Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Taunton Vanilla

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

We're all about minimum effort, maximum impact round here. Jane and Fi chat Pepper Pig, the gynaecology of hens and hairdresser etiquette. Plus, campaigner and mother of two autistic children Lisa Lloyd, discusses her book 'Raising the SEN-Betweeners'. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Yes, always be generous. Right, now listen, we've got some of your day called a hard out. That means we've got to actually get a wiggle on, do the the podcast make sure we introduce the guests properly and vacate the premises all by 12 because someone really important is coming in me i'm coming back in to interview somebody else if anyone's wondering how i cope with this i don't really she's as happy as a pig in a poke. Pig in a poke. Pig in a poke. Right, welcome.

Can we first of all just acknowledge we've had lots of brilliant, brilliant emails, high quality emails over the last 24 hours. So thank you all very much for that. I just wanted to shout out to people all over the world. Sydney, we've had word from Sydney. Belinda's there. She says, you mentioned last week of the appropriate oils for ear cleaning made me chuckle. When my firstborn was a baby, the nurses suggested softening cradle cap with oil as part of the treatment. One of the mums in my mother's group, one

of the few juggling older kids as well as a baby, turned up one day with her baby sporting a lurid green hairdo. She decided to try the oil treatment but only had avocado oil to hand. It was really quite a look for the youngster and it didn't budge for quite some time. Do you know what, you've got to be so careful these days because you don't want to take your baby to your next baby class smelling of sesame oil. You don't want to accidentally go for the chilli oil. We've got too many oils to choose from. Oh, don't you want to put chilli oil on a... You don't want to put chilli oil on anything.

...on a Babi's Bonce. Oh, I love it. I put it in everything. Yeah, but you don't want it to go anywhere near a cut. You don't want to rub your eyes afterwards. All of those things. Can I just say that Diana from Winchester has... I think she's brought a touch of class, actually, to proceedings. Well, about time someone did. She also has brought a touch of class actually to proceedings. Well about time someone did. She also has brought a correction as well. Slip of the finger says Diana. There are lots of Crown Courts and Winchester is one.

It's also the second criminal court to the Old Bailey. Regarding Fee visiting Liverpool and seeing women in curlers, I've only been there once and was taken for a prostitute. Sorry, that sentence again. I've only been there once and was taken for a prostitute. Sorry, that sentence again? I've only been there once and was taken for a prostitute. Where? Liverpool. Oh, I see. Okay, you're right. This has happened three times and I don't even wear black pleather shorts. I was on assignment with a photographer and arranged to meet him for a drink before dinner in the cellar bar at the Adelphi. Now, I think you stay at the Adelphi. No, I don't stay at the Adelphi. No, you're't stay at the Adelphi. No, but...

Well, you stay at the Titanic, don't you? Look, please don't give away my... A suite at the Titanic, kids. Well, luckier than the poor sods who had a suite on the Titanic. I think it is such an odd thing to name a hotel the Titanic. I mean, I'm sort of... It's a bit spooky, Jane, it's not very nice. It's a... Well, there's also...

Forgive me, I should know this. The Titanic Museum is in Belfast, isn't it? Well, it's where Rishi Sunak kind of relaunched his presidential campaign or whatever. Yeah. I know there's a reason why they've called it that, but I'm... Listen, I don't disagree with you. I think it's... As the great-grandchild of a man who died on the Louisitania.

Right, let's carry on. I have a lot of genuine sympathy because these things did affect real people. Okay, let's get back to Diana. This has happened three times and I don't even wear black pleather shorts. I was on assignment with a photographer and arranged to meet him for a drink for dinner in the cellar bar at the Adelphi where we were staying. I went up to him and was rudely pushed... Was this recently? I don't know.

I went up to him and was... I'm gonna get to the end of this Diana if it kills me. I went up to him and was rudely pushed aside by a young woman who told me that this was her territory. It happened a second time in London when I'd settled a group of magazine competition winners for their evening as string fellows and was walking to the tube. I really need to know what Diana does for a living. A very good-looking man pulled up in his car and asked me how much I spent the rest of the night wondering how much he might have paid me. Does this happen to other women? Cheers, which is not a very Winchester sign off. Diana.

