Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The Twilight Years (with Tim Spector)

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Down your tools and give this podcast your FULL ATTENTION! Jane and Fi chat real tennis, Bruce Forsyth's ghost, house husbands, and gravestones for pets. Plus, co-founder of ZOE and gut health guru Tim Spector discusses his new book 'Ferment'. We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

He's a big yoghurt fan, isn't he? And I do... Show my wide knowledge of the life and times of Tim Specter. You know what? If on the live show, you can introduce our main guest as being... Someone who knows about yoga. Being the UK's leading yoghut man, Tim Spector. I will buy your lunch.

I'm Adam Vaughn, Environment Editor at the Times. And in Planet Hope, we meet the people tackling our biggest environmental and scientific challenges, from saving penguins in Patagonia to helping people of paralysis to move again. These are stories of science, courage and hope. Follow Planet Hope wherever you get your podcasts. Planet Hope is brought to you by the Times in paid partnership with Rolex and its perpetual Planet Initiative.

There are only about seven courts, aren't there, in the whole of the country, two of them are in palaces. You just join us as we're talking about real tennis. We're tennis and lacrosse as the podcast that we should have done. How many downloads would we have achieved with a podcast, a full-bodied podcast about real tennis? I remember some of we interviewed. I think it may even have been.

Judy Murray, said that paddle, paddle, paddell, is the kind of mini and the people's version of real tennis. Oh, is it? Okay. Because doesn't real tennis have the same kind of thing where you could knock the ball against a wall and lots of other things? It's not like normal tenets. I think that's the point of paddle, isn't it?

No, I think it's just smaller courts, bigger bats, and you can serve underarm. You can hit the wall. You can hit the wall in paddle. But I thought they'd play paddle outside. They do, but that's why you have a court with glass walls or big perspex walls. So you can't play paddle in the park? No.

You have to have a court erected. Oh, I see. Well, that doesn't exactly make it democratic, does it? You have to go to a special place. But it seems to be, doesn't it? Discuss. I've seen a temporary paddle court in one of our local parks.

And it's a bit like a kind of it's like one of those blow-up soft play things it's just got massive inflated walls and you can just pop in there and have a paddle tryout session I thought it looked very inviting just not for me inviting some people well of course it would be just the thing

after you've eaten a swan in the park you can go and do that can't you now our swans are they under threat oh god do me a bloody favour Nigel Farage claimed in an interview that swans might be being eaten And did he actually say that they were being eaten? He said he'd heard that they were.

Right. I'm much more interested in this. A little snippet from today's newspaper. Bruce Forsyth's Ghost is... We're heading to spooky time again, everybody. Bruce Forsyth's Ghost, Fee, is stalking the London Palladium. It isn't really. But apparently it's telling guests.

Nice to see you, to see you nice. It isn't. So what is? Well, it's not. It's just a load of nonsense. But why has somebody heard to see you nice, nice to see you? The TV entertainers' ashes were laid to rest under the stage in 2017. I didn't know that.

Lovely place to be. Singer and paranormal expert Brocard claimed she heard his catchphrase while interviewing magicians Penn Gillette and Piff the Magic Dragon. Sounds legit, doesn't I? She said Sorry, I pause a sec

Piff, the Magic Dragon, real name checking into a premiere in Yeah, that's right surname The Magic Dragon First Name Pith Well no, because it would be Piff the Magic And the surname would be Dragon Or would it?

I don't know Anyway, she said I kept getting distracted Jane Garvey, killer of jokes Unless they're hers Oh I kept getting distracted By the words, nice to see you

At first I dismissed it but then came the unmistakable second half to see you nice followed by mischievous laughter well it's just somebody under the stage having a joke oh well now you've killed my story so it's one all but how wonderful and I didn't know that Bruce's ashes were there under the stage of the London palates

so did they have to take a bit of the stage up to pour them in in a ceremony or they just kind of shoved them under there just poured them through one of the cracks I've lost a lot of earrings through the cracks of my floorboard It suggests that the stage is perhaps you might be onto something not desperately well maintained and they were just able to slip the ashes through the crackware. So if you were going to choose a workplace,

final resting place for your ashes, where would it be? Would it be in Studio 60C, which was the big Woman's Hour studio with the BBC? No, no, I don't think. I think I'd like to go the way of my late Cat Mittens whose ashes were scattered around the tree where she used to do her business

during the summer months. Okay, that's very nice. That's been entirely appropriate for me as well. How lovely that would be. Oh gosh, that reminds me. Pinky Punks is still in the hall cupboard. Okay. We just, and he's...

What do you mean? Well, because when he came... This is a cat, by the way. Yeah. When he came back from cremation at the vets, we were going to... Oh, sorry, I forgot. This is the late...

