Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Tax-dodging alpacas (with Nisha Katona)

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Welcome to your maritime podcast. Today, Jane and Fi discuss socks for Americans, fallen women with fallen arches and bumping into family members. Plus, Nisha Katona, founder of Mowgli Street Food restaurants, discusses her new cooking show 'Nisha Katona’s Home Kitchen’. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

that's been made by AI. Can you see what the problem is there? They've put too many toes on the foot. Oh, terrible. Absolutely terrible. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. On October 3rd, 1980, a bomb was detonated outside a synagogue on Copernic Street in Paris. Three decades later, French investigators finally identified a

suspect in the case, a Lebanese Canadian sociology professor living a quiet life on the outskirts of Ottawa, Canada. Is Hassan Diab guilty? Can you introduce yourself? Or is he a scapegoat? Hassan Diab. From Canada land introduce yourself? Or is he a scapegoat?

Hassan Diab. From Canada land, this is the Kopernik Affair. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Acast.com. Mongolia. Well with Wild Frontiers Travel you'll see more with those who know the way. Want to go off the beaten track and away from all the tourist crowds? You got it. From wine tastings in Georgia to epic journeys along the Silk Road, Wild Frontiers provide unforgettable experiences in some of the most incredible places on earth. What's more with everything taken care of by the experts you'll have the freedom to take it all in and the freedom to never stop seeking. So whether you want to travel solo or on one of their small group tours or with family

or friends on a private tailor-made trip, you can visit wildfrontierstravel.com. Welcome to Off Air and Caroline thank you so much for my doorstop. Caroline has sent me a wonderful stuffed object that is, frankly I could just look at it Caroline, but actually it is a Dora shaped doorstop and Caroline is the wonderful artist who specialises in pet portraits and it's just a really lovely thing to come into work to see. It is beautiful and Caroline I will be in touch I'm sorry because the trail went a little bit cold. Is that Dora on the front of the card that she sent as well? Well it could be. I'm very pretty. I'm gonna say that tabby cats do tend to look alike don't they? That's not offensive is it? It's

just an observation. They all look alike. I can't tell the difference. We're just on dangerous territory already, let's not do this. Laundry, larks and learning. Now this comes in from a correspondent named Barnes. Have you ever heard that as a first name before? Well Barnes is, to those of us who live in East West Kensington, Barnes is now a distant dream since Hammersmith Bridge was shot. Gosh. Very, very suddenly. Does it feel like an island that's been cast adrift? Yeah, absolutely. So Barnes is, you cross the Hammersmith Bridge, well you used to be able to, you can still do it on a Ford bike, and there lies Barnes, which is

only a tiny bit away geographically from East West Kensington, but feels like another planet. So Hammersmith Bridge is a long, long running saga, isn't it? Oh, it really is. It has really angered people, obviously, in that part of the world. Did anybody ever try and set up a kind of clever ferry across the... There was talk of that. There was a talk at one point of Uber doing it, but it didn't happen. Well Uber have got ships haven't they? That's not the right word.

They've got ships, Faye. Welcome to your maritime podcast, off air. They've got boats. It didn't happen. And that's the only word, when I hear the name Barnes, that's all I think of. Okay. I can't go there anymore. I think it's an intriguing name and I'd just love to hear a bit more about it actually. Is it a family name? Was it because you were conceived in Barnes?

Would you have been called Wandsworth if you'd been a little bit further down? I can't imagine that anyone in Barnes gets up to that sort of thing. Do you not think? It's quite a sophisticated... I tell you what, if you can't get across the river, your nights are long, Jane. Anyway, Barnes has sent us this fantastic email entitled Laundry, Larks and Learning. So, to the laundry. Being of the same vintage as Jane, I've been a 40 minute, one hour wash woman since I left home. I too have about 78 settings on my machine but only ever use the one, although a very occasional quick wash may have been utilised.

However, for the past eight months I've gone fully green on the laundry and other domestic fronts courtesy of Nancy Burtwhistle. Not come across Nancy Burtwhistle, gonna have to look her up. Specifically, my laundry practice has been revolutionised. I no longer buy washing powder or conditioner, instead use a combination of, wait for this folks, write it down, soda crystals, green bleach, also known as sodium percarbonate, and white vinegar with essential oils for the conditioner. Most of my washes are now 20 degrees for just over two hours. So sorry, the initial thing should have been 40 degrees on a one-hour wash. This is actually more economical because most of the money is spent on heating the water, not churning out the clothes. I was very skeptical when I embarked upon this journey, however there's

no going back for me. I hear you ask what about towels and bedding? What about towels and bedding? Thank you. It is recommended that this type of laundry should be washed between 40 and 60 degrees and sometimes I'll use the hotter setting as manufacturers recommend but I can assure you that none of us have contracted anything unpleasant from the new low temperature wash. So it's always good to hear of different ways of doing things and especially if they're slightly greener and cleaner because you know I'd say I really really love that smell that you can get if you put those funny little bubbles now in your washing machine. The laundry balls. Yeah well you know the little tiny little things.

