your chat about self-service checkouts made me feel I needed to tell you about the new ridiculous system

at our local garage. Right, steady yourself, get something firm, everybody. Get a cup of tea. Here we go. I took my car for MOT and a service to a garage I've used for the 10 years that I've owned my current car. A new system is in place. You no longer take in your car and hand over the keys. You have to check in online.

Then you take your car in, you sign in again on a screen in the showroom and then you leave your key in a safety deposit box. They then work on your car and send you a video of the engineer who's worked on the car. He stands in the workshop and reads a piece of paper to the camera explaining his health check on your vehicle, which, incidentally, he also sent on email for me to read. He clearly didn't want to do that job,

as the expression in his voice and on his face proved, and the background noise of the workshop made it difficult to hear him anyway. What was so difficult about someone ringing me to say that my car was OK or needed work done? They call it service, but frankly, it's so impersonal. I, like Jane, will be going to where there is more personal contact with the staff next time. Keep up the good work. That's from Jan Lloyd. So don't go back to that garage.

And like Jane, your bugbear was with. It's the self-checkout. So I will quite happily. I've got time to kill, let's be honest. I'm not busy. I will join a queue at the checkout to interact with a human rather than using the self-checkout. And I've stopped going to Sainsbury's now, Jan, because they don't have any tills, you know,

with a normal conveyor belt. There's nobody. So I just will take my custom elsewhere. Take my custom elsewhere. And we all should we all should because it's not it's not the way that people want to go i think they've missed the point of shopping yes there's got to be an interaction and also the poor people who have to man those self-service checkouts with its constant call for an assistant, you know, have an age verification, you haven't put the right thing in,

and, you know, that's no job. That's terrible. Yeah, actually, they do have a hard time, those people. Well, everyone's bad-tempered. Everyone's bad-tempered. They're always being shouted at. They have to run from pillar to post, don't they, in order to satisfy.

And also, there is something lovely about that kind of interaction that you used to be able to have as all of your goods went down the conveyor belt. Do you remember the Carolina Hearn sketch? Go on. Where she'd just pick up everything, every individual item, and just have a comment about it. Oh, a big sanitary towel?

So you're on a heavy flow? Preparation H. I mean, there are some things. And it's true. There are some things I'm happy to sneak through the self check And I've got to be honest Like what? Well you know Some of those more delicate medical areas

I'm not bothered about my heavy flow Everyone can know about that This is important because it references Bea Who was our listener who'd moved from Singapore To Bristol That was right wasn't it? Or was it Hong Kong? It might have been Hong Kong she'd lived in.

Anyway, she was struggling a little bit in Bristol. And thank you to our listeners in Bristol who have been in touch. Eleanor says, I heard that message from Bea about being an expat in Bristol. And as a fellow expat in Bristol, I agree with her.

It is easier to make new friends in expat communities where everyone is much more open to new people. I'd be very happy to have a commiseration cuppa with her should she ever need a listening ear so do pass on my email if you are able to i think we can there is probably a safe way for us to do that or certainly make contact with b if she contacts us we'll try and sort that out that shouldn't be impossible should it kate no thank you. And did you see the other one from Claire in Bristol? Go for it, because I'm then going to bring in Colette. OK. I wanted to tell you, says Claire, about a fantastic community of Bristol women on the Facebook group Bristol Girl.

People post all manner of things, ranging from asking for recommendations for waxing to friend requests. I've lived in Bristol all my 37 years and I still find it hard sometimes to meet like-minded folk and I've connected with others through this group. I would recommend that Bea takes a look and considers attending one of the many social events which happen every month or she could just create her own post asking if anybody might be in a similar situation to herself and would like to grab a coffee. So there you go. There's something I didn't know. So the name of that group is Bristol Girl.

