Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The more parochial the rumpus, the better (with James Nelson-Joyce)

Episode Date: April 16, 2025

Are you close to a pigeon fancier? We want to hear from you! Jane and Jane also chat James Bond, healthcare and Touchnote. Plus, actor James Nelson-Joyce discusses Liverpool-based gang drama ‘This City Is Ours’. Send your suggestions for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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The Secret Side Hustle is broadcasting. The Secret Side Hustle is broadcasting. The Secret Side Hustle is broadcasting. The Secret Side Hustle is broadcasting. The Secret Side Hustle is broadcasting. The Secret Side Hustle is broadcasting. The Secret Side Hustle is broadcasting. It's not that secret. I could have picked a better secret side hustle. It's true. Hello. We still don't know what this is, but you're welcome to it. It's another edition of Off Air and Jane Mulcairn's is my sidekick this week. I mean, she's much more than a sidekick. Fido is back on Tuesday of next week when I'm away, but then I'm back the week after

that. I might sidekick for her in your absence. Might you? But obviously not as well. Sorry, I was listening the week after that. I might sidekick for her in your absence. Might you? But obviously not as well. Sorry, I was listening to you, Jane. Well, I was looking at you and I was listening to Eve, who's just pointing out that due to the fact that there's a bank holiday in the UK on Monday, because it's Easter Monday, there won't be a podcast on Monday.

No. I know that you'll be here next week as well. Yes, but we'll miss you. Yes, but we'll miss you. But I'm already, I mean, this is how much I'm ready to play you in your role next week, is that I had a dream with you in it last night. Okay. So me, you, our colleague Callum MacDonald and some other people who don't work at Times Radio, in fact they weren't people in our lives, all went skiing. Really? Oh God, I don't think I... well, did I do well?

Well, in the dream we didn't even get to the slopes because we were waiting for our pick-up, our transport, and we were doing shots. But from one of those backpacks that runners wear where you get the water from a little straw, we were doing shots out of someone's backpack. It was very fun. It was like a sort of stag and hen do of people who work at times down. Okay well do you know what country we were in? Not a clue. Okay I've only been skiing once in my life and I was so humiliated I fell over and I did it like a really basic basic beginners course for the elderly

because I was I think in my late 20s when first went. And I kept falling over and I kept being picked up by these six year olds. I just thought, I can't do this. But there's nothing like a croque monsieur on the slopes. Maybe it's time for me, you and Callum, to go on a little trip. No worries, don't. He's a lovely lad, isn't he? I get the impression he's the kind of person who'd carry your bags. Oh, 100% and he'd pick you up if you fell over. Yeah he would and he's more than six, although not much more.

Not much more. He's astonishingly talented. No, he's done an awful lot of things and he's very talented. He's a very young man. Six and a half. Yeah. Thank you for the postcards. I hope all of you have seen on the Insta, Jane and Fee on the Insta, the fantastic collage of cards that Young Eve has put together. I mean she's done ever so well, it's like a school project and she's

absolutely excelled at it and the cards keep coming and she couldn't be more delighted. She's a secret crafter I think. Very secret, yeah. I love this one today from I Hope It Is Alexa, who sent this amazing image in, a black and white image from the Second World War from 1941, which apparently the British authorities censored. Can you just describe it, Jane Markerans? So, it's men in dresses. Yeah. Are they stoking something?

They're certainly operating some heavy machinery. They are. They're at war. Oh wait, no, it's a large gun. Yes. It's a large gun. They're wearing dresses, pit helmets, ammunition and stoking a gun. Okay and I'll give you the official explanation. Gunners of a coastal battery were rehearsing a charity Christmas show when the alarm went. They had to run to man the guns the British authorities did decide to censor the image back in the 1940s during the war it would obviously be very bad for morale actually the opposite would have been true I think it just shows their commitment to their duty but there is just something

priceless about the fact they are wearing frilly sort of crinoline effect dresses and their helmets and they are yeah they're operating a coastal gun battery I mean it's absolutely incredible speaking morale yes I've got a question for our listeners okay I want on a date with someone last week very talented how old was this? Memories of VE Day? I went, no he definitely wasn't alive, even in the Falklands I don't think. He's extremely young. There's a whole other podcast here but carry on.

So he's a very talented young musician. Oh, musician, okay. And incredibly smart about many, many things. But I suspect possibly a little bit of a wind-up merchant. And he was trying to tell me that pigeons were responsible for us winning the Second World War. Because apparently... What stage in the evening did you get onto this? We hadn't even... We were like two sips in. Okay. World War because apparently... What stage in the evening did you get onto this?

We were like two sips in. He said that when... he said that basically, you know, Morse code, whatever, things weren't working, communication behind enemy lines, that we relied on well-trained pigeons and apparently pigeons have just not been given the respect or credit for helping us win the second world war. If anyone would like to tell us whether I was being absolutely let up the garden path there. I hesitate to ask this. Is there going to be a second date? Well that was a second date. I'm not sure that there'll be a third. Not because of the pigeons. Other factors at play. Is he a pigeon fancier? No, but he does think that they've been unfairly maligned as vermin and that they're actually incredibly smart.

