Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The unforgiving barrel (with Sanjeev Bhaskar)

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Fi is off on holiday this week... so it's Jane and Jane! Or Garvey and Mulkerrins, if you prefer. They chat running, waitressing, and the return of the boot-cut jean.Plus, actor Sanjeev Bhaskar on the latest season of 'Unforgotten'.The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Guy Emanuel Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Shall we start a Time's Radio football team? Um, no. stories and live updates on the Times app and website. Don't miss out. Visit thetimes.com forward slash subscribe with Google to claim your offer today. 18 plus new customers only. Offer ends midnight April the 14th. T's and C's apply. We're good to go. Right, as we did mention last week, FIIT is off so it's Mulkerrins and Garvey for the next four days. Welcome, Other Jane. Hello, Other Jane. Are you alright? Very well, thanks. Yeah. Good. It's very happy to be back in our, you know, what are we, like an Irish solicitors firm?

Yeah. Or shoe leather detectives? Mark Kerens and Garvey. I think we're middle ranking Midlands estate agents in the Republic of Ireland. Okay. Mark Kerens and Garvey. The locals will be a little bit, they'll only go there if they're desperate. Yeah. That's what, that's what.

We'll be just trying to sell houses that are storm damaged at the moment and not very well. Is that what's happening? Well yeah, it was over in Connemara where my family's from the other weekend and I mean there's, it's unbelievable. I mean there are houses that look like something from The Wizard of Oz. You know, they picked up the roof and just dumped it in the garden. It's just, it's really bad. That is really bad. I mean because there's so much stuff going on, there are other stories we're not hearing about. And I must admit, I had not remembered that all that, that the storm had

been so bad in Ireland, but of course it had. Because it hit Ireland first and then came to us, didn't it? Yeah. Yeah. 118 miles per hour winds on the island where my family has a house. Oh my god. Yeah. Right. Did it affect alcohol sales? Only for the brief period where nobody had any power and couldn't work the tills. But I think after that, everyone had stocked up and I think everyone's fine. Right. Well, genuinely, I'm glad to hear it.

Now, last week when Fee was here, we had this very serious email, which I think we probably should tackle first. Do you know the one I mean? About the woman who was pregnant but was really having doubts about her partner? And there's been a lot of response to that. And there has, understandably, and I think we just need to just air some of the thoughts that have come in. There's just been a little gap in proceedings where Jamele Kerrins successfully dealt with a blind issue.

That's because I'm a strong, independent woman. Practical woman. Yeah, but thank you for that because now I can see. So that's worked an absolute treat. And actually, the sun is out today and doesn't it make a difference? Oh gosh, it really does. I'm really bored of it being cold. Yeah, I know it's pathetic, but so am I. It's been very cold. I know it has. It's been unremitting, the weather, since Christmas. I do running now. Oh yeah, I didn't know.

Now when did this start? Well, it's been a while. Last May, I think, I started running. I don't remember you telling me that. Maybe I've been keeping it to myself. Okay, and so seriously, did you start running from like nothing or? Not nothing because I did a bit of other exercise and I'd sort of done a little bit of light running previously, but I'd started from almost a standing start.

I did a little bit of couch 5k and then I started training for a half marathon, which I did in October and then I've carried on and I'm doing another half marathon quite soon. But the reason I'm talking about the cold is I have to run really early in the morning because then I have to get on a train to come to London. And it's so cold in the morning, even with gloves on, my little hands are very, very cold. And some mornings it's just not fun. Some mornings, I have to say this morning was beautiful because the sun came out. You're running by the sea this morning?

Yes. Oh, Jane, that's lovely. It is really nice. And what time was this? About seven? About 6.30. Yeah, because it's just getting light when I come to. Which, and that's really new as well, so when I was running at 6.30, you know, a week or two ago, it was still pitch black. Yeah. But it is nice that the sun was coming up this morning, the sky was all pink, but my little hands were very cold even in my gloves.

