Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The disappointing journey down a Fab (with Luke Jones)

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Happy Wednesday! It's still hot, so Jane and Eve are moving verrryyy slooowly and calmly. They chat kitchen roll fixtures, carrying your wife – or any wife, really – the charms of Writtle, text punctuality, and cheddar straight from the fridge. Plus, journalist Luke Jones discusses his new investigative podcast series 'The Surgeon of St Helena'. You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/ Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri.  You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Stuff that you might want to order or something. Anyway. Hello. Welcome. Welcome to Offair with Jane and Fee, without Fee. But she's back on Monday and Eve is back today. Hello, Eve. Hello, Jane.

Yeah, hello. That was very, very professionally done. Now, Eve did cop for a bit of a sickie yesterday. When I say that, it sounds judgmental. It does a bit, but there's a surprise. Don't mean it? But you're better today, aren't you? I'm feeling much better, thank you.

I am the picture of health. Well, yes, because you're only very young, you always look the picture of health to me. But it's good to have you back, although Rosie did a reasonable job yesterday in her executive producer role. I heard it was very good. It made me laugh. Did it? Yeah. It was intended to. And of course, it all went to pop because we couldn't have Lisa Jewell, who was our best-selling novelist guest because of the Farage Arama that ensued yesterday afternoon.

But anyway, it was, for me at least, an invigorating day of rolling news radio. It's quite good for me to do that occasionally. Were you knackered? I was ever so tired. I was, I spent force. Did you see that email about a chunk of cheese when you get out? I did, actually. Did you do a bit of that?

I actually just collapsed in a bit of a heap. And I'm finding... You can't even make it to the fridge. I couldn't even stack it to the fridge. I actually, I don't think I could. It's funny because obviously the aircon in the office is brilliant. Yeah. I get through the tube journey home and then I don't have aircon in the house.

And it's just so uncomfortable. Well, that's also partially why I'm back today. Oh, I see. How can you be ill at home? There's just no calling in sick and being at home. It's horrific. It's terrible. It's absolutely.

Unless you live in a fridge, you may as well just come into work. Honestly. I know. But I've got it put into perspective slightly because I was talking to a friend of mine whose mom is French, lives in France. She's in her 80s. And in their part of the country, it's been 44 Celsius. So a lot of elderly people are properly struggling.

And they're just living a kind of half-life. You know, they're not going, the blinds are shut, the shutters are shut. there's no sunlight coming in because they apart from maybe first thing in the morning for an hour or so it's crap isn't it there is even if I get my clothes out for work for the day I have to move really slowly because if I get myself worked up ruffling through my drawers I break into such a sweat you do have to do everything

slowly very slowly very calmly don't ask much of yourself don't get too worked up never do that and that is that is quite a half existence for me I don't well I'm not sure how life is at the moment for people with a short temper. It must be incredibly difficult for them. And actually I was wondering, you know how Fee is just an incredibly fast walker? Very fast. She is a turbocharged bustler. She's just extraordinary. Even she, I think, would be walking at a slightly slower pace around London at the

moment. Because that's the other thing about London generally. It is a busy place. People do move around super quickly, normally. But at the moment, they're not. Everyone just looks on the tube this morning I thought a few people looked like they were about to throw up. It's just horrible. Have you invested in one of those portable fans? I haven't because, but partly because it is a bit of a middle-aged woman cliche, there are, but listen, there's nothing wrong with it. It's not anymore, though, is it?

Isn't it? I don't know. I think the portable fan has been freed as what liberated from the clutches of middle-aged women. Well, that's just not, that's another judgmental thing about middle-aged women, which I don't like. so we can all be judgmental and cross about people who are judgmental. Now, you're a young, you're a feminist, aren't you? Like all right-minded people. Yep, go on.

Okay, well, no, I'm just interested. This has always really made me laugh. This idea of wife-carrying competitions. I love this. Maria has emailed in to just mention an article I did see on the Times.com, yes, still on message, about the wife-carrying competition in Finland over the weekend.

Tastow Mitinen, a Finn considered a legend in the 30-year history in what is described here as a niche sport, said there was another woman in his partnership. The world champions in the fringe world of sport of wife carrying are in fact not married. They're just friends. His partner, a woman called Catcher, herself a three-time champion, is just a pal. My girlfriend understands this is a sport for me, she told me. So we've got a gay woman who takes part in a wife carrying competition. Her partner's okay with it.

She isn't with the bloke who's carrying her. I mean, this is just a whole... If you're... You are in a relationship with a young man. He seems very pleasant from what I can gather, from what you say about him. Thank you. If he said that he wanted to carry you in a competition,

what would you say? I'd say fat chance. Right. But that reminds me, Fat Tony's on the... He'll be on the pod. He's back with us to things with. DJ Fat Tony, yeah. Go on.

It also seems like that you need to have an element of athleticism to be carried. And I don't think I have that. Well, I certainly don't have... I just don't understand. I don't even know how you get into this. Would you take issue if your husband was carrying another woman? Well, he is. And the position is quite compromised.