So I just don't think there's any answer we could give to that without really being offensive. It's incriminatingating ourselves and the entire sisterhood. I genuinely don't know what to say. I really want to know when that was because the Adelphi, it's a vast and once was an incredibly, I think, glorious and well very attracted all the best people the Adelphi when you could argue that Liverpool had been the second city of the Empire and all the rest of it and if you were going off on one of those cruise liners from from the port you would stay at the Adelphi before I gather. It is, how can I say this, it is no

longer quite like that, that rooms are still available. By the hour. Well I think if you look on that well-known review site, people have a lot to say about the Adelphi. But in fairness, pricey it is not. But it's interesting what marks out a woman as looking like she might be making herself available. So I think we just need to know a little bit more from Diana and from other listeners if it's ever happened to you. Just think it sounds horribly judgmental, doesn't it? So I don't just need to know a little bit more from Diana and from other listeners if it's ever happened to you Just think it sounds horribly judgmental doesn't it? So I don't I genuinely can't think of the right thing to say you No, I don't think there is a right thing to say. Do you know I think also whenever

Whenever you know, the conversation is a is about sex workers You know the conversation that we really should also be having is what does a man look like who? cruises a hotel bar, you know, with money in his wallet ready to go. That's just not a conversation that we have enough. And I suppose the answer to that question might be just look like any man. So I don't know. You know, it was a long running and I know I don't think it's been solved, one of those ding-dongs that you could have on Woman's Hour about whether it was liberating to be a sex worker or whether it was actually just a decision made

only by women who were truly absolutely desperate and could see no alternative. And I had many a debate on that and I still don't know what the right answer is. But presumably it's one of those things to which there is no answer. You can be... there are both things happening in the world, aren't there? Yes, I think you're probably right. I just... honestly, it's something I've given... I've genuinely given thought to over the years and I wish I had something original to say. I have to say I did meet some sex workers who I really did feel,

I don't think I've ever felt sympathy like it to be honest. It was quite clearly something that they had been driven to do and I remember one woman I met at a women's centre in Birmingham, which is an amazing place actually, who just said to me that she had been doing it, I can't think of a better phrase, since she was 11. And she said to me, the thing is, and I said, well 11, I mean I just couldn't, she said, yeah but you know what men are like. And I remember looking at her thinking, you know what, I don't think I do actually. I genuinely don't think I know from your perspective how some of them can be. But we need to think about that a bit more. So sorry that's got terribly serious but I've never forgotten that encounter with

that woman and I hope she's alright. But I think with the proliferation of places like OnlyFans I think that there is definitely a perspective that isn't talked about enough which is much more about people who feel content doing what they're doing. I think my huge fear about that is because you don't see the punter. The exploitation is even more covert and I don't know whether that means that you maybe, covert and I don't know whether that means that you maybe, am I trying to say that you don't see quite how much it might be changing a person as you might see if you were in the room with your client.

Because it's definitely, it's such a hugely successful phenomenon. There are obviously just an awful lot of men and women who are subscribing to these services, paying for these services, maybe without everybody in their household knowing that they're doing that. And just thinking, you know, I'll pop out for lunch and just have a quick check in on that. So maybe you can feel more powerful than maybe you are. I don't know because I'm not part of that fraternity. Well this is, you know, it's a very genuinely an important debate and a conversation

we ought to have had actually. I'm surprised we haven't had it. So do chip in on this because I don't think we really know what, well I just, neither of us want to cause offence, but it's a topic that's incredibly interesting and well, I mean, it's always been there and I suspect it will never go away. But also there's only one thing that really shoves you prejudice and that's having a conversation with someone who makes you realise you have it. So, you know, feel free if you would like to make us eat our entire cheese board of judgement with the accompanying pickle of prejudice. Then you can send us an email, Janenandphi at times.radio. Shout out to Anne who's listening in South Africa she says I love your program I think you're a perfect pair and I listen to every single episode now interestingly Anne is 80 and she's five foot one. I think she was bigger once. Well I don't know because it does make me