He says that they are one of the four animals who have self-awareness as dolphins, whales and pigeons. Again, I mean, I could just look this up, couldn't I? But anyway. I think we'll put it out to the hive mind. And we have all sorts of people listening, so if you are close to a pigeon fancier, if you are one, because this is a world about which I absolutely know nothing, and people devote hours, years of their life to pigeons, keeping them in their lofts, and they are remarkable creatures. The fact that they can carry messages, they can come back home, how extraordinary

is that? Yes, this was his point, is that we've maligned them and actually... Give me his number, I could talk to him about pigeons. I think I'd have more of an interest. I wouldn't eat a pigeon. It does crop up on menus in fancy restaurants. Oh yeah, no it does, doesn't it? There's hardly any meat on them, they're absolutely minute. I've eaten puffin. Yeah. In Iceland hardly any meat on them, they're absolutely minute. I've eaten puffin in Iceland. What was that like, Jane? Quite gamey, could have done with

a bit of mustard. The thing is at the time I didn't feel bad about it but now that I've been to the East Coast near where my parents have moved to and seen some puffins, little puffins mating, they're ever so cute and the little ones, pufflings. That's actually what you call a little puffling. It isn't. A puffin, a baby puffin is a puffling. Oh my goodness. I know that. Do you know what? I mean I was missing fee but really you bring a lot to this party. You bring a lot to the podcast party. You're the equivalent of somebody who turns up on the doorstep, add a function, not just with Carver or Cremon or poxy prosecco but with a bottle of the real stuff. That's what you are, Moll Curran. No, I mean it.

And a couple of pigeons. Yes, and some pigeons. But I am interested in pigeons. Let us know if you are too. And I get the point about your date saying that we malign them because the nasty smelly ones that just eat our chips. And he was saying that that's because we overbred them and we sort of, you know, they're not operating as, you know, they are sort of the outcasts of the sort of pigeon world and that actually when we used to use them for messages and look after them and things and military work exactly, they had jobs and pensions, you know, they were in a in a much better state. So anyway, I'm gonna stop talking about pigeons now. It was quite enough the other night to be honest. Our guest in this podcast is my favourite actor at

the moment, James Nelson Joyce. Now you haven't seen this. I watched about 20 minutes of it last night for you. I got home quite late so I could only watch some of it. Right. Yeah, I get the point. Yes, okay. So James Nelson Joyce, seriously, people are now saying this guy perhaps should be James Bond. No, Eve, certainly could be James Bond. His odds have shortened. You know, as you might know, I do like the occasional bet. I am actually thinking I might put some money on it. I just think it would be a fantastic... I mean, the who plays James Bond debate, if you can call it that, is normally one of those things that leaves me completely cold. I couldn't care less. But I do think it would be brilliant to have someone from...

I mean, Daniel Craig's from The Wirral. Yeah. Wouldn't know. No, you probably wouldn't. But James Nelson Joyce is absolutely 100% Scouse. So do you think if he were to play Bond, he would be allowed to keep his strong Scouse accent? Well, he does accents, he can do accents, so I don't think that would be a problem for him. And anyway, why shouldn't he keep it? Good point. Absolutely. I wanted to say that our guest yesterday was this extraordinary author, John Stock,

really enjoyed meeting him. Really fascinating book he'd written called The Sleep Room. And I wondered, as I was doing the interview yesterday, whether we'd hear from someone who actually had experience of it. And we have got close to that, haven't we? It's an incredible email. Yeah, I mean, it really is. And this is from, we don't need to mention the listener's name actually, but she just says, by the way if you missed yesterday just go back and listen to it because it's a really interesting insight into psychiatry. Well not that long ago, I mean this guy, a man called William Sargent was what you might

loosely call a maverick psychiatrist, much much respected though in his day, he was hugely significant. He treated lots and lots of people, he was very keen on ECT. He was keen on lobotomies as well and on giving them. And he treated a lot of quite well-known people or people close to people who are well-known. He was a kind of celebrity psychiatrist. And he put lots of his patients to sleep for very long periods of time.

We're talking months here. So it really is worth having a listen to him because that book, The Sleep Room, is a real chunk of important social and medical history. Anyway, this listener says, I normally listen to off air last thing just to relax as I drift off and then I catch up later. However, last night's interview kept me awake and I found it difficult to sleep afterwards. My mother had poor mental health for most of her adult life and in the 60s and 70s she was under William Sargent at St Thomas' Hospital. She had and hated ECT and then endured both the lobotomy and the deep sleep treatment. None of it worked.

