Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Take me back to the path of righteousness PLEASE (with Gary Numan)

Episode Date: July 30, 2025

It's day three of our Lionesses Euros Hangover™ and Jane is wondering whether Cliff Richard should have joined the celebrations. Fi's got some thoughts. Plus, how to reply to scam texts? Hint: it involves swear words.They're joined by musician Gary Numan to chat about his new album and lots more.You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_ukiIf you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murrayAnd if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I always reply to them, I just say cock off. Say cock off? I wrote back, this is bollocks. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Because in the moment you feel a little bit of power. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep, the one and only Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures.

It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park. Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf. The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these things.

There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast, we're chatting to the secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Loni G. Bunch, who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash WDC. Welcome to Off Air, the podcast Wednesday's edition.

So, how's everybody doing? We're post-Burnaby and Serena Vigman. It wouldn't have been the same if they'd brought out Cliff, would it? No, don't even say that. No, we don't want that image. Could have been better. Congratulations. No, don't.

It would have worked. No, don't. I thought it was wonderful. And also, because she just knew all of the words, so a genuine fandom there, because you know, sometimes you don't do you, even if you think that you're the biggest fan ever, you kind of in the second verse slightly lose it. It's always quite good fun, isn't it, watching people sing along to the national anthem. Well, most of us know the second verse slightly lose it. It's always quite good fun, isn't it, watching people sing along to the national anthem? Well, most of us know the first verse. I'm still, by the way, it's a lone campaign mind. We've got to get rid of that national anthem. Oh, just leave it there.

Oh no, sorry. It's not good enough. No, it's too late. Other nations have got better anthems. And just perhaps the Spanish team weren't singing their national anthem at all. And amongst the crowd of people on our sofa someone said that there weren't words to the Spanish national anthem is that true? It's just words, it's just a tune so you just have to hum well when a nation will fall apart. And they did although they were very good we need

to say that. Right we're almost over the success of the Lionesses but let's just keep on having that little tingle. Shall we also acknowledge the very hard work of our executive producer Rosie who Fee has done what? She well, shall we just do in memory Steve Wright as well clap around the mic. Love the show. Love the show, great show Steve, great show. She has put all of your suggestions for our Spotify playlist up on our Spotify playlist and that took her until the wee small hours of the morning. She stayed late after work last night, she declared herself to be exhausted today and we genuinely, genuinely say a huge thank you.

Because that is a laborious uploading thing. That's like doing a whole cupboard of clothes on vintage, isn't it? By the third shirt you're just like, oh stuff it, just put it in there, and film. But with no financial reward. Oh Rosie! Well there's lots of financial reward. Loves every day of her working life. But also what a glorious playlist you've created. It's so ridiculously all over the place. So you can get introduced to songs that you never knew you wanted. You can dispatch songs that you

thought you wanted but definitely didn't. Well you feel a bit triggered by the occasional show tune. Oh I can't, I just can't do a show tune. Because you don't like musical theatre. I don't like musical theatre. I do. Well it all sounds the same, it's all coming your way, everything, everything, everything's off a play. Yeah, that's exactly what I like about it.

And we have decided you've got an announcement to make about what we're going to do in the near future, but not immediately. So we need to press pause on this playlist so it is full. This is the OG of Off Air Playlists and it will always be the OG so if you made it onto this playlist you are an originator and then we're going to pause for a bit and in the autumn we're going to start doing a couple of themed playlists which will be very specific and they'll also only have about 20 tracks in them and we will ask for your suggestions for those and they will be things like it's a a wet Wednesday, I need a lift.

Yeah and I'm broken hearted and not for the first time. And then, oh God almighty, everyone wants me to do something for them and I want to do something for myself. I've got the house to myself, would be a good title. Oh yeah, you could just let Rip to some classic 70s disco. Couldn't you just? I've some classic 70s disco. Couldn't you just? I've got that after myself. Wonderful. So we'll start doing those in the autumn but we're not going to do them yet so thank you for all of your suggestions and a very

very sincere thank you to Rosie our executive producer. Do you think she's been thanked enough? Yes, even she's glazing over. Yes we're actually being, we're being executively produced today so you should notice the difference in quality. I wonder whether she'll be fast as a finger first. We don't know. Oh! Oh! It doesn't count if you just randomly press it.

It has to come at the right time. I think this contributor might, though, qualify for the jingle. No! We... Oh! Do you want to know? This contributor might though qualify for the jingle. No, we... Oh! I think she's lost control. She's overplaying her part. Anonymous says, I listened to that piece on parental finances with interest. Now, I thought this was such an interesting topic.

Really interesting. And also, I'm quite surprised by the responses, some of them, Jane. Yeah, well, this was just in case you missed yesterday. Nobody would understand why you did. It was from a woman whose parents had quite frankly just spent everything they had and in some quite irresponsible ways. They'd not only spent everything they had, they'd gone into debt, hadn't they? They were maxed out on credit cards, they'd taken all the equity out of their house, they were

completely and utterly on the verge of bankruptcy. Yeah. Anonymous says, I'm inclined to say it's none of the children's business how her parents spent their money in pensions. I assume they worked all their days to pay for the home and build the pension pot. As you reach retirement and the prospect of less time, I can understand the desire for long desired experiences. If you have good health and are able, go for it.

Ultimately, you've got no obligation to provide an inheritance. It is more important that children are supported to make their own way in life. It doesn't appear the parental responsibilities were fully met and were fully equipped to go into adult life with good experiences. Children have no obligation to become the parental figure to their parents. It sounds like your correspondent was given the experience of a positive parental figure growing up, helping them develop the skills to succeed. Don't waste time having negative thoughts. Remember all the good your parents did you? So that sounds to me like, well it's certainly a view.