They've got their legs wrapped around their head and then they're kind of down their back, aren't they? I mean, obviously this man's wife, Tasto's wife, is absolutely fine with all this. And the woman he does carry, her partner, is okay with it too. And she was happy to take... I don't get it. There are similar events, we're told, held in the US, Australia and here in the UK. This year, 60 couples covering 12 nationalities signed up for the main race in Finland in a place called Sankajavi.

And it drew a crowd of 2,000-on-a-half-thousan onlookers, according to the organisers. Contestants must negotiate obstacles, including a water pit, as they sprint around a 253.5 metre track, part of which is sand and gravel. Okay. It does sound like it be quite an entertaining watch.

You think? Yes. Okay. And it goes to show you weren't a million miles off when you were talking about the farmer carrying high rocks. Oh, yeah, that's true. Well, I still stick by my original premise. The Britain's farmers are too busy, particularly at this time of year,

to agree to be carried in any kind of athletic competition. Take your wife instead. Yeah, exactly. Use a wife instead if you're fortunate enough to have one. Now, we mentioned, you probably weren't listening because you were off sick and you were terribly poorly. We did mention a village called Rittal, which is near Chelmsford in Essex yesterday. And a number of people have emailed to make this valuable point. and I just want to draw attention to its significance.

Ellen is one of those people. I had to write in after hearing you mention Rittal. Rittal should be very close to your hearts, as it's where the UK's first regular scheduled radio broadcast began from a small ex-army hut in the village on February 14th, 1922. It's quite amazing. Did you know that? I didn't. Did you?

No. and I'm someone who's so peculiar I have visited a transmitter site so it's not like this isn't an interest of mine. It was operating under the call sign 2MT and the station was led by Marconi engineer Captain Peter Eckersley and it paved the way for the creation of the BBC.

The team in Rittle took a famously informal and entertaining approach. I mean who thought that would ever catch on in broadcasting? Programs featured live concerts, comedy sketches, opera and even a half hour of Morse code practice. I mean, that's how you get ratings, or that's how you got ratings, back in 1922. The popularity of 2MT broadcast forced the government and the post office to recognize

public demand leading to the formation of the BBC later in October of 1922. Okay, so there's obviously a lot about this I really don't know because the BBC is celebrating its centenary I thought this year, so I don't really... Anyway, whatever. Ellen, if you know more, do email in again. Rittal does continue to be a great place to live

and I'd really recommend a visit. I'm now intrigued as to how many off-air listeners might live in Rittle. Well, here's Helen. Dear Jane, I was a student in Chelmsford in the 70s. Oh, she doesn't live there anymore

and I lived in a shared house in Rital. So Helen's moved on, I think. It's a delightful village with a duck pond. God, it sounds lovely. And a village... It doesn't take much to win you over. Mind you, Barnes has got a duck pond. It's a delightful village with a duck pond and a village green

and it's near a beautiful large park, stately home. I also fondly remember the local pub, which we would repair to during the oil crisis when the lights went out. Fantastic. Thank you for that, Helen. If you do live in Rytle currently, and you want to make contact with Ellen, who definitely lives in Rital, please do so. Just let her know that you are around and you live in that part of Essex.

I know you don't remember the oil crisis, do you know? Doesn't ring any bells. I'm sensing an all fair day trip to Rittle. Yeah, maybe we could spend a bit of quality time by the Duck Pond. Yeah, that'd be absolutely gorgeous, take some of those picky bits that are so fashionable. Still can't stand that phrase. There's an article in the Times today about them.

When you were off, you missed National Picky Bits Day. There was outrage. I'm glad I did. what was you what people were supposed to do just eat little yeah it was clearly a marketing drive wasn't it get down to M&S oh yeah and get you picky bits we don't fall for marketing drives we absolutely rise above it now kitchen roll

this is the stuff people want Eve never mind your geopolitic never mind Farage kitchen roll this sounds like a marketing drive yeah actually it could be but Jill has a possible solution to those of us who sometimes feel that that one sheet of kitchen roll is simply too big for the task at hand.

And we've all got to think about the planet. So Jill says, ladies, lie your kitchen roll on its side. Take a carving knife. Please do be careful. Soar through your roll halfway down its length and replace in the dispenser. It's far more eco-friendly.

We'll have to just go with this. She sounds a really sensible woman. I love that I'm not the only one who counteract sleeplessness by re-listening to the works of Jane and Fee in so many ways, listen to this Eve, you are doing the women of this world such a great service. Uniting like-minded women, my 44 and 33-year-old daughters are also inspired by you.

Oh, Jill, actually, that's lovely. That is lovely. No, thank you very much for that. Julia joins from Brisbane. In my opinion, Kitchen Roll is one of humanity's greatest inventions I am an unapologetic devotee. It is absurdly useful. And the sound of tearing off a piece

is frankly one of life's underrated pleasures. I love the idea of the half-sheet kitchen roll. In Australia, we've got something called double-length sheets, see photo. Have you seen that? There we go. Twelve rolls of something called Viva or Viva, double-length 3-D ripple for ultra-fast absorption. Yeah, there's something about the phrase ultra-fast absorption, which I'm not desperately keen on, but very much suggests down under, isn't it?