The late, yeah. The late Pinky Pongs, also known as the Duchess. Even though he was a boy. God, is anyone still awake? Long story. Well, some people are interested. When he came back in his little tub, we were going to do a proper ceremony for him

and we were going to put something out in the garden. And I did a bit of research and it said that you have to actually dig down quite a lot because if you've got foxes, they will just come and mess up the soil, even though it's ashes. There might still be a little bit of a whiff about them. So I think the advice was to just let them rest for kind of six months before getting rid of them. But I've just completely forgotten. And they're definitely in one of those party bags.

You know that you get given a lot at Christmas when people can't be asked to wrap your present up. I always think that's a sign that they just put it in a bag. The festive cheerers. Yep. So I think he's in a bag with pink balloons saying happy birthday on them. So that could be a very, very unwanted gift if someone gets that muddled up. anyway he definitely deserves a proper cross and a proper burial

I might secretly be waiting until cools goes the same way and then we could just do a kind of double whammy I tell you what we started off our conversation about how kind of narrow it's a niche thing isn't it real tennis as is lacrosse and I also think maybe

gravestones for pets is quite a narrow self-identifying as a self-identifying as a certain class kind of thing. Yeah, you might be right. But just to have the privilege of knowing that their remains are in the back garden is nice enough for me.

I don't need to mark it in any other way. Yeah. Just go out there occasionally and have a little think about it. Anyway, I just wanted to mention this from Denise, who says she's currently in Capulonia, but she lives in Brecon. Thank you for that detail.

She gave in her notice just before she came away on holiday. As she says, she's 66 in November, and she says, I've decided to retire. I have noticed I've been getting so stressed at work in the last couple of months and that life is just too short. Has anyone else just had that moment when it all becomes clear and you've taken the plunge? So I'm just going to put that out there. Has anybody else had a Denise moment when they just think, no, you know what?

I am 66 or I'm nearly 66 and I don't need this in my life anymore. Is there something that just tips you over the Azure whereas there are a moment in your working day or perhaps leading up to your working day that just crystallised everything and you thought, no, I can check out. So when you read that email, what was your immediate reaction to it?

I was interested in it because when I was away, I was thinking about how, whilst I was really enjoying being away, part of the reason I was enjoying it was because I could come back to work. So I am not at that point, is I think what I'm saying. I still enjoy work.

I enjoy being tired by work, if that makes any sense, because it kind of shapes my week, and I really enjoy it. So I haven't got to that point. And also, we have a fun job. Well, I read that email this morning, and I thought, oh, Denise. That's the difference between us. But I think there will be other people who can relate to that one way or the other. Oh, definitely.

Definitely, I'm intrigued by it too. And also, what happens if you've planned your retirement? And so you know that it kind of needs to be four or five or six years away just in terms of money and where your family are and commitments and all that type of stuff. And then you have the moment. Yeah. What have you done? Yes, and it can work the other way.

I mean, I'm also intrigued by people who perhaps have gone abroad and they may have established a life abroad, what they will have done. And in some cases, they've got grandchildren abroad. broad and they have elderly parents or an elderly parent here and they are really then torn in their 60s about what they do. Who do they owe their time to? It's something that a friend of mine was sort of dealing with and I just thought that was really interesting and quite the headspin actually about what you do. So anyway, that's just a little sharpener there for you. You can have a think about that over the next couple of days. I do find myself just,

increasingly drawn to all of these hobbies and activities and interests that take up a vast amount of time and I know that I'm becoming interested in them because in my in the in in my head and it's not even the back of my head it's creeping towards a frontal lobe there's a whole different shape of the day coming at me and once I think once you start thinking about that and as you so often point out I'm considerably younger than you but yeah which is not to say this job isn't fun it's an absolute blast

and as we've often said I don't think either of us imagined that towards the end of our working lives. Our twilight years yeah we would be in such a good position we should call this podcast the twilight years but one thing I think we have

established is that neither of us will be devoting those years to real tennis I played lacrosse at school Jane I've never gone back to that You caught a ball in a net And run with it Which is ridiculous game That's the point of it isn't it

You have to do you have to be No you can be running when you catch it And running when you throw it I don't know I was so hopeless I was always just dressed up in this ridiculous amount of padding And just sent to be a goalkeeper Which is horrendous

Because it's like a cricket ball That's how hard a lacrosse ball is And it comes out you really really really really fast and if you're very small you just haven't got a hope in hell of stopping it and then you know the team turns against you because you're rubbish there's a miserable experience absolutely hated lacrosse and there was no other sport to do ridiculous did you ever lobber ball over wee fee's head in that goal oh god you probably lots of people did lots of people have very very good at it marvellous paper bag portraits comes in from charlie aka bagsy my sister clara

encouraged me to contact you. She's a big fan. I've really enjoyed listening to your podcast over the summer whilst driving across France. It's a very nice email this. It says your great mix of entertainment and education. I love the interviews. I can't believe I now prefer Rick Astley to Morrissey, the Smiths for my heroes in the 1980s. I heard your reflection on Banksy in early summer too, so I thought I'd send you some bagsie art in appreciation. I draw faces on paper bags and put them on the heads of friends and family. You are being modeled by my wife Vicky and her friend Zoe in a very tidy kitchen. I'm sorry not to get a cat in the shot. And I tell you what, just in time for Halloween. It's a pretty frightening sight.

