Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The more we talk the less we know (with Peter Hanington)

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

Ahoy there! Jane and Fi discuss tampon multipacks (what will they think of next!), the long forgotten glamourous appeal of Castoral GTX and why on earth Jane has been allowed to steer a ship on the high seas. Plus, author Peter Hanington joins us to talk about his latest book 'The Darkest Tide'. Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri.  You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndF Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Right, well, let's start properly. So Jane has just admitted that she has once, it's not the right word to say driven a ship, but we were having a conversation. I don't know how we got onto this, but you've been in charge of a customs vessel. Now, I was allowed to steer a very small boat back into a Cornish port whilst on an outside broadcast once.

I did it rather well. That was a really good day, that. Right. In the Navy. Jason had dropped all of her emails. Oh my word. Was there somebody hovering behind you? Oh, there were loads of people in uniform.

Men in uniform, I'm going to say. It was back in the glory days, you know. Can you remember what the story was? Well, it was just a week of, let's go, out and about in Cornwall. Are you getting to the parts of the radio stations didn't reach? Yes, that was the whole idea of it. Obviously, it was December, which is the ideal place to visit Cornwall. I don't think have I been back there since I don't know whether I have actually

perhaps one oh yeah perhaps once I went to the it's a very well-to-do resort of rock it is well to do have you been to rock I think we've passed through rock I've never really done the Cornwall thing either because obviously when we went on holiday we'd go to Scotland so the idea that you'd go just as far in the opposite direction just seemed madness so we went once

we took the kids when they were tiny we had one glorious, beautiful day of sunshine where we thought, this is why. This is why people holiday and call. And then it just rained for the whole sodding week. And we were in a very damp kind of B&B. And I don't, yeah.

Good times. It was challenging. It was really challenging. It does stay with you and it does colour your impressions of a place, doesn't it if you just have a dire week of weather? And I remember that the absolute pinnacle of our enjoyment was when we got some fish and chips.

We were miles away from other people, actually. So the fish and chips were a little bit soggy by the time we got them home. We really genuinely didn't care. We managed to get the kids off to sleep and we settled down on a slightly mouldy sofa and at some damp fish and chips and we watched Brokeback Mountain and we both decided it was a great, great night.

Well, I tell you what, I don't know what. Looking back on it, we're just determined to make the best of it. Married life in the roar. Yes, we've had a great time. This is wonderful. Let's go camping with Heath Ledger. I can't remember who the other chat was. No, neither can I.

Oh gosh, it's too much. Was it Mike from Neighbours? I don't think so, Phoey. A very important film, we should say. We're not in any way. No, it was a great, great film. You know Mike from Neighbors. He's very famous actor.

Oh, Guy Pearce. Yes, Guy Pearce. Was it Guy Pearce? I don't think. it was Guy Pearce. No. So, sorry? Jake Gillenhall.

Jake Gillenhall, isn't it? Jake G. Jake G. Let's say it again like we do in radio studios. Jake Gillenhall. Jake. Gillenhall. Giving you all the options.

Jockey, Gillen Halley. Yes, okay, okay. Now you'll have noticed that wasn't Eve. She's poorly today, so she won't be listening, but do get well soon. That was Rosie, the executive producer. She did that without looking and up. That's very good. Now, listen, I went down the polling station to

and there was trouble in the queue. Because the lady in front, that we have local elections across parts of the UK today, not Northern Ireland. So I'm not going to be able to do the whole podcast Eve with your hair sticking out the top of your headphones like it at the moment.

Is it a mini-Mohican? It's just, it's just... I can't help it. It was looking like a hook, like we get hanging off the door. People have been tempted. There's been a huge amount of publicity about this, but the woman in front of me,

my youngest daughter, in the queue to vote, she was adamant that she didn't need photo ID now how much publicity have they given it is relatively new isn't it but you needed photo ID at the general election a couple of years ago so come on people don't go to the polling station and then just give the people working at the place

a bit of a hard time about it it's so not their fault her attitude wasn't very good and I'm sorry to say she was a woman should we say not unlike myself about my age and just behaving quite an

entitled way, don't. She won't have been allowed the vote. You know what? I think it should be. I wonder increasingly whether women at all should be allowed the vote. If you can't control your manners at the bowling station, then really, what are you turning up for? Well, we are very temperamental. I'm not sure.

Maybe she was having her period. I don't think so. She was about 75. Yes, miracles do occur. We salute. But Emily and all of the sisterhood who've made it possible for us to vote. Nancy and I had a lovely time.

It's very quiet though. Oh, was it? At our polling station. No, there was, you just breeze in and breeze out. I was the only person in there. So I hope things live lead up. I think we were there about 8.30 this morning. Nancy loves a polling station.

Well, there was a greyhound at our polling station. Yeah, people just... Dogs at polling stations is a big thing on the Instagram. I'm not on Instagram at the moment, so I'm afraid I can't post a little picture. But maybe we'll get back on it. Are you on it at the moment? No.

What are your reasons for not being on it at the moment? I just found some of it a bit creepy. It was around the time that my mum was in hospital and I started getting a lot of content pumped at me on Instagram that was clearly aimed at the circumstances in which I'd found myself. And some of it was, I just thought, you're listening to me, you're hearing my conversations, sod off. So I deleted it.

Okay. That may well have been your location as well, because people have said that before, that if you've got a location, whatever it is, you know, that you've opened on quite a few apps, or you just don't even realise you haven't clicked the right cookie, it'll know that you're spending a lot of time in hospital. So, you know, it'll start bunging you stuff like that.

