Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The joys of Tom Schafernaker's mankle

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Why do black and white photos look so good? Who's carrying around turkey in their dressing gowns? What is it with celebrities in Suffolk? All questions pondered in today's pod... Plus Jane speaks to Lord Mark Price on his new book, "Work Happier: How to Be Happy and Successful at Work". You can listen to our 'I've got the house to myself' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2MkG0A4kkX74TJuVKUPAuJ We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producers: Hannah Quinn and Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean, who's carrying around pieces of raw turkey and their dressing gal? That's not right, is it? Chris, I don't know what kind of household you run, but you may want to just ask a few questions. It's true, isn't it? It's weirdly flattering in one of those you can rent them out at parties photo booths. But if you go into one of the passport photo booths in your local shopping, centre to twist up the stool and have your photo taken it's deeply unflattering isn't it what's

going on uh i don't know well they put a special they've got a special notchial spotlight that they apply it maybe it's just because they're black and white were those black and white pictures hannah yeah that's it isn't it you just explain what hannah's just seen the world was better when he had a black and white option i think it really was it was yeah why is that okay let's why does everyone look better in a black and white photograph but it's largely abandoned as an art form. Well, it's interesting. But it's not in the true world of photography.

Isn't it? I think it's still highly valued. But we are daft because we would do ourselves many, many favours by just sending out black and white pictures of ourselves. We're quite so frightening with our high colour. I think we do better. I certainly do better just sending out photographs of other people.

I just know about this. And slightly orangey hair. Now look, I've had a time-sensitive, met office alert about ice. Well, don't let me keep you. Exactly. Is that the immigration and control whatever it is? Are they coming to get you?

Or is this ice on a pavement? It's ice on a pavement. So this is slightly, it gets cold in winter shocker. But nevertheless, it says here, rain and hill snow, followed by clearing skies, will lead to the risk of icy patches on Tuesday night into Wednesday morning. No shit, Sherlock.

Right. I mean, what do you think about these warnings? Do you think they're appropriate, or do you think we've just got too ridiculously nanny state? about all this. I think they're brilliant. At the weekend, I got one of those because Storm Claudia, which lots of people wanted to call Storm Claudia. Well, it was apparently Claudia. Why? Because it was, I think, named in a country where Claudia is Claudia. Oh, no, you see, we're back to whether or not it's the IAC Stadium or you can say the Ajax Stadium. Are you off to Paris for the

weekend or Paris? There we are. Storm Claudia was sweeping across southeast England. Actually, It was terrible, wasn't it, in Wales, in Monmouthshire, in particular. And I got one of those weather warnings as we were about to embark on the M-11 up to Suffolk, and I found it really useful because it says exactly what the amber thing means. Some communities might be cut off, there might be an awful lot of flooding. So amber is more serious than yellow. Yeah. Right.

And it does make you think about your journey, much more than if you're left to your own devices and you just watched Thomas Schaffanacker on the news last night. He's more of a personality, weatherman, isn't he? Yes, very much so. But also very gifted because he does these incredible pictures. Pictures? Pictures. He does.

Of what? He's an artist. Is he? Yeah. Why don't realize that? Oh, yeah, he is. He's quite remarkable. Let me just check that.

Have I just adorned a simple weather person? With talents they don't possess. He always looks... Stay tuned. Very, very well-dressed. And it's the first time that I've ever seen a man presenting something

on the great big ball-swinging BBC One network at prime time not wearing socks. He had a little mancle out for a while when he was doing the weather. He does favour. I like that.

I think actually, you know, I think Clive could benefit from occasionally getting his mancle out. Not going to go there. What are interesting facts about Thomas Schaffanaka. Well, he went to the University of Reading. Deep going.

For his sake. It's quiet. Where are these pictures? Bear with. Here we are. I haven't made this up. I knew I had. Yeah, there we go.

He's got his own... Oh, hang on. Yeah, look, he does these amazing... There's his portrait of Dame Judy Dench. He's done one there of David Attenborough. And, yeah, that's all here. Okay, so he does portrait here. Chaffanaccar art.

Shaffanacar art. I tell you what, life would just have been different if you've been blessed with that many syllables in your surname. Shaffanaka. No, he's very popular

and the late queen was an admirer. How do you know that? Well, it just popped up there. Apparently, she liked it. We are so in-depth research on this podcast. We really are. Now, in today's podcast,

we have a guest, mercifully, you'll be thinking, it's Mark Price. And I was saying earlier, when I popped up very briefly on Times Radio in Hugo's show to talk about what lay ahead for listeners on our program

which is on Times Radio 2 till 4 Monday to Thursday and the Times Radio app remains completely free to download worth a go, trust me. Anyway, Mark Price is our guest and he ticks lots of Times Radio listener boxes because in no particular order he is a Tory, he is a life peer, he worked for the John Lewis Partnership.

Well, he ran waitrose. That was my golden ticket. And then he ran waitress. for a decade. Yeah. So that is part of the journalist I know,

but it's just the fact that I mean he wasn't actually the boss of journalists because that was Andy Street who then went on to be the mayor

of Birmingham. Yes. So he was his deputy but he was in charge of waitrose. Yeah. I used to work for him. Andy Street?