I think I'm grateful, but I'm not sure. So I had to look at it for quite a long time to work out who it was, but it is us. Which is not to say that your artistic talents aren't on display there, But just the paper bags are about twice or even three times the size of a normal head. And I think you do, who do you look like in that picture, Jane? Norman Wisdom? Maybe. It'll come to me. It's definitely a man.

Great. And I look like somebody, as I think it might be a man too. I'll tell you what, I think I look a bit like that bloke who's a name. name I can never pronounce from the tree detectives Matthew McConaicay McConaughey? I don't know Mohonahoehonyi Mahonahe? Thank you. I don't know

didn't he write a very moving memoir? Was that something else? It doesn't narrow the field of Well, no, no it doesn't Anyway, thank you for that Charlie they are great pictures, we'll pop them up on the Instagram and other people can decide to we look like, be gentle

please, actually you don't need to be did you discuss that film The Roses last week? We did. Yes. Now I went to see that just before I went away. It was a shocking wet afternoon and I was in North London with my offspring

and they were both, I'm sorry to say they'd taken drink the night before neither of them was up for much conversation. So after a rather lackluster meal I just said, you know what, let's just go to the cinema. I mean, then we can say we've legit had family time but we don't have to talk. and we went to see it and I quite enjoyed it

they thought it was hilarious I only quite enjoyed it what did you think I really liked it but the conversation that we had off the back of it was about whether or not the depiction of a man struggling with his sense of identity

because he had ended up being the one staying at home to look after the kids was a welcome advance in our themes on screen and in literature or actually just a little bit insulting because for general women have had to struggle with their identity when they're the ones staying at home to look after the kids

and perhaps haven't got quite such an empathetic depiction in films usually we're just up against it ungrateful and mad and well on Valium yes that so we had a bit of a chat about that what did you think of that particular strain of it do you know I don't think I'd given it that much consideration I thought the character played by Kate McKinnon

the um what was her name i think it was amy i thought she was really funny she kind of saved the film for me do you remember her the very rude one yeah they're incredibly rude yes i mean i i thought she was magnificent and slightly stole every scene she was in um i don't think i gave any proper consideration to the fact that it was a role reversal thing um it really really did the job people get very serious about cinema don't they um you know you hear some very very very earnest interpretations and long-form discussions on certain networks.

On podcasts. On podcasts and indeed on some radio networks. To me, it was just a wet afternoon that it passed the time magnificently and I'd like to say thanks to all involved. Is that terrible? No, I mean, no, I don't suppose it's terrible. I thought it was good.

Yeah, I know. It was absolutely fine. I think Olivia Coleman is a superb actress and I've never, I haven't seen that much of Benedict Cumberbatch's work because a lot of it just doesn't appeal actually and I was quite surprised by how much I liked him

I thought they both pulled it off very well it's an old movie isn't it? Oh yeah it's the War of the Roses with Is it Michael? Douglas and Kathleen Turner Yeah okay right which I don't think I had seen Anyway our correspondent Kathleen Also another Kathleen Kathleen Kathleen emailed because she's written a book called

Would You Ask My Husband That which she says has that same theme the roles are reversed and the woman becomes the high-flying breadwinner while the husband's busy with the school run and the laundry my book is humorous but the underlying question she says is a serious one how does the shift in their power balance affect a relationship my friend's husbands don't have the resentment

that my male character has in the book but as soon as my friends got home from work their husbands would down their domestic tools if indeed that is what they've been doing all day and expected them to take over as they had been on duty all day and that I think is not uncommon although we mustn't generalise

because there will be some house husbands who do the do throughout the day and night aren't their feet God definitely no definitely but it's this whole business of it used to be it is very funny that let's say

was a woman at home with small children, the man was out at work, and he would, a terrific fuss would be made with the man when he got in. And there were all these guides about how the woman should redo her make-up 10 minutes before the man was due home, so she could look her best. And his steak dinner should be ready within an hour of his return. And then he should be genuinely, genuinely, generally looked after and cosseted because you'd be so exhausted by the working day. Whereas all you've been doing is just pruning your rose bush.

smiling gaily at your kiddies which doesn't count as a shift does it not at all what do you think the best depiction of a more proper gender balanced relationship and family life what have you seen recently or read recently where it is just fairer

I don't think I can't bring nothing springs to mind have you well I was just thinking about the male character in Motherland and we talked a bit about this before so he was much mocked Yes, but exactly. But Motherland, I thought, was fantastic, absolutely fantastic,

and Amanda land is fantastic too. But the only thing that I felt was a little bit kind of unfair was that the only stay-at-home husband depicted in Motherland was dungaree wearing wet as a blanket, incredibly kind of genuflecting towards his wife, who we never saw, didn't we? Well, she was busy. She was very, very busy.

