Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The Off Air Military Unit (with Jesse Armstrong)

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Jane M is off on a Challenge Anneka-style mission — we hope to see her tomorrow, but who knows... Before that, Jane M and Fi chat jobs in another life, public transport, and the original Jane. Plus, screenwriter Jesse Armstrong — known for Succession and Peep Show — discusses his latest film 'Mountainhead', based on a group of billionaire friends who meet at an alpine retreat during an international crisis. If you want to contribute to our playlist, you can do that here: Off Air with Jane & Fi: Official Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=9QZ7asvjQv2Zj4yaqP2P1QIf you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Can I just say those are two separate events. It's not Graham Brady talking about his time on Women's Day. Just in case people thought I've missed the event of the century. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Thomas Fudge's Biscuits. We've got a bit of a reputation, haven't we, Jane? Our desk here at Times Towers is pretty famous for having the most delicious sweet treats in the office. Yep. Gu guilty as charged. But we're not into any old treats, no sir.

Only the most elevated biscuit makes the grade. Because we're so classy. May we introduce you to Thomas Fudges, born from the expert British craftsmanship of inventive Dorset bakers in 1916. Thomas Fudges' Florentines are an indulgent blend of Moorish caramel, exquisite almonds and luscious fruits draped in silky smooth Belgian chocolate.

You've said a few key words there Fee. Exquisite, Moorish, exactly the way my colleagues would describe me I'm sure. Did you say sophisticated? I didn't but I can. Just like the biscuits, you're very sophisticated darling. And like you Thomas Fudgers believes that indulgence is an art form and it should be done properly or not at all, Jane. I concur. Thomas Fudges, hats off to remarkable biscuits. And we're on. And we're on and welcome. It feels like a Tuesday but it's Wednesday and that's the Bank Holiday weekend curse for you, isn't it?

Yeah. And with you, what do your Fridays feel like? What? In anyone's Bank Holiday weekend. In your life? In my weekend, Friday's a secret. I cannot talk about what happens on Friday. Okay, yeah. And it will remain secret forever. Do you know what? Fridays are glorious. I've never... Actually, I have had one job before where I had a three-day weekend, but that's because I was doing a late-night show that went into Friday. And in the funny BBC way, they have... Actually, lots of workplaces have it don't they, that after

a certain number of shifts you can't work for a certain number of hours. So I think because the late night show crunched into Friday morning it counted as working on a Friday. Brilliant. So that was glorious. But aside from that I've never had a job where it's four days on, three days off and it is a wonderful thing. And please don't anybody ever think that I don't appreciate that. It's not that I don't love my job because I already do love my job but the air smells sweeter on a Friday.

You know the atmospheric pressure is better for things just works. What about you? Well, being a, you know, up and comer, I work about eight days a week, don't I? So, yes, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I've been you and I hear you and I admire you. Everybody hears me, I'm always on air. Yeah, but that is the way to do it in radio. You just have to be available for everybody's fill in, in order to do your 10,000 hours. And I really don't mind that, actually. I really don't mind it. It's lovely getting the experience of sort of dotting around and doing different things. And yeah, I'm really lucky because I love all the things I do. Yeah, the fact that I get to, you know, three floors down,

work on an incredible magazine, do some podcasts for the people who sit two desks away whenever they, you know, don't have another person to do some wanging on, roll up here, do this with you, do some stuff live on air. I'm very lucky. I'm very, very lucky. We're lucky to be in work. I often feel that. But I really feel, you know, I think as journalists, we are really lucky to be in work because newsrooms are just being sliced. If you look at what happened to ITV, what was it? 200 jobs went shkshkshkshk. So I always count my lucky stars. And TV at the moment as well. TV's really struggling.