You know, the freshener stuff that you put in afterwards. But I don't buy it anymore because it's just chemicals, isn't it? Oh, it's just chemicals. Yeah. Welcome to your chemistry podcast. Yes, but I know what you mean. They do freshen up the washing, but I'm not sure they're environmentally friendly. Not environmentally friendly at all. No. So that's quite a good tip and I might actually give that a go. And Barnes thinks that there's definitely room for a PhD in this. I completely agree with you too. But she does go on to say, just a very quick query, on the podcast last year, Fee said she didn't use paper towels, only tea towels. How do you manage, Fee, when you need to dry fish or meat, etc.? I read my

emails very early in the morning these days before I come into work and that just made me laugh out loud because I haven't needed to dry my fish or meat in a very long time, Barnes. It's not a euphemism. But I genuinely thought, gosh, what do I do if I need to pat meat dry? But I just don't. Am I doing something wrong in the kitchen? How often do you pat your meat or your fish dry? I don't think I really wash my meat. I don't know, I said, but it just gave me a couple of moments of just quite nice reverie this morning thinking thinking what do I do? Gosh I'm really being put on the spot here because I'm still living in my meat heaven

since the butter bean lovers left home. Are you getting a piece of steak out and washing it and then patting it dry? Well I've got a steak on the go for tonight, Fee. Will you need a paper towel for it? No I won't. So, OK, we're both still here, so we must be doing reasonably well, but we may have missed a crucial element of preparing meat or fish. Right. But also, Barnes sent this from a very pleasant Madeira.

Only a seven-day break, not a permanent home. Then we're grateful for that. Her other green tip, and then we'll leave it there. Put your oven racks on the lawn overnight before washing them. The following day you'll only need to use hot water and soda crystals for cleaning. No chemicals at all. I mean, I'm going to try it. I'm going to try it. I think the foxes might take them away. I get the neighbours talking as well, but who knows? Madeira, very sophisticated. It

just sounds like... Which was there a famous writer who wrote a lot about Madeira or, I know I've got that wrong, my parents went to Madeira to celebrate their silver wedding anniversary. Oh that's lovely. Yeah and I always remember that. I always think it's a very, I know an awful lot of older people do go there and I always wonder about that because isn't it very hilly? Well you say older people of course they were much younger than I am now when they celebrated their silver wedding anniversary. Were they? How old would they have been? So they would have been way younger than me, so only in their early 50s.

Okay, that's not way younger. Geez, sometimes, Jane, I think you're wishing a kind of octogenarian status upon yourself. But I do remember thinking at the time that when they went on this holiday to Madeira, they were a pair of clapped-out has-beens. They'd just shared that terrible judgement of youth I realise now. They hadn't even got to their prime. Anyway, they had a lovely time. So if anyone's thinking about going to Madeira,

Barnes sounds happy there and my mum and dad had a great time in the early, must have been early 1980s. Right. Tales from Madeira will take in limited numbers please. It's also Raffles. Isn't Raffles Hotel in Madeira? I thought that was in Singapore. Yeah, you're probably right. And then there's a fortified wine called Madeira. Yes. Yes. Is that better? And there's a cake.

Right. And that's where we'll leave it. Okay. I think it's the capital Fungao. Fungao? Funchal. Funchal? Okay. Fungal. Fungal? Funchal. Funchal? OK. Fungal. Funchal. Funchal. You can get something for that. Now, welcome to...

I know we did talk a lot about whether or not you should become a mother. That was that last week or the week before. It was over the last couple of weeks, wasn't it? And I just want to say hello to Zoe. And I hope you've had some sleep, Zoe. But Zoe had a daughter five days ago at the time of pinging her email to us so she just says she'd like to offer her expert view on motherhood in light of what you've been talking about. Tonight I'm up with her sleeping on me, it's the only place she will, I

spent possibly thousands on snooze pods and docker tots do you know what they are there obviously I've got no idea sorry I think a docker tot is a it's a rocking is it a rocking kind of Bay for an infant I don't know anyway obviously her daughter has made the entirely reasonable decision that she'd like to sleep in close proximity to her mom for the time being. I think they're all like that at the start aren't they? I think you can have the most luxurious alternative available but you can't fool a baby. They know when they're with a human, they know when they're in a snooze pod and they prefer the human. So I don't think that's unusual is it?

Zoe doesn't have any need to worry about that. No not at all. Not at all. I mean, there are obviously, you do have to be really careful about sleeping with your baby though. Well, she's sleeping, the baby's sleeping on her. So presumably has access to, you know, she can breathe easily and whatever. I take your point.

