Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The cheese calls to you (with Alvin Hall)

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

Buckle up for an extra existential episode, because Jane and Fi are asking if life would be easier as a sherbet fountain? Or maybe a two-fingered sloth in a zoo? What about a young cat having a wee in the middle of a mattress in the spare room? They're joined by Alvin Hall to talk about his book 'Driving the Green Book'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm absolutely ready to go. Is that alright? Are you ready to go? I'm just digesting the last of Henry Bird's... What was it again? It's a chocolate orange vegan wedding cake. Right, that's it. I've still got a little bit here. I can't start eating it though because it's very, very rich. It is rich. It might be a little claggy for the microphone. No, it's actually a particularly nice cake. I mean, I'm not, you know, I used to have a sweeter tooth. I know it's hard to believe because I still love chocolate, but I don't

think I'm quite as invested as I once was. That's a hormonal thing because I am a big cheese fan. Cheese is now my thing. I think the cheese calls to you. I think cheese calls to you when you're older. Yeah. And gherkins.

I'm with you on that. In fact, sometimes I think just a lovely little plate of cheese and crackers will do me as a full meal. It will. Do you? It really will, Jane. If I've got a nice box set on the television. Yeah. And I've got some rosé wine out of my third tap by the sink

and a little plate of cheese and crackers. You're a very, very, very happy woman. You see, I could do without the crackers. I think crackers are kind of pointless. Oh, no, I do like that because I like the crunch. And I think just actually as a kind of little bit like the Central Reservation on a very fast dual carriageway the crackers slow me down otherwise the whole cheese would go in yeah so do you think you might turn into a cheese

i think it's quite likely that was always an idle threat that mothers used to and i used to think really i'm not going to what you'll turn into a cheese well no you're going to turn into a sherbet fountain i'd actually think well it'd be more fun than this, Mum. Yeah, it'd be a lot easier than being a bloody schoolgirl who's got a Latin to do. I'd rather be a Sherbert fountain. Anyway. Which animal would you like to come back as?

I'm going to say a badger. Oh, no, not a badger. No, because they have a terrible land. They get cold. Oh, my God. No, not a badger. Spent the entire time trying to avoid Jeremy Clarkson. A giraffe.

A giraffe? Because then I'd have a view of the world I've certainly not had in this life. That's a very good answer. You could be really, really nosy across the savannah. Well, I'd like to stay in East West Kensington and roam inconspicuously around my manor. I think that would be possible. Well, maybe.

Maybe. What would you like to come back as? I'd like to come back as, I don't know, one of those slightly kind of comedy animals. You know, a two-fingered sloth or something like that. Okay. Why don't they see much action, do they? Well, no, I think they get left to their own devices

and they do a lot of sleeping. But then they're one of those ones, you know, everyone's always happy to see them at a zoo. I wouldn't like to be one of those animals where you end up in a zoo and everyone recoils in horror from you. That seems to be a rather miserable double fate. Yeah, I mean, zoos are perhaps a difficult subject anyway for a lot of people.

But to be an unpopular animal in a zoo really must, that's a double whammy that's a massive, oh that's awful Trapped and hated No, that's terrible. Anyway, talking of animals, like you said in a very slick and quite professional way you were, I couldn't

believe it yesterday, you said to me that you were thinking of getting a litter tray for Barbara I am. And so how has that gone? Okay, so Brian is just lovely it yesterday you said to me that you were thinking of getting a litter tray for barbara i am and so how has that gone oh okay so brian is just lovely these are the cats these are the cats yep so brian is very very happy he's got all his little twigs lined up you know plays with them all day he's got very close relationship with a couple of pieces of bark he's completely happy barbara just seems to spend her entire day wandering around the house having a piss and sometimes having a poop uh and she's really not house trained and it's a bit weird jake so they came from the same litter and brian is perfectly house and we are sure they're related

yes yeah yeah well i mean i wasn't present at their birth conception is the thing i'm worried about some of these cats these lady cats they don they don't ask it about. I know. Well, there is that possibility. But anyway, so Barbara's not really very house... And I am going to have to get an indoor litter tray. And I know that you have one for Dora and you're just, you know, you've just dealt with it. But I find it really difficult. I don't like the...

I'm not that kind of pet owner. I don't like that. I'm not... Can I just be clear about this? I'm not a pet owner who enjoys dealing with the litter tray. No, but you've always seemed to be quite, you've always defended Dora when I've slightly laughed at the fact that Dora won't go outside.

Well, she will go outside. She just comes in to use the lavatory. A little bit like myself. Okay. So you think that I just have to give in to Barbara? I wonder whether it's a lady cat thing. They just prefer to do their business in private rather than being... In the spare room on the mattress. Well, was she alone at the time? I think so.