But I'm with you on that. Just too much. Just, you know, get out of my life, was what I thought. It does mean I often don't know when my friends are on holiday. You can cope with that, though, can be? Well, I don't hear from people, and I think what's happened, don't they like me anymore? And then it turns out they're in the Maldives.

Okay. And everyone else has been enjoying them. photos. And just to say that the Jane and Fee Instagram page is alive and well. Thank you, Executive Producer. That's why you were the executive producer, isn't it? Yeah, so we're in slightly... Are we on thin eyes? Let's move on.

No, I think that's actually fine. But just on the subject of adverts, because I know we've talked about this before, and we love it when people tell us what adverts, they are sent on the basis of listening to this podcast. So the little right-hand side thing on YouTube is also quite entertaining in terms of algorithms. But I was thinking the other day that when you and I watch TV as kids,

the ads, they were definitely more creative than they are now. So in a way, you look forward to the ads because some of the strapped lines were so good, sometimes they were so funny, they were beautifully crafted. But also, there was something joyous, and don't laugh at me for saying this, about, you know, being an 11-year-old being advertised Castrol GTX.

It just... A world of adventure? Yes. Jane, because it wasn't just your world. So you got to see all of these other things that were out in the world that genuinely, you know, I'm not drawn to the world of engine oil, but I do remember thinking all of those things, they called to me of an adult place that I would one day get to

where I'd need to know that Castral GTX. Do you remember it, the ad? Yes, I think I do. That beautiful pouring liquid gold. It did look like something you might want to put on, well, we didn't have olive oil to eat. with in those days. Oh, God, you've made a leak now. But I was just thinking for it trickling the oil

onto some beautiful big red tomatoes. Yeah. A few bit of basil. Yeah, you're right. You shouldn't do that with Castle GTX. No, don't do that. But it was just great to feel that we were all part of something bigger than just our own little narrow view. The advert for denim aftershade. Well, with the hand disappearing down there.

The man who doesn't have to try too hard. Yeah, down the front. The man who doesn't have to try too hard. Too hard. Yeah, you've got to be a little. little bit careful with that emphasis. I'm not sure they were. But anyway, yes, you're right. I hadn't thought about that before because we weren't in echo chambers in marketing terms. We got everything. We saw really, I don't know, titillating hints of the adult world that lay before us.

Yeah, and it was good for us. Fantastic. Did you know that they started selling tampons in variety packs now, which is really useful because sometimes you just got to hand it to people that they've come up with the right idea. You used to have to have the, you know, megal, you know, big, super chunk, colossal. All the way down to Minnie. God help you. All of this. To be honest, the mini's only good for a nose, please.

And even then, some of us have got wider nostril. No, all these different sizes. But now you can get a variety pack with, we'll see you through the event. That is, God, that's clever, isn't it? Why hasn't that been around before? What's the matter, Rosie? The same with pads?

Have you got a large nostril yourself? No. They have, they have been around. They were around when I started my own period. Good Lord. Okay, well maybe I've only just come across them in our bathroom. Very popular brand beginning with tea. Oh, right, them, yes.

Right. Well, that's good. That is very good. Which brand is that? I've got now so distant. Oh, Tampax. Yeah. Tampax whisper it because men must never know.

They mustn't know about it. Let's bring in a man. And it's Louis, who's written a beautiful email about brooches. I just love this. Obviously brooches we've been talking about for a while. But Louis says, am I too late to throw in some thoughts? No. I've loved a brooch since I was a nipper. Is he a homo, I hear you ponder, writes Louis. Okay, so he's writing this. I wouldn't say that word.

Louis has, he can. Starting with a silver Eiffel Tower cameo that my mum would regularly wear, and just listen to this v. She would wear it with a scarlet bellhop jacket, paired with Cuban heel boots, slacks, and a white ruffle front shirt. Wow. Faulty towers meets new romance. says, oh, the early 90s and its clashing of trends, gloriously hideous, hideously glorious. He goes on to say, from both a sartorial and gender perspective, I've never understood why broaches have and remain, at least in the minds of the average person, very much a women's jewellery item. It makes no sense to me when conjuring images of camp-looking medals and other adornments on so-called masculine military and municipal attire.

That's true, isn't it? I mean, what's a medal if it's not a brohers? by the way I am in no way and nor is our contributor demeaning the heroics and the sheer guts of people who've won medals that's not what we're saying I hope more men realise the joy of a brooch and not just us queers who let's be honest

are always ahead of the game when it comes to experimentation Louis you're right on many counts there I think sartorially the gay gentleman is usually a little better well he's ahead I mean Louis's right they're just a little but up front with their costume doings and with their choices for you but wouldn't it be fair to say

as well that back in the day uh the the style for men was far more kind of broochified so you know brommel yes they would all have been wearing probably more jewelry than the ladies in their life and of course some of them will have been homosexual but by no means all no i'm guessing Where to go with that, Jane. But yes, it's a very good point to make. Does a tie-pin make-up for it? Do men have exciting typ-ins? And what about, I mean, the cuff link?

Well, it's funny, you should say that. Where do you stand on the cuff link fee? I've always wanted to ask about. So there was a strange noise in my washing machine the other day, which I couldn't work out what it was until I realised that my son had put a shirt in the wash that had cufflinks still attached to it. Because you were cufflings?

We've been a cuffling free household for many years. Have you? Yes. Ever since the affidavit. So I was very surprised to see a pair of cufflings and it made me slightly nostalgic because one of my memories of my dad is him, you know, he had a great big pot of cufflinks on his dressing table.