And he, it just seemed to, slight kind of missed opportunity to just have a more normal bloke in the mix It wouldn't have been as funny though It wouldn't have been as funny but I don't know I mean it's not that every comedy has to kind of play its part in progress but sometimes the stereotyping

of men being imbeciles around the house does it reinforce an opportunity to be an imbecile around the house I think maybe it does Another one that we can punt out there what we just have. Yeah. People can give a lot of thought.

I don't suppose anybody will get a stroke of housework done this weekend because you'll all be pondering the questions we've posed in our conversation. So shirts will go unironed. Just down tools and say, I'm going to email the women. That's what I'm going to do this evening. I'm emailing women. Obviously, the horse was called President Dump. That comes in from Carla.

Very good. Yours in service. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, absolutely brilliant. This was the horse that did its business as it trotted path. trotted past that man. Have you seen that one of the other newspapers has reported a little off-the-cuff comment

that President Trump was meant to have said whilst touring some of the beautiful rooms and exhibitions and dolls houses or whatever he was shown last week? And he said, I'm just a bit fed off of being shown all of these nice things. He got bored of them, Jane. Nice things? Yeah, just bored of them.

I thought you might have said something like, why did they build this castle so close to the airport? he didn't say that did he really say that it's been reported we don't know and because we're very very very trusted journalists we shouldn't really repeat that no no very trusted

and we have repeated it so you can make it my bad my bad okay Lottie says I noted with interest Jamal that's Jane Mulcairin's comment about developing an intolerance to dairy while living in the state While it sounded like this was connected in her case to hormones in the beef cheese Good Lord

I missed that was an episode I missed I wanted to share the experience I had while living in New Zealand a couple of years ago as a dedicated pasta and crusty bread enthusiast a few months into my life down under I started to notice digestive issues every time I ate gluten eventually I just cut it out

but in parallel developed a fascination with gut health which made me great company part of and who is our guest today? Oh my word, Jane. It's only Tim Specter, the man who can tell us everything we need to know about gut biomes.

Well, our correspondent Lottie says one really interesting thing I learned is that when we move countries, our microbiome gradually changes. The natural bacteria present in the environment, soil, water, etc., varies from country to country and over time, this has an impact on the bacteria living in our gut.

and this has an impact on our digestion so while in one country we might be totally fine with a certain food we might struggle to process it with altered gut bacteria in a different country that makes sense to me makes perfect sense and I'm just going to jot it down right and I'm going to ask Tim exactly that

she says I had a number of gluten intolerant friends in New Zealand whereas I didn't know anybody in the UK I wonder if the natural nz bacteria just aren't as well suited to processing gluten this is a very much half-baked theory with little scientific backup she says well it's interesting it's really interesting she says she's been back in the UK for several years took about six months to readjust to gluten but she's happy to say she can now be found mainlining almond quasson whenever the opportunity arises it does sound as they've made a full recovery lot and thank goodness

for that but we'll definitely put that or fee will put that point to tim specter yeah so you're meant to always try and eat local honey, aren't you? When you go to a new country because that provides the most natural localised resistance to infections because the bees will have

taken all of their honey from the pollen of the local species so you can immediately put a very localised kind of gut barrier into your system. That's interesting. I didn't know that. Do you do any fermentia?

are you sorry do I do I don't actually and I feel a bit guilty because I was bought for Christmas a sort of a kofia thing because Tim Specter makes his own kimchi and of course it's called Timchie he's a clever he's a clever lad I I don't know about you could be making chimchie I cannot hollow out the time in my schedule for kimchi making. But when I'm retired fee, I should be busy bodying my way around to your Gaff most days of the week with my latest product which I will have fermented in my own kitchen

and you can look forward to that. I do that, I mean he's a big natural, he's a big yoghurt fan isn't he? And I do show my wide knowledge of the life and times of Tim Spectre. You know what? If on the live show you can introduce one of our trails, our main

guest has been Someone who knows about yoghurt. Being the UK's leading yoghurt man, Tim Specter, I will buy your lunch. I used to be so resistant to yoghurt, partly because... Did you, darling? This is fascinating. I did.

You know those, you know the ones I mean, I can't name the brand, because you never know. But quite watery and sort of fruit-infested and gloopy. and they were omnipresent in my childhood and adolescence. Really didn't like them. Ski? Or the other one. Oh, okay.

Yeah, I think it might have been there. I couldn't bear it. Anyway, Greek yoghush is just a totally different. It's not just another ballgame, it's another stratosphere, isn't it? God. Right. That's where we were heading. That's just where we were heading.

