Off Air... with Jane and Fi - That's another nut going down (with Deborah Meaden)

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Jane and Fi are recovering from an almost on-air crisis that nearly happened but didn't. They're joined by Deborah Meaden, to talk about her new book "Why Money Matters" - part of the Little Experts series. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well, we've had a bit of a funny one, haven't we? Oh, don't apologise for that. Nothing will ever be as funny as that guy being dragged out of BBC reception and interviewed on News 24. Oh, no, don't. Poor little face, I remember. He tried so hard to please as well. It was just heartbreaking.

So for people who've never seen that clip uh there was a lovely guy who had reported to television reception to pick somebody up because he was a driver and he got ushered into the news 24 on our studio and asked to comment about the invasion of Iraq wasn't it no I don No, I don't think it was Iraq. It was something to do with Hollywood or something. No, it was a piece of major geopolitical stuff. Oh, was it? Yes. Well, people can go on the Google and you'll find him. Anyway, why were you talking about this?

Oh, because we almost had... The wrong guest. We had a wrong guest klaxon, but in fact we had the right guest all along. So we almost cancelled the right guest because we thought it was the wrong guest, but it was the right guest. And it was very good. Quite complicated that, isn't it?

So it was something that nearly happened, but didn't. Well, story of your life. Now, a bit harsh. Best wishes, Rachel. Hello, Jane and Fee. I almost emailed last week, but it was mentioned again as I caught up on Fingers in the Cream. I thought today is the day.

What is that? Fingers in the Cream. No, that must have been the name of one of our podcasts. It was. Oh, was it? Sorry, that's another nut going down. I never look at them. When has either of us said Fingers in the Cream?

I did when I was eating that. Oh, the bun. Incredible. It was a long brioche bun. It reminded me, it took me right back to my childhood because the cream was double cream that had been whipped up with lots of sugar and it was utterly delicious. Anyway, there you go.

It's the way it was smoothed overed over wasn't it so it didn't have those kind of whirly whirlies that you always get it was like um snow on my artificial grass before anyone has patted across it yeah anyway sorry rachel we digress rachel says i have a margo she's seven named after the good life when i got pregnant i joked that they would be called either jerry or margo and margo stuck the good life must have been rerun all through the 1980s as i just looked it up and it ended before i was born so isn't that funny slightly yeah well it's a really big thing now uh rachel says i live in Stoke Newington, which is in North London. Margot is a peak Stokey name.

Is it? I bet it is, Rachel. I bet it is. And Rachel says, enjoying the taxidermy on Insta. And I'm pleased to share that I've already read My Sister the Serial Killer, which I really enjoyed, which is a fantastic link, because we are launching book club number two. And that is the book that we are all reading we've just done a little bit of insta content uh don't get excited it's us just saying this but with pictures uh it couldn't be less exciting yes the book is by a yinka braithwaite it's called my sister the serial killer it's a slimmer volume than valerie perrin's and we hope you really enjoy it and send us all of your thoughts if you could just

put a book club in the title of the email that definitely helps send it in the right direction and we'll be discussing it in five weeks time and you were so brilliant with Fresh Water for Flowers and you know we want to hear from you if you've loved it and we honestly also want to hear from people who were a bit indifferent or people who disliked it intensely yeah but do tell us why as well because because it's not very nice, and especially for the author, actually, because you've got to be thinking that the author will probably have a bit of a listen to a book club

where their book is featured. So if you don't like it, do tell us why. And a shout-out to Caroline, who sent us a picture of herself reading the book. I mean, she's so ahead of the game, it's just not true, in beautiful Santorini in Greece. Oh, have you ever been to Santorini? I have, a couple of times.

Yeah, me too, it's lovely, isn't it? It gets ever so busy at that beautiful place at sunset, doesn't it? It's probably, at the moment, at its busiest, I would imagine, Santorini. But Caroline looks as though she's got herself a very secluded spot there. She's in one of those pools, what's it called? An infinity pool. It looks like it might be an infinity pool. Anyway, Caroline, I'm incredibly jealous when I see that. I really am. A rather cheeky email from Susan who just says hello as you read all the emails. So she's just put hello and expects to be read out. Well, all right, I've done it. Okay. but don't nobody else try that because it also is trying to catch us out suggesting that we may not read all the emails but then as i turn the page um there is a further email from susan who might be the hello susan i don't know who introduce

introduces herself i think it is actually and tells us much more about her so i take back everything i've just said she says she's a retired homeopath and a retired c of e priest although you never fully retire from that i don't suppose you know homeopathy no the church of england who knows when somebody might come knocking on the door looking for some solace from the church of england uh she's also a poet the owner of two miniature schnauzers, one of whom is called Nancy, a co-mum, a co-granny, and she lives in Doncaster. You've got a lot going on. Well, I love you if you've got a schnauzer called Nancy.

