Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The nation's bits were put through a frightful ordeal! (with William Boyd)

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

We welcome you to Maundy Thursday. In the penultimate episode before Jane and Fi go off for a week, they learn that their influence knows no bounds in Purley Way! They also chat Winchester vs Basingstoke rivalries, cat-arse dispensers, erotic Ottolenghi recipes, why you should never turn to a bottle of Malibu… and a visit from the Easter Bunny. Plus, best-selling author William Boyd discusses the paperback of ‘The Predicament’, the second instalment in the Gabriel Dax trilogy. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Right, welcome on board. It is, now it's strictly speaking, it's Morn Day Thursday, isn't it? It is. Have you brought me a small pouch with some coinage in it in your capacity as what? Ecclesiastical affairs correspondent? Well, the monarch does that. Doesn't it? They, he or she. Yeah, they do. They give money to the poor. I remember it was very exciting when the Queen visited Winchester Cathedral. To do it.

To do it on Mourndy Thursday. It is actually, in its own way, rather a lovely tradition. Yeah, it is. I think it's one of the good ones. What's in the pouch, though, these days? Commemorative coinage of some sort, I think. They don't do tap and pay now. No, I imagine.

Just go along and beep. And ask the king for a donation. I mean, he's got a few quills. Yeah, was it £5, £10, £15, your choice. Five grand, $50,000, 500,000, whatever it might be. Anyway, this is our last... Oh no, it's not, because we've got the book club podcast tomorrow when we discuss

Neville Shoots, a town like Alice. And thank you so much to everybody took part in that, and you can get that podcast tomorrow. We recorded it yesterday. Yep, and feel free if you listen to it and completely disagree with us to drop us an email over the Easter weekend. I need to say a huge thank you to Fiona

who says, hello feet. Now, this is a handwritten card chain. The very moment, your Times literary chat. that's Robbie Millen, said, Capital by John Lancaster, was the very same moment I was putting said book into my charity shop bag. When you said you hadn't read it, I took that as a sign from the universe, that I should gift it to you. Now, all of this high excitement happened on our afternoon show,

which is between two and four. I'm just going to say it quietly without the corporate Cathy Speed. It's between two and four. It happens on Monday to Thursday, and it's available on a DAB radio in your car and also on the app if you download it. All of those things are free. It's a bit tricky on a car.

Actually, I had to scan mine about three times. It is a bit, but I don't think we should focus on that. To do it. Yeah, but don't be disheartened. Oh, no, keep trying. Keep trying. Take a week off if you have to. We keep your company between two and four.

And this was in our book slot, which was with Robbie Millen, and he always brings us fun times. He's very naughty, actually. Got me into a lot of trouble last week. not a very expensive gift I admit back with Fiona a bit of a cheap scape more in fact but it's sent with lots of love and appreciation to half of the entity

known as Fee and Jane or is it Jane and Fee never know neither do we although contract in no contractually we do here we're very much Jane and Fee aren't we back at the other place huge change is massive really hurt long may you rain over times to us have a lovely Easter that was so thoughtful of you

because you say Fiona that you just popped it in a jiffy bag and sent it. But it's a right old bother doing that, isn't it? Because John Lancaster's capital is a thick book. It's about 600 pages. So you wouldn't have been able to get it into a normal letterbox. You've gone somewhere else to post it. And I couldn't thank you enough.

It absolutely made my week that you sent me that. And I'm going to dig into it. I haven't read it. I think I did buy it. It was out in 2008. I bought it thinking I would read it. And then I had a baby and I didn't. Oh yes, it's funny that, isn't it? I mean, I still laugh at myself. I took a book into the maternity hospital.

Because I thought I'd have plenty of time. Funny. It didn't happen for me, Fiona. So bless you. Thank you very much indeed. Hugely appreciate it. Right, incoming, who's just come into the studio. It's the Easter bunny in the form of our executive podcast producer, Rosie, with an egg, with a chocolate egg. I normally have a couple of hard-boiled eggs at this time of day, but today we've got a chocolate. Okay. Is this, you can speak if you like, Rosie. Where did this come from?

From a listener. Has it been checked? Do we know who? Yes. I've have the poison people been on. Do we know who sent it? The Easter bunny. The Easter bunny.

There was a card and I cannot remember who it's from. I can find out. Rosie will find out. All right, thanks, Rosie. James made a very good point. Has somebody more junior than us taste tested it like they used to... Rosie has. Okay, that's fine.

Five live. the terrible white powder. It's it anthrax, wasn't it, in the States that was being sent around. No, we're not laughing at all. So everybody was on very high anthrax alert and a missive went round and I'd probably be able

to find this somewhere just in case lawyers are in touch that said at 5 live, anything addressed to us as presenters had to be opened by a junior member of staff. In case, in case and it's just like, you can't, you can't do that. Nobody should be opening it

but the idea that an AP or a PA is just a dispensable person on the front line of anthrax no the BBC gets a lot right but sometimes I do open all of your eyes a note we open it mostly under the guise of that but also just because we're a bit nosy

have you ever found something that you rather wish you hadn't opened have you what have you found come in Rosie Rosie doesn't get on often enough. Come in, Rosie. I would say that we have had some correspondence that hasn't been... Well, it's just been a bit odd.

I wouldn't say it's been unkind. It's just been very strange. Hasn't poisoned us? Hasn't poisoned us? Nothing... Yeah, we've not eaten... Everything we've eaten has been great, isn't it? Yeah, really nice.

Can you just talk about the email that said I was trying to scan people? Oh. So today, we have another email address that is for Times Radio listeners in general that we don't use because our listeners are special. But it is studio at times. dot radio and somebody had emailed in and said, hello, I've had an email from Jane Garvey,

asking me to do an interview about my book on BBC Radio 4. But she's asked me to pay her $160. No. Yes. Is this a scam? And then Emma, who is the producer for breakfast, sent an email back saying, in bold, this is a scam.