So do ask Tim, do ask him why Greek yoghers is different. I'm better than that. Oh, I tell you what, we should retire quite soon. Well, I mean, I'm wondering whether I am rethinking what I said earlier. Oh, Lordy, Lordy. Celia comes in to tell us further to your story about letters received from men called Mike. Are you aware that there are more statues in this country for blokes called John than there are in total for women?

This came to light when my old school friend, a girl, was the sculptor of the new statue of Emmeline Pankhurst in Manchester. a few years ago. Only the second statue of a woman in Greater Manchester after, guess who? Well, it'd be a monarch. Yeah, Queen Victoria. And that's it. She's ridiculous. That is, isn't it? Really, just absolutely rubbish.

But we continue our challenge to our listeners to send letters to the Times and Sunday Times signed Penelope. And we're just going to see whether we can get more pennies in than mics sometime over the next couple of weeks. It's quite a tough one. Because women, tend to and I'm probably not including myself in this we do tend to think sometimes before we speak like I said not necessarily myself I'm talking about here and we might not consider our opinions

worthy of wider approval or we just don't assume that everyone's going to be interested in what we believe or think about something men on the whole and generalisation don't seem to be held back in quite the same way so let's all think of some something we can write to the papers about over the next couple of weeks. Yeah, no, we should. And I think you're completely right. I think you're brought up to rather sit on your opinions as a woman. And if you do air your opinions, you know, immediately the barrage of adjectives that come at you

are very different to the ones that would be attributed to a man giving forth his opinions. And you and I have been on the receiving end of that a lot. And we still are. So sometimes when we go on air on our live program, people will object. and it is largely men will immediately get in touch with us to tell us we're wrong. You know, we've barely got seven minutes into the programme before being corrected by a man. I don't know. Sometimes it turns out they're right, which is even more infuriating. Well, that's fine. Yes.

But it comes from the same place, doesn't it? I'm going to tell those two women what's what. I'll put them right. And they do. Trish says, the first time I brought my boyfriend, now husband, home from London. It was for my brother's party. I'm the oldest of four and the only girl. On arrival, my dad, intimidated by my boyfriend's status as a graduate, launched into asking him his views on nuclear versus fossil fuels,

while supplying him with tins of double diamond. My dad assumed he'd like bitter because he's from the Midlands. My husband hated it, but didn't know how to refuse and hid the tins behind the curtains. That will have worked. The next day, preparations for the party food were in full swing, when my boyfriend now husband got up. He thought he'd better keep out of the way and watch television.

well what he didn't know is that my mum really didn't like the television being on in daylight hours woman after our own heart exactly because we have very firm rules of course no television before seven unless it's news unless it's live sport or a state occasion that's that's always or news I suppose it would have to be very significant news when she heard the sound of the TV my mum assumed it was one of my brothers

and she hot footed her way to the sitting room armed with a dishcloth and she whacked my now husband over the head. Now my mother was a gentle woman usually and really quite unlikely to hit anybody. It must have been the stress of the party. There ensued many sincere apologies, but the joy of Saturday morning television was ruined for my husband.

He decided to help prepare the food. There was a short interlude as he cut himself quite badly and had to retire to read a book save from any further potential injury. We've now been married for 40 years and he was never assaulted again. My parents never mentioned,

and the abandoned cans of double diamond, but needless to say, he was never offered it again. Trish, thank you very much. She does say, slightly mystifyingly, that she came to see us in Colchester and had a great time. I don't think we've been to Colchester. I wonder if that was...

Barry St Edmonds. Oh, so, yes. But it's... I mean, Barry St Edmonds isn't Colchester. No, but it's perilously close, isn't it? Maybe you went to see somebody better at Colchester. I wonder whether somebody really good was on in Colchester, Trish. In which case, we'll take it.

Yeah, absolutely. we will. Yeah, it was a good night that Colchester gig. Yeah. Right, shall we delve into the small intestines of Tim Specter? Yes, and do put that point about yoghurt to him, won't you? I certainly will, sister. How good is your gut biome?

How well are you looking after your small intestine? And are you eating enough of your four Ks? Tim Specter is the master of the kimchi, kifir, kombucha, and I can't remember the other one revolution. And his latest book explains why these fermented food should be part of our everyday lives. He's the co-founder of Zoe, the personalised nutrition company, which followed on from the

COVID symptom study app, a research program which attracted over 2 million users and earned him an OBE for services to public health. I started by asking Tim the statutory question. You ask anybody when settling them into a broadcasting studio, but one that is particularly relevant to him. What did you have for breakfast? Great question. I had some homemade sourdough bread. topped with cream cheese and kimchi. Okay, so you've got one of the K's in already? I've got one of the K's in already, yes. And I didn't have my normal breakfast

because my wife was having some of this delicious bread and I just got tempted and distracted. But I had my black coffee, which is another healthy food. That was my starch there, which isn't always my normal breakfast, but... Sounds good enough to me. In your book, Firmant, you tell us about the amazing potential

for bettering our health if we do eat fermented foods. And the statistics are incredible, actually. In a 2024 study of nearly 10,000 volunteers in the UK, participants who consumed foods such as sauer, yogurt or kimchi for three weeks, reported 47% improved mood, 55% more energy, 52% reduced hunger, 42% decreased bloating. Why is that happening in our bodies

if we eat that type of food? What's the actual process? We don't know precisely because this is such a new area of science, but this massive study shows that most people will benefit in a pretty short period of time. We think that the microbes are getting into a body, so the myth they all got destroyed is wrong, and they get into our guts.