Of course you're not. You don't have to leave anybody in inheritance, and let's face it, most people don't because they can't, because life's bloody tough for the vast majority of people. But I think most of us would probably, if we can, like to leave our children and maybe grandchildren and other relatives something to help them. Yes. I would hope. But also, I do think in our original correspondence case,

it was the duplicity that had really troubled her, wasn't it? Yes, that was the element, yeah. So she had acknowledged that her parents had been generous and supportive to her and her brother throughout their earlier life, but I suppose it is pretending that you're on an even keel financially, still taking the big holidays, you know, selling the holiday home and you know whatever whatever. I think if you were very honest with your kids and said look I'm going to spend it all, you know, I've done my bit for you and now

this is the bit for me, I think that would be completely fair enough, that's completely your choice and I think in lots of cases it can be really good for kids to know that once they get to a certain age they need to do it for themselves. But I did really feel for our correspondent that she was the one who had to pick up the pieces when it all just got completely out of control. Quite. I mean this is a really serious situation wasn't it for this family. Things have got completely out of hand. To your point about honesty, I think you're absolutely right.

I think if you do say to your children, you know what, I fed you, I watered you, I got your school uniform ready, I made sure you got to the right place at the right time for all your social commitments, blah blah blah blah blah. I stayed up half the night worried about when you were coming in, I would like to go on a cruise, I am perhaps entering my eighth or seventh or eighth decade, I do want some time to myself, tell them and time for myself, absolutely tell them, but I think in the case of our original correspondent they were living in their own dream world and they hadn't mentioned anything to their offspring. But also, it is a plain fact that it was easier to get on certainly on the British housing ladder in our day. It's going to be far, far harder for people now. So if granny or mom or dad can leave you something, and I appreciate lots of people can't, that would be an amazing thing to be able to do wouldn't it? I mean it was so much easier for us to buy

a house. Very much so yeah and it's interesting too that I've chunked into my future horizon the the notion that I will have to do something for my children and I I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I think that'll be okay for me. I think I think it'll be alright. It won't be lavish at all, but I think it'll be alright. But that's all part of the same thing, isn't it? It's factoring in what you are going to do, letting your kids know what you're going to do and letting them be realistic about their expectations then of their own life and of what you can give them. So I always find it, there's still a real trope, isn't there,

in dramas where the reading of the will reveals something extraordinary. I mean, either Uncle Barry, who nobody has seen for the last 45 years, who was the right old reprobate of the family turns out to inherit the entire estate including the grouse more or This is the stories that do very well on the times.com And on channel 5 in the afternoon was the crossover and But it's still that weird thing isn't it?

And I wonder whether it is rather a British thing where we don't tell everybody in our family anything about our money or where it's going or who doesn't have any left or all that kind of stuff. It's very odd. It's very, very odd, Joan. Play our cards close to us. Can we do another one about irresponsible parents from the other side? Further to your correspondence email about her parents yesterday.

She's definitely not alone. My parents divorced 25 years ago. They had been living abroad where my father remained and where he met and married a woman who was 30 years his junior and spoke no English. We never had a close relationship but his indifference became increasingly humiliating. I sent presents for his birthday. He never even remembered mine or my children's. When we very occasionally spoke over Zoom,

he'd simultaneously read the paper. Bloody hell. At the same time, he bought homes for his wife's children in their country and in their names. Then a few months ago, we had a call that he'd run out of money and had a travel ban related to significant debts. His wife flew back to her country and off the scene. My siblings and I paid over 50,000 pounds

to sort out his financial issues and get him repatriated. He's 85, arrived with no income assets or even belongings. I had to pick him up from the airport. He spent the first three weeks living with us in the middle of A levels, as there was nowhere else for him to go. This has caused so much stress for me, my siblings and our spouses. weeks living with us in the middle of A-levels as there was nowhere else for him to go. This has caused so much stress for me, my siblings and our spouses. There is no gratitude.

He seems oblivious to the upset and aggravation he's caused and is as difficult and self-important as ever. His only concern is for his wife, who's on the other side of the world, in her house. We felt morally obliged to bail out this man who's been a peripheral part of our lives for decades. And I'm really not sure that he'd have done the same for any of us. I'm so resentful of everything we've had to do for him and the ongoing joyless burden ahead.

Right, sweetheart. I mean, really. Thoughts and prayers there, seriously. Massive thoughts and prayers. And also, I mean, it will mean nothing at all to your daily existence but you've done you've done the right thing at a cost to yourself and well done but but but but I really really feel for you what a prick sorry but what a prick. I think that's fine. So does he just have to stay with you forever now? Can he not ultimately go back to his wife, the other side of the world in her house? Why does he have to be

with you now? I'm going to ask a dull question. Would he qualify for the British state pension? Good question. In which case, why not go and pick it up for him in inverted commas? And then send him on his way. He might qualify for free travel, you can pop him on a bus. Yeah, but that is a load of pain, isn't it? Absolute load of pain. And I... God, I mean to have someone like that in your house all of a sudden,

day in, day out... Fee, I cannot imagine. Come and live with me. Come and live with me. Where? In your basement? No, we've got. Come and live with me. You can curl up on the sofa. In your basement? No, we've got a lotter in the basement. Oh yeah, you've got a lotter in there. The house is completely full.

Squeeze the fella in with your lotter. No, I don't want the fella. I'll take the correspondent. I thought you were opening your house because you've got foxes and other vermin in there. So, you know, why not get all useless granddad in there as well? No I was offering our correspondent a place. You see the trouble with people and I'm going to say people who are feckless and are poor parents is that one day they will become vulnerable elderly

people as in the case of this person. And what is your obligation? What is it? Yeah is there an obligation to someone to care for someone who never cared for you? And the thing that made us both wince in that email is the, first of all, not remembering your birthday. I mean, I just don't understand that. Not bothering with grandchildren's birthdays. Reading the paper when you're on Zoom meeting. I'm sorry, but, Maiti, you don't deserve anything.