And he would sometimes need a hand getting them put on. Yeah. So when I was a tiny girl, I'd help him get his cufflinks in. I think they're beautiful things. And if I was a man, I would want to wear a shirt, not to wear a tie, because that must be so constricting and horrible around your neck. But to wear the cufflinks, I think they're beautiful things.

And you can say a lot with a cufflink, can you? In the same way that we could say a lot with a brooch. Yes. So, I mean, I think we've hit on it. I think actually cufflinks are the acceptable male brooch, maybe. And why can't women wear cufflings? I think they can. I think they can.

But why did men's shirts not have buttons on the cuffs? Why did they require a coffin? I feel a Friday guest coming on. I don't know. Honestly, the more we talk, the more we find, there are so many areas we've never dreamt of. The more we talk, the less we know. Sadly, that is also true.

It is. But we are investigating, getting a jewellery expert on to talk about brooches. Yes. So we'll pop it all into the same mix, That person would know about cufflinks too. Because we've had some lovely emails about Susie Nightingale, who's our perfume guest of last week. She was very popular, wasn't she?

She was. rightly so. So shall we talk about driving anxiety? Yeah. O-M-G. So I didn't realize that it's a properly recognised symptom of the menopause. Did you know that in your 238 years' experience on women's hat? Did you cover this?

We didn't, and we should have done. Right, that's weird, isn't it? We talked about the way, we had a very popular item I remember it really got a lot of a response about how you tell your parents to give up driving, but we didn't ever tackle how,

as a woman, in your 50s and 60s, and maybe just before, it just becomes a colossal undertaking that you are in danger of overthinking. Yeah, we should have done. So we've got so, so many emails and apologies if we don't get to your one, but lots of people saying what Hillary says,

OMG, ISAT, bolt up, right, in bed for the third time this week. I'm listening to a conversation about women in their late 40s, early 50s, suddenly consumed by fear at the thought of driving on the motorway. I was 50 last summer, suddenly and without any warning in January 2024. I found myself in the middle of a panic attack on the M5. My regular commute would involve just three junctions on the motorway if the traffic was clear just 12 minutes. But now I take the train every single time and I've got my sat-nav permanently set to avoid. motorways. Hillary, so have I. Have you? Yeah, I set it there about two years ago when I just stopped being able to drive to see my mum on the M40 and Hillary is with me on a reason for that too. I can cope with

dual carriageways but just hate, hate, hate motorways, the speed and the constant moving from lane to lane. The irrational fear completely takes over and I have to stop. The idea of the being no hard shoulder, the so-called smart motorway and that's what did it for. for me. I just can't bear it, Jane. I can't bear it. And Hillary says it makes it impossible for me to even consider certain journeys. I've always loved driving and have spent my adult life traveling the length and breadth of the motorway network. Nothing happened to trigger this. I just simply can't do it. And because I'm scared of how it makes me feel and the risk I may pose to others, your point as well, I've stopped. There is an increasing awareness, thank goodness, that this can be attributed to

menopausal and hormonal changes. Please, please continue to discuss this. It is life-changing, but there do appear to be treatments that can help. Okay, and this is from Karen who says, I live in a fairly remote part of the country. Public transport isn't always an option, and I've always enjoyed a long drive, especially with my favourite podcast for company. Your chat, though, about not driving in a time of emotional crisis reminded me of one long drive back in the Christmas of 2022. I got the call. My mom was in her last, days in a hospital in Yorkshire. I got a flight to Manchester and then hired a car to be with her. But coming home was a different story. Winter weather, Christmas travel chaos, met my return

flight was cancelled. So with no chance of a flight before Christmas, I decided to hire a car and drive myself and three other women, all similarly stranded, the eight hours back to deepest Cornwall. Well, by the time we'd passed Birmingham, we'd bonded as travel companions and we were singing carols and laughing. To this day I refer to them as my Christmas angels. Without them, I would have had to make that grief-filled journey alone. Instead, it whizzed by. And as we crossed into Cornwall, we all cheered with a real sense of coming home. We all went our separate ways in Yuki, but I would always believe they were sent from on high to make sure I got home safe and sound. That's a positive story about driving in a time of crisis. But I think there have been many more

from people who just say, actually women, it is women, who just say, I got to a time in my life and I realised this whole driving thing was too much. It was too much responsibility. I felt that responsibility for the safety of others, which I just didn't feel able to cope with anymore. But the weird thing about this, Jane, is it's completely not backed up by fact.

So that isn't an evidence-based decision. So it is something within us. We're making a choice based on a feeling, not on fact, because we remain the safest group of drivers. The middle-aged women are the safest group of drivers, you know, across the world. So it is wrong for us to become scared at something that actually we're rather good at. We're pretty good at, or at least competent at. Rebecca has sent a fantastic email as well to give a sense of the type of thoughts,

and I'm sorry to miss out the first part, only doing that for time reasons, Rebecca, to give a sense of the type of thoughts I get when I drive in case it helps anybody else feel less mad. What if my eyes don't focus? What if I have a panic attack and lose control of the car? Only one tiny move of the steering wheel would be catastrophic. What if I do that? These thoughts can take hold and feel really scary.

And Rebecca goes on to say, I've since learned that menopausal or peri-menopausal driving anxiety is a real thing. I've got friends of a similar age who've really restricted their driving. I don't know the science. but it is to do with the hormone changes. Dr. Amir Khan has spoken about this on TV and on his Instagram.