And we think that the microbes in the fermented food are actually working on the upper part of our intestines, our small intestine, where they interact with the immune system and they send a signal to the immune system to calm down. It's not, you know, just like there's a mini-valium that just sort of says, okay, immune system, don't worry, all those stresses and problems that give us everybody, you know, in this country,

a slightly heightened immune system unnecessarily is calmed down by about 20 or 30%. And this happens if you take these products regularly, small amounts on a daily basis. And this is what these very careful studies have shown that have looked at blood levels of inflammation which is really telling us what the immune system is doing. So we think that most of this happens that way

and that has knock-on effects through the whole body. So if our immune system is calm, that sends signals to your brain to reduce stress, anxiety, prevent depression, make you feel a bit happier. It also sends signals to your brain to say you're not feeding as hungry as you would do it sends signals to your metabolism

to be working better so you're processing sugars and your blood pressure is lower and all these things happen so increasingly we think that microbes in our body are working through the immune system because the two connect all the time

most of our immune cells about 75% are actually lining our gut and the reason are there is that they're talking all the time to the microbes that are either naturally in our gut or those that might be passing through with these magical foods. You've said in our country, in this country, and actually I was very interested in the book

at just how much other countries and other cultures still eat all of these foods, but we have either never really embraced them or we have lost the desire to embrace them. And why is that? I think we used to eat them up until about the Second World War we were quite big producers of things like fermented milk which is kaffir

people used to make their own yoghurt and cheese and there was a fair bit of fermenting vegetables done and then something happened at the end of the war they got rid of all those small local cheese producers and everyone had to make just cheddar and we were sort of brought up as Britain being the centre of the industrial revolution we must be best on technology everyone need the fridge and I think we thought if it was modern it was good

and it was just this wave swept through the country so that we've lost several generations of fermented food users which hasn't been the case in Scandinavia hasn't been the case in Eastern and Central Europe and in the Mediterranean as well. So I just think it's, you know, we embraced far too much technology, processed foods, clean foods and we sort of lost touch in a way with the way that we were all at one time fermenting foods regularly in every household before fridge has arrived. We don't really like the notion of a food that might be a little bit fizzy.

when we open the jar might smell to us a little bit rancid. That's part of the problem, isn't it? A fermented food, I think, to an awful lot of people, especially in the younger generation, can seem a little bit frightening. Absolutely, because we haven't been exposed to it as kids. Whereas if you're brought up in a Polish family or you're brought up in an Indian family, mum or granny would be making the kaffir every day.

Every time you went in the kitchen, you'd be smelling it. it would give you good associations whereas here we see something we don't know what it is we think it's mouldy it's going rotten and most people don't understand the difference between rotten food

and fermented food and... What is the difference, Tim? When do you know when your kaffir has really gone bad? Well fermented food is food that's been transformed by microbes

into something better, into something that tastes better, has got more interesting flavours, it's got a longer shelf life, it's also better for your health. And when you leave, say, milk out, as an example, if you leave just milk out on the shelf, it will slowly go off because it's rather random which microbes land on it

and transform it and eat it. And so you get a random collection of chemicals. same like if you leave a bit of tomatoes out for a month or something they all turn into rotten tomatoes they'll smell terrible and it'll be inedible what we're doing fermentation is we're controlling the microbes we like farming it so that only the microbes that live in a certain environment with a certain amount of acidity or a certain amount of sugar

are able to survive and everything else gets killed off so it's a really small amount of these microbes that are working for us and when they're working you know they're killing off everything they're killing off all the bad microbes that might cause us harm so it's the controlled

element to it that that's really different and you know simply just by adding 2% salt to any sort of cabbage or beet or carrot or anything that will then allow those microbes that like salt to do their work they will then produce acids

that kills off all the bad guys and in that process then they're breaking down those all the lovely different sugars in the plant and creating so much tastier so it's all about sort of farming analogy is what you're doing and rather than letting it go wild

you're actually working out what you want to farm I'm still not brave enough to make my own kimchi and stuff like that though because I don't think that I have the knowledge to be able to tell when something is too fizzy, it's gone too far, it smells too weird. Would you accept that us amateurs in the world of fermentation

are, I don't know, right to be a little bit fearful? Yes and no. I mean, evolutionary-wise, we're told to be careful about what we eat. So we have to learn through experience that these things are fine to eat. and I think it's only because of the last few generations of upbringing that you're reacting very differently to say your great-grandmother when you see food.