Well, there we go. She was completely in private. I mean, I agree. It's not ideal. And I tell you what, the stench of cat wee can linger. Well, the mattress has just got to go. Well, it'll come back to haunt you, particularly as the temperature goes up.

Yeah, I can't know. Anyway, something to look forward to. If Jo Malone's listening and she's looking for some new scent ideas, pop round to Fee's house. Thank you for joining us for Off Air. Barbara will be what the smells call. That's Barbara's piss. And unfortunately, the terms

of endearment have now stuck. So it's lovely Brian and pissy Barbara. And that's how they're referred to in the house. Well, it's lovely Brian. Come in, Brian. Little pissy Barbara. Lovely. OK.

Right. Well, I mean, I think I'll probably go. By the time I'm in the old home for the less impartial than I once was. Broadcasters. Well, I think we're now moving in. We were going to go to the BBC home for the impartialial than I once was broadcasters. Well, I think we're now moving in. We were going to go into the BBC home for the impartial and infirm. Yeah. We are now checking into the News UK,

old people's home for the commercial and complex. Well, I think I suspect that when that time comes, I'll be more Barbara than Brian. But anyway, let's see. Let's see whether the fates are kind to me and indeed to my future carers. They're probably not listening, although they might be. Right.

Oh, I know this is quite a good one. Over the last year, says Lucy, I've been listening to you ladies and there have been many topics for which I thought I've got something to say, but then I didn't really do anything about it. But today I have got to bring to your attention that although you are both extremely experienced broadcasters, could you please try to enunciate properly when you're talking about joy surges?

Because it most definitely isn't Joyce urges. I don't know anybody called Joyce, says Lucy, but I feel uncomfortable hearing about Joyce urges anyway, whether they be the urges of Joyce or urges towards a Joyce, especially given the proximity to the current ongoing topic of listeners' sexual appetites. Surely I'm not the only listener who's heard it. I can't believe nobody else has mentioned it already. There you have it then, my inaugural email to a podcast. Best wishes, Lucy. Well, welcome, Lucy, in every single way. And thank you for taking the time to email janeandfee at times.radio.

We will try to do better. We certainly will. This one comes from Lynn, who says, I've just listened to a couple of your recent podcasts as entertainment whilst eating dinner on a solo self-catering holiday in Cyprus. Sounds lovely, actually. How soon can we get there? This evening, I almost choked on my halloumi during the extract of Kevin Mar's review of Jude Law

as Henry VIII with his very ample pumping buttocks. As for the collective noun for buttocks, may I suggest involving Roman history by naming the buttocks Gluteus Maximus I and Gluteus Maximus II. I fly back to the UK tomorrow after a relaxing week of me time and I look forward to being entertained by future episodes of your podcasts. Do you know what? We cannot get away from Jude Law and his ample pumping buttocks.

We've mentioned them every day so far this week. But this is going to be the last time we draw attention to what were they again? His ample pumping buttocks. Never again. Okay. We are never, ever talking about those buttocks again. It did lead me to think, though, Jane, it's just been incredibly clever film PR

because they mentioned the buttocks, which would get everybody talking. They mentioned the fact that they might have CGI-ed Jude Law's buttocks, which meant you looked up Jude Law's buttocks and I looked up the film. And then there was the piece about the perfume that had been made especially for Jude Law to wear during the film, which had top notes

of faeces and bottom notes of pus. And we've fallen for it. Totally. Haven't we? We absolutely have. And a film called Firebrand that I'd previously never heard of I now can't get out of my head. Well done then. But we see through it. Oh, we've seen right through it.

We fell for it again. And then we saw through it oh we've seen right through it right through it we fell for it again we fell for it and then we saw through it it's been the story of my life um jilly cooper is absolutely rishi sunak's best favorite author every single night he puts on his lovely fleecy pyjams and he settles down for a reread of a Jilly Cooper classic. Will it be Riders? Will it be Rivals? Will it be one of the other ones whose names I can't remember? Is he a secret admirer of the antics of Rupert Campbell Black, who was an absolute bounder and a cad, but a hell of a lover in a horse box, from memory?

That is him, isn't it? That is him, Jane. OK, anyway, Alex says that she thinks you've slightly got Jilly Cooper wrong because you said in one of her books somebody had been kidnapped, a young woman, and was then congratulated on having lost weight during her kidnap ordeal. We are not meant to admire this behaviour, says Alex, but to laugh knowingly at it and slightly pity the heroine. At least that's what I think.