I often think it actually made things worse. For many years I have never heard of anybody else undergoing this treatment or learned anything else about it. Then one day some years back I did hear a programme on Radio 4, and you're right about this by the way, it was called Dr Sargent the Mindbender General. I did have a look to see if it's still on sounds and it isn't, but it definitely did exist, you're quite right that programme happened. I had to pull over into a lay-by then to listen to it because it upset me too much to drive. The programme, as your guest yesterday also did, talked about the sleep treatment and the damage and deaths it caused, although I only recall the programme mentioning deaths

in Australia where a prodigy of sergeants, so called, also carried it out. I was really upset to hear yesterday that five people died at St Thomas's and wonder if my parents knew of any previous deaths when mum underwent this. However, my mother was just desperate to try anything that might help her. I don't know how long she was in the sleep room, I've got a feeling it was about six weeks, and perhaps in the school holidays. I do know that she went in a size 12 and came out a size 18. I know that she found Dr Sargent very arrogant, although she was often kept waiting by him for long periods of time. It just sounds so miserable, I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your

mum, it's just horrendous. There was no talking therapy around at the time, just this catalogue of extreme physical interventions and cocktails of drugs. I think her lobotomy was in the mid-60s, I know I was young. I have a memory of a hospital visit and mum was sitting in bed wearing a blue and white polka dot headscarf covering where her head had been shaved. When we went to St. Thomas's my dad would tell us the doors were magic. If we stood outside and said open sesame the doors would open. I do imagine that automatic doors were magic. If we stood outside and said open sesame, the doors would open. I do imagine that automatic doors were a lot less common in the 60s, I think they probably were actually,

but isn't that a sweet detail that a young child would recall that aspect of it? This is really interesting. In the 70s my mum did have talking therapy and she also managed to stop taking so many drugs. Her mental health improved a little but it really changed for the better when she was in her 90s and had dementia. She agreed to move up to Buxton to be near my sister and me in a lovely assisted living centre. She lived in the present, she'd look across the hills from her apartment fascinated by everything she saw. Just look at the clouds she say, just look at that beautiful tree. She loved watching the sheep in the fields fascinated by them seeming to eat all day long. Thank you so much for that and I appreciate

that dementia can be a terrible thing but clearly in the case of your mum it just brought her a little bit of tranquillity, that joy of being in the present that she'd never had before. I'm just so sorry to hear about the misery she'd gone through. And thank you for taking the time to write and I'm sorry if that interview upset you but, I mean really, your mother should have had compensation for everything that happened. That can't happen to her now but thank you very much for it. I mean, it's just the rogue practices of surgeons and doctors. It's terrifying. Thank you so much.

Onto a happier note in terms of medicine. Thank you so much for your emails about weight loss jabs, which we have been talking about. And I did ask yesterday if anyone knew a bit more about the NHS situation because I've only really come across people who've bought it privately or using it privately and I did ask yesterday if anyone had any insight about how it was working with the NHS to please get in touch and we've had a great email from Jenny who says I have a little insight into getting hold of GLP-1 medication as it's known on the NHS, having shadowed a few specialist obesity clinics last year as part of my job.

She says my understanding is at present GLP-1 medication is provided by specialist endocrinology centres, they're the ones of hormones aren't they, in hospitals with a triaging process to try and manage demand. Patients are asked about the health complications of their obesity, with the most urgent being those who need a life-saving operation, for example cancer or vascular, but can't have a general anaesthetic safety because at their current weight the risk of death would be too high. The idea being therefore that the GLP1s would help them to quickly lose weight to safely have an operation, which makes sense. Each patient referred to the clinic is discussed in a multidisciplinary team meeting with those with other complications of obesity, diabetes, fatty liver disease, etc. stratified into

three or four other levels on the waiting list. This is extraordinary. Jenny says the weights are substantial. In our patch of London, for patients not meeting urgent criteria, the weight from GP referral to being seen at the clinic is around two years with another weight of two years having been seen for access to the medication. So that's four years in total she says. GLP1s are also only issued from the NHS for two years with patients receiving counselling from the clinic alongside the medication on how to make long-term changes that will help them avoid gaining weight once the medication stops. I think the reasons says Jenny for the long waits are multifactorial. Cost of course,

which would be astronomical if everyone who is eligible for GLP-1s was to receive them on the NHS. She says solving obesity would inevitably save costs in the long term but the NHS almost certainly doesn't have the upfront money or man slash woman power or infrastructure she says to staff the services needed to prescribe and safely monitor everyone who could have it at the moment. So it is about money. Of course it is. Yeah I mean and then this is the thing you know there are and this is such a spectrum isn't it of people who want them need them you know should be having them you know the people who could maybe I don't know spend six months losing their weights

in order to have an operation that would be potentially life-saving. And also, I mean, what costs so much cost to the NHS. But they forgot to wait for two years, potentially four years to have them. I mean, is that person, I don't mean to be grim, but is that person going to be there to need the JLP-1 drugs in four years' time? You don't know. There's a chance they won't be. I mean and we've got the technology and we just don't have as she says the infrastructure as well. It's not just about money is it, it's about the infrastructure and I'm going to say something very controversial but we were discussing this on our

desk downstairs in the magazine this week when there's been lots of stories, we do a lot of NHS stories in the magazine and when you talk to young people they don't understand why we consider the NHS so sacrosanct, why we hold on to this idea of the NHS as you know as complete, you know that it would be un-British to think of completely restructuring the NHS and how we fund it, because they don't have the same attachment to it as I think, you know, adult children of boomers like me do, because, you know, my parents were born in 1948 as was the NHS, so I understand it, and I've lived in countries with terrible healthcare systems that are profit

