Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The hotel freebie tingle (with Shirley Ballas LIVE at Cheltenham Literature Festival)

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

Jane and Fi have ventured out of Times Radio Towers and are coming to you from Cheltenham Literature Festival today! Their main questions include: what's for dinner? And will my bed be facing the right way in my hotel room?  They're joined by Shirley Ballas: head judge on Strictly Come Dancing, one of the world's best dancers, and now, novelist. You can pre-order her new book 'Murder on the Dance Floor' at timesbookshop.co.uk.  If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]  Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi  Assistant Producer: Megan McElroy  Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Off-Air from the Cheltenham Literature Festival. Not literary. If people say literary, they're wrong. It's Literature Festival. And I was told by one of the organisers today, Fi, that this is the oldest literature festival. You know that other one that people go on about? I know, well, I overheard that conversation, but you were very, very firmly put in your place, but it's because you'd mentioned Hay. I should totally say it. No, don't.

No, there's absolutely no festival in Hay. No. No. Why would there be? It's in the middle of nowhere. So it's the Cheltenham Literature Festival, and that's where we are today and tomorrow. We've got a superb guest coming up for you.

It is Shirley Ballas, who didn't disappoint. No, I mean, some people just come with additional bells and whistles, don't they? And Shirley Ballas is one of those people. Although, as you drew out of her in the conversation, she is not without her, well, how would you describe it? She's quite there are aspects of her life that she's like a lot of women and some men

she's very insecure about. But do you know what I really admire her for? Is her ability to talk about it because actually she could be doing the everything's worked out for me routine if she wanted to. She's had a spectacular career in dance. She's won all the trophies.

She's been married several times. She's got a lovely family of her own. And she looks amazing. So she could be going, well, ka-ching, you know, I've won the lottery of life. But actually in every single realm of her life, all of those things have come at a bit of a cost, I think. And one of the most revealing things, and we shouldn't give away too much of the interview,

but when she talks about how she feels about how she looks, I find that amazing and I admire her for being able to talk about it so openly because she is not as positive about her appearance as somebody who looks like her should be. No, and it's also very interesting that I think she slightly underplays the pressure she is under as a prominent woman on very popular television. And of course, we know that there's now a court case involving another very prominent female television presenter. This is terrible. You know, there shouldn't be this sort of hideous attention

around people who've simply got to the top of a very competitive profession. And what Shirley has to put up with in terms of the abuse she was getting, I mean, for God's sake, people, she's judging a dance show. Get a grip. She's doing exactly what she's been asked to do. And she's doing it really well. And actually, she's not doing it with kind of, you know, nastiness or venom or being malicious or whatever.

She's doing it really thoughtfully and carefully. So I'm just appalled that she is just supposed to just deal with the kind of crap that she was getting. Anyway, she now employs somebody else to handle her social media for her. Yeah, a very nice young man called Harry. Good on him. I love it when you're appalled. I am.

Yes, you're always in your most robust form when you're being appalled. Yes. Right, janeandfeeattimes.radio. We've got to be honest, because we're still sitting in this book. It's quite strange. It does feel a bit weird.

And there were lots and lots of straggly groups of schoolchildren earlier. And, of course, they are a little rumbustuous and let loose in a bookshop. They were very careful to ignore us completely, I thought. Well, of course you would. Well, you would. Two middle-aged women sitting there looking like they're trying to land a plane. Two alpidies over there with a couple of computers.

We're going to walk on past pretty quickly. And they did. But there were a couple of curious onlookers who hung around a bit. We've also met some lovely people, including some people, Fi, who did the really decent thing and only went and bought our paperback. Still on sale, everybody. Come on. Christmas is coming.

And what could be nicer than a fresh-ish copy of Did I Say That Out Loud? Underrated. Can we mention Chris, who is Veronica's friend, because we bumped into Veronica at the train station, actually, and she had already failed to meet Chris. They're very, very long-standing friends, know each other from school,

but she'd gone out the wrong exit of Cheltenham train station, and it turns out we had too. So we had a very nice chat with her, but she did say that Chris had been really, really miffed that that had happened. But we did wave at Chris as she walked past there. But there you go, Chris. You've got the very special mention in the podcast, not Veronica.

But they both seem like particularly lovely women. And Veronica's got two adult children who are now living abroad. I mean, very abroad as well, Jane. Very abroad. Very abroad, yes. I think that's quite a thing, actually, and maybe we'll talk about that in future podcasts. Juliet says, I'm a long-time listener, second-time emailer. I live close to Cheltenham, but I

can't make it to see you this week as I'm working. Please come back again next year. Well, God willing, we will be, and I will definitely come then. I cannot recommend a book. Oh, no. Is it a place? No, it's a cafe. The Artisan Baker. Enough. It also overlooks a lovely park. I was there two days ago.

Cakes, coffee and sandwiches, all amazing. Okay. That sounds like it's a recommendation we should pay attention to. What do you fancy eating tonight? So we're on what is known in the trade as an OB, an outside broadcast. And if you imagine that we've got our own Winnebago, or somebody comes in and offers us a menu and asks us what we'd like for dinner, that's not how it goes.

So we've got to find somewhere to eat tonight. And there'll be you, me and Rosie, because Kate's gone off with her mum. It's very selfish. I think it's very selfish. I don't know what Simon's doing. But he might want to come along. He might not. He hasn't.