Yeah, well, exactly. Something just come to mind, she says quite randomly. She had the heads of her tulips snapped off a couple of years ago and put it down to birds and it hasn't happened since because that happened to me and weirdly susan it only happened to me once is it crop circles mark two so crop circles did end up being revealed to just be farmers having a love yeah but they did they all get together i don't they send a secret message via the National Farmers Union, come on, let's take the mickey out of gullible peeps. Yeah, I don't believe that either. And once again, because I'm not a member of the mainstream media,

I just want to say it's all gone very quiet on those vehicles that they talked about at those congressional hearings, the ones that the aliens had brought with them. We were told they had them in a locker. They've had lots of looks at them. They did it at the congressional hearings about four weeks ago. Have you heard anything since? No.

What do you think's going on? Well, I mean, as you know, I've been more cynical about the alien invasion than you. And John Pienaar, although we've not seen him for a couple of weeks, is he on holiday or has he been abducted? I think he might have been taken. Yeah. Yeah. And I tell you what, if anyone is a farmer and did a crop circle now or knows someone who did now would be a very good time to tell us why and whether or not it was in collusion with other

farmers i am genuinely interested in that because i really wanted to believe in some kind of gravitational force when they were at their height. Well, you can't be snooty about me wanting to believe in a crop circle when you, A, live for the apocalypse, work that one out, and B, are fully invested in the alien invasion. Yeah, I guess it was fair enough. And I just want to mention Lucy. I did actually read out your...

No, it wasn't you, Lucy. I do apologise. I'll get on to Lucy in a moment. This is Susie. Who's done Susie? This is another... That was... No, that was Susan.

And then I've got a Susie who's next. When I've done... No, I'm not doing Lucy next. I am doing Susie because I read her email out in the radio show because she just wanted to know what my prediction is for the match tomorrow. Two weeks off, everyone. Yes, darling, yes.

Yes, and I said 2-0 earlier because I got a very clear message from the other side. Oh, God, not your prediction. No, that's all I'm doing. I'm just mentioning it again. But in Susie's email, she goes on to say that she's 70 years old, wears dungarees, and this is a hell of a way to introduce herself. She's a soccer fan with keyhole incontinence. Do you know what that is?

Keyhole incontinence? Well, is it the same as my double locking problem? She says, I start to desperately need to and sometimes do pee the moment I put my key in my front door well you see you laughed at my double locking thing but it's but it's an actual thing because when you get as far as the front door you've been slightly bursting uh you know all the way up to the front door and you put your key in the lock and something happens to your pelvic floor it just you know it descends so I'm with you I didn't realize it had such a glorious term but I shall use that from here on in well interestingly Susie mentions that she when

she was at school in Australia she played the game I mistakenly called vigaro it's actually vigaro and netball although it was called basketball here in the 60s all this makes me feel very much a part of your listening family and while I have never ridden a penny farthing, I do remember my mother wearing, on grand occasions, her fox stole. See picture above. Yes, thank you for that. Still very frightening. It looks so real and it really grossed me out. She also said that she really hopes that we do visit Australia

at some point in the future. It's not looking good. No, it isn't looking... By the way, I mean nothing bad towards Australians. I just really hope that they don't win tomorrow. This time tomorrow, we'll know. Yeah. This is from someone called Echo.

Isn't that a lovely, lovely name? Lovely, lovely name. Yeah, I was trying to think what the gag was there. Do you think perhaps they's named after... They're named after Echo Falls, the popular wine brand. Echo Falls, the popular wine brand. Or Echo Beach, the great song by Martha and the Muffins. Or Echo and the Bunnymen. Well, yes, that's also possible.

Well, it's a lovely name, actually. I don't think I would have ever been brave enough to call either of my kids Echo. And I wonder what the best joke is that Echo has heard and then heard again more faintly. Hello, Jane and Fee. You've got to laugh at other people's jokes at some stage, Jane. I listen to you most days on Times Radio as I go about my job delivering the mail in Ottawa, Canada. The peacock story today made me laugh and cry. You see, I'm actually from the UK,

but I've been living in Canada for over 20 years. My parents live on the Castle Howard estate in Yorkshire. Oh, how nice. I know. And for the last however many years, I've had a peacock visit their garden on most days. My mother named him Percy, and I think for a while a female showed up, and she got the name Priscilla.'s my mom's name every day they feed him scrapes of old bread and leftovers but his absolute favorite is dry cat food but here's the bummer after 43 years living in their house they're now making the move to a smaller more manageable house in york it's very hard for everyone saying goodbye to a family home and i feel especially sad because whenever i think of home, it's there.

