Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Taking a lively interest in myself (with Sabine Durrant)

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

Jane and Fi are here to vibe you through the summer! They cover Ellen-style selfies, wearing shorts in the office, cheap tin foil, leaving Southampton, and why Jane knows a couple of things about Panama...Plus, writer Sabine Durrant discusses her latest crime novel, Dead Heat. Fi's recommendations from today's episode: Stars and Bars by William Boyd, crime novels by Brian McGilloway, Trouble Man: The Life and Death of Marvin Gaye by Steven Turner, and The Secret History by Donna Tartt. You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome. Well, I know we've had quite a few emails from people saying they're listening, they're listening at a different time and they can't believe. Did you see that one from somebody who said, they couldn't believe that everything we talked about on the very first day here at Times Radio has come back again? Well, can you read that email? Because I thought it was fascinating.

How quickly we forget. We do. But we really are. We're just caught in a loop, aren't we? Just in a total permanent loop. It feels that way. Marina, here we are. her email is entitled

The more things change, the more things stay the same. I've started re-listening to off-air from the very first week that you moved to the Times. I mean, and it has to be said that what was making the news then is almost identical to what is making the news now. So here we go. On your very first day,

a weary Jamie Oliver was talking about the revolving door of prime ministers and the feeling of banging your head against a brick wall. There was a lively discussion on why there are so few male games. footballers. A few days later, Liz Trost resigned and a mocking Kirstama, relishing the humiliation of her being out on her ear, was stating that what the UK needed was stability.

You interviewed David Lammy, who said that a general election was now essential as a new unelective Tory leader didn't have a mandate. And a listener wrote in to prompt you to interview an unknown, the name of Rachel Reeves, who might be the new chancellor. I thought the parallels were uncanny, and I wonder if I've just been asleep for the last couple of years, and I've worked up to realise that all we're doing is just reliving perpetual miseries. The saying, the more things change, the more things stay the same, or for fluent French speakers like Jane, plus a change, plus their same shows, has never been more apt. Marina, I'm not sure I got that completely right, but you would have done and thank you very much.

You're so right about everything, Marina. And I don't know, it's just a bit, I mean, sometimes when things repeat, it's reassuring, but in this instance, it's just really frustrating. It feels frustrating. We do need to I don't know we need to get off the merry-go round

of in politics you haven't done exactly what I wanted you to do therefore you should go because that's what keeps on happening and the thing that it should be telling us

is that we've got some problems that you can't solve we're not quickly anyway no but it would take a very long time and Kirstremer did try and do that at the beginning didn't he He did, when he arrived, he did the, there's no magic money tree. Things are going to get much worse and then they will get better.

And I think that might have been a mistake. And that was a mistake. And we said at the time, didn't we? I remember saying, I just don't want the doom. You know, even if that's what you can see, you know, it's a little bit like a, you know, a parent facing, you know, some kind of big thing that the kids are witnessing. You do try and tell them it's going to be okay, even though you can quite patently see, you know, that the hillside's on fire.

But you don't say that. And I think if all Andy Burnham can do is vibe us for a bit. Doctor feel good. I feel that we need vibing. Vibus through the summer. Vibus through the summer and we'll get to the other side and then we'll have a regroup in a realistic fashion. Yeah.

I'm still slightly grinding my gear. about his entitlement and that picture that we were talking about that selfie thing I think you said it would come back to haunt him yeah so this is I don't think did we talk about it on the podcast or the show it's like I can't remember on the show so Andy Burnham when he was sworn in in parliament he then went to Central Hall the Great Hall which is where many many dead kings and queens are buried's vast place with these huge stained glass windows it's witnessed an awful lot of history and lots of labour and MPs gathered on the steps behind him because they're coming out of the House of Commons and he took an Ellen-style selfie with him and hundreds of kind of adoring. I mean, it looked like one of those, you know, when AI generates pictures of hundreds of dogs all sitting up and begging.

The tongue's hanging out. Well, it was a bit like that, wasn't it? Panting. Yeah, I think some of them were literally doing that. We see you. We know what you're saying. It's keep me in my job. Yeah. Or give me a job. And we were saying on the show that actually that's, I don't think that's going to date very well that picture. Well, I think a lot of people were quite irritated by it. I mean, I love the idea of Darren Jones announcing today or letting it be known that he wouldn't be challenging him. And I'm not being funny, but let's be honest, 75% of the population is, Darren O.

Can you even get his title right? I think he's chief, current, I looked it up actually, because I wasn't sure, chief secretary. To the prime minister's office. Yeah, there you go. Weird one. No, sorry, love. We don't know. Nobody knows who you are. And I'm still disappointed that no woman appears to be in the running. But what do you think? Okay, because I'm genuinely conflicted here. The notion is that because Andy Burnham is a man, he's going to feel under a certain pressure. In fact, we're told he might feel under a certain pressure to appoint solely women to the big offices of state. So, Chancellor, Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary. Well, he's got women in Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary positions already. And Chancellor.

And, yes, and Chancellor at the moment, but Rachel Reeves is going. Yeah. So is that tokenistic or is that the right thing to do? And I genuinely don't know. And does it put pressure on the women who get the jobs or keep the jobs in some cases? And people think, well, they're only there because they're women. It definitely does that. Yeah.

It definitely does that. And I did hear Edwina Curry, former Health Secretary and a Conservative government. She was only a health minister. Health minister. Sorry. I think she might like you to think. Sorry, she probably does. Maybe I've picked that up from her.

No, no, no. She's a good woman, actually. She is. And sometimes I think she absolutely speaks sense. But she was saying this morning, you just always got to appoint the best person for the job. And that's the argument against it. But my argument, Jane, would be we've had a lot of people

in those positions of power who've been shite. They have not been the best man for the job. Why does it suddenly, then when it's a woman, have to be the absolute best? It's a bar that the men aren't meeting. Some recent chancellors have just been shoddy. Some recent prime ministers Can you think of one?