Please do not transfer the money. But actually, public service announcement, we probably, please don't. We're not asking anyone for money. Jane, you've been busted. I know, I mean, I honestly never thought. You didn't think that anyone would connect the dots, but by chimney they have. You caught up with me.

Absolute scallywag. This is my last ever additional fare by everybody. What a way to go. But you walk out $160 rich. I do. I'm retiring. Is it insulting that it only costs $160. Oh, go.

Sorry, right. I'm going to go and find out who sent us the Easterer. I would tell Eve. Yeah. Because that's very kind of. It's a very generous. It's a proper big ones. It's really, I broke my lent with it just a moment to go. Do you want an inside chocolate truffle or do you want a bit of the chocolate?

Can I have some shell? Can I have a chocolate? Yes, of course you can. So it did say on the box though that there were no, it was no chocolate truffles. So it's chocolate shell but no chocolate truffles. So the truffles are vegetable fat with a flavouring, aren't there? You don't want to think about it too much. Don't ever think it, just eat it.

I don't think that's right for you. It's milk, hazel. much. No, but I'm just reading from the box. I haven't made it up. I'll tell you what, we've got quite a few emails about how annoying is to listen to people eating in public places. So,

do you want to just finish your mouthfuls, ladies? I'm going to bring in, and I'll talk quickly and loudly, Riccadito, who joins us from Brighton. Dear Fee, Jane and Eve, your listener talked about the cinema viewer who emptied her bag of popcorn into her jumper. I sympathise

with the listener, but honestly, it could have been worse. I went to an afternoon screening last week and the person in front of me had a huge bag of popcorn. They rustled the packets so unnecessarily loudly to grab a handful and did this every half minute. If only they'd tipped it into their jumper, it would have been much more considerate. I'm a peaceful person, but I'm ashamed to confess I fantasised about violence. I didn't commit any. Instead, I left the film 30 minutes in for the sake of my blood pressure. I'm not sure if people did not used to be so noisy in the cinema or if I've become decreasingly tolerant,

maybe both with love. Well, Rick Ardito in Brighton, I'm completely with you. I sometimes find it so distracting that people are eating really, really loudly. For me, it's the crunchy sound of a plastic bag full of M&Ms or whatever it is. And people are just eating whole, just mouthfuls all the time.

Well, it just takes you out of the cinematic. experience as well, doesn't it? So you're spending more time thinking, is the bloke in 32A near the end of his great big family grab bag of M&M's and you're not concentrating on the very latest plot twist? So actually, the woman who did pour everything

into a jumper and mix it around was probably an easier person to have in the cinema than the rustlers. But there is, in London, the national film, can you say the word? Theatre. Thank you.

Their cinema is no food. So it's a completely silent cinema. Oh, is it? The one on the South Bank? Yeah. Because it respects the film. Well, I did see Dr. Chavago there about three or four years ago. And I've seen Dr. Chavago again since on the telly.

It is better on the big... Wow, it's such a good film. I've mentioned it before, but I love it. It's a very lovely cinema experience there because it's quite kind of brutalist, modernist architecture. And it is a lovely place to go. So I know it wouldn't be too far to come from Brighton. It might be too far for a lot of people,

especially our listeners in Melbourne. But it is completely and utterly food-free. Now, I'm going to read this email, but I hope it doesn't sound like we're judging the young woman involved here because I'm rather jealous of her, actually. We'll mention the name of our correspondent. It is Sarah.

On a recent flight to Malaga, the volume of food consumed by my very swelled 20-ish seat buddy was simply unbelievable. The flight wasn't full. We were in a three-seater and both agreed to leave the middle seat free, regardless of our actual seat allocation. A lovely, friendly, chatty girl she was. Perhaps she was a little bit too chatty, as I did have my puzzler book. Yes, I am a woman of a certain age. I'd come on, laden with a handbag and a flight bag which I'd pushed under the seat, full of excess clothes and extras. She breezed on, nothing more than a passport and a Morrison's bag for life. Before take-off, she opened a family-sized bag of fruit pastels,

kindly offered them round to all the neighbouring seats. Then she ate a bag of humbugs. Good God, they took some chewing, says Sarah. The flight took off. After a couple of minutes, she took out a prawn sandwich and a whole tube of pringles, both devoured within minutes. At this stage, I started writing in the notes column

of the cryptic crossword, what she was eating. She delved into the bag again quite soon afterwards for a grab bag of quavers. Still hadn't had a drink. By this time, I'd ordered two gin and top. She was a deal. Don't judge. We're not judging. She then took out a spicy chicken wrap and ate that in a couple of minutes. I was just incredulous by this stage. I should have saved my incredulity because she put her headphones on, looked like she was nodding off, then no, lunch back into the bag, took out a boxed Easter egg, ripped the cardboard, got the egg, smashed it on the table, offered me a chocolate button from the little bag, then ate the lot of the rest of it. She then put all the rubbish in the Morrison's bag, gave it to the steward and told me how much she was looking forward to her tapas, lunch. I mean, that's going some, isn't it? You've just got to be so, so thankful there wasn't any really extreme turbulence.

You really have. I'm really sorry. I've got to get a hanky now. This is hopeless. I do apologise. Why? What do we, have you dribbled? I just going to bowels again. I choked on my egg and then I'll be back. Okay, never mind. She hasn't got a land yard, so she won't be. Quick, Eve. Quick. Yep, let's sail again on the good ship, Fee and Eve. Even Fee, whichever way you like. The many challenges of daughters and their boyfriends, vegetarian and otherwise. Okay, you need to declare yourself again as a vegetarian. What will you be having over the Easter weekend?

Well, I'm pescatarian, so I think I might be having a Good Friday Fish Supper. Good Friday Fish Supper. Now, forgive my complete ignorance about the significance and the religious... No. Don't take any deeper, because I don't know. Nope. Stop that right there. Okay, that didn't happen.