based but when you look at it you just think this isn't working. No, so that was Jane Mulcairn speaking there. I sounded like I need to distance myself. No, I think it's interesting on the program yesterday, the radio program, Times Radio, get the free app, two till four, I was talking to Rachel Ward who's our resident GP, we talked to her every Tuesday afternoon. And we mentioned a story, or she did, about the number of young professionals who are skirting around the NHS, not even going straight for I think that's what prompted our conversation. Yeah, private consultations, because they don't understand the whole waiting game of the NHS where you can't always be seen just as you want to. My youngest daughter

is travelling as some very fortunate young people are able to. She's still travelling. She should be back in, well, I hope she better be back in about a month's time. Seems to have been a little bit of extra travel tagged on to this trip. But anyway, she had a swollen neck or something the other day and took herself off to a clinic in Bali and was seen within 10 minutes. Now we had to pay. Of course, a couple hundred pounds maybe? It was actually, what was it, 47 quid in the interest of transparency. And her father and I shared the cost. Yes, that's how you do divorce kids. And she, it was given the all clear, lovely doctor said, you know, knocked down her throat and said, have you drunk matcha? Because she had

green. I don't understand the matcha. I don't understand matcha at all. I'm not drinking it now. I never wanted to anyway. But that, look, that's a completely, I don't know why I've even told the story because I'm not sure how relevant it is, but it gives you an indication of what's available in places of that nature, but also the cost. The cost is very real and I imagine to plenty of people who live in Bali, dream on. There's no way they could go and get their tonsil seen to whatever it might be. I do feel an attachment to the NHS. I've worked for the NHS and I do feel that on the whole, staff are truly dedicated and brilliant. No, I get it. I wasn't saying I don't feel attached to them. No, I know. But I also

agree with you. I think maybe it's time for the really difficult, perhaps unthinkable conversation about what we do in the future and about how those of us who could afford to chip in should actually be required to do exactly that. But which politician is going to ask me that? Well, I mean, I thought that was sort of part of West Streetings brief is to have difficult conversations. I don't think would he be, I know as a Labour Health Secretary, it might be slightly, well, it might be actually easier for him to raise this than for a Tory health secretary for example. It's not just about access to drugs, I mean the state of hospitals, when I was presenting

breakfast the other weekend we had a story about you know hospitals, the state of hospitals crumbling, you know rats, you know dirty corridors and I will say if you've got an elderly relative who's in hospital, the fears that they're going to get a hospital-born infection if they're in for any period of time are very, very real. I mean, all of us with elderly parents, when they go in, we try to get them out as soon as possible. I totally get you. Because I know so many people who've got terrible diseases in hospital. The other end of the spectrum, we've got to acknowledge the pretty parlous state of

maternity care and services and how many inquiries we've already had into what goes on in our maternity hospitals. So no, it's not perfect, but what the alternative would be and how we'd, well it would be like an insurance system that they have in countries like that. I mean they would have to be wholesale, a whole different way of thinking. What we don't want obviously is a for-profit system. I've lived in a country that has a for-profit healthcare system and as I think I've mentioned several hundred thousand times on air, you know, I had a shoulder operation that would have cost £230,000 if I'd have had to pay for it,

you know, without insurance. So can I ask, when you were living in the States and you had insurance? Well I only got it after I broke my shoulder. But how much was your premium? $800 a month. $800? Yep, that's just the premium. And you're a fit woman of not very old age at all. And the freelance journalist, so you know. That's why I didn't have it for the first 10 years I lived there. I did have a, interestingly when you mentioned your daughter going to

the sort of walking clinic, that's what I used to do. Because if I had tonsillitis, which is the only thing I ever really got, I'd just go to a walking clinic, pay about $150 to see the doctor and get a prescription. And on you go. I mean, it's a lot less than paying $800 a month. It really is. But then if you break your shoulder, you do have to stump up the cash to pay for the insurance. I was very, very fortunate in that when I did it, it was COVID. So it was open enrollment for insurance. And I lived in a state that still had the Affordable Care Act, Obama Care,

so they couldn't deny me access to insurance with a pre-existing condition. I see. I was really lucky. But the cost of your shoulder operation, you didn't have to pay. No, no. So how did you not pay it? Because they backdated my insurance. I found out when I was being prepped for surgery that they'd managed to backdate it yeah my mum finally went to sleep for the first

time all week I'm not surprised oh my god Jane that's horrendous quite stressful right I'm quite stressful there's a wonderful bit of British understatement there hope our overseas listeners enjoyed that I just want to mention this touch note thing. I didn't know about touch note. I just got the app because I think I might be using it. I hope this card makes the wall of glory says Emma, I always send touch note postcards as you can choose your own picks. I've chosen here for you at the top front of the bus and I will always inch forward until I get there. Yes, thank you for that. She's very good. Nice bus she's on as well. Looks a very clear road you've got ahead of you there.

I think I recognize that. Is that, is that, no, is it Chisik? Looks like it could be. I'm a proud owner of your tote and it always joins me on every shop. I've also enclosed Remy our wirehead, Vizsla. Vizsla. Oh, I love a Vizsla.