The sleeplessness so far has been horrendous, says Zoe. And it was something that worried me before I got pregnant, along with so much else. I do agree with you that the rhetoric around it that basically it ruins your life is disempowering to women. So far the experience has had its share of drama, the anxiety, the overwhelming emotion and it hasn't all been positive. I've tried to be candid with myself and my husband and some close friends about not feeling 100% blissed out the entire time. Well, to that Zoe, I'd say be honest. Be honest with the people around you because of course

you don't feel blissed out 100% of the time. You're knackered. And no one feels anything close to blissed out when they just haven't had any sleep. Absolutely. But in those troubled moments, they can be overwhelming. They can feel overwhelming, but obviously hang on in there. And the brighter moments do come. I mean, it is just a great thing, Jane, that we can talk more honestly about that whole spectrum of the maternal experience. So motherhood should never have been like the Masons,

and for a very, very long time it was. So I'd like to know more about the Freemasons as well, but we have been down that road before. I have to say, fertile territory by the Freemasons. But yes, it is good that we can all acknowledge, you know, that there is a lot to like about motherhood and sometimes a lot to just really weep about. Shall we move on to penis portions again? Yes, because this is, it's quite a theme this. It is, isn't it? This is from Kate who says, when I was a kid, I once stayed for six weeks

with family friends when my parents were abroad. They were lovely people, their home was very orderly, whereas ours was very chaotic. chaotic but at dinner they always served the father and the dimwitted brother first and with the most. It's that judgment, the dimwitted brother. He could be, he's a professor now thanks to the amount of food he got. Well didn't they used to say that the dimwitted brother was the one, the first one went into the city, the second one went into the army. And then the third one was the church. The third one was the dimwitted, the one who went into the church, and if you had a fourth they went to work at Lloyds of London, the insurance brokers, god help us all, and if there were seconds, continued Kate, they did the same again, so the girls only got seconds if the man and boy didn't want any more. Goodness sake. What? Yes, I rarely got seconds and always felt the slight pain of

this. I was a long skinny 11 year old a high-speed metabolism and could easily have matched the men in Downing, double their penis portions. I was quietly appalled and so was my mum when I told her. She and our dad were rigorous in the equal division of food and all other resources between me and my two brothers growing up in the 60s and the 70s. I'm shocked that this still happens in 2025. Well so are we Kate and I mean if there is a hill that Jane and I can die on it's gonna be this. Okay make your portions equal the end of penis portions

we'll march if we need to. Yeah we will. Do you think because it's often women who are in speech marks to blame for this, because they have a tendency to revel in their son's appetite and sometimes not be perhaps more judgmental of a daughter who wants more, because some mothers, not all, do judge their daughters by their appearance, worry for their daughters because they have a fear that their daughters might just grow up to take up too much space in the world and heaven forbid that that might happen. I don't know I wonder whether fathers would dole out the portions in the same way. I'm interested in that. Because

let's face it mothers have been teenage girls and they've been through that experience and does that mean that you repeat it? That you repeat it? Yeah I don't know I don't know. I think times are so different now. I'd like to think they were. Jane I think our understanding of what controlling behavior around food ends up provoking is much better so I'm just really hoping not. I hope not too, but I wonder. But I would say as well and obviously this would just be completely different for different people but my teenagers, there has been a difference to how much food my son can just put away. Oh no, absolutely.

I mean he definitely went through a phase and we all used to talk about it as mums of teenage boys. You know, there is that really extraordinary period that seems to happen a lot where they'll come home from school, you know, aged 15 or 16, and they will just eat the fridge. They'll just eat the whole fridge and they'll need supper as well, about half an hour after that. And I haven't experienced the same thing with my daughter, so I don't know. I mean maybe there is a metabolism, there's a growth of muscles, there's a growth but there's a testosterone surge and I'm sure... I think that's different from the table situation where the parents, usually the mom, yes I take your point, are doling out the portions and making some kind of a judgment.

Making an internal judgment, which sometimes your internal judgment can be displayed facially. Anyway, I'm really interested in what people think about that. Actually, shout out to my two nephews, neither of whom will be eating big portions today, as the norovirus works its way through their home. Oh no Jane, no! It's everywhere. No, that's horrible. Yes, they won't be listening but I'm thinking of them.

Now this is interesting because we were talking yesterday to Alison Saunders, Dame Alison Saunders who'd been the Director of Public Prosecutions here in the UK. This is about juries and jury service and we've had some interesting emails on this. Can you keep me anonymous? Yes we can. I've been chosen for jury service four times, twice in Scotland and twice in Winchester. Is it because I've got an unusual surname? I'm not gonna mention it obviously because you're anonymous. I don't think that can be the case. Anyway, of the four times I was only chosen once, it was last year, and I was on a drugs case,

I had to try the person from a file full of pages of text messages. It was really hard going. And the jury was definitely half and half, and it was the more professional jurors that were leaned on to help the others due to a lack of literacy and other issues. I'm a teacher and I was chosen to be the lead juror.

I found the responsibility horrendous and I honestly hope I never get chosen again. Fee said she would love to do it. I don't know whether it was you who said it or whether it was me. It was you. And I believe once you're responsible for someone's future, it's quite horrible.