slightly concerned that you and I are going to be invisible pretty much to the naked eye if any shrinkage occurs. I'm definitely going to be under five foot if I'm lucky enough to become an octogenarian. Indeed. Well, we both will. Anyway, Anne, I'm glad that you're out there. At 80 is a good age and I hope you're enjoying yourself. She says, your podcast is actually very refreshing. I'm finding these times depressing. Yes. Well, indeed. It's never quiet, is it? That's the other thing. It's not. No, I've delved into some new people on my Instagram feed and some new podcasts to listen to as well. And I've saved up the one hour, 27 minutes of Gavin Newsom's new podcast. It's his first episode. It's so long.

Gavin, you spoil us. Remind us he is... The governor of California. Oh right. And he's launched himself into the podcast world which is just incredibly powerful now isn't it? Did you say the podcast world? Yeah. Is it? I had no idea. He would have funked it. Rhoda says dear Jane and Phee Isabella Rossellini will be able to explain the gynecology of, if I said that right, gynecology? Yeah, of the hen as she went back into education to study animals after L'Oreal dropped her because she was too old. Fascinating woman to interview, kind regards. Did not know that. Didn't know that either. Let's get her on. She's so brilliant in Conclay. She is.

No, she is. She is absolutely brilliant, but it's quite weird, isn't it? Because she's cited as being an absolute star of Conclay. She's not on screen very much. No, but when she is, she packs a punch. She does. It was like, do you remember when Dame Judy, wonderful, won an Oscar for, is it Shakespeare in Love?

Oh, and she was... She was on screen for about a minute and a half. She literally opened a door and said hello and walked out. Yep, but she still acted everybody else off the screen. Yeah. So that's the way to do it. That's how I'd like to win. Minimum effort, maximum impact. That's what you're after in life. Now we must just do a quick shout out to Philly who may have had her third baby by the time this comes out. She says I'm having a baby tomorrow lunchtime well she wrote yesterday so it's today could be happening around now we're thinking of you. It's my third daughter and I'm thrilled to be having a third child but she is a little bit worried about those first few weeks and in

particular Fiona one of those classics and I don't mean that in any way dismissively, the whole breastfeeding thing. So, Fiona and I have said this before, we'll say it again, if you can breastfeed, wonderful, you go for it, but if you can't, if it's a struggle, if there are other kiddies in the mix, don't give yourself a hard time. Is that about it? Yeah, I think all of the evidence supports breastfeeding being an absolutely cracking thing for you and your baby, but I think the distress it causes women, you know, when a baby won't latch on, when you're too tired, if you get an infection, all of those kind of things,

you know, to be expected to battle through, just give yourself a little bit of a break. I mean, they just are, if you went into our office and asked people hands up who was breastfed and who wasn't, I think there would be quite, there may well be an equal distribution of hands and I genuinely, I'm not sure that you'll be able to automatically tell. No, I think if Jocasta or Julian, whoever they might be, is doing brilliantly well at university or in their careers you won't know or care whether they were breastfed for 10 minutes, for 3 months, for 5 years. It doesn't matter, does it? Do you really think? I mean it is a brilliant thing to be able to do absolutely if you can.

If you can, yeah. But honestly. And you know the medical evidence is there about protecting your child, you know, during breastfeeding, so I'm not doubting that for a minute, but just really there are other things that you'll be able to do further down the line as well. Yeah. So please don't get yourself into a torture about it. But Philly, lots of love from us both, congratulations, how wonderful. I do like her PS. She says, I thought you might enjoy the tradition I have come up with for my daughter's middle names. In my 20s I was traveling with a group of new friends and there was one girl I got chatting to who told me her brother was nine when she was born and her parents worried

that she wouldn't accept him, or he wouldn't accept her sorry, as he'd been an only for such a long time, so they told her he could choose her middle names. Well I was wondering what a nine year old boy would choose for a girl's name, but all my hopes were surpassed when she showed me her passport which read Amelia Princess Leia Jenkins. I resolved right there to let my children choose the next one's middle names. So my eldest daughter's middle name was chosen by us. She was named after our beloved dog Wilfred. I feel that Fee would approve of this.