Bea, let us know how you get on. Yeah. And actually, Mumsnet is always really, really good. Yeah. It's the big community kind of thing. And you can find age specific kids as well, you know, to go and hang out with their parents because that's so important too uh so colette's email is an email of two halves uh the first is about hive books have you come across hive no what's that so if you buy a book from hive uh and uh the email the

website address is just hive.co.uk a percentage of the money goes to your chosen local bookshop who are often struggling, says Colette. So far, by ordering books, I've supported a small bookshop near me in Leek, and when I buy a book for my daughter, a bookshop in East Dulwich too. An Elderly Lady is up to no good, which is book club number four book,

is in stock at Hive. Just thought your listeners might be interested or able to recommend other ethical ways of book buying and and this is because it's it's quite difficult to get hold of this book at the moment on the great big bookstore of Bezos so lots of people have been suggesting other places to go and actually just other places to go anyway and you're absolutely right to do that lots of people want to give their local library a mention I think the problem was for a couple of our listeners early doors their library wasn't going to stock it anytime soon which is why they're trying to source it

from other places so we'll read the Helen Thurston Thurston book in about four weeks time three weeks time I think maybe. Definitely after half term. I say that selfishly. Half term's next week. And you're off next week aren't you? There has been some racy chat about possibly doing a non-fiction book next. Yes. I know. I think it'd be a good idea. Well I bought a book the other day that I thought might be quite useful. It's called

Unwell Women and it's about the history of medicine and women. Not keen? Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Well i haven't read it yet no so um but talking of the library oh could i just do part two of colette's email because it's really lovely topic number two this is a tougher one for me says colette this also came up in the same podcast i'd love for more airtime on the topic of what it's like to be trying to make friends. In your older years, I'm 54. Two years ago, I moved to a village in North Staffordshire, and I'm finding the loneliness crippling. I crave female company. Well, any company.

It feels like a chasm in the brain and body, a kind of decay. Whilst everyone I meet is very friendly, and any groups that I've gone along to, so's walking groups Zumba yoga WI all equally friendly but I sense that women in my age group already have their tribes it doesn't go beyond a few hours of chit chat and it was good to meet you because who needs another friend and I think it's such an interesting point to make Colette goes on to say I crave proper conversation the type where people are curious and listen rather than just talk at you. It took me a while to identify what this very low feeling was. And then one day I thought, I'm lonely. I'd appreciate any advice, even if it's confirmation that it's time to realise that this is it.

Has anyone else been here and come through it or found a way to cope? And collect works and mental health realises how loneliness affects mental and physical health. So it feels all the more ironic that I'm in this situation I can't remember the last time I laughed and how sad is that literally well Colette it's not sad at all I would say that that's absolutely an inevitability of everything that you've said I think if you get to 54 and, you know, clearly you've had a family too, you have a depth of friendship and relationships that have gone before. And of course you want to meet that in your new life. I mean, it's like, you know, the temperature of the bath that you've been used to being in is the temperature that you want your bath to be.

So how incredibly frustrating that you can't find that and I think you're right as well that especially in groups of women who've been through a lot of different phases with each other that can feel like a tribe that is not a little bit unbreakable. Yes, yeah. So advice on breaking in. And whereabouts in the country did you say? So that is in Staffordshire, North Staffordshire. Okay. It would be helpful to know whether it was a rural part or, I don't know. It's a village.

It's a village. Oh, gosh. I mean, I've never lived in a village, so I don't know. That would be quite difficult, I imagine, to break into what they call tight-knit communities. Yeah. difficult I imagine to break into what they call tight-knit communities. Yes yeah but I think maybe and I obviously I don't know this at all Colette and correct me if I'm wrong but maybe you're one of those wonderful people who appears to be absolutely fine so everybody's thinking oh well you know she's had a you know massive career or whatever it is or you know traveled all the way

around the world or whatever you know she's absolutely fine she's come here for kind of a different reason rather than to be part of our gang so I suppose or can you catch a kind empathetic eye and actually just explain how you're feeling a little bit would that be the end of the world sometimes i think that blurting out of honesty is the thing that can do you the most favors in life just to say you know i'm lonely and bored and it's a bit crippling yeah yes because it it will be crippling i mean i completely i really feel for her that's i'm sorry colette that's been really tough for you and we don't know why she's moved there or what's led to this no okay um well um you never even you never know there might be somebody out there in the north Staffordshire area who might be able to a bit like our listeners in Bristol might have some

solutions yeah I would say that at times in my own life and I've been lonely and I did try and move abroad for a while and absolutely hated it. I just couldn't find the, I couldn't find exactly that. I couldn't find the people I wanted to be with. I did find it enormously helpful to actually just say to people, I'm quite lonely at the moment and a bit bored. And then people kind of go, oh, okay, we'll come along. Because you don't, sometimes you don't know, you know, the impression that you're giving off and it might not be that. So, and sure they're lovely people i'm sure they're lovely people so i mean for goodness sake if they're doing zumba and walking a lot they must be great

you're done zumba uh no just a word makes me feel a bit upset. Well, it's so sort of assertive. I've never got to the end of a Zumba class. No, well, there's a new dance class in the Archers. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Dance bit. I woke up for my afternoon nap. I like to take an afternoon nap.