Lovely be huge, always at the vet, nearly bankrupting me. Well, Mrs. Markeran Sr. would understand that. If anyone has any magic ideas... She just sent me to a vet if I don't know what she means. If anyone has ideas for preventing ear infections, please let me know. She now has a resistant infection on her foot, hence the bucket on her head. I'm giving blood today, says Emma. It's uplifting to see the good in so many people so do donate if you can. Thank you Emma. Look at the, yes lovely, absolutely lovely. Oh the cone of shame. I mentioned a few months ago

that I'd got the call-up to give blood because I've got a common blood group. I can't think why my blood group's so common but anyway they need it. Are you common? I know I'm exotic. Oh god that seems slightly irritating. Anyway, thanks to this reminder Emma, I have read, I've got another appointment lined up for a couple of weeks time, so you've reminded me, put me in my place and made me recognise that it was time to do it again. So how exotic are you? Be positive.

8% of the population. Gosh. And are you pleased? Yeah. Yeah. Very pleased. Again, just the weirdness of American medicine, I wasn't allowed to give blood when I lived there because I'd lived in Britain during the foot and mouth and BSE times. And so obviously we all had, you know, in their opinion, we all just had, you know, BJC, what's it called? CJD. CJD. Yeah. Which was awful, but anyway, I just, I don't think... It's mad, isn't it? Kate writes to say, long-time listener, ThriceNow

emailed her, she would like to just go back to a conversation from a little while ago about the dangers of skiing. She says she's recently returned from the mountains where she tore the same ACL and the same knee that she tore when she skied exactly a year ago. It felt a little bit like lightning striking twice, but she shortened the odds by throwing herself down the mountain. So when we take you skiing, Callum and I were not going to let you do that, Jo. But anyway, she mentions various things, taunton, guide dogs, but I just want to pick up on her paragraph about work experience. Kate says, in my move into the world of journalism at the ripe old age of 27, I took on work experience to broaden my

horizons. While working at a certain London papers features desk. Which paper could that be? I mean there's all those papers in London. I was given a paper plate with some sugar on it and told to make it look like cocaine for a photo shoot. All I had to hand was a glue stick so I used this to grind it as finely as possible before presenting it to my editor. Delighted that my second class honours degree in English had served me so well. Yep, exactly. I've never done anything like that. Are you sure?

I've definitely had to do some Blue Peter. Yeah, absolutely. That is quite interesting. I think we all know the name of that London paper. Interestingly, Kate has also come across John Stock, who was the author and guest on the programme yesterday and podcast yesterday. He was delightful. He was my first proper newspaper editor, never asked me to do anything so menial. Instead, he gave me my first proper break into journalism and I've loved writing ever since. I'm now writing my first book.

So I remember him with much fondness. That's lovely. It's nice to know that our guest who did seem lovely and he did seem lovely, well, he's actually lovely. Kate also says, talking of words not often used, E.g. Kempt, she says she unwittingly used the word Vents at the dinner table the other night and her family was outraged, insisting it was not correct. She was happy to prove them wrong. Could you pass the salt to your

brother and Vents on to me? There we are. Let's try and all up our game over the coming Easter break. I'm just going to learn some new words and just toss them in. Let's try and all up our game over the coming Easter break. I'm going to learn some new words and just toss them in. Yeah. Helen says, North Berwick. North Berwick! We can now formally announce that we're going, Fiona, going to North Berwick. I saw this on the social media. To the Fringe by the Sea, which is going to be lovely.

And Helen is going to be pleased to know this. She says, I've been going to email several times over the years. At one point I was going to ask when you might come up north for one of your shows. I thought that when one of Jane's offspring was up here at uni, that would be ideal, but I understand she's now finished. Anyway, recently I've heard that North Berwick has been mentioned several times and I've searched the Fringe by the Sea website, but I can't find you. Well Helen, the great news for you is that you should be able to find us now.

We are definitely going to that festival. Our guest is the brilliant Judy Murray, tennis coach supreme, now author, and she's going to be talking to us in August in North Berwick. And it's a part of Scotland I've never been to before and I'm honestly so looking forward to it. So Helen, what's the matter? No, is it East Coast, Barak? Is it East Coast? Yes. It's East Coast. East Coast, lovely. I thought there was someone at the door.

Oh no, I was just, I was pointing upwards to Scotland. Okay. Right. Moving quickly on, Eileen writes in to say, my late husband, this is in reference to your discussion about doing jobs in people's homes. Yes. Oh yes. My late husband had a central heating business which involved him going into customers' homes to quote, once he had to measure up a bedroom, someone fussed asleep in bed. Not sure if he got the job, but he always had amusing stories about the good old general public.

I mean, how could you sleep through somebody, a stranger measuring up in your bedroom? He's really very tired. It's Britain. I mean, you'd just be expected to get on with it. Evelyn says, long-time listener and several-time emailer, I listened with interest to your interview with Dimblebee. This is Fee in conversation with David Dimblebee. I literally held my breath when he hesitated over the question, what do you think of Trump? Thinking, surely he's not going to support him. What a relief when he said he thought he was a lunatic.