The eldest was four when my second daughter was born and she went for Rainbow Tinkerbell and the final daughter got slightly screwed over as her older sister is only two still and a big fan of Peppa Pig. So her middle name is going to be Peppa. Brilliant, brilliant. I think that's lovely actually. Really, really good. Well honestly congratulations Billy and I hope everything goes very well for you. Yes, I second that emotion. Warmest regards come in from Melanie and Somerset, who says I know off their appeals to me, as I'm probably the target listener, so therefore relate to most of the views and situations discussed. But the conversations about leaving the hairdressers in foils made me, yes, out loud in agreement.

My hairdresser is two seconds away from Boots the chemist, and I would love to spend a happy half an hour crayoning lipsticks on the back of my hand and leisurely comparing and contrasting potions and lotions. I'm not a shy retiring sort, but still don't have the nerve to do it, but may be working up to it because I hate the limbo of waiting. Unlike London, one cannot wander around Taunton wearing absolutely anything without the perfectly pleasant vanilla population raising an eyebrow. So this may be challenging. Well, can we call this podcast Taunton Vanilla? So I'm sure that there are areas of Taunton that aren't vanilla. Well, maybe you need to go there. You must have been there.

I've been there. Yes, I worked in Taunton for three months. Somerset Sound. Somerset Sound. Those were the days. I think you should just start a trend. I think it might be one of those little tiny things that we could give to the world, Jane. Listeners to the Off Air podcast can be recognised because they've got sturdy tote bags

and they're very happy to go to events on their own and they leave the hairdresser in foils. I think this could be liberating to our female army. The people, the women of Liverpool, were liberated in this area many, many years ago, which is why they do wander around with their curlers in, get trains with their curlers in, but it does seem as though Taunton needs our help so so come on come on Taunton just look past it and next time I go and have my roots done I am just going to say do my roots and I'm just gonna go after that if that's alright Susanna I am going to do it yeah I don't like the limbo described there I rather like I think if we've got a book on the go

or it doesn't bother me at all. Sometimes I think it's simply because my feet don't touch the floor. I find it incredibly uncomfortable to sit in a chair for two hours with my legs dangling. I've said before, I'm not Nicholas Whitchell. Nicholas Whitchell. Was it Nicholas? Nicholas Whitchell was reading the news, wasn't he, when those lesbians came in and protested? That was one of the funniest I happened to be watching. And honestly, I've never forgotten that.

I can't remember what they were, was it Section 28? In which case, more power to them. Yeah. What has it been? I don't know, but there was somebody, I think he was reading the news with Sue Lawley, was it? And they were doing a double header. I mean, the expense the BBC used to throw at news bulletins in those days took two people to read the same auto-queue. Be very careful.

We do a live show together. And yeah, and they came in anyway. It was very, very funny. They're funny. I wonder where those lesbians are now. Well, I hope they've been venerated somewhere. There must be a special hall of fame. With a blue plaque.

Yeah. Plac? Plac. It was Section 28. It was Section 28. Oh, Eve, you're very good. Thank you. You've got it hot off the press.

Well done to them. Now here's a very niche issue, but I think it needs an airing, Vy. Our contributor has a wonderful, a wonderful hairdresser who comes to her house. Oh, I love this. This is real, a dotty dilemma this is. My situation is that my situation, I love this, my situation is that my hairdresser comes to my house. She's fabulously skilled and does a great job.

There's a butt coming. She has alarming and quite right-wing views on a lot of topics. Now, I wrestle with this as I can't sit and nod. It's like being back in the debating team of my youth. It's doable for a cut, but come the colour, it's absolutely bumming exhausting. I can't just let her rant, but I need to keep her as a hairdresser. This is just, I love this because it's so genuine. This is real life, isn't it? This is one of these things we all have to, I think there's probably, I bet everyone listening

has one of these sorts of incidents in their life where, let's just be honest, someone does a wonderful practical job, but... They're also a tiller of the hunt. And you wouldn't have them round for a light supper. So you could... What do you suggest, P? I think you could put, you could, if she's coming to your house, couldn't you put something on to distract both of you?

