Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Tech is my rage place (with Daisy Goodwin)

Episode Date: June 28, 2023

Fi and Louise are being very brave using a new studio... next door to their usual one.They cover awkward interviews, why it matters what side of the sofa you're on, and filming fitness videos in the Caribbean.They're joined by Daisy Goodwin, the woman who has accused Tory London Mayor hopeful Daniel Korski of sexual assault - this was recorded before he pulled out of the race. Korski has denied the claims.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] our instagram! @JaneandFiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Right, here we are. I never understand this studio. Everything's always plugged into a funny place. I've got two headphones. I had a proper tech meltdown today. Did you actually have a hissy fit? I can't imagine that. No, so I didn't have a hissy fit, although... Did you have a panic? It's my rage place. Okay.

It's absolutely my rage place. Just because I can't... I just feel so angry for myself when I can't do something because I know that I'm just not going to be able to solve the problem. And I couldn't... We had an interview that was ready to go. Yeah. The interview that we're going to play out today.

Which is excellent. Which is Daisy Good goodwin so it's really important and you know she's having a very busy day and it's great to get her and all that kind of stuff and you must have this all the time especially in telly you know when you're up against something you don't want to keep everybody waiting there are lots of other people you know who are doing their stuff and and i was the one causing the problems because i normally um call technical support but i mean that is in my house and is it your it's my daughters and they're not always available but i tell you what what's so kind of brilliant but also irritating in some ways is they come in and they go and in five seconds it's all done yep and then they say things like why didn't you set up a bit

earlier i'm like well i will say it would seem to me like ages yeah unfortunately both of my children were very selfishly in school it's very inconvenient but i do try yes it's really hard and also being that newsreader thing in me as probably as well as you you just don't want to be the one that lets the side down or not make the exactly the headlines or whatever it is i know i went out early yesterday which is terrible but yeah you don't want to be the one do you no i don't at all not at all has anybody ever got so uh fed up with an interview that they've walked out on you um no i don't think they've walked out on me but i very nearly walked out on an interview why because they were so i'm not going to mention their name but they are a very famous actor um

i was about to add loads of details there but i'm not going to give you i've interviewed lots of people okay just to be honest don't worry i'll'll find out. Go on. Anyway, very famous actor. And I was, I always live my life, I would say, at the edges. Okay, so, you know, things are, you know, I don't need things to go wrong. And as I say, I don't want to be the person to make things go wrong. But I'd done breakfast in Salford in Media City, which is in the northwest of the UK. And I'd taken a train down to London to do this interview with big Hollywood, well, he's in Hollywood films, actor. And he was late and I really wanted to get home to put

the children to bed, give them their supper, whatever it was. I just really did not want to be right in London at that time. And he came in, he goes, I mean, who even watches BBC Breakfast? Have you got any viewers? Ouch. And the answer to that question... Six million. Thank you, Fi. Yeah. Yeah. Six million. But obviously, I being me went, yeah, yeah, we've got viewers. My aunt watches. Do you know what I mean? Just like, let's buy some sort of sympathy, I don't know, empathy into this rather than be boasty. Yeah, we've got six million, which I maybe should have done. And he just went on being rude. And I promise you,

I had one of those moments which doesn't come over me very often, but it's like a physical feeling. I was just like, do you know what? I don't want to be here. He doesn't want to be here. And I just, I'm just going to,

I want to walk out now. And I didn't. And I went back to my boss and I said, this happened. And he was so rude. And he said, I said, God, I just wish I could have walked out. My boss said a brilliant thing to me.

He said, you know, next time that happens, do. And it never happened again because I think I had that red card in my back pocket. And I knew that I had the power to go, right, you know what? I'm out, you're out, let's go. But yes, it was close. Absolutely, with your boss.

And especially now, don't you think, as viewers, we want to see the reality, don't we? We don't want to see the endless fakery. And those press junkets, I think, are nightmarish. And just, you know, just play the game, right? He's been paid enormous amounts to do the publicity for his film, which I don't think was very good, by the way, but I would think that now in hindsight, wouldn't I?