My mum is in her 90s. It was never put off. She would scrape everything, all the mould off the cheese or whatever it was and eat it and has always been perfectly fine. I've been doing this for about 15 years. I've never got ill. There's a few things I've thrown out. out. You know, white mould is fine. Black mold is to be thrown out. When it's a really, really weird

unpleasant smell, you don't eat it. Generally, you know, with your nose and experience, it's absolutely fine. So the point to write in this book is to encourage people, A, to buy commercial ones and use more of them, but also try a few really simple ones. I mean, the book is full of incredibly simple recipes. I mean, there's nothing much more simple than, you know, putting some garlic cloves and some honey and watching that ferment over a week. You know, that's not yucky at all.

So there are a sort of easy ways into it for you you know, if you're a bit squeamish. Yeah, no, you're right. Cutting up a cabbage. There are entry level ingredients. You know, cutting up a cabbage, weighing it, putting 2% salt, massaging it, sticking it in a jar, and a week later

you've got sauerkra. There's very little that can go wrong. Given the amazing statistics about how good all of this stuff is for us. Why isn't it taken on board more by the NHS when we go and see our GP? Why isn't it there in the wider world of medicine? Well, it is in other countries. So you've got to realise that we used to think we had the best health service in the world

and the best doctors, but recently we don't. And other countries, when you go and have antibiotics, the GP will tell you about fermented foods and probiotics and it's just a blind spot in this country so that medical students and doctors are just not trained about it and it also in this country and others it takes about 20 years from a scientific discovery to actual change in the practice of the average doctor

it's a frighteningly long time because change is, you know, medicine is a very conservative speciality. And I think it's a mixture of that that's really different. I wonder what your thoughts are, though, about our ability to evaluate the evidence at the moment because we've seen recently we're talking in a week where paracetamol has been quoted by the President of the United States of America as something dangerous for pregnant women to take because it leads to autism. our ability just as people, we're not qualified academics or doctors,

to take on board what we need to know for our own health is so challenged at the moment, isn't it? And is there a bit of you that worries about the area that you're in, which is telling people about foods, being evangelical about foods, whereby you might be making people more vulnerable to serious illness because they believe that they can cure themselves with things? I agree we're at difficult times and people need to go to the sources that they trust, not just the first person they come across when they're scrolling through Instagram or TikTok.

But everyone has the ability now to look up the studies. So, you know, the revolution that is, you know, communications means that these studies are actually available for people to see. you can see a summary of meta-analysis of the 20 studies of fermented foods and see what it does. And I always caveat all of my books with the fact that this is true for most people. Everything I'm giving advice for is the average person, they're always exceptions. And in those rare exceptions, there's no way you can write a book for every single person. in every situation. And if you're worried, you should always consult your doctor

who knows your particular medical problems and me as writing a book, absolutely don't. But I think we're coming from a place where there's so much fear and that I'm hearing terrible stories of people being told to give up all their fermented foods when they get cancer, when actually your immune system needs it most,

when actually you can perhaps double the effectiveness of your chemotherapy or immunotherapy if you're helping your gut. Here's stories that you shouldn't give it to children because they're immature and that's again crucial. So I think by promoting this stuff, yeah, the vast majority of people are going to benefit and, yeah, there's always an exception to the rule.

And I don't, you know, I'm a doctor, I'm not saying you should throw out any of these treatments or they replace them, but these are things to do in addition as supplementary things. But, you know, we're seeing a... I just want people that maybe if they get, you know, that study we did of these 9,000 people with... If you can improve mood in two weeks

with just by giving three fermented foods a day, you know, how many million people are off work with stress or mental health disorders? If their GP hasn't suggested change their diet or having fermented foods, give it a try. It's not going to, you don't have to give up your antidepressant at the same time. You can try both. One of our podcast listeners had an interesting query

about whether or not your gut changes dependent on the place that you live in. And she had had an experience of gluten intolerance that was completely different when she lived in New Zealand to when she came back to live in this country. Is it dependent on the locale? that you're in, the type of food that you're eating? It is, and we've done studies comparing the US and the UK and also Asian immigrants to the US.