So search that. There's a very good little film he's done about it. So one possibility for women who might be in perimenopause or menopause would be to explore this further as the solutions could lie with your GP. Now, Rebecca hasn't done that yet, but she has set out some practical things that have helped her. And these are fantastic.

Are you ready? I am. challenging myself to keep driving, building this up and having some parameters, i.e. avoiding most ways at night. Listening to the favourite music of my youth when driving, especially my guilty pleasures. It sounds daft, but this one is probably the most effective and I think has some science behind it. So if I played the best of Boyzone, actually no, that's not quite my adolescence.

Rosie's giving me a rather unpleasant look there, let's be honest. Abba's Golden hits That would be more... I would recover my confidence. Yeah. So maybe it was. I'm going to have to try that. I'm going to blare out some blow monkeys.

Now there was one great song by the blow monkeys. What was it? Oh, God. I can hear it now. I can hear Dr Robert. Do do that one. Yeah. It's a good song.

Could we look that up, please, Rosie? It's a strong song. You could come out of the news on commercial radio with that. Yes, and it does, the opening is a slight kind of fan fairy type thing, isn't it? Oh my God, what is it called? Digging your scene. Digging, it is called digging your scene.

Digging your scene, got there in the air. Good tune, everybody, look it up. Synapses are not what they used to be. Here we go. Listening to a comforting podcast. Yeah, I can't think of anything. Giving a name to the unhelpful voice in my head and telling it to gently bugger off.

I love this one, i.e., thank you, Martine. I'm a capable driver, and you can go now. focusing on the sensations of the breath and having breaks on long journeys so I can mentally chunk it up and think only 30 minutes of having to keep it together and then you can have a burger. Absolutely brilliant Rebecca. And you know, both your email and Hillary's email, when I read them, honestly, I almost had tears in my eyes because you've both put into words

exactly how I felt for the last couple of years and thought it was just me being a bit of a hopeless case these days. So let's carry on talking about it and maybe we could invest. the possibility of getting Dr. Amir Khan on to give us some top tips and explanations. When you understand what it is, I'm pretty sure that that becomes helpful in you rebuilding your confidence. But isn't this just another area where women are suffering from a lack of confidence and lots of men, not all, suffer from real overconfidence in terms of their driving? Because I think most men would rate themselves as, quote, a good driver.

Well, there's no evidence necessarily to back that up and you often look at their car and there are quite a few dents on some gentleman's vehicles and you think, well, are you? What have you just been driven into by a lot of silly women? I suppose that I'm not joining in this. I want to just drive down the motorway going, you're shit, you're rubbish, you're rubbish.

That wasn't on Rebecca's list, but it might be helpful. I don't know. Final one on driving from Fiona. I came to it a little later at the age of passing my test first time after just 10 lessons. I lived in West London at the time and only wanted to use a car just to get away at the weekend. I had a motorway lesson.

Driving was beneficial, but I didn't really enjoy it. Anyway, fast forward 12 years, and having met somebody, I moved from London to a village in rural Derbyshire. He became my husband, did almost all the driving, and I sold my own car within a year of moving. Another decade went by, my husband was diagnosed with blood cancer and five years of treatment, appointments and a different lifestyle ensued.

Medical situations forced me to drive him to hospital, sometimes under emergency conditions. And that's where it's just really, really tough, isn't it? I remember on one occasion he asked me to get a move on when I was already driving at my limit of feeling safe and close to the speed limit. My response was, if my driving isn't good enough, we should have called an ambulance.

I don't recall him commenting on my driving again. But to this day, I have never felt comfortable to drive with passengers in the car for any reason at any time. It just feels like a weight of responsibility. But living in a village, as well as now being on my own, I'm widowed, I wouldn't choose to be without a car. I do value the independence, the freedom and the lifeline. Now over 60, I also have a senior rail card,

which I use frequently to visit cities and for much longer journeys. That too has its own freedom and enjoyment. My nearest railway station is about 10 miles away, so I do need to drive to the station. That's often the case, isn't it? For all the merits of a senior rail card, and can I say it's worth every penny that bloody card, because you get a third off.

Third off every trip. And I think it's 70 quid for three years fee. You've got all this ahead of you. I see. Never mind, Castro GTX. I'm still enjoying my friends and family. Oh, yes, of course. And the ovulation that you occasionally allude to.

Nobody buys it for a second. I was told by a doctor, Jane. I was as surprised as you. I didn't want to still be oscillating. No, it wasn't Dr. Robert. From the blow monkeys. No, it wasn't Dr. Robert. No, it wasn't.

Anyway, it's a really interesting topic, this. And we're not taking driving lightly because it is really important because you could do harm. But I just think so many of us just need to, you know, find out why we're lacking a little bit confidence and get on with it. Because as Fiona says in that email, unfortunately you might at some point be plunged into a situation where you are in a, you have to drive. Very much so.

Yeah. And it's horrible if you're doubting yourself. I don't think we should be as Luddite about driverless cars as perhaps I've been tempted to be. Because that's the solution. Because that's the solution. And it's very easy to only be reporting the bad side of driverless cars at the moment. But Actually, it's liberating independence for so many people. I'll tell you what, it's great, isn't it? Because our kids will never be able to get away from us. They'll think they'll move to the middle of nowhere, and they'll suddenly see at the end of the road.