What's the new Channel 4 series? Go back to where you came from, which is six people with rather extreme views about immigration. One way or the other, yeah. Who have been traversing the same paths that immigrants to this country are taking. And I think it's had some remarkable, you know, it's shown people that their mindset might need a little bit of a challenge. So you could pop that on, but that's quite a blunt tool to approach it with. You could have some, maybe have some appropriate reading matter scattered around.

Be listening to Times Radio to make it clear that you're keeping up with the news and like to hear a range of opinion. How about that? Yeah, that's a very good one. Well done, Mandy. Thank you. Your message, Mandy, is very much in control. But it's tricky, Anonymous. I wonder if the Hive mind has any better ideas. I don't know, but I would be most interested. But also we have just become incredibly intolerant of people who have different views to ours. Yeah, I'm with you there, but then when they become plain offensive... No, but I was going to say, but because we can find our echo chambers and settle very nicely into those, I sometimes think we've lost the ability or the desire to really confront people.

You know, because somebody will say something you think that's incredibly offensive, but I've got my people to go back to, so in the moment I'm not going to say anything. I wonder if it was always that way. I think yes you're right we are, I'm only just getting to grips with the fact that my Instagram feed, I asked a question about this the other day to somebody here, why was I being sent so much content that just reinforced my own beliefs even though I've tried to follow some of Donald Trump's cabinet members for example, but I just wasn't seeing their

posts on Instagram. They weren't very high up in my feed, I just wasn't seeing them and that apparently was because I hadn't engaged. You hadn't liked them. Yeah, but that's hopeless as well isn't it? I followed them so I could get another point of view. You don't want to like them. No, because I won't like them. But it's difficult. I mean, if someone comes around, does a brilliant job unblocking your sink, but then by way of conversation tells you the moon landings were faked, what do you do?

Well, I don't know. You don't block the sink up again, do you? I've actually released from my occasional employment two people whose views I found really offensive and it was quite a difficult thing in the moment to do especially because they were burly blokes in my house but they were being racist and so I just said you can't you can't come back here don't want to see you again and but it made me feel incredibly vulnerable yeah well I think that's

that's really that's a significant and rather sad reflection. Well it was on the day that Nelson Mandela died. Oh, for God's sake. Yeah, and so you know, it just, I just thought, actually no. You know, there's a bloke who spent all of this time in jail fighting for the right, and I just have to say to this burly large workman, what you said is just horrible and I don't agree with it and I'm not going to pay for something you've done in my house so you have to go. But he was so surprised that it happened. I still see him out and about and I cross the road

because I'm scared now. But it was a moment of bravery. Well done, seriously, well done. Because too many of us, probably me included, would just have let it go and you shouldn't. But it's hard to challenge it. Lots of occasions when I have let things go. I'm not brave all the time, Jane, as you know. Let's just end, before we get to the guest, with somebody in Leeds, that's all I'm going to say, who managed to find a mobile ear syringe. I just love her reflection on

this. I found an ear person online, this is for her son, who did home visits on children. It was 80 quid to allow for travel costs. It was very odd seeing a man with a really snazzy car and very posh shoes arrive with his ear hoover. It took minutes, hoovered out all the nasty stuff, job done, and relief from me that I hadn't been handing over my son to an ear cowboy. I did do as much research as you can online about this chap, reviews and trust pilot, but nevertheless I was relieved, and then also considered a potential career change. No wonder the bloke's shoes were so nice, At 80 quid for two minutes of suction. He was in and out in a matter of minutes.