I have actually, I'm not sure I would love to do it, thinking about it really, but anyway thank you for that experience and I take your point that actually it was actually rather grim and awkward. And here's another side of the story. Read your discussion yesterday about whether jury service can affect members of the public who have to sit and listen to every detail of horrible cases. I haven't done jury service but I do support the idea of help because my husband was a criminal barrister and it really changed him. He was sucked into

the drama and the glamour of it by watching things like Crown Court. Do you remember that? Oh, I do. Yeah. I would have gone for LA law, but Crown Court, gosh, I wouldn't have said glamour, but carry on. But the reality turned out to be profoundly depressing, dealing every day with the really dark side of life. When, one afternoon years ago, I was at home with our small daughters and suddenly remembered we were meant to be somewhere else, we dashed away, leaving the house in a mess. We got home some hours later to find my husband pacing the floor,

at first worried that we'd been abducted, and then angry that I hadn't thought to leave a note. Who else would have imagined such a thing? But his work life had trained him to always think the worst. He started out as such a cheerful and funny man but he ended up the opposite. I imagine that does do it to you. But very much so and I mean that's my point about jurors. I just think some people are having to witness the most awful things that the rest of us aren't having to and I'm sure it changes you and that kind of it's your civic duty so you've got to and therefore you know you're being a bit bad if you don't. I think that

adds an extra layer to it too. I mean I'm sure that I will get asked again, definitely on a list somewhere and they do promise if you turn jury service down that you know you will have to at some stage but I dread it Jane, I would really dread it. I think it's even worse actually for those people who do do it and then sit there for up to a fortnight or longer and never get chosen. Oh no I'll be happy with that. I don't think that has to be quite frustrating. The vending machine at Snaresbrook Crown Court I believe is quite good. Dear Jane and Fee, now I'm going to really, really, really try and get this pronunciation

right. It's about language for describing very close friends. This comes in from Claire who describes herself as a regular listener and regular correspondent. Remember the giant hedgehogs of New Zealand story from a couple of years ago? I do actually, because I find hedgehogs quite frightening and apparently there are enormous ones in New Zealand. Just roaming the islands. Literally waiting at the airport for you as you land. Here in New Zealand, says Claire, there is a beautiful Maoriori term now commonly used across the many different cultures here called Fāno.

Now it's spelt W-H-A with an accent N-A-U but pronounced Fāno since the W-H in Māori is pronounced like an F. While Fāno can refer to immediate and extended family, it's also often used to include those close to you or anyone who shares a common purpose. Māori culture is collectivist rather than individualistic, and whānau at its core reflects relationships, responsibility and interconnectedness. So a group of family and friends at a celebration, for instance, would be referred to collectively by that one word. As an immigrant to New Zealand from the UK, you are Noel Edmonds. I find the term incredibly inclusive, always happy to hear more about Noel. It always feels warm and welcoming

when someone refers to you as Farno, especially if you've formed a genuine connection. You'll offer hear people greet a group with Kia or a Farno. So for those friends who are like family, calling them that offers a way to show love and connection without having to explain all the nuances each time you introduce them. Perhaps we should find a similar one word term to use in the UK. I think we should. So it's a, I mean it's a very similar thing to the clan, isn't it? Which you know obviously is very powerful up in Scotland and you'd be identified by your tartan, you'd be permanently identified by belonging to a clan no matter who you married, but we don't attribute that kind of

thing down south anymore at all do we? No, but I was just thinking about this overnight, yes, I do do thinking overnight. Growing up, I don't think it happens anymore, but maybe it does, we were sort of encouraged to call family friends either Auntie or Uncle. I think a bit icky. But it was very common, it was just what we did. It was a sort of respectful way to address adults to whom you were not related. Maybe it's a Northern thing. No, I don't think so actually.

I know people who refer to especially great big kind of groups of female friends of your mums as aunties, more than uncles. But I just think we do need more terms to differentiate levels of friendship and connection in our lives. And actually that's what I really loved about Elizabeth Day's book about friendship, Frendaholic, was it just explored all those different layers of friendship that you have. And she was right that you go into a bookshop and there's just acres of stuff about relationships, loads of stuff about parenting, loads of stuff about family, very little stuff about friendship and it defines your life, your friendship, and can be really difficult to navigate sometimes as well. So bring it on.

Let's not just have one word for it, it's weird. And friendship is what our events at the Barbican next week are all about. Do you think that was good? It was very good, yep. You'd have to pay for that. Well, there's a price for everything. So our guest on Tuesday of next week is the brilliant Annabel Croft. And then on the Saturday, we've got Joe Brand. It's going to be super, super exciting. I can't wait. And thanks.

