Off Air... with Jane and Fi - That itchy bum thing (with Caster Semenya)

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

Today it's Jane, Fi and Fi's extremely loud tummy. The three of them discuss celebs in panto, Jane's need to show off and "FerGie". Plus, they're joined by double Olympic champion Caster Semenya to discuss her memoir 'The Race To Be Myself'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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It's Thursday morning. Got to do it early. I can't actually... Did I ask to do it early? I did, didn't I? Yeah, it was me, yes, because I'm going to the theatre. I know a lot of people look forward to my theatre reviews,

so brace yourselves. There'll be one coming next week. I tell you what, the Radio Times' loss was Theatreland's gain. I know a lot of people look forward to my theatre reviews, so brace yourselves, there'll be one coming next week. I tell you what, the Radio Times' loss was Theatreland's gain. I think it was. I think it was. I don't really know what to say about plays, though, because my theory about plays has always been everyone's really glad when they're over. Why are you going, then?

Because I think it's important to go, to keep it alive. Actually, this is a play that, on the face of it, I may as well say which one it is, it's got this amazing cast. Kristen Scott Thomas and Lily James, and it's called Leoness, and on paper, it's going to be, it's

amazing. Unfortunately, the reviews have been, I think, mixed would be charitable. So, you've got to keep an open mind, haven't you? No, I don't go to the theatre. No, you don't, do you? I've got to doggedly still pursuing. As a middle-aged woman, I think you need to go to the theatre. The last time I went to see something at theatre, it was...

Oh, sorry, very funny. There's just no getting away from that. My diet coke just burbled up. I mean, there's just no getting away from that. My diet coke just burbled up. It was to see a production of Tom Stoppard's Jumpers. It was a very long time ago. Bloody hell, that was a long time ago. About 20 years ago.

What is that about? Well, you tell me. No, I mean, semi-seriously. Is it set in a sweater factory? No. I mean, it didn't seem to be about woolens it didn't seem to be about high buildings i honestly don't know what it was about there was somebody on a swing at some stage i really really loved uh the playwrights and don't laugh at me for saying this because there's no

other way of saying it without it sounding highly pretentious steady yourself against something firm i loved the playwrights of Ancient Greece and Rome, Jane, and I study them a lot because those are great plays. The Medea and stuff like that, I think it's just amazing. But when I've gone to see modern playwrights, I've not been quite so enamoured. And I

just get that itchy bum thing. Do you get that? Oh yeah, but I always have a couple of drinks beforehand and then one in my hand in a plastic cup when it starts. And don't you get jiggly legs? And then don't you suddenly think, how would I get that? Oh, yeah, but I always have a couple of drinks beforehand and then one in my hand in a plastic cup when it starts. And don't you get jiggly legs? And then don't you suddenly think, how would I get out? I just start fantasising about being able to tell people the next day that I've been to the theatre.

Oh, God, help us. Right, or the day before, as it turns out. Or the day of. Yes, and then we can hear all about it on Monday, kids. Yes, because it's not just that this weekend. Oh, actually, no, I lie. I did go and see that. Oh, sorry. No, I went to see That Taste this weekend. Oh, actually, no, I lie. I did go and see that. Oh, sorry.

No, I went to see That Taste of Honey. Oh, right. Well, that's another play. Sheila Delaney. That is supposed to be a classic, isn't it? Yes. It was Sheila Delaney, wasn't it? She was very young and she died very young.

Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't know. Anyway, look, I'm so... She was terribly important, Sheila Delaney. I'm absolutely at the boundary of my theatre going whatever. But look, have a lovely time. No, but you must have seen a panto.

Yes, but that's different, isn't it? Okay. Best celebrity in panto witnessed by you? Oh, that's a good question. Well, we always have been to the Hackney Empire, which had the magnificent Clive Rowe for years and years and years and years. So he was always the star of the show. So actually, I

haven't seen a Nolan in panto or anything like that, have you? I saw Cilla Black in panto at the Liverpool Empire some years ago. Genuinely funny. Yeah. Because the running gag throughout the show was that she was going to sing and every time it looked as though she was going to sing

the audience just shouted, don't sing, Cilla! And it was a fact. It kind of worked because she was completely playing the audience and everybody was giving a lip and she was giving it back. It was funny. And which modern celebrity would you turn out for now in a panto? Genuinely, I thought I would die laughing watching Barry Humphries in

panto not that long ago. Yeah. Probably ten years ago. I know he's died recently. He was cast-iron genius. But who would you want to go and see now? Gosh, I don't... To be honest, I can't imagine that anyone would be better than him. I really can't. Well, I can think of a couple of people who

I'd quite like to see Amanda Holden in panto. She'll give it everything, won't she? Yeah, she's got amazing comedy timing, that one. Yeah, well, why is she doing Panto? I don't know, I'll look into it. Amanda, are you doing Panto? No, I think she's too busy with everything else she's doing.