Have just been such flailing, just off turbets. Just cockwumbles. Yes, all of that. I'm thinking of one in particular anyway. And so that argument for me is just like, oh, just don't, don't do that. There's something about being a woman that means that you might not be the best person for the job. Just please, please don't say that. Let's just rest that argument.

Well, we see how they do. Let's see how. What concept. Well, I do. That's very bold. Right. Another thing that was made very clear last night is that it's not coming home, is it? It's not. Well, the Garnetans.

No, they put up, I mean, it turned out they were quite keen to have a bash at winning the game. Well, at least not losing. Yes. I thought they, I thought they were amazing, actually. So wherever there was one England player, there appeared to be six. Because it was my birthday My daughters did agree to watch it with me It's so good of them

One only last didn't until half time But the elder one, the more dutiful stayed the bitter end, as she should have done And she kept saying, have they just got more players? I mean it was incredible like that Yeah And also they're, do you know what, they are They are so big, aren't they?

Footballers in general these days But I thought that the Garnayan's shoulders in particular They're almost not shaped like footballers used to be shaped. Does that make sense? Well, I think, I remember listening to something and actually if you look at the England, the team that actually won the World Cup in 1966,

they're quite puny. They are slender, aren't they? I mean, they're probably undernourished because they grew up in, during the war. They will have done, weren't they? They would have grown up under, let's see, if they were 66 and they were born in... They would have been born in the, in the mid-40s.

But they would have still... Food rationing when they were tiny. They weren't enormous at all. So, yeah, I mean, Garner were very, very good. I will say that we want to shout out to Jed Spence, who was the only England player, who didn't shake the hand of Thomas Party. Who is the Garnian player accused of rape?

And obviously, he's at this point only accused of it. But well done, Jed, we see you. Yeah, and it was good to see, actually, it was noted, wasn't it, at half-time in the coverage here? Oh, did they actually say it? By Gabby Logan. Okay. Well, brilliant.

I'm glad you did. Yeah. So, yes, we've had a good old dowsing of reality. overnight. But, you know, still very much everything to play for, Jen. I'm sure we can do the business against the mighty Panama. Look, I've never been to Panama. The only thing I know about

Panama, number one, the hat. And a canal. And the other thing is that weird man who sort of, you know, that couple who got up to some, they were a couple who she pretended he was dead and got the insurance money. Oh, do you see the one who took off in a canoe? I think so. And they were. went to Panama, isn't that right? Yes, they did. They ended up in Panama. I think maybe it's not got an extradition treaty with us. Should we ask Young Eve to look that up? Over the years, her search history, God alone knows what it looks like. Currently looking at,

has Panama got an extradition treaty with the UK? So the countries that the UK does not have extradition treaties with is our own personal access of tax evil, isn't it as well? So, you know, wherever it is you can't come back from. It tends to be where... Here she is. You can pop your money. It does, and it dates back to 1907. Oh dear.

However, in practice, this treaty is considered quite dated and complicated to navigate. High-profile exterditions between the two countries historically face significant procedural hurdles. Thank you very much. God, how did we get from Marina's wonderful email onto this? We covered a lot of ground change. This is why we've kept going, a lot of ground. Some people are very kindly going back to listen to our entire back-outle from the BBC. Was that Alexandra?

Yes. Yes. And she's a very young one as well. And I think it may be an idea to do that kind of thing when you are young. It's just the R.A. Alex is formerly of East West Kensington. Dear Jane Fiennif, I wanted to write to tell you about what is possibly my greatest achievement to date for reference. sign 28, but I fear I may nevertheless have peaked. Having stumbled across your book a couple of years,

write a book together, Jane. Did I say that out loud? That's the title of it, and it's still very much available. I set about binging your entire podcast-based works, all 10-ish years worth. Here we are, about 18 months later, and I'm thrilled to report that I'm now entirely up-to-date. In all seriousness, thank you for coming concert in my day. Well, that's quite all right. Alex goes on to say, I am, however, someone who suffers from the increasingly common condition that is thinking I'm right all the timitis. And given that you both seem to echo an alarming number of my thoughts and opinions, I can confirm you've done nothing to cure me of this. The plus side of having caught up is I can now finally email you in real time, rather than cursing that the topic I want to weigh in on was discussed two years ago. Alex, don't let that hold you back.

No, never let it hold you back. We are quite happy to return to our back catalogue. Dust it down. Give it a bit more of an airing. And a front of the shelf. There are some recurring topics on that. Certainly are. Can we welcome a listener from Japan, Akiko.

This is my very first message to a radio program. I've been listening to your podcast for over a year, and I do enjoy your conversations. I just couldn't help sending a message after hearing you discuss the two World Cup players facing rape charges. I'm Japanese, and we also have two players here who were charged with sexual assault,

although the cases against them were later dropped. They are now playing for the national team without much public discussion or hesitation. Because the team is doing well and people are excited, almost no one except my female friends talks about it. There are hardly any newspaper articles or TV discussions about this controversial issue. To me, it shows how easily these sorts of issues are overlooked.

Thank you for mentioning Alice Monroe. I should look up that article you discussed, And by the way, I love Jumper Lahiri as well. My favourite book of hers is Unaccustomed Earth. My first language is Japanese. I don't always understand all of your jokes, but I do enjoy listening to your conversations. Thank you.

Akiko, well, thank you. Thank you for being a part of this. And thanks so much for getting in touch. We really appreciate that. We do. We will be considering Jumper Lahiri's the interpreter of maladies in about three weeks' time. I know some people are still waiting to get it

from a library or something like that to take away on their holidays. It's the book of short stories. Have you started it yet? Not as such. Are you taking it on your vacants? All vacants. All vacants. Well ad-dwan.