We've had lots of people emailing in about their travel arrangements. There's a big posse coming from Wiltshire. We're very excited about that. And good luck to all of you making your way to London for the event. And the weather's not too bad. I did check. It's cold on Tuesday, but I don't think there's anything untoward happening. And you'll be free by what do we reckon? 20 to 10? By 9.30? You'll be well out of there by 9.30. So't worry it's not a late night. No. No because neither of us want a late night. Now Paula Radcliffe was a guest um was it last week or the week before? The week before. And she is a very famous athlete and going back to marathons and I love this email from Deleth who describes herself as having been flabbergasted back in

October when she got a letter telling her that she'd actually got a place in the London Marathon. Now I know loads of people apply and I think they probably comfort themselves with the knowledge that it's going to be really tough to get in, so chances are you probably won't. And apparently, Deletha tried on and off for 25 years to get a place. She submitted the application this year thinking that in all likelihood she wouldn't be successful. Anyway she got in and she says here let's say I received the news with subdued joy but then decided to rise to the challenge and run the marathon in April in fancy dress and raise some money for charity along the way. Well honestly I'm so impressed, best of luck to you. She went out running two weeks ago and pricked up her ears when Paula came on the pod,

describing her foray back into marathon running and the relative difficulty of achieving such a feat at the age of 51. However, Paula, who I have no doubt is valiantly galloping through the sunny foothills of Monaco – I'm not sure about that actually – managed to omit some of the small hitches that this 50-year-old is encountering, such as perpetually sore feet, I've got an arthritic big toe, a stretching regime, which is almost as long as the run, and having to complete all the runs in the morning as I'm less likely to wet myself post childbirth stress incontinence. Right. What started as a noble act of charity has also revealed an unexpected benefit of wearing a fancy dress costume. It'll come in handy to... oh my god... to carry home my prolapsed uterus

after the marathon. By 26.2 miles I've no doubt it will no longer see fit to stay inside my body. Okay. She's very excited though to come to see us on the 4th. Do you think you could make arrangements for it to stay on board, at least for the duration of the show, if you don't mind? Although to be honest there can't be a better show to go to if you think that that might happen to you. As I think everyone would just be very understanding and have some tales to tell. Yes, look, best of luck with the training. I honestly, I really do respect people who do the marathon. I've no idea how you do it. You've got 20 million, billion times more courage than I have. Hope it goes well for you.

Now one thing that might be of interest to you, have you been chased around the internet by those socks? I'm now showing Jane Garvey. Those Pilato socks. Well, it's a picture of toe-less socks that have got some kind of a compression thing. They're just ankle socks. And I've not bought any, I've not discussed socks. I don't have particularly painful feet. But this advertisement is chasing me around the internet at the moment. So much so that actually I did send it to a friend who's done a little bit of research about what it is because I didn't want to click on it just in case it then overwhelmed my life and I really could never escape from it anymore.

And he's found the blurb. If you suffer from plantar fasciitis, which I think is... I have heard of and it's very painful. Very painful in your feet. Lead an athletic lifestyle, are seeking to lose weight, or are an older American. This might just be the most important thing you read today. Isn't that bizarre?

Just very, very specific groups there. People who suffer from plantar fasciitis, people who are running a lot, seeking to lose weight, or if you're just old and live in America, you need these socks. Anyway, apparently they utilise the freshly patented military and medical grade compression technology that's never before been available to consumers. Gosh, what happens? I know. So you might want to look into it yourself. Unbearably itchy and swollen ankles,

it deals with two weak arches. As I've said before, it was a sign of a lack of morality in my childhood. Arches are weak and especially if they're fallen. It's a terrible thing. You might never recover from it. Imagine being a fallen woman with fallen arches. Then there's another picture that's made it onto the Sock Soothers website, who knew there was such a thing, that's been made by AI. Can you see what the problem is there? They've put too many toes on the foot. Oh, terrible, absolutely terrible. And you look at it for a couple of minutes, you think what's going on? Oh my god, it's AI and they've put six toes on a foot. Very weird. Anyway, that's how I spent my morning. I was too busy because the window cleaners were there. I've not had a moment to myself today. I tell you what happened

to me on the tube in today. We've got to get on because we've got to guess. But do you know I normally just listen to something on the tube but today I met someone on the platform and it was really lovely to catch up with her. She'd been the secretary at my kids primary school and it's just sometimes so lovely to spend 25 minutes catching up with someone who you used to see every day and hadn't seen her for a long time and it was lovely. So sometimes let's just bring back, we were the only people on the tube talking and people were horrified but just sometimes it's just like going back to the 20th century where I think I was happier when people used to talk. Well I think also it's a like going back to the 20th century where I think I was happier, where people used to talk. Well I think also it's a real treat in London to bump into someone you

know. Yeah. So not just obviously when you're in your local neighborhoods but when you're out and about in London town and you bump into somebody it's just it's like a piece of magic isn't it? Just occasionally I've bumped into my sister in London and it just takes both of us completely by surprise. Sorry, what? Yeah, no, just like, oh. It's just like, yeah, we've both lived over 33 years now. I did bump into one of my children once and that was also really weird. It's so bizarre, isn't it?

It's really, really weird. I'm sorry, I did bring in a clipping only because I was absolutely horrified to read in The Sun newspaper today that it looks as though King Harold, the last of the Anglo-Saxon monarchs, had an en suite. Now, they know this because they have the manor house of Harold was featured in the Bayeux tapestry and a modern mansion is thought to stand on the same site in West Sussex. And excavators from the universities of Exeter and Newcastle have discovered that re-examining an excavation they've identified a toilet within a large timber building.