Probably. I'd watch Alison Hammond do Panto as well. Yeah, well, boy, George is doing Panto this year. Woof. Yes, well, I mean, he's made no bones about it. He's literally, he needs the money. Well, they're all doing it for the ka-ching, aren't they? There's some reason why. He's got some lawsuit or something pending.

Oh, right. So he really does need the money. And he was in the jungle as well, wasn't he? Yes, that's what I mean. Evidence is mounting to suggest he does have some bills. Do you remember when Michael Burke went into the jungle and he was asked about the money and he said uh it's because he needed uh to buy some new double glazing he just thought you should just find we have some quotes make it's just way too expensive i've forgotten about michael burke yeah

he was one of the first kind of serious journalists, way before Krishnan was dancing his spangles off on a Saturday night. And it was quite a big thing that Michael Burke was doing. Yes, you're absolutely right, it was. A celebrity thing. And I think he did all right, didn't he? I think he's a really nice man, so he wasn't kind of in there to pretend to be something.

Oh, wouldn't we like to see the rushes of that show? I think he was one of those blokes who said, I've never seen it. I always find those people impossibly grand when they agree to appear on a show. Of course, I've never seen it. I'm far too busy to watch television, but I'll happily appear on it.

There are quite a few of those around. Yes, Berkey, I've met him. Not as tall as you might think. No, I really like I really like his his programme well I think we might share an agent

oh well maybe if I turn out to the next Christmas party I can sidle up to Michael and tell him that myself yes you might you might just

you might just come across him news in the Daily Mirror today that Fergie as I like to call her Fergie no I've just decided I'm going to become one of those

later life people who just has my own way of pronouncing things. Like Julie Cooper with Jane Austen, I'm going to say Fergie. My mum used to not go to the Kinema. There we are, you see? So there's absolutely nothing. If your mum can do it, it's good enough for me. Anyway, the Daily Mirror breathlessly reports today

that Fergie is in talks with ITV's This Morning to be a guest presenter. Oh, my word. Yeah, she is in conversations with execs. I'd love one of those, wouldn't you? An exec? Well, just a conversation with one. After previously impressing telly bosses

when she joined the Loose Women panel to talk about her breast cancer battle. We wish her well there. And I think she is all right, which is very good news. But I don't know. Do you think it's... I think the old Fergie Fergie brand will be a bit diluted by appearing regularly on this morning?

I think we both know the answer to that is no. Well, it would be watchable, but I'm not sure for the right reason. It's not necessarily watchable. No. But I'd like to see her and Dermot, you know, do a bit of authentic Vance. Oh, I think you might have to wait quite a while for that. Claire says, Fee and Jane, listening to this morning's or yesterday's podcast,

I like the audio segment from Anna Walker. Yeah, don't encourage Anna. She's got a new life now, away from the media. We don't want her to come over here, clomping around. We don't want her being late for those estate agent appointments and the £2.5 million chalet. We don't need her with all her glamour and expertise. Anyway, Claire says,

I loved the audio segment from Anna Walker, following which she made reference to the wonderful Judith Chalmers, and that brought back very vivid memories of growing up in Belfast during the 70s and 80s when wish you were here brought such a welcome and magical relief to the grimness of northern ireland during that period mention of judith charmer's name also stirred a memory of the late great victoria wood and i know you're a fan jane she says when in one of her routines she stated and i'm paraphrasing a little here, I've been in show business so long,

I knew Judith Chalmers before she was brown. It still tickles me. No end, says Claire. Yes, there are so many. She just never, never stops making me laugh. Anyway, Victoria would. And I'm sure I tweeted on the day she died. I just wanted her to know how much pleasure she'd given so, so many of us.

That was the time when I was... She wouldn't have seen the tweet. No, I know. And that's the problem, the idiocy of social media and my compulsion to pay tribute. You know, as you point out, it's utterly pointless. I mean, other people will have seen it,

but what is the point of that? Which is kind of why I don't do it anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I want to come off the X platform too, but I've got a little bit of work to do there first. I know you're doing some work. Right, this one comes from... Undercover.

But under our own name. No, the thing is, it's really not undercover, but I'm very happy to do it. It's about local radio, actually, I think. We can explain it here. Yeah. You may as well explain it. I think the the

very savage cuts to bbc local radio are wrong jane and i know that the bbc has limited resources it's our money we're paying the license fee and they need to make lots of cuts but it just strikes me as a really odd time in the world to cut that community level of journalism because we're all reaching quite high to find our news and you can get it on platforms like x but you don't know the people it's about so it will always be a slightly kind of distorted sound i think and local news when you know the person it's happened to you know the community something's happened to, you know the community something's happened in, you feel connected to it, I think it's just essential. And I think if BBC Local Radio goes, then that's pretty much it. So I'm very happy to do a bit of shouting about that.