I could do, but it kind of fits into, I've got just a few, what I might call, leisure reads for the trip. Is that all right? That's absolutely fine. Jane and I were very kindly asked by the Sunday Times if we'd do a little piece about what? we'd recommend as our greatest sunlanger reads of all time. And I think that pops up this weekend.

Does it, doesn't it? Yeah, if people want to go and search of that. I thought it was a list that showed great breadth. Breath, breath. Breast. Great breath. Yes. Well, we've plumped for some, I mean,

I think in both our cases, genuine books we genuinely liked. Oh, yes. Yeah. No, there's none of that, James Joyce Ulysses. No, I haven't gone for you. I nearly did. I nearly thought she'll put something in there

that I haven't read, but it'll make people think, she's brainyer than I thought. But then I thought, no, just be yourself. Totally, totally. I was trying to choose some books for my 20-year-old this morning, who's often a great big trip quite far away, long flights involved, and he wanted to take some new things to read with him.

And what a joy that is, actually. You must have done that with your girls when you go through your bookshelves. Pick out some goodies. And pick out some things that you've really, really loved. It was a really lovely, lovely 20 minutes And I went for Stars and Bars by William Boyd One of Brian Galloway's crime novels Have you ever read him?

Set in Northern Ireland He's a superb writer, absolutely superb crime writer And then Steve Turner's book About The Life of Marvin Gay Because my 20-year-old Really loves his music and it's a great story about it takes them all the way to writing what's going on

it's a really good music book that one so I just pop those out there Has he read Is it The Secret or A Secret History? A Secret History, Donna Tart No, I don't think so Is that, have you passed that on to your girls? I did pass that on

Well, certainly to the elder daughter, the younger one I would say she's been reading the same book now for quite some time and she's enjoying it But she started it over Christmas, as far as I remember. Love Island is on at the moment. Well, it is. And I think reading when you're young, it goes in spurts, doesn't it?

Yeah. Can't get enough of this and then we'll read for a while. On that note, actually, I just wanted to give a shout out to Mallory Blackman, who was made a dame in the birthday honours list last weekend, and she was the woman who turned my eldest daughter properly onto reading. She discovered Nauts and Crosses, and she's never looked back. So, Mallory Blackman, I'm so delighted by that, because sometimes you do look at those honours

and you think, well, that doesn't say, but she's great and that's brilliant. So well done her. Fabulous. The one that my son didn't want to take was David Sardaris. Oh, you really like him. I'll leave that for another time.

Or Sederis. I think he says Sederis and he'd know. I don't know. Everybody's an expert on themselves. I think I've given you one of his books in the past. I think you'd really, really... I will act on to it. Yeah.

I think you'd love him. You'd love the detail, and he would admit himself that he is the ultimate, ultimate, would you say solipsist, solip? He has definitely got an A in the art of solipsism. But he just makes it so, so funny. When you orbit yourself, so it's one stop short, is the kind of bronze medal of the narcissist. Okay.

But it's not quite, I think, dangerous as narcissists. So you take a lively interest in yourself? Very much so. But also, bit of interest. interest in other people. Tiny bit. Gosh, I don't know who that reminds me of. Back to you.

Here we are. It's an open goal. And unlike Harry Kane, she didn't miss. Oh, wow. We all make mistakes at work. I know. Have you ever seen Harry Kane properly belly laugh? He's got a sad face, hasn't he?

I don't want to wish an even sadder face on him in about 10 days. No, but he's just got the long face, isn't he? Yes, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. But I rather like him. I think she's lovely. Yeah. Shall we move on to Sue? On a bus recently, a passenger was listening to his phone and sharing it with the rest of us. It had very inappropriate dialogue. So I just gave him a long Paddington stare. It must have penetrated even his thick skin and he looked at me and he took his earplugs out and used them. On a brighter transport note, I was in London yesterday and I was impressed by younger generations giving up seats for me. Thank you, says Sue. Well, I'm glad you had that experience. Sue, because it's not always a given that people do give up their seats. But those of us of more mature years.

And the Paddington stare, it can really be effective, can't it? That's just the cold, hard, expressionless stare. Not a grimace, but just a... I've got you in my sights, that kind of look. Can you do that to strangers? I don't... I think I probably tried, probably in similar circumstances to Sue yesterday. I mean, but it wasn't great on the underground this morning. And to be honest, we're watching the football last night, the three of us at home,

and I was thinking, somebody smells, is it me? And I think a lot of people were having, they would have been, you know. We were all with you by the time we got home. I know, well, you're watching the football, you think, I just want to go to sleep. Oh, dear, anyway, it sent us all to sleep, and let's face it. Loddy girl. Now, many people are very grateful for the recommendation of Elizabeth Strout, and amongst these is Carla.

Carla's one of our regular listeners. And we love hearing from you, Carla, not least because we're going to need you sometime. Carla is a counsellor, supervisor and a coach. Yes, well, you said it. Hello, lovely, is Bonjour, from La Tray-Shord France. Jane, you'll need your big hat fan and not many clothes for Bordeaux.

Are you still going? Yes, I really hope so. Okay, right. Here I am sweltering and stocking up on mixer in all its variation. picture attached for your perusal, slathering many types of lagu frances of la Goufrancée su macaul,

practising my astonishingly good O-Level French, and not only is the Grand Pharmacy benefiting, but also a large wedge of cash is pouring into my Elizabeth Strout habit. I'm hooked on her books, thanks both for the great recommendation. Now, I'm only mentioning this, because if you're passing Jane, a pharmacy,

so the mixer, M-I-X-A, I'd never come across the brand before you very kindly bought me a VAT. I mean, it's just a VAT. It was very generous of me. It was quite a large tub of moisture. It's gorgeous. But look, they've got absolutely everything.

So, you know, it's quite reasonable. There's something there for 549. I think you'll be able to... Everything sounds better in French, isn't it? It's got a squalaine. Oh, God, that sounds lovely. And acid hyalournique. Mm.