No, for Mark Price. At waitrose. Yeah. Because... Oh yeah, no, you did your column. He wanted to expand waitrose just beyond a place

where you would get your basket of food. So all kinds of things popped up. They rejuvenated Michael Parkinson's chat show as part of Waitrose Media when they thought that they'd go into making food programmes, television and all kinds of other things too. So he had ambitions far beyond,

I'll have half a pound of apples, please. And I'll pay a fancy price for them. Or a reasonable price. For a high-quality offering. Yeah, if you're down at the bottom of the range. We've covered all bases there. It's less of a shop, more of a retail experience, isn't it, a trip to waitrose? But he is interesting because he believes that productivity and happiness in the workplace are very closely linked.

Now, I mean, I think we'd be the first to agree. We're very fortunate because on the whole, I mean, obviously that we have, one has an off day. There might be a sort of atmosphere in the office. But on the whole, this is a pleasant place to work, isn't it? We're not striving. We're not, you know, we're not being bullied. we're not being harassed, we're well paid, we're warm, and we sit down and we talk. It's probably significantly harder to be happier in a job that you are not particularly well rewarded for.

Your boss is an absolute idiot, and you're being bullied. But anyway, let's see. Let's see what offering Mark brings to the party. Yes, but those bullies can crop up anywhere, and I don't think it's necessarily dependent on I don't know, is it just a bit is it a bit broad brush to think that

everybody here's happy? There might be some people who aren't, but I think the problem is we might not know. It's a good point. He says, of course, that your interpreter, you could be doing exactly the same job as the person you're sitting next to. And they could hate it. And they could absolutely hate it, and you could be fine. And also, of course, sometimes,

this is something that struck accord with me. Sometimes you, the employee, you're the problem. And it's, I'm, Have you ever been taken aside and a little chat? Would you like to take a little look at your own work structure? Exactly. And there are, well, there's ongoing investigations now, aren't there, into all kinds of workplace behaviours.

But not here, I hesitate to our, not in our immediate circle here at Times Radio, but there are some quite notable media investigations into people's conduct. And it's a really, really tricky one because sometimes you are the problem. And we both know from previous employers that there are. are also some people who they're just they're just the office grouch and grump aren't they and it doesn't matter actually what they're doing what opportunities they're given they are never going to be any happier and i think we all acknowledge there are people like that in every single workplace and you just want to make it your life's work to make sure that you're not that person really if you

possibly can avoid it who is going to buy and this isn't a snidey question at all a book about working happier? Is it the people who already are quite happy who think they might recognise something of themselves in it? Is it if you were desperately unhappy at work, would you buy a book about working happier? I'm sure, that's a good point. I don't know. Would you buy it and leave it on somebody else's desk? And if you were an employer, would you seek this book out so you'd made

sure you'd treat your workforce really well? Could you ask him that in the interview, please? Because you're leading the interview, so I shall simply sit back and watch the master class. Well, while checking that I've still got my waitrose card. I'm not sure I do. What time were the show finished on the 7th of December? Hello, Eve. I love this because the correspondent Natalie

obviously thinks that you and I aren't capable of answering this question, so they've sent it to Eve. Now, that's unfair on Eve because she's not actually in charge or overseeing this particular event. But Natalie says we've booked tickets to come and see Jane Fee on the seventh travelling up from deepest dark as Wiltshire. The last train home on Sunday is 950-50 from Paddington. Is that feasible?

Sorry to involve you in our logistics. It's just we're trying to be organised and get transport sorted out. Well, Natalie, I think you're going to have to leave the show a tiny bit earlier than the finale time in order to make it to Paddington. So we're going to be in the heart of London's Feitional Wednesday, which means you're probably

going to want to get a tube from Leicester Square. We're on Sharsbury Avenue, aren't we? Or you could, if you can, you could hop into a black cabin on a Sunday night. No, I'd tell you what you could do. You could head up to Bond Street and get the new Lizzie line. Super speedy, super speedy. But check for engineering works. Okay, so do that.

But I would say that the Lizzie line would be by fire your fastest path to Paddington. I think a black cap on a Sunday and December coming from the half of London. It could be terrible. There'll be Met Office, yellow, amber and indeed even other warnings. Well, let's not put people off. Sadiq Khan as well. He's always in the cab with you. You know what I mean?

You can't go above 20. You can't go above 20 anywhere. You're not free these days to slip over on the ice without somebody interfering. Not what he's done. He's a good mare. So I think you, we're so looking forward to seeing everybody who's coming on the 7th of December. But we start at 7.30. We're going to rock through for 40 minutes.

Have a 20 minute interval. Rock through for another 40 to 45. So I think you might have to leave a little bit early. so I'm sorry about that but why don't you make yourself known to us Natalie and we might at the start of the evening just work out who does need to leave early and we always have the lights up

in the second half of the show and we'll all just give you a big wave and nobody will mind at all. Should we do that? Yeah I'm really with her because this kind of logistic problem is exactly the kind of thing that keeps me awake and I do worry myself about that kind of thing. Well it'll keep everybody awake on a Sunday night

so you don't want to get stuck in London on a Sunday night In December. Imagine the cost of a hotel. And the temptation that would lie ahead as well for the rest of the night. And the next day. It's like Sodom and Gomorrah here. It really is. Oh, but if limited seats are available, if anybody else would like to come,

and we were going through our features for the show yesterday, and they are... Well, you've got... I've got my tombollah of truth. I like a tombola. And we're just going to have little key phrases, and indeed, subjects, just ready to... to pop up, to be debated, not just by us, but by you as well.