I know that they would probably say that they're trying to make inroads into what life might be like without the licence fee, the BBC, aren't they? Or they're trying to imagine what life might be like for the organisation without the licence fee. If Labour win the next election, I'm imagining they won't have to worry too much about that for a while. As much. So it'll be interesting to see whether that changes anything. But absolutely, I mean, I agree with you, because I just think, I mean, on two levels, it's stupid. First of

all, you're right, local news is absolutely vital. Local newspapers don't exist anymore. I guess some local newspapers would say they've partly been put out of business by local radio. That might be true, I guess. But also it's the fact that, you know, local bodies, councils and so on, who is holding them to account? Well, that's what I mean.

They're not all good by any stretch of the imagination, not all good at all. And the other thing is, that's what I mean. They're not all good by any stretch of the imagination, not all good at all. And the other thing is, it's the companionship and proper local knowledge of presenters, which I think is completely irreplaceable. And so the argument is, you know, it can all go online and people are happy to find it there. That doesn't keep you company, does it?

No, and they are happy to find it there, but that doesn't mean, you know mean that they would rather find it there. And until you lose that audio and you count the number of people who go online, you actually don't know how much they're going to miss the audio. So, yes, I think it's very sad and I don't want it to happen, so that's why I'm just on the X for another couple of weeks. Anyway, here we go.

Are you leaving after that? Well, I think so. Because there's something... It's dirty, isn't it? I just can't bear Elon Musk. Yeah. I mean, that's just one reason. I don't want to be on it anymore. Yeah.

But I kind of miss that ability to have a platform to show off. But you've got the Insta. I suppose I've also got this podcast. You've got a podcast and you've got a daily radio programme. How much showing off do you want to do? It's only four days a week. Friday, Saturday and Sunday I have to stand on my roof with a megaphone. On the fifth day she rested.

I think you've got quite a lot of platforms, Jane. You're probably right. But do you think that you have, since coming off Twitter, have you felt the need to show off more? I'm missing the opportunity to be... Isn't that funny? Do you know what exactly... I'm missing the opportunity to be seen

as a right-thinking, liberal individual. OK. Because there's a lot of that on the X, isn't there? There's so much of that. There's horrible right-wing, god-awful crap. And then there's also people who are rushing to what they believe to be the right opinion to make sure that everybody else knows

just how liberal and right-thinking they are. Yes, and how much they care. And how much they bloody care. About Victoria Wood. Yes, but I did care, because hers was the celebrity death that I just wasn't prepared for, which is odd,

because celebrity deaths come and go, don't they? I guess some people just leave more of an impression than others. Yeah, well, I mean, I'll absolutely go back on the Twitter when your time has come and I'll tell everybody how fantastic you are to work with and we'll share some outtakes. Well, very strange. Do you think it'll be called Twitter again?

There's something wrong with my phone because it won't update to X. I've still got the Twitter logo and everything. I'm living in a parallel universe. That's funny. Is your phone from the 1970s? I don't know what's wrong with it. Oh gosh, no. I got a new phone the other day but I had to

take a child with me to the shop to translate. It's always best. I'm a lovely fellas but i had no idea what they were asking me how many jigger yeah all right we'll get to the emails sorry right can i just say a very quick hello to jane because she was very pleased to have written an email to us that mentions the word bosom so many times because she was having problems getting the right size of bra for her bosoms. She says, imagine my delight as I got older when I read that a famous London store would do a bra fitting just by looking at you. It was perfect because she didn't want to go to a shop that was

going to measure her and all of that kind of stuff. Some years later, after I'd sustained my first spinal fracture, I realised I needed a good bra again, so off I went to London, all aglow. I stood in the changing room, half undressed, ready with my apology, only for the assistant to come in, take one look at me, and tell me that the London store no longer did my size, and I left with my tail between my legs and my boobs hanging low. Anyway, it all got better, and she's now got a bra called anita which has been bought

from a small shop near her and she says at the end i'll save my rant on the atrocious care for osteoporosis and ensuing spinal fractures for another time well look jane send us that email yeah do about atrocious care for osteoporosis and ensuing spinal fractures because we'd really like to hear about it and i think osteoporosis is one of those uh really dangerous um is it an illness or a disease condition condition yes yeah i think it's one of those conditions where we really wrongly assume that it's way off in the hinterland of old age and something that we don't maybe need to worry about and talk about and it is one of those conditions that you can definitely help if you address it early on in your life so let's talk about osteoporosis send us that email and i'm delighted that your bosoms

are well supported now i dated a 19 year old when i was 29 says jennifer all great for a while until he stood me up to go skateboarding with his mates and that woke me up yes yes that would that would make me come to my senses i think i mean obviously jennifer had planned a quiet evening at an art gallery uh for the two of them and and he was he was going skateboarding. It's quite sweet. Now, can we just clear this up? It's from Camilla, who got a message from her sister this morning saying, why the slightly snarky comment about Sussex Jane? They're discussing the podcast on WhatsApp group.