It's, hello. We're in driverless cars. We've come to visit with an enormous suitcase, and we're never going to leave. Be brilliant. But I do think, and then we will move on from this topic, that the smart motorways thing is just absolute bunkum. I know so many people who have put off using them,

I think that is one of the cases where the evidence is really stacking up. And, you know, when we say evidence, that's people who have died horrendous deaths on a motorway when they've broken down and through no fault of their own, through the fault of the people who've made the bloody motorways. You know, they cannot get off them and they can't take their children to safety. I just cannot, I cannot understand how those things have managed to come into existence. And the idea that everybody is looking up at a gantry and understanding the sign that's up there

that says in 500 yards time, there's a vehicle in the left-hand lane, you need to slow down. Do you know what that sign is? Most people don't. So most people are driving along in oblivion. And I would like them to really, really have a rethink on that and there ends my rant.

Okay, well, there must be a logic to smart motorways. Well, it's just... The logic, Jane, is just to get people to their destination faster in more vehicles. So it's a bet against technology. It's a bet against safety. And it's cost people dear. I just don't get it at all. Baby Oboist comes in from Kath and Kirstie. I'm taking a deep breath, everybody. I'm sorry about that. Dear Jane, Fee and Eve. And obviously, Rosie, you would have been included. Please forgive my indulgence, but on listening to your latest podcast, I felt I should give you a laugh.

Here we have my chance. I think you have. Very much so. we have my chunky screw-on limb photo from a 1962. Yes. That's all I can say. Yes. Mothers seem to love this, but I'm not sure my mother would agree

as I was not, as your listener's son, a tiny baby at birth. I presented myself to the world two weeks premature at £10. Sorry, yes, 10 and three quarter pounds. Ten and three quarters. Two weeks premature. Good Lord. I'm still chunky.

unlike your listener's son and you say then, as you may have noticed at French by the sea, no we met beautiful, lovely women. Don't start doing that. Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. As an aside, if you do take up the oboe again, remember it's not always a glamorous look. You're very, very, very right there.

I think you're the lovely people who gave me a double read. You look like an absolute idiot when you're... Sorry about that, Kath and Kirsty, by the way. You don't look particularly pleasing when you're playing the oboe because you have to put your lips over your teeth so you're creating a very, very thin lip

you're blowing through a double reed it's all coming from your diaphragm quite often when you're getting towards the end of a breath you will go bright pink with the exertion of it all and sometimes your cheeks just puff out like that you haven't sold it to me so I won't be taking off the oboe in later life

no I think I could see you I could see you being a cellist Oh no, no, no. I had a great aunt who played the cello. She was a tiny woman. She was probably only about four foot ten, I would have thought, maximum. And she wielded a cello for many, many years. She was one of those ladies who would go around entertaining old people well into her own 80s. And the rest of the family did think, do they want to be entertained by her on the cello? But she did it anyway.

I don't think that's a sexy instrument. I do apologise to anybody. I'm really going to... Oh, I think it's a beautiful. It can be beautiful. I mean, Jacqueline Debray and some great cellists. I just, I think, I don't know. When I was at the ballet, I think of a night,

I was true. I was looking at the orchestra at the Opera House in London's still fashionable Covent Garden. Of course, it used to be the fruit and veg market, but now it's the home of ballet and opera. And the orchestra at the Opera House, I really do want to know what's going through their mind because there's a lot of the time

when they're not doing anything. But they obviously have to be completely alert. They can't just nod off or do a crossword. They've got to be waiting. But one of the pieces required them to just basically just gently scrape their violins in a way that was barely discernible. You had to have quite good hearing to pick it up.

And then there'd be nothing for another five, six, seven minutes, with nothing going on. It's a funny old life, isn't it? Well, it is. Yes. I think you definitely can't dip out an orchestra. And you have to have huge talent to be in an orchestra because your standard is absolutely off the school.

You're way beyond anything I'd ever be capable of. But I just wonder, and I know that there are stories of the people who play in the orchestras at musicals who are just literally, I mean, they're not even fully conscious some of the time because they've done it so often. Their thoughts are very much in the pub, that they turn up anyway.

Or am I doing an injustice to these people? No, I'm sure you're not doing an injustice. I think once you get to know a piece of music really, really well, it does almost play itself. Right, take your word for that. Yeah, and if you've got any kind of ensemble who are used to playing with each other, I think it's a little bit like that, you know,

that tailwind that you get in a pack of runners or cyclists or whatever. You're all carrying each other along with you. So if a second violin is just having a bad night or perhaps not really doing anything, would anybody notice? I'm sure they would, yeah. And I think there's intense rivalry, especially between those kind of positions in orchestras. So I'm sure that it would be noted.

And I guess it just depends on whether you like the person that you're playing with. So I only know the wind section of orchestras, but you know what you're saying now. I love it. It's not what the rumour said. First, stop it. It's so nasty. You'd have a first oboe, second.

and obo first, second flute, and all that kind of stuff. So even the flautists and the oboists would be more than one. Yeah, but you would always be carrying each other.

Always. I never played an orchestra and, you know, albeit I only played in my youth, I didn't do it professionally. But you were always there for each other. That was the really lovely thing about it. But I dare say,

in a professional capacity, there are exactly the same kind of nuances and character frictions going on as there are in any other work. this is interesting territory. So if you've been in that position, we would love to hear from you. And by the way, I'm not knocking the orchestra at the opera house

or anywhere else because I just think the talent level is off the scale and the concentration required remarkable. But also they don't get to see the dancers. So I don't know. It must be a funny old life down there. Unless they can see, maybe there are screens down there. I'm sure there are mirrors, but I don't think you'd really want to. Would you?

Well, I don't know. You might want a bit more entertainment. I just want to watch the same. Pirouette light after? I'm not a ballet fan, so I shouldn't enter this conversation at all. Can we just go back to Kath and Kirstie for a tiny moment? Because you've also sent a picture, I think, of one of you with your mum. And I mean, you are.