Yeah. Some more of those will be absolutely great. I mean, she's right. You're right. It just sounds so much more... luring. I'd like to immerse myself in all of it. Good luck with your travels. I'm going to worry about you. Well, I will. I think like the kids, I might have to ask you to just send me two exes on reaching your destination.

I'll be sure to let you all know. Hilary, she's interested in men's dress. Now, I was only having a conversation with me earlier about some of our colleagues who have gone for the tailored short today. And I just don't know. What's the view of the young person? Let's bring our resident young person. Hello. Hello. Hello. I don't mind Taylor Short. I have been sympathising for once with the man who has to go into the city in a suit and there is no summer equivalent. That's true. That is true. I do think the ability to wear a dress or a skirt is one of the most wonderful things about being female. But maybe we've earned it. Maybe we've had it. Could there not be a lightweight form of kilt for the weather like this?

Well, when you go to other countries, hot countries, other cultures, men are wearing completely... Or robes. Yes, the men are wearing completely different outfits, aren't they? So maybe our Englishmen, our hot Englishman, just has to embrace a different cultural aesthetic. Well, I had an Uber drive the other day. You know, sometimes you just have a really interesting chat with someone, and he had just got back... Darling, I do it every day. Yes, you do.

He had just got back from Mecca because I said, oh, isn't it hot? And he said, well, not really. Not really. It was 50 Celsius. And I said, well, how did you cope with that? He said, well, the hotels are pretty good and they're obviously set up for exactly the kind of conditions

that we encountered. But he was a young guy probably in his late 20s and he said it was tough. It was really, really tough. I know it's something that Muslims are, at least supposed to attempt to do at some point in their lifetime. But 50 Celsius, because we now know a little bit about what it's like to try and go about your daily business in mid-30 Celsius, but 50.

Yeah, but also the hard is crowded. Oh, he said it was crowded. And you're moving all the time, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. It will move to a slightly cooler time of year relatively soon, apparently. But at the moment, it's stuck it at a time of year when you can go. When it's super, super, super hot.

Anyway. I don't mind men in shorts in the office. I just think, you know, there's quite a lot of lady flesh on display in the building as well at the moment. There are some very, very short shorts and skirts being worn. And I just don't think that we can have one rule for us and another rule for the man. I think, I know the shorts and the man that you're talking about. I don't think it's particularly distracting. It's a bit hard on him.

Does he caught your eye? It's damned with very fake praise. She briefly, you're back to Hillary. She tells us, and I'd forgotten, I know the name, I love this name, but I never really knew who he was. Bo Bromel. Bo Bromel. Good friend, and it was, they were just good friends, of the Prince Regent.

He was the ultimate dandy, wasn't he? Well, she says in the early 19th century, he decreed that the gentleman should wear either black or navy with spotless white linen and highly polished boots. Previously, men had worn silk, satin and spangles. There is a statue of Bo Brummel in German Street in tribute to his influence on male dress. Hilary, thank you for that. I actually thought Bo Bremel was associated with exactly the opposite style of male clothing.

I thought he was all out there and fancy Dan, but it turns out he was the one saying men should pair back and dress in those rather rigid ways of black or navy with white. Do you know what I can feel a special Friday guest. coming on here because it is fascinating how the two modes of dress have swapped around and you know all of the the wigs and the makeup and the peacockery yes yeah and the fancy pants that the men used to wear when did somebody first actually make the suit you know the modern well it sounds as though bow might have been right at the start of all that and it used to be

that pink was a colour for boys wasn't it and then it then it became the colour for girls and Blue went to the ball. I don't know. You're right. It's fascinating. We should get somebody on. You should get a clothing historian. Eva's very busy writing that down. Can I say a massive, massive thank you to May, who is the happy owner of three dogs and two cats,

who sent me a picture that this morning brought me joy. The Greyhound Trust, Arles, Have These Wonderful Carricatures Nitted for them. Is there a Nancy in there? And there are all these tiny knitted greyhounds in every available shade and colour. and that completely is there is a brindle little greyhound doll with a fat red collar

which is exactly what Nancy sports and it almost made me want to get on the hovercraft over to Shanklin and rush up and buy one but I'm not doing that trip again we just do that trip a lot as kids is it rocky? It's not rocky it's very...

I can still smell the marine diesel and just that just that That's that smell of leaving Southampton, which is quite kind of narrow estuary and these huge ferries and hovercrafts and stuff going out of it. And that smell is just horrible. It's still in my nostrils. Oh, dear.

It's very melancholy. There is a song called The Leaving of Liverpool, but I don't think there's one called The Leaving of Southampton. No. And I'm sure, you know, Destination, Arl of White is absolutely lovely. Yeah, oh yes, I'm sure. Let's bring in Alison, just a shout out, she says, for our local cinema.

It's the regent in my... and I've been reading about this. It's in the Stockport area. It still has an intermission for every film. I just think this is genius, complete with ice cream for sale. It's only £5.50 for the stalls and £6 £6 upstairs. That's remarkable value. So these long films are still manageable for everybody, even if even then there is a queue for the lose. I personally still prefer a shorter film unless the length feels absolutely essential. Regarding siblings, says Alison, if my sister tells me to do something, my first reaction is simply not to do it,

regardless of what it is. That's not my sister, Alison, by the way, who's emailed, it's a different one. I'm not so sure. She doesn't live in marble. Actually, I think that just might be coded just to put you off. Well, let's hear it, though.

That's one of those community cinemas, and I just think that's a great idea. And also, those prices, I mean, £5.50 at the stalls. Absolutely amazing. The last cinema outing, we had tipped at 25 quid each. Oh yeah, I can imagine. Yes, it was about that one.