Yes, and I think it's just gone really, hasn't it? It's not a blip in television. It won't ever come back because the short form clip is what we live for, Jane. And I don't know about you, but I've always wanted to exist in under 28 seconds. It's a decent amount of time. Here's a question for you. What job or career do you think you would have been really, really shite at? Oh God, I mean, how long have you got? I think I'd be absolutely appalling at most things. I'm not very patient, so you know any kind of

caring profession. Oh God, I'd be absolutely terrible at it. I don't like things where I'm not the centre of attention. So anything remotely about anyone else really. I did a little bit of teaching. So my parents are both teachers and very good teachers at that. And you know, and I do know, I went to a school that sort of really prioritized, which I think is a really positive thing, kind of prioritize community and giving back. And so lots of my friends went into medicine and teaching and public sector jobs. I used to do some teaching in Bryson actually, my brother was at Sussex University, I used to go there on my holidays and teach English to foreign kids. I just taught them loads of swear words and then just, you know,

took them out. It's not for me. This is absolutely shocking stuff. I'm really horrified. At least I know myself. Yes, well that's the thing isn't it? And how can you know yourself when you're very, very young and are expected to choose your A-level subjects and degrees and all of that kind of stuff? Because you really don't.

I often think that so much of work is about the other things as well. It's about whether or not you actually want to go to an office, whether or not you want to or are capable of doing something between nine to five. You know, lots of people aren't. Or you you want to or are capable of doing something between nine to five. Lots of people aren't, or you just want to be outdoors more, or you don't want to work amongst a throng of people. All of those things, you don't know at all. What you wear to work is quite important. Some people love putting on a uniform, don't they?

And other people, that would be hell, whatever the work would be once you got there. I think it would depend on the uniform for me. Yes, I quite like to wear a uniform just to make it easier actually in the morning. Do you think we could start that here at Times Radio? For sure. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah, get some onesies. That would be so funny. Get some little onesies for all of us. And especially if we didn't tell anybody else in the building what we were doing or any of the audience and it just crept up on them that actually we were a military unit. Do you know what, on the subject of jobs and interviews and stuff, we were talking about this in an off air conversation, but in a normal world conversation about the best and worst of interviews that

we'd had. Because actually I've had very few interviews in my lifetime and I bet it's the same for you because your work is what people know and hear so they don't really want to meet you and put you through your paces. They're taking whatever you know. And it used to be in journalism that you just went for a chat with someone. Yes. You didn't, there was no formal interview process. This is the first job I've ever had where I've actually submitted a CV where anyone's asked me for my university degree, you know, I've had a formal interview, you

just go for a checklist. Or send some pieces in. In our day we'd send a demo tape. Yeah. Yeah, and that would be it. But we were talking about interviews because obviously in other professions you have to go through so many of them and jump through all those hurdles. And somebody said that the best question that they'd ever been told by somebody to ask the interviewee in an interview is why wouldn't I get this job? Isn't that clever? Oh that's really clever.

So when people chuck it back at you, you know, is there anything you'd like to ask us? If you ask them why you wouldn't get it, actually you'll leave with some knowledge even if you don't get the job. I just pass that on because I'm very generous. Like that. I've left my coffee outside. Can you do a long email while I just pop outside? Yeah, that's fine. I thought you were going to ask me to go and get it. I'm nearer the doors than you. I would go and get it for you. No, I'm not, Jane. Oh, and which I'll find there's actually a nice email about the original Jane. I'll

find that one while you're... There we go. it was quite near the top. Right, I'll start this while she's on her way back in. This is from Leslie. Hello Leslie. Leslie says, hi all and especially original Jane. She is original isn't she? She is. She is an original. While Fian's supply teacher Jane are holding the fort, I've come to the Hay Festival, being big and brave all on my own to see original Jane interview Graham Brady and celebrate that little Radio 4 show she used to present. The very lovely Ms Garvey was minding her own business taking the festival. Oh, you're pausing me. Can I just say those are two separate events. It's not Graham Brady talking about his time

on Women's Day. Just in case people thought I've missed the event of the century. So Graham Brady MP, Cherokee, 19, 22 commission. And celebrate that little Radio 4 show. Sorry, thank you for that. I didn't hourly punctuate. Well, if you could in future please. I will, I'll do my best. I'll start again with the second paragraph. The very lovely Ms Garvey was minding her own business, taking in the festival, when I'm afraid I had a total fangirl moment and couldn't resist saying hello. Jane, you were lovely, thank you.

You brilliantly handled the weird situation where I feel I know little about you, and in my head, you, Fee and I, spend a lot of quality time chatting about everything and anything, from the banal to the vitally important. But you have absolutely no idea who the heck I am. Thank you, Jane, you made my day. And then Leslie goes on to say having moved

around the country a lot and devoted over a decade to building a hospitality business working ridiculous and anti-social hours. I don't have a wide circle of friends and your podcast fills a big gap. Well thank you Leslie and I'm very glad that you're with our Jane, the other Jane, original Jane at the Hay Festival. Hope you're having a lovely time altogether. So just to recap, and I concur with all of that, Jane Garvey is back on Monday, Jamil Kerens is here for today and tomorrow. I'm currently doing the afternoon show with Martha Lone Fox. She will

crop up in the interview today, which you're just about to hear, which is with Jessie Armstrong. More than crop up, so it'll be Martha Lone Fox doing that interview. So there'll be a small exam on all of that later and we expect you to be able to show your workings in the margin. And a portrait in a pear tree. Exactly. Thank you for all of your lovely TV recommendations. Now this one, do you know what, this one popped up on my Netflix and I'm saving it for the weekend for that beautiful beautiful Friday feeling. Lucy says, have you seen the short Netflix documentary The Quilters? It shows maximum security inmates who volunteer to make quilts for children in foster care. It's really quite

remarkable how quilting seems to give them a passion and purpose, even when facing a very long remaining prison term. And it seems to bring a diverse group of men together and motivates them to model good behaviour as having no violations is a prerequisite to participation. Finally, they get letters and photos from the children who receive them, which gives them pride and self-worth. Their work is stunning, it nearly convinced me that as inept as I am with craft, I could give it a go. On a more serious note, the documentary does leave viewers wondering at the power of restorative justice projects like this in terms of recidivism. I love that word, recidivism.

I like the word, not the thing. Yes, but it doesn't tackle how a victim of their crimes might feel about them making quilts for children and perhaps having their time inside pass a little easier. It's a good point to make, Lucy. That sounds absolutely cracking, so I will watch that over the weekend. And another recommendation comes in from Gail, who suggests watching The Last Anniversary.

It's an adaptation of Leanne Moriarty's novel and is produced by Nicole Kidman. It's set in Australia, has a strong female cast. It's on the iPlayer, but also you can watch it on BBC One on a Saturday night. Gail binged the whole series over the bank holiday weekend. Dramatic change in the weather left me in front of the telly. Gail, there's no need to even put up an excuse. No, no better place to be.

Woman after my own heart. Just on that note of prisoners and quilting but also linking what you're saying about jobs, so I don't know if I've told you this before but one of the few other things I wanted to do, oh and I know, never worry about it, never repeat, never worry about it, never repeat, sweet Jesus there's a lot of it on this podcast, go for it. One of the few other things that I've really always wanted to do is be a prison governor. I spent my gap year working in strange ways and I've been to a lot of prisons and I really believe in the power of great governors to change the experiences of prisoners and I met some amazing ones.

So when one of my previous newspapers closed in 2009 in the recession, I applied for the government's fast track civil service prison governor scheme and I failed my online mathematical reasoning test quite spectacularly. Yeah, I couldn't even understand the questions. I'd done loads and loads of the practice ones, which had gone okay. And then the actual exam was like a 25 minute timed online mathematical reasoning test and I just couldn't understand the questions. Do you think that you would have been able to do the job without the mathematical skills? Yeah, yeah I think maybe the people skills might have been a little bit more important than the online mathematical reasoning thing but I think what the

thing is when they do those things they try, know, your application shows a lot of what you are good at and they try to find the things you're not good at, which clearly for me was that. Anyway, it all worked out. I moved to New York instead, had a wonderful decade and came back here. But it is still a thing that, you know, I'm minded to think I would like to be more involved with in some way because I really do believe in restorative justice in a huge way. I've written lots of things about it and I believe it does help and I'm sort of, you know, it's such a complicated topic. I don't want to take this in a dark direction but there was the news last week about the government proposing doing chemical castration for sex offenders,

which I think is just a really difficult topic because it has been proven that you can't rehabilitate sex offenders. But if you can't rehabilitate someone or at least give them the chance to try to be rehabilitated, sort of what are you doing to people? You know, I just think the whole topic is really interesting because also, you know, nobody wants to live next door to a sex offender. No one wants to, you know, have a sex offender live next door to a school. So, you know, what do we do with people? You know, do we just do we just chuck people away?

Do we commit them to life in prison, which is also a terrible waste of a life that might it might have some purpose and some use. But if you are going to release someone who at the back of your mind or even statistically you believe will re-offend, then isn't it the job of society to protect people? I think one of the nuances of that whole piece about chemical castration was there was quite an important caveat about prisoners who wanted it being allowed to have it. And you know so it's not... And I do know that many do. Many do. You know it's not the case that men and they are 99% men don't want to change. They want to stop thoughts, they want to stop the process.

So you know there is quite a large contingent of our prison population who would be willing to have that done. But that's very different to forced compulsory chemical castration, which is one of the things that was being proposed. Yes, very different. But also the very term as well, you're talking about the use of drugs, you're not talking about a surgical operation. So, you know, I think the castration always rings absolutely massively. It feels very medieval. Yes, yeah, but it is an incredibly, incredibly difficult topic.

We don't talk about it enough. We park it away in the very, very dark place. Absolutely, we don't like to talk about it. It's a horrible thought. Actually, I think if you start delving into the statistics around it you realize just how common it is. I mean if you look at the direction of an algorithm in porn you can see how common it is. So I'm with you on that one sister. Well look, so you've got lots of other jobs that you could have done, lots of other things that you might like to have turned your attention to. You know the

one thing I should never be allowed to do? I mustn't be allowed to be a house builder, Jane. I'll just leave that there. I think you'd be quicker than my parents builder at the moment. No, it's just one of those things. I look at people who build houses and I'm just so, so full of admiration. I just think, how do you manage to do that? How is every brick in the right place?

I know sometimes it's not, but largely it is. And just whenever I'm walking around London I think how did you manage? How did they build St Paul's Cathedral without cranes, without electricity, without any of the tile cutters that tend to be used on a bank holiday in residential areas? It's just... Colosseum. It's extraordinary. What? It's just extraordinary. Yeah. And most of us, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't even build a porch on a house, Jane. So I struggled to build a shoe rack that I bought from the

Fiatom company. I had to wait till my dad came to stay to get him to do it. It's quite a legendary point of difference between myself and my sister, who's very, very practical. And she's really, really good at stuff like that and she just quite happily took to doing her own carpentry when she was a student and was building things for her house and she came round to a flat I was living in once and I had this coffee table in front of the sofa which she just very gently placed a glass down on and the whole thing collapsed and she said what's happened there and she picked it up and looked over and I'd superglued four pegs onto the bottom of a plank of wood and thought that that would hold as a coffee table. And obviously it didn't. But I'd like to get

I'd like to get better at stuff like that. I could send you a little carpentry course, an adult carpentry course, giving up your seat which we were discussing yesterday. Yes. Because you'd been talking about it last week, I think maybe on the podcast about, you know, you'd taken a picture of someone hadn't you? I've got photographs to post. You've taken a photograph of just a full carriage with children and old people, children sitting down, old people standing up. And then we had a lovely email yesterday from a lady in Australia who's a tour guide, who takes lots of retired Americans around. She was just talking about how proud she is as a Brit living in Australia that everyone offers their seat in Australia, young people.

Anyway, we've had quite a lot of response to the subject and from a place of deep bias, I'm going to start with this one, from Catherine who says, I'm pleased to report on a recent visit to Sheffield. Hooray! To watch the ballet, we were returning to the car via tram. That's the super tram for anyone who hasn't been to Sheffield. I was with two older friends, one of whom uses a stick. On alighting the tram, full of young people returning from college, several immediately got up to offer my friends their seat. Also on the

way in, a local lady assisted us on the tram stop we needed and then walked us to the theatre. Yorkshire hospitality at its best. Well I think... Hooray for Sheffield, well done, 10 points to Hufflepuff. I think it's all going to show that it's very much a London tube problem and it probably is. Do you know, it's a London problem, not a London tube problem. About London where we... People are a bit haggie. We've lost our manners.

I know. Yeah, I agree. We're in our own little world and it is not a good thing. I want to chuck this one out there because Jean I think this might be a rich seam following on from the discussion on ensuites. Can anyone explain the fashion for open plan living rooms? I've seen lots of people on house renovation programs, house porn, being thrilled when many of the internal walls of their living areas have been demolished and huge kitchen islands have been installed. I'd like a follow-up programme showing how they feel a year afterwards.

Are they tired of dirty saucepans and dishes being on full view while they're eating? Do they all enjoy being together while one person chooses a TV programme they can't stand? How much fun is it when children bring friends over or teenagers who find parents embarrassing to the parents have to go to their own room? Rant over, I'll be really interested to know. Well, so would I, Jean. I think that is a very, very fantastic programme idea which goes in the same box as the programme that Channel 4 one day have to make, which is what it's like living next door to someone

who does a grand design this world. Because I think there are lots of people, next door neighbours, who have just spent four years absolutely screaming and formulating really nasty painful ways for their new neighbours to meet their grand design ends. So I'm with you. We don't have a very open plan. I've got a galley kitchen, which I've always really, really enjoyed disappearing into, Jane. And actually, especially when the kiddies were a little bit younger,

they could be watching TV around the corner and I could go off and make tea on my own and listen to a little bit of the radio on my own. And I really, I loved that wall. I absolutely loved that wall. Yeah, no, I do hear you. That wall was my friend. I hear you. I really like my flat in Brighton. I like it enormously. The only thing I would really change is I would quite like an open plan kitchen dining thing. So that when I have all my mates around I don't miss out on the really good conversation

while I'm cluttering about with pans in and out. Because I sort of have to go back in and then they're all laughing about something that I've just missed. Yeah, that is frustrating. Yeah. Well, get Kirsty all sucked round and she'll knock a great big hole. On a positive note, by the way, can I read this one out? Yes, you may. On the move south.

This is from Marie. Greetings Fiann Jane. Listening to your musings on moving prompted me to share a few thoughts. Moving into our third chapter, not fully retiring but scaling back, we have decided that London is where we want to be spending our twilight years because you were saying you might not. We've been out of London now for 33 years and the clock has definitely come full circle. It's fast approaching five to the hour and I can hardly contain my excitement says Marie. In a nutshell the draw of London boils down to things like transport, parks, walks, cafes, galleries, people watching, restaurants, farmers markets, pubs, theatres, concerts etc and hospitals. At the moment we spend half our time there, I think she means London not the hospital, and we'll move back completely in a few years when we stop work altogether. I know it's not for everyone and there are many truly annoying things about it,

as we were just saying, people don't stand up for you to sit down on the juke, but on balance I prefer the idea of growing old there as opposed to where we live now, which has the largest proportion of retired people in the UK. I don't know where that is. Let's try and find out. It can be quite depressing and actually quite lonely if you're curious and you still have a zest for life as we do. Thank you, Marie. Interesting one. I do think there has been evidence and I can't quote it because I didn't look it up but I think there has been evidence that shows that living in cities when you're older does help you live longer and sort

of stay more active because you're more engaged with things. It's a bit like sort of physical Sudoku or something. You know, you're surrounded by people, you know, it keeps you a little bit younger and a little bit longer. And I take your point about hospitals as well. I think if you can factor in that it's very wise. One of the attractions of coming to work here was as one of London's finest teaching hospitals just next door. Over the road. Yeah. When I first came here to look around I thought, that's lovely loo's, very nice canteen, the teams seem lovely and a

teaching hospital on the doorstep, there was a lot of boxes ticked. Yeah, should you have a little bit of a fall on the way to get your lunch? Exactly. You can go get self-sorted. Exactly. And if you're going to fall there's a really fancy private one just underneath as well. It's very reassuring. Jane, it's been lovely. We're going to head into the guest and you've got to catch a Eurostar. You're going back to Berlin. Not quite. I'm just doing a little challenge, Annika, race to the French Open for the night.

So I'm getting a two o'clock Eurostar, going to an evening game at Roland Garros getting back on the train tomorrow at nine o'clock French time at eight o'clock UK time to be back here and record with you tomorrow. What could possibly go wrong? Who are you seeing? Do you know? I don't know yet. I've been so busy I haven't had time to actually look at who's playing later. Okay. Well, that'll be amazing. Fantastic. I've got a little outfit, I've got a different outfit to put on on the train. Are you playing? Well that'll be amazing. Fantastic. I've got a little outfit, I've got a different outfit to put on on the train. Are you playing?

Well, I'm sort of dressing like I'm playing. Wow. Themed outfit. If you'd see my overalls though you would definitely not think that. Roland Garros Seniors featuring Jane Will Garros. Jamal. Yeah. Well, have a lovely time. Okay, so do we have back up for tomorrow Eve in case this just goes terribly wrong? Oh come on, let's just wing it. Everything will be fine. Okay, well Tom Whipple's for tomorrow Eve in case this just goes terrible? Oh, come on. Let's just wing it

Everything be fine. Okay. Come on guys. Tom Whipple's on standby, isn't he? Here's the guest Jesse Armstrong is the award-winning screenwriter behind some of your favorite shows Succession peep show the thick of it fresh meat. What a selection and now he's turned his attention to the billionaire tech bro So I hope we've now clarified exactly what that means the billionaire tech bro, so I hope we've now clarified exactly what that means. His new film, Mountainhead, is a satirical comedy centred around four tycoons gathered in an uber swanky mountaintop lodge in Utah for a poker weekend, as the world descends into political and economic chaos around them. Set in a world where social media has overtaken journalism and run amok, it asks the not- far-fetched question of what if the likes

of Musk and Zuckerberg really did rule the world? I was lucky enough to speak to Jesse earlier and started by asking what fascinates him about this intersection of wealth and human behaviour. Yeah, I guess it's just the power. You know, that was what I was interested in in succession was media power, in that case, really, older media power. And this, the money for me, I think, is subsidiary in terms of the interest. That's just the setting. It's the power that these people have.

And in succession, it was old media power. And in this, it's tech power. And is this because you think that right now, this power is completely out of control? I know you made the film, I think, in record time and it has a real sense of urgency through it. Is that because you think the situation is urgent? Well, no, not in the sense that the film will do anything, I don't suppose will do anything to, you know, impact like the development of our tech is in the world. It just felt

very present to me and like as a creative impulse, I wanted to try and I wanted the audience who watched it to be in a similar sort of time bubble as I was when I was writing it because even though I think the significance of tech is gonna be around evidently for the rest of our lives this particular moment i don't know how it will feel in another year maybe we're gonna live in a in a in a churning. Developing feeling of imminent crisis forever that might be the way we're destined to live our lives, but it might change. And so I think I wanted to be in the same mind space as the audience might be. So that's interesting that you don't necessarily think that you're trying to impact action if I'm understanding you. But I watched it differently. It felt to me as though it was trying to say, look, look what's happening. And even though it's a character study, you've got these four tech billionaires, one is not a billionaire much to his chagrin, you've

got them trapped in the mountain retreat and the world is collapsing around them as a new piece of software has been released that one of them has developed. It felt to me like you were saying, look guys, this is kind of what happening and even worse, these are the characters as I see them. Yeah, I think that's true I guess I've just I've you know been involved with satirical work before from the thick of it to succession itself and and and I know that if

you think you're going to impact the world very directly or Or that you are going to make people think about things the same way that you do, well, A, that's not a good creative aim to begin with and B, you'll definitely be unsuccessful because guess what? People are weird, various and delightfully take completely different things from the work that you do than that which you might have expected. So I just mean that if you go into the world of like writing things about the real world or what you might call satire with the aim of affecting the world, there's not a much of a quicker route to disappointment. So it's more of a character interest, is it, for you? Do you think that the tech,

brogligopio or whatever the latest way of categorizing this, do you think that they have a certain set of characteristics that fascinate you? Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes. They've got a tone of voice. I think it was the tone of voice that attracted me that made it sort of an un something I couldn't not write. I'd got to know about, I'd read a bunch about the tech world and then I started listening to the, you know, Ted talks and podcasts, which which are a bit of a rolling carousel of where where these were a lot of tech figures appear famous and less famous. And there's a, you know, there's some tremendously bitter

personal rivalries and multiple different ways of seeing the world. But there's And there's a, you know, there's some tremendously bitter personal rivalries and multiple different ways of seeing the world. But there's a quite a similar tone of voice, which maybe just comes out of their success, which is undeniable and power, which is undeniable, but it is a bit scary and also quite funny. And so I guess that I would agree with you. I think I should reveal my conflict of interest at this point, Jesse. I was on the board of Twitter for a very long time, particularly over the last kind of three years when we were selling it to Elon. So I feel like I was watching this through the lens of having a small understanding of some of

this world, not a world I am in. And I particularly related to how much I believe these guys really think they could redesign anything better. Countries, no problem. Somebody in your drama takes on Argentina with kind of remarkable kind of nonchalance to redesign Argentina. And that's something I really related to, this notion that everything could be reduced to ones and noughts and redesigned through the lens of technology. Is that something that you kind of discovered in your journey through the podcasts and the TED Talks? Yeah, and obviously I was aware of your hinterland in this world, and so I don't want to turn it into a reverse interview,

but I'm obviously very intrigued by you, what you made of it and how you think it maps on to the characters who you know and certainly even the ones you don't know personally are aware of. But yeah, I think that, you know, there's a tone of, as you will know, you need confidence in to be successful in all business and tech business and confidence at a certain point along its line of balance turns into arrogance. And that's also quite scary and quite funny. And that's the tone of voice maybe I was tuning into. Well, I think it's bang on. And I would say it then quickly turns to hubris after that, of course. I will just give you a couple of anecdotes, because you might enjoy them.

The Twitter board meetings would basically happen standing up, because Jack Dorsey did not like sitting down, the founder of Twitter. And normally, you might have a business lunch with people and get to know your fellow board directors. No, no, no, not for Jack, because he only eats one meal a day. So he would just stand drinking a really unappealing-looking

green juice, where we would be trying to have a normal bit of social interaction. I'm being slightly mean and don't even start me on Elon. We have to have a separate side chat about that I think Jesse. Okay, good, well I'm very much up to that. Fantastic. I think what I really admire about your writing is that you move so incredibly quickly between biting, biting comedy and then something that literally makes you want to scream or cry. Have you

always enjoyed that, that kind of shift between the ability to make something very funny and then move it so quickly into something pretty dark? Yeah, I mean, you can post rationalize sort of what you do and how you do it. I just don't know if that's how I write. And I guess it's how I see the world or how it comes out in writing. But I do think, you know, just even as you essay very briefly, you know, a couple of visions of the tech world, usually in my experience in life like tragedy, there's usually humor either has just been in the room right before or will enter quickly after the tragedy, right?

And if you're, if you can see them both, it's, I think, I think, honestly, I just think it gives you a better sense of the world and the, and the kind of one is James Bond, right? Where these people are villains and sort of omnipotent until they get taken down by our savior. I don't believe in that, nor do I believe entirely in sort of, you know, Austin Powers villain who's utterly ludicrous. I think the scary thing is these people are both,

they're a bit ludicrous and a bit unbelievably powerful. Do you think that the tech world is something you're going to double click on to use their language and write more about? You've kind of the media world, clearly that's declining, being eaten by the technology world. Where next? Yeah, I don't think so. I think, you know, this is in some ways a narrower piece with a sort of more defined target.

And I was pleased to write about it partly because it is so present, the fears and anxieties are so present in lots of our heads that it was nice to have some way of exorcising them. I don't know if I've got a ton more to say about these people. So right now I wouldn't anticipate returning, but I'd

never say never because you never know. And will this world continue to be dominant in our lives? Yes. And I am interested in the forces that shape the way that most people experience the world. So maybe I will find myself coming back to it. Have you been following much of the copyright AI, copyright discussions that have been going on in the UK? Not closely, not closely. I'm aware of the debate and I'm fascinated to, yeah, have you got a view? No, I'm just interested in whether or not you feel it very kind of But have you got a view? No, I'm just interested in whether or not you feel it very kind of hyper, hyper kind of red alert in your business, in your industry,

or if it's something you personally feel hyper anxious about. No, I feel for some subsequent generations of writers, I feel, you know, it'll be more pressing in that in those terms. Yeah, I have a bit of a sort of prideful, prideful potential anger about one's stuff being used to train the large language models, the bolt that horses bolted, it would obviously given the one thing we know about the large language models and AI is they could probably untangle that mess and send some residual checks to all the people's who work whose work they've stolen to train their models. I don't suppose that will be high on their agenda for the processing power of the data centers, but

it might be nice. I think it would be extremely surprising if they sent a check, Jessie. I can imagine them sending you a piece of cryptocurrency or perhaps a stable coin, but I think a check you might be waiting a super long time for that one. As long as it isn't a mean coin, all the rest will be accepted. I'm going to take Trump coin, don't fancy that. I'll take it for the next two and a half years. You are a fantastic example of kind of British soft power, I would argue. You've had this stellar career in the UK and then translated it across the Atlantic, which is no mean feat. Where do

you like working the most? That's a great question. I like working, I like being near home. Where is home? So I prefer to be in the UK. Having said that, I did, there is something, I've worked a lot in the US now and there is something a little bit cleansing about like, okay, I go to America and then I go to work and being, when you're, you must have had this in business as well, being totally immersed in something like these tech guys are mostly guys as you know, you must have had this in business as well, being totally immersed in something, like these tech guys are mostly guys as you know, there is something that's quite good about total focus, but it's not a way to live your life is it? No, do you, because the thing that often I'm sure as you know gets said about the tech

sector here is that it's just sort of somewhat less risk taking, that there's just not the same appetite and ambition. I have mixed views about that. I think it's complicated. Do you perceive the same in your own industry? Is that something you could say would be true? Or do you think? No, I don't think it is. You know, nowhere seems to be able to do tech like America, do they? And I'm sure you've got much better sense of precisely the different factors that lead into that. I'd say that the luckily our creative and certainly drama and comedy are vibrant enough at this moment still for us to do, you know, just as we've seen like, I've just been watching, catching up with stuff, well, I've been away, Adolescents,

and Jeff Pope's, Sean Shelderman, The Suspect, you know, we're still writing and doing, those are both pretty serious dramas, but in comedy and drama, we can do formally interesting stuff and amongst the best stuff in the world. And, you know, know eventually if we chip away at theatre and the BBC and Channel 4 we may eventually manage to screw that up but those

are pretty good breeding grounds for talent still in this country at the moment. Oh that's an important message. Just one last question for me if I can. So I can helicopter you in to Mountainhead to be with those four men for 24 hours. Would you take it? Would you take the pill? Oh my god, I'd be equally as socially awkward as them but I wouldn't know what to say. I'll come with you. How about that? I'll come with you. If you'd come with me, I would definitely go for the material and we'd both come away with rich notebooks, no doubt. Oh yeah, traumatised but full of content. Jesse Armstrong in conversation with Martha Lane Fox. So if you want to have a listen to the live show, which is

where that was taken from, we are on air every afternoon, you can get it on the Time's app, it is 2 till 4. Jane Mulcairons will be back from Roland Garros, I'm very envious. I watched a little bit of Roland Garros at the weekend and I just could get very very addicted to the tennis tour if I was not in need of paying off the mortgage type work. Yeah, so good. Good on you, good on you. So hopefully we'll see you tomorrow. We'll be back with the full report. To everybody else, have a very lovely evening, goodbye. ["The Last Supper"]

Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.