No. You really don't. You reap what you sow. Well, no, but he's lucky, isn't he? Well, he's reaping more than he deserves. Yeah, but he's reaping way more than he sowed. Yeah, tough. That's a really, really tough one. And God, I hope just listening to our outrage

might provide some small measure of, well it won't really, but maybe it's just put a tiny smile on your face for a moment, or why not go back about four minutes in the podcast, play this out loud on a speaker in a room that he's in. Hello chump. You might be a bit mottin. Why don't you crack on? I'll go off. Anonymous says, I listened to that story you read out, that poor brother and sister whose parents played fast and loose, just so thoughtless. I was going to write our own dismal family story of the Walter Mitty father my sons have had to endure, but it's just too sordid and sad.

His arrogance and lack of empathy is astonishing, taking money to pay his debts over years, never explaining clearly how these debts accrued. My sons are now down significantly financially but in the end, after four years, they've learnt to say no and to my pride they did so kindly, thoughtfully and with empathy. The youngest though did come in last night saying, Dad is such an idiot, how should I respond? I see their dilemma daily, but how do they have a relationship with a parent who's used them with no compunction and certainly no remorse? It is so bloody hard. Fortunately for them I have emerged

as a steady, careful mum who tries to keep a safe space for them. Yes, we are divorced, says our anonymous correspondent. That's another really difficult quandary. I would say possibly when a child refers to their other parent as an idiot, the official advice is that you just listen. You don't say, that's right. You just soak it up and move on and make a benign comment about the weather. That's the official advice. I'm alright. You're absolutely right. Is it easy to do?

Official Brenda. It's not easy to do and especially I think the older they get, the less you want to play any part in kind of varnishing the truth. So I think the unofficial version changes over the years actually but it's a it is a very difficult one and my mum said something very wise to me a long time ago actually about divorce parents and obviously you know in my lifetime I'm divorced myself and my parents were divorced we've had a lot of it around us and I think we've all got through it alright touchwood don't want to speak for anybody else at all but she said you just always have to remember that actually your children are part of somebody else's life too. They feel themselves to be part somebody else. So actually if you're having a real

go at that other person there is a chance that they'll feel that a tiny bit of them is being attacked in that moment as well. And of course you have to be careful about that but, and this is a huge caveat that I put in there, I think we know an awful lot more about the damage done by pretending that everything's fine, by not telling the truth to children, by holding onto a lie for the whole of a life. I think we just understand all of those things better now.

So sometimes I think there's a little bit of catching up to be done actually in the modern family about what gets said and how it gets said. And maybe the rules do need to bend a little bit. What do you think? I think you're right. I'm a little worried that, what did you call me, official Brenda? Official Brenda. Has she taken over from On Message Mandy or does she live alongside her?

No, I think On Message Mandy is very specifically for things in the workplace but I think official Brenda is for emotional context. Someone who's read books about empathy and emotions and indeed dealing with divorce and its after effects and goes tries to absorb the guidance. So I think on message Mandy very much has the kind of the high vis safety gilet on at work and I think official Brenda just has the house coat or the tabard. Is that helpful? Yes, if I were a decent person I would be official Brenda helping with a local fun run in one of those high vis tabards. Yes, you would. You'd definitely have a rules of the modern family. What do you think about them? Just bending and changing and maybe sometimes in the moment you're allowed to say something quite honest. I think if you then back it up with that's just how I feel.

Yes, I was playing for time there because I'm genuinely not sure what the right answer is because I've been there and you have been there and indeed our correspondent has been there. They've absolutely got to have the right to love their dad, mom, whoever it might be. Totally and to receive the love from that parent. 100%. No matter what has happened. Yeah because they were not married to her, him, you were. So however you might judge their behaviour, if you possibly, talk to your mates, shut your face in front of the children. They don't need to hear it. They really don't. However, you're also right because, by God, the hours you will spend gnashing your teeth and just hoping that at some point a version, a different, the truth, Well they'll grow up, they will grow up and

they'll see things, they'll see things differently but they'll also acknowledge that you know I'm a pain in the ass. Exactly. Absolutely I am. I was just about to say exactly that. Well I bet you were. Well that's just nasty isn't it? That's just horrible. You were going to call me a pain in the ass? I know, I was supposed to be really nice to you. That's just unpleasant. I think it does exactly that. It then allows children who are turning into adults to really own their own feelings about you and sometimes they will be angry, they'll dislike you, they'll dislike a decision you've made, they can see you for who they are, so I think it helps in that regard. No, I mean I hugely irritate my offspring, in fact they have both asked me.

I can't believe that from both of them. It's true. To stop talking about the fact that Sainsbury's has stopped doing bagels. What? I know, and actually the elder one said today, why don't you mention it on your bloody podcast and see if you can do anything about it? And I suddenly remembered that we had a podcast so I could mention it. So Sainsbury's, if you are listening, why are you not doing single bagels anymore in West London? You can't get them. Just get packaged ones, they're not as good. Right, I've said it, I've asked, let's see if they

get back to us. Well maybe the bagel baker just isn't there. Maybe they're on holiday this week and they'll return. I've asked in both the big Sainsbury's and in my local Sainsbury's local. My local Sainsbury's local and no one knows the answer. How many supermarkets are you going to for baked products? Well I go to quite a few. You've got your little for your seeded grain.

That's the Granary. No that's the low GI Granary. And Sainsbury's have been the purveyor of my preferred bagel over many many years. And you like going out to the shop don't you? Oh I love going out to the shop. You like to go out and do your shopping. Now you see I've recently, so I've always been quite a big fan of alternating it, so I do like an online delivery as well. No sometimes it's really really lovely.