Yes, no, I think I was just being, it was just a throwaway remark. Was it? I've been to Uckfield. Did you have a nice time there, Jane? I just a throwaway remark. Was it? I've been to Uckfield. It is. Did you have a nice time there, Jane? I had a time, certainly. Happy memories.

I've been to Uckfield. Do you want to share with the group? Absolutely not. Can we just go back to age gap relationships? Yes. Because this is an interesting one for my listeners. What is your reaction when there's an 11-year age gap between two women, which is the case between me and my partner? I don't remember the Russian gymnast you referenced,

Olga Corbett, but she does. However, there isn't much we don't share or have to talk about, like bagpuss and the clangus, and we have a shared approach to parenting. Sorry. In relation to being cared for, I've had ME for 12 years, and my partner has looked after me since I was 43, as well as our autistic daughter. My partner is now 68. I am 56. I appreciate an 11 year gap isn't the biggest, but I'm interested whether this feels different because it's two women. And you know, the honest answer is it does. because it's two women and you know the honest answer is it does it does feel different why well i'm trying to i'm just being honest it feels different and i don't judge it and i don't get in any way arsy about it i think actually to be fair an 11 year age gap between a heterosexual

couple wouldn't bother me either um and also it's it's that what annoyed what started all this off was dolly alderton commenting on the pressure on women of around mid-30s and slightly older to constantly procreate when men of a similar vintage have all the time in the world so they don't face the pressure. And so you cannot compare that situation to an 11-year age gap between two women.

Yes, and I think the thing that I struggle with is an intergenerational relationship. That's what I find makes me uncomfortable. Yeah. So when somebody is young enough to be their daughter or old enough to be their father, I find that just difficult. Yeah, I would too.

Do you think the tipping point might be 20 years whereas 10 11 12 we wouldn't know i think we're good up to 14 let's just say that up to 14 years we're good off air says an age gap of 40 well um let's bring in robert um i'm a long-time listener with my wife my lovely wife rona is nearly 20 years older than myself. I'm 40, she is 59. We never struggle for conversation and the Olympic anecdotes have never come between us. She is the only person whose company I never tire of. She is my world.

Age is just a number if your soulmate is involved. So I do understand that. And of course, you know, not everybody has a slightly dubious intent or, you know, whatever it is, if they're falling in love with someone who is young enough to be one of their children. But I suppose it plays into the worrying trope that some people do.

Yeah. That's all it is. I think that is it. Shall we get to our guest? Because it's quite a meaty interview today, isn't it? And people might want to save some of their strength for it. Yes, and we have briefly discussed it, I think, in yesterday's podcast, haven't we? Yeah.

Do you want to say anything more? Well, I'm going to read the cue, a technical term there, but I think everybody's across it. That means introduction, everybody. Just because you do need to know a couple of facts, actually, before we hear about the life of Castor Semenya. So she has a difference in sex development, DSD, which is an umbrella term referring to the varying genetic conditions where an embryo responds in a different way

to the hormones that spark the development of internal and external sexual organs. So it happens right at the very beginning of life. In Caster's case, this means that she doesn't have a uterus, but she does have internal testes. They don't produce sperm and she has no other male sexual organs. She has a higher than female average testosterone level. And all of this she didn't know until she was examined by two doctors in Germany whilst competing in the Berlin World Championships in 2009. She was only 18 years old.

And as she says in her book, it's affected me in ways I cannot describe, although I will try. And in The Race to Be Myself, which is the name of her book, she says that I want everyone to understand that despite my condition, even though I am built differently than other women, I am a woman. She also acknowledged that the biological makeup of her body, the way she looks on the outside and the way she lives her life,

she's married to a woman and they've got two children, is a crossing of lines in many people's minds. But just FYI, she is currently awaiting the outcome of her case to run without any medical interventions. And that's things like the medical lowering of her testosterone levels. And she has taken that case to the European Court of Human Rights, the IAAF and the Swiss Supreme Court have ruled that she can't compete without those interventions. So those are all the facts that you need to know. and we started where her

book starts in her childhood in a rural village in Limpopo, the northernmost province in South Africa. Yeah, going back it's like reliving those memories coming from a small village called Amastlon. Amastlon. It's just far west of Polokwane. It's very nice and easy, you know, dusty. I grew up in a place where, you know, we didn't have running water, we didn't have, you know, electricity. I'll say it was a dark city. But yeah, I think it was great. Great upbringing. You know, you grow up with love. You know, you grow up with support. You feel, you know, welcomed.

They show you appreciation. They appreciate you to an extent where you, you know, you don't have to worry about anything. When you have parents that raise you for who you are, without questions, you know, without judging you, they don't criticize, you know, what you do. They just want you to be happy. I think growing up, you know, in a rural area, you know, versus the urban, because the rural areas, you just, you know, live life based on what is around you. You make use of whatever is around you. You make use of whatever

is around you. I grew up in the bush, hunting with my cousins. We had livestock. Farming that side is way different because we do it ourselves, regardless of boys and girls. Responsibilities are not measured by

you are a girl, you should be doing this. It's something that, you know, comes in you. If you feel like you can do it, you do it. Tell us what it feels like when you run. And when you were younger and you knew that you were sporting, you talk about the strength that you felt in your body. Of course.