I do think Julie's books are very witty and warm and have been unfairly maligned because of the bonk buster label. I feel genuinely bereft when I finish her books and realise that the vibrant communities in which I've spent the last few hours don't actually exist. I'm hoping the upcoming TV series will prompt a reappraisal. Actually that's true isn't it? I can't remember which one of her books is. Is it Riders that's coming back? I think it is or is it Rivals? I think it's Rivals. Rivals okay. And is that about a rivalry within the equestrian horse box community? Well no

which is the one about the orchestra? There's one about the world of TV which may be rivals actually Riders is obviously about horses there's definitely one about an orchestra is that a passionata? that sounds like it might be about music but do you know what I really take our correspondence point

because I've been lost in Jilly Coopers in the past so I don't want to treat them with complete derision because I think when you're in a Jilly Cooper you're completely in a Jilly Cooper. I just don't think I could read the early ones now, I don't know, with a slightly more cynical, been in the world too long head, that's all.

Oh, don't be so hard on yourself. No, but it's true, isn't it? It's like what we were talking about with the Joe Nesbo. You know, what you read in your 20s, I think it just changes. And actually, that's an interesting point for our listeners. Hello, peoples. I wonder whether all of your tastes have changed. So sometimes I will go and pick up a book that I read,

which I think, oh, I absolutely love this. And within a couple of chapters, it's just like, it's not that I hate it. It's just like, oh, no, that's not gripping me at all anymore. Well, let's put it out there. You have now finished Maryland, haven't you? That rare but wonderful thing, a TV series in just three episodes, accessible on terrestrial television and the ITVX thing that I still can't get on my telly, that isn't about a murder.

It's not about a murder. But it does feature a woman's body on the beach at the beginning. I saw that and thought, oh, it's just another. And it's not. It's not. It's got a very interesting and sensitive plot. I wished it had gone on for longer. I'll tell you what it doesn't do.

It doesn't make me want to go to the Isle of Man. Well, it wasn't filmed on the Isle of Man. Where was it filmed? I think Northern Ireland. Was it? Yeah. Why wouldn't they film it on the Isle of Man? There was a reason.

Is it set on the Isle of Man? I can't remember what the reason was. Anyway, there you go. Is it too taxing? Actually, the only time I've ever had a lit cigarette in my mouth was on the Isle of Man. Tell us more. That's it.

That's the story. Did you have one puff and just think it's not for you? I had one puff, coughed, and thought, no, I've tried to be a maverick. It's the story. Did you have one puff and just think it's not for you? I had one puff, coughed and thought, no, I've tried to be a maverick. It's not working. May I ask how old you were? I was at guide camp. So I think I was probably, I stayed in the guides longer than I should have done. 23?

Yeah, I was 28 actually. No, we're not going there. Anyway, I haven't been back to the island man since but um she was very brave our guide captain who would spend their summer holiday taking 35 scousers to the island i think that about every school trip that my kids have ever been on i think teachers you are amazing it's your holiday time and you're in charge. Yes. I mean, properly in charge. In loco parentis, you're on a

coach trip. Oh, my word. I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. No. Quick shout out to Celia. Thank you for the recommendation to watch The Kemps, All True. You were right, it did have a kind of further title. It was so good, really brilliant. Loved the bit with Shirley. She was totally game for a laugh,

which ages me, says Celia. No, it doesn't. And if you like that, Jane, you'll love Colin from Accounts. Watch it. It will make you view unicycles in a different light. Why will it do that? Well, thank you for backing me up, Celia,

because I have been having a go at Jane for about three weeks to watch Colin from Accounts. She'd be very, very, very resistant. The unicycle is just a rather perfect um joke about midlife crises right there's lots of stuff in it that is really really clever and very sweet so i'd like you to watch it and then we can talk a bit about it okay i'll try i will try she said as though she's been asked to create a model of the Sydney Opera House out of lard. Try and watch a very, very amusing rom-com available on the iPlayer.

You don't even have to go to the ITVX. I don't really understand ITVX. Is it just ITV? No. What is it? It's the ITV streaming service. No. What is it?

It's the ITV streaming service. So they've put their sort of top-notch quality drama and indeed documentaries on ITVX before it's available to viewers of ITV. OK. I don't think I have ITV anymore. I've just got ITVX. I'm so old, ITV used to be called The Other Side, which was an indication that, in fact... It was a bit common.

Well, it was common, but also the faint hint of, I don't know, people who died, passed away and were coming through. Gosh. Yeah. Has he gone to the other side? I used to find the BBC so boring. Obviously, I came to respect it during the years that I worked there. I used to find their programme so dull, we used to set our watches

so we could flip over to just watch the adverts on ITV during any BBC programme. Because the adverts were really exciting in the late 1970s, early 1980s. When you started to get your bird's eye,

your pop tarts, your success on a plate for you, the adverts were funny and bright and breezy, weren't they? They were. I think the level of disappointment associated with one's first Pop-Tart cannot be underestimated. They were not great Pop-Tarts. No, I don't think they are. And wasn't there a scalding danger as well?