So I'm laughing because we've all been there. I mean, you do, you know, your child is absolutely beautiful to you. And the euphemisms that sometimes come your way when other people glance across your absolutely beautiful babies, Bonnie is often used for a very, very large child whose cheeks are actually so big they're about to fall off. And this is what's being demonstrated in one of your pictures. But your mum just looks so happy and proud. And also I can't quite place that expression. Can you place that expression? It's very specific. Well, I think she's plotting something. But I'm not quite sure what.

Anyway, they really did make us. They just made us laugh. So thank you very much indeed for sending them, Cassidy. Yes. And just a couple of quickies. Really want to say hello to Jen. Jennifer is your full name, obviously. She's had what she describes as a really rocky couple of years, but she's finding a little bit of comfort in listening to the podcast. And she just says, I've been feeling increasingly isolated. But I do feel through the pod that I've got a community of friends when I listen to you, wittering on about the delicious trivia of life. Well, you're very welcome and thank you for sending us that lovely email. And I just wanted to also mention Collette, who says my amazing eight-year-old daughter is a keen jigsaw her, jigsaw-uh. She has additional learning needs and due to contracting encephalitis too has had poor minor motor development. Now occupational health suggested jigsaws

and Poppy has never looked back. She's currently on a thousand pieces, at eight. I marvel at her patience, says Colette. She starts off randomly, doesn't bother with the edges first, and that gives me a proper neck twitch. She doesn't want any help ever, and she will take maybe a couple of months, but will continue on and off until it's completed.

It's amazing, and something I would recommend for any child who perhaps prefers to work alone at things. She's so proud when she's done the puzzle, but without so much as a look back she just crumples it all up and puts it back in the box and gets out a new one just no room for sentiment with Poppy there but that's interesting and thank you very much for that Colette

and oh yes one more perspective on Liz Earle because this is from Susanna I'm 43 relatively at ease with the thought of ageing my mother died when I was a teenager and my dad fairly recently I have a daughter with learning disabilities and complex needs who will need lifelong support So you might think that Liz's advice and tips on ageing felt out of touch with my reality and I would have listened on with withered, exhausted indifference.

However, I actually thought her suggestions were refreshingly simple and most importantly free. She didn't offer any extraordinarily complex advice. No impossible quest to far-flung rainforest to extract the nectar of an endangered, to extract the nectar of an endangered species for our skin. she suggested small, manageable tips like opening a window in the morning, drinking more water, thinking slightly better about what we ingest.

So Susanna has taken some positives from what she heard from Lizelle. So not everybody felt the way that, I have to be honest, the majority of our contributors felt about Liz. Still number one in the hardback charts, by the way. And the author we're going to talk to in just a couple of moments' time

after these brief creative and commercial messages. I think people are interested. I'm doing a link. Oh, sorry. At the top of the bestseller charts. Sorry, yes. You can speak now. No, because I've got the guest wrong.

You carry on. In fact, start that whole thing again. I apologise. No, I'm done. I'm spent. You will understand. Here he is, Peter Hannington. It's very hard to write good crime fiction.

It's a saturated genre. Too many writers chasing the same readers, using the same formula. This is where the twist comes in. This is when the body turns up. and it takes a talented writer to make a thriller thrill. Peter Hannington is that talent. His first four books took us into the world of William Carver, an old-school journalist, more likely to be carrying his work around in a plastic bag than a memory stick.

And the books investigate the place where journalism rubs up against morality and gives itself a wipe-down with the deep state and geopolitics. His latest book, though, introduces us to a completely different set of characters. Set in Brighton, we meet Susan, a care worker, and her dad Arthur, an elderly accountant who used to do the books of some of Brighton's dirtiest people, what might start to leak out of the ledger of the mind in old age. Pete's story weaves around memory, loyalty, and that essential place that a decent writer can take us to. Can bad people also be capable of good things? Hello, Pete. How are you?

Very well, yeah. It's lovely to be here. Well, it's very good of you to come in. More about Susan, please, who I think is a fantastic, written character. Oh, thank you. Yeah, Susan Cotton is inspired partly by the carers that have been coming in to look after my own mum, who has vascular dementia and lives in Brighton. And for the last couple of years, has been living independently still in a place called Furscroft, which is actually the scene of quite a lot of the action in the book,

a scene of at least one slightly grisly murder. But my mum, the reason that she's not yet in the care home and we haven't yet had to sell everything, including our own children, is because the Brighton and Hove Council and Social Services give her two carers a day. And each morning and evening these women and, and a few men come in and help her keep going, basically.

I mean, she's a very, very, my mum is a very, very stoic and determined person, but they help keep the whole show on the road. And their stories, their life stories are amazing. So it's partly inspired by that. And it's partly inspired by Brighton, frankly, by some of the interesting people. that end up in Brighton and the incredibly strong women I know my own family members included who live there. So Jane and I were talking about this earlier. Why is Brighton so brightony in the world of fiction? Because there are other British seaside resorts that have got interesting

communities, that kind of combination of wealthy, artistic, but also people who are absolutely on their uppers and have nowhere else to go. So why does Brighton get all of the what's it? It's true. It probably gets more attention than it really deserves. Although it does seem to attract interesting people. When I was first starting as a journalist, way, way back, I interviewed a guy called Robert Shelton,

who was Bob Dylan's official biographer for a while, before Bob tired of it, and is credited actually with discovering Dylan. and Robert Shelton banged around various parts of America having been born in Chicago and then came to the UK and found his way to Brighton