I think growing up I play football with my male cousins. I remember in the villages we don't have women's soccer. We mixed up and for me being able to go across my male cousins

and making sure that I score goals regardless of, I think that's where you start measuring yourself, you know, from them and you to say, you know what, if I'm able to play football like this, if I'm able to hunt with them, being able to be successful in them, you know, I think I can be a good, you know, superstar.

One day maybe I will make it, you know, in the world. I think for me, I always had it in the world I think for me I always had it in me I always believed that I'm destined to do great it does not matter where I'm coming from but at the end of the day it came with what I believed in and I made it work and I never stopped so you come from this place where you've been completely accepted and loved for exactly who you are and you've had that kind of freedom but as you say when you come when you came to the city and you got a scholarship to the University of Pretoria a prejudice comes with that doesn't it yeah of course but take us to that place where you've become a national sporting champion you're doing incredibly well in your athletics training now and a psychologist

is sent to see you what happened and what did the psychologist say that they were there to do the psychologist to be honest um she didn't do much she was more for telling me about when you start doing good you know people talk you know I I think she didn't want to just tell me exactly what was happening. She just wanted to just prepare me to say, you know what, there's something in front of you, you understand, but I didn't know what she was talking about. But had anybody before that time, and where are we? I think we're 2008, 2009 by now. Has anybody around you questioned your gender in a direct way to you?

No, there's no one who will come to me and question if I'm a woman or not. You understand? No, never. You know, I've done sports, you know, beautifully. I've enjoyed, you know, my teenage life in sports. I've represented the country, you know, several times. I've done IAAF, you know, sanctioned meets, like World Junior Championships. I was never asked if I'm a boy or what, you understand?

You did know, though, that your periods hadn't started, for example. Yeah, of course, of course. I know that. I have understood myself, you know, know from early age understood how i am and obviously the developments of uh being a girl i questioned that you know to to my parents i'm like to my mom like um i'm seeing that i'm almost 12 13 you know i've been you know a you know periods I've been developed breast and she'd be like maybe you it will come because sometimes you know in life there's early developers and the late developers I suppose you you you ain't a

lady Pelopon but obviously for me I discovered that later on you know when I get into the well spot so that you know what you know, when I get into the world sports. So that, you know what, you're a different woman, of course. I knew I'm a different woman, but I just didn't know how different I was. So take us to that room then in Berlin. So you'd be competing in the world championships in the 800 meters. You dominated and won the semifinal. And you were then told that a doctor needed to see you to do a test. So what happened then?

No, I arrived at this hospital. In my mind, it's like, okay, I'm just going through a random, you know, test that they've done, you know, during the heats. You know, now the same as they do the same thing. But, you know, after that, they tell me that I must be evaluated. I'm like, no, I don't have a problem, you know, with being evaluated because at the end of the day, there's nothing for me to hide. And I got into the room and then obviously they started, you know, evaluating me.

But, you know, there comes a part where they come with, you know, their instrument, whatever objects that they want to use, and be like, ask them, what are you going to use that for? What are you going to do with that? So they wanted to do an internal examination? Yeah, they wanted to do internal, you know, inspections. I'm like, you're not going to do that. I'm not going to let anyone violate me to that extent.

I know my right. I might be young, I'm not stupid, but that anger, you're not going to do that. Did you have anyone in that room with you? No, no, no, no. It was just two doctors. It was just two doctors. One was a male, one was a female. You understand?

And I'm like, the only way for you to do that, you're going to go behind. You understand? Because, look, I love myself. I respect myself to an extent where I do things, you know, with my consent. But if you're going to do that, no. We're going to fight then, you know.

I'm a hunter. And, you know, it was that awkward, you know, moment where I could see that they look at each other. They start speaking English. I said, oh, now you speak English. All this time you have been speaking, you're German, talking, talking. I couldn't even understand what you were saying, you understand? And that's where, you know, I started realizing that people in life, they can go extant to make sure that you don't belong.