On a Sunday? Well, whenever it was. Whenever the Archers thing was on. It's like some kind of, it's like you were there. I was there yesterday. Jane says, I don't normally do this, but I wanted to suggest a lost art. I'm going to nominate library book stamping. Brilliant.

And we mentioned libraries and they are so important uh more of a performance art it was usually done by ladies sat behind a library counter venting some unknown frustration so right on the books you are taking home bang bang bang on your enoblitons breaking the near silence of the place back at home a favorite game with friends would be playing libraries or post offices. How would you play? I don't think anyone's playing post offices these days, not in this country. Anyway, equipped with an ink pad and any sort of stamp to wallet books using as much force as we could muster. Only able to dream of those special stamping gadgets used in libraries that showed an actual date.

I think something was lost when barcodes were introduced and not just the noise, says Jane nostalgically. I could not agree more. That email is a thing of beauty. Thank you. Because the library stamp, it came from quite a high place, didn't it, on the stamper. They went for it.

Yeah, there was a real... But I think Jane's on to something. I think some of those ladies, and they weren't just ladies, they usually were, were perhaps getting something out of their system. Do you think? Applying that particular force to the stamping of the books. Yep. This comes from...

Some of them will have been menopause, Orfie. And we know what that does to you. What does it do to you? Makes you very cross. Okay. Oh, just one thing on the nap. Why, when you have an afternoon nap, does drool come out of your mouth? I don't know.

But when you have a big sleep overnight, it doesn't. Well, scientists will listen to this podcast. Very good question. What is the answer? Rachel's listening to us in Sydney, Australia. The only country with three A's all pronounced differently, she's put. Yes, I thought that was extremely clever. Let's just have a think.

Yep. O-S-T-R-A-Y-L-E-R. Yeah, she's right. Your recent question about skills that have fallen out of use. What about O-S-T-R-A-Y-L-E-R? Oh, no. Reminded me. Austria.

I was going to say. Okay. Ignore me. Fallen out of use reminded me very much of my elderly father. Now, do you know what? I got a bit misty-eyed, actually, when I read this one, Rachel. He's most set in his ways, and as a result, his home is a treasure trove of obsolete technology,

very frustrating at times, but perfect as inspiration for a range of skills which are rapidly falling out of use. In no particular order, he still uses at home a telephone with a rotary dial. Oh! A slide rule rule this is two rulers attached side by side that between them allow you to multiply larger numbers together a barometer to forecast the weather for the day does he tap it rachel does it i mean my mom and dad have got a barometer it just always says fair does it set set to fair yeah that's it yeah well i mean maybe that's because they're living in the dreamland of crosby the mersey riviera a letter

opener he still enjoys the satisfying feeling of cleanly slicing open the whole top of the envelope and he's also got a clock which requires winding every week with the time calibrated against the speaking clock. I didn't even know the speaking clock still existed. What a delightful set of habits. And Rachel goes on to say he used to commute to work every day, reading his broadsheet newspaper cover to cover in a packed peak hour train. He perfectly turned and folded each page, maintaining a crisp centre fold line as he was jostled shoulder to shoulder with the other commuters. In my memory, all of the early morning commuters had their nose in a broadsheet and I could never

figure out how they all managed to fit in. My dad still balances his checkbook each month and wears his Sunday best on a Sunday. He turns 80 next year and I love him dearly, but he really feels to me like he belongs in a different era. he absolutely does rachel but he just sounds like such a fantastic chap and there's a beauty in that kind of fastidiousness i think as well yes i've always admired a well-dressed older man and by older i mean you do still see them in their 80s and 90s in a proper suit with a tie on. It might be a bit tweedy. Yeah, but they look great. Yeah.

And I think your dad's very happy in his place, so good luck to him. Yeah, but I love all of those things because I think most houses don't have a single one of those things in them, actually. No. And that's a shame. A letter opener.