She almost said that with her straight face. I love the people who email this blog. So that is quite a lot of money for a very short amount of time. Do you think that you could put that up on a street WhatsApp and come around and do the whole street? That's a fortune. A hard out has arrived for you so much as I'd love to continue this hard-hitting conversation. We have to stop. I tell you what, we'll save the conversation of Jane's DIY vasectomy clinic. Roaming a street near you for next time. to me clinic roaming a street near you. Time's running out to take advantage of Wealthsimple's best match offer yet. With our big winter bundle, you'll get a 2% match on qualified RRSP transfers and a 1% match on other eligible accounts.

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For a limited time, visit betterhelp.com slash randompod for one free week of online therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan you're not with Fizz switch today conditions apply details at fizz.ca

Lisa Lloyd is here welcome to the program Lisa. Hello thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure you are the author of raising the S S.E.N. Between Us. That's the correct way to say it, isn't it? Yep, or Raising the S.E.N. Between Us, however you wish to say it. Well, I like to be correct, this is just one of my things. Now, you are known on social media as A.S.D. with a G and T. You're the co-founder of an organization called S.E.N.D. Reform England, and you are a content creator. Now for some of our listeners that will be a baffler so what is what is a content creator? Basically it's somebody that is on social media and I do lots of videos I do some funny ones some serious ones

and but basically I'm just trying to raise awareness of autism because I have two autistic children, now diagnosed myself as well very recently, so yeah it's just to get people to understand a little bit more about autism. Now you have a son called Finn who is 11 and your daughter Poppy is 8. Now something I took from the initial stages of this book which is super helpful I've got to say is that if you've met, you say if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person.

Yeah. Do not assume that there are any similarities. Are your children alike? Oh, complete opposites. You've got my son who is, we call him the fun police, because he's very strict on rules, you know, he will tell off teenagers for dropping litter, he will tell off children for touching statues that they shouldn't touch and things like that, and he's very organised, very strict. And then you've got Poppy, who is absolute chaos, She feels that the rules were made to be broken. She

doesn't like following rules. She's very loud and Finn likes the quiet. So completely different children, both obviously brought up exactly the same. So it's, you know, there's sort of proof within themselves that, you know, that it's a spectrum and they're so different. Yeah and you also tackle, a lot of people do say it, I've probably said it myself, we're all on the spectrum, people do say it, why is that wrong? It's wrong. I think what people mean is everybody can have autistic traits. So, you know, a very common one of autism is that they tend to be quite,

can be quite antisocial sometimes. So you could say that somebody's shy, that could be an autistic trait. The difference is being autistic, you have to have a lot of those traits. So I always say to people, you know, one of the symptoms of being pregnant is headaches. Now I still get headaches but it doesn't mean that I'm pregnant. You know, you have to have a lot of those traits to be actually classified as autistic. Now you make it clear that it's not always a bundle of laughs bringing up two children with these challenging behaviours at times. Have

there been moments when you have felt what have I done to deserve this? In all honesty yes and definitely in the beginning when I didn't really understand what we were dealing with I spent a lot of time comparing, which is one of the worst things that you can do, is comparing to all the other children, wondering why mine is not enjoying anything, not joining in, looking at them falling behind at school and things compared to other children that are excelling,

and that's really, really difficult, you know, especially as a first-time mum, and you're feeling like you failed somehow and that you've done something wrong. And, you know, that's a really difficult thing to deal with. So, you know, it's one of the reasons that I wanted to write my book because obviously I felt so alone

in the beginning and that I had felt this tremendous guilt and constant worry that I had got it wrong somehow. Your TikToks and your socials generally are often very funny but they can hint at a bleakness if you know what I mean. Yes. A slightly despairing oh you know when you what is it, the packed lunch for an autistic child and you're just standing there holding up just one single slice of white bread. Yes. Yeah, you know, I try and find the humour in it sometimes because it can be quite doom and gloom.