Research has revealed a trend from the 10th century for posh houses to have integrated loos. Well, I'm not surprised. If you had all of the money in the world and you were top of the pile, wouldn't you make sure that you didn't have to walk down a very windy corridor for a whittle? The headline is, on suite flushes out King Harold. You're absolutely right, but I mean, look, the first world complained this. I've never had an en suite.

I think you should treat yourself. And I am livid that Harold, who lest we forget, fell apart in the face of, who was it, William the Conqueror. He had the benefit of an en suite back in the day. And me, a podcaster in the 21st century, I haven't got one. Well, I mean, there's quite a lot of square footage in your mansion. You could have one put in. OK, I'll think about it. Or you could just wait until you are in sheltered housing and then I believe that that is pretty

much de rigueur. It's guaranteed isn't it? Yeah. Really? Oh, oh come on. I mean I think by, wouldn't it be the first thing that you think about when you're designing for older people, the necessity of a bathroom being very, very convenient and very near? I don't know. I mean, if you're if you're in sheltered housing or your parents

are and they've got to walk down a long corridor for a whittle with a podcast that you can tell us about it on. Let's face it, there aren't that many podcasts which would take those sorts of emails. You could send it to Rory and Alistair, but I don't think that they'd cover it because they're like that. They're mean like that. They'll have en-suite so won't they? Yeah. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. On a cool cloudy January morning in 2022, Ian Indredson makes himself some eggs, plays with his dog, walks out the door of his waterfront home and disappears. The 54 year old senior

government spokesperson is a gifted writer. He lives a life of some privilege and comfort with his wife, Gloria, and their beloved black lab Willow. So what happened to Ian? I'm veteran journalist, Laura Palmer. And this is Island Crime Season 7 Evaporated. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

A cast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Being a family law barrister for 20 years would probably be enough of a career for most people, but Nisha Katona isn't most people. And after two decades on the front line of child protection and the law, she changed tack, turning her love of food

and cooking into a hugely successful second career. She's the restaurateur behind Mowgli, the Indian street food chain. She's been awarded an MBE for services to food. You might know her from lots of TV shows, MasterChef, The Great British Menu, all kinds of things. And she's got a new show of her own coming out on ITV, where you can find her cooking up Freddie Mercury's favourite curry

in her open kitchen as her alpacas wander past. That sentence sounds mad, as if I've made it up, but it's all true, isn't it? How are you? Very nice to be here. That was an absolute casserole of a sentence. My entire career has been one big stew, really. I'm leaving. Let's do those three things at the end. Freddie Mercury's favourite curry,

your beautiful, beautiful open kitchen and the wandering alpacas. What joins all of that together? It makes no sense. And I think it's just, I think the joy of this is the chaos. You know, the fact that my life is so disparate, you know, so many different facets to it. I think this is the reality and I think that show brings it all together because

of course, yes, there's the history and I was a barrister and then running mogul, you know, so, so you're in this completely full-time job. I'm building seven restaurants a year, but all the while you are there, where your primary function is to feed your family. Um, that is,, that is just the way the biscuit has crumbled that I am the one that is the cook in the house. So for most people, I mean getting their own TV cookery show would be, you know, the absolute kind of zenith of their career but I wonder whether actually it is just kind of another thing that you're doing because actually you have

been hugely successful in restaurants, you've had a successful legal career. Yeah it's very interesting isn't it because when you start off on the TV journey for me it was a little bit fortuitous, so I'm not here's the thing I'm not entertainment I'm not entertaining you know so I don't do entertainment shows. I have two passions I have a passion about food and a passion about business. And so any TV where I can talk about those things are the kind of gigs that I want to do. And I think your sense of purpose in life can't come from doing a TV show. You know, I think I'm 54 now and so life erodes you and you start to realise the things that really, really matter. You know, your health is a big one at this stage, your health is a big one. And also that kind of contentment and what is that level of contentment?

And TV sure as hell doesn't bring you contentment. But my passion is sharing with the world the way the world cooks and how simple it is. And that sense of achievability and the therapy of cooking. Yeah. Be it for yourself, be it for your friends, be it for your family and so it is very satisfying in that way. I've been very lucky. And you're also trying to take away some of the fear of the spice rack aren't you and the way that a lot of people might think oh I can't possibly cook this curry because it's got 17 different spices I'm not quite sure about what the you know the the right number of lentils are I'm familiar with this, but you're trying to make it simple for us, aren't you?

I think that's the thing about, you know, Mowgli was the first Indian chain nationally. That's fascinating. At 2020, what are we, 2024? You know, an Indian who's been in this country since the 1700s. Why did it take till now to get the first national Indian chain? And I think that's what I've dedicated myself to. All I am is really kind of a sherpa. So it's I think because I'm second generation and I speak like this