It does feel luxy. I have had them in the past and it feels fabulous. And if you want to do all of that absolutely massive cans and laundry powder and all that kind of hefty stuff, I like a delivery. But recently I've discovered the complete joy of an online subscription curry delivery, which I think is taking all of the wonder of things that can come to my house in one fell swoop. It's a tiny company in

Hackney and the curry arrives, I think they're trying to expand at the moment actually, they might be available where you are, it comes in a tiffin tin, you know, with the four different stacks, and each little tiffin tray has a different part of the curry in, and you can subscribe to it so it just pitches up every Friday and then you wash your Tiffin tin, you put the old one out so there's no waste at all, absolutely no waste, it's delivered on a bike, it's wonderful Jane. That is the majesty of 2025 isn't it? Sometimes things really work and they're innovative and they just fit in with your life, they're fabulous and they're an improvement on what went before. They are. For example. I think it might be coming to your neck

of the woods as well, it's called Dabberrop. It's called what? Dabbidrop. Set up by ladies. Ladies in the hood. Okay. I was just about to reference, I don't know why, but it came into my head, the Findus roast dinner in a bag. It could not be. Which featured more opposite to that. Well, I mean, I hate to mention my mother in this, but she's slightly in denial about these things, but we did have them. Boiled in the bag. Boiled in the bag.

Well, do you remember, the Findus, do you remember the tagline? What was it? Success on a plate for you. Success on a plate for you. And they had one advert where a man arrived on a speedboat in a dock, didn't he, and delivered success on a plate for you. With a Findus boil in a bag roast? Yes, yep.

Okay. Which again is a long way away from the dabber drop. It really is. Which comes on a bike. It comes on a bike. Well yeah, they could trundle the roast in a bag up the Thames and deposit it. I'm very surprised that some modern hipster hasn't reinvented the crispy pancake. That must be happening somewhere.

It probably is. All of those things are always being revived in an ironic sense, aren't they? Yes, you sometimes wonder where irony will end, really. Where do you think? I don't think it ever will, and that's ironic in itself. Very good indeed. We had some emails earlier in the week. Was it one email or several about adult children moving to Australia? Yes, we had a plea from a listener about how to deal with her grief and appear to be extremely happy when actually she's just really, really sad and upset.

Well, I love this perspective from a listener who is in Australia and I just think this is well worth hearing. I am the Australian wife of an English son who did exactly as your listener emailer is dreading. He followed me to Australia almost 30 years ago and to this day my heart still beats for both him and his parents who gave their full blessing for this relocation, something they stayed true to till they passed. He has led a wonderful life in Australia, however, there will never be the depth of friendships he had back home. In particular, he and his dad were best friends as well. And every time over 25 years, my father-in-law died five

years ago, the 48 hours leading up to goodbyes was just awful. It was filled with stoicism, but with the underlying knowledge that such a sad few hours of farewell were definitely coming. As the wife, I've always acknowledged the sacrifices, and I'm able to feel deep empathy and have shown care and sensitivity through the years. To be honest, I think I'd be bereft if our own daughter, our only child, was to follow somebody so far away. And my heart really does break for anybody experiencing this as I have seen and felt it all. I guess what I wanted to impart with this response however is that God willing your email as daughter-in-law will remember the sacrifices that come with this move and they will visit home as much as possible over the years. Well thank you for that really

really thoughtful email and it's good to get the perspective of someone who did move out to be with them and someone who's obviously tried really really hard to make it work but also has felt that pain and seen it and felt her husband's pain as well. It's really sad isn't it? I think it's very difficult and it's made better surely by decent modern comms because at least you can be FaceTiming and Zooming and see that connection. You know, you're not waiting for an airmail letter to flop in, you know, once every six weeks or so. But yeah, just very difficult and you just want your kids to be able to choose the right thing for them

but that is gonna come at a bit of a cost. I'd be quite interested to hear from people whose kids don't move far enough away. There must be some. I'm just trying to inject some levity because we've been quite serious podcast today. I'm sure it does annoy, well actually it was one of the themes of Colm Toybean's book, wasn't it? Oh, yes, well both books I suppose in a way. Yeah, the families were in very claustrophobic places because Tony's Italian-American family all lived in one cul-de-sac. They were all, back to Knott's Landing, aren't they? And back in Ireland, actually it was a small town that...

I'm going to pronounce it wrong. I'm going to say Ailey, but would you say it differently? The heroine of the books. Gosh, you know, I don't think I... Did I ever say her name out loud? It's funny, isn't it? When you're reading it to yourself, you just go in your head with, yeah, OK, I'm going to just... That's who she is to me. But part of the reason why she left was because the small Irish village, you just go in your head with, yeah okay, I'm just, that's who she is to me. But she,

part of the reason why she left was because the small Irish village town thing was doing her head in. So I'm sure it is an area of consternation. If you marry somebody whose family are as tight as a fist and you have to move in basically with all of them, I'm sure that that presents enormous challenges. I think it does, Fee. Yeah. Does it? Yes. But they were in the West Midlands.

Anonymous says. You'd say Eilish. Eilish. Is Eilish or Eilish? Eilish or Eilish. OK. I went through the whole book just calling her Ailey. I don't know why. I'm sorry about that. Can I issue a...

I mean this is appalling that we both made this mistake and it's taken Keir, our Australian colleague, to point this out to me. Mary Wollstonecraft was in fact the mother of Mary Shelley. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, I jumped in an agreement. So... I hope she has a band an agreement. So, okay. Have you got this email from Anonymous? Have you seen this one?

You go for that one because I've got one talking vaginas on a Beijing bookshelf. Oh, well, this is also about Australia and moving. I'm also preparing to say goodbye to my son as he moves from Australia to the UK. I'm trying very hard to stay positive, especially since I can hardly complain given that I did the same thing to my own mother. I've been thinking about this a lot lately and it feels like every attempt to be helpful results in me being told to be quiet. I'm sure it's just due to the stress but it also feels like he's already starting to create some distance. Yeah ouch I bet that's painful.

On top of that, I do have stresses at home. My other son, who's 23, is not working at the moment and lacks motivation. He constantly says he doesn't know what he wants to do and I feel powerless because I believe he should have more direction at his age. We encouraged him to go for an interview last week but the company expected an average of 60 hours a week which he probably correctly felt would be too much for his mental health. I'm truly now at a loss about where to go from here. Oh Anonymous, love to you too because this is this is difficult one one child going to the other side of the world and the other one sticking around but in that I mean we've all been there in our 20s I think your 20s that we've one child going to the other side of the world and the other one sticking around.