But, you know, just play the game. Be polite and just do your job. And also, how long was he expected to sit there being interviewed i mean all of like probably seven and a half minutes yeah so go figure go figure yeah anyway right so sorry we digress no it's all right i'll let everybody know have you huffed out in a couple of weeks time exactly who that person is i'm just gonna randomly drop a name into a conversation about something else because then it will be untraceable.

So it'll also keep people listening. No, I've never walked out of anything. But yes, Michael Winner walked out of an interview with me once. With you? Yep. And as you know, Joan Collins had me evicted from a press conference. Joan Collins? What had you done and as you know and joan collins had me evicted from a press conference

joan collins what had you done do you know what with the benefit of hindsight louise mentioned she was right to because yeah it was at bafta and she had launched a fitness dvd uh thing me jiggy that she had filmed uh in the caribbean and these very lush surroundings and that you know it involved doing kind of push-ups against a tree in a slightly seductive way. And, you know, for an audience I mean, it's a winner. who like that kind of thing. It was an absolute winner.

And I was way too cocky and I asked her some kind of age-related question. You know, about whether or not that was appropriate. And it's not a question that I would ask now. Of course. I wouldn't want to see an older woman being asked that by a younger woman. So the bad was absolutely on me. And she was right.

I mean, she's Joan Collins. She is Joan Collins. So she basically just said, that one over there, no more questions. Oh, gosh. And how did you feel? How did I feel? It took me a little while to process that the bad was on me it was a good thing that i did sit down and have a bit of a think about it at the time i don't know i don't

i think it was a little bit water off a duck's back interesting in that you know kind of 20 something way but it wasn't it just wasn't a good move by me. I mean, I've made, I've asked terrible questions as well. And sometimes you need a little bit of kind of self-reflection on whether that was the right thing to ask. Yes.

And in the moment, you can think this is hilarious. Yeah. And, hey, look at me. And actually, it's just not. It was just a really stupid question. And of course, I'd watch the DVD now.

I mean, the woman looks amazing. I bet she does. I mean, I look at 60, 70-year-old women on Insta. I know I'm not meant to look at Insta because it's probably bad for my mental health i mean i look at 60 70 year old women on insta i know i'm not meant to look at insta because it's probably bad for my mental health but i look at them go my gosh they're awesome if i can be like them that's fantastic yeah and if you can you know if you can turn around a fitness video filmed in the caribbean i mean that's just a win-win bring it on hindsight's great thing isn't it sorry joni baby uh right this comes John, who says, I was really fascinated to listen to how Louise Minchin

has battled for equality at the BBC, but it also reminded me that some years ago, it has been pointed out that too often men on breakfast sofas sit on the left, as we read left to right, it's a subtle but clear sign of precedent. I noticed when Dan Walker joined the more senior Louise, he took up that prime spot. It seems small, but it really does send a subliminal message.

Gina Davis has done similar studies about this bias in film. I was curious to ask if either of you have noticed subtle prejudice that often you think is small, but in fact makes a big difference. Well, that turned into a whopper, didn't it? That went. And do you know what? It's very strange because that happened a long time ago that happened 10 years ago so for for listeners that don't know i presented bbc breakfast for many years bill turnbull left the show and then dan walker who's

actually much younger than me which is you know shouldn't be a big thing right um and had never presented bbc breakfast was sat in bill turn's seat. So if you're looking at us from the telly, they sat on the left, and I sat on the right. And there is a school of thought, though it's not proven that we read left to right in English, for example. So you assume the person on the left is more important. So why would the person who's been there longer was the argument, and I'm smiling as I say this, because I don't know why I'm smiling actually because it's really important you know what for me image is really important and subtle things really matter so the point that somebody made and it was hilarious and you reminded me this what's been brilliant about the last few weeks for some reason