Whenever I go back to visit, it's just the same as when I left a year or two before. And then there's Percy the peacock. Who's going to feed him his cat biscuits when they're gone? And Echo, you have attached a picture so that we can see Percy in all his glory. I mean, you just have to say with peacocks, bloody show-offs. I mean, imagine being able to do that with your tush. It's mind-boggling, isn't it? They have really got it going on.

It's just extraordinary. It's like something, even the best drag artists couldn't come up with anything like that, could they? You're absolutely right. It is a bird doing RuPaul. That's kind of how it feels. Yeah, it's absolutely exceptional. And while we're

talking about things that were exceptional, what about the size of that bloke's marrow? So we did have a guest this afternoon. It was actually quite a serious and interesting item about diabetes and how we must all do our best to, if we can, avoid type 2 diabetes. Yeah. Yeah. And our guest was a man called Gerald, who'd been given some, you know, some slightly bad news by his local health centre that he just needed to shift a few pounds. But I think he was already growing giant veg.

Well, you put me on to him because I didn't realise that he was an Instagram sensation with his absolutely enormous brassicas. Yeah. But he has been displaying quite a lot of giant veg and who doesn't love giant veg jane uh nobody i wonder whether are they actually good in taste terms if we could

have interviewed we could have talked to him for hours on end yeah we could um do you need to do something special to grow giant vegetables um do they taste the same or is the taste somehow not as good because it's less concentrated well i i would have ones are more juicy yeah i would have thought that yeah that absolutely the latter and also if you think about a marrow by comparison to a courgette i mean a marrow is a tasteless thing it's horrible so you wouldn't want one small large or medium sized would you but a decent carrot that properly tastes of carrot is a beautiful thing well maybe we can get gerald back on and he can tell us more and also he just had the most beautiful beautiful a quite a kind of old-fashioned voice slow deep dependable and when he started describing the measurements on all of his various vegetables.

And it was then, I'm sorry to say, that the word, the entirely reasonable word, girth, was used. And that's always one of those, it's a trigger word, isn't it? We have to accept it. That people just go a bit silly when they hear that. Anyway. Well, I think we managed to keep the interview going very sensibly, actually. It's a drink. Our combined age is nearly 118 i thought we were actually really very sensible have you seen the email from lucy uh which one well she's well yes lucy is well actually you see and later in the week we're talking about names with sheila banerjee because she's written i think it's a really

interesting book uh it's called what's in a Name and it's just about everything that happens when you tell someone your name because it marks you out it doesn't matter what your name is it carries with it a certain weight and her name is an interesting one and for a start she's called Sheila, which, as she says, is a name she associates with older white women. And she isn't older and she isn't white. And so it's just a it's just a really interesting surprise, if I'm honest, a surprisingly interesting book about names. Anyway, that's later in the week. That's on Thursday afternoon. But let's just get back to Lucy, who says, I was listening to your chat about gun carrying in the US and it sent me down memory lane to when I was in my 20s back in the early 2000s and I was in a bit of a strange time in my life long story short I was working as a stripper traveling the

world chasing cash a convoluted series of events which I won't get into now found me being discharged from a Crete jail, where I'd spent the weekend dressed in only a bikini and seven-inch stilettos, with several other strippers, in various degrees of undress. Once released, I was straight onto a plane to Texas. This was a month or so after the 9-11 attacks, so the world had become a very different place very suddenly. Between the jigs and the reels, I found myself working in a club in a little town called Waco. Yes, that Waco. That was a strange place. There were us girls doing our thing on the stage, rodeo on the big screen,

a group of Baptists that would come in each lunchtime to look at boobs and save our souls, and alongside the regular cloakroom, a room to store your gun. Anyway, mad times. Quite different from my quiet life now. Guess where she is? I've got no idea. Don't worry, everybody. She's in rural West Cork, training as a psychotherapist.