We've also got pin the tail on the absolute donkey, and that might feature a well-known world leader, and you're going to come up on the stage and put a little pin where you think the donkey might have a tail. We've got chat for PT, where you're going to pop in your dilemmas, and Jane and I are going to see whether we can come up with something better than AI. Yeah, and then what else? We're going to have a sing-song at the end.

strictly speaking, still under wraps at the moment, still in development. Yeah, we've also got costumes. And there'll be some costumes. And Jane and I are going to try and do some paddle on stage. Yes, there will be a sporting demonstration. And there should be a sporting demonstration, because let's face it, that's what we're really good at. Well, that's what people come to this podcast for, sporting activities. And really, it's a conversation.

It's going to be a two-way showtime street. That's what we're aiming at. Showtime Street. So it's a two-way showtime street. Two-way street, showtime. That's it. That's what we've got for you. It's on December the 7th. Come along if you can be asked.

Okay. I think that should be on the poster. Obviously, most people can't be asked. And I don't blame them in the slightest for that. No, we really don't mind. We totally understand. Can I just say big hello to Hannah? Imagine my surprise when at 4 a.m.

during a bout of my grief insomnia. I heard Little Sid, the dog with cone of shame, and my dad, Alan, mentioned on your podcast of November the 11th, both of whom have sadly died recently. Then I remembered for you that you met my dad at a mutual friend's wedding. I'm not going to say her name, but something so spooky, Jane. I haven't had a conversation with this mutual friend for years, and I haven't heard from her for years,

and this is the second time in 48 hours that her name has come up. Isn't that weird? Oh, that's for, that is odd. It is odd, isn't it? The universe has just poked me twice. So I'm obviously going to drop her a line after this. But anyway, Hannah says, in fact, you met all of us. My dad was Miles' oldest friend from his Cambridge days,

and I was taking pictures. My mum was most likely chatting to Sandy and my sister. Is everyone across this, I hope so. Having not heard of GLR or listened to Radio 4, chatted you for a fair chunk of the reception, while I was busy GLR fan girl, again, and my sister merely said she was lovely, nice coat. so I immediately thought

what coat was I wearing that day and not whose wedding was it I remember meeting you I honestly can't remember I think I had one coat that just saw me through any of those wedding events for the whole of my 30s you know you had a coat that you actually genuinely would not wear to anything else

even to the opening of a waitreau store but it was very it just knew it was good for weddings yeah was it something you dry cleaned oh very much so yeah Well, you wouldn't put a coat in a wash, would you? Well, this is probably one of my... That's where your twigs come from. Yeah, exactly.

Anyway, Hannah, thank you for the memory. And, you know, we still send you lots of love because you lost your dog and your dad within a very, very short period of time. And I don't know whether it's helpful, you know, to be listening to a podcast, actually, and hear a kind of a bump of familiarity. But I enjoyed hearing from you very much,

and I was going to get in touch with our mutual friend later on the soft. afternoon. And Chris says she sent me a series of explicit images. Oh my gosh. I know of her washing machine, massively. That's all. Yes. How did the turkey wrapped up in foil find its way into the washing machine? Also a Bosch. There's another spooky coincidence because I had Fault E18 on my Bosch on Sunday night. And that was because there was a blockage. My washing machine also occasionally wash my credit cards. And yeah, Chris, there's the credit card in the washing machine there. Yeah, they do.

That I understand. They still work as well after they. And they do work afterwards, do they? I was going to ask about that. What are they made of? God, that's weird. And then the turkey, I don't want to see. There's something curiously really disturbing

about bits of turkey going around inside your washing machine. Because it's the wings and the might even be a claw. And then the image of a remote control in the washing machine. Now, there's just no, I mean, it's quite a sizable, chunky item. A remote remote control. It was some night. Yes. Do you know what, Chris, actually?

It's the same remote control. I've got another coincidence. So, yeah, I mean, I can only assume a dog put the remote control in the washing machine, I don't know. No, because you might put it in the pocket of your dressing gown. Yeah, your bathrobe or something like that. But it doesn't expect, I mean, who's carrying around pieces of raw turkey in their dressing gal? That's not right, is it? Chris, I don't know what kind of household you run, but you may want to just.

just ask a few questions, as my colleague hints there. Yeah, and then you add the fact that you, well, somebody was paying for something on a credit card. I mean, the plot is very thick indeed there, isn't it? Let's take our mind somewhere else and join Susan Scott for hula hooping. Yes, please do. Dear Jane Fee, I've just started a hula hoop class, and I can confirm that even if you don't do it as a child, by the end of the first session, you will get the hang of it.

I feel a little YouTube video coming on. It's a great workout and a real love. I got a lot of extra exercise picking it up off the floor to begin with. So every single time it dropped, you're bending over you pick. Yeah, I can see how that works, yeah? I'm ridiculously chuffed that after over 50 years, I can actually still do it. My core area definitely feels like it's been working hard, but I can't see any reduction in waist size yet.

I used to run, do lots of jazzercise. Jazz size. But due to injuries, I'm now concentrating on balance, flexibility, and hopefully it's all good for future years. So I'm doing beginners yoga, hula hooping, and I row with a local skiffle club on our local loch. It's an odd mixture. Well, it certainly is, but if it's working for you, who cares?

And I think we ought to give hula hooping a try. Should we do it on stage? Yes, but only with one of those special weighted, therefore very much easier to use hula hoops. Yeah, I just, I can't see how they are, but yeah, okay, let's do it. Yeah. This is from, oh, now, hang on, well, let's leave it anonymous just in case. You brought up the idea, I think this is me, that the human population is divided into two groups

between those who can roll their tongue and those who can't. Only after being a grandmother for the sixth time, I was made aware of a person being or having tongue tie. There's a first time for everything. Now, I have heard of tongue tie, but I confess until this email, I didn't. actually know how it looked and the correspondent has included that illustration which is quite helpful my last grandchild had a problem breastfeeding not sucking very much not latching on just like i had with his mom fortunately it was explained that he was tongue tied which meant that a thin piece of skin was attached to the tongue and to the bottom of his mouth this was put to rights a few

days later at the hospital with a snip to release the tongue allowing it to move more and thus presumably allowing easier breastfeeding but um it's not that uncommon that is it but i guess unless it's occurred directly in your own family you're not going to know much about it no and i would hope that there's a really immediate check done by somebody if you are having problems your baby's having problems latching on that just works out whether or not that can be the problem because you know so many women really do go through the mill trying to breastfeed and being told that they should when they actually

just can't. So, yeah, it's always good to be informed about stuff like that. Thank you very much. Thank you. What happens now? Have you got another one or going into a guest? No, no, I like this one from Ian McBelstar

because we're still catching up with the adventures on the road of underrated 80s girl band That was right, wasn't it, the Bell Stars? Yes, I think much underrated. Yeah, do read that one out because it includes some references to other hits you might recognise.

Yes, okay. This is Ian. I chanced upon your ramblings while on a long journey and during one pod heard about Stella's French Sorte with the Bell Stars to support Elvis Costello and the attractions. Now, I was on the advance road crew with the instruments and the amplifiers in that story. I was only 20.

I used to either ferry them about in a minibus or transport the gear to get set up alone ahead of them arriving by stretch limousine, they wish, to walk on and play. Early on, there were a lot of support gigs, and often I'd be confronted by all manner of sexist banter and grief bordering on obstruction from the other road crew and venue staff, because in those days, female acts were generally viewed as incapable of actually playing live. Now, once they'd sound-checked and they were in action,

attitudes changed with a realisation they really meant business and they were not a novelty act now I can imagine that really would be the case back in the 80s wouldn't it from a lot of these gentlemen who worked in this line of work although not our correspondent here who was obviously one of the good guys for what it's worth he says

I think they've been underappreciated over the years perhaps because they wrote songs about 80s life from a woman's perspective that wasn't the norm remember he says the majority of the songs for lasses to sing back then were actually written by blokes. The Bell Stars didn't fit the industry's requirement of an all-female act.

I guess their spot in history and legacy would be more marked if they'd been stridently feminist. Arguably, they might not have needed to play as well as they could to compete on the street if they had been. There were a few covers in their live set, which ended up being a more cosy fit for the labels who didn't really know what to do with a band

that stoutly refused to be a lollipop girly group and did actually play live. rather than just sing and dance. One of those covers was, was it Iko, Ico? Ico, Ico. Yeah. Ico, Ico, yeah. So liked by Dustin Hoffman, I know you like a name drop, we do.

He made the necessary noises to use the track for the opening of Rain Man. I don't remember that. Wow. I'm sure Stella can fill you in on that. Anyway, I'm a fan and at the risk of turning your podcast into two-way family favourites, one for the teenagers, says Ian. Please send my love and best wishes to Stella and the rest of the bell stars. It was a great time in my life,

and it taught me a lot about the shit that women have had to deal with over the years. Ian, thank you for that, and I hope Stella's still listening, and I hope she hears it. And does Ian say anywhere what he went on to do? Where do we find Ian now? Ian, you'll have to let us know.

Yeah, give us an update on Ian's life. I mean, I love the title of the email is I humped for Stella Bell Star. Well, it just doesn't get better than that. It doesn't. If you're going to try and draw our attention to your email, come up with titles like that it always helps

it will and if Stella is listening we are really enjoying this it's taking us down memory lane it's a fascinating insight into the girl bands of yesteryear and it's rather lovely that it's turning into a kind of palim sest isn't it where people are coming in with all of their different memories from different parts of backstage front stage on the stage

I'm loving it because everybody has their role to play and clearly Ian was very much a part of that. But, you know, we need to know what's gone on since. We do. We need to have a sign of the updated times. Get it. Not so safe houses comes in from Mike.

Mike here, long-time listener, occasional emailer. Your thoughts about the likelihood of neighbours knowing and spotting a safe house reminded me of a pub quiz question I faced about 20 years ago. We were in a village on the Suffolk coast, much favoured by celebs, attracted by the flora, fauna and other celebs. Do you think you know what that place for? I think. Is it?

Is it near Southworld or maybe Warbleswick? That is, it's not unfair to say that's the kind of stellar street of Suffolk, isn't it? Well, it is. Loads of people live there. It is, and it's having a bit of a ding-dong at the moment, because the rumour is, and this has been reported in the local press, that Ed Sheareran has bought two houses at one of the seaside resorts, and he's going to knock it through into one big big...

house. He's got a home from home by the sea, which has annoyed some people because it's really hard for normal people who live in Suffolk to be able to buy houses at a reasonable price, because 40% of those two big villages come towns are second home owners. 40, 40. 4.0. No, I think he is from that area. Oh, yes. He's got a massive Ed Shearren, kind of what would you call it compound right you know just a little bit further in land like the Kennedy compound yes very much like that but I don't you know there hasn't been any comment

from Ed Sheeran's camp yet and he's a lovely bloke and he's done loads and loads and loads for the local area so I'm assuming that if he's resident in the UK he's paying his tax his tax yeah I would imagine he is it's a tricky one isn't it I mean I'm not a second homeowner myself and I understand why people get absolutely incensed by it but I don't think

Ed's one of the, he's not the worst is he? No I don't think he's the worst at all but I really sympathise I mean it's just I remember doing a story about the primary school in South World once because the numbers were just so diminished because so many of the houses that would have been bought by people

who then had kids you know were just being rented out and owned you know by people who tip up on a Friday evening and that's a tough one isn't it? It's a lovely part of the world, it's absolutely beautiful. Yeah. I love to visit it, and I'm swimming off the sea.

The water around size, well, is two degrees warmer, which is what makes Dunwich Beach so attractive. It's another factor known to the weekend. Isn't Dunwich Beach the place where, supposedly, wasn't that the ancient capital of England? It wasn't England at the time. Yeah, I think you're right. And a lot of Dunnich is underwater. Yeah, fascinating.

So there was a massive, great big flood. And I think recently, you know, Using really magnificent sonar and new technology, they've been able to see the ruins of the town of Dunwich under the water, you know, including, you know, part of the steeple of the church and stuff. Really? Isn't it wonderful?

God, that is. It does send shivers down the odd spine, doesn't it? Yeah. Anyway, look, we've got completely distracted from Mike's email. We were in a village on the Southwark coast, much favoured by celebs, etc., etc. One such was politician, Jeff Hoon. No, I'm not sure, strictly speaking.

that that's a name that's lingered all that much in the collective memory but I'm going to say he was Defence Secretary at one point I think you're right Yes I think so too And what flavour was he Gosh, are we going to have to research that

I think he was Labour I think he was a Labour Defence Secretary Okay let's see Let's put Hannah onto it OUN is spelled H-O-N And Jeff Well Jeff His spell it was your way like

Labor MP for Ashfield from 1990 to 2010. Okay, did he hold a ministerial position, Hannah? Well done. And transport? Gosh, busy man, Jeff. He'd have had no trouble getting to Suffolk. One such was politician Jeff Hoon, who had a house nearby. Hence the quiz question in the local pub,

what make and colour is the car used by the protection officers for the Secretary of State. Obviously, we had no idea, but all the locals thought it was the easiest question of the night. P.S. Caroline Quentin. was on our team, although I've no idea how that happened. Maybe lots of celebrities just went to that part of the world

on a Friday night just to say hello to other well-known people. Yeah. Because there is, well it's a little bit as illustrated by celebrity traitors. There was an element of everybody knew everybody else from similar events. Yeah. And of course they would too. Yeah. They've got shared agents. Yeah. All of those

kind of sticky webs that operate behind everybody. Anyway, Mike, it's a lovely little email. I'm so It took us a very long time to get to the end of it. We've gone through second homes and whether or not Ed Shearer is a nice guy, but we got there in the end. I displayed a lack of, you know, a broad brush approach to his tax affairs as well, so I hope I'm right. He is indeed, like all of us, chipping in. Oh, I think he is. I'd no reason to believe he isn't.

Yeah, I'm very firmly on the, I think Ed Sheareran is good news fence if that's all right. Yeah, no, I'm happy to. I'm happy to be there too, yeah. I'm not a massive fan of his work, although I don't think that will trouble him. I don't know who might listen to this. I think it's unlikely, isn't it? Now to our guests this afternoon, Mark Price, he is a life peer, and he's the author of Work Happier, How to Be Happy and Successful at Work.

Mark has had a brilliant career himself in retail. He worked for the John Lewis Partnership for over 30 years, and he ended his time there as the boss of Waitrose. 2016, then Prime Minister David Cameron made him a live peer, and he became a Minister of State for Trade. Then he set up Work L. His mission is to make the workplace happier and to increase productivity. Mark Price, good afternoon to you. How are you? I'm really well, Jane, and you've mentioned Charlie Bingham's ready meal, so that's got me focused on my tea, and I think a Charlie Biggham fish pie has got to be now right at the top of the list.