My relief waned considerably over his stance on the reinstated statue of a self-confessed pedophile. Yeah, I sort of share your discomfort there. I was recently involved in a very unpleasant situation. I won't bore you with the whole story. It's parochial, she says. It involved a double book. They're our favorite stories. Yeah, I was going to say, story, it's parochial she says. It involved a double booking at a hall which my craft group had been using for over 20

years, where mostly but not all in our 70s and 80s, and even if I say so myself, they are the most caring and kindest group of people I've ever met. The double booking could have been a disaster but we sorted it amicably and nobody died. Imagine my horror when I was alerted to a Facebook post by one of the young moms we were sharing the space with saying we were rude to the organizers parents and children. One of our members unfortunately responded in a like-minded fashion to a very rude parent who told her to move her car or her husband would bump it out of the way. Various comments ensued including old people forget they

were once parents, old people react badly to change when we'd been the ones making all the concessions. I was so upset that our reputation was so carelessly damaged on the basis of our age. I was very surprised that you seemed to be, albeit excusing rather than accusing him, on the basis of age." Okay, well, I hope we haven't caused offense, Evelyn, and I'm sorry that you felt got out by the other users of that haul, but I do really need to emphasise that the more parochial the rumpus, the more interested we are. But there's no such thing as an anecdote or a story that would be too parochial. I know. Susan says, dear Jane Jane and especially Fee, briefly, being a legend,

looking at you David, doesn't mean you don't need to be polite. Best wishes Sue. Thanks Sue, we can pass that on. And before we get to our guest, leading thespian James Nelson-Joyce, I just wanted to say Claire, happy birthday. Your friend Emma in New Zealand has contacted us. I fear I might have missed the actual day, well I have, because it was last Saturday the 12th. Over the last few years she and I have been dealing with the same debilitating chronic illness, says Emma, which often makes it difficult to leave the house or cook a meal and which few doctors understand. She listens to your podcast, it helps quell the isolation so many of us with little understood illnesses experience and is often taking off

her headphones to tell me something one of you has said. I love her very much, she's been an incredible stalwart helping me adjust as my life has changed so dramatically all the while dealing with her own health as well. So Emma in New Zealand, thank you for that and our very best wishes and a belated happy birthday to your great friend Claire. Happy birthday Claire. Now let's bring in James Nelson Joyce. Now Fee isn't here and I think in some ways it's just as well and I've got a feeling that she will deliberately not listen to this because it's me having a scouse off although when I tell James Nelson Joyce that I grew up in Liverpool he's not remotely interested and why would he be? I just wanted to establish my northern credentials.

So here he is, man of the moment, James Nelson Joyce. They're calling it the show that is, The Scouse Sopranos, is actually called This City Is Ours. It's a BBC crime drama that somehow manages to be stylish, quite funny at times, pretty violent and genuinely gripping. There is some formation dancing, as I've just mentioned, and a lovely, lovely soundtrack. Now, James Nelson-Joyce is our guest this afternoon. He's the actor who plays Michael Kavanaugh, a member of a drug gang led by his old friend and mentor,

Ronnie Phelan, played by Sean Bean. Now, Ronnie is thinking about retirement, and Michael's his natural heir, really, but that's bad news for Ronnie's rather lummoxy son Jamie. Now James Nelson Joyce has been on big TV shows before A Thousand Blows and Time and then there was the episode of Black Mirror he's done as well recently but this show is all about him. He is the man of the moment his odds of playing James Bond have shortened to six to one, apparently. So could we soon be shaken and stirred by a copper-bottomed Scouser? I asked him to take us back to how he, young James, first got into acting.

Cut a long story short, I fancied my English teacher. And to get her attention in class, I used to just put accents on, to joke about, to get her attention. And then I never used to do, you know know my homework or coursework or nothing like that and then she just said to me one day she said oh would you be interested in doing this speaking and listening exam you learn a monologue and you go into a room and we only choose four people from a year and I was like yes I don't mean to get to spend more time at Miss Griffiths than you and And it was just luck, it was just luck.

And then it was basically the story was, it was about a young lad, his stuff was lost for the first time, he loses his dog and in the monologue he talks about he comes home from school and how the dog's ball and bowl and bed and lead is still in the house. And I know I finished the monologue and the lady who was examining me she was like you know, slightly older lady, I was only about 15 and she was crying I was like, oh what's up love, come here, you okay? And she was like my dog died 18 months ago and I've still got the dog's bowl and his bed and all that here it was just, you know, it was one of those very lucky moments that the person who was examining me

you know, related to the script and then it kind of all just started from there. It wasn't lucky for the dog, was it? The poor dead dog. No, it wasn't lucky for the dog, unfortunately. But that's what I mean. It's, you know, those sliding door moments and I didn't know I ever wanted to be an actor. And it wasn't until, you know, this lady had marked me and gave me a very good mark there. I thought, oh, okay. But I didn't really believe I could be a very good mark there. I thought oh, okay But I didn't really believe I could be an actor really and truly until I was 21 20 21 and what happened then? Not and I was just you know it was I went through a community college after school and then

You know I was a young 16 year old lad who was just you know enjoying his life And then I kind of slowly but surely realized you know this is a career that people do for a living it's not just a hobby I was a bit I wouldn't say raw but I was a bit of a risk because I'd never seen a play never read a book you know that world wasn't really around me growing up. Okay so you didn't I mean I grew up in Liverpool and I remember going to the Everyman the Liverpool Liverpool playhouse, you could go really cheap to the Everyman, I think it was a quid a ticket at one point. Did that never appeal to you? I just didn't know about it. It's not that it didn't appeal to me, I genuinely didn't

know anything about it. I was like, I was, you know, from the ages of like 11 to 16, I wanted to be a footballer, was never good enough. And then like from 16 to what? 20, I was more interested in having a good time with my mates and you know, things like that. Then when I moved down to London, I was like, right, I'm going to give this a good go. And I started, you know, to pay for the cheap seats in the National Theatre. And those incentives were good schemes because you could get, you know, standing tickets for like a pound and things like that. Now, of course, people are saying that you that you're the kind of classic hard man type and I should say that in This City Is Ours you've got a very sensitive side, I mean don't get me wrong you've got a violent streak or your character has but there's also the sensitivity too because with your partner Diana you're struggling with fertility issues.