Whoa. I bet you'd be a good one, Lucy. I really do. I think we could do with another email from Lucy. Yes. Did you actually have to spend the weekend in jail wearing nothing but a bikini and some stilettos? I really do I think we could do with another email from Lucy Yes Did you actually have to spend the weekend in jail Wearing nothing but a bikini and some stilettos Well I suppose in Crete you wouldn't be that cold

But then when you got on the plane to go to Texas They must have wrapped you up in something You would imagine Yes And yes I mean just stripping for Baptists Who've left their guns at the door I do love that line.

What a maelstrom of morality that is, Jane. Gave it to save our souls and look at boobs. And look at boobs. No offence to Baptists or Texas. This one comes... Emma says, loved the interview with Liz O'Riordan. My husband is a junior surgeon and Liz very accurately describes the pressures on him and his colleagues. However, worth saying that male surgeons have families too and face the same issues with childcare if they want to be involved fathers.

My husband decided that he couldn't continue with surgical training and still be the dad and partner he and I need him to be. So he's dropped out of training. Repeating the idea that childcare issues only affect female surgeons reinforces the idea that childcare is a woman's issue, and in doing so allows the profession to continue as it is. I think you're absolutely right there, Emma. And actually, I think if every time a comment is made about the sacrifices that mothers have to make,

if we use the term parents, we would be doing ourselves a favour because I think it would be completely natural if lots of men immediately feel they don't have to get involved in that conversation because suddenly we're all talking about mums. And I think for lots of mothers, it's incredibly frustrating because a lot of women aren't just mums. They're doing something else as well. So I really take your point, Emma.

And I suppose all we would say in defence of Liz, she seems to be an extremely very competent, very intellectual, very intelligent, equal kind of a person. So I'm sure that she wouldn't mean too much by that. No, I definitely don't think she would. But thank you. I'm sorry, I'm just looking for an email about...

Hang on one second, because I've got it here. Jane says, have I missed the book club? No, we've done that. We've just done it. We're all right. We've just done it. Yes, this is about the conversation we had with Sharon Davis, and it's from Laura.

Thank you very much for writing in, Laura. We done it. Yes, this is about the conversation we had with Sharon Davis, and it's from Laura. Thank you very much for writing in, Laura. We appreciate it. I want to share my opinion, says Laura. I'm a transgender woman of a similar age to Sharon, marginally older, and was actually a competitive swimmer at the same time as her, albeit not as successful. I did swim at county and regional level, though. I later went on to play rugby and lawn bowls at county level

before transitioning in later life, or later in life, sorry. So whilst not competing at an elite level, I feel I have some awareness of competitive sport and what is required to achieve a good standard. I agree with Sharon that trans women who've been through male puberty do have a physical advantage. My current sport is golf and I'm fortunate enough to be able to play to a single figure handicap. However, I know that

I am stronger than most women of my age. The beauty of golf though, because of the handicap system, is that all players, male or female, can play each other from any tee on an equal basis and Laura goes on Sharon's view stems from her sporting experience and as I have stated I have sympathy with that in relation to elite level sport however for the vast majority of us sport is far far more than that elite performers are such a tiny percentage of the sporting population most of us us play sport to compete, yes, but also for health, mental well-being and most importantly for community, which to me is the greatest asset. I'm fortunate enough to play golf at a club which is inclusive and I am welcomed. I know, however, that is not always the case and the focus on elite sport perhaps polarises the wrong issues

and leads to alienation. My experience is that most trans people just want to be respected and to be able to live their lives without condemnation. Unfortunately, we do experience prejudice in our everyday lives and I feel that the elite sport argument does exacerbate that situation. That's an interesting view Laura and you know you you know, you should know because you're coming at this through your own life experience. I'm really chuffed for you that you found a golf club that is welcoming. But of course, actually, it should be welcoming. I mean, golf clubs are for people who want to play golf. So it shouldn't matter who you are or what you

are, should it? It really shouldn't. But it's interesting that I think perhaps Laura does have a point that that focus on elite sport, which is such a tiny part of the whole sporting world, maybe makes things more heated and controversial than they need to be. But how do you ever separate the arguments? No, you can't. I mean, it's, yeah. I mean sharon's view and i i totally get it is that if you've been through male puberty as laura says in her email um that means that you are likely to be stronger end of so therefore in

elite level sport there are going to be issues no doubt about it but there shouldn't be any issues down the local golf club absolutely not uh deborah meaden is our guest this afternoon she was our guest this afternoon a dedicated entrepreneur who puts her environmental credentials on the table in every deal she does i feel i've kind of gone back into the radio show now i'm reading it in a very radio show style yes whether that's in dragon's den or in real life now in 1999 she headed up a management buyout of her family's holiday park company and then sold it for a lot of money further down the line,

then carried on investing in businesses. And she is one of Britain's, I think, most well-known entrepreneurs now, isn't she? Yeah, she's right up there. She lives in Somerset with her husband, Paul, and their menagerie of animals. And that's no understatement. There are dozens of the things. And we do talk about that much later in the interview. But she's now turned her hand to educating the youngest generation about money.