and started working on the evening August there and when I talked to him about why Brighton he said that his theory was that in America all the oddballs all the weirdos and the eccentrics there's a sort of gravitational pull west and they go to San Francisco or L.A. And he thinks that in the UK

the sort of the marbles head in a different direction and they go to the southeast. So he had this feeling that Brighton and Margate and, you know, Lewis and all around that area, you've just got these slightly strange people who went to the end of the line, realised that any further and they were going to get their feet wet, and they stayed there. And then I suppose you've got the universities, you know, you've got the fact that a lot of, young people go to either Brighton or Sussex University and then they never ever leave and it's in Keith Waterhouse's words also a town and has been since the you know forever a town that is

perpetually helping police with its inquiry. That's a very, very, very good line. It was true when Keith said it and it's still true now. Yeah. So you have an affinity and an affection and a link to Brighton. I mean, do you have an affinity and affection and a link to the criminal fraternity, Peter Harington? Well, now I have to be a bit careful about my current family history, but I have... Well, yes, I mean, if anybody is actually under arrest at the moment, let's not mention that. Yeah, okay, let's let's, I might go historical then rather than talk about my brother and his friend, staff and Dave the Rave.

So, well, I'll leave them off to one side, and I'll say that. that when my dad first went to Brighton in the late 50s, he was a cub reporter on the evening Argus and light local radio, he basically got to do, and if you had the hunger to report, you could report on anything. So he did showbiz, he did sport, he did crime, he did everything, but he fell in with what he thought was a good crowd back then. And he used to socialise at a place called the Whiskey-A-Gogo, which along with a club called the Blue Gardinia, these were sort of coffee bars come nightclubs in around the centre of Brighton. And they were owned by this guy called Harvey Holford, who was dubbed the King of Brighton,

nightclub owner. And my dad was friendly with him. He was actually best man at Harvey's wedding to Christine. and then they sort of fell out a little bit for various reasons and then a couple of years later Harvey Holford killed his wife. He killed Christine. He shot her in what was described by the papers as murder at the Blue Gardinia. And my dad got a call late at night.

I think it was from the mirror saying, do you know Harvey Holford? Have you heard what he's done? And he said, of course, I know Harvey. you know, I was his best man. He said, well, you know, this is the story. And my dad ended up slightly building something resembling a career on the basis of the fact that he had the inside track on this story.

But he also had a lot. And the way that that story almost ends is that Holford got a pitifully short sentence. He went down for something like four or five years. because the male judge bought the idea that this was a crime of passion and it was all very sordid and it went on for a very long time and you can have your own opinions on how much has really changed between the early 60s and now. But that, I mean, that did used to happen a lot, didn't it?

That a man could use the defence of, you know, his wife was just a bit too much or just a bit too emotional. That's exactly, I've been reading back through the old cuttings and that's exactly how it was, you know, I think the things were said like, you know, what man wouldn't behave in this way presented with such a sort of difficult situation, such an insult to his bride.

So it was really pretty nasty. Yeah. I mean, there are some terrible things that are alluded to, as happening to women, one woman in particular, in your book. But I think what you do, do very cleverly is you do quite a lot of stuff off camera. I mean, your books aren't detailing the guts and the gore and the violence and particularly sexual violence against women.

Has that been a very deliberate choice? And do publishers and editors kind of want more of that stuff? There does seem to be more of that stuff on the page now. I think there is a lot more of that stuff on the page. And I mean, I have a very low tolerance. for that sort of stuff. And the books that I was inspired by to write this book are books by people like Patricia Highsmith, who Graham Green called the Queen of Apprehension and Graham Green himself and Patrick Hamilton. And I find it always much more interesting if you take something to a point and then let the reader decide what the next bit looks like or sounds like or feels like

because it respects the intelligence of the reader. And also it's just more frightening. and more interesting to write and hopefully more interesting to read as well. So I don't like, you know, violent scenes particularly that you do get a bit of, I don't think my editor would, I don't think she'd mind me saying that occasionally she will say, come on, someone has to die pretty soon.

Okay, that'd be too nice. It's crime fiction, commit a crime. Yeah, and I know that other variety. have told me that basically every 50 pages something horrific has to happen. But my books aren't exactly of that type, I don't think. But also I think your books are about consequence. And too often in crime fiction, there's actually very little real consequence. So you'll get the murder, usually of a young woman, about every four chapters.

And actually no mention of anybody being particularly upset. it's just all about whether or not a perpetrator is going to be found. And I think your books are very different to that, actually. Yeah, thank you. I hope so. It is about consequence. And, you know, at the heart of this book is a relationship between a daughter and her father and her discovery, not just that he wasn't the man she thought he was,

but the Brighton that he knew the town and city that he knew was not the town and city that she experienced. And she has a daughter herself. So, you know, he has been educated by her and she is learning some not particularly nice things about him, but it's all about consequence, consequence and memory and what happens when you start to lose those key memories. So Arthur is terrified.

of the moment when he will no longer be able to remember Susan or his granddaughter Ruby's name because when you lose things like that that's the scaffolding what have you really got left? Yeah. So, I mean, you've already told us that you do have personal experience of what dementia does to a loved one.