You know, we're dealing with getting diagnosis, we're dealing with fighting for EHCPs in school and things. And you know, it can feel like a very lonely journey. So I tried to offer that comedy and also to sort of find other people that may not know a lot about autism and things. And you know, the comedy side sort of brings people in a little bit more to our world. Yeah well it really does do that. You mentioned EHCP, forgive me what does that stand for? EHCP, so that's an educational health care plan at school. When you got that what does it mean for your child? So an EHCP is so important. Basically Finn was failing at school. He was getting more and more behind

academically and he needed more support than a neurotypical child. So an EHCP is something that is funded through the local authorities and something you apply for through the school. And it means that he could get into a special needs school and it means that he gets the support and help that he needs at school. It's absolutely vital. But it took quite some time to get it. It did. It's very much a battle and it's a battle for a lot of parents now, unfortunately, because of the funding issues. Do the siblings get on with each other? Err...

I would say, you know, 10% of the time. 10%? OK, well look, yeah. So that in itself, that's another challenge then to throw into the mix. It is, it is. And you know, currently they share a room, which is not fantastic. We're in the process of moving at the moment, And currently they share a room, which is not fantastic. We're in the process of moving at the moment where they will have their own rooms finally, which would be lovely. But yes, they very much need their own space. And I hope this isn't an offensive question. Do they know they are on the autistic spectrum?

Yeah, they do. And they embrace it? Poppy doesn't understand very much. We do talk about it because obviously there's lots of doctors, appointments and things and I think it's good for them to sort of have some kind of understanding of what's going on. My son definitely understands it. He's at a fully autistic school, so all the pupils there are autistic, some of the teachers are. And, you know, they actually regularly talk about autism with the children and their struggles with it, the positives. So I think it's really good for them to understand

that themselves, especially in later life, getting jobs and things like that, it'd be important for them to know what barriers are going to be in their way. Now we have actually just talked earlier in the programme about the cuts that are coming to the benefits system and you say in this book that actually you've just found it almost impossible to get paid employment unless you did, I think you did the overnight shift at Tesco, didn't you? The late night until two in the morning shift at Tesco. But that meant that by the time you got home, presumably about three, you had two hours before Finn woke up at five. Exactly that.

And so that's the grim reality for an awful lot of people, parents in particular, in your position. It is. There's a real problem with childcare and things like that, especially when you have children with additional needs. We don't usually get offered breakfast clubs, after school clubs, because obviously you need more support, so you need more teachers there. So unfortunately we don't have these options and school holiday clubs we don't get offered them. So you know trying to find a job that is you know in between the school hours and one that you can take off for all the holidays and possibly all the hospital appointments you have to go to, it's near impossible. Well you have found a way through because you are now a content creator and this, and

you've also written this book, and life at least on that front has definitely improved for you. Yes, I mean this is the way that I found to be flexible. You know I needed a job that could work around the children, which is absolutely perfect for me and now I've become, you know, an author. But you know, that's very rare. It's very rare to actually, you know, make a living out of social media. It's very rare to become an author with Penguin. So this just isn't the norm for a lot of families out there. You mentioned that you'd had a diagnosis yourself. What has that meant to you?

Well it's changed a lot to be honest, a lot more than I thought. You know I've got the diagnosis at the age of 41 and I was very unsure about even going to get assessed because I thought I've come this far. But actually it's helped me understand myself so much more and sort of my limits. I've spent a lot of years struggling and I've struggled in jobs as well and it's been really interesting to look at that because, you know, when I went to the assessment and the assessor said to me, you've actually chosen a job where you're working from home, you're away from, you don't have to have any colleagues, you've actually chosen the perfect job for an autistic person, which you know I hadn't even thought

about but it's very true. But you've also you're making connections every time you do one of those little clips the videos for TikTok there must be so many other parents who are thinking oh thank god she's actually saying what I've been thinking. There are there there are so many out there and so many that feel isolated. You know, we don't tend to get invited to parties and things like that. And, you know, a lot of them can't take their children on days out, don't get to be the football mum and things like that. And it can be a very isolating world. And actually, you know, we found this sort of community online, which has helped so many

people and it's so supportive to have that with each other. One of the things I thought I knew about children with autism was that they didn't like change, they like the routines and you describe your holiday, you go to Benidorm, it's a bit of an experiment, it works out in the end but blimey Lisa the journey there, I just do not know how you got through that. Yeah I mean we so we chose Benidorm as the first one abroad because we thought that is probably the most sort of English foreign place. You know hopefully the food will be as safe as possible for the children and everything like that. But yes, it was very disruptive for them. The first day we thought, what on earth have we done?