I went to see Disclosure Day, yes. I mean, it's just too much that. Well, it is, isn't it? Which is why I don't go as often as I used to. Celia would like us to encourage our fantastic World Cup diarist Les Snowden to carry on with his mission to find the food of every

nation during the World Cup. Do you want to explain a bit who Les is and why people should tune into the show? to hear him. Yes, Les Snowden is journeying around the World Cup. He is a former very senior sports journalist for a number of... Sports editor. Sports editor for a number of tabloids.

And he's... I'm going to say he's probably about my age. He's a Scottish chap. So he's... But he's extremely funny. He's very, very dry humour. And he's been looking at all aspects of the Men's World Cup for us, rather than just focusing on who's got a groin strain

and why England were rubbish last night. He talks about the whole... the whole life around the tournament. And he's been visiting lots of different locations in Mexico, in Canada and in the States. And it's really, really good radio. It's just fantastic radio. So he was looking for the Uzbekistan dish that he could eat.

And Celia is amongst quite a few people who told him he had to go in search of plov, which is the national dish. It's a sweet pilaf rice with raisins and chickpeas with lamb stew and root vegetables. It's made in a massive dish like paella. and only cooked by men. Despite that, it's very yummy.

I hope does enjoy it when he finally finds a good Uzbek restaurant. And you've sent some pictures. It does indeed look fantastic. I don't like a raisin, though, in a savory dish. Oh, gosh. Well, you do get some Indian curries that... I don't like it. No, I don't like it.

I'm sort of with you. I remember, as a student in Birmingham, it's really when I first discovered curry, because I really have it in Liverpool at the time. A vesta curry was about as good as it got as anyone else remember those. But there was a restaurant we all went to called the Dilshad. which I think it might even still be going in some form and they used to do all those curries with sultanas

and then also sometimes an egg I'm not sure about egg either in a curry if I'm honest you know sort of Oh I don't mind a curried egg at all I don't want a curried egg I don't want But half a hard-boiled egg just plonked on top of I don't know I'm not sure No okay

But I mean I was all I'll say about my university experience is that I was heavier at university than I am now I think I quite enjoyed it Well, that's good. That's very good. The top part of Celia's email as well is a fantastic recommendation that I'd never heard of. So when we were talking about my attempts to sell the house, it's still available. It looks beautiful this week. Absolutely beautiful. In the morning sunlight. However, it makes me think of that great film The Chain with Leo McCann and Nigel Hawthorne,

which shows a series of house moves which all depend on each other. Oh, that's a good idea. It's a great idea, isn't it? Yeah. Wow. Hawthorne's character takes every single item from the house, door handles, light bulbs, even the ashes from the fireplace to throw over his roses,

although I didn't note bath plugs. He's so cheap, though, that he uses dodgy removals men who end up making off with all his household possessions. So Celia's top tip is you get what you pay for with removals guys. And I think you really do, actually, is one of those things that, if at all possible, you shouldn't skimp on. No, I mean, do you know what, V, I've mentioned it before.

I'll tell you what else is a false economy. Cheap clothes pegs. Yes, I'd say cheap clothes pegs, cheap cellar tape. Cheap. Cheap seller tape, absolutely dreadful. It just, you can't break it off. No. It goes all stringy.

Oh, dear. You lose the end of it. Cheapot is the same. I know we shouldn't be using tinfoil. Sorry about that. But if you do use chin foil. Chinfoil, I've been using that for years. Tinfoil.

It's a bit of a no-no, but if you are going to go there, and I do go there. you're right it's it's Baker foil or bust basically don't skimple on that Claire wants to give a shout out to playgroups local playgroups

I took my child to a local church playgroup from the age of 18 months until reception I made some great friends there and I'm so grateful at the end of the session we used to have a sing song and after my son went to school

I stayed on at the playgroup as a volunteer and found myself leading the sing song the first one was a bit daunting but by my last session I could happily belt out the wheels on the bus all the actions as well, without a second thought. On a serious note, these groups run by dedicated volunteers

are incredibly valuable. When I used to take my child there, it was the highlight of my week, as it was a real chance to chat, rant and offload. Can I just say, I think it was me who was talking about, we were Monday, wasn't it? We were talking about playgroups, and we were talking reminiscing about the wheels on the bus.

Couldn't agree more, Claire. I used to take my youngsters to the Salvation Army playgroup twice a week, Mondays and Wednesdays. And I don't think we ever missed for precisely those reasons. I completely agree. Or was it Monday and Friday? My friend Emma would know because she came with me.

I know one of the occasions we had to sing a hymn, but I couldn't have cared less. We had one in our local church hall two run by Connie, who was just, you know what, she was a proper, proper lifesaver. You know, she just spotted women

who needed a bit of pulling out of themselves. You know, myself sometimes, I was definitely in that category. You know, the days when you haven't slept at all and you've dragged yourself out of the house, you're teetering on the brink of insanity, and actually singing a song that you can't stand but you know all the words to

is the best thing for you in the company of other people who aren't going to judge you, you know, for the fact that you're probably wearing your pants on your head and whatever. So yes, all hail to all of those people who do that. All of those conies who keep those things going. because they are, Claire's right, they are vital.

Yeah, and just to get political for a moment, the idea that Shawstart was something that could be closed down. Not a good idea. Not a good idea. No, not a good idea at all. I just want to mention another list. We've had a continent, it's like two-way family favourites this edition, because we've covered the world, haven't we?

We have. We've been to Marple, we've heard from Japan, and now we're going to go to Africa and Janie. I've just been listening to your podcast in Kenya while also watching the UK news. And I'm just feeling a bit exasperated by how people respond to hot weather. There seems to be a real misconception that wearing less clothing keeps you cooler. In reality, it is often the opposite.