Should I just do the email? Please. Okay. Dear Janefee. Not for the first time when listening to you. I've had a spooky, Bromley moment as you appear to have a direct line into my life with the topics you discuss. I could write about my experience as a daughter with three brothers dealing with the care and ultimate deaths of elderly parents. Or I could tell you about my place as a fourth child girl, three older brothers.

And the fact my husband is also a fourth child boy, three older sisters. A lot of people have emailed us to say that they have in fact ended up with partners who are in the same place in the makeup of. of their family. So that is interesting. It's all part of affinity, isn't it? That you just do understand the everything that each of you has been through in your upbringing. It's just quite a good short-hand. You're looking at me quizzically. Jane's back everybody. I'm just wondering what it is, though. If it's true that you're more likely to end up with a partner in that same position as you, that's a very under-researched area, isn't it? We need to know much, much more about this. But we've stumbled upon this before, haven't we, with some.

many people having a really, really close birthday or the exact birthday to either their mother, their grandmother or, you know, somebody in their family. It's so, these things really are spooky. We're doing spooky Bromley moment email. I've always thought that should have a, its very own podcast, Spooky Bromley. Just call it that. We're going to carry on with our anonymous correspondent. My youngest daughter was in a wonderful two-year-long relationship whilst at university studying a very long, very intense course. I can still vividly remember the day she messaged me out of the blue to say that he had dumped her.

She was utterly heartbroken and shocked and it was very difficult to help her when she was a long way from home and about to take her fourth year exams. The advice I gave her was similar to the words of wisdom. You both dispensed to your listener. I told her to wallow in sadness for a while, eat chocolate, be kind to herself, watch comfort TV. And I also told her that although she couldn't see it at the time, time she would be better off without him in the long run and she shouldn't give him the satisfaction

of derailing her life or upsetting her exams which she had been working so hard for. It was a very difficult time for her and she remained sad about the relationship for months but she did turn it to her advantage and found inner grit to do brilliantly in her exams going on to get a first in her degree when she graduated the following year. She also made the most of her female friendships and formed very strong bonds which might not have happened if she had continued. a serious relationship at that time. And she's now in a very good place with a fantastic job, lots of very good friends and a lovely new boyfriend.

We will come to your Easter dinner in just a sec. But that is basically all being sent out to our lovely correspondent who contacted us about finding out that her boyfriend had snogged somebody else in Manchester. And actually another one about... And in Manchester. In Manchester. I mean, that would be the...

Put the lid on it for... Tin lid on it for me. When was the last time you were in Manchester? Well, for one of my five-life reunions. So quite recently. Reasonably recently. Why don't you just call them meeting up with friends? That's so bizarre because...

But I went to a karaoke place in Manchesterford that night. Yeah, that was quite funny. But if I go out with lots of people that I've known since GLR, we never call it a reunion. We're just like meeting... We're just called meeting up. We're slightly sending it up. Oh, but yes.

But the Manchesterification of Manchester is quite a thing, isn't it? I don't want to get too political about this. But it's almost an unrecognizable city to what it was even 30 years ago. It's a proper success story in many ways. Jane, just putting it out there. I don't want to go on too much. Oh, God, of course you don't. I mean, but you know, it was funny growing up.

I mean, how many miles away? Is it about 40 miles down the year? M62. And there was a culture of simply not going to Manchester. People who did go used to talk about how great the shops were and the rest of us were going, well, mutter, why would you go there? I mean, it turned out they were right, but it was just bizarre. There was just, we didn't really think of it as a place worth visiting. Well, I think Winchester and Basie Stoke very similar. There we are. It's probably the same. But you didn't have the argument about a ship canal, which is what broke Liverpool and Manchester apart. Can I just say it's not the same? Is it not the same? Is it not the same?

Is there not any rivalry? There must be. No, in Hampshire there must be rivalry. I don't think there's rivalry, but I think there's probably a little bit of snobbishness, actually, if I'm honest. Well, which is, who's snobby about who there? Well, Winchester has a cathedral, a round table. A couple of prisons.

A couple of prisons. A county court, yes, county court. Winchester is on the circuit, isn't it? So it's even bigger than a county court. And it's got a very, very well-to-do private school for boys. So I think it does get a... I think it would consider itself at the hide table. That's what I'd say. And I like Basingstoke very much.

A more modern church there. The only place you've mentioned in Winchester I've been to is the prism. I'm afraid I can't bring you. I always think it's quite... Is it the prison that looks out over Hillias, the garden centre? I've always thought that must be very, very... cruel. I can't remember. I do remember that at the time I went, which was to do a day in the life of a prison feature for the BBC. I went, it had a men's prison and that was the bulk of the sort of

prison estate in Winchester, but that it was also attached to a female prison, which was part of the same sort of building, loosely, very loosely speaking. Anyway, I certainly learned a thing or two that day, as you usually do if you go to a prison. Can I just bring in Ella who wanted to talk about the listener going through break up and heartbreak and she had said, could you expand on how to find your dignity? What does finding and keeping your dignity look like?

What are the options of how to be in the face of bad behaviour? And I suppose all I meant by keeping your dignity is really you can choose to just properly, properly keep hold of yourself and I think betrayal and especially when it's a very public betrayal, and cheating and lying are very, very difficult things to come to terms with because they definitely, you know, they're slightly darken your soul. They take away a little bit of your optimism as to what human nature should be and your right to feel very hurt by that.

But I suppose your dignity is just your ability to go, well, that's them, isn't it? It's not me. And so I'm just going to stay myself, do my mind. own business, carry on, thank you very much, and not be completely and utterly torn asunder by somebody else's behaviour. Yeah, because it's nasty behaviour and you don't like it. So all that love and that light that you were feeling before, it's come a cropper. You don't like and you don't love the way that person has behaved. And I think you can sail forward with a bit more dignity. And also, if you're as young as our correspondent was, make hay while the sun shines.