So I'm just, you know, I'm looking forward to my fingers not falling off. Oh yeah, I feel for you, because I have to exercise in the morning, but morning by coming down the stairs and getting my copy of the times off the step. And if you haven't got the heating chrome top it can get very cold. Well as I've mentioned before my heating doesn't come on of its own volition, I turn it on. I don't like spooky heating coming on on a timer. I mean neither. No. Okay so Phee thinks I'm mad but you don't like it either. No. I think it should be done by the human hand. And also I have a slightly unpredictable schedule so I don't always know where I'm going to be. You're crazy. You don't know where you're going to be. No, it's true. I don't know where I'm going to be. So I don't want to set my heating to

come on every morning and every night at the same time. I don't know if I'm going to be there. What a waste. Exactly. You just don't know. By the way, I'm back in bootcut jeans. Very fashionable aren't you? Well, only because I read it in the Times. This sounds like I'm on message Mandy mode. It'd make a change. I did read in the Times on Saturday that the bootcut jean is back. Yeah. If it was in your Saturday Times, it was definitely true. Okay, so I went, almost on autopilot, I went to a local store, actually in the Liverpool

version of the store and got a pair of bootcut jeans. And you know what, the Times was right, they are more comfortable and better fitting on a woman of my less than majestic stature than the straight jeans. Why did I ever leave the bootcut behind? But that's the thing with jeans because they are all over the place, aren't they? You never know whether it's straight, skinny, boyfriend or bootcut. I think anything goes right now. People are back in skinny's, people are wearing bootcuts, people are wearing wide legs. Do those barrel leg ones? I haven't got any barrels with Jane. You have to be 8 foot 4. I think the barrel's unforgiving on the slightly shorter lady. But you do see them out about. I would look like an actual barrel. No, I think the barrel... You have to be 8 foot 4. I think the barrel's unforgiving on the slightly shorter lady.

But you do see them out about... I would look like an actual barrel. Okay, well, let's rule out the barrel. But if anybody's got any other thoughts on current jeans, do let us know. These are very nice. They look really nice on you. And you're wearing them with a boot. I am wearing them with a boot cut the way it's meant to be. See, I've thought of everything. I've actually put myself together today to come into work. I don't know who I'm trying to impress, but it's just it's probably you Anyway, thank you for noticing. She didn't I told her Back to the serious issue that was raised by a pregnant emailer last week who we didn't name and this is a woman who Is about to have her first child with a man. has, I mean, to be really honest about it,

she's just decided she doesn't like him that much. And she's worried about how things are gonna be. She's worried too about what the child will be like and whether or not the child might inherit some of her husband's less, well, the parts of her husband she's not that keen on. So we can't pretend this is the first time this has happened, but let's hear what you have to say about this. Anonymous says, I've got lots of thoughts on this. I've just picked one to try to pass

on. In my experience, which has brought apparently, what has brought apparently happy marriages crashing down after the arrival of children is not lack of romantic love or even a lack of mutual respect but a difference of values. When you have a child he or she becomes the most important thing in your life and the responsibility of bringing them up as you think right trumps every other consideration. If his or her other parent doesn't agree with the fundamental values which you want to be the backdrop to your child's life, you will not be able to

compromise because you love your partner. You'll feel so strongly about your child that you will fight. I've seen many friends, thinking about it, I actually mean women here, who've tolerated all sorts of nonsense from their husbands in the early years of marriage and relationships because yes, they do love do love them but they found a whole new power as mothers and they've turned into tigers good luck to your emailer says anonymous yep thank you for that we've got another anonymous email at responding to the same email from last week saying female Millennials are in a very very difficult position these days because men's faults are increasingly becoming more apparent to all of us. And now

that women have their own independence, who needs them? We're all really asking ourselves this question. The only real reason to share your life with a man is either because you love them, great, or because you want to have a child. Those of us with a loud clock ticking at the moment, but who just don't want to compromise their lifestyle and independence are facing an increasingly difficult situation. It's not just your 34 year old listener, it is everywhere. I have four very close girlfriends who all openly say they are only with their male partners so they can have a baby. One notable line about a questionable husband from one of my best friends was does he rock my world? No, absolutely not, but he'll be a good dad and I want a baby before I'm 35. This listener says,