Yes. We don't get post anymore, do we? We don't. You can't get your car serviced. You don't get post anymore, do we? We don't. You can't get your car serviced. You don't get post. You can't get a dental appointment. None of us have got any teeth in Britain anymore. We've got a special guest.

That's Tracey-Ann Oberman today, isn't it? So I need to get a wiggle on. I really am one of you, says, and you're very unfortunate, Zoe, says Zoe. Oh, my goodness, I'm one of you, she emails. I keep a bottle of the magic stuff Hawaiian Tropic in my cupboard and I regularly rub it on in the dark winter to remind me what summer is like.

It's just so uplifting. I grew up with this stuff. I used to call it bad bananas because of the smell. I love it, she says. Well, she is a woman after her own heart because do you remember during the pandemic we used to talk about that, so used to put hawaiian tropic inside my mask so that i could smell the smell of holidays and you put so i can't remember what yours was there was some there was a smell that you had fiery jack deep deep heat deep heat the other delightful It brings the changing room at the gym back to me Summer smell is bergasol

Do you remember that? Bergasol Sun cream It was oil, wasn't it? It was suntan oil It was so optimistic applying that in Liverpool Who did we think we were kidding? But anyway

I don't know But it did smell of bergamot It was a dreamy thing Oh, I've never made that association That was what it was Good lord Well, we did have bergamot. It was a dreamy thing. Oh, I've never made that association. That was what it was. Good Lord. Well, we didn't have bergamot up north.

We could die happy now. Shall we go straight into Tracey-Ann Oberman? Is it about time? Yeah. Kate's nodding. Nice to have you back, Kate. Tracey-Ann Oberman is taking on the mighty role of Shylock in The Merchant of Venice 1936 in a new production you can see at the RSC in Stratford and then at London's Criterion Theatre. She's known for lots

of things though isn't she? So she was in EastEnders quite a long time. She was and just completely by the by and not really relevant except it kind of is worth noting she was just once very nice to a friend of mine and I have never forgotten that about her. She didn't need to be nice to this woman. She was. And now whenever I hear her name I think, oh, she was nice. And you don't forget that kind of thing. No, I think she's terrific. She's incredibly articulate

and really, you know, always very, very well turned out. We do have quite a long conversation about her hair at the end of the interview. You go into full Teasy Weezy Raymond mode at the end there. Which I was surprised to hear go out on a hair today actually. But hey-ho. Editing is an art

that I enjoyed that bit. Anyway, it's at the end of this interview. So she's in The Merchant of Venice 1936. The 1936, some of you more intelligent listeners will know it's not from Shakespeare's time. The addition refers to a reimagined backdrop of growing anti-Semitism,

because the cloud of fascism in 1930s Britain was really darkening the skies, particularly above the east end of London. Now, Tracy Ann has said of the role, a Jewish actress putting on a play about anti-Semitism, which needs to be made secure because of Jew-hating extremists. As one reviewer said, written in 1600, set in 1936, as relevant today, ain't that the truth? She has also spoken in the past about how important it is, she thinks, for Jewish actors to play Jewish roles and recently objected to the prosthetics employed on

the film Maestro which show Bradley Cooper in the part of Leonard Bernstein with a very large nose so we get on to talking about that too but we do start with the play and I asked her what makes this production great? The really good headlines are that it's short, one and a half hours, it's sexy, it's punchy, it's political, and if you've never seen a Shakespeare before, you're going to love it. And if you love Shakespeare and you want to see another version of how this play could be done, you're going to love it. So it's one for the purists, there's something for the gays, something for the straights, something for the women, something for the men, something for everybody in it.