You're at university. But can I just, based on my own experience, don't ever turn to Malibu. Okay. Well, that's a good one. Yeah. That's a very good one. Don't. Yeah. But you, you can find somebody else. Yes, find somebody else, but don't. What? Well, just don't drink things like that. Okay. I'm still thinking about what happened. I do want to get to the end of, yes. this email because our correspondent goes on to say, I couldn't help smiling at Jane's sympathy for anybody about to celebrate Easter with a cauliflower. The oldest daughter has had a number of relationships over the last few years and we have welcomed all of her boyfriends into our home for various meals and celebrations. This Easter we're going to meet her current partner for

the first time and he is vegetarian. Oh, we're lovely. A vegetarian for Easter. We have traditionally always had lamb for our Easter meal and we all thoroughly enjoy eating it. My daughter said her boyfriend wouldn't mind if we ate meat. Well, that's good of him. Just have vegetables. Flexible Fred. You know, I think that it's nice. He said it's fine, I'll just have the vegetables.

He's trying to be nice and don't make me something special. All right, yeah. Although, to be honest, if a retarder only takes a couple of minutes. But I don't feel this is right. So I've spent the last two weeks scouring my recipe books for a vegetarian dish that will make a suitable celebration meal. I have been imagining a kind of otolengi feast with obejines, chard lettuce. and carrots housed in

pomegranate seeds. No, even when you say it like that, it's still not erotic. Oh, I think some people have probably got going. But it's settled on a vegetable as sang. Oh, that's better.

With salads and garlic bread. I'm sure we will all enjoy it and at least it can be prepared the day before, which will mean plenty of time for Easter egg hunts on Easter morning, and we will be having roast lamb on Good Friday before he arrives, wishing you both a very happy Easter.

I love it. Happy Easter to you too. I love everything about that email, and I hope you have a fantastic weekend, and I hope he's a really, really nice young man, and that things are very much working out for your daughter. Funnily enough, in my shopping delivery this morning, I got the most Godgantuan cauliflower. I must have pressed on the wrong thing.

I never ordered a one that big. I think it would win the bloody village show in the giant cauliflower section, so what the hell I'm going to do with it? I can't imagine. I'll think of something. I just want to say hello to. to Cecilia, who says, I've got nothing funny or earth-shattering to say. But actually, Cecilia, that you then go on to say some very, just very positive and lovely things

about the podcast and how much it's meant to you over the last couple of years. And you've been through a rough time. You're now on the road to recovery. You say your husband was a rock, but you lot gave me smiles and laughs. Well, Cecilia, that's what we're here for, and thank you very much. Can I come in with some news on the Easter egg? Yes, please. Firstly, it's from Tracy in north-west London.

Well, Tracy, thank you. Thank you very much. It's really lovely. Secondly, I'm told from our exec, the truffles are no chalate, which means hazelnut milk chocolate in Italian. Oh, okay. Not.

No chocolate. Okay. Well, I don't want to dobb in the other member of our team who translated that, but Felix, you're wrong. It was a man. A man got it wrong. Eve, don't be ridiculous.

Heaven's above. Some quickies from me. Joan says, I tell you what, could I have another one of those? Because they are absolutely. A truffle. Yeah, delightful. There we are. Thank you.

Let's just carry on again. It's like Easter. Sugar harm. Easter morning. Easter morning, Monday, Thursday in the workhouse here this morning. I'm dispensing the preline doodars like there's no tomorrow. And the way things are going for, there might not be. Yeah.

But can we actually? I'll tell you what, if we eat this much chocolate before midday, we'll be in tears at two o'clock. We will be shattered. Yes, all that sugar. We'll have a terrible tantrum. We all sorts. I'll throw things around. Just shout out, they won't be listening, to the crew of Artemis II.

Did you watch the take-off? Well, I've seen little clips because that's all we do these days, as we just watch little clips. And actually, you only needed to see a little clip to know. It had worked. Exactly. Well, funny enough, I had a call of nature about 20 to 3 in the night. Don't normally.

But I think I was thinking, as you know, I like to say, I'd like to rather boast about my ability, not to go in the night. It's one of the things I put in my bio. Yes. It doesn't get up in the night. Yeah, well, when we did your dating profile. Yeah, I did include that line. Yep, sleeps through.

Anyway, I didn't last night. So I got back in Tepish. And it was 20 to 3, so I thought, I'll check. Has it taken off? And it had. And Eve was going to stay up, but you didn't, did you? No. 20 to...

Go on. Put yourself together. Clagging to my mouth. Yeah. It was 20 to midnight it was supposed to go off. So we sort of thought about it and we were like, oh yeah, maybe if it's 11pm. I know.

But contrast, our inability to stay up with the courage of the people prepared to sit on that rocket. Do I think we might fall at the first hurdle of astronaut school. Exactly. I'm going to get through the first day, would we? Anyway, big shout out to them. I'm listening to you. I'm loving your work and just fantastic.

Joan, back to Joan, jacket potatoes. Many years ago, I'm 80 next month. The first recipe I'm, cooked in domestic science was cheese boats. That sounds lovely, doesn't it? Jacket potatoes with the innards mixed with cheese and grilled. It became a firm favourite for me and my children. One day I didn't have enough cheese and just added a big dollop of plain yoghurt. Instead, it was superb. It adds a certain bite and fluffiness and actually became part of the recipe for us. Okay, Joan, that's interesting. Thank you very much. I actually don't think you can beat a really good jacket. It was just that Stigable

novel, A Twist in the River, did contain... It's funny because we know that food's not a big thing for Stig, is it? He doesn't really... He's not very food adjacent. He doesn't... He only eats one meal a day. Well, I think he likes his food, but he only eats one meal a day. Yeah, he's got to focus on the mind, I think, rather than the body. I get that impression with him.

He's one of those people who could have been... Who were the people who sat cross-legged on top of things for long periods of time? Yogis. Kind of like that. A yogi. Kind of. Zoe, just thought you'd like to know what true influences you are.

Have you seen this? I have. Empty shelf of MNS, that particular disinfectant, in the pearly way branch. Well, it's accompanied by the most adorable picture of a little one emptying a kitchen cupboard. Cheeky scamp. With purpose.