But in that, I mean, we've all been there in our 20s. I think your 20s, we've said it before, are really tough. You can feel very vulnerable. It can also feel that other people are having a go at you all the time, like your mum and dad, if you're lucky enough to have them, or unlucky enough to have them, depending on your view. And you just, it's hard. It's very particular, as we said already this week, it's hard, it's very particular, as

we said already this week, it's just hard for these young people at the moment because things do seem horribly uncertain and weird. And also it's the comparison thing, Jane. So, you know, if you're looking for jobs on LinkedIn and all you ever get on LinkedIn is updates from other people, your contemporaries at university or someone you once worked with, you know, bragging, which is what you have to do on LinkedIn about your latest achievement or job upgrade or whatever. It's just, it would be impossible to really keep on an even keel. You know, we didn't used to know when, you know, let's say you had 20 friends at university and a wider circle of maybe 50 people who you knew of.

You didn't ever find out about their, within that kind of wider band, their latest promotion. Unless you went home and your mum had met their mum at the shops. Absolutely. And then it was really annoying. But now you'll be getting notifications all of the time and then before you fall asleep, you're flicking through Instagram and they've all been at a festival in Croatia you know all they're celebrating an engagement or all of that kind of stuff it's it's mind-boggling really really mind-boggling so I hope that I

hope they will find a way through it I thought Casper Lee yesterday was interesting though because there's a bloke who made his name and a fortune in his teenage years being very visible on the YouTube, then realised it wasn't great for him and he didn't want to stay doing it, so he's transferred his skills to behind the camera. It seems to have really benefited him. I mean, obviously it has done financially, but also in terms of all of the anxiety that he was feeling about his place in the world. I think, you know, we need to amplify those stories,

don't we? And I mean, I have no way of knowing whether every single influencer that his global marketing brand agency deals with is in the right place, but at least it sounds like he recognizes there can be huge problems if they're not in the right place, but at least it sounds like he recognizes there can be huge problems if they're not in the right place but making shed loads of money. You know, telling you that if you rub magnesium pastels in between your big toe and your little toe somehow, all of the world's ills will be cured. I'm still getting a lot of magnesium

on the Insta. Are you? Are you getting that on the Insta? I'm getting lots of text messages saying that my CV has been passed on. Oh and... It's wonderful, I've not got one, but how fabulous. Have you been invited to call a certain number? Yes, absolutely. Because they want to talk to you about your job interview status?

Yes. Yeah, I'm having that too. Isn't that weird? So I always reply to them, I just say cock off. Say cock off. I wrote back, this is bollocks. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Because in the moment you feel a little bit of power. Yeah, I mean, whether it does any good for you, I don't know. Oh no, but I love the fact that we both turned into our filthy selves in response to that kind of unwanted mail. Yes, I did spell bollocks correctly. Did you? Well that's good. I didn't do it with the X on the end. No, I don't do it with the X. And did you use punctuation?

Yes, I put a full stop. Oh yeah, full stops are triggering for some people aren't they? I like them. They once told me that I used too much punctuation on WhatsApp. I know, I've been told that. What's the world come to? That's your criticism of your mum. I'm just trying and I'm quite small.

I am trying and I am small. Laura says, listener since the old days, your discussion of holiday bookshelves brought back a memory. I lived in Beijing from 1985 to 1986. A few months in I was desperate for something fresh to read so I cycled to the Friendship Store. This shop was only open to foreigners and high-ranking Chinese officials and mostly sold food and gifts. I tracked down the small shelf of books, all

classics, and as I'd just finished a degree in French I bought a novel by Didier Rowe. On taking it home I was amazed and amused to find it was a fable about a magic ring that would cause women's vaginas to tell bawdy tales. I mean that's the French for you isn't it? I, am I very ignorant? I've not heard of this. Had you heard of it? What the French? I hadn't heard of it. I'm assuming this is a French novel. Yeah. I'm assuming it is too.

I don't think the French... You've really got it in for the French. No, I'm just... I mean, there are all kinds of weird folklore stories, aren't there, about wizened old grannies living in woods and that kind of thing with strange sexual powers. I'm trying to remember the name. It's not Babaganush. That's a spread. That's an aubergine dip. Babushka. That's a popular paste with the young. What is it? Anyway, I'm way off track here. Take me back to the path of righteousness. Carry on. China was extremely straight-laced at that time. For example, I was warned to stop pairing my baggy trousers with a belt that had a dangling end because the tassel pointed to my whatever and would give men ideas. I can only imagine that a French wholesaler, I can't say that word, I apologise, had been asked to provide a selection of classic literature and it amused

them to send the raciest they could find. See you in Scotland, I'll be there with my friend Moira. Well Laura, identify yourself to us with your tassel. We will say a very fond hello to you. That's quite funny isn't it? That's great. That's North Berwick and we're going there on? We're going to be there next Friday. Next Friday? A week on Friday? A week on Friday. Let's go round quick hasn't it? It has. Well not really because we seem to have been talking about it all year if I'm honest. But our guest is Judy Murray. So very much looking forward to that. And we did have an email actually saying that from one listener at least who is supporting the Lionesses in Scotland. And I, you know, there's no reason why you should tell us that you are if you're in Scotland. But it's quite heartening to know that some of the love has spread up there as we say. Yeah we've got one person. One person in Scotland. Is it slightly

less annoying that it's the women rather than the men? I imagine it might be but anyway it's only as you say it's only positively impacted on one person so far. Just congratulations to Anita and her daughter because she's written to us before about her mother of the bride outfit at her daughter's wedding. The wedding has taken place, what a lovely occasion it looks. It was amazing she says, I looked awful, I was hung over after pizza the night before. I do this to myself roughly once in every six or seven years. Clearly this was the occasion. I was bloated, I was sweaty from the heat and steaming her huge wedding dress. But it wasn't about her, it was bloated, I was sweaty from the heat and steaming her huge wedding dress. But it wasn't about her, it was about me, so I'm fine with that. People

cried after my speech. Her father died years ago, so it was down to me to do it. I know it's boring, but I'm sending you some pictures because you're almost my family, so it's allowed. It's not boring, it's lovely. I'm glad you made a wonderful speech. I'm glad people were moved by it. I'm sorry you felt a wonderful speech. I'm glad people were moved by it. I'm sorry you felt terrible after your pizza the night before and everything you drunk. But you know what? It's a very emotional occasion and it sounds... I mean the bride looks... Could she look any happier? How wonderful. So your daughter looks so beautiful.