it's kind of come up again somebody wrote to the times or somewhere saying hello my name's dot and I'm from Cheshire. And how come is it that Louise, who's the most experienced and older person on this sofa, doesn't get to sit in the prime position, which is the one on the left? And it went global feed. There were massive think pieces about, you know, what this is a subtle form of sexism, etc, etc. And yeah, I think things really matter like that,

because it's subtle messaging. I think it's huge messaging as well. And I remember it as a news story. And obviously, I was incredibly sympathetic towards you. What did it do, though, to the dynamic between you and Dan? And who then solved it? That's a very interesting question. So it was never a problem between me and Dan

because that wasn't him who decided that. Do you see what I mean? And he always had my back. And I think we had a, and we've talked about it recently, there were a couple of occasions where we had, I would say, difficult conversations, and we probably had a difficult conversation about that. But we were always,

we just kind of had this agreement that we were on the same team, we backed each other and we would have equality. Whether that was doing the first interview or whatever it was, we were going to share and we would kind of put our foot down on that, which we did. And then, you know,

we talk about subtle messaging and then in my book, Fearless, which is out now there's been much made well done did I say did I mention I had a book

which you're reading which I love don't worry keep going anyway on a side point only you brought up because John said this

you know I started noticing that Dan always got to say hello and do the first interview and read you know the lead intro and I was just like what on earth is say hello and do the first interview and read the lead intro.

And I was just like, what on earth is this about? And it took me three months to get that changed. Three months of taking note about how often that happened. And it did get changed. But having been slightly bruised by the left-right row, I kind of knew that I had to have my evidence in order to present that to my boss and get that changed. I think that's awful. I think it is awful that in a meeting,

somebody didn't immediately say when Bill left and when a younger, less experienced man came in. They argued that it just wasn't the case. It was just because left was where, you know, Dan was tall, so he sat. But they literally, that was just not an argument that they could see or would have would have agreed with but what about the opening the program and doing yes so opening the program um thing so what's interesting about that is i think we have to be very careful that things don't go backwards because i've spoken to sean for example sean

and bill absolutely used to share that so so that was shared and then it it just sort of slipped into, and I don't quite know how, I'm not sure even people made conscious decisions about it, but it's just because they just slipped into always giving it to the guy first. And that, honestly, until you notice something, some things can go unseen. It was a lady at a charity thing who said to me, look, Louise, how come they always read the first headline? I thought, gosh, if the audience notice, and I've noticed, it's really subtle messaging for you who's sitting at home,

if you're a mum of two or whatever it is, how come the woman who's been there for much longer is always seeming to be subtly second-friddle? Am I explaining it for you? You're explaining it perfectly. And, you know, I find it one of those old tropes of the media that it amazes me anybody would want to still adhere to. Because, you know, it just is such powerful messaging.

Who speaks first? It's quite powerful messaging whose name comes first. And in lots of other areas. So in films, you know, they will have agents who obsess about, you know, which placing on the screen someone's name comes up in the credits and all of the title and all of that kind of stuff because it recognises how important that kind of thing is. And we have still got such a long way to go in our industry in radio

to flip that pairing of older man younger woman which has existed ever since somebody managed to compress radio waves into sound which was sort of brilliant about mine and dan's partnership because we were the exception because you took that role and yeah and it was a good partnership wasn't it until you decided to leave that was the hours it wasn't Dan let's be really clear but it was you know there I you know I was older more experienced in a new in a news background and I just think and then we had a great relationship and it clearly you know people I think you know enjoyed that so it's not like it doesn't work no and and also I do think it can be fun I think we've got a long way to go, actually,

before the pendulum swing has gone all the way to the other side and come back and settled in the middle. Because sometimes that pairing across generations of what used to be older man, younger woman, it was funny. You know, there would be a gap in the middle where you could create a little bit of humour. And that, I think, works equally well with an older woman and a slightly

younger man but we're really not brave enough no to allow that bit in the middle to be explored yet at all but it will be for me he was just like i've got a younger brother and he was just who i adore and slightly irritates me hi mark hello mark but and that's where the beauty of the relationship was because you can you know you can have relationships like that which are really fun and i don't know we just we had a great time yeah good good uh so thank you for that question john i hope that answered it uh in a very roundabout way it was very good we are a roundabout kind of a podcast um i did want to just ask you a little thing about your book and then we will introduce daisy goodwin because you mentioned I had a book? I did mention it, but it's called Fearless. And I started reading it properly last night. And honestly, I mean, just exhausted.