He's keeping his face as, yeah. He's engineering, but he might want to come along. He might not. He hasn't. He's keeping his face as, yeah. I don't think he wants to come. He's engineering. He doesn't want to come. Okay. Fair enough. We understand. I'm sure there's some football on.

Don't worry about it. That's a terribly pejorative. I'm sorry. Yes. Well, it could be me, actually, staying in to watch the football. Well, it would. What would I like? I basically don't care, but I'm thinking carbs.

Obviously, I hardly eat any carbs, but I wouldn't mind a pizza. Also, I'm in that pre... You say you don't care, but actually, if we got it wrong and it was something that you didn't like, Rosie and I would really pay for it. Well, I wouldn't throw my telly out of my hotel room. I'm in that stage of... No, but you'd make your face.

I want to see my hotel room. It's always a bit of a tingle, isn't it? I mean, you haven't even been to the hotel, have you? No, not on this trip. I want to know whether there are any freebies. I want to know whether I've got a bath and a shower. I want to know whether I've got tea-making facilities for the morning. I'm just a gog.

I know exactly what you mean. And I also want to know which way the bed's facing. All of that. And can I open my window? And if I can't, then there will be trouble. Well, it's a very... It's not a modern hotel. What? No, so I think we might be all right. my window and if I can't then there will be trouble well it's a very it's it's a um it's not a modern hotel what no so I think we might be all right oh okay yes so there'll be sash windows yeah I very much hope so because you know what I mean about the bed Jane because sometimes when I

walk into a hotel room it's just the bed is facing the wrong way and it's and it's not that it has to face the window or some kind of feng shui or anything like that it's just it's going the wrong I can't sleep the wrong way. It's like going backwards on a train. I can't do it. I'm not swapping. I think it's time to bring in Shirley Ballas. I really do.

And what was great about Shirley was that she arrived in the most wonderful emerald green trouser suit, which I absolutely loved, and a white T-shirt. And actually, if you're ever wondering, as a slightly older woman, what to wear for something, I think Shirley Ballas's outfit when

she arrived today is a great guide so a really nice emerald green bright trouser suit with a very simple round neck white t-shirt what are you wearing no she looked brilliant and i wish i could dress more like that we'll just go and buy a suit with a white t-shirt all right but you're right she did look absolutely flat. I was only trying, I was bigging up Shirley Ballas and you had a pop at me there. Anyway,

she then changed to go on stage, didn't she? She did. Yeah. But I thought her on stage outfit was nicer. No,

I preferred the first one if I wanted. Anyway, let's not fool up with Shirley. Oh. Oh. She, because she's got

emerald green trousers on. That will be it, yeah. God, maybe she maybe she did that's so thoughtful isn't it oh brilliant okay uh so uh shirley ballas can i just tell you a couple of things about her which might be relevant actually and we just need to set the scene uh she is a seven times u.s latin american champion three three times British Open to the World champion, which we didn't really know what that meant, but she comes to explain it, and multiple British national champion. And we know her obviously now as the wise judge on Strictly Come Dancing. She has added to that list of achievements a new novel. It's a thriller, it's kind of crime fiction, and it's set in the world of dance.

She invites the reader of Murder on the Dance Floor to immerse themselves in the ballroom and Latin world. And we join the cast of the novel at the Whitby Pavilion, which is, to quote, saturated with hopes, dreams and hearts pumping with venom, tensions every bit as taut as the dancers' sequined bra straps. It's a rip-roaring read, which does tell the dark side of the dream. So that's drugs, sexual predators, not an awful lot of food, strained relationships, scaffolders from Liverpool and the kind of ambition that can kill. So we started by asking Shirley if she'd always wanted

to get all of that down on paper. I know everybody here, you always see the glitz and the glamour, that side of Strictly, and you know, perhaps you're also dancers and you see the glitz and the glory of everything that goes on. But behind the scenes, in my experience, my personal experience over 50 years, it's rather more sinister. So there is another side to ballroom dancing. And when I wrote my autobiography, if many people read that behind the sequins, there was so many stories that I couldn't write or that was a question mark. Oh, you can't say that. Oh no, you can't do that. So it was no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then after I did my autobiography and I was chatting to my mum, I said, wouldn't it be great to be

able to put some of these stories in a fiction book, you know, like a murder on the dance floor. So mum and I were just sitting in the kitchen, setting the scene, you know. My mum was remembering stories and I was remembering stories. And then, of course, HarperCollins reached out and I thought this would be a great time to let people know what goes on behind the scenes.

So it is quite sinister. There are joyful parts, you know. It's sex, lies, intrigue, backstabbing, bed hopping, manipulation, bullying. It's all those things. And ballroom dancing. It all goes, you've got the ballroom dance and then you've got this side. So it's all a rather interesting read. I tried to pick some really great characters. What I want the audience, and I want you all to Instagram me, by the way, please. Did I take part in it did I witness it which parts are true which parts are fiction so this book like I say it's a fiction novel but I have 50 years of experience so I'm going to pull on those 50 years of experiences

and not all the experiences were great so tell us a little bit more about some of the main characters in the book and of course we've got to start with Lily. I play Lily. So I am Lily. And Lily is a person that is always trying to strive forward to do her best, a lot for other people. I love it when I, you know, even in Strictly, some of the past dances that have been on that you've started with them when they're children and you see them grow.