Gorgeous. And there's one kind of portrait picture of her which I think is just one of those ones. Obviously you're going to keep that for life, but it captures a young woman who is, I think, I mean she just looks, she looks radiant, gorgeous, all of those usual adjectives. But well done you as well for making the speech, because that's not an easy thing to do, because in the moment you know that everybody is thinking, poor you, poor family, it would have been somebody else, so you're gonna really, really miss your husband in that moment, aren't you?

But also, naughty Anita, naughty Anita, because you sent us pictures of everybody else, but you haven't sent us a picture of you. And you know, we're here for that, so we'd quite like to see a picture of you on the wedding day. And I bet that you don't look sweaty, bloated, steamy and and you know covered in mozzarella. Yeah I think you are but I'm glad you had a lovely day it looks

absolutely splendido. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep the one and only Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces, like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park. Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf.

The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these things. There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast, we're chatting to the secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Lonnie G. Bunch, who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash wdc. Gary Newman is a pioneer of music, the dad of synth prop. He sold over

10 million records and his story is incredible really. Possibly music took him out of a difficult place in his early life where his Asperger's wasn't recognised. One of his teachers said he was the most disruptive pupil his school had ever had. But he found himself a huge star in his 20s with his musical talent, first with Chewboy Army and then just as him, our friends Electric and Cars stand the test of time and if you too listen to them when they first came out you know the power of their musical punch and they really still have that. He announced his retirement from live performances after three sellout shows at Wembley when he was just 23, a

decision we'll talk about in a moment and we're meeting him today to talk about the release of a live album recorded back at Wembley, just the 41 years later. The intervening years are interesting. Two 19 solo studio albums, plenty more time back on stage, a hugely successful revival bump, courtesy of the Sugar Babes, Three Kids, A Lovely Wife, and Gary is here with us now.

Hello, Gary. Hello. Is it excruciating to have to sit in front of people and listen to bits of your oeuvre? Do you find it, what's going through your head in the last kind of one minute eight seconds? I'm just watching the news about the tsunami. I don't like it at all. It sounds like it's sort of artificial humble pie, but I know lots of people that do what I do for a living and very few of them like to sit back and listen to themselves or watch their videos.

Yeah, for sure. And it sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Because obviously you put a lot of thought on that into what you do, but I don't know. I just, I don't. No. No, I'm watching the news because my kids are still in Los Angeles. I'm waiting for this tsunami to arrive. Hopefully they'll be in Strewford enough to go down to the beach to look at it. Sure.

I think it seems to have been much more weakened than the scientists were at first predicting. So hopefully they'll be okay. Tell us more about that 23- old. I mean it's just very young to deal with huge fame, to deal with success. Can you take us back to where you were when you created those first two amazing songs that we played there and the effect that it then had on you? The fame thing when that first happens and all that comes with it,

you've read a lot about it as you're growing up, that's why you want to do it. You want to be in a band and play music and become famous and all of the trappings of that. But most of the things that I'd read, they miss out so much of the the other side of it You know the baggage that comes with it so you you go into that with that sort of wild-eyed Dream so pretty naive Really I did anyway for sure. I don't know if the Asperger's adds to that or helps in anyone. I'm not sure but So it wasn't what I expected at all. And it sounds again, it sounds ungrateful and childish to have to have become that successful and find something wrong with it. You know, but I did.

I did not enjoy it. I did not like the that there is so much weirdness that comes with it. You know, death threats and all sorts of things. And it's just and the press were horrible very and and it was tarnished on almost every level so you and I realized that it wasn't doing me any good you know whatever sort of mental health things that were going on it was doing me no good at all and so the idea to get away from it I think

was a really sensible idea for somebody that young in the middle of everything. I mean, I had no manager. I was on my own, so to speak. And I think to realize what was happening to me and realize where it could go and how bad it could get was a really, really smart thing, really smart thinking in the middle of all that chaos. And so the idea to pull out when I did Wembley, um, I think was a really sound move. You know, it was a very surprisingly mature thing

for somebody that was actually quite immature at the time. The way I did it was where the immaturity showed. Why? Because I make a great big thing about it. Yeah. I should have just done it. Should have just shut my mouth up, quietly step back, taken the time I needed, you know, re should have just done it. Should have just shut my mouth up quietly step back Taking the time I needed, you know reevaluated everything. Do I really want this? Do I it really works? Going here. I I just wanted to become a better songwriter. I I thought i've been really really lucky You know our friends electric Was the first number one and that was actually two songs bolted together because I couldn't finish either of them So not particularly high quality songwriting and cars I'd been to London and bought a bass guitar to learn to play bass better and the first four notes of cars were the very first

four notes I played when I got the guitar out. Didn't plan that you know it just fell on my feet really you know so it, I couldn't take any kind of credit for being talented. I didn't feel talented at all. I just felt incredibly lucky. And so I wanted to learn how to do what I was supposed to be doing. And then the songwriting part,

I wanted to do that better. And so I needed time. I needed to get away from all the chaos and all the weirdness and just step back from all of that and just concentrate on being at home writing songs, getting better at what I was supposed to be doing and that's that's why I did it. The mistake was saying I was going to do it. Why were the press so hard on you? Oh I don't know, you know it's such a long time ago now, 45, 46 years ago.