They make you feel you're not welcome. They make sure that you hate the sport that you're doing. But with me, I think I already knew, you know, what I was getting into. I had to do what I had to do, you know, to survive, you know, that situation. So you know what, I'm here to run. I'm going to do what I'm here to do. So they do the examination, and this will go out at about 3.30 in the afternoon. So there's not a huge amount that I don't know how to phrase this. noon so there's not a huge amount that i don't know how to phrase this really they do the examination but it's not a vaginally penetrative examination but what they find is that you have internal testes within your body if you may say that yes yeah the real time that's that's what

they use so did they did they just say that at the time to you? How did they impart to you such an important thing about your body? For me, remember, I'm 18 years of age. I don't really care about people publicising anything about me. To me, it doesn't really matter. You have to understand, for me, I'm here to compete. If you're going to be trying to use any kind of strategies to diminish me, to try to ashame me, it will not work because at the end of the day,

I left South Africa. It's like a 10-hour flight. I'm not going to waste my energy on negativity. You understand? And for me, I, you know, they've done that the day of the final because when I got to the track I could see, you know, there's something going on. I can see, you know,

people are looking at me, you know, I'm like, what's going on? You know, and you look at the people that you're going to compete with, they're going to treat you like that, you know what I'm saying? They look at you like, I don't know if they fear you, or they're scared, or they're seeing a ghost. Even when the president of our federation, you know,

sent the vice president to me to say, go talk to her, maybe try to get sense into her mind. But then I only had a question to them, say, look, I did not come this far to fail. I did not come this far to fail my nation, you know, my country. I'm going to compete. I told them, if I'm going to stop,

then IAAF to come drag me off the track. Yeah, so the IAAF, as it was then, do you believe that they deliberately released the results about the tests? Yeah, it was deliberate because they thought by leaking the results, then I'll know and then I'll not want to run because, you know, I'll be ashamed to go there. I'm just new, I'm just young, you know, be like, be scared to run or anything. No, such thing don't scare me. young, you know, be like, be scared to run or anything. No, such thing don't scare me.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone Casta Semenya is our guest this afternoon I asked her about DSD and this is the condition that she has and I asked her if there was ever a moment when she thought that she may be different from other people on the track because of her levels of testosterone. I never felt like I'm different from them as much as I understood that this is just a condition that I'm born with. I believe that each and every individual has their own condition, you know, that they are born with, you understand. The difference that it makes is that I just have, you know, a disorder in my body.

So that's the only difference I have. And when I look into it, I'm like, okay, if these guys are saying I have unfair advantage, so if I have, if I had unfair advantage, I'll be running, you know, 141, just like any other man, you understand? Because as much as they say I'm born a man, a man runs men's time, not a woman's time, you understand?

Yeah, but is there a physiological difference in that your body, when it went through puberty, may have changed in a different way that does give you more advantage? So that's about lean muscle mass isn't it and cardiovascular capacity and those things no no i've never discovered any any of such because for me the only time you change that's when you train you understand each and every individual develop all those changes through training getting Getting into the university, starting to train hard, that's when I started developing muscle because I do high-intensity program. You do not develop muscle because you have high testosterone level.

No, there are people, there are men who have no muscle. There are women with no muscle. There are women with muscle, you understand. So the athletics world wouldn't see it like that, would they? So you came to an agreement in order to be able to carry on running women with muscles you understand so the athletics world wouldn't see it like that would they so you came to an agreement in order to be able to carry on running that you would reduce your testosterone through taking the contraceptive pill now millions of women across the world taking the contraceptive pill will have sympathy with what you then found which is it can make you feel terrible yeah of course of course but remember with that

situation um it was our option it was not awf's choice or any option coming from them they wanted us to do a surgery can you be specific about what kind of surgery they wanted i really didn't know because i didn't really bother about asking because when my legal team mentioned surgery, I was like, no, I don't even want to know. But there must be other options. But only to know that now it will be, you know, removal or something like that, you understand, which is I'll never do that. I'm happy with my body. It's not the case that I'm not going to then i'll let it be you understand because i'm not going to alter my body for someone to validate me into competition or someone to accept me i told them

look there must be other option and then my gynecologist you know came up with the option to say look uh because this is the other option but it's not good for your body because it's not designed for that you understand and i'm like what taking taking the pill and i was like look for me with the desperation of running i've just ran one championship i still want to do olympics i can do that even if it's to risk my health um fees point about the contraceptive pill presumably lots of other female competitors were also taking the contraceptive pill i don'tably lots of other female competitors were also taking the contraceptive pill. I don't know about that.

I mean, I think they were, because apart from anything else, if you take the pill consistently, you won't get periods, which is a lot easier. I don't know on that, because remember, on my side, I only focus on, you know, my situation.

I don't really go into who's taking what. It is important in your book, I mean, obviously South Africa is. Of course. There couldn't be a more blatant illustration of racism than South Africa. Yeah, of course. So what about the impact of racism

on the way you were treated? No, it's huge because, you know, you feel way discriminated, you feel segregated from, you know, women's spots, especially particular women. Because now, if you look into it, you know, women's spots, especially particular women, because now if you look into it, you create hate amongst women, you understand? That's the hateful speech,

when you start calling a woman a man and then you start influencing other women to hate one, to say, no, look at her, she's not a woman, she's not that. Of course, it does impact me and it takes me back to where I'm coming from as a South African, especially if it's done by British, you know, human.