I'm basically a kind of brown English person that knows these spice formulas and And they are they're tried and tested formulas. Most curries are predicated on three spices two of which never change I mean, why would you not want to evangelize that? Do you want to know what they are? Turmeric and chilli in everything to the point that if you ask an Indian for a recipe they won't cite it because they presume that knowledge. So turmeric and chilli and everything and depending on the genre of ingredient that third spice changes so if it's meat that third spice is garam masala. If it's brassicas it might be mustard seed, root veg,

cumin seed, you see, that's it, my job is done. But that's why, it sounds so silly, but that's why I gave up the law to go out and teach people how to cook. I was doing it, you know, them at the same time for a while. But to teach people that actually what you can wield with lentils is miraculous. This is a really healthy way of eating

and very simply conjured. Well I'll tell you what, your enthusiasm for the lentil, it sparked my enthusiasm for the lentil so it's a win-win situation. Before we talk about lots of other things to do with your career, just a couple more questions about the TV show. How do you know that chicken dansak was Freddie Mercury's favourite curry? I think it's a Google job. And it's not just that. It's not just that, but I'm fortunate enough to have spent some time with Brian May, which is very nice because Anita, his wife, is a pal as well and so and they're real curry fans, you know, they're real curry fans and so I think it's known that that was his favourite curry. OK. In the show that I watched of yours, which comes to ITV and to everybody,

is it this week? Does it launch this week? It's on the 8th of February. I think it's 11.30 ish in the morning on ITV. Right. You do make most fantastic chicken danzak curry in this beautiful open kitchen, in your home. I mean, it's more of an estate than a home, isn't it? We use the word small holding. We use the word small holding. Oh my word. You need wellies to walk around it. It's rough, you know, because there's alpacas, there's horses, there's goats, there's dogs, there's guinea fowl and ducks and chickens and all the mess that they produce. So there is nothing estate about this. You know what I mean?

It's just enough land for those things. OK, but it's rather lovely, isn't it? Because you're cooking away and then, you know, the camera just pans around and there's an alpaca just staring at you. It's incredible. So what we've taught them to do is free roam. This is the dream. Honestly, it's pathetic, isn't it?

But this is my idol. That business about what, why, why am I here? What is it that gives me complete contentment? And it's that, that the alpacas are free-roamed. So you get up in the morning and their faces are there at your kitchen. Oh, God. It's not an honour, but that scare you. Suppose you might get used to it. It's so lovely. It's what I dream of, Nisha. It really is. Are they entertaining creatures? They are fascinating because they're not like any other creatures that we know. So my goats and my horses, all my other herbivores love a cuddle.

You can interact with them, you can touch them, they seek out human company in that way. Alpacas you cannot really touch. So they are, somebody described them as alien field clouds. They don't have hooves, they have talons like raptors. So they've got these three claws. So they're the most gentle animals but they really look into you so they'll come right up to you, stare into your eyes, ferret around in your soul but you can't cuddle them and that's the first thing you want to do. So they're really interesting, you just observe them and they bring this tranquillity like nothing else. If you're interested in animals, honestly

it is a fascinating animal to have. And they've got very bad teeth, haven't they? No, one of mine has, because he's a rescue alpaca. He's got a twisted jaw and a bulging eye. Right. Yes, so he's a welfare alpaca, so he's got very, very strange teeth. Where did he come from? He came from a farm in Devon with his brother.

So you can only ever have alpacas in threes, like any animal, like with goats as well, because if one of them dies, they're very, very close to each other. The other one could pine to death. It's the same with ducks really. So you always have pets in threes. Gosh, I'm learning a lot today.

I know, I'm sorry. None of it's useful though, is the problem. Oh no, it's all fantastic. It's all fantastic. We've got a couple of really big topics we want to ask you about before our time runs out. Just tell us a little bit more about setting up the restaurants because you've mentioned already that in middle age women have a certain wisdom but are also seen, let's be honest about it, you should, by society, as heading out of their prime.

So when you were setting up your restaurants, it was at the age where actually, a lot of people are thinking, am I capable of what I used to be capable of? But why did you feel capable of so much more? Do you remember, this was just the context of this. This was at the time when there were more Daves in the FTSE 100 than there were entire female humans,

more Steves in fact. So when I was thinking about setting, I had this food and I was quite, you know, I really wanted to pass it onto the next generation. I will die out as will many of my first generation Indians. I wanted to become British. There were no role models. There was nobody that looked like me that was doing this,

you know, that was made a success out of their lives as well and managed to pay their mortgage and was building restaurants. And so you do kind of build into this complete vacuum. It was very, very frightening. But what, and so therefore you, there is no playbook. You write it yourself. And I just think as you're right, at that point,

I was whatever, 40, 43, the next big horizon was the menopause, bereavement, these were the, that was it, that you know, you are kind of, empty nesting was happening. And what I think is just incredible and you know, this is what I'm passionate about is, is women like me, we have had so many corners knocked off us, you know which battles to fight, there is no ego, you know what I mean, you make formidable employers, as a result we've got, ego. You know what I mean? You make formidable employers. As a result, we've got so, our turnover is negligible. I've got a thousand members of staff, contentment levels so high, engagement levels so high. And I think there's just no pride in that way. And so we bring