And she's written a book called Why Money Matters. It's part of the Little Experts series. So we began by asking her when she was first aware of the importance of cash. Yeah I think I always was so when I was very small my mother divorced my father when I was about 18 months old so she was single parent family she didn't have any money so I had the gift of growing up being really aware of you know of having to take care of our needs before we could spend any money on our wants, which I think is a huge lesson. So I think it was just always around. There was always discussion of can we afford it? What can we do? You can't have everything you want, you know, and I actually think that's a bit of a gift, really.

Were you worried about money? No, I wasn't. And I think that's one of the reasons I wanted to write the book, because it was talked about, you know, it was explained. And I feel like children in the absence of, you know, if children hear lots of words, and they see worried expressions on their parents' faces, but they don't really understand the words, they usually fill in the gaps themselves. And often the things they make up are much worse than the reality. So, you know, I think because I was talked to, you know, I've understood the value of being explained to why we couldn't have the

things. Don't worry, you know, we still got a house, we still got food on our table, but you can't just have everything you want. So, you know, I do think it's really important to talk to children. It's one of my motivations for writing the book. One of the ways that we learn about money as children is playing with it, isn't it? You know, you had a post office or, you know, you played shops or whatever it was. And I wonder what you think the future is for kids in a cashless world. how can we teach our children about that basic kind of interaction with money when actually for them, they're going to see very little of it? That is so true. I talk about it in the book. I call it invisible money, you know, I'm talking about digital, you know, even cryptocurrencies, you know, I'm actually

writing the next book. I'll be talking about that then. But what we've got to do is make sure that people's children are still imagining or understanding what invisible money is, because actually all money is basically just a record. You know, it's a way of storing. I do some work over here. I don't want to swap that straight away for a loaf of bread. So I'm going to store that work into something. So it's a record of numbers. So you need to think about money as numbers. So every time you spend something, even if it's an invisible money, think about those numbers going down. When you save money, those numbers go up. The more numbers you have, the more you can do with those numbers. So it's just trying to make sure that you get this link of every single activity that you do.

Those numbers, they're going up or they're going down. What age do you think you should start to talk to children about debt? Well, I think, first of all, the thing that really surprised me is that children actually start forming their money habits as young as five or six. Now, that doesn't mean to say they're fully formed, but they are, often it's their parents are influencing them, you know, so that they're beginning to become, are they going to be a spender or are they going to be a saver or are they going to be a spender saver?

So, and I think that the sooner that you can talk to children in the round, I think the better. So you don't want to teach them about money and then suddenly say, oh, and this thing called debt, and we haven't told you about it because it's really, really worrying. So I think that really it needs to be involved in the conversation. The money in the round needs to be involved in the conversation pretty early on. I think at the moment that's really. Because there are a lot of people worried about debt at the moment. And children will pick that up. So understanding what that actually means, you know, and how you can manage it, I think helps them be less worried. I think

if you don't talk about it, they'll get more worried. You also explained tax, which I think is really important because there are actually I've met adults who don't really understand the link between the amount of tax they pay and the quality of the public services, some of which they complain about. And, you know, if we want a healthy, happy, safe society, we need to pay for it. The trouble is that I think from a really early age, we sort of see our parents talk about tax and there's usually a frown on their faces and they're usually not very happy about it. So I think it's really important to understand what we're paying for, you know, and how it actually affects our lives and makes our lives better. And also affects the lives of our friends and our family. And, you know, don't we all want to be surrounded by happy people? Well, in an ideal world, yeah. Although I find happy people a bit irritating, if I'm really honest. You're always very honest about the support of your partner and your

husband, indeed, Paul. How much of your working life would have been possible without him? um how much of your working life would have been possible without him well I so I think it would have been possible would I have enjoyed it as much and would I have would I have been able to enjoy my time outside of work absolutely not so so I could have done I could have done my work I said I don't have children myself I know it's a bit odd that I've written a children's book um but but I don't have children myself so that's so or we don't have children so. I know it's a bit old that I've written a children's book. But I don't have children myself. So that's so or we don't have children so that you know, I didn't have to worry about things like childcare. But what's the point in all of this if you don't get to enjoy things outside of the work that you do? And what Paul has done is absolutely added to my life in that way. You know, it's very much an equal partnership.