So when you're writing, I mean, you've got to be so careful I think with dementia more than anything not to fall into what can be quite lazy tropes for the sake of the plot. I mean, it is an illness and a disease that lends itself to incredible stories, doesn't it? Because you can have the pop-up of a sudden flash of reality that twists your plot around. So how have you managed that when it's actually about people you really love? Yeah, I've managed it partly by stealing,

their stories or, you know, being inspired by so somebody who I love has vascular dementia and is dealing with it in the, like most people deal with it in the most incredibly dignified way and there is a certain poetry to how my mum deals with sort of names and words and things going AWOL. So where she lives in Brighton, she looks out onto the channel and she can see the wind farm the offshore wind farm and on her days when there is no fog in her head and no fog on the channel she'll she'll call you over and and point out the wind turbines and tell you that they're spinning and then on other days she'll call them windmills remember the windmills and so you look at the wind and then um the other the other week she came

a she pointed out the window and she said you can the it's it's lifting now you can see the um the turning towers. And she was actually quite pleased with that. And I was delighted with it. Yeah. And that's a slightly flowery way of saying that fundamentally she's fine with the support primarily of my sister because, you know, like in so many families,

the heavy lifting with my mum's dementia is done by my sister Zoe. Me and my brother do some, but not nearly as much and not as much as we should, probably. In fact, as part of the research, so the other element of the research is reading a lot of books about dementia, which I started reading because my mum has dementia and then thought that this could be part of what I write about as well. So you wrote four books starring William Carver before, and this is your first one where we meet Susan. Does that mean that we'll have more where Susan's the main protagonist? I do think she's a great, great character. Thank you.

Yes, I've finished the second one. I very much hope there will be more because I've started to enjoy writing them, making that switch from thriller to crime was slightly terrifying at the start. And I think I took a while to find my feet, and maybe that's why the story that I've written. and is so inspired by personal choice. But now I'm, I too like Susan and I like Arthur and I like Ruby and Marcia and various other characters.

And so I start thinking about their life. I mean, I love William Carver. And William Carver was, you know, I spent a long time working in broadcast radio and... Don't mention the organisation. I died. We don't know where you worked. That's what I'm asking.

I can't remember either actually. It's been a long-inous. I was very insignificant. I just wanted to ask one question about the book, which I'm halfway through, and I am really loving it. But the relationship between Susan and her father, this isn't about you and your mom, by the way, but she probably will want to be angry with him

when she finds out about what he's been up to and who's associated with. But because he is losing his memory and he has dementia, isn't she going to be robbed of her right to be angry? I was really thinking about this. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's fascinating and hopefully you'll get some of that. There was something I read in, I think it was my father's brain,

this fantastic book. I'll remember the author's name in a minute, an account of his father and this term that is used, it's like arguing with a broken machine, which sounds brutal. And I could never think in those terms about my mum and he couldn't think about those terms about his father. but you do have to, yeah, you always have that in your mind.

You know, you're getting angry and you don't really have the right to it. I think then you have to go off and, you know, shout at the sea or scream into a pillow or speak to your friends about it because you just double down on the guilt if, when I get crossed with my mum, I then feel ten times worse. but it is really interesting. It's a real dilemma for carers, and I know my sister feels it very profoundly, and I'm not quite sure what the answer is.

Do you mind celebrities hogging the bestseller market? I mean, you've done writing the hard way. Yes, excellent. Peter Harington, thank you. No, I think if a book is a good book, then it's a good book. I mean, you... But what if it's a good book that hasn't been written by the person whose name is on the front cover? Oh, yeah.

No, I think that's lousy, isn't? Yeah, no. I think we're all a little less if we're reading ghostwritten books by people just, you know, because we're familiar with their name. And I think good publishers and good journalists can kind of see through that stuff. But, you know, the culture that we're in at the moment, the obsession with celebrity, book writing books is a business I can see why they do it because they want to sell more books

you know all the books you get in the run up to Christmas are by familiar names but I think there are still enough honest readers out there who want to discover new things and hopefully there's enough you know the landscape is broad enough that you can have both yeah I think I mean I'm sure there are

and decent readers always always want to read decent books. I just think it's a strange thing. We've got more access to information and we're sold more things than ever before, but it's harder to find the things that we want. And that seems to be where very good writers aren't being served very well

because it's just too much noise around the very, very big people. I think that's limited, you know, there aren't that many shows like this that still do intelligent speech. there aren't many you know journalism good journalism is in short supply and good you know getting a review for a book is hard because there aren't as many newspapers which are still committed to it you know you've got robbie millen who's an absolute legend and and still cares but it's harder you know it's harder in all that i won't mention any more competitors

but you know it's a smaller pool and so that there are fewer ways of getting the reader to know that it's not just a, you know, I mean, I feel a bit conflicted because I am currently ghostwriting a book for the Eurovision entry that you just played. And it's taking quite a long time because I'm trying to write it in German and I don't speak any German. Is it called Fearfumf? Yes, yes. It's very odd, isn't it? Ein's five dry.

Yeah. Well, Robbie Millen loves your books as well. He's called you a real talent too, hasn't he? Well, I hadn't actually heard that because he hadn't told me that personally, but... Yes, he said that on this programme. Oh, did he? Well, that means a lot coming from him.

He'll hate to be mentioned Robin Allen, weren't you? So let's stop. Oh, yes. He's a very shy and retiring young man. Peter Hannington and his latest novel is called The Darkest Tide. If you want to go back, start right at the very beginning. Different characters are involved in his first trilogy. And you should start with a dying breed.

Yeah, I do love the darkest tide, though. It comes big thumbs up from me too. Yeah, hard recommends all round. We are back next week. Enjoy your weekend with Jane and Fee at Times Dot Radio. Stay safe on those motorways and we'll reconvene on Monday. Yeah, see you there. Congratulations.

You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do, do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.