So that's the big selling headline. What they will expect to see is basically the merchant of Venice cut down with all the fat taken off it to an hour and a half with a female Shylock based on my great grandmother, fighting this merchant, this rich aristocratic merchant who she gets into a contract for a pound of flesh with. And we've transposed it to the 1936 British fascist movement under Oswald Mosley, with all his aristocratic followers, set against the backdrop of the Battle of Cable Street. So that's what they're going to expect. What is the significance of your great grandmother's experience? So I've always hated The Merchant of Venice. I've always

found it a really difficult play. And I wondered what would happen rather than just take it out of the canon, as people like Juliet Stevenson have been suggesting. I always wondered what would happen if you reclaimed it. So I always wondered what would happen if you set Shylock, this archetypal Jewish character who demands a pound of flesh. I wonder what would happen if you turned it into a woman and saw how that changed the relationship with the daughter. And I was thinking about all the matriarchs that I grew up with, my great grandma, my bubba Annie, who came over from Belarus from all the beheadings and the anti-Semitism. And she was nearly raped and she got to England at 15 and she called it the Golden Medina. She loved it here, even though she was sleeping in a factory and later on in the slums of the east end you could still be a jewish woman and nobody wanted to behead you or kill you and then she came face to face with mosley at the battle of cable street when he was

leafleting and marching against the jewish entity and she stood up with all her all her other neighbors you know the irish working class the english class, the Afro-Caribbean community. So it's that's the significance is showing a woman, an immigrant woman standing up to church and state being ultimately destroyed. Seeing the play through a different prison of a woman standing up to with this little contract saying, you know, but I live in England and I have a legal contract and it's binding because the golden medina of England says that the law counts and then as the play progresses we see that the law really only works for the rich and the powerful so it's a very multi it's a really it's a I would say a very strong ragu it's been cooking for a

long time and it's it's won hearts and minds around the country and now it's going into the West End. And what would she make of the fact that this play and particularly this reimagining of The Merchant of Venice is more relevant now than it has possibly ever been? Well, I don't know if it's ever, I don't know whether that's true. I think The Merchant of Venice is a bellwether of societies that we live in. I mean, there's no coincidence that it was Hitler's favourite play. It was put on the Third Reich. They loved it. Goebbels did a version where he took out the great plea for humanity, hath not a due eyes, hath not a due, you know, if we're like you, we're like you and the rest. This play has always been relevant. I thought it

was relevant when I started working on it five years ago, having been a woman who was standing up to anti-Semitism on the progressive left and the huge amount of trolling and abuse I got. And I thought that that was the zeitgeist. And then obviously with the, you know, unfortunately, anti-Semitism and othering and greater powers pitting us against each other has always been zeitgeisty. I think what has happened now since the attack on the terrible attacks on October the 7th is that within those first 24 hours before Israel had even put a boot on the ground, rises in anti-Jewish hatred had risen by 300% in this country alone. And I think that that's the zeitgeist is that, you know, in our play, you see the graffiti that's daubed over Shylock's house,

and you see the mark, you know, you see a lot of anti-Jewish rhetoric going on. And to me, that's the shocker, is that the same tropes that were coming out in the 30s and medieval England and onwards have risen to the surface again. Absolutely. And I suppose that's my point in asking the question. It's the fact that we might feel we have a sense of impending doom in our society and also a feeling that the lessons of history have not really been learned. I mean, you've had to have security around you, haven't you? Because of the anti-Semitic threats of violence that have been made against you. You know, which is a dark time, isn't it?

Yeah. I mean, these are really febrile times. Febrile, febrile. There's a lot of, you know, radicalisation online. There's a lot of, you know, there are greater evils out there that are trying to pit minorities against each other. And it was the same in Mosley's day. That's exactly what Hitler did. And it goes all the way through the history of racism and anti-Semitism. You know, some people are finding, you know, the concepts of revenge and vilification and all of those. That's all part of the play. And it's, you know, it's really interesting. And it brings up I think it makes it a really rich topical uh play but for me personally during a time where there is a global rise in anti-jewish rhetoric uh and violence and a lack of understanding and denial yeah i think

this play is really topical and you know it is very meta that as a Jewish woman putting on a vilified you know the production of the Merchant of Venice about a vilified Jewish woman I'm finding that you know speaking about families that I know whose children daughters were raped horrifically on October the 7th I've been silenced on social media people don't want to hear it there are very few female voices condemning or speaking out on that. So for me, yeah, and the security that I've had to have, I think it is a rich, rich zeitgeisty moment. I've heard you talk very firmly and very coherently about your belief that non-Jewish people playing Jewish parts is something that we all need to have a bit

more of a think about and I think it was around the time of Maestro wasn't it? Oh yeah I mean yeah that's not the hill I necessarily want to die on I just got to I but you know I think um I think as actors we are trained to play everyone and everything. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I've been very lucky in that I've played a broad range of parts from nuns to queens to, you know, concubines. And that's what I was trained for. And that's my job. But we are living in a time where we're re-looking at representation of all minorities and with representation and cultural appropriation. representation of all minorities and with representation and cultural appropriation and I think as you know my friend David Baddiel often says Jews don't count they have to count in this arena as much as any other minority I work with Russell I'm very friendly with Russell T Davis who I admire enormously and Russell when we did It's a Sin always said that being LGBTQI was not a character trait just to shrug on. He wanted it played with authenticity.