This is sort of going back to what you were saying earlier about male attire in hotter climates. Loose fitting garments like caftans or light cotton shirts and trousers create a layer of air between the skin in the fabric. This allows the body to sweat or perspire, as my granny would say, more effectively. and that really does cool you down. Covering up properly also protects the skin from sun damage, which is just as important as staying cool. A wide-brimmed hat makes a huge difference and is something you rarely see in UK heat coverage. Interestingly, in hotter climates like Kenya and similarly in Australia, people often wear natural, breathable materials, including leather hats

in some cases because they can help to regulate temperature and protect the skin and head rather than simply exposing it. Gosh, I hadn't thought about leather hats, but they do wear them in Australia, don't they? You see them in the dramas. Yeah. Thank you for that, Janie. She's on a Rajwara farm in Kenya.

So interesting that you're living there and keeping abreast of UK news and feeling a little bit of exasperation at how badly we're dealing with the heat here. Well, I think we're cottoning on to what we need to do and how much note we need to take of it, aren't we? I mean, you know, we've got two days where the temperature might top out at 38, 39, even 40,

and there isn't a news bulletin that isn't being led with all of that. We've had any number of experts on talking about how ill-prepared we are. I mean, it does seem absolutely madness that people have been giving planning permission to build those plate glass window flat south-facing, seldom on the fact that they've got an amazing view. Just like, I mean, freezing in winter, death trap in summer. There's been a collective form of madness about not facing the future, isn't that?

Oh, just frying tonight, isn't it? It's just absolutely horrible. I did hear Stig and Kate on the Times Radio Breakfast Show talking about the difference between walking along a tree-lined street and then, and I had exactly that experience. In fact, while I was listening to them, I was walking along a tree-line street, then I turned onto a main road with no trees.

Temperature went up about 10 Celsius. Absolutely remarkable. We need more trees. Yes, be nice to our trees. I was just looking up, Slip Slop Slap, which is the iconic Australian sun safety slogan. Slip on sun protective clothing, slop on broad spectrum water resistant SPF 50

and slap on a broad brimmed hat. So that's what we need to remember, isn't it? I don't think on my journey to work today, I saw a single person wearing a hat, a sun hat, quite a lot of baseball caps in action, but not the wide-brimmed sun hat. So maybe that's something else we could add to our merchandising. There we are.

I think we will be trillionaires, but it's just going to take us a little bit of time. We've got to give Eve some of the money as well, I think we, as well? Yes, we probably should. Let's move quickly and seamlessly into the guest. Now, our next guest is going to pronounce her own name because I've made a complete carzy of it every single time I've tried to say it. I've been saying it since about quarter past 11 this morning. You really haven't.

Honestly, my name is never pronounced correctly both bits. Even my husband doesn't pronounce my name as well as you pronounced my Christian name. We're fine. Okay, it's Sabine. It's Sabine, very good. Yeah. And my surname is Durant. Durant.

It rhymes with current. Yes, that's what I'll produce, our valiant producer, Eve told me earlier, but for whatever reason, I keep calling you Durant, and I'm really sorry. I think it's because Sabine's is,

my mother was Belgian, and I think Durant sounds more Belgian. Okay, I think it's just because I'm useless. I'll be it, to be it, to be honest. Really grateful to you for coming in. Oh, it's a delight to be here. Sabine is a fantastic writer of really readable, psychological thriller.

what have you written in the past? Sun Damage. That's being about to be televised, being filmed now. Well, we hope. Fingers crossed always. Hope springs eternal. Okay, and then lie with me. That was yours as well. Yes, that was a bestseller. Okay, and you are former features editor at the Guardian, former literary editor at the Sunday Times. Deputy? Deputy. I know these things. I'm in the building. I better be truthful about that. Okay. I think I'm maybe...

I'll tell you what, ladies, once this is perfectly rehearsed, it'll sound great. When it goes out, it'll be great. Well, perfect. It's really, really slick. Former deputy literary editor at the Sunnithms. Doesn't sound so good. I'm not sure I'd rather be a little bit of careful as you are in the building. Now actually, you do seem to have a bit of a thing

about hot weather. Can you just explain what the link is between your books, which have been incredibly successful, and the weather? Well, heat is a gift for a psychological thriller writer. We all know that crime rates saw during hot weather. My niece is a police officer in Essex and was dreading today.

football plus heat wave. Actually, that's serious, isn't it? I haven't really thought about that. She works in domestic crime as well. Oh, dear, right. And what you do is a psychological thriller, writer is you put your characters under stress and nothing is more stressful, really,

than being incredibly hot. Physically, you're stressed, which means that the emotional stuff comes more easily, so it's a gift for a writer. Also, I like to set them in hot countries, which is also important. A thriller written by me in London

doesn't quite work the same way because I like to take my characters. I have written the not hot ones. I've written wet ones. Taking your characters out of their in a normal universe, throwing them into a holiday. Holidays are usually trapped.

The runs I write about are traps. Like all best sitcoms. The best sitcoms from porridge to only fools and horses are traps. The best reality TV, they're traps. You mean everybody's in a confined space? They're in a confined space. You can't escape. You've been taken away from all the things that make you who you are.

Your routine, your dogs, your house, your job, and you're thrown into this world where really you're just there to enjoy yourself. And someone like me, that's often quite hard. So being, can I just warn you, Jane is about to go on her holiday. She's just about to join some friends. Are you going to a villa holiday? In a shadow. Or a shadow holiday? I mean, good luck.

No. You've really set me up for it now. I can't wait. I mean, you know, there are loads of once for holidays, and I'm about to go on holiday too, with friends to a villa in Italy. And I'm not going to. I think they're my friends.

I don't know. I mean, I often have an outsider in these groups, who isn't you. It's somebody else who wants to be part of the group, wants to really feel that they're fitting in. And they're the sort of writers, you know, representative. They're my representative in this world. All right.

Well, let's talk about your current book. Yes. Dead Heat. Yes. This one is set in the Peloponnese in Greece. Now, why is it set there? It's set in the Marni, which is the middle finger of the Peloponnese. It's the southernmost point of mainland Europe.