These women, they just could not be further from what I think is acceptable in a human being. I mean, so tell me about Christine. So Christine, I am so the good thing about the book. So there is there are eight, there are 18 women in the book, 17 different chapters, and you can read it in a chronological form, or as I directed Fi last night, because I knew this is how she'd react to this, you can read it in different, just pick up a chapter. And this particular chapter is about wild caving.

And Christine Grosser is a paramedic, and her form of fun is to explore caves going deep into the earth often scuba diving so she will go into a cave squeeze into tiny spaces dragging her scuba gear dive down in the utter darkness swim along with her i love the sort of james bond little things that pull them along 200 meters i mean it makes me lose my breath even talking about it she is utterly amazing she is exploring places in this planet where humans have never been before where humans never should go well just made me feel uh i mean beyond breathless actually. I do not understand anybody's mentality to want to go anywhere where the sun doesn't shine. But she's got this explorer's, adventurer's mentality,

and that's what she wants to do. It was like, you know, the first person to be on the top of Everest. There are people who want to be that person. And I just think it's, I mean, I went wild caving with her there was I went for four hours and it was horrific I hated virtually every single second of it there's not enough money in the world to make me do it again um but I have huge huge admiration um because again we talked earlier this week didn't we about explorers and always assuming well the assumption might be that they might be male and all the rest of it.

But the women in my book are all doing things at the edges of what I think is, what is it? Certainly past the edges of my barriers. They're just amazing. They're all doing exploring all sorts of different areas of sport. And I just love them, love her particularly. So I really understand that, pushing at boundaries. But I think that i

suppose it is just a different mentality whenever i see somebody who does that kind of there's a mountain i must climb it thing i just i just recoil from it because i think there's a mountain it poses danger uh you know really lovely people in your family might miss you actually if you had an accident up there and you never came back. And lots of people would have to come and rescue you. And then I'd have to do an interview that I didn't really believe in all about how extraordinary it was. So that's my...

I don't even know where to unpick that. I mean, yes, people would miss you, but hopefully you'd be okay. No, but I just see danger. potential, you know, fatality. Well, I think there's a lot. One of the things that happened to me in the big adventures that I did, there is danger, obviously, but most of the women really are very, they plan. You know, they don't take this, they're not gung-ho. You know, Christine, for example, plans meticulously, she's got all the safety in place. I do think

that fear is actually a good thing, because it does, it does sometimes stop you doing things that are really stupid. And there are moments, there's a moment when I was on a dual carriageway cycling in Argentina with this amazing woman who's a, who's an endurance runner called Mimi Anderson. And I just got the fear, got the fear that I was going to do all of those things. Because you and I probably got, you've got 31 years of bad news stories in your brain, haven't you? Yeah. And I just thought, actually, I've got the fear. I can imagine, I was imagining doing exactly what you're doing. If I have an accident, I'm going to feel like such an idiot, my impact on my family and the rest of it. And I just said, Mimi, I'm scared. And we got off. And actually, that was a really good thing to do sometimes to admit that actually,

this is not a great moment. And I need to just have a little bit of time off. So your gut is a good thing. But I learned a lot from them about why to push your boundaries. And I think if you do push boundaries and do things that you have been scared of and managed to do them, then in your life, when for example, you're in a really tricky interview with your boss or whatever it is, you've got backup and you think, you know what, I can do this. I'm brave enough. I've done brave things and I can take him on and I can have that conversation. Yeah, I guess.