Yeah, with real purpose. Zoe says she's going to have to try and Croydon. I know. Well, they've all had to try and Croydon. Hasn't it ever gone well for me? It's good of you to keep going. I just keep having to say that this is not us being influencers. We've spread the word, but it is my friend M

who started this whole thing off with her fresh-smelling hallway in Waltham Stoke. Can you give my thanks to her? Because I'm actively looking forward to getting my mop out tomorrow on a bank holiday, good Friday, bonus ball of a day off. Yeah, and doing a bit of sluice around. I'm going to slop it around, and I know I'll enjoy the experience. Yeah. No, it's just.

It is very nice. It's very well packaged as well. It is, though, because you can line them all up in your cupboard and they look nice. I mean, I do find, and I don't want to curb our ability to prosper in terms of our sponsorship here, Eve. So you may have to cut this out. But I just find, A, the ingredients, but B, the colours on Silit Bang, and the name is just too much. It's in every single shape or form, it's an aggressive product. I don't want it under my sink. You've hit on something there.

What's that all about? It's just... Silly bang when you actually think about it. Yeah. Let's welcome in Ruth, who's been listening to us both from the very beginning of our days at the BBC. And Ruth, let's be friends in real life and don't worry about the issue of scrunching or folding your toilet paper.

The last time I was in a public toilet and it did have the cat's bum dispenser, I actually took the advice of all of our listeners. and I did fold instead of scrunch and I can see what you'll mean. That's obviously what you're meant to be doing. I don't know why I've been scrunching before. I mean, how many years have you scrunched?

I don't think the cat's-ass dispensers have been around for very long, have they? I don't remember them in my youth. Oh, that's true. They haven't actually. They are a relatively new development. Somebody somewhere must have designed them. Yeah, but also I think in your youth...

Was it Elon Musk? There are many times when you don't really notice Lurol. Well, do you remember the really brutal Lurol? Oh, terrible Trace. tracing paper. I mean, absolutely. It's just, God, I mean, the nation's bits were put through the most

frightful ordeal. Anyway, carry on. I really hope that's not going to be the title of this episode. Ruth says, and this is quite a serious point actually, but when I read it, I completely agree with you. I've written many emails in my head, etc., etc. Watching Molly versus the machines

has propelled me into a turmoil of shock, disbelief, incredible sadness, anger and frustration. I wanted to acknowledge what an amazing and brilliantly crafted film this is, and I'm confused as to how it's gone under the radar. It's up there with adolescence, in my opinion, and needs the airtime and recognition for the power it has. This should be watched by young people and their parents and maybe wonder if we could not start our own algorithm by promoting it very simply on social media. Would that be ironic or

maybe just antagonistic, hurtful and disrespectful to Molly and her family? Well, that's a very good point to make, but I think that her family and her father, Ian, who's done so much work on making sure that the true message of what happened to his daughter gets across, I think he just wants as many people as possible to know what's happening behind the screens that are kids using. But I think that point about it going under the radar is interesting, Jane, because it hasn't done the same kind of business in terms of being in conversations and I mean adolescence was mentioned in Parliament wasn't it?

It was extraordinary. It was a real kind of wow and I think Molly versus the Machines it tells you so much that you don't know about what's behind. But it's real isn't it? It is completely real. And maybe we find a fictional version easier to deal with. Do you think it is that? Well I can't think of any other explanation. The film has done so brilliant.

brilliantly because it uses actors to recreate the inquest and it uses, I mean, it's such a clever thing to do. It asks the machines to explain what happened to Molly. So the algorithms and the AI that contributed to her death are then asked to tell us the viewer about Molly. It makes you realize how incredibly advance they have become and how much they have taken from the real world to shove back at us. And I don't understand why that hasn't been talked about more. So I would say if anybody hasn't watched it, it's not an easy watch at all.

But it is of our times. That's the point. It's one of those things. It's kind of like if you really want to understand what's happening with your kids and with the social media platforms, I've not seen anything that explains it as well as that film. And maybe over the Easter weekend,

you don't want to watch all of it. but I would recommend it. I think it informs your choice. All four, isn't it? Yes, it is on all four. And it's about an hour and a half. And even if you can't do all of it, I would definitely say the opening 20 minutes

tell you things that you won't or you just won't know unless you've worked for one of those companies. Yeah, okay. And actually we had an email saying, everybody should read Careless People. I think the Careless People book is now out in paperback because I think it was only hardback and, you know, I appreciate that.

That can be a stretch. for a lot of people, but I think the paperback, if it's not already out, must be coming out quite soon. Susie says, some of your listeners may not know that the film Project Hail Mary is actually a book by Adam Weir. The book is 16 hours, 10 minutes are audio book form.

So the attempt to condense it into a two and a half hour film peaked my curiosity. And my conclusion is they did a good job. There's much more to the story than you see on the screen. The narrator is outstanding. The humor in the book feels very authentic and dry. Most importantly, the friendship between grace

and rocky is still incredibly beautiful. I mean, this does seem farcical. But honestly, the friendship established between the astronaut, played by Ryan Gosling, and a lump of rock with tentacles, is incredibly moving. You're looking at me as though, I've totally lost my marbles. No, I'm going to, my jury's out until I see it.

Okay. I've had pebbles, I'm very fond of. Oh, no, I keep pebbles. Yes, well, as you know. I found a heart-shaped one, actually, on the beach at West Whittering recently that was pretty, it was really good. Jane because it was it was properly like a heart yes so one side it was bigger than the other

because hearts aren't that perfect asymmetrical sense so they're quite jagged yeah so I thought okay this is great this is a sign have you got a favourite pebble contact Rory Stewart and Alice no

I've got I it's funny when you go to a beach I always pick something up and bring it home and it can be a pebble it can be as I once found on Crosby Beach could be a man I found this really weird tin of rations from World War II. Asher headlights twice. It's Jane Garvich.