It was a massive scalding danger. Look out, kids. We've got a really, really amazing guest, scalding danger. Look out, kids. Yeah. We've got a really, really amazing guest, Alvin Hall. We have, but just one moment. On the podcast. I just want to mention Ivy. Yes, please do.

Aprons. Does anybody wear an apron while cooking anymore? Very good question, Ivy. Very good question. I've got about four aprons in a drawer, and they haven't been out of the drawer since last christmas so what is it about 21st century women that they're prepared to get all their ingredients all over their top have we no self-respect anymore this country is going to the dogs let's discuss it

more jane and fee at times dot radio do you remember, did you ever have a plasticised apron? No, what was that for? Well, I just remember my mum having one. I think it had red cherries on it. It was a white background with red cherries. It was that kind of oil-skinny plastic material for real ease of wipe-down convenience, not just protecting your clothing,

protecting the clothing that was protecting your clothing. Clothing, right, okay, sure, taking no chances. My mum is a very, very, very sensible woman. Did she cook a lot with fat? No, very rarely, actually. Right. It was mainly when she was taking the liver out of the swan.

Right, the Green Book tells a powerful story about race in America. Actually, do you know what? One of mum's all-time favourite dishes, and she cooked it very powerful story about race in America. Actually, do you know what? One of Mum's all-time favourite dishes, and she cooked it very well, was liver and onions. If I made that for my kids now, they would run from the house screaming. Well, I have a great fondness for liver and onions.

I mean, I wouldn't eat it now, weirdly, but I do remember as a kid absolutely loving it. It's dead cheap liver. It was a staple in our family diet. It's still really cheap. I know food prices have gone up, but liver, I bizarrely noticed the other day, is still the cheapest bit of meat you can get, pretty much.

That's what people come to the podcast for. Cheap cuts. The Green Book tells a powerful story about race in America. It was first published as a pamphlet by a man called Victor Green, who was a postal worker with an entrepreneurial spirit, and his wife, Alma Duke, back in about 1936. They were a young married couple. They set up home in Harlem in New York, but their roots were in the South, and they would presumably have travelled across the country to go back to see their relatives and friends. They were still living in the time of Jim Crow and segregation and to travel as a black American was to put you and your family in possible danger and so Victor started to compile the Green Book. It has become a potent symbol of just how divided America was and Alvin Hall who is a writer, lecturer and financial educator decided that he was going to

travel the same path that many Americans of colour would have travelled using the Green Book. And he came in today to talk about it. And he's written a book about it. And there's also a podcast. It's such a remarkable thing, the Green Book. How many original copies of it exist, if any? I think there are 26 original copies existing at the Schomburg Library for Research in Black Culture. It's the largest collection in America in one institution. And that's where I started my journey. I was reading a travel magazine on an airline and thought, they mentioned the Negro Motorist Green Book. I've not heard of this publication.

And so when I got back to New York City, I went to the Schomburg and they laid them out on the desk in front of me. I was stunned. What do they actually look like? How many pages? They are about eight by 12 inches, a little bit smaller. They were designed to fit into a car's glove compartment. And it was an annual publication that came out every April or May

at the beginning of the vacation season. In the early days, it just contained a printed image on it, such as you would do with offset printing. But gradually, it contained illustrations, and then it would contain destinations, modes of travel, airplane, trains, and then people on vacation. So it evolved over the years. And also it started out only covering the Northeast because that's where Victor and his friends tended to travel. Then by 1938, it was gradually spreading across America and eventually covered America, Canada, the Caribbean and parts of Europe. A phenomenon. How would Victor have managed to compile this list of businesses in a time so, so before mass communication?

Victor had the advantage of being a postman in Hackensack, New Jersey. of being a postman in Hackensack, New Jersey. At the time, there were two postman's unions, a black postman's union and a white postman's union. And depending upon what state you lived in, you had to be in one or the other. But Victor, for some reason, was in the white postman's union. So he really relied upon them or encouraged them as they were delivering mail to give him the names of places that he thought that he should visit or that should be in the publication. The Black Postman Union was certainly a great source of this information. But another great source was the Pullman Porters, who were on all the trains in America. So as they went to these various locations where they would take the Green Book for delivery,

they would also scope out places for Victor, tell Victor about them. Eventually, as the green book grew, he had agents in various states who would look for businesses to list in the green book. So it's a very, very early TripAdvisor. Exactly, exactly. And a lot of word of mouth. I haven't exaggerated the danger in the queue that I wrote there to introduce the piece. And actually, one of the things that I found profoundly troubling but touching listening to the podcast and reading the book was just this sense of danger that was pervasive when you left your local neighborhood.

Can you tell us a little bit more about what you found and how it affected you? I think of three stories when I think of people's on the road experiences. I think of the man I met in Tallahassee, whose father was a great civil rights activist. And his father was this legend. He was driving down the road, stopped at a service station, and wanted to use the bathroom. And the guy under the hood said to him, the bathroom is there. It's available, but they just don't want you to use it because the attendant said, no, it's not available. And so when he asked and challenged the attendant in a very gentle way, another white driver came around and slapped him and said, we don't like your kind around here. And that was pervasive during that period of time. White service stations did not have to give you gasoline at all.

People would tell us stories about being stopped on the road by any random white people in southern states. Because if you pass the car too fast, if your car looked too new, if your car looked too old, white people had the right to challenge you on the roadways of America. And you as a black person had no choice but to accept it. So I know there's another story coming because you mentioned there were three, but let's just stop on that point. I mean, that is just extraordinary, isn't it? That it was a legal right for a white person to be able to call out a black person

for simply being there, not indicating in time, not having a brake light, just being in the road in front of them. Exactly. And they would spit on people's tires if your car was too new. They would scratch your car if they thought that you had too much money.

You had to be very, very careful. The third story was of a lady in Montgomery, Alabama, and she told the story about her father driving down from either Detroit or Chicago. And as a sheriff passed, they were told to look away, not look at the car because black people couldn't look at white people in the eyes. And the father kept saying after the sheriff passed, I have a bad feeling about this. I have a real bad feeling about this. And eventually he turned around in the rear view mirror and he saw the sheriff coming and he decided to gun it. So he had an eight cylinder car and he pulled as far ahead as he could. And then he slowed down and pulled off the road so he would leave no dust. And they pulled behind the church where they sat and waited and waited for the sun to go down.

And the sheriff went up the road and down the road, but never thought to look behind that black Baptist church where they were hiding. Sometimes, thank goodness for religion. And there are many, many more stories in the book i was really touched as well by the policeman who bought himself and his family a new cadillac that had a cb radio oh yes yes and that's extraordinary isn't it because he got to hear over the cb radio what white folks were saying about him yeah they were driving were driving to California and he got on the CB radio and he told them that he was this brown and beige, I think Cadillac. And his wife got angry at him because she said, don't tell them they'll recognize you and we could be in trouble. And then they had heard something about a warning that there was a sheriff ahead.

And he said, did the sheriff, I think they call them smokies they call them smokies as in smoky bears did you see the smoky head and the person on the cb radio said no all we see is a bus full of i forget yard monkeys or something like that i had never heard that term at all in my whole life and he said, that's the type of stuff that people said on CB radios in those days. Very pejorative. So put this into context in terms of time as well, because we're talking about a time way past civil rights legislation, aren't we? But we're still in the era of Jim Crow segregation and that kind of long tale? Yes, people think that all of this ended with the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. But it continued many years after that, because

although the law changed, human behavior did not change. Even in the village where I grew up in the Florida Panhandle, it was still de facto segregation for years and years after that. There were things you did not dare do because you did not know what reaction it would provoke. I think outside of America, people often saw, oh, the changing of the laws is going to be a new America. And many black people thought the same thing. I think of Hank Sanders, who was the first African American elected to the Alabama legislature since Reconstruction. And we're interviewing him. And he said he thought that in 10 years, everything would be fine. And I said, if Martin Luther King were here today, And I said, if Martin Luther King were here today, what would you say to him?

And he'd say, Dr. King, I did not know you were talking in biblical years. Yeah, and there's plenty to talk about, and hopefully we'll make time for it during this interview about the current state of race relations in America. I was fascinated as well just about the importance of the car. It wasn't something that I'd really considered, but it is hugely important, isn't it, in black American history? Absolutely. As you moved from the rural south up north and you took a job in the automobile industry fee, it meant for the first time you were earning a wage, a living wage, and you could pay the rent and you could save money to buy a car and the car gave you freedom. You were for the rent and you could save money to buy a car. And the car gave you freedom. You were for the first time the captain of your own ship. You could drive past those hotels that wouldn't let you stay in them.

You could drive through those sundown towns that would not let black people be in them after dark. It gave you freedom. When I was growing up, there was an ironic side of this. freedom. When I was growing up, there was an ironic side of this. A lot of white people said, oh, black people waste their money buying all those big cars with those big engines. Why don't they buy practical cars? And in doing the podcast and writing the book, I said to people, think about it. You couldn't stay in hotels along the road. So you wanted a big car. So if you had two or three children in the car, they could stretch out on those big bench seats in the back of the car and be comfortable. If you

need to lie down, you could lie down. But also you wanted to have that power behind you, that horsepower, so that if you got chased like that lady told us about in Montgomery, Alabama, you could get away. That was really important. And there are some lovely details. I love the bit about the kids having mini urinals in the back of one enormous Cadillac or something. I do think that's quite brave. And I'm not sure it caught on really. Jane and I were just mentioning the Sundown Towns. Can you tell us a little bit about those? Sundown Towns developed in America to keep black people out of the city limits. And they really came into a big phenomena in the 40s and 50s in America.

And most people think that sundown towns are phenomena of the South. They are not. of the South. They are not. There were more sundown towns in Indiana, Ohio, even Michigan, than many southern towns. And these were places where, as an African American, you got caught in the city limits after dark. You could be harassed. You could be put in jail. In a southern town, a guy said that, I think it was a town called Duck Hill, that his father told him about a black man who was in town after sundown, and he was tarred and feathered. So a lot of the police harassment would happen if you were caught in sundown towns.

And they're still around. I was going to say, which decade are we in now? Yeah, the sundown towns still exist in America, except they're softer now. If you happen to be in some of these places on Long Island or in California or some of these Midwestern suburbs, you'll get stopped. In Hezekiah Jackson in Birmingham told us a story that he drove a guy out to a suburb outside of Birmingham. And as he dropped them off at the church, the guy was a workman at the church, and he pulled away.

The police came as if coordinated, you know, two from this side, two from the left, two from the back, and one from the front. And they asked him, what was he doing in this neighborhood? Right? And that was, in effect, a sundown community because they wanted to know, why was this black man in this neighborhood?

And he said he just wanted to get out because he was clearly not welcomed. Alvin Hall is our guest this afternoon. We're talking about his book, which is called Driving the Green Book. It's also in podcast form as well, which is a beautiful mix, actually. It's very nicely done. Very nicely done. I also read the audio book. Oh, gosh, so much of you. I also read the audio book. Oh, gosh, so much of you. Alvin, tell us a little bit about your own story, because you are a remarkable man. Yeah, I was born in a small village in Florida, and I was lucky to be raised by parents who really gave me freedom.

They had no expectation for me other than to get an education and go to school and go to church and be a good person. But all those things stayed in me. And so when I went off to college, I didn't go to college with the idea of having a career. I went with the idea that I was going to learn something and figure out what I was going to do later on. And then at various stages of my life, I would teach school. I worked in a department store. I did whatever I could until I always say luck came my way. And luck came my way in the form of a job on Wall Street, teaching about finance, when it's something that most people wouldn't think, oh, what would he know about that? It turned out I was really good at it. And I enjoyed it so much because the financial markets are not just about money. They're really about a form of creativity, creating products and investment

methodologies that will appeal to people. And then being in London on a holiday, I met somebody in the photographer's gallery who said to me, Alvin, you should be on television. And that led to me doing Your Money or Your Life, which is how you should be on television. And that led to me doing Your Money or Your Life, which is how you and I met. Yes, we did meet all those years ago. I mean, I don't want to over romanticize your own story, Alvin, but let's not do it down either. I mean, it would be fair to say that your family really didn't have very much money. We had no money. At all. Yeah, my mother never earned over $3,700 a year. So for you to then go to college and then to Wall Street to live in the

glory that is Manhattan and to do all the things that you do. The first time I met you, you just got off Concord. That's right. That's true. I mean, it just is quite a journey. It is quite a journey. And I think that the road trip to write this book really taught me something about black love for their children. Black parents really protected their children against the evils of racism. There's this wonderful story that this guy at the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham told me how when he would walk down the street and a white person was approaching the family, his mother would distract him. Oh, look at that church steeple over there. And then she would step to the left of the child to put herself between the child and the white person so he would not accidentally run into the white person. And I remember that waltz walking down the street with my own parents and how that love and your parents protected you. They didn't tell you about how evil it was going to be because they knew

there would come a day when they couldn't protect you. But that freedom gave me ambition. It gave me the trust and love of people. And it gave me the ability to treat people as I would want them to treat me. All of that is a part of the person that I grew up with. So what on earth do you make of what's happening in your country now? I find it very disturbing that the tendency of the country seems to want to roll back to a time that didn't really exist in the way that they imagined that it did. They forget that in this old conservative make America greater than again, that there was oppression of women, of people of color, of anybody who was different. It seems as if America is embracing the idea of

any other as an enemy. And with that, in combination with guns and the rise of violence, these attacks on America, it's very disturbing. The book burning, the tendency among states to try to limit women's rights to control their bodies, to be in charge of themselves. It's just very disturbing. I want more people to be out in the street protesting. I want more people to be talking about what freedom actually means in America. But people seem to be too comfortable. Why hasn't, and this may seem like a naive question, and I think sometimes we are naive, as you've said, when we are observers outside of your country,

but why haven't the Democrats managed to harness that very powerful feeling about freedom and about the American dream and about the freedom that should lie within that dream. Why hasn't that message overturned the nastier side of the Republican movement? I think the Republicans are much more skillful at grabbing the narrative, grabbing the language and co-opting it and shaping it to their ideas. I think a lot of the Democrats don't want to be so frontal,

don't want to be so brutal, but I think it's getting to the point that they're going to have to be. They're going to have to bring in those wordsmiths, those people with emotional intelligence about language to help them shape the language, not to be nice, but to talk about the truth that's being distorted by the other side at this point. Do you think that Joe Biden should run for president again? I mean, he would be, was it 84 by the time he was in the middle of that term?

That's a tricky question because who else is there? Who else has stepped forward who wants to take on that job? At least even at 84, he would have the courage to take it on and perhaps stand up more than others would. It's a brutal job these days when you look at how the Senate is treating him, how they talk about him as an old man, there's a level of disrespect. There's a level of dismissiveness there. Look at how they stymied Obama. Look at how, although he had a lot of popular power,

he was very much aware that as a black man in government, if he reacted in certain ways, that it would be turned into a decided negative. It's a hard job to take on the Republican Party at this point. But someone has to, someone needs to have the courage to do it. What do you think of Elon Musk? And I ask you that because you're a man who's invested quite a lot in tech over the years and presumably done quite well out of it. What do you think Elon's up to? What's his future? I find it fascinating that Elon Musk, who is, I think, a first generation American, is so conservative when what enabled him to build the fortune was not conservative values.

It was an openness, a generosity, an idea that your idea deserved to be heard and given a chance. But it seems as if now that he has made his billions, he doesn't want to give other people chances. He wants to turn America back into a world in which he is now king of the hill. He isn't that struggling guy. What if he had failed? What if things had not turned out the way they are? Alvin Hall, whose book is called Driving the Green Book, a road trip through the living history of black resistance. And I'm rather ashamed, Jane, that I didn't know more

about the Green Book. And I know that know more about the green book and I know that there was a Hollywood movie but I think that's not actually really about the green book but I didn't know the huge significance of it actually well I mean social history is not widely known is it and I mean my ignorance of of um certainly of black history and the experience of people of color in the states is really, really poor and it needs to be better. And I thought this book was properly interesting because although Alvin himself says that there are black people in the States who didn't know about the Green Book, I don't know whether, I mean, Lord knows what they're taught in American history lessons, but to be honest,

British kids are not taught a huge amount about the social history of Britain, are they? Unless you take a particular bit of syllabus or I don't know. Yeah. It is odd the way history is taught because it's a particular sort of history, generally speaking, that is part of the curriculum. So many things surprised me in the book, particularly the sundown towns, actually, Jane,

because that was in the 1960s and 70s. There was still a curfew where if you were black, you could just be kicked out of the city limits. It was, you know, you were prohibited from being in a place because of the colour of your skin, that you were allowed to be in in daylight. That's what's just so... The idea being that you might have been working so-called legitimately. Yes, but also the inference is that you're just trouble, aren't you? So under cover of nightfall, trouble will come. To be honest, in this country, anyone who isn't white will tell you

they're much more likely to be stopped now. Yes, that's true. It's not really any different, is it? I mean, it should be different, it just isn't. Yeah, Alvin was really, and I know that you met him years ago, didn't you? So it was really nice for you to see him again. And he seems to have done terribly well for himself.

Oh, he's a very interesting man. I mean, he was being slightly modest about his, you know, rise to the heights of Wall Street. I think he's quite a, you know, his financial acumen is much admired in America. He did also mention women's rights in the States. And I do think it's a subject that we could certainly talk about. I mean, we know we have people who listen to off air in the USA.

I don't, this whole abortion stuff is incredibly frightening. And it seems to be that we go from one week to the next with yet another state bringing in laws that effectively make it pretty difficult to get an abortion beyond six weeks in some cases, beyond 12 weeks in other cases. It's just something that I think we need to just get out in the open more and just ask ourselves whether we are really frightened by this or just more than really frightened. I don't really know how to express it, but it's something that's just creeping up on people. Very peculiar to my mind. Yeah, I would agree. I think it's one of those things that for you and I, living in our liberal and empowered world, actually, maybe we assumed that being denied

rights of control over your own reproductive body was you know was just something that we'd passed through you know we were so certain yeah that roe versus wade had changed american history and that we'd changed our legislation here it couldn't possibly go back uh so to to see in our lifetime and i think the thing that always clarifies the mind that there just is today somewhere a 16-year-old, 17-year-old, God forbid, younger girl in so much distress about what the rest of her life looks like because she has only just realised that she's pregnant and she's past the six-week limit.