And I love writing about Greece because I love Greece. It's just a gift, the colours, you know, everything about Greece is wonderful. But the Marni is quite specific. I don't know if you've read that Patrick Leferma book, Marnie. I hadn't heard of it. So tell me about, I don't really know much about Patrick, to be honest with you. Or Patti, yes, they call it. It's set.

He was a travel writer, but he wrote a lot about Greece, and he traveled there in the 50s. And that point, because the Marni is very, very harsh geographically, it's very hot. And the people who live there are supposed to be descended from the Spartans, who were very bloodthirsty lot and very famous for their feuds. And when he was travelling down there, he was warned, you know, be careful, don't go too far south. They'll take the coat off your back, they'll skin you alive. that was only in 1950. So kind of the... You're not going there, are you?

Not on this. They have a lot of castles there too. Anyway, I thought... So it has this great history of feuds and the Spartans were said never to forgive a grudge and it fitted in very nicely with my plot. I really liked the thought,

I haven't said anything about the plot, but I will. Oh, don't worry, I've got a load of questions about the plot. I really liked the thought of this sort of very luxe, expensive holiday destination, which the coast is now, with this history of bloodthirsty, warring families. And I thought that would be quite a nice way of mirroring the story of the book.

I sense that Fee has another question. Do you want to put me off my holiday? Well, no, I was just wondering whether when you go on your holiday, you can actually settle into somebody else's thriller, or are you constantly on the lookout for stuff that will feed yours? It's hard, I think. I am constantly looking for things, and I have to be very careful not to. But that's all writing. It's like that. I did once steal something from a writer

and I feel sick about it ever since. It was just a verb. It was a brilliant writer, Harriet Lane, and one of her early books, she talked about bushes thrashing. And I had a bush in one of my books that thrashed. I've tried to think of a word for it, and I feel guilty ever since.

Yeah, I was about to say so. It's amazing what haunts you, isn't it? That kind of thing. I'm sure Harry is fine about it. I did tell her once, so I feel okay. Okay, now you've told us. We're absolutely fine. I also once stole some sweets in Woolworth when I was little and...

Yeah, stop nurse. Come on. Things are difficult enough. The man came up and told me that if I did it one more time, I was only about six, that he would... I didn't quite hear. He said, I'd either call the police or your mother and I don't know which was worse. And look what happened to Woolworth and that's on you. That one gobstopper.

That's what did it. Now, what's interesting about Dirty Heat is the central character is a chap called Matt Grimshaw. Now, Matt's a little bit washed up, isn't he? So tell us about him. Yes, he's a journalist. He's down on his luck. He's lost his job somewhere lovely like this. His girlfriend's left him.

And he's been invited on holiday by his much more successful friend, friends, because he's also friends with the wife and in love with the wife. And the man who is Adam was actually his intern when he was working on a newspaper. but Adam has everything that Matt doesn't. Matt is, you know, hardworking and a little bit dull. And his friend Adam is flamboyant and never made the tea or the coffee or the voter copying, but charmed the bosses and has now made a very successful career for himself. Well, we all know that there's almost nothing as bad as someone you once helped a long life's highway,

shooting right fast. Exactly, treading on your head as they go. So anyway, he's invited to this glorious house. It's owned by Adam's wife. It's been in the family for generations on the Marni, and he thinks he's going to have the summer of the lifetime. He's going to write this screenplay that's evaded him. But when he arrives, he immediately realizes things are not quite, as they seem.

A tech billionaire has built a carbuncle, just overlooking this glorious house where his friends live. There's a missing man. He's gone walking in the mountains and has got lost. And Matt himself treads on a sea urchin and gets an infected foot. So he's sort of limping. Yes. I liked him right from the start.

when he refers to his own acid reflux. I thought, well, we've all been there. And it's no joke at all. No, it's no joke at all. So you've picked a lot of, shall we say, he's a man with a couple of issues. He's got issues, yeah, he really has. He's also a little bit unsure about heterosexuality, how to say?

Well, yes, because he's not just in love with Celia. No, he's in love with both of them. And part of the drama of the story, of course, there is a big story going on. At the beginning, you know that somebody is dead and somebody else has been found guilty of his murder. You don't know who is dead or has been accused. But I can't remember what I was going to say. Within that, his sexuality.

His sexuality. You're also aware that his attitude towards his friends is that they are more important to him than he is to them, which I think is a really brilliant kind of psychological issue. issue. I mean he really clings to any suggestion of affection from either of them. Yes, he's aware of every touch. Yeah, well, no, he really is. But the whole jealousy thing. It never leaves you, does it? It doesn't actually matter how old you are.

I think you always feel it. Yes, I think maybe. And I, you know, but he, I've written from the perspective of a man in this book and I think men feel it even worse, I think. I think they take it. Why do you think that? Oh gosh, now I'm not quite sure. Are they less, I mean, do you feel jealous? Do you really feel jealous? Do you know, I'm not actually, I'm not particularly jealous person. I don't think I am either, so I suppose that's...

I could all sorts of other faults. I thought Fee would fill the gap there. She should be keeping very quiet. That's true. Can I just bring in listener Will who says Patrick Lee Furmore was also in the SOE. That's the special operations executive, I think, in Crete, on Crete during World War II. He really loved harsh environments, although he did accidentally shoot dead a partisan colleague in the mountains.

Well, that was unfortunate. He was part of the group that kidnapped a German general, a story that later had turned into a famous film called Ill Met by Moonlight. Starring Dirk Bogard, your welcome back to the football, says Will. Didn't he also write many letters to somebody incredibly famous? I think either Princess Margaret or somebody within the raw family.

He was very well connected, yes. He was quite posh, I think. And also he then bought a house in the Marni and sort of was one of the kind of people who I'm rather fascinated by those English people who take over parts of the world and think that they own it. I think sometimes those people overrate how much the locals like them. Yeah, I think that's very true. Did you find any evidence of genuine affection between the real locals in Greece?