That to me was a really unexpected part of that show. I just wasn't, I didn't see that. I didn't think that was what I was gonna see. Yeah, I mean Stephen's writing is brilliant isn't it because although you're rooting for Michael and Diana to work out and you know you want this relationship to work and it to be successful but on the same side is is Michael is doing some pretty nasty gruesome stuff and especially have you seen it all yes yeah so without giving away any spoilers I mean someone's snatching a brand new baby out of a house you know you would go scum of the earth and you turn your nose up at it but for some reason the way Stephen's written it

people are rooting for Michael in that moment because he's got Diana and Diana's pregnant and it's kind of like that whole thing of an eye for an eye isn't it but that's where Stephen's writing is beautiful is it's that Walter White-esque thing where he grips you on boards at the beginning and you understand why he's doing things. Is there going to be another series? I hope so. I really hope so. But that's all down to, you know, viewing figures now on the BBC and, you know, the politics of that comes with dramas, but I think so. I think there should be. Well, I know that you are a very proud Scouser and the city of Liverpool

actually has never looked better than it does in this city as ours. There's loads of scenes shot in that restaurant, The Panoramic, which is right, I mean it's, describe it to people who don't know it because it's a nice place but amazing views. Oh on a clear day you can see all the way across to Wales and it's just a gorgeous beautiful restaurant, I don't know how many floors up it is. It's a it's a it's the scene where we shot with um Ricardo, you know with me diana gulf at dinner with him in the evening. Yeah, we should say he's he's one of the amigos I mean, he's a very nasty man himself. He's a big drug dealer

And he's gorgeous in real life. That's the thing these people who you work with Like mike noble as well at the end. Mike Noble is the nicest guy you'll ever meet. So the funny thing with Mike Noble is we went through school together, he was in the year above me, so we went through infant school, junior school. Right, he plays your oppo Banksy, yeah, scum. Yeah, and he is, and we never spoke, we never once said a word to each other at school, and he is, honestly, I've made a friend for life in Mike It was a gift of a job. It really was and I know a lot of actors say that about

productions, but I don't mince me words and Everyone was fantastic. Well, tell us who have you worked with who's a right pain in the neck then? No, I'm not a snitch Okay, never mind. I thought it was worth a try So you and Mike are Scousers So you and Mike are Scousers but what really impressed me is that there are other people in the show who are not and they really worked hard on the accent. Did you help them? Yeah, like, I mean certainly me and Hannah had a lot of time together so she plays Diana so there'll be times where she'd be saying I don't know, I'm not too sure on this word or the male accent is a lot different to like, as a lad I'd say book, whereas my sisters would say booke. So there's little things, so

I'd get my sisters sometimes to send the voice notes over so the hannuk could listen to it and Julie Graham's accent was amazing. I think a lot of people, you know, have said to me, I can't believe she's Scottish, it's nice little things like that and you have to pass that message on. Yeah, no, Julie Graham is amazing and she plays the kind of matriarch of the Fielan crime family. She's also a woman who lives in a lovely house with the most fantastic garden furniture

and also really good weather. I mean is that really the Wirral? Yeah, honestly it's the Wirral, I promise you. Yeah, well I've been to the Wirral. I just don't remember it being like that, James, if I'm honest. We was very lucky. We was very lucky with some of the days we filmed on. Also, I just want to draw attention to the character of Bonehead. Now, a lot of people picked up on the idea that he really does look a bit like one of Harry Enfield's Scousers.

Do you acknowledge that? I didn't even think of that but Bobby Schofield, he's been a mate of mine for donkey's years. His dad, do you know Drew Schofield? Andrew Schofield, yeah, yeah. He's in Blood Brothers. Yeah, that's Bobby's dad. Oh is it? Oh good, okay. Yeah, that's Bobby's dad. So, yeah, but I mean Bobby's a brilliant actor and there was a thing in Liverpool where a lot of the lads, we called them Ketw and so Bobby was like I'm going with the ketwig and he looked

boss with it because his job after that he cut it all off and I was like oh Bobby why have you cut it off it looked it did look boss I liked it and see if I grow my hair it goes like that I've got a big curly head as well yeah well I had a big curly head back in the day but it seems to have slightly deserted me in later life what's next for you then in the very near future? I don't know at the minute. Obviously we're waiting to hear on season two of This City Is Ours and we're waiting to hear if Thousand Blows is gonna go again because I'm tied in to you know doing the series three of Thousand Blows and series two of This City Is O, so we're just waiting to hear what happens with them.