I mean, I suppose, let me just put it to you. Go on, go on. There's a completely other way of approaching life, which is to allow so much silt to settle in the bottom of your river that your feet are immovable within it. What does that mean? And that is my approach to life now. What does that mean?

So instead of that kind of forward motion and being able to take a massive leap and believing that something, you know, your own resilience or whatever will catch you, that something, you know, your own resilience or whatever will catch you. I think I am happier now to just be so stuck in where I am that that's the bit that gives me my kind of certainty. Okay, I think we have to fundamentally differ on this then, don't we? Yeah, we do.

Which is nice. Yeah, so do I. I like that. And the thing is, a book about that won't sell. I don't know. You could argue that your book's done extremely well. I think the winner there. Who cares?

Right. More questions for Louise. We've only got her for another day on the podcast, kids. It's Jane and Fi at Times.Radio. And actually, we do need to talk tomorrow. Will you remind me? And Kate, our producer, will remind me too. Hello, Kate.

We definitely need stories from I'm a Celebrity. I've given you a couple of days to read back through the NDA. Yeah. You can work out. I have read it recently, actually. Okay. We'll talk about that. I'm so fascinated by that programme.

Most of all, just what on earth do you do all day? Anyway, that's for tomorrow. Today, we've got a really, really brilliant guest who is in the eye of a new storm at the moment. So Daisy Goodwin is an astonishingly successful television producer. She's produced quite a lot of things that you would definitely recognise on television. The Apprentice is one of her executive production roles.

So she's a really, really big cheese and she's also written several books. She has been a mental health campaigner. She's now in her 60s. And she has recently over the last 48 hours given a couple of interviews detailing an episode from her past from about 10 years ago, where she went to a production meeting with a special advisor at the time to David Cameron, a man called Daniel Corsi. And she will tell you what happened in that meeting and also why it has taken her

quite some time to name him and the reasons that she has for naming him now. So Daisy and I had a chat earlier on today and I started by asking her to explain exactly what has happened before that meeting and what happened in the meeting. I'd met Daniel Korsky a couple of times socially. And I was a television producer at that point, was running an independent production company. And I had been a producer, or I'd been the first producer on The Apprentice. And Daniel and I were talking about whether it was possible to produce a programme about the efforts of the Department of Trade to support small exporters abroad. In other words, to do some kind of competition format with the Department of Trade.

And so we discussed this, which, I mean, it sounds unlikely, but, you know, you can sometimes find great programs are very unlikely things um and as part of this discussion uh he invited me to Downing Street where I went in 2013 I turned up there on my bicycle I I veffed it outside the gates of Downing Street. I went in. They took my phone away. They kept me waiting for about an hour. He kept me waiting for about an hour. It's not the end of the world,

but I was parked on a sort of bench outside the Gents, which was, you know, slightly weird. And then he turns up, and he shows me into the Thatcher drawing room, which is where there's a big picture of Lady Thatcher. And we sit round a, he shows me to the Glen Eagle Summit table. He comments on my glasses, which I'm wearing sunglasses. glasses which I'm wearing sunglasses and he says you look like Monica Bellucci in your sunglasses which is just kind of a strange thing to say it was the time that the new Bond film had just come out and I I assume it was a compliment but

it was it was a bit weird and then he made some other sort of just slightly weird flirtatious frisky remarks which you know I mean I'm no stranger to flirtation but it was a sort of odd place to do it and then he put his feet on my chair we were sitting around a round table and his feet were on my chair, which I also felt was slightly, you know, invading my space in a slightly odd way. And then we chatted back and forth for a while. I can't remember really how much we talked about the idea, but I'm sure I tried to quite a lot. And then we got up and as I was leaving he put his

hand on my breast and I said, have you really been putting your hand on my breast? And he sort of sprang back. But, you know, that's where his hand was. And it's one of those things. I mean, I've thought about it a lot, but that's where his hand was. Could I have been mistaken? I don't think so, especially given the slightly awkward tone of the conversation before that. I mean, so I was sort of shocked, surprised. I'm not in any way traumatised because, you know, I think as I said in my piece, I was taller and older and generally uglier than he was. So I wasn't in fear of being assaulted. But I did feel, yeah, I felt surprised, dismayed, astonished and a bit, yeah, and a bit humanised.