It really does. I remain a bit baffled, though, she says. If you need a bigger piece, surely you just tear off two sheets. Why are we reinventing the wheel, or in this case, the rectangle? Further complicating matters, Australians don't even call it kitchen roll. They call it paper towels. If you ask for kitchen roll, no one here will. will know what you mean.

I was born in the UK to Welsh parents and moved to Australia when I was 11. It will always be kitchen roll to me. This is the hill I will die on. Quite right. Love you all to bit, she says. Hope Eve is feeling better and Fee is having a glorious Austrian holiday.

Thank you. Do you have your kitchen roll free flowing around the kitchen or is it fixed to the wall? It's not fixed but it is on a little kitchen roll appropriate stump. Oh yeah. Yeah, you know those things. What are they called?

I don't know. I'll stand. Kitchen roll. Kitchen roll direction. No, it's not cruel, though, either. Caroline says, my husband had a pacemaker fitted 20 years ago at the grand old age of 35. Gosh. I promise I have a point, she says.

The surgeon took me to one side after the operation and said that my role was to make sure he didn't get an infection. Otherwise, they would need to open up a new place on his chest for reinsertion. of the pacemaker. Good God, I was horrified. And then on my way home, I saw an ad about hygiene in a magazine. Essentially, it was a huge fork with a fly on it, saying that a teetal had more germs than a toilet seat. So the combination of all that meant that I became quite obsessed with kitchen roll for all things wiping, cleaning, etc. I have long abandoned anything approaching a teetow. It's quite fair enough. I read some very disturbing statistics recently on the common kitchen sponge. Go on.

Apparently they are literally the dirtiest thing in the world. So now I'm wondering, well, they do sit there, don't they? Just kind of soggy, porous harboring bacteria. So now I'm sort of wondering what is the appropriate tool to washing your, cleaning out of dishes? When is a cloth a necessity? But Fee doesn't use kitchen roll. No, she's a boiler, isn't she? She likes to boil.

But that sounds quite, that sounds quite diligent. I don't know where she finds the time. But what are we supposed to be cleaning our dishes with? Well, I've got a, well, I've got a brush. You've got brush. But then I also, but I do put the brush in the dishwasher. Do you? Oh, yeah, very regularly.

Does that not melt the bristles? No. Oh, okay. No, it doesn't. Yeah. Leslie's in Gloucester, heat wave. This might be a widely known trick, but in case it isn't, I wanted to help anyone else who's struggling.

with the same issue I was. I'm trying to get through the heat wave plus the first few weeks of HRT patches. Now the skin on my face and neck is going through what my friend described as chaos. This is obviously a good friend of us who said this. I hope you are still friends. I've got bumps, redness, spots, dry bits and oily bits.

The weather has made it all worse because my skin is constantly clammy. Well, I mean, we totally hear you, Leslie. I get that completely. I recently talked to somebody from a well-known high street skin care shop who gave me this wonderful tip. Put your favourite toner in a spray bottle with three quarters water and one-quarter toner. Got it?

Got it. Yeah. Keep it in the fridge at home or at work if you have one. On a regular basis, spray it on your face and neck and either let it settle or rub it in. It saved my sanity. and vastly improved all of the problems so that I have stopped noticing people staring

when they think I can't see them. I really hope it helps somebody else out there. Leslie, thank you for that. And I'm sorry that you feel that people are staring. I mean, do you know what? It's a difficult one on this, isn't it? Because all of us are very, very self-conscious. I've never believed that anyone isn't self-conscious.

And we all think people are looking at us. And sometimes they probably aren't because they're actually as self-conscious as we are and they're thinking about themselves. But there are times when probably people do think, oh, I wonder what's going on there. Yeah, oh, that looks a bit sore. But yeah, I think it's true that often you are too busy worrying about yourself

and how you're presenting yourself to really actually be looking or critiquing anyone else. And I'm supposed to wear contact lenses, but I don't. So half the time I can't see a metre in front of me. Why aren't you wearing your contacts? Does that mean you can't see me now really? I can see you. Do I look 28?

I can't see you, but if people are in the slightly, you do look, you are looking rather fresh today. If there's someone that I know in the distance, it will take quite a while until they get closer to me. I really am not noticing anyone's flaws because I literally can't see them. They're all blurred out. And actually, until I recently got my prescription,

I thought my skin was really gorgeous. Right. And then I got my glasses and I realized it wasn't quite... Your skin is. as lovely. Just own it. Trust me, she has the Dewey Radio and S of Youth, everybody. Grace is the woman who has sent me the, and it's good this actually. It's from a book by Eleanor Steefel.