It's upside down pineapple, beaming from my forehead. Pebbles, why is it that certain pebbles demand to be taken home? I don't know, but it's true. I mean, I just feel in this conversation, at every single step of it, we could have inserted the word man for pebble. It would still make sense. That's only your thinking. It's certainly not mine. I am a bit boggled by this.

Susie says she has listened to that book, Project Hail Mary, six times. Oh my gosh, the one that's 32 and a half hours long? And she's seen the film twice. I don't understand. And there's another popcorn. My enjoyment of the film only being slightly marred by spilling my entire box of popcorn on the floor. I mean, honestly, I've never got popcorn.

It's messy, it's pointless, it's tasteless. I've never got watching things on repeat. I can't do it. I don't get that either. And certainly listening to an audience. book. I mean, I could start Ken Follett's century trilogy all over again, but I'm not going to, because I can only ever do things like that once.

Anyway, Susie, I'm boggled, but thank you for that. Anonymous from Stenning. Now, we do hope we're coming to Stenning. Well, we think we are. In May. We had it in our diary, but it's yet TBC. But if we are coming to Stenning, hello Stenning. The crew of Artemis 2 must listen to us and think, I'll tell you what, they're hoping to be going to Stenning in May. Yeah. Our anonymous correspondent, where quite a few people have been before.

Scaffleders, yes. Oh yeah, I love this. My husband died nearly four years ago, which was very sad. Weeks of paperwork ensued as it does, including investigating his cause of death, juggling my cancer treatments around possible funeral dates, and not least completing the contract with started with large deposit already paid to complete the installation of 14 solar panels. You've had so much going on there

and I hope you're okay and we send thoughts about losing your husband. You go on to say, The Scaffolders Timetable brought a happy team to my door and roof three days before the funeral, full on sunny day, big heat. All I can say is that as I set upstairs in my office typing death notices

and unhold to bereavement departments of various banks, etc. The sweary bans and fulsome singing outside broadcasting to the village kept me on the verge of hysteria. But the best bit was glancing through the window to eyeball at very close quarters, the naked, ripped and tanned mid-torso of Steve as he grappled with those connectors and his special tool. Sorry to objectify you, lads, but it was very cheering, thanks. Well, we allow objectification when it's necessary. We do.

Absolutely is in your case. Very necessary indeed. And I'm sure that Steve and his special tool didn't realize the joy that they were giving and I'm sure that every single, what would you call it, the connector on a scaffold. What would you do, God, God, almighty, why are you asking me this? Because you ask me things all the time and I just look them up on Google. So I hope all of his what sits, his scaffolding connectors were very, very firm. William Boyd is one of our finest novelists, a good man in Africa, any human heart,

Armadillo, ordinary thunderstorms, 18 novels, plays, screenplays and journalism. and they sprawl luxuriantly over the last 40 years. And now Mr Boyd has brought us a new character to love, Gabriel Dax, the protagonist of his new trilogy, a reluctant spy, having been recruited from a life as a travel writer. Two books are out already, Gabriel's Moon and The Predicament. You're very welcome in our studio, William. How are you? Slightly harassed.

You've been over a couple of bridges. The world's worst taxi driver. That's, you know, I made it. Well, we're very grateful that you have. Tell us a little bit more about Gabriel. Well, I've written quite a few spy novels, including a James Bond continuation novel, and I'm sort of fascinated by that world.

And I finished a very long whole-life novel called The Romantic, which takes place over the 19th century. I thought, must do something a little bit more fun and kind of racy. And so I thought of this idea of taking a travel writer as a reluctant accidental spy. And I think quite a lot of travel writers or journalists are often recruited as stringers for MI6. So there's some precedent there.

And it allowed me to write about spying from the outside, as it were. I mean, I know nothing about how the bureaucracy and the organisation works. So my spies per force have to be like me, innocent and ignorant. And so Gabriel, this young man in his 30s, three or four books under his belt, is drawn into this world of espionage, much against his best intentions,

but actually begins to find out that he's got quite a talent for it. And so I thought I'd write a trilogy of novels about this young man, and the kind of narrative arc, the narrative drive runs through the three books. Number three will be out this September. Oh, thank goodness. And it's an exploration of what it must be like to have your life taken over, I suppose. Now, it strikes me, William Boyes, that maybe you've been tapped up to be a spy, because what a fantastic cover it would be to be the writer who's constantly investigating places where spying might happen.

Well, I haven't been tapped up. Wouldn't that be a great exclusive, Jane? Very bad spy, not remotely intrepid. A double bluffer, aren't it. Not remotely intrepid. But I have met a couple of spies in my time. But because I'm writing about a world that Gabriel knows nothing about, I'm free to invent my own agency within the agency.

I'm free to invent my handler for Gabriel, a mysterious alluring woman called Faith Green, and spin my own tail without having to make it like John McCarrie. or Graham Green or Ian Fleming, all writers who were actual spies and who knew how the place worked. As with so much of your writing, you set fiction against fact,

and this is against the background of real events. And in fact, Patrice Lumumba, a man who could have changed the direction of the DRC features, doesn't he? Yes, because I was born in Ghana, and I remember the name Patrice Lumumba, even as a child being bandied around because Kwame and Khruma, who was then present,

of Ghana was a great supporter of Lumumba. And when Lumumba was assassinated by the CIA, MI6 and the Belgian Secret Service, it was as if an African hero had been killed in 1961. And it was interesting, because all these novels are set in the 60s, the height of the Cold War, this is one of the first acts of wanton aggression, if you like, that the great powers took against a democratically elected African leader and decided to that they didn't want him around anymore, so they just had him assassinated. There are echoes today of that kind of adventurism, but in the 60s it was kind of off the dial,

not just in Africa, but in Central America in particular, that the CIA could more or less do what they wanted with the collusion of MI6 and the mafia, if required. And so I was looking at that, period of sort of unbridled United States hegemony when they just, if they didn't like somebody running a country, they organised a coup or had him assassinated. Sounds familiar. Yeah, I mean, as you've already alluded to, times haven't changed that much.