I think electronic music was very new and a lot of people didn't take to it. They saw it as a threat to guitar dominance. They saw it as a change in music that was unwelcome. I was the first of the big stars, I suppose, to come along. I was the first one that had massive success with it and so I think all of that hostility that they felt towards it, which did change over time, but initially all that hostility was directed at me because I was the biggest one at the time. You know and I think a year or two later when other people have come along who were

every bit as good as me if not better and had success people started to accept it more and so the hostility that they had to endure was way less if any at all but for some reason it stuck with me but I think that my Asperger's probably played a part in that you know I probably could have handled it so much better if I'd have been more... Gary, I think you're being so hard on yourself though. I mean you were very young and as you say you hadn't got a manager around and also I mean I understand what you say about how you'd read about being famous and you know the trappings of it and stuff like that but nobody can possibly know, can they, what

it feels like until they're actually in it and whether or not they are the right kind of person to deal with it. I think it's learning like a lot of things you have to learn what's good and what's not so good and learn how to navigate that you know how to find more time for the things that you enjoy in it and how to navigate through the bad bits. It's like my two of my children, my oldest and my middle, Raven and Persia, they are both heading this way. Raven's already had singles out, Persia's at a music college now, and I'm not worried

about them coming into it. Well, I am a little bit, actually, if I'm truthful, but because I've been through it all myself for you know almost my entire life they've got somebody right there that can help with that same navigation problems that I didn't have anyone to help with and so um but it yeah no it's difficult you know when you read about being famous it sounds amazing doesn't it it sounds really really good you know everyone knows who you are and there's lots of money, supposedly.

Was any of it good? Yeah, lots of it. Lots of it was really good. You must have met fantastic people. Yeah, I met some that were fantastic and some that were a disappointment. Who was a disappointment? No, that's not fair. I'm sure I am to lots of people. No, you're not. I can tell to have to build you up here, Gary.

That's our job. It's a truth though, isn't it, that things might be very different now because certainly in terms of your relationship with fans, we've seen Lewis Capaldi do that recently where he needed to go away and have some time to himself. He had to leave the stage, literally, but he's got methods of telling people that now. You can talk to people on social media, you can actually confess where your head is, I think an awful lot easier, and expect some sympathy rightly for that. So is there a bit of you that thinks, God, if only I'd been on this later? No, not at all. No, I think social media is 90% evil. I mean, it's just an awful burden on all of us. I'm thinking about that only today actually, on the way here.

But I just, I wish it wasn't there. I do. So it's no, no, social media is no comfort whatsoever. Do you think it can connect you to your fans at all? If you mentioned anything on social media about anything, you could say the nicest thing, and then somebody will find a problem with it. You know, I don't even have feedback on my social media anymore.

It's all turned off, no comments, don't wanna hear. There's too many idiots out there, there's too many weird people that just feel they've got to say something horrible. So no, I'm glad it happened when it happened, and I didn't have to have the whole social media thing falling on your shoulders I Sympathize with people today. I mean how many people have killed themselves? They've got a little bit successful. You know, they've been on one of these

reality TV shows or something and suddenly the onslaught of people descends upon them and they Go to ruin. It's common, but it happens fairly too often. I didn't have any of that. I had people writing me nice letters, which I didn't bother to read. So I think I got off lightly compared to what people have to go through now.

I don't look at any feedback, any comments, even now. I don't have hostility in the way that I used to. It's nearly all pleasant now when I do occasionally see it. No, I don't need opinion. I don't need good opinions. I don't need somebody patting me on the back and telling me how great I am. I certainly don't need the other side of it. I don't need it. I like what I do. And I'm happy doing what I do. And as long as my family are okay, and I can give them the life that I feel they deserve I know I know that I hope for them then that's all I want out of this. I certainly don't need praise. I've been number one Can't do it. No, you can't get any higher than that. So who cares about opinion? I really I really really don't Give a monkeys. Do you mean this when you went back to Wembley and we're talking to you today because of the new live album

A Perfect Circle, which is out, can you talk us through how that felt? And actually, your daughters came on stage with you, yeah? Yeah, that was amazing. That made me feel really old. It was probably the best day of my life, I made me feel really old. No, no, it was it was um, it was probably the best day of my life I think really, you know from a career point of view, I'm obviously You know being married and getting married and having the children that they're all truly special But from a musical career point of view the best moment was was that Wembley show was getting back to there? Cuz I'd wanted it for so long, You know, having done it in 81,

having retired in 81 briefly, didn't even retire for that long. And then realizing that you've done it the wrong way and you've made a terrible mistake and you've really, really shot yourself in the foot, career-wise. That desire to get back there just become, you know, ever more important.

And then it took decades. So by the time you actually get there, how can something that's been that long in the dreaming ever live up to that dream? You build it up into this just ridiculous moment and then it arrives and you're just so worried that it's not gonna live up to it or that you're going to do something wrong. You're going to make a mess of it because it's been 40 plus years trying to get back there. You know,

it was really, really special. I lost it twice in the hour before I did it. My dad was there. Sadly, my mom died before I got back there, which was a shame, but my dad was there. And they went and got my dad to give me a pep talk. My dad's pep talks involved tapping me on the bat and going, you'll be all right. That was it. That's the old style, isn't it? That's how it should be. That's what I used to say when I was a teenager, first time in doing little clubs and things,

I used to get so terrified, such bad stage stage fright and that was his pep talk then it's like the word for word You know three taps and it was about three pats on the back and you'll be all right Fantastic. Well, why change a good thing? It's lovely. It's lovely that he did it and then and the fact that he did it just made me laugh and it just fixed everything You know and the other pep talk was from your wife I think your wife needs a big mention in all of this because from what I've read about her she is a person who has just helped you stay true to yourself and just been there all the way through the vagaries of the music industry and you know

people like that she's not on the stage or in the studio here with you now but they're so important aren't they? Yeah I mean me being here is because of her you know when when we met I was massively in debt, about a million or more, really badly in debt and the career was finished. I had no record deal, they were trying to repossess my house it was it was grim you know it used to make me laugh when people would say that she was a gold digger. She kept me going for the first few years because she had a job and I didn't. So it was not what people thought at all. Not that I cared.