It's a lovely new book, according to Grace, and it's called But First Dinner. And she thought that this might resonate with me. And in ordinary, heat wave free times, it absolutely would. This is an extract from Eleanor's book. A moment, please, for supermarket cheddar is the time. title, people, people who do yoga, artistic, properly spiritual people often seem to talk about having a practice. Well, my practice is my daily commitment to eating a slice of cheddar. The way I will every single day, walk through the door, put my bag down, wash my hands, go to the fridge,

pull out the cheddar, cut a slice with a specific knife on a very specific board, and feel the balance of things being instantly restored. I remember seeing a post on Instagram once where someone declared their birthstone to be a chunk of sharp cheddar and honestly it's the same. Right. Eleanor, I don't know Eleanor, but that is me in normal times. I don't know about anybody else. I can't eat strong cheese at the moment. I haven't really... Oh, what's that? Well, it's the heat. I haven't actually got my normal appetite for anything. Are you one of those people? I think that's a very annoying thing to say. What? I've got no appetite.

It's so hot. I just lose my appetite in the heat. No, when I say I've got no appetite, I obviously have breakfast, lunch and my dinner, and I also have a snack before my dinner, Eve. So, yeah, it's just that I'm not having... So I bought some ice creams, and actually, I haven't even wanted to eat those.

Gosh, I've been having a couple of fabs a day recently. A fabs. God. I always thought they promised a lot, but didn't deliver. I sort of agree, and they get worse, the further you get down. The further you journey down, the fab. Remind me, what?

What is at the bottom of a fab? It's just pure ice lolly. It's like the pink bit. Oh, yeah, no. But above that, it's the cream and above that. You've got the sprinkles. You really just want the whole thing to be chocolate sprinkles, really. Oh, yeah.

I wasn't actually aware that fabs were still being sold. Yes. We've had quite a few box in our house share. Oh, right. Right, the way how young people live. She said intelligently. Now, our guest today, we'll bring him in in a minute, but I have got one more email I wanted to mention,

is Luke Jones. Now, Luke Jones is, he's well known to Times Radio listeners, isn't he? He's hosted many a show on Times Radio. He's also the voice of the story podcast, which is available wherever you get your podcast. Now, the story is excellent. It properly fills you in on one big story of the day, and it's always worth your time. And Luke often features on that. But he's also, he's an independent flexi worker, and he goes out and about actually just uncovering some incredible stories.

and his latest podcast series is about the island of Cent Helena and honestly I'm about six episodes deep into this and it's really interesting so hang on because Luke is coming and I think you're going to find this really quite involving what he's got to say about Centrelina we'll find out where it is

and who lives there and all the rest of it during the course of that conversation Sharon has emailed to say I do love you and your many ramblings there is a but oh this is about the book well, she's titled this podcast, Book Club Playground. When listening to your initial advice to the anonymous book club lady,

stuck with a newbie who, quotes, didn't fit in with the group, I had flashbacks to my school playground and the multiple occasions I was frozen out of groups of popular girls because my face didn't quite fit in. My hair was too curly. My teeth had gaps and then braces. I had national health specs. There was a multitude of other reasons,

so frequently pointed out to me. I loved school, but I did spend the majority of it alone or with one friend equally ostracized. Today I've got many friends and I always give people a chance before I decide I don't want to spend time with them. I try to be honest with people

and if they're annoying I have been known to tell them so often they know it about themselves and often agree. Two of them are now really close friends of mine. Still annoying at times but I do love them. Why on earth? can't this group put their big girl pants on and actually have an adult conversation with this new

woman maybe help her to fit in with the group or simply say they don't think she's sharing the same vibe they are and perhaps she might be happy elsewhere have they considered she might be socially anxious and over-egging it in an effort to be liked and accepted okay you're always saying that we don't have to feel worried about turning up alone to your events because the hive is a welcoming place. You've given advice in the past to people in new cities to join a book club. We're all different and maybe if we take the time to find similarities, we'd all be a bit happier. Sharon, thank you for that. She says, thanks for everything you do, except for the book recommendations where the author has written over 20 books. You've got me into Louise Penny and I'm on book 8 so

far out of 20. Wow. Then listen to Fees chat with Peter Granger and his book sound fab, also prolific. So my stack of books to read is climbing higher and higher. Well, that's good and both good and bad for you, Sharon. It can be perhaps a bit challenging. It's another health and safety issue if you have a teetering pile of paperbacks, isn't it? You never know. You've made some interesting points there. And you clearly feel that adults need to be adults

and they need to make an attempt to get on with people. But that might mean occasionally that you have to have some up there out there full and frank conversations with people about the way they conduct themselves. Do you think that is a generational thing? Do you think your age group are better at, I don't know, just talking about how people conduct themselves or do you think you're as bad as we are?

I think we're worse, but I think now these conversations maybe happen over text. Oh, right. And I think in that way you can almost be more direct, but you're being so less direct because you don't have to face them. So maybe tougher conversations are had But they just take the form of text

In a different way of God Which is maybe more hurtful But also does it save face Have we still got the issue With full stops being thought of as passive-aggressive? Or they just are, Jane. You just use commas What?