I mean, do you think that the CIA really has changed in the way that it operates? Well, I think it has. And I think that the difference between this now and the civil. In the 1960s, there were very disaffected senior members of the CIA who didn't like John Fitzgerald Kennedy or his brother, and particularly after the fiasco of the Bay of Pigs failed invasion of Cuba. So I think that there isn't that kind of rogue element within the organisation, but there was no doubt at the time there were people going their own way and making decisions that had nothing to do with the executive branch of the United States government.

Patrick Lumumba's case was in the news recently because finally somebody has actually been charged in connection with the assassination. I wonder what you made of that. What great timing. But it's interesting because the case is genuinely shocking. And this person who's been arrested is a 93-year-old ex-Belgian diplomat who was sort of involved in the arrest and then assassination and then physical disappearance of Lumumba. His body was dissolved in a vat of sulfuric acid. So there's nothing left of him. But it's a case that still sort of haunts people because it was so violent and so blatant.

And I think given the situation in Africa at the time with these countries just getting their independence to have somebody like Lumumba who was a key figure in African liberation, if you like, just removed still is very disturbing. And then you see things happening today which remind you that he who wields the biggest power often can exert the sway he wants to. Your spies in your trilogy here, they are men on ferries, their art collectors, they've got hats and umbrellas, they're dressed very well, they know how to behave in private members clubs. What do you think a modern spy looks like? Well, I think actually modern spying is quite boring because it's really just about electronic surveillance, I think, and whistleblowing now. That's one of the reasons why I liked setting this in the 1960s because it's analog spying. you want to make a phone call, you have to look for a phone box. You know, you might send somebody a postcard saying, can we meet on Monday at three o'clock in such and such a pub? So it was,

you know, I'm old enough to remember the 60s quite vividly. And it was a fun time travelling back to that era to see how you coped. I mean, obviously we did cope, but it's so different from today. And I think that gives the novels an extra frisson that you have no interest. You have no GPS satellite systems. There's no mobile phones. Life was simpler, but perhaps more complicated, paradoxically. Gabriel is a very decent travel writer, isn't he? And in fact, it made me smile a bit, the ease with which he can get a new book commission.

So he thinks, Rivers, I'm interested in Rivers. And his publisher says, that's a marvellous idea. Please do write that. How did you get published? Was it an easy journey for you? you started? No, not really. I mean, it was, I think it was easier when I was trying to get published than it is today, in fact. And there were more avenues for young writers to wander up. I mean, I wrote a lot of short stories that were published in various magazines. It's very hard to get a

short story published today. But I was picked out of the slush pile. I mean, I had about 10 stories published and I sent autonomously to two publishers this collection and wrote saying, by the way, I've written a novel featuring a character who appears in two of these stories into the blue. And I never forget the day I got the letter back from Hamish Hamilton, my then editor, Christopher Sinkley-Stefiel-Stevenson saying we'd like to publish your short stories, but we want to publish the novel first, if you don't mind. Of course, I hadn't written the novel. It was a lie. I've told more lies and said the manuscripts in a terrible state. I have to re-type it.

And I wrote my first novel, A Good Man in Africa, in a kind of white heat of panic and dynamism in about three months. And I did confess later to my publisher that it hadn't been written. But that was a stroke of luck. And everybody needs stroke of luck at the beginning of their careers especially. And so I got published. It was well reviewed. won a couple of prizes, it became a paperback, and here we are, 40-odd years later.

Do you still work to a very structured timetable? Because I've read that every book takes three years, and you are quite firm about what you do within that three-year period. Yes, I've sped up, actually, with this trilogy. We'll have written three novels in three years, which never again. But I think for a trilogy, it's quite a good idea because readers don't have to wait three or four years between books in order to find out what happens next. But usually it takes me, you know, two to three years to write a novel. And I plan it in great detail before I start writing. That

probably explains why it takes me longer. I don't start on page one until I know exactly how it's going to end. And then I write not fairly quickly, but not that fast. But I know my destination. and so I've never abandoned a novel and I just, you know, because I've planned it so in such detail if I'm in the middle of chapter 15, I know exactly how chapter 15 is going to end and how chapter 16 begins. So it's quite structured and dogged,

but it works for me, it's not for every novelist in the world, but it means, as I say, I've never abandoned a novel and all the novels I've written have turned out pretty much as I wanted them to be. What do you do about the feast and famine of the imagination, though? I mean, does yours just never have that? You're just on an even cure all the time. I think so.

I think it's, again, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't go on a course and learn how to boost your imagination. I think it's one of the things that makes you a novelist or makes you an artist. Your mind just works that way. And because I work in different media, film, television and theater, my mind is all the sort of bubbling. with ideas and I write them down in a notebook just in case I forget them and I get ideas for a short story or I'm commissioned by somebody to write five stories for the radio or something so I'm constantly busy in my mind is constantly thinking about stories and characters

and you know touch would no sign of it dying down or or giving up I think my my mind is functioning as well as it ever has been even if the old soft machine is beginning to show signs of wear and tear. Nonsense, Jane. Well, Claire just wants to say, thank you for writing any human heart. It's my favourite book of all time, profoundly moving. Thank you, Claire, for the message. In fact, we've got a colleague who's waiting outside

for a copy of Any Human Heart to be signed, haven't we? And David wants to ask, Gabriel Dax's fabulous creation. I'm loving the books, and that's 60s ambiance. Any plans for a screen adaptation? Yes, there are plans for a screen adaptation, for a movie, in fact, not TV. And I have already written the script of the film of Gabriel's Moon.

We're now entering the world of development hell whereby who's going to be in it, who's going to direct it, comes into play. But the books have been optioned and the script commissioned. So we've started so we'll finish, I hope. But I never get my hopes up in the very fickle world of the film industry. But we're under way. Do you have a, I mean, who would play, who is your Gabriel in your head? Or can't you tell us?