So I would ask that in the representation of Jewish characters, the same amount of sensitivity and care and physical representation is put into the casting and the thought behind those. Is there ever an argument, though, that you can bring more people to a play or a TV show or a film if the parts that you're seeing are played by, it could be anybody? Yeah, obviously.

I mean, you know, I'd pay to see Jennifer Lawrence play Golda Meir any day of the week. You know, I'm sure if I had the choice between Bradley Cooper, Oscar winning, he's going to put on. I think the thing with the Bradley Cooper thing, it was less about the playing. It was more whoever let those stills, the photo stills that came out on set were so ridiculous with the prosthetic nose.

They looked so bad that it was, as a first visual image of what he was bringing to Bernstein, it was a bit shocking. And, you know, if you understand the nuance of the concept of Jews and their noses and the representation of Jews, and you actually understand the historic purpose of what it was to represent them like that, there's sensitivity. I mean, you know, Jews can pass. So in medieval times, particularly with Shylock, in order to show that the Jew was different on stage, you stuck a pointed nose or a big, big hook nose and red hair to symbolise the devil.

That's, you know, Jews don't look like that. But audiences wanted a visual impact to say this, this character, this Jew is different to the rest of us, nice Christian society, and that's why we hate them. So similarly with Lenny Bernstein, if the first image that comes out is this ridiculous image of this big old stuck-on hooter, I think people got a bit twitchy about it. I blame the bills photographer, myself, and the publicist. Is it not the case that the big old stuck on Hooters actually up for Oscar?

The makeup and prosthetics is up for an award, isn't it? Well, I mean, like I said, it is so not the hill I want to die on. Honestly, good luck to everybody. I think the same thing with Golda, with brilliant, beautiful Helen Mirren. Personally, you know, Helen Mirren, Eddie Marzan, these are wonderful actors who have been hugely wonderful allies to the Jewish community and understand the nuances of anti-Jewish hatred and have always stood up and been counted. I think the community as a whole wouldn't have that much of a problem with beautiful allies necessarily presenting them. But I don't know

whether I necessarily would want to see another non-Jewish Tevye or Shylock or Fagin. These are very, oh my gosh, this is a heavy conversation. But then it is The Times, isn't it? It's The Times Radio. That's what you do. It's all right. We can get lighthearted in a sec. My final question for you, hopefully is lighthearted. He is lighthearted. You know, we're living in tropes. And this country has a literary tradition of creating the biggest Jewish, the archetypes of Jewish characters, which is Fagin, Shylock, Barabbas, which is from Johnson's The Jew of Malta.

And these are not particularly positive. These, you know, these come out of a medieval blood libel trope of the nasty, manipulative Jew. And so I think, therefore, any portrayal of that has to be done very sensitively, as you would with any minority. Can I ask you about Claudia Winkleman? I had no idea that she was your cousin. Yes. And I've read here uh that's your side i'm sure she is that claudia's side of the family are the arty ones and tracy ann's are the suburban ones now is that something that you've said yourself or did i say that no i don't it's claudia it's not attributed yes no i don't think i gosh i don't. It's not attributed. No, I don't think. Gosh, I don't know who would have said that. That sounds like something from the news of the world.

I don't know who would have said that. Claudia's grandma and my grandma were sisters. And they were the two younger sisters of a huge line. I think there were 13 of them. of a huge line I think there were 13 of them um where actually again who I based my shylock on these strong matriarchs machine gun molly was another one of their sisters this sort of widow in the east end who knew how to cut a deal she was terrifying so there was machine gun molly and loads of other sisters and then her grandma and my grandma were sisters and her grandma lived in a gorgeous house and she used to have these big family tees. So I love Claudia and her brother, Ollie, who I am close to. So thoughts on Traitors? I mean, I do think, you know, have you not watched it? Oh, my goodness.