You just use commas What you should do? Yeah, that's what I'll either write A long text with commas Or I'll send multiple small texts I can't keep up with this. We have somehow secured an interview with reclusive podcaster Luke Jones,

host of the story, and also it has to be said, and I don't praise talented young people easily, a genuinely gripping new podcast series called The Surgeon of Centrelina. Can I have that in writing? No. Welcome, Luke. Now, it's worth saying that your other series

was the Pitcairn trials. Just because I also, I mean, I was going to say, I didn't enjoy it, but I did listen to it. Have you sort of cornered the market in terrible events in very remote and remote places? Yeah, I'm hoping for a tip off about the British Virgin Islands or Bermuda or somewhere like that so I can go and investigate it. Yeah, well, because I started that Pick Home War, which I came to talk to you about, well, I've been two years ago now. And it was after that, and that was sort of investigating these quite awful child sexual abuse trials that happened on this little island in the South Pacific in the early 2000s. And we had, you know, people had never really spoken before on tape.

And it was after listening to that that loads of people got in touch saying, well, you should look at this island, you should look at this, come and look at this. And one of them was about St Helena. So the hope is now releasing this one. Someone will get in touch about a different, maybe sunnier island.

Well, the Isle dogs. It's not funny. What happened on Pitcairn is truly terrible. And St Helena, we'll talk about what's gone on there in a moment. But first of all, where is it? How does anybody get there? Yeah. So if you imagine the world map

and you look at the South Atlantic and put your finger right in the middle. So it is in the absolute middle of nowhere. To get there now, as I did for reporting on the podcast, you would fly from London to Johannesburg and then get one of the weekly flights that goes from Johannesburg over to St Helena. It is a weekly flight.

The airport is very temperamental. So as I found sometimes, you know, the flights just aren't on. Back in the day, you'd go on a long ship from Cape Town. But even though they do have internet access and things, you do when you're walking around the place, it feels absolutely far from the UK. And yet there are pictures of the Queen, there are Union flags flying, the secondary school no longer called the Prince Andrew Secondary School, but used to be.

It is very, you know, they say about the falcons, don't they? They're more British than the British, they're very aware of their British identity, even if it is tropical looking. And I thought I didn't know anything about it. Couldn't possibly have ever done an interview about Centrelina. And of course I had done an interview about the elderly tortoise. I thought you were going to say you interviewed Napoleon. No, I'm not quite that old.

God. So remind us about the absurdly old tortures. Oh, yeah. So he's called Jonathan. He's 193 years old, or maybe 194 now. I think he's just had a birthday. And he has the Guinness World Record for being the oldest living terrestrial animal ever. Obviously, there are sharks, I think, which are many, many years older.

But it's this enormous tortoise that lives at the governor's mansion, plantation house and he just waddles around when you look at him up close i mean you think what a tortoise looks like he does look prehistoric um but the groundskeeper there told me he you know enjoys the sun is still eating grass he's still having um relations with the other tortoises around i heard that unlikely claim in the podcast and i'm not i'm not sure but it's a nice thought i mean i'd take quite a mean thing get near it does hiss quite loudly at you it's quite terrifying right so um we've established that the years have not been kind to him and there have been many years also of course you mentioned Napoleon in a very rude way to me

but Napoleon was exiled to St Helena by the English and the whole point is because it was so remote so they first exiled him to Elba managed to get off and raise a rebellion so they thought okay where can we put in which is really remote and they landed on St Helena and actually north of St Helena is an island called Ascension that people might have heard of there's a big military base there at BBC World Service has a relay station there and then there's also Tristan Dacuna to the south

and because Napoleon was on St Helena, that is why those two islands, far to the north, far to the south, are also British because they thought we need some troops in case the French come. Yeah, I thought I'd been to his tomb in France, but... Oh, yeah, so he was... Napoleon was exiled there and did die there after six years.

Got very big into gardening. The garden there at Longwood House, it's called, is still very lovely, but also was very bald. There's some suggestion that he might have died because of arsenic in the wallpaper, all these kind of strange stories about him. But he was buried in this little plot on the island, but then about 20 years later, don't quote me,

when there was a daint with the French, part of the deal was, well, you can exhumed Napoleon and take him to somewhere in Paris, isn't it? Yeah, he's got a very grand tomb. Okay, so the residents of Centalina, who are they? Who are they descended from?

Are there people who originated there? What's the story? So they are, well, they're British citizens, and for the vast majority, they are descended from slaves from the East Indies who were brought there because St Helena was actually first landed upon and colonised properly by the British.