And I just can't imagine a person, especially if you're going to invoke religion, who thinks that that's an acceptable thing in 2023 to have imposed on a young life. I just don't get it. There isn't an argument that will ever persuade me, I suppose. reading once that you can outlaw abortion or you can attempt to outlaw it but all you'll do is outlaw safe abortion abortion will carry on uh because women and girls are going to need them so all you're doing is potentially risking women and girls losing their lives and poor women always rich women will always be able to fly to a different state you could always get an abortion in london if you were rich um and you know way before the abortion act of 67 i think it was so it's yeah it's all about money and it's all about who you know and anyway um it's a bit of a grim subject but if you do have a view and you are listening in the states do let us know what you think because it's interesting there's so much

else going on in the world and actually so much other news coming out of the states that that part of it isn't really getting the attention in this country that it probably deserves. Yeah. And actually, there is, there's an interesting correlation, isn't there? Because the Green Book was something that came about within a community to help its own community. And I know that in America, there are similar channels, aren't there, for people who want to get an abortion, who are in states where you can't get an abortion, where you'll find a community and perhaps made easier by being online at the moment. But of course, the awful thing is that you make a criminal out of lots of doctors who are trying to help those communities, which doesn't seem fair either.

So you're right. We'd love to hear some more thoughts about it. In fact, you know, people who know more about it than we do. I just want to mention Deborah's email about changing clothes. We were talking about what we've put on. Oh yes, do you go home, change into something a little bit more comfortable? Deborah says she has clear memories of her mum, a full-time housewife in the 70s. She would dress for the day in a blouse, not a t-shirt, and daringly slacks, later a maternity pinafore. She would wear a housecoat with pockets over this while doing the housework, changing it for a waist apron when cooking, there we are apron when cooking, and removing it altogether before leaving the house.

In the evening, she would change into a long dress before cooking dinner for herself and my dad, a habit she continued on Saturday nights beyond the turn of the century. Fabulous. My husband, now retired, would change out of his trousers, shirt and tie, into jogging bottoms and a loose top as soon as he got home from work. It was how he signalled to himself that he was home and could relax. I work from home, so only need to be presentable from the shoulders up for video calls. I hate changing, so on Fridays I wear my PE kit all day because of yoga. Otherwise, I wear jeggings and a nice top from September to May and loose trousers or rarely a skirt. And not quite so nice tops because my summer bottoms are all floral,

keep quiet at the back during the summer. I keep these clothes on all day regardless of activity, putting on a cross back apron when cooking. I hope people are enjoying the detail here. On the rare occasions when I have to don a suit to go into the office, I change into my pyjamas as soon as I get home. I do own a couple of maxi dresses and in very hot weather wear these all day, regardless of what's on the agenda. But change my outfit for the evening? No, thanks. Deborah goes on to say her daughter changes her clothes multiple times a day and has done so since the age of three.

I rather hope she would marry into the upper class and acquire a team of servants to look after her wardrobe requirements. It hasn't happened yet, but she is only 24. It could still happen. Yeah, I love your memories of your mum. I mean, that is old school. A long dress before cooking dinner. Isn't it just? That's fabulous. Gerald, I'll be down in a second. Could you just help me with my buttons?

That's a little bit Margot Ledbetter, isn't it? It is. Very much so. I wonder whether the food tasted better. Was the conversation more enlightened? Maybe if we all returned to a time, Jane, when we dressed for dinner, then our world would be a better place. then our world would be a better place. I'm serving a no-chicken M&S keeve in my trumpet-sleeved long frock.

I think it could work for you. You think people would be more appreciative? Yeah. Okay. I love the detail of the cross-back apron. Yes, very important. Very rare, I think, these days, a cross-back apron. Detail is what we appreciate on this podcast,

so keep those details coming. It's Off Air. That's the name this podcast, so keep those details coming. It's off air that's the name, well you know that, probably. Janeandfee at times.radio is the email address and can we wish you a very good weekend Oh and happy bank holiday because I'm away Yes, don't worry everybody she's back on, when are you back?

Wednesday. Wednesday, meeting Henry Cake now. Okay, and there's an email special coming up tomorrow, or is it Bank Holiday Monday? Monday. The email special is coming away on Monday, and then I'm back with Jane Mulkerrins, Mulkerrins & Garvey, County Mayo's third best estate agents will be with you on Tuesday

on TARDIS Radio. Enjoy. Have a lovely one. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.

Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. I'm sorry.