this very different way of building businesses. We use words, it sounds crazy, like love in the business forum, which is just not done. The entire, you know, your entire armory of language is different. It comes from somewhere that's not business. I was never a business person and there's a great value to that. You bring a different complexion to business and it works. Just in case people are thinking what she just said, your turnover of staff is negligible. Yes, your turnover of money is smashing. Yes, it is. Yes, the turnover of money. Yeah, because I'm building, you know, seven restaurants a year. I'm on 25 at the moment. That is not to say, aren't we great? It's just women like me or

people like me out there who think they are in the twilight of their life. You bring some of the best things you can to the business world and we need you. And just to put some figures on that, you sold a majority stake in Mowgli Street Food restaurants valued in 2023 at about £25 million, so we'll just let that rest there. Do you believe that what the current Labour government is doing is going to enable people like you to really help grow the economy. It's very interesting I have to say it immediately

puts the brakes on any idea of growth. I'll tell you why because and I can tell you this in my own business that adds another whatever 1.x million pounds per annum into what we have to do but can I tell you the thing that is stalling I can only talk about casual dining, hospitality, restaurants, people are not eating out in the way that they did. And the reason they're not is because there is a real anxiety amongst consumers. There have been elections and that is one of the reasons the interest rates we need for we need those to drop inflation or whatever reasons that there is an anxiety amongst consumers. And so we need the economy to keep going the way that Labour approached it and I get it, is to put more money in the pockets of

those that are earning and I'm hoping that will filter through so those people whom we are paying and I'm very glad to be paying them will get back out and support the high street come, I don't know, March or summer, you know, we hope to see growth come from the bottom up in that way. Growth from the top up, i.e. me going out there and thinking I'm going to build 10 restaurants as opposed to six this year and for every restaurant we create 40 jobs, you know, and we pay tax and I'm proud of paying tax, someone's got to pay for the roads. That will stall. I don't think we can pretend, you know, anything other. People will think again about whether they are

going to build the economy, people people like us businesses that keep the economy going but I hope they're right and I hope what they've done is right and that the money will come into the pockets of the consumers and there will be mirth and celebration and the lights going back on the high street come summer right now businesses are dying every day almost famous went down I don't know if you know it Manchester brand of burgers lovely burgers went down. I don't know if you know it, Manchester brand of burgers, lovely burgers went down yesterday. In our industry, that's a dreadful death of a business. But just to put you on the spot about this

is the one thing that you believe would help. I mean, are you put off being hopeful apart from anything else because of an increase in national insurance employers' contributions, specific stuff like that? Can I tell you those specifics lead to a massive increase in our costs and that's fine if there is a philosophy behind it that is going to drive the economy in the short to medium term please God they're right then that's fine we don't know the answer to

that yet but what that has done, and it will make sense to them as well, to Rachel Reeves, that has to slow down the idea of growth. Of course it does. We've got an enormous, you know, with all the other headwinds that we face in business at the moment, you know, that the supply, for instance, you know, that is another headwind. Of course we're not going to grow staring into that, grow the way that we were going to grow, but I hope they're right. I think the most important thing is to get the economy turning again and if that is just to invoke those consumers to get out there and go and spend, because you can, because you've got a bit more,

be confident, then just fingers crossed. But we won't know the answer to that until the summer. It's very hard to write a budget into that. Well, Anisha, I wish we had longer. We could talk to you all afternoon. Lovely to meet you. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. We went from alpacas to economic activity. How did that happen? All the way through some handy tips with spices.

What more could you want from an interview? It was wide-ranging. It was. Nisha Katona's Home Kitchen starts on ITV on Saturday the 8th of February. When I grow up, I want to live on her farm, Jane, because she's doing all this beautiful lovely cooking in her outdoor kitchen and an alpaca just saunters past and that is just my idea of complete heaven. There's something about, I changed all my feeds at New Year because the news was just so bleak and I'm now following a lot of alpacas, llamas and goat farms. Are you? Yes. And it's genuinely made me happier. Genuinely made me happier.

At one point weren't alpacas a bit of a tax dodge? You've said this before. You have said this before. I think people could sort of invest in an alpaca farm and there'd be some, I don't know, people would then claim that they were doing something that they weren't. Okay. It gave alpacas a bad name, which they don't know what's going on. It's not their fault.

Although, to be honest, some of them have facial expressions that suggest they're dodging text. I don't know what you mean. And they're not native to Britain, are they? No, they're not. Where are they from? They're not, but they're just so funny. There's something about their... and llamas as well. You know, they've just got... Oh, maybe it was llamas. I was rude there about alpacas and I don't mean to be.

They've got bad teeth and they're just funnily built and they're just endlessly amusing. So... It reminds me of someone. I can't think who it is. Right, let's await more of your gorgeous emails. Yes, let's. Jane and Fee at Times. Radio. Have a lovely day. We're back with you tomorrow. Goodbye. Bye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and

Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. On October 3rd, 1980, a bomb was detonated outside a synagogue on Copernic Street in Paris. Three decades later, French investigators finally identified a suspect in the case. A Lebanese-Canadian sociology professor living a quiet life on the outskirts of Ottawa, Canada.

Is Hassan Diab guilty? Can you introduce yourself? Or is he a scapegoat? Hassan Diab. From Canadaland, this is the Copernic affair. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.