There wasn't a native population there. There were some people who had trade ships who would stop off there, but it is really a product of the slave trade and of the East India company. So if you're on St. Helena at the moment, you are likely descended from one of those slaves or from some of the many British people

who have landed on there, but also now it's an increasing mix of people who are just really into islands there was one guy staying there who is just an Australian and was on a yacht and travels the world and landed on Cent Helena a few years ago and just decided to stay. So it's an interesting mix. Now you have written about

this and I think you described it as looking inland, not unlike the peak district. Yeah. So if you go around the outside of the island which I did on a boat it looks volcanic well because it is a big old volcano really steep cliffs and you think this looks like a part of the moon or something

really sort of tropical and otherworldly. go into the interior of the island and you could be in the Derbysh dales. It is beautiful rolling hills. There are chickens. There are cows. Very green, very misty. But then you go to some other parts and all of a sudden it gets very dry looking and barren and there's houses that look like, you know, they could be in parts of Africa I've been to before or Asia.

It's to say it's such a small place. It's such variety. And what do the residents do? For work. Yeah. Can they farm? There's not much farming. They do grow coffee.

there, the vast majority of the workforce work for the government. That is one of the issues. It's not necessarily like a former British colony where there is a cash crop that is the reason that it existed. It only ever existed as a stop-off point for East India company ships that were moving around. And when they stopped stopping, there wasn't really an industry there to support them.

So they have struggled quite a bit with trying to get fishing properly off the ground. Lots of people do sort of odd jobs to do with tourism, but the tourism trade isn't necessarily massive. It's quite difficult to get to, quite expensive to get to as well. So that is one of the issues that quite a lot of the population are just dependent on having some kind of public sector jobs. And we're getting close to the heart of what your podcast series is about because this is a small place. It's governed by the British from Britain, effectively. There is a governor.

He's a man currently, Nigel Phillips is his name. And you do say in the series that, I mean, this isn't Washington, D.C. or Paris. This is a role that tends to be given to people, to be blunt about it, who might be edging towards the doormarked exit? Well, this is what one of the islanders said to me. They said, you know, whenever we last had a governor or an attorney general who was on the up. And I guess part of the problem is that, well, obviously, it's very far. It's difficult to necessarily get people who you'd want to work in some of these places, as beautiful as it is. But you do end up with a situation where you have a population who live on the island,

who are living on an average of 11,500 pounds a year. then you have a lot of imported Brits or people from other parts of the Commonwealth. They're doing big jobs like the governor or the attorney general or certain sort of technical jobs. And they can be on 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 times as much. So there's quite a divide that has been baked in for many years. Right. Now, the surgeon who is at the centre of this, the podcast series is called the Surgeon of Centrelina, is a man called Sergio Villatoro Bran.

Now it's worth saying that as you say frequently throughout the series you've tried to get a statement from him He hasn't ever acknowledged your existence Is that true? I tried to follow my Instagram Didn't work I've tried his solicitor, tried, yeah His office, his WhatsApp We tried many many many different ways to get in touch with him

Right, how did you find out about him then? So this whole issue with him has been bubbling for a few years But obviously being such a small place so far away Not many people have paid attention to it So after we released the Pitcairn series about different Ireland in the South Pacific, someone who's sort of tangentially related to this story sent me an email saying, you know, there's this whole business going with the surgeon, you need to look into it. And it is not just what happened with the surgeon.

He came from Guatemala to be the orthopedic surgeon there from 2015, 16 until about 2020. And he is accused in that time of seriously injuring, maiming, disabling people. But then the way it was then handled afterwards. And the person sold it to me as, you know, imagine it's a crime story that turns into a mini tropical post office scandal. Because that's the sort of second half of the story, how it's been dealt with or not. Right, okay. Just wonder, oh, a couple of questions for you. Alistair says, is it near Tristan Dacuna.

Yes, so just north. So Tristan Ducon is even further south and even more remote because they don't have an airport. 250 people live there. You might remember that was recently where some paratroopers dropped doctrines and medical supplies after the anti-virus crews stopped there. Okay, and Theresa says, has Luke forgotten to mention the flax industry? Flax, which was very important to the island economy. Yes, so that was something they grew, which was very useful for twine. One of the big issues for the island was when the Royal Mail at some point in the last century

stopped using flax for their twine and that immediately killed off that trade. Wow, honestly, this stuff is genuinely fascinating. Let's go back to the surgeon, because you do include in the series, honestly, some horrific examples. of the so-called treatment that this man meted out. Tell us about Mario, who's a disabled person. He's now in his 40s. He has cerebral palsy. And his elderly parents are trying to look after him.

Yeah. There are a family called the Peter's family. They live. The parents were born and raised, St Helena. Lovely couple called Gillian Patrick. They have a son, Mario, as you say, he's now in his sort of mid-forties, born with cerebral palsy to the extent that he can't talk, can't really hear. but could walk.