I mean, it's a very odd thing to do to a woman who's 15 years older than you in Downing Street. Anyway, I then leave quite swiftly and to add insult to injury, I get outside to find that Special Branch are surrounding my bicycle with guns drawn because they thought my bicycle pannier might contain a bomb. Anyway, luckily I could prove to them that it didn't and I cycled back to my office. How did you report what had happened to other people in the next couple of days? What did you say when you got back to your office? You'll never what happened it was so weird i went to see this guy and you know he ended up groping me that you know i that's basically what i said and um i think people were amazed and i

told a lot of people at the time um in fact i told a lot of people at the time I also told someone I met a few months later at a dinner party who worked for the cabinet office about what had happened and you know so if they didn't know before they certainly

knew later I mean I made no secret of it but it didn't occur to me at the time for which I feel responsible it didn't occur to me to report it to someone and frankly who would I report it to because as I discovered yesterday trying to report something trying to report somebody in Downing Street's very hard just I mean I spent most I spent a couple of hours yesterday trying to get through to someone it's not easy but actually later on I realized it wasn't really very funny and it was actually horrible and that while it might be uh easy for

me to brush off someone like that, it might not be so easy for somebody who was junior to him, working for him or whatever. I don't take myself so seriously that I think that somebody, you know, behaving inappropriately to me is the end of the world, but I sort of feel that I think we've got to a stage now where we shouldn't have to tolerate women should not have to tolerate that kind of behavior and you know if people like me don't say something then who's going to because you know people say oh you're brave for speaking out I don't feel particularly brave. I just feel, well, you know, I'm a 61-year-old woman with a long and fairly successful career. If I'm too scared to speak out, then frankly,

the world is never going to change. Had you been aware of other women who had had the same experience with Daniel Kowalskiky and was that one of the reasons why you wanted to speak out now? To be honest I didn't know of anybody who had had an experience like that with Daniel Korsky until I wrote my piece and yesterday when it was published I was contacted by three women who'd had similar experiences so I felt justified in having written the piece because I realized that you know as I suspected that I wasn't the only one. And Daisy when you had mentioned that incident to people over the years had you told people who it was had you

mentioned his name and if you had what had people's reaction to that been I mean the people my friends were like god how weird how extraordinary um I think they could see that I wasn't think they were rushing to offer me counselling. But I can't say that, well, I mean, no action was taken. I mean, I sort of, I didn't take it very far, but I did tell the one person I met, you might be able to do something about it. And as far as I could see, nothing happened. And as far as I could see, nothing happened. And then later on in 2017, because of the Me Too movement, it became clear to me that I had been remiss in not doing anything about it

because I suddenly realised just how prevalent this kind of behaviour was. And having been someone who rather prided myself on just not taking any notice of that kind of thing, I felt, well, that's fine for me, but it wouldn't be fine for my daughters, and, you know, why should I, why should there be one law for me and one law for them? So, and it's not good enough to say, you know, we had to deal with this in the past. You know, get on with it. Nobody should have to deal with this. So I decided to write a piece for the Radio Times in which I said, you know, things are changing.

Thank goodness. I talked about a time when I'd been molested on a tube train when I was 15. And my parents had basically said, this is awful but there's nothing they can do because it'll be your word against his and you know I think they were trying to spare me the sort of humiliation of going to court but you know I was 15 year old school girl and the guard broke me between the legs you know and I hit him with my Greek dictionary so you know that was a fairly clear-cut case and now I feel you know they should have done something because he might have leased to somebody else who didn't have a Greek dictionary to hand and I also think that it was my duty to do something so I wrote this piece and what

was interesting I didn't name him at the time because I didn't really see the point of naming him at the time. The interesting thing was the reaction, which was a number of people who have worked in the cabinet office sort of suggested a name. You know, everyone seemed to know who it was and that suggests that they were aware of his behaviour. Our big interview this afternoon is with Daisy Goodwin, and we're talking about her account of that meeting that she had with Daniel Korski

that has caused so many complications now. I asked what she expected to happen after she had named him in the press and whether she expected someone from the Conservative Party to get in touch with her. Well, I didn't know what to expect, but nobody from Conservative Party headquarters has got in touch with me. A lot of other people have.