So, so, so yeah, I could have done it. Would I want to? Absolutely not. Can we talk about Dragon's Den, Deborah? How much of your own money have you given to the participants of Dragon's Den so far? Oh, well, I'm going to change that to invested in. I'm so sorry. You can, you can tell that I'm a humanities girl, not an economist. I do like to remind people. Yes, sorry. Is that a gift? Of course, invested. So, yes, I think, listen, I've never really added it up.

I know I've made offers on about over six and a half, probably closer to seven million pounds. Not all of those go through, but certainly I will have invested more than four million. Well, certainly more than four million, probably four or five million pounds. But I haven't actually counted the money that's been invested out because, of course, sometimes you agree to do a deal in the den. Then when we come out, we do due diligence in the same way you would on normal, you know, on everyday business life. And sometimes things just, you know, they're not quite what they seem. Or actually, I've even been ghosted. People have accepted an offer and never spoken to me again. So they don't, unfortunately,

they don't all happen. And is it possible, therefore, to be able to tell how much you've got back? Well, I am. Yes. So I think I'm on. I mean, I'm definitely on the upside. It doesn't take many businesses to do well to actually to do that. But of course, you don't really know. So that's in sort of valuation terms. I'm very much on the upside. But it makes me laugh. You know, nobody really knows what they're worth until the day they sell it. You know, and you actually get the cash in the upside. But it makes me laugh. You know, nobody really knows what they're worth until the day they sell it, you know, and you actually get the cash in the bank. So, you know, I'm pretty sure I'm pretty much on the upside. But, you know, who knows, because there's things sometimes outside of the business, you know, what's going on in the world, what's going on in the economy,

that actually when it comes to a sale, you don't get the money that you thought you'd get. Or on the other hand, you get more money than you thought you were going to get. But I'm happy with my investments very much on the upside. What distinguishes a successful entrepreneur from the rest of us? By which I think I probably mean myself, someone who's always been very happy to be essentially a civil servant with a microphone. who's always been very happy to be essentially a civil servant with a microphone? Well, thank goodness everybody wants to do different things because a world full of entrepreneurs wouldn't be a great thing either. But it's hard to say.

We all look different. There's all different shapes and sizes. But I do see some similar characteristics. And I think that certainly the ability and desire to take risks is important. I don't mean gambles. I'm not I'm not a gambler, but I am a calculated risk taker. And I'm happy to do that. I spend a lot of time looking around, you know, so what's going on out there, I suspect you do the same thing as that. But I'm looking for an opportunity. So I'm not just looking around, and I'm interested, I'm thinking, Oh, I wonder, I wonder if that needs that doing. So problem

solvers, open minds, I think a lot of entrepreneurs also tend to spend so much time looking forward that they do need a team with them to actually deliver the thing that they found. So I think that is also true. So having a good nose, good judgment, you know, wanting to having the desire to take risks. And actually, there's also stages in people's lives when you can take risk. You know, I'm not sure if I started, you know, if I had a young family, a new baby, maybe I just bought my first house, you know, I maybe think, well, maybe now's not the time to take a huge risk. So I think it's not just characteristics, it's also the circumstances of people's lives. But do you also have to be prepared not just to fail, but to be seen to

have failed? Oh, absolutely. Oh, actually, thank you. Thank you for saying that is really important because I and I say this to people all of the time. I think one of the reasons that I have been successful is I don't like failure. I do recognize failure and I think about it. What went wrong? What did I do wrong? But then I don't put it in a sack and carry it around with me. And that because I see so many people have loaded a big sack of bad stuff on their back that they can't, you know, they just can't get their head above water. I deal with it and it's gone. And then I'm looking forward. And I think that is also true of many entrepreneurs. If you ask me what's my worst decision in life, I haven't got a clue. And I've made loads of them.