You understand? We have a history, you know, coming from apartheid era. And then the very same British people, they do the same thing. You know, it does not involve every British individual, but one individual or two start

following the very same footsteps. For me, it makes me feel like, you know what, if you're going to treat me like that, why don't you just tell me that you don't want me into sports? Just tell me straight, like, look, Kirsten Semenya, we don't want you and your companion that are coming fromya, we don't want you and your companion

that are coming from Africa, we don't want you to do sports. This situation affects most of African women and Asian. And I respect when you talk about

equality in sports, but if you're going to talk about the equality or you're leveling the play, you can never level the play

because when we talk genetics, people are, you know, they vary, they differ. The same as in men's sports. You can't come into men's sports and say because you have got fast twitch muscles, you have slow twitch muscles. People are born with their differences. We respect that.

But if you only have on the podium athletes who have DSD and you have other competitors who genuinely feel disadvantaged by that what should those competitors understand in order for it not to turn out into a terrible kind of hate fight? I think they need to understand that it's not that that person's fault that they are born like that as much as everyone has their own differences

here we speak the language of sports where we say sports is for all sports is for all women we don't say sports is only for women who who who are born normal we say sports is for women because women we all differ we all have our own differences you understand for me i'll appreciate it if you just respect people for who they are, accept them for who they are. And that's what I understand about the language of sports and having a good sportsmanship. Rather than disrespecting them to that extent,

you run with them, you shake their hands, you love with them, you love with them, and then you socialise with them, but then you go do interviews that are opposite than what you perceive to be on the track. For me, it's a huge disappointment. So you come off the track and people only want to talk about DSD and gender. They don't want to talk about your athleticism.

And you do say, and I think it was after the 2016 Games, where you had some particularly, well, you were sidelined, weren't you, by some of the other competitors after one of your races. And you say in the book, they don't know when something is bigger than their individual smallness. But I would just ask you uh we will have people listening castor and you know this who will have listened to absolutely everything that you've said in the way that you've talked about where you come from what you've achieved and they will

still be thinking she doesn't have the right to compete in female sport and i wonder i know it shouldn't be on you to change everybody's mind, but you've written this book and I know that you want to. So what's the thing that you can say that would change that perception and that mind? I think for me, it's only a very simple thing. I don't have to change someone's mind. And I still repeat that I need no validation, you know, to know one, to no one to feel

accepted or anything but one thing I can say to each and every individual who's listening is that in life we're living a temporary life we shouldn't be wasting those moments for being negative or for

trying to judge because we're not the ones to judge you understand we are given life to live we should be the reflection of God as much as it says you should love you should support you should accept people for who they are they don't need to change their mind I don't expect them to do that I just want to make them aware of those differences in life to say we accept you for who you are it does not matter the colour of your skin, where you're coming from, how you look like, how you're born.

I know that you don't think that you have any relevance from your own personal experience that you could use in the trans athletes debate. But people want to conflate those two things all the time, don't they? Yeah. I think that those are two different situations where you look into our situation with DSD.

We are women who are born with differences, you know, sexual differences. But when we talk about the trans, you know, gender issue, it's where you come from, you know, the gender you're born with transitioning to another gender, which is I have no hate about it. I love them. I love them for who they are. But obviously, I don't regulate the sports,

but I sympathize with them. And for me, I don't really have a problem with them competing. So I think we just have to draw a line in terms of how we address people with respect. I think that comes first, where we say human rights come first. If each and every individual can be treated with that, I think we'll have a same line and sit down and discuss these situations to see how we move forward in terms of, you know, the diverse inclusivity. But isn't it unfair? I mean, you're a hugely successful competitor. You enter a race to win. So isn't it unfair for a person who's been assigned a woman at birth

and has run as a woman all of their life to be competing against somebody who did have a testosterone advantage through a male body when they were young? Those are difficult things, aren't they? I can't say anything about fairness and unfairness because for me it would be biased if I comment on a situation like this. What I can say is that I know how to be different. I know how to feel treated with rejection, you understand.

So for me, if I were to comment on that, I'm not the right person to do that because it should be someone with transgender, you know, to be answering into that situation. But for me, at this moment, I can only answer for my situation because I think that's what I do best, you know, understand myself better because of the situations that have I endured. Where are you legally at the moment? There have been an awful lot of courts that have looked at your case.

So there's been the IAAF, there's been the European Court of Human Rights, there's been the Swiss High Court. Where are you in terms of all of those things at the moment? Yeah, we're still waiting for the High Chamber to decide, you know decide on the ruling. And that's the European Court. The European Court.

And obviously with IAAF, the battle is still on. I believe that, of course, we will still go back to the Court of Arbitration to still argue the matter. But yeah, I feel positive about the work that I do. you know, to still argue the matter. But yeah, I feel positive about the work that I do. Kasta Semenya, and her book is called The Race to Be Myself, and it's out now.