That's my role. I love to see people do well. And then there's a lovely character in there called Susie Cooper. She was my student, but bullied out of the industry, different things about her weight. Anyway, she got out of the industry and she went on to be a detective. So part of the way through the book, we team back up again because Oksana Bondarenko. Don't you just love that name? Let me tell you. Oksana Bondarenko was doing a very, very passionate tango. And just as she's getting into the throes of it with Jack, she drops dead on the floor, lights out, over. Now, so Susie and Lily decide, okay, who could have possibly

murdered this wonderful Oksana Bondarenko? So that's where it all starts. And I think it's quite interesting. Other than murder, although we have had one murder in our industry, but other than murder, you know, you have to just decide for yourself. Was I part of it? Did I witness it? or is it fiction some of the names in the book are fantastic there's a character called Topaz Pringle I rather now I've got my notes here you know because I have CRS can't remember so yes we've got Topaz and she is the daughter of Scouter Sam she's very entitled very privileged and we have a lot of that in our industry so when I started out with a single

mother on a housing estate you know my mother told me nothing in life is for free every single thing you ever do in your life you must earn don't expect handouts don't expect people to be there for you and I lived my life by that but in in our industry, it's changed times. And there's lots of people who feel like they should get results. And why can't they get results even when they're only of average talent? And that's not just in my industry, it's in every industry. You know, people complain, but actually the talent is mediocre, but they think their talent is great. So she's an entitled person and unfortunately she will also die there are as you've already alluded to some rather unpleasant men on the scene in your book and certainly men who are using their positions of power and influence to be a

little bit exploitative and then some and Lily says quite early on in the book that she hadn't been given so much as a whisper of a say as regards her career or her body men did that but she was the boss of her own vagina now. You're allowed to say that on the radio in the afternoon. Well, it's a medical term, so yes. But I wonder in all seriousness, whether that is a feeling that you have had in your time and perhaps when you were a much younger woman. Well, I'll take it in the fiction part.

Yes. So again, you will have to guess. I have a character in there called Marmaduke, who's a bully, who is the president of the GDC, which is the dance council. And he tends to, you know, be the boss and lords it over. You know, as many of you have read before in my industry, at one point I was so bullied that I was actually going to get out of my industry. And I chatted with my son and there was people stopping my work and this, that and the other. And then I must've done something right because then Strictly landed at age 57. So just when I'm moving out of the industry, this landed and it gave me this lovely platform. But there was a lot of bullying, true life bullying.

You read it in my autobiography as well. So yes, he's not such the nicest character, Marmaduke. Don't forget that name. Yes, he's kind of not the nicest guy in town. He's not, is he? Actually, Shirley, he's really not. But do you think, and we should talk much more about your early years and about your childhood, which I think anybody who has read about would simply congratulate you on having got through it and decided to be so purposeful with your life.

Because actually, your father seemed to be slightly addicted to maybe other things and getting married again and having more children and I get the sense that there was a bit of you not feeling like you fitted into something throughout quite a bit of your childhood which can have a long-standing effect in adult life well my dad left when I was two so I don't really didn't have much to do with it my mother was the first wife by the way he had four after that and more children but my mother used to say I was the first. So I don't, didn't overly know him well, even though, you know, some little time I spent with him later on in his life, it was pleasant, but we didn't know each other, you know. So I suppose my mum was like the dad. We lived on the house in the state. She was the mum. She was the friend. She lives with me today and I love it.

She's just a very, very special person who taught me, you know, about work ethic and all things that go with that. But it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy, you know. And somebody said to my mum, you're actually shouldn't be spending all that money on that child. She's never going to get off the house in a state. She'll never amount to anything. And anyone who read the autobiography, there's one line in it that she wrote, I guess I backed the right horse. So, you know, she had four jobs to keep me going. You know, she wanted to see me do well. My dad didn't have anything really to do with that. My brother, before he passed, was a big cheerleader for me. Yeah, and it was a difficult industry. But when you're growing in an industry like that,

to be honest, you don't really know it's a difficult industry because you're seven and you're growing and things are going on. And back then, you know, what's acceptable back then is certainly not acceptable today. So I go back and I look at those times and I think, you know, my younger self, if I'd have had a voice, then you would have spoken up. But it's past and it's a learning experience and I just keep moving forward. experience and just keep moving forward and is it just too naive and kind of uh you know psychologically blunt to think that actually uh dance takes the place of a wider family in lots of people's lives so actually if you do come from somewhere where your dad's left and all of that the world of dance can wrap you up in something well I believe in fate I do

you know that church hall that day here in the music moon river and the wheels cha-cha that I know what those dances are now but as a young girl I headed towards this door and I peeped through the window and I could see these people moving and then I asked the gentleman you have children's classes yes we start on Saturday. So off I went to this children's class, but I wouldn't have known anything about anything else. I was doing CPR, which I wasn't doing well on the dummy. And the next thing I know, I'm listening to music

that just embodied my whole being and went home to my mum and said, we haven't got a lot of money, but if I can do that, I think that is what I really want to do. And the only time I ever had off from seven till 63 was the time I had my son, maybe six weeks when he was born. Other than that, I've always danced. I've always listened to music.

And I just think it was my calling. So I can't say that anything influenced that. I wouldn't say I had any. I'm raised by a single mother. That's all I knew, except for the kids at school. You haven't got a dad you're on welfare you know all that my brother took badly I thought it was funny got free dinners you know who doesn't love a free dinner so um yeah I didn't know any different

really it's only now that I'm older and I actually look back on my life I can see this I can see that this wasn't shouldn't have happened that shouldn have happened. Maybe I should have taken a different course, you know. Maybe getting married twice and engaged once was, maybe I was searching for something to love me. You know what I'm saying? So Jane and I really want to talk about Corky. Corkito. Corky.