No one's been in touch with me. I mean, no, yesterday I did try, because I thought, well, I need to do this as a member of the public work because, you know, it would be interesting to see just how easy and difficult it is to make a complaint. So there was a lot of debate about who I should complain to. So I decided to complain to the Cabinet Office. So I rang up the switchboard at number 10. And they kept saying, but where are you calling from what organization do you represent I said well I don't know sort of aggrieved aggrieved women women everywhere and I got they said we don't take messages I finally got through to someone

who said oh well I'll get someone to call me back. They never did. And then I, and I did say, my name's Daisy Goodwin. I've written a piece, it's in the Times today about how I was, I mean, I explained myself and nobody called me back. And then later, and then I spoke, and then I sent an email to the Cabinet Secretary's office saying, I'd like to make a complaint about being read by about you know in the spender by Daniel Korsky in 2013 again I got I got an out of office reply on the um on my email saying there's nobody here to to answer your email um but you know at weekends you can try this number on switch and i thought well that's that's very helpful and what would you like to happen now because you are now in a situation

where you're locking horns with a man who has a completely different recollection of events and has completely denied that any of those things have taken place and has basically said that your recollection is not correct? Well, as Mandy Rice-Davies famously said, he would, wouldn't he? I mean, I literally have no reason to be here other than the fact that I think a man who behaves like that should not be the leading candidate for the Tory party to be mayor. Surely there are men out there who don't have a past, a dodgy past, who are more suitable for the job. I mean, you know, I feel that a man who's capable of this kind of behaviour shouldn't be mayor. And it's not, you know, I mean, obviously people have tangled love lives, it's not that,

but, you know, behaving like that in a public place and abusing power in that way i think is is not on and i would hope it wouldn't happen to anyone else i think the fact that i have been contacted by other women suggests that i'm not alone and perhaps my recollection you know i mean i what happened. And I think the fact that other women have gone through similar experiences suggests that, you know, there was a pattern of behavior there. And that's, you know, that's not acceptable. I know that you've said that you didn't want to feel like a victim and you didn't want to behave like one. And I think there's something so important, Daisy, in somebody of your kind of stature actually saying that, because sometimes it is hard for people to understand why women don't always want to report every single thing that happened

because it does change how you can feel about yourself can't it totally and if i spent but if i'd spent my early life reporting all the things that happened to me i'd never do anything else i mean to be honest i i don't want to feel a victim. I don't want to portray myself as a victim. No one needs to feel sorry for me. I'm angry because I think it's wrong that this sort of thing goes on, especially in Downing Street. I mean, anywhere, actually.

I don't think men... I mean, I think men with impulse control problems, which I think is what Daniel Korski has, are probably not the best people to run the country. That's my considered opinion. So, you know, and I don't know, I would imagine a lot of other people might agree with me on that. I just think people who can't keep their hands to themselves should, you know, should not be in positions of power um it's not that i'm approved i just think you don't vote virtual strangers in public would you also just like to tell our listeners all of the other things that you could have been doing over the last 48 hours

rather than having discussed this well i i've got a book i'm in the middle of writing i've got a thousand things i'm at this moment i'm meant to be going to do uh an interview about you know osborne house 150 years of osborne house i'm i'm going on holiday tonight i i really um i'm squeezing this in because you know i want to put my point across but I I can't say that I enjoy it um you know it is it gives me no pleasure to be doing this I just think sometimes you've got to do um the right thing and a very respected person who I well in his lot rang me about three weeks ago and said did you know did I know that that Corskey was running for mayor and I said I didn't and he said oh okay well you know what next and I think and I respect him very much and you know I think, and I respect Ian very much, and, you know, I think he made me feel that this was the right thing to do.