We should have stayed at home. But gradually as the week got on, went on, it did get better, luckily. But you know, these are all the things that take time with our children. And you know these are all the things that take time with our children and you know we've waited 11 years since having my son to actually go abroad for the first time ever it's taken 11 years so it's all about patience. Will you be doing it again? Hopefully yes I think we will give it a go again We will probably change how we did some things but yes we would definitely take more of their side foods. Just to ask you, I know this is potentially quite complicated but how long had you thought there might be an issue with Finn before

somebody told you officially, if you like, that there was? All in all, it was six years. Really? He was referred at the age of two. I knew, to be honest, from a baby, he was not behaving how other babies were. He didn't smile back. He didn't like to be held. He had problems with feeding.

There were a lot of issues there from day one and he was referred at the age of two and he was actually diagnosed at the age of six. And then what happened? Not a lot. Yeah this is the bit in the book where I really felt for you because you were desperate for something to be said officially and then there was just, ugh. Yeah, I mean you're discharged straight away from the paediatricians, you've got your autism diagnosis and then that's it. You know, you're left to get on with it. So I went back

to the school and I was like, here we are with the autism diagnosis. Can you help now?" And that's when they said to me, well, actually, no, you need an education, a healthcare plan in order to get any support. And once again, your battle and your fight starts again. I got all over again. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you don't sugarcoat it, Lisa, but you really do put it out there.

And I think so many people are going to be helped by this book. I knew I was going to like you because you make a very funny joke. Your husband is, I should say, a very supportive bloke, Terry, isn't it? Yeah. But he has, after the children were born you couldn't stand the way he sneezed. Yes. Before that you hadn't really been that bothered by his sneezes but after the children it was just so loud. Exactly. I feel a sense of solidarity with you on that one. Yeah, it's just, you know, just even breathing to be honest sometimes is irritating with what he does but yeah, he's a very irritating guy I found since having the kids.

Can I just ask you, Lisa, are people kind to you when you're out and about with your family? Oh yes, yeah, out and about they're lovely, really lovely, but on the whole that is through, you know, in the beginning and everything like that with my social media page where I get people coming up to me. People that don't know us, people that don't know us, they can get irritated by some of the children stimming and... Which means? So basically you will get them doing pacing, rocking, tapping. It's usually when they're anxious and in loud environments and things like that. And obviously as the children are getting bigger, people seem to get less accepting.

People expect toddlers to spin in circles and things like that, you know, that sometimes they find it cute as a toddler doing it. As a giant, which I do have a giant 11-year-old who looks about 16, people don't find it so cute unfortunately and you know people can be quite horrified sometimes if there's a meltdown, you know your child's very distressed and it can be hard to ignore those stares, it can be hard you know I think a lot of people think it's the parenting sometimes. I think

they just, you know, need more discipline. But unfortunately, they haven't seen all the battles that have come before that. You know, when you've got to that point, you know, it's sometimes you have to pick your battles because you've been actually battling with them all morning. But people don't see that. Well, they should certainly think about it. Lisa, fantastic to have you with us, really appreciate you coming in and honestly I can't recommend this highly enough to somebody who perhaps is at the early stages of all this and they will I'm

sure take great comfort from your words of wisdom. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Lisa Lloyd, raising the S-E-N between us and on the socials it's A-S-D with a G and T. Quite a lot of underscores there but the technically minded will have no trouble with it. I've read it. I honestly think there's a lot of very sound practical information in here that really could help a lot of people so give it a whirl. We're back tomorrow. Looking forward to it already. Certainly are. Good luck with all of your files, good luck with all of your babies

and we will regroup in the same place at the same time. And Taunton, please prove to us you have a maverick streak somewhere. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Better Help Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now wherever you are to unclench your jaw. Relax your shoulders. Take a deep breath

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