And, you know, if your parent looking after a disabled child, that is such a help because he could wander around the house. If he needed some food, he could do that. Getting him out of bed, washing him was a manageable thing. He then, one day, coming back from some respite care, there was some kind of accident where they were told that he stubbed his toe. He seemed to be in pain. They realised it was actually to do with his knee,

and it was really swollen, and they tried for weeks to get this surgeon, Dr. Sergio, to properly look at it. had a massive delay in even x-raying the knee. When he finally did, it was a fracture. You'd think of this poor middle-aged man can't even communicate the fact that he's in such pain and where it is. And then when this surgeon reset the knee, the fractured knee,

and then put it in a boot, as would be sort of normal here, if that kind of fracture, he set it at an angle. So his leg was going out to one side. And the mum recounts to me that, you know, they said to him, you know, his leg didn't look like that. And the surgeon was quite dismissive and said, yeah, you'd go out at an angle like that. Anyway, it then resetting that position.

to the extent that he can't now, not only can't walk, but he can't even bear his weight on that leg. So if you imagine two people, two elderly parents trying to look after this middle-aged man, you know, they're having to devise bits of kit. The dad had built this sort of wooden thing to help him get it out of bed.

And actually is with all of the solicitors who was on the island when I was there who's working with them. They said, and yet you still look at Mario and he is the cleanest, most well-looking, after, cared for person you could ever imagine, and yet with all this extra added stress and faf and complication because of this surgeon. Right. I mean, we could talk about other examples. There is a woman who had a pin

inserted into her arm by this doctor. What happened to her? So she, like lots of people, I bet that, you know, the worst people who I did meet who had instances with him where they said, oh yeah, it was sort of fine, he sort of sorted me out. But obviously there were lots of these stories where it didn't go like that. And one of the common things was people would go for some kind of procedure. He said, you'll be fine a few days. And then they weren't. This woman had enormous amounts of pain in her arm to the extent that she kept going back to the hospital.

Eventually, they said, right, well, we'll medivac you out to Johannesburg to properly look at it. And when this person said, well, I just bandaged this bleeding elbow that she had months after the fact, after this pin was put in, he raised her arm. And the pin, which was described as being the size of a knitting needle, fell out of her arm. which is not normal, not what should happen. And this woman to this day, you know, still has problems and all these people have, that's a problem you sort of think, well, it's all that happened to them in the first place,

but also it's then how do you live with it? If you can't properly lift your arms anymore, she was having to have clothes, especially adapted, so she could even dress herself. When people tried to get help, when they raise concerns about this man, what happened? So I was told by the police officers, there were some British police who went out to investigate him

to help the investigation, and they said to me that when they were, investigating house was handled at the hospital. They were told by people that concerns were raised, but that they were just ignored. These people were told, you know, Dr. Sergio knows what he's doing. Leave off it. We did put all this to the hospital in the government. They said they didn't want to comment on any of this. But eventually it did get to the point where he was suspended. There was a disciplinary. And he fled the island. So that problem stopped. But then it became clear and clearer the scale of the problem because one of these people who were, was involved, actually the woman with the pin in her arm, said to these British police officers when they were leaving to return to the UK, get us help from the UK, please, from off the island. And that is how this law firm based in the UK got involved to try and launch this civil claim, because even though he was eventually charged with five counts of unlawful wounding and pled guilty to that, return to the island to face those charges, there are lots and lots of other people who weren't

included in that criminal trial, who need some help. Yeah. We need to ascertain he was a doctor. He was a qualified doctor. Yes. On his Instagram, there were pictures of him with his certificates from a university in Guatemala, trumpeting that. But, you know, there were concerns about people out, I was speaking to somebody. Only the other day who got in touch with me after listening to the podcast series, who was one of the people not in, they're not in the series, but they had had to look into him at some point. And they said, yeah, I could never actually get to the bottom of whether he did complete his training. we did put some of this to Dr. Sergio, as you said, he didn't get back to us.

And you look at his resume now, and there are certain things in there which don't add up. He says he has experience in institutes and hospitals and universities which don't exist. He now on his resume trumpets his experience in the United Kingdom. Really? He hasn't worked in the United Kingdom. He's worked on St Helena, which is a British overseas territory, but he's marketing himself as a doctor with experience in the UK. I mean, if I was going to be very generous, I'd obviously say that,

it must be very difficult, as you mentioned earlier, to attract some people to work in these circumstances. Yes. That sort of goes without saying. Absolutely. So they do, you know, struggle to get people with skills. There is a lot to attract people to the island. You know, if you want to live on a tropical island with these beautiful, pristine volcanic waters, a nice lifestyle, and, you know, you're willing to move away from the hustle and bustle of living in the UK, you know, I'm sure there are people who would like that. and the money is good to attract people from abroad. But it does seem like they struggle.

One person said a lot of the people who come over are sort of driftwood, is how they would have termed them. And one man actually got in touch with me while I was making the series who sort of got wind of what I was up to. And he described his experience of going out as a Brit many years ago for a number of years to do a contract. And he said it was just sort of useful British people going out there. And he said, and I include myself in that.