So say it again, please. Corkito. His name is Mark Alexander Ballas. That's the same name as my son. But his dad, there's five children in that family his dad invented the weed eater when you do the weed eater the strimmer i married into that family and uh they nicknamed him corky so and there's bucky and there's mika and nini these people are americans yes americans yeah we are in cheltenham but i still i still call him corgito so that's

what i call him jane and i on our podcast uh have discussed the fact that corky ballast is probably one of the best names that a man could ever have i think so it's just it's just a wonderful name it's right up there and just the detail of the fact that his family made their money in lawn trimming i mean there's something about it isn't it isn't it absolutely what were the lawns like at his family house oh well they lived it obviously because he'd done very well you know they had lots of trees and he did it from a popcorn can if anybody looks up George Charles Ballas senior he invented that and the strimmer and the blowers that you do you eat you're blowing leaves. So that whole family, you know, owned that company. Tell us a little bit about your earlier life

when you were winning all, all of the championships. And by the way, what is, so the British Open to the World Championship, it just seems like, what does that actually mean that you did? I just can't pretend, so I'll be having some problems with the iPad you carry broken it I dropped it and I've broken it all right you carry on

the show must go on no one's noticed a thing you and technology I know no I don't know what while we're doing tech spec that clock hasn't gone on I know I know we still got 55 minutes yeah what to that and we'll just keep going yeah i think we could do that so we'll just carry on but someone might want to change that too look an assistant has come to help where were we anyway about your triumph three major championships in the world and england is the hub of ballroom dancing so we we just were at the Royal Albert Hall last week, 5,000 people were there. Every country was involved. It started with five or 600 couples, and it eventually gets down to the last six at the Royal Albert Hall. That's always held in October. We have the United Kingdom Championships held at the Bic Centre in January. That's a global event.

And then we have the British Open to the World Championships which is held at the Winter Gardens in Blackpool and the Tower for the Juniors and Juveniles. So they are the three big calendars, championships that nobody in the world wants to miss. There's lots of other championships but they are the ones that you don't want to miss and those are the ones that you want to target and be able to be part of.

So in 1983, I won the British Open to the world as the youngest female to ever do that with Sammy Stockford, my first husband. And then I had this illicit affair and ran off with Corquitobalas all the way to the US thinking I'm going to give up my life. I don't need to dance. You know, I'll be blowing leads and streaming.

I don't need a bit of the old cha-cha-cha. Who needs that? And after three months, I was bored stupid. So I called my ex-husband and said, can I come home? I've made a mistake. I really want to dance. He basically told me to piss off.

And he said, you made your bed. You're going to be a wallflower. You'll be nothing but a wallflower. That's all you were. That's all you'll ever be. And there you go. So I thought to myself, well, I have to dance. Corky was a chef.

Used to cut his weeds and he was a chef. So I taught him to dance from scratch. Came back in 84 when Sammy was second with his new partner. And I made 500th place. Yes. Didn't get a recall. I had to stand on the edge of the floor and watch him win. And that was enough for me.

I thought, okay, I'm going to dedicate my life, my soul, to teaching Corquito to dance. Hardest student I ever taught my entire life. Never quite got it. But in 1995, many years later, we came back. We were first and Sammy was second. And then won it again in 96. So it was quite a story. I talk about that in my autobiography but

when somebody puts you down and all your life you know my mum's always said for my mum life was like swimming upstream so and I kind of felt that a little bit myself but we just kept swimming we just kept swimming you know where there's a will there's a way the winning though must become incredibly addictive and pressurized you know once you've won something you've then got the challenge of just maintaining that haven't you? Well for me when I won in 1983 I was probably in the most miserable part of my life because I'd gotten married at 17 or 18 and no teenage years at the time didn't realize I just wanted to dance I was in a ball blah blah blah blah and then I didn't seem to have any downtime. We never had a holiday. We never went anywhere. We

never had a date night. You know, teacher told us to get married. So we did. And then I get with Corky, this handsome, you know, Corkito, you know, with his weed trimming kit. And I thought, that didn't sound right, did it? But nevermind. Yeah. So we had, I had this most marvelous time with him for three months. I think all I needed was amind. Yeah. So we had, I had this most marvellous time with him for three months. I think all I needed was a holiday. And then I ended up, you know, I said to my mum, I really want to come home. She said, you made your bed, girlfriend, you better lie in it. So that was a real wake up call. And then of course, you know, not many years after we'd been together, maybe 18 months, I got pregnant. That was unheard of in the dance industry.

So then I not only had a new husband who I had to teach and then I had a little baby that traveled all over the world with me but I had a determination when somebody calls you a wallflower or your low life or I've been called sewer rat or you know just different names throughout my life that I've been called I think for me it just made me a stronger character so I look back and I think to myself you know yeah I did. And I'm still here to tell the tale. When you say pregnancy was unheard of. No dancers had babies back then. They were only ever focused on their dancing.

So, you know, he was a lovely surprise, you know. And when we got pregnant and sat in the doctor's office and the doctor said, we don't have a bladder infection, my dear. And I thought, thank goodness for that. You know, I didn't want one of them. He said, but you are pregnant. I said, I can't be. That's absolutely not possible. And he said, well, you are. Take it from me. You are. So it was a huge shock. It took me several weeks to get my head around that. But it is what it is. And life has a way of throwing curveballs. And

you just have to try to find the lane to get back in the lane again. And so when you say, I mean, I'm still puzzled about, so clearly it's a very highly charged, let's be honest, very sexual environment. So pregnancies happened, but they just weren't, I mean, women just had to have abortions. Well, that part I don't know. I mean, I'm imagining that the pressure was such. I can't talk for anybody else with that, but I know that I got pregnant at 25 and that was young. And I remember calling my mother, hey, mom, she goes, how are you doing? Because we lived in America, Texas, you know, where they have the big hats and the big boots. And I said, oh, it's nice to hear from you, darling. How's it going? I went

and pregnant. And the first thing she says, oh my God, you're not. She said, you're just getting on your feet. You're just finding your way. We would just become the US champions and I think she was completely shocked but she went on to raise my son from 18 months old till he was 21 and yeah she did a grand job and he can dance and he can dance and he can sing and he I think I can share this story I think it's not out but I share it I think I can share it no I'm worried when I was on Strictly last year and Mark was on Dancing with the Stars on the other side the two shows run parallel and he won that show with Charlie D'Amelio at the same time I was doing Strictly but he'd waited a long time he's 37 now they'd waited a long time for their Bambino and unfortunately during the process of their his show uh she lost her baby so it was

very very difficult I didn't put it out because obviously it's their business but he's just put out a new song called rainbow for anybody who has any loss and he talks a little bit about that and the song is just absolutely beautiful but that was hard I couldn't leave I couldn't go over there to help you know he was on dancing with the stars she had to go into hospital so it was all very difficult but um I'm very sad I Anyway, 37, 36 now, and I will be a glamour in two weeks. Oh, that is lovely. I'm very excited about that. So that's a new journey for me. You know, I was quite a strict mom.

You know, I had him with his music and Italia Conti. He was raised here till he was 21. Yeah, so I'm really thrilled for them. Unfortunately, they both got COVID this week. So BC's had COVID and Mark's had COVID but the doctor said the baby will be fine so you know it's just there's always something isn't it just when you think everything's sort of like you didn't say when you wake up in the morning gosh that's everything's going so well in my life because you wake up the next morning

and then something happens that's always happened to me so when people say to me how are you doing I say fair and partly cloudy I never go full-on with yeah it's great i'm doing well or whatever because i know that tomorrow can be a different story hi it's fido start the semester with a new phone and a plan full of data without breaking your budget we have everything you need for an a-plus year. Come check out our special back-to-school offers. They'll leave you with more cash in your pocket for the stuff you love. Select plans even include data overage

protection so you can go all out without going over. Don't wait. Our back-to-school offers are only available for a limited time. Go to Fido.ca or a Fido store near you and save all semester long. Fido. At your side. Our big guest today is Shirley Ballas, head judge on Strictly, multiple British champion

dancer and now novelist. We asked her about her role on the programme and what it's like giving feedback that doesn't always make her popular with the audience at home. I think fun, firm and feisty. I think my job is always to deliver the message. I've had to learn to do this. In my industry, for example, let's say you have your private lesson, you're trying to win the international. I might say to you, that footwork is not quite good enough. And on the TV, I might say, now that footwork's not quite good enough. So you're learning because they're only on for three months, they're probably never going to put their shoes on again.

But in order to make that final, they've got to be able to stand on their feet. They've got to be able to have a little bit of technique, just basic, nothing fancy, nothing like what I'm used to. But they do, I know they need something underneath their body to move forward. So I try to deliver that message. And maybe I get some negativity and some trolling.

It's a lot better this year because I have a new social media man, Harry, he's here today, going through all my social media. So, you know, no death threats at the moment. We're only on week three. I mean, you say that lightly. It's absurd for you to have to worry about. It wasn't well last year because of it all. It's horrendous.

As we all know, it was horrendous. But like I said, I took strides this year to bring somebody on board to filter and to help me with all that side of TV. So it's been much better. I've actually really loved it. But I do try to be fair. And at the end of the day, maybe what people don't understand is that show cannot run one second over. So generally, you get 20 seconds to say your piece. But let's say, for example, it goes to my darling Anton, who I've known for 35 years, and he decides to write his autobiography while he's telling his thing. I now have four seconds or five seconds. So you have to be really on the board and shorten everything that you're going to say. That's why fabulous, amazing,

that's bringing us all back on time or not good today but if we can and everybody has equal time we can in 20 seconds how can I teach you really to dance in 20 seconds but I can give you some bullet points does Anton go on a little bit too much I sometimes no oh I love my Anton and I loved going on tour with him you know even if he is stealing my knickers out my bedroom he was fascinated because I get big girl knickers from Marks and Spencer's he was fascinated with that so he took a pair put it in his top pocket and then held them for the crowd so I I love him I love his sense of humor like I say we've known each other over 35 years and I just want to say on his behalf he's no different now than he was 35 to 40 years ago when he first walked in my studio.

No different. He is the same charming gentleman. An actual fact on the front of my book, he says, I love this book. I'm quite convinced I've danced with Lily Richmond. And if anyone can solve a crime, I know she can. Anton Bech. So when he read it, he was, oh, saucy girl.

But yeah, we're very good friends. Can we talk, obviously bearing in mind that this is going out at kind of school run time about some of the more saucy bits in the book shirley because you know there's one there's one little bit in particular and obviously uh when you read the book all the way through you're thinking exactly as you've said uh is this fiction or is this something that's been witnessed by the great Shirley Ballas? Witnessed or did I take part in it? Well, I mean, there's a little bit of kind of exotic sexual activity involving knots and ropes and things. I mean, you can just give me a... I don't know what you'd like to say about that, actually. Well, it was hoisted up. Well, I shouldn't say I, should I?

The person was hoisted up and whipped gently and rather eloquently across the bottom. And yes, there are some scenes like that, some nipple twisting and different things like that. OK, let's get there. I suppose a relevant question, and I have absolutely no desire to embarrass you at all, is just about getting older in the public eye and still retaining your positivity about yourself,

about your image, about your body, about what you choose to be and what you choose to do with it. And I admire you enormously for that, actually. Well, that's been a struggle because body positivity is never... I've struggled with that. As you'll read in here, you know, people that take diet pills and people that say you have to be a certain way. I remember one time after I'd had the baby, you know, maybe six or eight months after,

one professional said to me, you've got jiggly legs. We don't want to see anything that jiggles on your body. Wear a pair of fishnets. And it was said to me like that. And I'm thinking, I just had a baby. And then I wore a dress and I must have had some stretch marks slightly on the back. And somebody, another teacher came over and says, it's making me physically sick to see your stretch marks. Cover yourself up. You know, so all your life, you get these remarks and those kind, they stick with you. So I would say from the beginning of time, let's say from about 15, all the way up to today, which I still struggle with,

and that is body positivity. So what I am learning is that each person is their own and each person needs to do for them what they feel comfortable doing, you know. So I was one of those fad dieters. You know, I remember going on a grapefruit diet that Corquito used to make, he got the pulp, you know, the pulp of the grapefruit, and I got the watery bit, so he was a bit more full than me, so there was all sorts of things for four or five days, it would just be that, you know, just to try to get you in full-on shape, to make sure there wasn't a wrinkle or something you know that and I think years and years and years and years it still plays on my mind you know I I'm not gonna lie I'll sit down

um even with Harry or my mum and I'll go how many calories has that got in or we went to Pride of Britain yesterday Harry and I hadn't eaten we're starving it's like a piece of bread and I was no thank you I'm starving but I didn't eat it but that's years and years and years of people telling you you're not good enough I suppose so do you worry about uh being on a judging panel where in front of you I mean to be honest sometimes the contestants can represent more diverse body shapes but actually the dancers still don't I mean they are lithe they are beautiful they are muscly but they are thin not all dancers are thin not all of them that we've had on the show we've had some really curvy ladies on the show and I've learned a lot from

different people that were on the show throughout our time and confidence so it's growing on growing I look at these lovely bodies and I'm really really happy for them but most women I think look in the mirror and never sometimes feel like they're good enough at some part in their life. The people I talk to, they look and they think, oh, am I good enough? Or you're married and then you hit 50 and 60. And then somehow men seem to keep the silhouette. I'll talk about personal friends of mine. They keep the silhouette. The ladies start, because we've had babies and our figures start to change shape and it bothers them. And I'm really, really trying to be much better, more positive towards people. You are who you are. And if you're comfortable in your own skin, so be it. And good for you. You know what I'm saying?

I'm working on that. That's ongoing for me. I think I will go to my grave still worrying about, oh, how does that look? Or give me a pair of those Spanx. I mean, I have to wear those Spanx. They strangulate every part of my body. So when you see me going, you know, it's the Spanx. But based on what you know of the industry, which by the way, brings huge happiness to those of us who sit at home on our sofas, glass of Prosecco, bag of nuts in my case, Saturday night um it brings such happiness to so many millions of people and I think played a huge part during Covid actually how they kept that series going during the pandemic I'm forever grateful because it was a proper little burst of sunshine in a really miserable existence for many people well we didn't think that that was going to happen you know we

had like arrows going everywhere all over the studio. We were nervous somebody was going to get sick. But they managed, as they always do, the BBC, and they wanted to put something on for the general public, that baubles, bangles and beads, that shiny evening of sequins so that everybody could totally enjoy the winter months. So it was miraculous. It was, actually. It really was.

And I think everyone involved deserves credit for that series. It brought me huge happiness, and I'm sure I'm not alone um but based on what you know of how terrible some women not just women I'm sure but how terribly badly some of the dancers are treated would you have let your daughter become a professional dancer if you'd had one well my son was in the industry that's different I think we know don't we that that's probably different uh well I had Julianne at the same time she lived with me for eight to nine years yeah and Derek they they lived with me for a long time all went on to be successful and I was very protective of Julianne you know so um I was always there to guide so I think if the parent my mother unfortunately wasn't able to be with me because she had to work. So a lot of the traveling, you know, through the night I did on my own,

I relied on lifts from different people. And I think back then you were more trusting, but going into anything today, anything, I'm not just saying ballroom dancing, anything, I would want to think that my grandson or granddaughter eventually would you know be taken care of that the parents would be there all the time to as much as they can or trusted people to be with them I think any industry it has to be monitored today I've just actually by coincidence John Waite is on our program a little bit later in the week and I've just read his book which is called Dancing on Eggshells and he writes very poignantly about his wonderful time on Strictly you know he was partnered with Johannes who's hugely popular

and that was a really significant moment in the history of the show but his bulimia was raging throughout his time on Strictly and I just that doesn't see I mean based on what you've been so honest as well about how you feel there is a contrast between all the glitz and glamour of what we, the viewers, see and the price that seems to be paid by some of the people who are taking part. And that's what I address in the fiction book, you know. Obviously, it's fiction. Or is it? So I address some of these issues, you know. And, yeah, people have anorexia.

People have bulimia. People look in the mirror and don't see anything beautiful about themselves or they avoid mirrors or things like that. I've talked to many women, lots of people over the years, which has actually helped me as well. I just think it's ongoing, but I don't think it's just in the world of ballroom dancing. I think it's in ballet. I think it's in other forms of dance or maybe other situations maybe jockeys this one it's got to be a certain weight to do a certain thing uh i think it's i think it's in everything i don't think it's just ballroom dancing but there is a duty of care to the people who take part in shows

like strictly so everybody is looked after behind the scenes you couldn't get more looked after behind the scenes i know when i was being trolled last year, I was getting phone calls every other day, you need some counselling, you need some help, somebody would take over your social media. The due care and due diligence of the BBC is outstanding. And I only wish that we'd have had that in my industry years ago. It has got much better now. The safeguarding rules are much more in place now.

I address that also. It's very important for me that, you know, cameras in studios now when young ones are coming in and just keeping it so people feel safe. That's the most important thing. Yeah. If you couldn't have been a dancer, what would you have been?

An actress. I would have, you know, my son went to the Italia Conti and he got the lead role in Jersey Boys on Broadway and Charlie Price and Kinky Boots. And I used to go and watch him. I felt he was just singing for me. And I thought, oh, how lovely would it be to get up there on stage and just really see what that's like, you know, because my dancing, I've performed in front of hundreds of thousands of people, but to just be up on stage. But I did get that opportunity in Panto you know if I could have ever remembered the lines I think I would

have been actually quite good actress so there's always lots of lines there's other things that come with it you know but I think an actress would have been great for me can I just ask you one more thing about the trolling so you've got lovely Harry who's here today uh so if something horrible came through um you know this week from uh strictly on saturday do you do you now not see it does he filter it for you or does he reply to people and if he does what do they then do well harry takes the phone i'm not even allowed my phone till he's absolutely gone through everything and obviously now we go into week four all the way on that gets a little bit tougher because good people are going out and it doesn't matter who it is it will always be somebody's favorite so i apologize in advance for anyone we have to

stay home but he filters he goes through if he thinks it's kind of a funny comment or a wonderful comment we share that together but as for constantly me getting on it and think, oh my gosh, why, oh, I've sent the right person home. Why is this person disagreeing with me? I don't have any of that anymore. So I think, I love people, you know, and there's always that you want people to really know that you're doing the best job you can for these wonderful celebrities that signed up for Strictly. And when they come on and they, I love controversy. I love it if somebody comes on, like there's one chap who says, well, Shirley, you looked adorable today, but I did not agree with your 10. I did not agree with this. And then, oh, okay, then, well, you know, da-da-da-da-da,

goes a bit back and forward. And it's lovely. It's when the over-the-top messages come in, where they want to slice you up or follow you around or bury you in the yard or you know have a coffin and a thing with your face on it and all that kind of thing that to me is strange you know I couldn't do that even if I didn't care for somebody you know what I mean so and this is but there is this notion isn't that now that somehow uh because you have excelled in your career had a choice in what you do that somehow you should be able to take that. It's kind of a game. And I think it's always interesting to hear what the personal cost is to people having to read that kind of hate stuff. Because you have been accused of a lot of things,

actually, really unpleasant things. Well, I do take it, actually. I think I take it pretty good on the chin. I'm still here. I had a choice. pretty good on the chin I'm still here I had a choice I could have left I didn't I'm still sitting here because I love the job so much um it always is a little bit throughout the series you know if I give a five for example you'll hear the boos in the audience if Anton de Becque gives a five he gets a clap I look at him I'm like and he goes that's that, you know, I'm Anton. So it tends to be a little bit more. I'm Motsi too, you know, we give a lower score. I think I'm not the only one who gets that. You referenced that there's terrible things,

but I know Motsi's also had it. And Craig, who doesn't care to do social media and really doesn't care what you think about him at all. And then Anton, who doesn't read it at all. But I'm not the only one. I've seen the messages that other people get, celebrities and all, not just me. So please don't think it's just me who's getting it.

It goes across the board on the show. We need to make clear, this is a Saturday night TV dance show. None of you should be experiencing any of this. It's crazy. It's out of all proportion. You know, to be fair to the to the english audience they've been watching it for 20 years they get so invested they sit with their families they have the most amazing time and i think a majority of people have a really good eye you know i get some messages and i'm thinking oh my goodness you're spot on so they you know that they're invested in

it and sometimes like one gentleman he wrote this awful message last year i wasn't doing so good so i reposted the message shouldn't have done that but I did and then he got bullied so then him and I ended up having a chat and I said to him well why did you post it he said because you sent my favorite person home and I just reacted so he didn't think he said I'm sorry I should have thought before I did it but people don't do that yeah when Mark my son was on Dancing with the Stars he danced with a young lady, and one guy, it was front page of the news, had thrown his television out of the second floor

of an apartment because he was so frustrated because, you know, somebody had gone home on that series. So it's not just our show. It's globally and all around the world. You know, I have a big part to do with Dancing with the Stars and all those kids. I hear all those stories, and it's everywhere. It's not just me.

You know, I mean, somebody, how do we we keep everybody on would I like to keep everybody on absolutely do I wish we could have a final of 15 yes but unfortunately that's not the way the show goes can I ask you a cheeky question about the celebrities you know every single year um the newspapers they follow strictly avidly you know know, don't ever miss a chapter, but they always start the coverage by saying, this is the worst lineup of so-called celebrities we've ever, we've never heard of any of them. And then gradually, and sometimes I haven't heard of some of the people, but you follow them throughout the series and you become more aware of them. How many of them genuinely do you know of before you actually have to judge them dancing? Well, I can also go back

to my when I first got on the show nobody had heard of me but in my industry you know I was at the top of my industry but nobody knew who I was um people are in different sectors aren't they in the animal kingdom Hamza for example I didn't know Hamza before he got on the show but once I read up and I read about his life and his story I thought thought, wow, this is a really interesting gentleman. And then he came out on the show and blew us all away and we all fell in love with him. And then I was on tour with him. And the same with everybody.

Everybody's got a story. You know, so I don't really know what people are expecting to see a full line of 15 people that we know every single person. How boring. You know, so we have people that we can grow with I think the most beautiful part of this show is we grow with people you know so that's the part I like and you know even last week when the young lady went out you know gave her a snuggle bunny

cuddle and I told her I look forward to seeing the great things that you're going to do in your life you did amazingly well be proud of yourself for signing up because it's not an easy show she actually looked devastated poor poor girl i mean i did feel sorry for her it clearly does really knock people doesn't well i think that they work really really hard you know like i said about giovanni's partner you know she came out and did those beautiful splits it took me 20 years to perfect them she came out in three days and i thought oh they look better than mine um people get invested in it they don't want to go home they want to stay with their family which reminds me of angela rippon who is lest we forget fangirling fangirling 78 i mean this is unbelievable 78 79 i think this week that's right yes i did yes 79

and um is there any limit to her participation in terms of of her ability to do some of the i mean this is from a position of ignorance but to do some of the, I mean, this is from a position of ignorance, but to do some of the faster dances? Is it going to be hard? I mean, just honestly, would it be hard for anyone? And she's phenomenally fit. Would it be hard for anyone of that age to compete? Well, forget the age, because age has no bounds. Okay.

There are younger people that struggle to keep up. We've got 20-odd-year-olds, 30-odd-years that can't go to the end of the jive. So she's still holding her own. Right now, she's done three dances. And what I love about Kai is he takes a technique book and he creates routines that are simple but really readable for somebody like me. You know, that you have recognisable steps. He doesn't try to go over the top. He stays within the boundaries of what she can do. So as long as she's got a little bit of rhythm some lovely footwork and hold her arm up and charm everybody I mean she's just absolutely charming

and we'll have to see I mean I can't predict I have no crystal ball but I don't think it's an age thing I mean she did extremely well last week in a quick step and beautiful the week before so and some people forget routine she didn't forget a routine as far as i can remember maybe a little hiccup in the quick step there in the corner if i remember rightly but genuinely overall generally there there are other younger people who make mistakes forget routines you could go in the wrong way or this or that so we'll see how she does sometimes when the contestants with their partners are waiting uh you know to listen to the judges comments i really feel for them sherry because some of them are so out of breath aren't they you just think you just have

to sit down are you going to make it and then and then there was someone and i won't draw attention to it here but there was someone you could almost see them saying to their partner oh god we've got to get up the stairs now we do we do hear that yes really sympathizeise it's exhausting, it's a minute and 30 seconds to fast music that you've learned within inside a week, could you imagine you're going out in front of an audience of let's say 15 million people who you know are going to be sitting there

and judging every little thing that you do, that's why I give them credit for signing up you know, it's exhausting for them and Shirley Ballas's book Murder on the Dance Floor is available to pre-order now yeah and I think Shirley delivered and actually it was like I'd forgotten how lovely it is to do one of those interviews with a packed auditorium of actual people it's good fun isn't it it is good fun yeah and I think

people really enjoyed the energy that Shirley brought to that. Some people, some writers, let's be honest, don't always know how to perform. And she absolutely does. I'm with you on that. And it just immediately pleases the audience. And then everybody knows that we're all locked into the same thing. I mean, basically, she gave us an hour's worth of The Shirley Show. Yeah, but that's amazing. But it's so comfortable, isn't it?

Because you just think, right, we're off. So whatever's going to happen, I'm going to enjoy it. I'm in kind of safe, entertaining hands. So yes, I really enjoyed meeting her, actually. Do you know what? She is still here signing books.

So that's about an hour after we finished talking to her. It looks like she's talking to one of her younger admirers I would estimate him to be about four the lad in the yellow shirt well he'll be locked in for life as well won't he he definitely will be

thank you for listening and tomorrow's guests include Peter Brathwaite the opera singer and we'll also talk to the comedian Shaprak Korsandi so tomorrow is shaping up to be excellent as well and we'd love your company if you want to chip in with an email I know we can't go through all the emails while we're abroad in Cheltenham, but we'll be back at Times Towers on Wednesday, won't we? So we can dig into them then.

So what would you wear tomorrow? I didn't mean to be rude about your trousers suit admiration. You've still got time to pop to a shop. I might go shopping tomorrow morning because we've already been told we're on light duties first thing. And I think some of the livelier youngsters are going swimming, but I won't be doing that. Right. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Have a very good night or wherever it is where you are. And join us tomorrow for more of this sort of thing. Goodbye. You did it.

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