And we found that there's the difference between first generation and second generation, they become like the gut microbes of people around them, which is dependent on the diet and to some extent the environment. much more than things like race. Race and genetics have only very trivial effects compared to your environment. So you really do change where you are

and the foods that you're eating, the chemicals in those foods, all the other effects. So absolutely, yes, she's right. My colleague Jane Garvey wants to know what's so special about Greek yogurt. Great question, Jane. Nothing really is. Marketing is the main reason

because it's essentially just strained yoghurt, so it's more concentrated. And the good ones don't fiddle with the fat content. You keep it full fat, which is what is always best for your health. But most of the yoghurt you buy here is Greek-style yogurt. It doesn't actually come from Greece. It's so-called Greek style, which just means they strain it for a bit longer,

less water in it and it's more solid. I like it because then I can mix it with my milk kaffir in the morning and that gives me the three microbial species from the yoghurt plus maybe up to 20, 30 or so from my kaffir. And, you know, I like a bit of substance, so I don't just like a totally runny breakfast. So that suits me. Nobody wants a totally runny breakfast.

No one wants a running breakfast. Can we talk about the marketing? I mean, this is a multi-billion dollar industry now, isn't it? the health food section, the kind of life-enhancing properties that are sold on what we would have called basic ingredients now. And Zoe, your company, has joined the shelves. You can buy gut shots, can't you, in a very well-known high-end supermarket. Did you have any misgivings about becoming that commercial and joining shelves that definitely must have products on them, Tim, that you wouldn't entirely endorse?

Yes, I think we certainly were worried that the first time we produced a product, whether it was the gutshot or our daily 30, people would say you're selling out, you're just like the big food companies, you just want to make a buck. But people have this misguided idea

that companies in health are charities in some way, and we do have to make money. But also we want to, you know, as opposed to just giving advice through our podcast on the app, we want to give people better health choices. And to do that, we want to produce products that people can buy on the go easily without having to sort of do a lot of the heavy work themselves when they're busy. So I think we, and you can't avoid supermarkets in this country because they are 80% of the food. If you do that, you're only talking to a few trendy people

who, you know, live in certain bits of North London. So it really is important. Can I just widen that to East London as well? Okay. Now, yeah, well, that's now become part of the same group. But yes. So I think you've got to go in and show people that in that range, which has the most horrible range of children's yogurts in one end,

full of artificial sweeteners and colourants that should be banned to top of the range artisan created milk cafes, etc and so we just want to highlight that you can get good products in all these ranges and that's also why we produced our app

that can help you work out what the risks are of having these things but you can't ignore supermarkets and the good thing is in this country we have terrible food culture but a really good one We can change things really fast. And supermarkets are where they notice the changes

and they will stock what people want and they will get rid of stuff. So already we're seeing supermarkets getting rid of a lot of low-fat yogurts as people realise they've been conned for years and years and they're moving towards the full-fat ones which are now selling much more. So, yeah, I think supermarkets, we have to address it

and they'll sell what people want. I don't think, whereas the food companies want I sell them what makes them most profit, actually the supermarkets are geared up for the consumer. You mentioned in your book, Ferment, that you obviously make your own kimchi at home, which is known as

Timchi. Will we see that on the shelves sometime soon? Well, who knows? You know, it's my little secret at home, and unfortunately it changes every single week, so no two batches are the same, which makes it very difficult to

scale these things up. So, I'm not sure, but we could see this whole new area of dead, I might just make a powder Timchi and there's this new idea that dead microbes are also healthy for you so I think we're going to see many of

much more of these so-called post-biotics in our foods in the future which is a really exciting turn. Right. I'd love it if you put something on the shelves called dead microbes to see whether or not they're catches off. Well, I was thinking zombie my zombiotics you know be life after death because the science is just in the last few years

caught up and what I thought was totally useless a few years ago turns out that dead microbes in food do give some health benefits and I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of our foods with these interesting dead microbes in them that you know we wouldn't have believed possible and they might be having again an effect on our immune systems that's really something to watch Tim Specter and his new book is called Ferment. It's called what? Ferment. Ferment.

Tim Spector. Tim Spector. Tim Spector. I've given you all the options. Yes, I was going to say. Ferment. Ferment. Yeah.

Okay, so you're saying fermentation. Yes, you would. But if you took the asian off, ferment. Ferment. I don't know. FER. M-E-N-T. Eve's indicating that she's had

more than enough. It's only been a two-day week. I know. I know. In some ways it's worse, isn't it? Because at least if it's a four-day week, I don't know, you can kind of just switch off and get through it, can't you?

Two days is difficult. So look, that's it from us for this week. Although, if we've got a Friday bonus, we haven't got a Friday bonus. Well, tough titties, everybody. We'll talk to you on Monday. Good guests, though, next week, including who's back?

Who is back? Ken Follett. Ken Follett. And we're going to learn a great deal next week about Stonehenge, everybody. Look forward to it. Can I also say we've got Joanna Lumley, too? In a few weeks.

In a few weeks. Oh, I'm just doing it next week. We're doing it on a Friday. Okay, yeah, I'm coming into work on. I'm coming into work on a Friday, Jane. Yes, but I've got Pilates. But it means that next time there's a guest on Friday. I think it's high time we ended the podcast.

Have a very lovely couple of days. It'll be your turn. Good. It's here on record. I don't know. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day. Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Thank you.