I've had a couple of scripts put me away and that, but we've just got to wait and hear what happens with those other jobs to be honest. Would you like to just move away completely from any link to the world of crime? Not really. I think I get asked this question a lot and there's a fascination in people where... Because look, me as James I am so bored. Like, I'm so... If you describe me as a taster to vanilla, like... I just like coming home, having my tea, watching the footy or watching the boxing. So that whole world to me is interesting. And as an actor, your job is to, you know, really delve in and, you know, why someone does something.

And I'm fascinated by it. So as long as the script's good, of course, I'd love to play, you know, the romantic leading man, but the script's got to be good. I don't want to be, you know, a two-dimensional character in anything I play. So whether that is stepping away from the world of crime to go and do something which is well-written, want to be you know a two-dimensional character in anything I play so whether that is stepping away from the world of crime to go and do something which is

well written and yeah of course do I want to go and show my more sensitive side or because I am a very vulnerable sensitive kind of person in real life but acting is about portraying what we're in front of here. And if the script's really good, then I'd be a fool to say no to it. And that whole idea of, you know, typecasting and all that, we'll step away from that idea and let's be more brave and just say, well, that script's really good. My job as the actor is to portray, you know, either a drug dealer or whatever the part may be. So I'm not, I'm not too fussed about this whole idea of typecasting

because if you hold Michael Kavanaugh up to say James Yeats in Little Boy Blue, okay, on paper you'd look at it and go, oh it's about, you know, criminality. Two totally different people, you know, two totally, totally different people and that's where we... there's a bit of snobbery and a bit of elitism that comes with acting and they go, oh, crime, this or romantic, well, you know, is the script good? Is the piece good? Well, then appreciate it because that's what it's about at the end of the day. You would never go to Adele Woodshed and go, oh, you're only singing love songs. Well, actually, she, I mean, yeah, you're right singing love songs. Well actually she I mean yeah I you're

right we wouldn't. Heartbreak songs and that's that's and there's a thing that comes with acting and I've only ever heard it said to Hugh Grant where they've said to Hugh Grant oh you know I love Hugh Grant by the way I mean Hugh Grant I've got the biggest man crush on he got me through lockdown like I would watch every Hugh Grant film go and that's what got me through. And they said something to him about playing the romantic lead, and I go, well, that's a bit harsh, because he's very, very good at it,

and it's kind of like, it's kind of a poke without it being a poke, do you know what I mean? So, I mean, what about Macbeth? What about him? Well, could you, would you? Yeah, of course, I'd kill it. I would love to have the honour of playing Macbeth, of course I would. One of the best scripting parts ever. Yeah, I mean you did say that if the script was good, and it is widely acknowledged

that the script is good there. James Bond, now you know that the odds on you doing James Bond have really shortened. Anything to say about that? Well, I'd love to do it. And I'd say that, for starters, I think, you know, anyone being linked to playing James Bond, they jump at the chance. And I would never have thought in a million years that I'd be linked to playing James Bond. I'm not, you know.

I don't look like the other lads who were all up for it. They're all really handsome looking men, and, you know, from a different kind of background. But yeah, I would love it. Look, I'm just really honoured that anyone would even think I could do it. Because it's a bit of a pinch yourself thing when I hear about know, you can't say any more than that. No, no. It's one of the greatest parts ever written, isn't it? James Bond, he's curly, suave, he's, you know, and there's so many different layers that you can play with and then stepping into

someone's like Daniel Craig shoes would be amazing. Well, he's from the Wirral, isn't he? So it's not so far away. Yeah, he's from the Wirral. Have you got a cool and suave accent that you could just give us a hint of? And your English teacher, is she still with us? Yeah she's still at the school. I got a really lovely email off her. I should really go into the school and say hello but being mad, I should, do you know what, I'd love to go in and say, cos where the school is, it's quite an underprivileged background,

and to say to the kids, you can achieve anything if you're just determined and focused and work hard, because there are actors out there who are ten times better than me, and you can achieve anything if you put your mind to it and really work hard. And it's fantastic actually testament to her that she's still working in that school. I mean yes she was an amazing teacher she really really was. She had an amazing way for a job and I understand it's a tiresome job it's a nine to five and you've got kids in there who most of the time they don't want to be there but she had a way of expressing and teaching and learning that was different and fresh and that's why we all enjoyed it.

No she sounds brilliant and just a quick word on Liverpool they should win the title in a couple of weeks. Are you confident? Oh yeah, it's coming home in the... I think we can all agree on that. Won't be long now before Mr Slott lifts his first Premier League trophy. Are you excited for that, Jay? I can't wait. You couldn't go less with it. I can't wait.

I did see that Fabregas has renewed his contract. Who? No, I've got that one wrong. I don't know what you're on about. Right, OK. I like it when people who don't know about sport indulge in a bit of sports chat. Do you play croquet?

No. OK. Right, so... Sheffield,! Okay. Right so more pigeon fanciers. Yes. We need you. We need you for tomorrow please because I would like to hear what you've got to say. I would just really like to know if I was being if he was pulling my leg terribly about the war and pigeons being essentially our feathered spies. Okay. Is it niche? Nothing's ever too niche for this podcast. It's Jane and Fee at Times. Radio. Thank you. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day,

Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music