And, you know, I too feel that it's the right thing to do. And, I mean, if Daniel Korski had at any point reached out to me and apologised or said, you know, maybe that would have been a different thing or whatever. But, you know, his tactic is the age-old tactic of denying everything. The woman's a bit of a fantasist. What does she know? Da-di-da-di-da-di-da. I mean, you can doubt my veracity. Everybody can doubt my veracity if they want to.

But there is really no reason for me to make this up. I don't need, I don't need any, I don't need, I don't need to be here. I don't particularly want to be here. So, and after this, I'm really, this is the last word I'm going to say on this. I wouldn't have done it publicly except that all the other channels seem to be you know that I mean I did at one point I heard that he was going up for a directorship at a government department and I happened to know someone who was the chair of that board and we were talking about him and I told that person the story of what had happened to me and that person, who I really can't name, was very grateful to me for that information. he didn't get that directorship and yet he's been backed as a candidate for the Tory mayor.

So if Daniel Korski is listening to this, a lot of people do listen to Times Radio, Daisy. We're grateful to you for having spoken to us. What would you say to him? I think he should withdraw. I mean, it's as simple as that. Daisy Goodwin, who was talking to me earlier today. So Louise, I think as we chatted a bit yesterday, you know, there will hopefully now be an investigation and perhaps we'll learn more about what happened in that meeting but I think what I just hold in all of these cases is just the really simple premise of why would a woman ruin part of her week part of her day part of her memory actually part of her reputation because now we're talking about Daisy Goodwin in a different way

to how we would have talked about her last week, which would just be about her work. Why would anyone do that to themselves? It is a tough thing to do. Yeah, and then you put yourself out there, don't you? And there comes all sorts of criticism and questioning, you know, people questioning whether that's, you know, that her account is the account, et cetera, et cetera. And not least of which, I mean, I've been, we alluded

earlier, nothing, not like this, but, you know, to be part of that news cycle is very bruising. She's made herself very vulnerable, hasn't she? And that's a very brave thing to do. And I mean, hats off to her for saying that, actually. And I really like the point and it's one that we've all been trying to explore over the last decade or so and it looks like we need to carry on just about the type of qualities

that have been celebrated in men for a very long time that are seen as part of their success and not part of a failure and actually there just is a different judgment because I don't know of very many women in positions of power for whom there has ever been a whirl of sexual gossip around them i just don't yeah that's just a fact that might be because i simply haven't been party to those conversations it could be loads of things, or it could just be

that's not the type of woman who is allowed to get to the top. But there just is a lot of evidence about male behaviour, which is why we're talking about it again today. And then also, aside from this case, because it gets difficult, doesn't it? I just think that point that she's made somewhere else, that people put their hands up and then suddenly other people go, and this is not in this case, by the way,

but, you know, you put your hand up and you say, this happened to me. And then other people go, yeah, it did actually happen to me too. And it takes a lot of bravery to be that first person. And I'm not saying this is the case in this case, but it takes a lot to do that, to be that first person. And then, you know, I mean, it's incumbent on all of us because it's a hard thing to do isn't it to even you know

to come out of that meeting and go this happened because again you're making yourself so vulnerable aren't you yeah yeah and what a weird thing to have to go back to the office i know someone goes how was that you get a production idea out of it? And you go, well, no, actually. Yeah. This is what I got out of it. Yeah. Anyway, we need to keep having these conversations and, you know,

good on for all those people who do put up their hands when things like that do happen on behalf of the other people who can't or are not in a position to. And obviously, we would love to hear from Daniel Korski if he'd like to come on the programme

and therefore on the podcast. We would certainly give him an equivalent time and an equivalent hearing. If you're listening, Jane and Fi at times.radio. Goodbye. Bye. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler

and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run. Or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.

Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I know, sorry.