You're listening to Deborah Meaden. She was our guest this afternoon. Now we talked about lots of things to do with money. And it has been said that Britain is a nation of shopkeepers. I asked Deborah if she still considers that to be true. And if it's not, then who on earth are we? Well, I think we are a nation of innovators. I think we do think about new stuff. Well, I don't think we think about doing stuff in different new ways. I talk to people all the time who are, wouldn't it be better if, why don't we do that? Now, not everybody does something about it, but I get people, you know, I get people walking up to me in the streets all the time saying, look, oh no, I've got this great idea. So we're definitely a nation of innovators. As I say, sometimes that doesn't turn into action,

which I can find very frustrating. And some of those ideas are absolutely crazy. But at least we're thinking about them, at least we're coming up with ideas. And we're solving problems, you know, and that's, that's, that's where you start, you know, people who are thinking about stuff, wanting to change stuff, coming up with ideas. That's how you change life. Your green credentials are very firmly established and always govern your choices, Deborah, don't they? I wonder what you think about the current political climate and where that kind of ambition for business and for respite from the cost of living

should lie against staying on target for a better world environmentally. staying on target for a better world environmentally? So I am a little worried at the moment. The good news is that business can actually build, business can move faster than governments and business has got their head wrapped around net zero and it's beginning to get their head wrapped around nature and biodiversity. So that's great. But business does need a framework to operate in. And without that framework, we stop investing

because we're not quite sure what the direction of travel is. And I think there is a real disparity between the conversations that are being had and then the decisions that are being made in terms of the environment at the moment. And I don't think conversation talking about greening issues or being environmental, calling them a hassle is really, really helpful. And I think it's not helpful because honestly and truthfully, if we don't tackle these issues now, boy, are we going to see hassle. I mean, it's really not going to be really very nice. And those that can pay should. I should pay. I should be doing things that actually reduce my impact and also invest and encourage other people into you know changing the way they do things and

looking at greener ways and looking at being more sustainable there are it shouldn't cost people more who and and and in the short term it will because that's what happens with markets you open up a new market it's very expensive to make something more people enter that market and it gets cheaper and cheaper we're in that beginning bit at the moment. So things are costing more. I'm noticing that's actually those costs are coming down. But I do think there needs to be support around that from the government. If we're actually taking this seriously. The trouble is, when we have governments who are actually working in four year chunks, they don't have to make decisions that are going to impact us 20 years from now so then we need to find a way of saying this is happening no it's happening it's not going to happen it's happening

how do we actually long make long-term decisions that business can can operate in to actually alleviate reduce the impact um and ultimately make people's better. And that's really all we're interested in, isn't it? Making people's lives better. It's right. I wrote the book. I want people to build a good and healthy, happy relationship with their money. You know, I want people's lives to be better. But what would you say to someone who chose to spend the money they've worked hard for on frequent long haul travel? Listen, everybody has their own choice and it's not my job to preach. What I do think is it's my job to show alternatives. That's entirely up to people whether they choose them.

There's no point telling people what to do. We all rail against it. We all want to make our own decisions. I think the most important thing we can do is inform and offer alternatives. And then it's entirely up to people whether or not they do it. I personally have changed my life quite substantially. I've reduced my flying probably by about 90%. I haven't flown long haul for five, maybe six years now, I think, back to this winter. But, you know, I make thoughtful travel.

I use the train when I possibly can. And I'm not saying this because look at me, aren't I, you know, aren't I good? I can, I can make those choices in life. What I can't do is make other people make those choices in life. But once we show the picture, you know, then I hope people will choose to make the changes that they can and that they want to in their lives. Do you not worry, though, that in the current political climate, any kind of green policy is being seen as something that could be a little bit harmful to the individual.

We have Rishi Sunak saying, you know, he needs to be pragmatic about any changes that this government will actually instigate, which is a departure from an ultimate commitment to going green, isn't it? I do worry. that's that's very much what i'm worried about at the moment and it but it but it's also where i get the hope i think you know i did a podcast called the big green money show um and i talked to a lot of businesses

about what they were doing and actually in the abs in the vacuum you know they're actually getting on with it they understand that understand that this is a proper issue that needs to be dealt with. So the problem with that, that's fantastic. The problem with that is it isn't within a framework, which means there's a lot of disparate stuff going on. And this is too big an issue for everybody to do their own little bit. You know, we need to kind of join this together. I definitely think that I think there's very a lot of very unhelpful conversation going on, you know, and it's it's setting up again. It's sort of rich versus poor. Why is it going to cost me more money? This is not a rich versus poor issue. You know, we're all going to suffer from climate change.