The life of theatre means that you are treading the boards. You never get to watch telly. No, fair enough. Well, I will not ask you about her amazing jumpers then well her but she always she was always so beautiful and also she's got incredible um she's got a great style she's always owned it she's always owned her style and her fringe yep and your hair looks beautiful today if i may say so so this is radio but I'm going to try and describe it. It's the most wonderful kind of boof over to one side, gently, delicately falling over one shoulder. Just so the listeners understand this. Tracey only got up 15 minutes ago. And honest to God, you look absolutely ready for a full evening's entertainment. And that's not a euphemism. I'm i'm like the fabio if anyone the fabio

of the podcast screen you are i've got a good hair thank god i've got good hair it's absolutely lovely to talk to you uh the merchant of venice sounds fantastic thank you very much indeed come and see it it's empowering and i think if you like shakespeare if you want to see it slightly reframed much of venice is is at the Criterion from the 15th of February to the 23rd of March. The Merchant of Venice, 1936, plays at London's Criterion Theatre. I just can't say it right, so I apologise. From the 15th of February to the 23rd of March.

It sounds interesting. It does really sound interesting. Yeah, and also I just love the fact that, you know, it's an hour and a half long, it's punchy, it's sexy, it's political. We mustn't dwell on the fact that it's relatively short, although that's another good reason. It's a very good reason to go. I speak as somebody who's going to the theatre again tomorrow. Are you? What are you saying?

Metamorphosis. I understand it's a comedy. No, it's not a comedy. But it's a very challenging production. Okay, right. Who's in that? I don't know. Do you know where it is? Yes, it's at my local theatre.

And who wrote it? Well, is it Kafka? Yes. I'm looking at Kate, who's very kind and would always pretend, she would always tell me the answer. I came up with the one name I had somewhere in what passes for my locker. who's very kind and would always pretend you should always tell me the answer. I came up with the one name I had somewhere in what passes for my locker. Gosh.

And I found him. Old friends. Well, that is quite challenging, isn't it? Yes, yes, yes. Maybe they've changed it and it's got a really happy ending. Maybe. Maybe it's set to music. That's what they're doing,

making a musical about everything these days, aren't they? Could well be. Maybe there's two spiders, they fall in love, and make lots of little baby ones. Maybe. My latest TV obsession is Tiny Temper's extraordinary extensions on Channel 4. Oh, my gosh, you're obsessed by this.

I mean, it's so good, Jane. It's so good because there are people who put, they're putting tiny extensions on the back of their houses. Yes. And some of them are extraordinary. You don't really like the property porn. I'm not that interested. I don't mind a bit of location, location, location.

Oh, you see, I don't like that. That's a little bit too money, money, money for me. Oh, no, I'm fond of Phil and Kirsty. Are you? Yeah. Okay, I like tiny more. He's very funny. He rocks up on his enormous great big Land Rover thing,

he wants it. He wouldn't be able to afford to park in Paris with that. And he kind of rocks on through everybody's lives. It's really, really joyful, addictive TV. Does he have an extension of his own? Well, he's got quite a property portfolio. He's been a very canny man, I think, in terms of his property investments.

So he does know what he's talking about. If you've got a property empire and you want to contact either of us with a view to just getting to know us, we'd be very grateful indeed. Jane and Fi at Timestock Radio. And once again, thank you for joining in with this because it's brilliant, isn't it? Well, it's work for us as well, Jane. We're very grateful.

You're quite right. I was getting a bit sentimental there. Casting all that aside, it keeps us quiet and busy after a fashion. Okay, so we've got an email special, so please don't worry. As Jane said right at the beginning of the podcast, we've had some absolute crackers recently. So we're going to pop them all in a special

and that will arrive in between your ears on Friday. And tomorrow on the programme we've got Ed Davey and Prue Leith. Now one of them, maybe both, will make the podcast, but certainly they'll both be on the radio show, three till five, Times Radio tomorrow. The app, the Times Radio app is free. Yeah, we mustn't get the questions muddled up.

No, I don't know where Ed Davey stands on gravy, but we'll see. Right. And I like his statement jewellery. But not so fond of his glasses. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio.

It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on off-air very soon don't be so silly running a bank i know ladies lady listener sorry