I didn't actually go to the mind. What? No. I went in my 20s and I was going to go back, but the flights got really expensive and I never did. I mean, most of my books are basically researched using Street View. It's a very good way of research. I mean, I've literally traveled from Paris to Porcarol in this, my next novel, using Streetview.

Where is Polkoyol is an island of the south of France. It's where my next novel is set. Okay, you might just have snuck a copy of that into our sweaty hands this afternoon. I'll look forward to it. So that's a good tip for writers. You can do it from Street View. Yeah, yeah.

Little roads are slightly harder. Those little kind of, you think, oh, I think I might go up that road and then you go wrong. Also, when I was going through a very long motorway, I suddenly realised I turned round by mistake so I was going all the way back to Paris that was slightly annoying

I didn't realise that you could do a whole motorway on street view actually on and on the weather changes weirdly sometimes starts off spring and then you're suddenly in winter it's really odd yeah no I recommend it maybe not but sorry I mean this is off a tangent here

but why would anybody want to click on street view of a motorway well that's a very good question has anybody out there ever clicked on street view someone of the M-602. Just let us know why. I wouldn't go for the M-62. Now, the M-57. It's a controversial most way.

That's where I've gone for it, Jane. Completely different. I know you've worked in this building as a deputy literary editor. Yes, actually I wasn't in this building. Okay, well, don't get too specific. Sorry, sorry. But I just want, I mean, we're on quite good terms

with the literary people, aren't we here at times? We love them. We like to think so. We're probably a bit like English people by houses in Greece. We like to think we're on good. on terms with them. Do all people who work in books with books, just want to write books, really? No, I don't think that's true. I think people who work in books are often incredibly good critics and might want to work in publishing. They probably earn much more than they would if they

were in publishing. So I don't know. I didn't really want to work in books. I wanted to work in features, which I then went on to do and work that. You spent a long time writing, the kind of interview of the week for The Guardian. Is that right? I did. And that was brilliant training for being a novelist because I, well, being a journalist will stop, although it makes me very good at hitting deadlines. I think there was Ian Hisslott once said, no review ever said this book was delivered

on time. But I'm very good at delivering on time. And also, it's very, you know, the weekly interview particularly made me very good at being very concise, working out how people reveal character in tiny gestures. because I'd go off to interview somebody. I'd have 45 minutes and I'd want to, you know, skewer them on the page. Give us an example of that, to the kind of the tiny gesture. I can't actually remember who it was,

but somebody who had a very red thumb. And I was fascinated by this thumb. I wish I could remember who it was. And it turns out that they were a big gamer, that that was just a little interesting detail. Or going to somebody's Lou, downstairs Lou, and they've been very modest, and Lou is plastered with cartoons of themselves,

which is always a very... very interesting sort of vanity in different form. That's a very English. Yes. Or pictures on themselves in football teams at Oxford. Yes. But then Zoom changed all of that, don't you think? That people suddenly wanted to be seen

because we weren't leaving the house enough for our ego to be sated in front of all of their trophies and their personal accolades. And sometimes you just thought, God, if I panned out of this shot, there would literally be everything crowded together on one shelf behind.

you and then the whole of the rest of the house is empty. So we're not that modest. Because you always know that somebody's going to need to use your loo. If you were properly modest, you know, you'll be hiding things all over the place. Exactly. I do think you're right about the old you need team photograph. They don't have to tell you that they went to Oxford. Although, in fairness, they do normally.

It's people shaking hands with a member of the role family that always does it for me. It's just like, oh my God, where do you get that photograph from? I've got a bit of a bug bear about graduation photographs as well, the whole family with a child getting a degree. I don't know if it's just a little thing. Oh, would you have touched a raw nerve? I'd rather like my photos. Oh, do you, is it on the mantelpiece?

My two little darlings are on the mantelpiece. Not with me. It's just on the Todd. Well, that's all right. That's sweet. Now, we haven't talked too much. We can't really talk too much about this book because I don't want people to know too much.

I know. Because I think the real pleasure is in not knowing. The real pleasure in so many psychological thrillers is working it out for yourself, as you're reading. Well, who to trust. And who to trust. Yeah, and frankly, I didn't trust any of this lot right from the start.

Good. And I was right not to. Yeah, you certainly were. So your next one, you've moved to a different country. Yes, the next one is a road trip, which I was thinking, oh, I've escaped my trap theory, but actually is two people in a car driving down south. So from London to Paris and then from Paris to this island, Porcarol, which is off the southern coast of France.

Okay, and do terrible things as you? Terrible things into you. It's about, one of them is a psychopath, you're not quite sure. Does anybody want to go on holiday with you? Oh, probably not. Will you? Well, I did have an offer from the friends I thought were my friends, but now you've made me really overthink what the next week has in store. I love a holiday. I love a holiday. Yeah. And does it disturb you that some people think of you as a so-called beach read? Yes, it does a bit because I think psychological thrillers are like Trojan horses.

You can write about the human condition, you can about relationships, you can write about a million different things. And, no, it's not just a... But, you know, great to read on the beach. People do lots of their reading on a beach, actually. So, in fact, it's a bit of a win. And so you should, but only in Factor 50 here in the UK at the moment. Sabine Durant, and trust me, dead heat is an excellent read.

But actually, so are others lie with me and sun damage. I mean, there couldn't be any better sun damage fee. God, this is all themed, isn't it? produced it's very tightly produced. Very, very thought through. Quick, let's go before anyone notices it's not. Quick, bye. Okay, we're Jane and Fiat Times.com. Radio. Jane Garvey is off on her holidays.

Eve and I will be manning the ship. That starts tomorrow and do keep us company and anything new that you want to pop between our ears and especially if it's youth-orientated. And that would be quite good. In the absence of me, you can go a bit... We can go to 10 years younger. Whoa, come on Eve.

Well, don't worry, I'll be back soon reminiscing about the war. Which one? Bye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale.

And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.