And she feels, doesn't she, that she is in, well, she seemed very at ease with herself. And I think there's a lot of troubling content in that book. I mean, the most awful of which is that time when she was still in her teens and put in that situation where she was on her own in a medical examination with two people speaking a language she didn't understand yes and what they were going to give her what they were going to do to her yeah i mean a penetrating internal examination which she didn't know anything about well so she walked into the room yeah i mean i feel i find that somebody should have explained it to her somebody from the south african sporting

authority should have been with her yeah uh i find all that really really disturbing and i think for the information to then have made it into the public domain you know to to what end really you do have to ask a question about that uh didn't give her enough time to settle for herself in her mind the massive change that she had just been told about yeah um so there's all of that i mean what comes after and obviously we'd love to hear your thoughts about this, is such a difficult story because of course there are female competitors on the track who have been very vociferous in why they don't want any woman with DSD to be competing alongside of them because of what they perceive to be an unfair advantage and it will all always come down to what your definition of a woman is which is what uh you know culturally we're struggling with at the moment um i think there would be a real problem for the athletics authorities if there were another if there were a repeat of what happened in 2016 when all three on the podium at the 800 metres

were female competitors with DSD. Now, there's nothing those competitors could have done about that. They have it, and that's that. It's like saying, why is Jane Garvey five foot one and a half? You know, that's it, isn't it? There's nothing I can do about it, there's nothing they can do. But you do sense that that is something that it's, frankly, it challenges a lot of our, well, the certainties we cling to about our sex. I think that's just

one of the things that, actually, in a way, I think it just makes too many people uncomfortable because they're not, I don't it's it troubles a lot of people and there is no doubt that casta like most athletes actually like most professional sports people is single-minded fairly self-regarding because you have to be because you can't actually afford to think too much about anybody else and i'm not sure whether people listening to that interview will be won over by her or not, if I'm honest. I don't know. I'll be into it. I mean, please, tell us what you think.

I think the point that she does make in the introduction to the book is that she never considered herself to be entering a world where she expected to be liked. So it's not about being liked when you're on the track. It's about winning the race. No, it's about winning. And also, she was from a desperately poor background from a country that didn't have the same capabilities as others to help her through

what lay ahead for her and I just think there are a lot of people making money out of her success. And also she did have this incredible childhood which she describes as free where she could be whoever she wanted to be and was very much a tomboy you know really really didn't want to hang with the girls look like the girls be with the girls well she says doesn't she

that she was excused all the dreary domestic tasks yes she went hunting girls were routinely expected to do so she did all of that but nobody ever said, and that means that you are a boy. Everybody accepted and loved her for being Casta Semenya, a girl who displayed an awful lot of male likes and dislikes.

So you can see why that's your world, that's your identity. You come into another world which says, well, you can't have that. You can't have those two things going on. So, look, there is loads and loads to talk about. And I fully understand, as Jane has already said, that there's quite a lot of challenging stuff that we have to bend our minds around. And we'd love to hear your thoughts about it.

So it is the usual address, janeandfeeatimes.radio. Now, Josie, she just wants to express her slight indignation about Montague Don. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, this is just her view, not ours. Could he be more arrogant and more out of touch with modern gardening? His patronising remark that even a woman could these days

host a gardening show on the BBC really got up my garden shears. Even a lady? I don't think... Is that quite what he said? I don't remember him saying that. He did say that actually, Jane. He did say that some women are quite good at gardening. Oh, Carol Klein has presented gardening shows for donkey's ears on the BBC, hasn't

she? I've been talking to Bunny Guinness on air for about 30 years, haven't you? I love that name. Bunny Guinness. Josie just got, she's uh is it gardeners question time yes yeah uh which is on over on the other uh some of the best gardeners in the world um are in america says josie and on that note some of the greatest gardeners in the world are women from britain people like gertrude jekyll uh vitaita Constance, Vita Sackville-West,

I do apologise, yes, I know her, Marjorie Fish, well, not personally, Beth Chad, Vita, yes. Before I moved to East West Kensington, I was a member of the Bloomsbury set. Everybody knows that. Other names in her particular horticultural frying pan, Gertrude jekyll

uh constance villiers stewart and indeed she does mention carol klein so we take your point and have you got a briefly i just wanted to mention jill uh wants to say about jilly cooper i dip into harriet written many years ago it's the story of an oxford student who's dumped by a cad and then goes to work as a nanny for the children of a famous writer in darkest Yorkshire. It's my favourite pick-me-up, says Jill. OK. I was surprised, actually, we didn't have a large postbag about Jilly. But maybe that'll come in over the weekend.

Well, sometimes people, they're not as... It's almost like they've got lives. Don't be ridiculous. Yeah, you're right. Of course they do. Right, so join us again at the beginning of next week to hear all the fun of the theatre as Jane will... Oh, and Cliff on Sunday night. Oh, God. Right.

Well, I need some strength for that. Maybe you do too. Jane and Fia at Times Talk Radio. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings, otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at 3 o'clock Monday until Thursday every week, and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day,

as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone