Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The Michael Ball boobage antenna (with Kirstie Allsopp and Phil Spencer)

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

It's hot in the studio today - Jane's stuck in a tuna rut, and Fi is stuck on the difference between beans and soup. Please bear with us. Jane and Fi also chat saucepan lid storage, multi-generational living, sun lounger kerfuffles, and driving instructors. Plus, presenters and property experts Kirstie Allsopp and Phil Spencer discuss the new series of 'Location, Location, Location'. Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, that's kind. Yes, no, you're very, very welcome. So in the end, nothing much happened yesterday, but something might happen tomorrow. That brings you up to speed with Britain's politics. Should we move on to everything else? I don't know.

It does feel. I think it's worth talking about because we don't know, people say the timeline, the timeline for an orderly transition and handover of the baton of the PM from one person to another. Could be anything from three weeks to about four months,

and I can't take this for four months. Or formal, no thanks. The pan will boil dry. Jane, I'd rather, it was on a fast boil. I don't want to slow simmer for the whole summer. Which brings us on to saucepanes. Oh my God, what a link. What a link, and I didn't do that deliberately at all.

There are just so many fantastic solutions. I'm so grateful for all of them. And we're grateful, too, to Sophie, who drew this controversy to our attention. This is from Tamasin, who's in Thailand. In answer to storing saucepan lids, we moved into this house in Thailand, and this dish rack was already in place above the draining board. It's brilliant. I can wash the saucepan lids, put them on the rack, no need to dry them.

As you can see that I do the same with my water glasses, they stay there until I need them again. No need to stack and drop and smash around in your saucepan cupboard, trying to match pans with lids. It has solved my lifelong dilemma in one fell swoop. So there we are. That's one possible solution. a rack that is purely for your pan lids. I don't think it is though, Jane. I don't want to start a domestic dispute. But it's basically the new modern steel or whatever equivalent

of the rack that's in the original Frankfurt kitchen, isn't it? Which was so clever because it was just a wooden rack where you can put all your plates. And it is in quite a lot of kitchen designs now. Just remind us what, this is a Frankfurt kitchen which the Germans invented after the second one. a war when space was at a premium. Yeah, when they were building very small

apartments. It's designed by a woman. It's got legendary status because it's just so well thought out. And one of the things is that rack that goes over the top of the sink, so you don't, you literally just wash them up and put them over. So I'm not disputing

the fact, Tamson, that this is a remarkable thing, but I'm not sure it is entirely for sauce panlids. I think you could be putting anything on there at all. However, Emma from Rutland and Claire, who doesn't identify her geographical location, and Denise from Brecon, who's about to leave for a holiday in Kefalonia, they've all got this incredibly sensible back-of-the-cubber door,

kind of either string or elastic or something. Net curtain wires, Denise says, yeah. That you are taping up to the size requirements of individuals. source band lid so they're just coseted there they're just they're placed in their rightful position and they're held against the side of the door bloody genius Jane

simple but perfect do you think that you're to be able to fit that yourself no no I need to get a man in because Claire obviously has done this herself and she's the one who says just get two curtain hooks in a line of curtain rail and Bob becomes your uncle The other ones look like they may have had a power tool

and a spirit level involved. I wouldn't really mind the curtain roll on myself but that's absolutely fantastic. Congratulations and thanks to everybody who contacted us on this important topic. Now we have great guests on the podcast today. Who are they? Kirsty and Phil are going to bob along

in about, I don't know, take your pick 10 minutes, 20 minutes, I'm a bit hungry, eight minutes time. Do you know, I am hungry too because I've fallen into what I call the Rabe trap. You know Dominic Rav. Oh, I know. So he had, what did he have? He had a cheese and tomato pretz sandwich.

No, he had a tuna baguette. Tuna baguette work. But he threw the tomatoes across the room every day, didn't he? Well, not every day. I mean, he's not here to defend himself. This was a Tory politician from, that now seem very sort of calm days of a conservative government here in the UK. Although I'll never forget.

I'll never forget that man, Dominic Rab's face on the day he became acting prime minister, and Boris Johnson was so ill in hospital. And he looked like... Shell shocked to the prospect. Yeah, I felt pretty shocked myself. Exactly, Dominic. If the camera had panned round to our living rooms,

pretty similar for us. Anyway, the man was stuck in a tuna baguette rot, and I'm exactly the same now with what I'm having every day, and I've got to snap out of it for you, but I can't, and I'm so excited about it. I know, and you did say to the entire team yesterday, I don't know how I haven't managed to convert you all to the tuna again, and we're like, well, she's not very interesting.

It's a flatbread. Yes, a flat bread. You crack on with it. Can I just say that Jeff is one of many people who has told me to be very, very careful with the key safe. What's the world coming to, Jane? Well, you can't trust a key safe. He says in your discussion last week about the dangers

getting caught out or locked out in your sleepwear or in these case swimwear while putting out the bins, I think I heard from you mentioned she has a key stashed in a lockbox outside the house. These seem like a key stashed. good idea, but please reconsider because burglars can easily break into the keyholder and then into the house. This recently happened to a friend of ours in very posh Kensington. That's where you live. It isn't. And in our less salubrious area of East London, that's where I live. We've seen a number of

key safes that have been broken into or completely destroyed. Please see the attached picks and you're absolutely right. So they've just been completely hived off the wall, haven't they, with a sledgehammer or something? And of course you've just got the keys and in you go. So what do I do instead? I mean, is it the right time to say I've also got a key safe? And it is useful because if you live with a younger person, they're ours and not always. Oh, it's just essential, Jo.

Yeah, because otherwise I'm getting downstairs in unsupported garments, opening doors at four in the morning. I'm not prepared to do that. And occasionally, just very occasionally, they've lost their keys. Yeah, well, that's what I mean. Yeah. So, yeah. I don't know what else to do.

I know that in some very, very new modern houses... Just to be emphasised, the property is still on the market. It's lovely your house. It's in a lovely area. Absolutely. So let's just be... I tell you what, it's still flooded with natural light. Absolutely flooded.

You can't move for natural light. So I've obviously gone to see lots of houses because I'm trying to move into one. I'm intrigued by this world because it's been ages since I did this. And just some of the... stuff that the estate agents come out with and I'd love to hear from estate agents

who are listeners to this podcast because I'm sure you're great but some of your colleagues are just they're just divvies so I was being shown around house by a very lovely young woman who was she was a little late to the viewing because she had obviously stopped at the end of the road to have a fag

I mean I can't complain I used to do that myself so in a haze of nicotine we visited this house in the East London area and it had a big basement room that had no real light in it. It was just a very, very big room in the basement. Yeah. But it did have its separate entrance. And she just kind of, with one waft of her hand,

she just went, multi-generational living. My dear, the 84-year-old Priscilla. He's not going to be happy with that. She's just going to get stuffed in that. Mom, get down in the basement. Get down into the multi-generational living room. No daylight. And then there was another one

that I went to it around on Saturday. And it was a beautiful house. It was a really, really lovely house. But the house next door was obviously being rented out to many people who had a good time. So there were kind of dead barbecues in the back garden, all that kind of stuff.

And they'd hacked into an adjacent piece of waste land going up to the railway track. Quite a big piece of land. And I said to the estate agent, oh, I'd be a bit worried about that because lots of people are building blocks of flats in the area and you'd get planning permission. And then your house would be so,

overlooked. And he said, oh, don't worry about that. The landlord's never there. He lives in the Canaries. I mean, he just wouldn't do a thing like that. And you just think he's exactly the person who would do a thing like that. But how thick do they think I am? I mean, just... I don't know how to answer that. No, it's a difficult one for you, I know. But I do wish there just reign in that level of stupidity. I've also had the geo-economic political situation explained to me by quite a few people. Oh, yes. Derek. And I'm okay. I'm pretty across it actually at the moment and I would say Derek

you're not so much Derek sometimes it pays to have a little knowledge before you impart what you perceive to be knowledge to others I just don't think that the mortgage interest rates are going to go back down to 1% over the next 12 months

I think it's unlike yes sorry about that anyway any clues on what we could do instead of key safes we would be very very grateful well um i did once um part own a fake rock have you ever seen these do you know what i'm instantly worried about

part oh well it was with my then husband oh okay and uh we kept a case were these in more impeculeous times we kept a was it a fake rock fake pebble either way it didn't look entirely out of place in the setting in which it found itself and there was a key slid into there you see That's so clever.

Yeah. Who got custody of that? I think he did, actually. I'm still upset. Canny. Very canny. I'm still dead. Yes, and people have that.

And then I've got a fake tin of Heinz soup, which I keep in my store covered. And I don't remember what I keep in there, but I think you can keep things in there that are useful. Blimey. Well, I think keys mainly, but I don't want to tell anybody that. Okay. But somebody's breaking into the house.

using the key safe and finding the fake kind of soup. And have you ever found that incredibly frustrating where you've just kind of glanced at it and thought, oh, it's a lovely can of baked beans and I have those at 5.30 tonight come home and found it's a chub. It's, as I said, soup, not beans. Beans, I'm so sorry. No, it's not beans.

It's soup. God, oh, my time. I know you're a, you know, you've got a lot on your mind with the troubles at Downing Street, but heaven's above. Let's bring in Gita Oh thank God for Gita Thank God you're here

She is currently in Rio de Janeiro On route to Sao Paulo today Calm down love Honestly lucky lucky thing Regarding the recent payout By a holiday company to the German family For the non-availability of sunbeds Due to other holiday makers

Reserving or Toweling them I'd like to recount a system we faced When we went on holiday About 20 years ago To a hotel on the Adriatic coast of Italy We, a couple, were each allocated two sunbeds with a parasol in the hotel's portion of the beach front. There were no arguments. It was assumed that children, stroke toddlers, would not require a sunbed as they were busy playing, either in the sand or in the sea.

All the families there came and went as they liked, even took time for a siesta after lunch in their apartments, and a peaceful time was had by all. Why don't hotels make sure there are enough sunbeds to allocate to all the occupants around the pool in two or three rows, if needed. Those who are not allocated sunbeds should not be charged the same as those who are. Fair is fair. I'm with her. I'm completely with her. But it is a puzzle. Why is there that morning kerfuffle to reserve a sunbed? And what would happen if you were at a hotel where you had allocated sunbeds but you didn't like the sunbeds you had been allocated? Some people like shadier places. Well exactly. I have to go in the shade. Yeah. So that could be complicated. But it makes it makes it makes, it makes, it makes, It makes perfect sense. And I think especially if you're on a big beach, it makes perfect sense to be able to go back to the same place every day.

Well, can't they just number the sunbeds with the number of the room? They could do that too, could surely. I know some rooms are occupied by two or three or four people. It does get complicated. But I've never understood that. The whole battle to get a place by the pool or whatever it might be. And the tension for me is very real because I am the nominate. I'm the only adult, except my children are now adults. our sunshine breaks that we have every year. My children are so lucky when I think about it. Anyway, we do have some fun. But the responsibility to get the sunbed.

It's always mine. I mean, they've grown up in other ways, but they're not prepared to take that on. No, I bet they're not. And you're probably up a good couple of hours before them. And I would find it incredibly difficult to weigh up my choices. I like to be pretty early, if not first, at the buffet, with being pretty early first on the sunbed scout.

So, you know, I don't want to leave it until the eggs have gone a little bit plasticy. And the hash browns are cold inside. So it is very tricky. Yeah. Very tricky. I'm sure you're going to pay people, wouldn't you? What, pay someone to go and reserve your sunbed? Yeah, I bet you could.

I bet you could. I don't think it worked with my kids now. No, I wasn't thinking then. Oh, see, I'll try it. Yeah. You can have an ice cream. You can put it up on task rabbit or one of those things. Somebody from the hotel industry must be able to tell us,

do you have as many sunbeds as you have guests? And if not, why not? Right, that's a mystery that hopefully we'll solve. Yeah, it is. But I know also that you then, you get a slight kind of fear, don't you, at lunchtime, of leaving your sunbed if it doesn't actually belong to you? Because you just think somebody might come along

and think that you've gone on an excursion, whereas in fact you've just gone to the buffet, lunch buffet, this time round. and back. The pool bar is where I have my lunch on my sunshine breaks. You don't like to go back indoors. No, I understand that. You don't want to be declimatized

before you get climatized again. Exactly. Adam is the director of a limited company. And we welcome you. You're also a helpful man. It may not completely help those with a fear of motorway driving, but adaptive cruise control is your friend

and a fairly standard feature on many cars now. on motorways you can set your speed and if traffic ahead slows down, your car will slow down to and maintain a safe distance. It's also handy and slow stop-start motorway traffic. It will even perform an emergency stop if need be. I wasn't even aware of it as a feature

until we bought our most recent car. It's a 28-V-W. BASAT. Oh, is it? It is. Sorry, again, the VW Passat. Yes. But it makes motorways a breeze.

I hope it helps keep up the good work. I'm really, I'm such a technophobe about stuff like that in my car. because I always think I just need an awful lot of times to test this out before I'm going to trust it more than my own senses. But I know that lots of people say the cruise control is fantastic because it's just giving you, it's like a firm support, full-cut bra. And, you know, after a seven-age, we all need one of those.

God, I must book in a bra fishing. I was thinking about it. Oh, no, not again. How many times do you have, how many times do you have your bosoms looked at and fitted? Well, I'm fitting at least once a year. I mean, how much do you think your bubages is changing? I don't like to have, you know, I'd like to have plenty of bras available. Okay.

And if you're not wearing the right, as everybody knows, if you're not wearing the right bra, life can be very challenging. Right. So it's like a kind of vaccination for you, isn't it? It is, pretty much, yeah. Right. Stephanie says, I wanted to share my rather unexpected and deeply satisfying career transformation after listening to your recent chat about driving.

After spending decades in what our correspondent describes as a poorly managed misogynistic police service, where I encountered some of the finest examples of toxic behaviour from both the public and regrettably other professionals, I finally decided in my early 50s, enough was enough. So in what some may call a midlife crisis, but I prefer to call an inspired act of self-preservation, I retrained as a driving instructor. And here's the plot twist. I have somehow developed patience. This is particularly shocking because patience was not a quality.

Anyone who knew me in the police or my family would have listed among my strengths. Yet now I spend my days calmly saying things like, that's okay, the roundabout will still be there next time. And no need to indicate after you mounted the curve. The best part, I only work with lovely people. Nervous teenagers, excited learners, and adults determined to conquer reverse parking, are infinitely more pleasant than dealing with career ladder climbers and workplace politics.

For the first time in 50 years, sorry, no, I've just put in 50. I don't know why. That's true, nonsenseical. That's me being an incredibly appalling journalist, just adding a figure because I felt like it. I don't know why my brain did that. I'm going to read what the email actually says. For the first time in years, I wake up looking forward to work. I choose who I teach, when I work, and if I fancy a day off, I take one, without filling out three forms and waiting six weeks for approval.

Most importantly, this late in life career change has restored my faith in human nature. That's from Stephanie. That's great. Fabulous. That's really good. And you must have to, obviously, you have to have buckets of patience for that job, don't you? Yeah, but isn't that interesting that someone who didn't really think that they had much patience has come to realise, in fact they do, in huge amounts. enjoying having it by the sounds of it. Yeah, that's very good.

Well, I'll be blowed. I'm mentioning this just so we can do a little bit of a plug for something else. So here we go. Wendy from Fife. Her PS is sorry to hear that Eve is feeling a bit unwell. You're much better now, aren't you? You can put your microphone up. You're very quiet these days.

Thanks, Wendy. I'm feeling much better. But good to hear from Rosie, who doesn't get enough at her time. She's all right. Hello, ladies, says Wendy, much nicer than women. and I just had to take finger to keyboard listening to yesterday's podcast. This is from a while back,

whilst getting ready, when you mentioned digging your scene by the blow monkeys, and just had to interrupt your ramblings and ask Alexa to play it. Alexa will have gone off now if you're playing this on Alexa. OMG, I'd forgotten about this great track now added to my playlist.

Now, there are three playlists up, aren't there, in our off-air playlist section of Spotify. The very latest one is called Coiled Spring. And quite a few people have emailed in to say that they've thoroughly enjoyed it. I don't think it's bad at all. Yeah. So get your ears around that and we will definitely, definitely do a sunlander one for summer holidays.

And what is the book for book club? Well, you're the woman who doesn't know the difference between soup and beans. And I confess I have forgotten. I'm really sorry. Actually, you know what? I think it'd be better as you if you put your microphone on and just said. Interpreter of Maladies by Jumper Lahiri. I think one of the reasons that we haven't been plugging it

is because we don't have physical copies yet in the office because I'm on a bit of a wild goose chase. We've been a bit lax recently. Our apologies for that. But it does mean that you get a nice kind of breather from the book club and when we meet again, it will be with verve and spirit. Lorraine comes in with bore mate and I've done some very hefty journalistic research on this

because when I read it this morning, I thought that cannot be true. That is a complete pistake. Lorraine is a long-time listener and former frequent emailer and you've had a horrible time over the last couple of years. But I hope that things are a little bit, not better, Lorraine, but I hope that you feel that you can cope better now with what life has thrown at you.

Lorraine's email is extraordinary. Way back in the 70s and what a memory to have. A group of researchers did some experiments with a synthetic pheromone spray used to stimulate the standing reflex in sows. No explanation needed there, I imagine. I had to look it up, Lorraine. It was called bore mate, that's B-O-A-R.

They tried spraying it on other things to see what would happen. Back then, Paddington Station had rows of coin-operated public phones on the concourse. They sprayed two of the booths with bore mate, and within a couple of hours, the coin banks of both were jammed with coins. They also tried doctoring the programs for a theatre production press night. The male critics universally loathe the play. The female critics raved about it. I can't remember the other things they sprayed,

but it was enough to convince me that pheromones are powerful stuff. On a final note, I read a biography of Aristotle Anassas, and several of his mistresses said he smelled incredible, as apparently did Margaret Thatcher. It's a wonderful email, Lorraine. There's a lot going on there. With the bore mate. So it is an actual thing.

and you can still buy it and it's still used. The standing reflex, I mean, would you know what that was? No. No. It's just the way that a female cow will stand in order to make it easier for the... Oh, enough. God.

So that's a thing as well. What was going on at Paddington Station? That's the bit I don't get. So people were just getting completely and utterly overcome. because of this pheromone. But do you know what? What about you just waiting for the 420D Oval? Well, and suddenly,

suddenly, your mind is full of other things. Oh, for heaven's sake. So I couldn't verify that using two sources, as we like to do back at the old place and here as well, that that actually happened at Paddington Station. But there is quite a lot of stuff about ballmate and how it's being used. I can't believe that some nefarious commercial organisation

hasn't, you know, slightly gone to take. with that? I can't no, I can't believe it either. I think a little more of your research is required here. Dare I say it because I know you're very busy, but you might want to put a few more hours in. Yes, but it's an extraordinary memory to have

Lorraine. Yeah, no, thank you Lorraine for that. Some advice for the correspondent who was really pondering what to do. She's got a beautiful baby son and she wasn't sure about going back to work as a musician. This is just one point of view, I should say, from an anonymous correspondent, but she tells us this.

I used to be a musician. I also had a baby at 40 with a partner who's also a musician. We talked about him getting a day or two teaching work like I had so that we'd both have some solid income for sure whilst freelancing or playing on the side to free us some time for us both. But this never materialised on his side. He carried on as before while I went to teaching after five months to work in the day so he can work in the evening and this hasn't changed. being a musician was so much my identity that to be honest, now a decade later, I don't really know who I am.

I'm putting on a bit of an act as a mother and a teacher. If my old music comes back into my head, I just try to shut it off. Having the day job and the salary and then sitting at home many evenings with the kids while my partner is off playing has become my normal. Enough time has passed that I have to accept

I won't now go back to playing and my partner has and is never going to change his ways. We've muddled through and just kept going. We've talked about it, and he's full of excuses. If we split up, it would hurt us all the more. Oh dear. Okay, I really see what you're up against there. So I just wanted to say to the musician,

think carefully before you step away. It isn't super easy to get your foot back in the music world. It all just moves on without you. I know I'm lucky to be a mum, now to two children and to have a job, but I don't feel like, quotes, myself, and I don't think that will change. Thank you for that and I appreciate your honesty.

So I suppose the massive caveat and preface that we always have to give is that your version of motherhood, your version of identity is completely unique to you and that's what makes this time of your life so difficult where you're trying to see around a massive corner

as to whether or not this very powerful new feeling of identity which is what Laura was having is the identity that really fits and is going to stay fitting for a long time. I mean, I think it is almost impossible to know, Jane, almost impossible to know. And the truth is for so many women

that you might take a chance that it is and then find out further down the line that it actually isn't and it will be harder to get back into work. The solution isn't for any woman to change the way that she thinks about this. It is for society to be more. more welcoming to women who've taken time out.

I mean, it's just, it's as simple as that. Because why should you have to choose your identity and for that to remain your identity for the next 20 or 30 years of your life? So I have enormous sympathy for the correspondent, enormous sympathy. But also, if in fact yourself and your identity is as a mum who wants to be at home with the kids...

Well, that's... That's up to you. Yeah. I think what she's really talking about is the contrast between the real compromises she's had to make and the fact that her partner doesn't appear to have compromised. Yes, but again... We don't know what his thoughts are,

and sometimes being the so-called main breadwinner is quite a responsibility and not something that every man really wants but gets lumbered with it. It's difficult. And we are not making it easy for really... For very paternal men

to make the choice to be the one who stays home or takes more of a hit with their career. We're really, really bad at that. We're still talking about, you know, massive great big tropes and prejudice. I don't think we really give enough respect or actual airtime or thought to men

who give up their careers. They're still such a pastiche in comedy, apart from anything else. So I think we've all got a very, very long way to go. I worry for women who find in motherhood something they didn't realize they had. I just think that kind of society asks you to knock that bit out of yourself. And I think just by dint of the kind of woman who then has a powerful voice further down the line,

which is probably a woman who stayed in work, I'm not sure that other voice gets heard. And I think it was the secret behind the success of Mumsnet. Suddenly there was a place for people to go where they felt that they were being seen to. It's so difficult. It's so difficult. There is no easy solution to any of the, this. I just wanted to mention this from a listener called Kate. I just wanted to write back

about that violinist who's just become a mother torn between going back to work without the baby or staying at home. There is a third way. Our correspondent Kate says it's exhausting but also exhilarating and that's to take the baby with you together with dad or a friend or a sister or your mum. Music is one of the professions where this is possible. I did several tours with each of my two baby sons. Sometimes my musician husband came. Sometimes it cost everything I earned on the gig to pay the flights and costs for my cousin or another friend, or sometimes babysitters booked through the hotel reception staff. But it meant I could hold onto my work and stay in performing shape. In my case, I was really anxious about losing the good flow of work I'd built up and the

identity that this work gave me. There were evenings that I was in tears from exhaustion before the concert began, yet each night when I'd returned to the hotel to find the baby in my bed and to be able to feed him, I just felt so rich being able to have the work I loved and this new life as a mother. Kate, thank you very much for that. It doesn't sound easy what you did, but it looks like you found a way of making it work. Very much so. And do you know what, Jane, the demise of the workplace creche has an awful lot to answer for, massive amount to answer for. Do you remember when we were talking to a representative of Google and And she was incredibly keen to tell us what a very equal workplace it was for women

and how women were very, very much encouraged to come back after having children. But Google didn't have a crash. No. So, you know, it is just a fact. Preschool, it's so much easier. I think if you can drop your kid off in a place where you're not too far away, you're not having to take four types of transport to go in the other direction before you even go to work.

Yeah. So there's a lot that companies could be doing as well. I just note that Charles Brandreth is currently on Times Radio. Is he paying tribute to somebody? No, I think he's talking about something to do with grandparenting, isn't he? Oh, is he? Okay, right. Because we got 754 emails into the inbox. Eve's nodding.

Yeah, it's all right. I've said that. It won't get you into trouble. Oh, people want us to interview him. We're not going to call it the get of the year. We should say, by the way, well, Eves are good for. Colleagues aren't listening into that.

They're not. No, they're not. Don't worry. So we've got Kirstyfieldfield today. It's Michael Ball Day tomorrow. It's our annual Michael Ball Day. Does it coincide with you having your boobs smet? It coincides on deal up with me thinking, I must book an appointment.

I don't know what that tells you. Let's explore that. Final one from Julia, listening to you talk about fines for not having in-date rail cards, etc. Did you go home and check yours? Well, I realised I couldn't get my senior rail card until I was 60, and it lasts for three years, and I'm not yet 63. So I'm fine. You're okay.

But thank you for asking. Have you noticed that the staff who come around to check your tickets on the train, the ticket inspectors of my youth, are now called, wait for this, everybody, revenue protection managers. Or at least they are on London Northwestern. I think this strongly supports these thoughts that a far more stringent approach is now being taken. Thank you very much indeed for noticing that, Julia, a revenue protection manager. Well, in many ways it's an important role, but it does seem a little highfalutin.

And by the way, fair dodging. Very annoying. Don't do it. Don't do it. Very annoying, but just not being able to access the app on your phone because your phone has died and then getting fined 135 pounds for doing it. That's also not nice. No.

Not nice at all. You're making us, you know, there aren't any places you can go to actually physically buy a ticket. So you're shoving us onto the technology. It's not our fault if it fails. Is this a personal vendetta? I didn't feel like one at all. Let's talk tiled splashbacks in the company of Kirsty and Phil.

Kirsty Olsop and Phil Spencer have become part of the fabric of our TV nation, part of the bricks and mortar of our property landscape too. For the last 26 years, no Channel 4 schedule has been complete without allowing the two of them to tour the country, finding homes for frustrated buyers, from first-timers to downsizing grandparents in location, location. Location? Thank you. That's 45 series, good guess.

We don't be a while to prefer. 750 potential buyers, 1,800 houses viewed, and millions of us recumbent on our sofas at home, just waiting for Kirsty to suggest knocking down a wall and for Phil to find yet another kind way of gently telling somebody to stop being so fussy. They came in to tell me all about the new series. We start in Surrey is the first episode and I think the separate episode is Leeds. It's a series of nine. We've got five originals and four. revisit. Leeds was a really

quite an intense show because they were very young couple and one was a nurse and the other was a paramedic and they had both decided to stay at home while at university in order to save up and sometimes I always feel responsible but sometimes I get an overwhelming feeling of responsibility well because responsibility because of what

Do you think that you two... They're so young. They're so young and they've worked so hard and they've saved up and they've made real, real, real sacrifices in their life. And it's just like which is the right house for them. And it's patronising, obviously, and I shouldn't feel that way and I should be equal. No, that's wrong. People who are older and they bought a house before and they've probably got a little more experience about this. But with the younger couples, I do feel a sense of...

Well, it's a very big decision. It's a massive decision. And Kirstie and I consider it a great privilege to work at close quarters to that and have influence over and to help them through that decision. It's always scary. It's never 100%. It's never cut and dried. So it's a lovely place for us to work. How much has changed since you first started doing the show in terms of how affordable housing is and the type of people you're seeing and the type of house that they're able to buy?

Well, the average age of the first-time buyers now, it's about 32. When we started 25 years ago, it was probably about 25, 26. It's affordability has shot through the roof. Mortgages were much more expensive when we first started, but things were more affordable. And then they went very cheap. And that's a problem. And so no, it's one of the most difficult things to understand. and to say, and I have to say it out loud as often as I can, while we've really loved our job

and we want to continue doing it for as long as possible, we haven't managed to move the dial one centimetre on making it easier to buy a home. So if you were put in charge as people who have spent a lot of your working lives in property, what would your change list be? Let's take it in turn. The top five, in at number one, Phil Spencer. It's about trying to speed up transactions and make them faster. The longer they take, the greater the chance that someone in a change situation will alter, they change the mind they pull out.

And there are millions, if not billions of pounds, wasted every year by aborted deals. So 30% of deals never... 30% of deals agreed, as in, I'll accept your offer, never come to have fruition. By which time people have spent money on solicitors and surveyors

and emotional... input. So that's tragic. So number one, improving the transaction system and doing it straight away. Number two, sorting out the situation with flats. The government needs to step in and become an insurer, an underwriter, and sort out the cladding issue and the leasehold issue, and that needs to be done, because it's causing terrible problems. Three, getting together with communities to build more smaller units so that every single village in the country, has eight to ten houses on the edge of it like they did after the war. Rather than big developments.

Rather than big developments. There are places for big developments, new towns and that kind of thing. But a lot of it is about having a good local developer who is really incentivised to build good quality local, low-cost homes. And an awful lot of people will walk around an inner city and think, well, why can't that massive office? development over there that's been empty for 17 years, be converted into small residential units, maybe with a nice big communal space. Why? Why doesn't that happen?

Well, unfortunately, it depends on which way you're looking at it, but the restrictions on the health and safety and the fire regulations now, building in urban areas, make it extremely difficult, if not verging on impossible for a developer to make any money. And there's not a lot of data to support that the fact that whether they're saving any lives or not. We are not data-driven enough. We don't drill down into this stuff and really work out what would make people safer and what would

make people able to have homes that they can afford. So given all of that, I mean, we've covered in just seven minutes some fantastic ideas that people will be going, yes, yes, yes, yes, do that. Why? Why doesn't it change? We have an absolute housing crisis in this country. We do. I think that

politicians across the board, and this is not one party or another, don't listen. They don't listen. I was talking to a headmaster the other day and I said to him, does the education minister have various experienced teachers

that she talks to? And he looked at me and he went, in my long experience, education ministers want to make their mark. And I think that is very, very telling. Politicians come in and they want to make their mark.

The housing situation that we're all in at the moment has been born out of 25, 30 years of housing policy. And it's all quite short-terminism actually to get us out of the situation. We need a long term that everybody buys into and is left alone and not tinkered with. Do you think one of the other problems is that very few people right at the top of the tree have real lived experience of housing difficulties? I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of people in Parliament, they're more likely to be landlords than tenants,

and they're more likely to be home owners than renters. Do you think that plays a part? I think they would say that they had lived experience when they were younger, but the problem is that MPs are allowed to homes because they work in two different places. And they think that that's fine and we actually pay for them. But with their taxation policies, they punish anyone else who, because of their work or their family situation

or care for their parents or a divorce need two different homes. The problem is that people, when Angela Raina got in such a pickle, it was because she didn't understand a tax that her party had brought in. God, nobody understood that tax. Did they do you understand that tax?

I did. I was on a show, which is on another channel, so I won't speak about it, reviewing the papers. And I said, oh my word, Angela Raina is going to be paying a lot of second home stampche. Yeah, I mean, it was complicated by the,

the trust for her son as well, wasn't it? Which meant it was a very difficult thing to understand. We bring in these pieces of legislation and these taxes. We don't understand them. I'll tell you one that would be super easy to bring in, that would make a massive difference. Just remove stamp duty for first-time buyers.

Not difficult. And it would impact hugely. The whole market needs first-time buyers. We need people to be able to join the ladder. I do want to talk about cushions, knocking down walls, and your love-hate relationship. on air, but one final question. The Renters Rights Act is a very important piece of legislation

that has just gone into law. Do you think that that will change the situation enough in this country and actually change something about our mindset towards rental accommodation? It's been mishandled. The implementation of it isn't right. What should have happened is that the changes should have been for new tenants because a lot of landlords have served people. notice because they're afraid of what's going to happen. If it had been slowly implemented, it would have protected current tenants because a landlord would want to keep a good tenant, and it wouldn't have freaked out the landlords because we are going to have a real drop. We need the private rental sector. 19% of homes are rented from private landlords.

As a government, we can't, you know, as I'm not in the government, but as a state, we can't afford to take over that. So we need to have private landlords. feeling confident and we need tenants to feel confident and both things can happen simultaneously if you handle it the right way. But do you think, Phil, that we would ever see a television program that was about the sexy jeopardy of finding rental accommodation in the way that location, location is about buying?

I'm afraid not because it feels like there is less emotion involved in renting something for a year, two years, three years, than putting down 10%, 20%, and buying it and living there for 10 years. However, what is absolutely true is at the moment, because landlords have been selling up, there's less to choose from. In fact, I was looking at the stats last week.

There are seven tenants for every available property at the moment. So that does make it really tense, really stressful and really emotional. It isn't the same heartfelt or sort of gut sense. of you're putting down on hundreds of thousands of pounds but it's still quite stressful. Let's talk about your TV relationship. Kirsty, do you ever think that you're a little mean to Phil?

No. Phil? What do you think? I've always loved you, think. No, she's not mean at all. But sometimes you can do the most fantastically slightly put upon man, Phil. Do you realise that you can do that?

Yes, I do. Yes. And so does that annoy you, Kirsty? I think it is edited to make me look meaner to Phil than I actually am. I do all sorts of things to make Phil's life genuinely easier. It's true. And the edit is it's done in a certain way. And Phil does put on a put-upon face.

But, you know, I live with that. You know, it's the manor sphere. I love your... I love all of your outfits on location, location, location. you have absolutely nailed what is actually a very difficult combination. I'll come back to you, Phil in a sec, but we're just going to talk scarves here, which is a big scarf, but quite a light floral dress. I know, it's a weird one, and I didn't realize that it was a thing,

and now I realize it is a thing. So even on a hot day, you'll have a massive great big scarf. It's partly that the sandmen cry if I don't have my scarf, because they love just having. The soundmen. Sound. Sound operators. Because sand recordists.

They love the scarf because they just... But also, it's partly that that thing that weather is so changeable in the UK. So changeable. You know, we can... I know it's a cliche, but we do have four seasons in one day. And if you always have a scarf, as you do now, Fee,

you're always protected from getting a chill. Yeah, that's very true. I'm mainly work because I'm just covered in love bites. Now, do you mind that on the podcast, we refer to you as Home Counties Hotty? I'll take that I think that's very flattering emasculating Phil in which case

I'm so so sorry we'll never do it again I'll take that thank you right there's no further question on that at all when we started this conversation you two both said that you felt a bit responsible I mean there is something as well

isn't there about the almost kind of pornification of property on television that has definitely contributed to our desire to plump up the cushion, spend the money, buy big, have bling. I mean, do you ever think, oh, if I'd known where we were going to end up, we would have done it differently at the beginning? I don't think so.

But when we started making the show, A, we were the first property show. And then there weren't any property websites at that point. I'm very categorical about this, because this is a question. That's unlike you. And I have examined my conscience very closely on this. we are and always have been a show about buying homes and we give people advice about buying homes and about the long term

the family work all of those things and that's the advice we've always given and that's never changed we're not an investment show we never have been there have been other shows and some of them are very good but the show that we've always made is the show about finding someone a home and it's you know I use the comparison to Jamie Oliver we have an obesity crisis in this country and nobody thinks it's Jamie Oliver's fault

for going on the telly and talking about delicious food. You know, there are loads of things that contributed to the situation we're in now. Cheat mortgages, buy-to-let mortgages, attacking pensions and therefore people seeking other forms of investment other than pensions. Loads of different things. I genuinely don't believe that Phil and I are the reason

that we are in a crisis of affordability. about homes is really important isn't it? You're right. It's not about investments. It's about where a family is going to fit in. How many walls do you think you have wanted to have knocked down and how many have actually been knocked down? Now that is where I am responsible for something. That is where I do feel guilty

because nobody knew that COVID was coming. And a lot of people suddenly their home was not suitable because of COVID. Right. Because a big family kitchen was fantastic until you were suddenly working from home and homeschooling and your partner was working from home. And then a big family kitchen was the sort of den of hell. So now you want to put the walls back up? And now you want to put the walls back up.

Okay. Yes. So that is something I feel guilty about. Right. When you do the negotiations at the end of the program, are you really talking to an estate agent? 100% of it. Are you?

Yeah, very, very much. And sometimes it can take hours. I mean, literally, it could take a couple of hours. because it might be to and throw back to the vendor, back to the agent, a bit more of a discussion at our end. Or a couple of days. I mean, I was talking to an agent at 6.30pm on Friday, having initially started the conversation in the pub on Wednesday.

And he said at the end, I said, Christian, remember, you've got my number. If there's any problem ring me, please, there will be blips in the road, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he went, I've got to tell you something. I thought it wasn't real. And I went, really? He went, yeah, I said, after 26 years, there are still people that think it isn't. real? Well, it's because some of the other programs, I mean, especially the one

where people are escaping to sunshine, I don't think those are real if I can be brutally honest here. It's heavily edited. And sometimes I think it's edited a bit too quickly because they're really fascinating conversations about which house and why and how much and the tactics behind

the offering sequence and things like that. He's touched that question. He's totally dodged that question. That's really professional. Yeah. It's because he's a smooth operator, isn't he? Yeah. Home count. is hot, yeah, I'll put that on your t-shirt. Is there one particular family,

one particular circumstance, one particular house that just really sticks in your mind throughout this very, very long-running, must be one of the most long-running. I think it probably is. I would say people that have come to us for help who have been involved in some kind of trauma or really, really challenging life situation.

and come to us and we've said we'd love to help we've then absolutely got to help we've got to deliver you can't work with someone for three days who's had a horrible thing happening in their life and then go sorry we didn't manage to help we've got a great TV program see ya that's not going to happen so we've actually got to properly deliver and that ups the ante

and I love that and there is one person that feels talking about who is actually this has happened a few times We've had people gone through really, really tough times. And we've loved having them. Wonderfully, we have had some success. The cushions, how are your cushions? Immaculate. No, never sat on.

No, no. My son had some friends around last night. Oh, no, you'll have to get home quickly tonight. I came down this morning and I was just like, no. So I think you need to explain the cushion, love. Okay, so I like a cushion to have a certain plumpness to it. and I, like, put air into them and arrange them in a certain way. Do you do the K chop on top?

No, I don't do the chop, actually. And I know it's a bit divisive the chop, but I'm not a chop fan. And so I like them to look a certain way and all be a certain way. And then people sit, and that's distressing, and I find it rather triggering. I like to sit on the floor and lean on the sofa, and so that no one actually sits. It's just so bizarre. I'm sorry. What's the point in having a sofa?

Don't go there. Do not go there. Let's move on. It looks nice. I'm sat next to her. Yeah. Okay. So doesn't it become very frustrating

when you go into houses that are very messy? Yes. Yes. Do you have to stop her from rearranging things, Phil? Yeah. She goes to a certain colour when it's not clean. Yeah. No.

She struggles. I do. I do. It's hard. I do. Yeah. I can believe you there. It's an absolute pleasure to see you both.

Thank you very much indeed for coming into Times Towers. Thanks for having us. We'll look forward to watching the next series. Does the view get talked about? Not enough. No, it is absolutely stunning. It's so nice to be here. And you have an actual real life window and you can see the weather.

And you see all those amazing buildings on Canary War. It's lovely. When you're at home listening to the radio, I think that's fascinating. No, because I think you can look it up these days. We are visualised. We can look it up, yes. And anyway, look, there's a camera, Phil.

I've got news for you. Those people who can see you and I can see the view. They can see the, what's that, the walking talk. Anyway, lovely, see. She's great. Absolutely pleasure. Absolutely pleasure. Bye now.

Girsty and Phil, and please don't worry, Phil was in no way emasculated. In fact, he was absolutely chuffed by the moniker that we've given him on this podcast, so don't email in. Mike, we don't want to hear you. What were we called yesterday? We were called... This is a WhatsApp to the live radio show, I should say.

Pound shot loose women. I know, so insulting. But we're going to have t-shirts made with that on. We love the radio audience. They're so good at keeping in touch. We love your emails slightly more. So keep them coming. Jane and Fee at Times.

and we'll be back tomorrow on what is Michael Ball Day and Jane's Boob Expansion Day of it. Maybe it's boob shrinkage. I don't know. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live,

and we do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you'd listen to this, you'll understand. exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.