He said, you know, I wasn't very good with falling on hard times. I thought, well, you know, I'll do this contract because no one else really hire me. And he said, and that's what I saw when I got there with other people. Which, again, that's about, that's about the issue at hand here, which is the way Britain treats residents of these, well, what are they in law? Overseas territories. Overseas territories. So what does that mean for the people who live there? So it means different things, but they are, they are British citizens. So they've got British passports. They have every right to come in, live here and work here. They've got the same passport pretty much as you and I. But, I mean, some of them make lots of them.

of money. Obviously, you know, in a place like BVI, where there are more companies registered than people living there. They make lots of money. Hang on, British Virgin Islands, but I'm pardon. But then there are places like St Helena, which rely on a lot of foreign aid, even though it isn't technically foreign. But the status of those people is, you know, they are, even though they have got a little local government who can legislate for them, the governor, who is someone sent by London, can disallow laws if They want to. The UK Parliament can pass legislation and it affects them. They have no say in it. And how much oversight is there? Because the minister who we tried to speak to for this series and they turn down our request in the Foreign Office is the Minister for the Overseas Territories, but also for Europe and North America, which are not unbusy patches.

What? So how much attention can you give to? St Helena. Something that's happening on St Helena. Yeah, I mean, I should have asked you earlier. The total population is what? About 4,000. 4,000 people. Okay. It isn't a great number. a surprising number of those people had operations. That's what's so extraordinary.

600, they thought were operated on by Dr. Sergio in his time. How? Yeah, quite. So we worked out the maths and the rate as compared to England is a lot higher. And that's one of the things that people pointed out saying, you know, was no one just looking at it and thinking, well, why is he operating on so many people? Is it not too much?

One of the first people who successfully raised concerns about him, I understand, was a physio, who was seeing all these people going in for orthopedic surgery, but they weren't getting any referrals for anybody for anything similar. So even just on the sort of maths level, maybe alarm bells should have been wrong. Where is the man now? Is he still operating as a doctor? Yep. So after he returned to St Helena to face these five criminal charges that he pled guilty to, he then left, even though all this legal wrangling is going on at the moment,

he has returned to Guatemala and as I understand it, looking at his online presence, is still working as a surgeon. As I say, sort of trumpeting himself as being somebody with the working in the United Kingdom. And, you know, they're still posting photographs on his Instagram with him, so been scrubs, operating on people, so perhaps very busy. This is a pertinent gag from Bill, who's in Canada. Hi, Jane. What do you call the person who finishes at the bottom of his medical class?

Answer. What? Doctor. I mean, it's thought-provoking stuff that, Bill. Thanks, Bill. That's cheered everybody up. You can't get an appointment anyway, can you? So I wonder where else are you going to go after this?

You did go to Centalina, didn't you? Yeah, fabulous place. Is it? Yeah, really beautiful. I looked at the climate and actually it's incredibly temperate. In fact, the way things are in the UK, I was thinking, oh, well, you know. They have no central heating. Right.

You don't need it. Because it never goes below. It never gets that cold. But it never gets that warm. But that's fine. Yeah, I know. Isn't it? Yeah.

Well, yeah, I suppose so. And the wildlife around it, I mean, on one of the days, oh, and I don't have much to do, I went out on this boat, going around the island's edge. And there are, you know, there are rays swimming. There is a whale shark that I swam with. It is sort of quite a magical, tropical place. So as someone says in the series, actually,

if everything's going okay for you, it can be a beautiful place to live. One of the interviewees who's been quite active in this story runs the Human Rights Commission there. And she moved from... Teaside. Was it? Oh, no, that's the current chief minister.

She's from Tyside. No, the Human Rights Commission is from, South Hampshire, I can't remember. and she hasn't left the iron since 2016. So even though she's dealing with all these problems and seeing the worst of it, there is still a love that exudes for the place. And I met all these people who had moved away, there's an enormous saint population in Swindon,

but on one particular evening I met these two women back to back who now lived in the UK but were there just visiting. And I said, when did you come here to visit? And it was back end of 2024. And they're still sort of toying with staying, such as the pull. Luke Jones. And honestly, if you do, just want a slice of a very different sort of life. I really do recommend his podcast,

the Surgeon of St Helena. And if you have anything to add to Luke's story there and his investigations, I'm sure he would be very pleased to hear from you. But you can contact him, I'm sure, via us, Jane and Fee at times.com. Now the guest tomorrow, and I can say this with real certainty because I've done the interview, and it was interesting, it's with Mark Foster, British swimming legend and he's someone who well he's got a lot to say about his childhood

about homophobia in sport about what it's like to be hugely successful at one thing whilst basically feeling that you can't be entirely honest about your whole self so it's also worth saying that Mark Foster is 6 foot 6

6 and you are how tall not 6 foot 6 about 5 foot 1 and a half and yes Yes, we did take a photograph. So he's written a very interesting and quite unusual sporting memoir because, let's be honest, some books about sport can be a bit turgid. Not his book, I've got to say.

So Mark with us tomorrow. Please do join us then. And if you are in the heat, I hope you're surviving it. And if you're in the UK and it's not that hot way you are, please do let us know how angry you are or how relieved. We'd welcome that correspondence, wouldn't we? Right, see you tomorrow. Was that long enough?

Was it? 25 minutes. Okay. Did it fly by? Good. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times. Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.