Well, I can. I'm probably putting a terrible hex on the whole process. But the person I'd really like to play Gabriel Daxe is a young English actor called Josh O'Connor. Oh, I know. And I think there's something about, I mean, I've been following his career. I never met him. That's a good choice. But it's something about his look and his kind of mercurial character that I think would work very

well but you know that's as I say I probably put a curse on it but he's his star is rising fast so he may he may be beyond us for all I know by the time we get around to casting and what about faith so faith is an essential figure yes I mean it's it's very difficult I mean I usually I mean it's unusual for me to have sort of come up with an idea for Gabriel because usually I never try to cast the movie as I'm writing it because inevitably you won't get that person you want. But we're kind of blessed with, she's got to be a sort of 40-something,

she's older than Gabriel, very cool, quite chic and controlling, and sort of almost a fam fatal, but we hope she won't be fatal for Gabriel. You do have such an eye for ladies' wear in these books. So the way that you describe Faith's outfits, I think is quite different from the way that you've described

what people wear in your other books. Is it to you? I think it's one of my sort of tips that I give younger. I think that to what you wear, what you eat, what you drive, what your house looks like, is very important in the kind of subliminal background textures of any novel. And I've often been rebuked for going into too much detail.

about three-course meals and so on. So I took this, you know, Faith's wardrobe, if you like, sort of from Ian Fleming, because when I wrote my James Bond novel, I reread all Fleming's novels. And Bond, unusually, you wouldn't believe this, was, it's actually very interested in couture and women's clothes, and he can tell if a skirt's been cut on the bias and what material it's made of. So I thought if it's good enough for James Bond, it's good enough for Gabriel Dax. But I think because he's a writer, anyway, he notices things. And he, because he's obsessed with Faith, and he's completely smitten by her. Every time they meet, he kind of checks her out. And that's involved with her hair, her Alice band and what she's wearing

that day, because she's quite fashionable. She's very fashionable. She's in 60s style. Yeah, I love the detail, absolutely love the detail of what she's. was wearing. Can we change tack, as we only have you for another couple of minutes. And this really is a gear change, so come with us. We're going from, I think, forth down to about first.

You spent half your year in the Doidoin. How are those border controls working for you? We were talking yesterday about the difficulty of actually getting in and out, certainly of some of the smaller airports in Europe, because people are doing the fingerprinting thing now.

So have you been very badly affected? at Breivla Gaiard Gateway to the Doordaigne Airport? Well, it's Bergerac Airport, in fact. But I have had my fingerprints taken at Bergerac Airport. No, the border controls haven't been so bad. What has been turning our life upside down is the expletive deleted Brexit rules where you're only allowed to stay 90 days out of six months.

Well, you know, we've been living in this house for 30 years. It's our home. but now we have to count the days that we're allowed to stay in it. And very often, in the summer, for example, you're there for two months or ten weeks, suddenly you've been there for 70 days and you're only allowed 90. You think, well, I wouldn't mind coming back for Christmas. So constantly irked, to put it mildly, about this Brexit rule that you're only allowed 90 days in every six months. If you've only been 40 days, you can't carry on your extra days to the next half.

So it's very rigid. And now we've got all these retinal recognition barometric devices. They know exactly how long it'll be in the country. You cannot fake it. And the last thing you'd want to do is to arrive at Bergerac Airport and be deported because you're on day 91. You know, so it's a constant reminder of how deeply stupid Brexit was and how it's impinged on our lives.

in a way we would never have imagined having lived in southwest France for 30-odd years. Jerry Halliwell was on the program and the podcast when her latest young adult fiction came out and she credits you with really putting her on that track. What did you do? Well, she's being very kind.

I met Jerry to some do in Buckingham Palace of all places and she told me she was writing this children's book and we got on well and she said, would you mind having a read of it? So I said, of course not. I'll happily read it.

And I read it and it seemed to me that there was one major change that she should do to make it work better. It sounds simple. You change the pronoun from first person to third person because it just changes any novel

if you make that shift. And she did it and I think it worked in a totally different way for her and the book was a huge success, and she sold it in America and everything like that. So it's very kind of her to credit me with a significant piece of advice in her writing life. But it was just, you know, I am an old pro now, and I've written all sorts of fiction,

and I know how the nuts and bolts and the gearings of fiction work, and it seemed to me that by making her novel first person, she was restricting the viewpoint too much and by going to the third, she could have her cake and eat it. Yeah. I mean, apart from anything else, William, it does prove that she wrote the book herself and actually an awful lot of people who are as famous

as she is in a different lane have been gifted publishing deals for books that actually they haven't written themselves. No, she's a bona fide author, Jerry, you know, absolutely hardworking. She's writing more and more, I think. So, yes, true. There are ghosts out there that will help celebrities

come up with. a quote-unquote novel but she's the real deal. When is the third in the trilogy out? It's called Cold Sunset and it's coming out on the third of September. So not far off, cover is done. Plans are afoot and I will write more Gabriel Dax novels down the line I think. It's too good a character to stop with. And we're in at 1964, fair to say, so, you know, I've got the whole of the 60s,

the 70s, so it might keep me going in my dotage. Yeah, well, if you got up to the present day, there's enough to keep you busy for about another 150 years. So many people want to say hello to you and they want to say thank you. Christine says I was lucky enough to meet William Boyd at a book signing in Oxford's Blackwells at about 1990. I think he signed my book, An Ice Cream War, Any Human Heart, is one of my husband's favourite books too.

It's lovely to see you, William. Thank you very much, indeed, for running back over London Bridge in order to to make the interview on time. So the predicament is out now and we shall look forward to the third book in the Gabriel Dax series in September. Happy Easter to you. Thank you very much. William Boyd. Very happy Easter. How do you eat yours? Have a happy Easter, everybody. And we are back on, oh, actually, a week on Monday. So it's Monday the 14th. We're back in your ears and clogging up your life generally. So plenty of time to get in an email at Jane and Fee at times.com. Radio. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

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