But she was the one that sorted me out. She was the one that made me fall in love with making music again. I just didn't enjoy it anymore. It had become a job that I didn't enjoy. I wasn't even paying, you know, and I was hating everything about it. And she was able to talk me, she showed me things that were very inspiring.

She made me, after much arguing, she eventually made me see where I've been going wrong, where my thinking would be going wrong, and because of her everything turned around and the moment we met was probably the lowest point of my life ever and ever since then it's just been better. Does she come and watch you perform? Oh god yeah, I don't tour without her. I don't go anywhere without her.

I think, just sitting outside now, you know, we don't do... We've been together 33 years now, I think, married 20...28. Fantastic, well congratulations. But I often think that's a weird one, Gary, to watch the person that you know and love in a domestic setting, in a family setting, then go out and be the one who's being adored by lots of strangers. I always think that's quite a hard thing to do, actually. Does she think

it's a bit of a gear change? I don't think so. She was a fan before. She still loves her music now. That would help, Gary, wouldn't it? That would definitely help. It does make certain things a bit easier, yeah. But I've never done a tour without her. I think she's only missed three shows. I don't know how many I've done since being together,

eight or nine hundred, some of that, maybe a thousand. I think she's missed three through ill health, or might only be two actually. So she's missed three through ill health or might need to be two actually. So she's just there always. We don't do anything separately. We don't go anywhere. We don't have boys. We didn't even have a, when we got married, there was no hen night or stag night.

We had a thing called hag night, I think, where we all went out together. We don't do any of that stuff. We just, my best friend, you know. Fabulous. How nice to hear. You played Glastonbury and I know that that was not without its drama because your hearing is possibly not what it used to be and did the Glastonbury set slightly expose that? It was alright. It was, I'm really, I really going deaf really badly. You know I have hearing aids I've had for years now just to do this for a time, to talk. I couldn't really talk without them.

Stage wise it's becoming increasingly difficult. We're constantly working on it. Before we did Glastonbury, in the week leading up to Glastonbury, we did some warm-up shows and the first one of those was awful. I really couldn't hear it. And I panic. This is it. This is the end. It's finally got that bad. And I spent hours and hours and hours the next morning playing the music again and again and going through various EQ options to find out which EQ would help, you know, and I found one. And so we then put that onto the desk. We also use that at Glastonbury and it worked. It gives me enough clarity. The trouble is I don't hear pitch and everything it's as if the music is mumbling.

So it's horrible. So you don't know where to sing. You don't know what note to sing to because you can't hear it. And worse than that you hear harmonics of the note you should sing. So you're hearing all these weird notes and you think, I know that's not right but I don't know where I'm supposed to be. So you just go for it and get it wrong half the time and you look an idiot and it's really embarrassing and it's just horrible. But we keep finding ways of getting around it.

But I think my time is limited because of that. I don't know how long I can do it. I'd love to do it forever, you know, but it is a problem and it is slowly getting worse and it will stop me at some point. Right. So gosh, that's quite something to consider, isn't it? It is for me, it's the way I'm living. Has there always been an insurance kind of career in the background? You're a qualified pilot, aren't you? A private pilot, so I couldn't go and do it for living. No, there's no but the only the only other interest I've got that's creative And I never really I'm gone for properly and always wanted to is writing stories write novels short stories or novels I most of my albums are several of my albums stars short stories and then they become records because I

I'm always busy making another record, you know, I don't have time to they become records because I'm always busy making another record. You know, I don't have time to dwell on the storytelling. But if the music thing stopped, then I would definitely do that. Well, I don't know what you think, Jane, but I suspect that a Gary Newman novel would be a thing of beauty. I think you should definitely give it a go. Charlotte wants you to know that you play a special part in her life. Thirteen years ago Charlotte's male midwife had a tattoo of Gary Newman's whole face on his arm. I will always link the two. Says Charlotte, who's in Seven Oaks this afternoon. So you were at the birth, Gary. Oh, nice to know.

And Susan says, I know that Gary doesn't want praise, but he's so sensible, kind and nice. He sounds totally fantastic. I can't believe we're out of time already Gary, but it's been really really lovely to meet you. My pleasure. Really really lovely to talk and I think you're right, I think you said some incredibly sensible things along the way so we appreciate that very much. A Perfect Circle live at the OVO, Rena Wembley is available now on all platforms and you do have some gigs coming up later in the year. November, yes. Lovely. Gary Newman and I haven't listened to the entirety of the new Off Air playlist but I wonder whether anyone has popped a little bit of Gary

Newman onto the playlist. If not then we should. No? Not yet. Well they can't do it with a Rosie card. So we'll keep a Gary Newman for one of our themed playlists in the autumn. But I think just a remarkable story, Jane. I mean 23 is so young. As we were saying earlier in the podcast, it's an overwhelming time of your life. So actually if you're hit with all of this extraordinary sudden fame and adulation, but you're not enjoying it, everybody around you is going, for it go for it sell more tickets make more records all that kind of stuff and then weirdly the press are being a bit ticky and the music press can be really ticky can't it? Really ticky. I mean how are you equipped to deal with that?

I don't think you're not. No but how lovely to be able to talk to the 67 year old man about all of that because that's quite a journey He's come through and he's still doing his thing good for him Gary Newman and we're back tomorrow our guest tomorrow Daisy Goodwin And it's been we actually haven't had a lot of Scouse content. Thank goodness There will be some in tomorrow's podcast because Daisy is on to talk about her new play which is about the relationship between our late queen. What's he got written on your hand? I'm listening. What does that say? It says 10.30. What should you have done at 10.30? No, that's my hair appointment on Friday. Oh, interesting. Sorry, you were saying. Yes, the relationship between our late queen, still much missed, and her

dresser who was a woman called Angela Kelly and Angela was, you'll never guess where she was from. So we'll discuss that tomorrow on the podcast. Good day. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city?

Yep, the one and only. Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park. Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf. The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these things.

There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast, we're chatting to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Lonnie G. Bunch, who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash WDC.