Well, you normally guaranteed at least a couple of prawns, aren't you? So it's probably worth a shout, definitely. Can we talk about the link between happiness and productivity? Just explain it, please. Yeah, of course, happy to. So on my very first day working for the John Lewis Partnership, which was back in 1982, I was told by my managing director that the supreme purpose of the John Lewis partnership

was the happiness of the people that work there. And Speed and Lewis, who founded the business about 100 years before that, had come to the realization that if his people were happy, they'd stay longer, they'd have less sick absence, training would stick, they'd become more productive. And all research now shows that to be true, the research that I do at the business that I'm at now, but if you go to Harvard Business Reviews or London School of Economics or elsewhere, what you will see is that there is a very clear link between how happy people are in their jobs and their propensity to stay, whether they're going to take more sick absence,

whether they give extra discretionary effort, the service they give to customers and productivity. So being happy at work is good for the individual. Individuals are happy in their jobs, are more likely to be promoted, are more likely to be paid more, have better mental health, etc. And it's also good for the businesses they work for. It just seems so simple when you put it all like that. We do know that Britain's productivity has been, well, shall we say, sluggish, why is that, and does it suggest that for whatever reason, Britain has lots of

unhappy workplaces? Well, sadly, that is true. We measure workplace happiness around the world, about a million people a year, take our happy at work test of work, and we've got data on 194 countries, and what that data shows is that the UK is bottom of the G20 in terms of happiness as we measure it and also bottom in terms of productivity and governments very very quickly talk about rail projects or new motorways or building infrastructure to improve productivity and there's no doubt they help but underlying it what really drives productivity is how people how happy people are in their jobs how committed they are in their jobs how much extra discretionary effort. So I think the big trick we miss in the UK is how happy our people are and improving that

through the management they get. We run the Sunday Times best places to work in the UK, but we also do that around the world now. We work with the Washington Post in America and we work with the Australian and Australian, the Hindu in India, etc. And what we see very clearly is those companies that have got the happiest employees are the most productive, are the most successful over the long term. So it's very, very clear that that simple thing, as you say, makes a huge difference in terms of people's personal commitment to their job and also the organisation's success. Okay, but what if you're in a pretty low paid job, the hours are long, you don't particularly like your colleagues, but you've got rent to pay, you've got food to put on the

table, frankly, you don't get on with anybody at work, or even worse than that, you're being bullied or harassed at work. What on earth can you do to change? change that for yourself? Well, I think the first point you make is the most important one. You should do something. It's in your control. And you can make a decision every day about how you go into work. You can either decide to accept the working conditions you have because you've got ulterior motives in the short term, or you can decide to do something about it. You can leave and you can look for jobs elsewhere. And at Workall, we've got data on 120,000 organisations and we've got jobs in those organizations. So people can choose to apply for jobs where employees are

happier. But just because you're in one of those jobs you're defining as not a particularly nice job doesn't mean that you can't be happy. I mean, we work with a thousand organizations around the world. And what we try to do is to help people think about those things that do create happiness at work. So while you're fairly paid, are you recognized when you do something well, which is a major driver of your happiness in your job. Are you well informed? Are you treated with respect? Are you listened to? Does the organisation care about your well-being? Do you feel proud of the job that you're doing? And do you feel that you're being developed? Do you have a good relationship and you're managing? These are the things that really create the environment for people

to be happy. And frankly, in whatever job you do, they can be delivered. You know, being treated with respect, being thanked for the job that you've done. So when you were working, let's say, at Waitrose, did you make a point of contacting people who'd shone in whatever way? And how did you go about it? What did you say to them? Was it something you kept up throughout your career? So yes, and it wasn't me. It was the whole organisation. So managers in the organisation were encouraged to recognise and thank people for good performance. We'd give them cards and postcards which they could write on. We encourage them to give a bottle of wine or a bunch of flowers to somebody who'd done something well. If they'd

been exceptionally good and they liked a particular football team, we encourage them to pay for that person to go and see their favourite football team or go to the theatre. So the culture was very much about recognising people that have done well. And your manager plays such a huge role. If you finish a piece of work and your manager has noticed what you've done, And it gives you feedback on that to say, that was brilliant, but you could perhaps do it a bit better. You could improve in this way. Or your manager said, that's fantastic. I'm really grateful for the effort, the energy you've put in.

That makes a huge difference how somebody doesn't work. No matter what job they're doing, and it drives a workplace, happiness and engagement. Well, we did have an interesting message actually from a listener earlier talking about line managers. Because in most of our lives, our working lives, that is the individual we come into contact with, if we actually come into contact with anyone in a more senior role than our own. And not everybody is good at managing other people, are they? No, no, they're not. I mean, I was very fortunate that I spent four years as the president and chairman of the Charter Management Institute.

And when I was there, a piece of work was done on what they called accidental managers. So it's people who were promoted into a management position. And they were either promoted because they'd gained a technical qualification, or they were promoted because they'd been around a long time and had experience. But what they hadn't had is any management in how you get the best from people, how you manage people careers, how you develop them, how you give them constructive feedback, how you keep them well informed, how you recognise good performance.

And the simple truth is, if your manager isn't interested in what you're doing, why should you be interested? So so much of good management comes down to your manager taking a real interest in you, your well-being, your performance, that you've got good information. So it's a critical factor. The Child Management Institute, that came out clearly in their research, and we see it in all the research we do at work all. Yeah, can you just tell us a bit about how you got started, Mark,

because I was interested in the fact that I don't think you came from a family of, well, people who were obsessed by work. Would that be right? I'm trying to be careful about what I said. Yeah, my dear old dad was, probably the most contented person you had ever meet in your life. And for him, work was a way of earning enough money to do the things that he wanted to and spend time with his family. And he made that very conscious choice that there was going to be a trade-off for him between work

and the other things that he wanted from his life. I've gone to the other end of the spectrum. And when I was running wait trails, I was working seven days a week, 80 hours a week, phoning managers up on a Saturday evening to find how they got on. And I made a conscious choice in a different kind of way. And one of the things that I talk about in my new book Work Happier is that one of the things that you need to do is to make that decision consciously for yourself. I mean, do you want to work 80 hours a week and really push it and, you know, drive the greatest possible pay or whatever you can achieve? Or do you want a different balance you're like? Do you want a job that's going to make you happy, you're going to have good colleagues, it's going

to give you fulfilment, but a job where you can spend time doing other things. And people consciously need to make that decision when they're deciding what they want to do with their working lives. Up to a point, the decision is, well, it has an impact on the rest of the family too. I mean, I'm sure you enjoyed talking to store managers late into a Saturday evening, but what impact did that have on the rest of the family? Well, you're right. It does have an impact. And I look back now and I think, well, did I get that balance right? In all kinds of other ways, I tried to compensate for that by, you know, on holidays, dedicating my time to my family and trying to, you know, spend quality time with them.

But it is a true choice. As you all know, in so many different areas of your life, there are never perfect balances and you make compromises. But you've got to feel happy with that compromise that you make. At that moment in time, you've got to say, and it's for all of us, you know, there are always some optimal decisions and optimal decisions that we have to make. And getting that balance right between what you're dedicating to your work or even your hobbies and what you're dedicating to your family, those are conscious choices you need to make.

There's no point saying I'm really unhappy because I haven't progressed in work in the way I wanted to. If you've made a conscious decision that, frankly, I'm going to do 95, I'm not going to really put in any more energy than I want to put in. But that doesn't mean you can't be happy 9 to 5. when you've made that conscious choice about what I want to get from my working life, what I want to get from my private life, being my family or my hobbies, etc. Yeah. And as an individual, sometimes if you are unhappy in the workplace, it might be time to confront the possibility that you are to blame for that,

that you at least might play a part. What do you say about that? Yeah, well, I talk about that in the book. I mean, and then you have to ask yourself, why are you unhappy? Why are you struggling to get on with people? Are you in the wrong job in the right company or are you in the wrong company and you need to make a move? So I think that you have to take personal responsibility for your working life. And as I said earlier, and I think this is so important, if something isn't right in your working life, there are two

positive things you can do about it and one negative thing you can do about it. The two positive things are, you can decide that not everything is perfect in your working life, but for whatever reason, you're going to put up with it, either because you're learning or it's short term or, you know, you need the money in the short term or something, but you decide consciously that you're going to let it go, you're going to let those things that frustrate you go, and you're going to get on with the job and make the best of it. The second thing you can do with positive is to address the thing that's concerning you. So if it's a problem with your line manager or a problem with your colleague, then you address it.

that's really positive. So they're the two positive things to do. The one negative thing to do is just to moan about it all of the time. To get home for work and say to your partner, oh, God, it's so terrible. It's another shocking day. Go out with your friends in the evening and say, oh, God, I hate my job. It's terrible. Get up in the morning and say to your partner, I don't want to go in today. Get into work and say to your colleagues, God, it's dreadful here, isn't it? It's not good. It's not good for you. It's not good for your mental health. It's not good for the job that you're in. It's not good for the you're in. And so what I would encourage people to do if they feel like that is to take those either two positive steps to say, in the round, I can live with this, tackle it with their

manager if they think that that's going to be the best thing for them, or they go and find a job where they will be happy in a company where they will be happy. Those are positive things that you can do, Jane. Can I bring in some audience reaction? Brace yourself, Mark. Now here's Heather. Actually, you might blush at this. Mark Price, nice man. I worked in Waitrose HQ in retail ops during the time he was MD. It was generally a happy place with work commitment, loyalty, reward and respectful behaviour for both customers and employees. Brilliant. And the same ethos he's advocating for now.

There you go. Lucy says, Jane and Fee, tell him to come back to Waitrose. John Lewis Partnership sacked all their middle managers to their regret, question mark, asks Lucy. What do you think about that, Mark? Oh, well, I left Waitrose 10 years ago, and I have to say I love the business and I love the John Lowe's partnership. I had 34 very, very happy years there because of the ethos of the business, which I talk through, which was you look after your employees. And if you do that, then your customers looked after and you have a successful business. And I've been very pleased that I've been able to set up work all.

And now I'm able to bring that ethos to hopefully thousands of companies. companies all over the world. So to recognise, as you said, right at the start, Jane, that when you think about it, it's a very obvious link that if people are happy in their jobs, they'll stay longer, they'll work harder, customers will get better service. So I'm trying to use my experience now and the data that we've collected to make that difference. But it's, it's very flattering that those people from Waitrose remember me from 10 years ago. Well, I was a diplomatic answer of your. Sorry, you said Workl. I said Work L earlier, so I take that back. I'm sorry about that. whichever way you want.

Okay. Fiona says, tell your guest, as the wife of a similar style family, it isn't great being the wife picking up all the pieces and who has basically facilitated the success of the worker in speech marks and giving time to your family at holiday time doesn't cut it, right? That's Fiona. And Jamie says, I'm not lost on the irony of somebody who works seven days, seven day, 80-hour weeks writing a book called Work Happier. But in fairness to you, Mark, you did point out that this is your choice,

It works for you, and you are the polar opposite of your lovely old dad, but it's horses for courses. Well, but that's right. That's the point I'm making. It's about the choices. It made me very happy to do that. By nature, I'm hugely competitive. I love sport when I was young. I played football and rugby and golf. And I love the competitive nature of business. I love the fact that weight trades was competing every week against St.sbury's and Tesco, and our team were trying to do the best they could do, and we were trying to drive things forward. And I was trying to motivate and encourage the team to do that. I loved that. I didn't regret one moment of it. But the comment about your other half is right. I put a dreadful strain on my wonderful wife, Judith. And, you know,

she sacrificed an awful lot for me. And I'm hugely grateful of that. And I do recognize it. And that comes back to my comment about the world isn't perfect. You know, it's really tough for women having children and thinking about that balance in their life going forward. We all have to make these choices, and they're not perfect. And, you know, my wife has been utterly brilliant. And she had a great career, and she decided to look after our kids and has supported me magnificently. And I thank you for that, but I do recognise the pressures that it's put on her.

So we all make choices, and, you know, we have to acknowledge, I think, both domestically and in work, that it's not perfect. We need to acknowledge that. Mark, it's Fee Glover here. Can I ask you quite a specific question? And I will just preface it by saying you haven't been at Waitrose for 10 years, which you've just noted to our audience anyway. The case of Tom Boyd, a young man with autism,

who asked to be paid for the work that he had been doing voluntarily, to which initially Waitrose said no. Asda came on board and said, well, we'll take him on. And I believe Waitrose then came back and said, oh, actually, we've reviewed his case. and we will give him a paid job now. Do you think that would have happened under your tenure at Waitrose? You know, I don't know fee.

And it's where there's a complication here between what you have to do legally and what you would want to do in a human capacity. And I would always hope that Waitrose would act in a human capacity to understand the needs of others and to give them job experience, etc., etc. I think and I can understand why then they've had a later reflection over if somebody is doing this contractually routinely for an extended period of time then under UK employment law you have to pay them and if you're paying them what do you pay them and how do you do that so I think that what they did in the first

instance was a very human decent thing and I would expect a business like waitress and John Lewis to do that I then think they probably tied themselves in knots with what's the legal position on this and what do we have to do and how do we comply. And, you know, unfortunately, that played out in the public field, which, you know, is regrettable for Waitrose and John Lewis. I mean, it definitely, I think it told a wider story, though, didn't it, about who feels welcome in the workplace and who doesn't? And actually, the statistics about people with learning difference or neurodivergency being given jobs, it's really, really poor. I think 95% of young people with learning differences are not in

work and actually these big organisations need to look at that. There must be jobs that those people can do and do really well. Well, I think that's right. I think you make a really good point fee. We have a responsibility as a society to try and help people into work, whatever their issues or their disabilities. But that does butt up against things like the national minimum wage. And if you've got two people who do you take for a job and da-di-da, so they're a whole host of more complex feelings. And what I would like to see is a route whereby people can be given the opportunity to go into work and to find that opportunity that you talk about fee that's right for them and they could do really well. And in the case of Tom, it struck me that the job that

he was doing in Waitrose was one that he could perform to a good standard and one that he enjoyed. So it is finding those opportunities but doing it in a way that it's going to be compliant with UK law and also recognising where we've got to with the national minimum wage etc and what it's going to cost to employ somebody mark price and as we were saying earlier we're not entirely sure who is going to naturally pluck this from the shelf would it be an employee would it been an employer let's hope it's both fee yeah that would be nice that would be nice yeah yeah because most of us spend a chunk of our life at work it is always much better if you don't dislike it

that's yeah that's as much as most people can hope for I guess I think a workplace that you're dreading going into every day and people that you are dreading seeing it's just such a horrible horrible thing to have to do it really is miserable and it conjures up all those memories of Sunday night homework doesn't it when you dread if you're working oh just horrible absolutely horrible and you know you're going to need to do it and you're going to have to do it.

But if you don't want to do it, then that's absolutely blumen awful. So we'd love your thoughts about happy workplace. We'd love your thoughts about everything that Mark Price has told us. We don't know what it is yet when we're recording this. So it could have been hellfire, in which case. Keep your thoughts to yourself. With Jane and Feat at times.org.

Good evening. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.