Yes, those who can afford it should pay more. I absolutely think that's right. So but but we really shouldn't be setting it up sort of climate versus people, because, you know, it is our life support system. Nature is our life support system, we are part of we don't have air, we don't have water, you know, we have extreme weather instances, then, you know, all of our lives are going to be harmed. So this isn't a climate versus people. It's how do we work with nature to make sure that we can live a healthy life. Would you go into the House of Lords? I have no ambition. I have no political ambition at all, other than keeping a watchful eye on what's going on and also using my voice where and when i can

i have never thought about entering the house of lords um if i genuinely thought it was going to be helpful yes but i don't need it for titles i really i'm not interested in um in what i'm called you know what robes i get to wear i'm much more interested in the impact that my voice can have. Have you seen Barbie? I haven't yet. I don't know. I've heard I was I had Rachel Riley, lovely Rachel Riley. She was down last weekend and she absolutely loved it. And at the same, you know, sitting next to another friend of mine at dinner who who said they hated it. So I really don't know what to what to do. Go see it. Just go see it. Yes. So we've both seen it deborah and i thought it was a really fantastically clever and joyful romp through modern feminism jane wasn't as no i thought it was a bit long uh but what i did think was great was that i had a semi almost entirely

full cinema on a monday night watching a film that was just slagging off the patriarchy and that can't be bad actually for that alone i'm going to see barbie yeah can i ask you about your fantastic collection of animals uh this is an inventory uh from march 2022 deborah so what's changed since having two cats four dogs five horses three pigs three sheep half a battery, former battery hens, sorry. Numerous birds, ducks and guinea fowl. Any other additions? We have five dogs now. Wow.

And we don't have pigs. Oh, dear. Oh, is that too sad a story to tell? Did we have sheep then? Yes, you had three sheep. Ah, we have 11 sheep now. Brilliant. Do you do the genuine mucking out on all of those animals uh when i can i actually okay this will sound really

weird i love mucking out and feeding if you think about my life generally i you know it's it's all quite ethereal because you know i don't you make decisions, you talk about things. I don't get my hands dirty. And I love that's the one thing I miss about actually working in a business because I don't work in a business. You know, actually doing stuff and getting to the end of it and achieving it. You know, I said long term decisions and, you know, five years we'll know whether or not they work. So so the joy of actually getting into the horse's stable and it's filthy and me just mucking it out and cleaning it. I just honestly, I can't tell you how much pressure I get from that, but I don't always have the time. What is lovely is that the

people around me kind of sense when I want to and when I can't. So, you know, they back off when I'm around and they get involved when I'm not. Deborah Meaden. And if you want to buy that book for your little ones, the one about money, it's called Why Money Matters. And it's superb, actually. It goes through the history of money, how it started off as bartering, what makes one currency more valuable at a different time to another. Stuff about tax, stuff about investing. It is really, really good. I actually am one of those people who I'm mourning the death of cash. I really am.

It's a lovely feeling holding a couple of notes in your hand, isn't it? No, I don't mind. Do you not carry cash around with you? No, I really don't. And I really like that, actually. It just feels cleaner. But I do rather obsessively check my spending every day do you well that's interesting I do too and it's what is also true is I never used to

no I mean so I'm better with money now I can see it okay definitely well yeah except if you spend cash you really it's a physical thing with me and I am much i'm hardly likely to spend i'd never i can't remember the last time i'd spend something like 80 quid in cash no that's true i mean just because you'd feel it would be a visceral happening yeah handing over 80 quid but i definitely wouldn't have actually checked my purse every evening to see what was left in it in the way that i do now check what i've spent during the day make it does make me aware but you're right that kind of you know oh i've accidentally bought a well i did this morning i think before eight o'clock i bought an 11 pound 99 water bottle because i'd

left my for life water bottle in the skoda garage turned Turned out not to be for life. No, very much, very much not for life. I'm on my second one. I'm on my second life, Jane. You're having a good run at this one. A new lease of life. Right, this time tomorrow, England. Oh, I don't want to say it. No, don't say it.

This will be annoying people in Australia and indeed in Scotland. So we don't want to. And here. Don't forget us. Have a very good evening. We're back tomorrow. We've got a really interesting guest tomorrow. The man who, I mean, he was incredibly brave and, you know, let's face it, I'm not

sure most of us, when really tested, do find that we're all that brave. This bloke was tested on London Bridge during the terrorist attack and he more than came through it. Darren Frost is his name and his story will be very interesting to hear so we'll look forward to meeting him. So we're going to be hearing from him tomorrow so a proper life experience on the podcast tomorrow evening. It's Jane and Fi at Times.Radio and thank you so much

for your continued interest in this podcast. We do appreciate it. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio. We start at 3 p.m. and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about

being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fee and give us a follow. So in other words, we're everywhere, aren't we, Jane? Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.