I feel you judged your 34 year old listener, but please put yourself in her shoes. There's another reason aside from finances as why the birth rate is down. I think it is a good point. I think for lots of women, if they want to have a baby and they can't afford the other options, I mean the other options are basically do it on your own which is biologically possible but financially a huge commitment and then emotionally a huge commitment for the rest of your life. I fully understand that it's a very difficult situation and I think I have lots of friends whether they admitted it to themselves or not that they settled down in inverted commas because the clock was ticking. Yeah. And you know I think that does sort of create some difficulties a little bit later on. Yeah and I hope I don't think either of us intended to be judgmental of this 34 year old

listener we were actually just trying and I think we both tried to be fair to the man who was a part of this story but whose voice we were not hearing. And look, I didn't have my children until I was well into my thirties. So I absolutely get it. And yes, I did feel that my clock was ticking without question because it is. That's the other undoubted until we've evened out the whole biological clock thing, and we're not likely to are we, then it's always going to be hard of women who are probably out of necessity, out of this desire to have children, are going to make compromises without a shadow of a doubt. None of this stuff is easy.

No, it's not easy at all. And as you know, I've been through fertility treatment on my own. So I do speak from a place of experience of trying to answer that question, solve that riddle for myself. Although it didn't work out, you know, it wasn't successful. I will always be very, very glad that I tried because it answered a question for me. And I think that question would have been hanging over my head had I not tried. It was expensive and it was emotionally pretty gruelling but for me it was definitely the right thing to do and I think hopefully all of our listeners and everyone grappling with those

situations will find at least some I guess some avenue of action that makes them feel like they've taken some action to solve that question for themselves. Yeah, yeah. I think it's the... Whatever that looks like. Whatever it looks like, yeah. And there's no... Not everyone's guaranteed a so-called happy ending. They're just not and we have to accept that. I mean, we should also say that Anonymous does say that after a couple more attempts at men, she had a really nasty breakup she tells us,

she's moved on to a woman, she's having a first ever relationship with a woman, it's new to me, I'm 35 and it feels to say she says quite late to be learning a new skill. 35 is nothing, but the level of respect I feel from my female partner just astonishes me. I have never been treated with such thoughtfulness and kindness. Sometimes she says I burst out laughing at how surreal it is to be treated with such respect. This is actually both lovely and sad, isn't it? She says I'd love to hear from other listeners who've experienced something similar. There you go. So if you have moved on from maybe an unsuccessful line up of men,

it may not always have been the men's fault. We've got to get it out there and you're trying a relationship with a woman and it's working out better for you, you can let us know what you think. Absolutely. It continues to be Jane and Fee at Times.Radio even though Fee's on half term. Can I just change the subject slightly? Well can I just mention another anonymous emailer who just says, please reassure your listener that she will love her child regardless of her feelings towards her husband. As for

traits, as you said, in terms of nature, who knows from where their wonderful and unique personalities emerge and from nurture as their mother and most likely primary caregiver, the child will learn from her example as much as from her husband's. I went through a difficult relationship, divorce and tricky times with my ex's behaviour long after the divorce, to put it mildly, but I've always told my daughters I could never ever regret marrying their dad as I love them dearly and without their father they just wouldn't be here and in any number of ways they do resemble their dad in looks, in personality or in interests and I feel it's important to acknowledge him positively. I think that's absolutely true and

well done to you because that probably wasn't always easy but it's so worth doing. God I sounded pompous there but in a hopefully constructive way. Um wage thing. Oh. Do you know I've never done it? Have you? Of course. Of course. It was probably my favourite job ever. Really? Yeah, I loved being a waitress. Where were you a waitress? I'm sort of dressed slightly like a waitress today aren't I?

I'll have a flat white and an Eccles cake please. I was a waitress first in the local pub that I lived next door to when I was 15 and then in a slightly more upmarket country house hotel which I also lived very close to and then another version of the country house hotel. Yeah. Gosh, this is like the Arches. Yeah. Oh by the way, lots of emails saying why aren't we talking about the Beavers and the Archers. It's because I'm three weeks behind. I'm

determined to catch up. Sorry, carry on, Jo. That's absolutely fine. Waitress and Beavers and the Archers. That's the topic of today. I loved waitressing. I actually think it's a little bit like journalism in the sense of you just, you know, trying to make everyone happy, get everyone comfortable, put them at ease. I sort of felt like I was quite a clumsy waitress. I smashed a lot of glasses, dropped a lot of... I mean, I did silver service waitressing, dropped a lot of potatoes in people's pints. But I like to think that everyone had quite a nice time while I was messing up and I was, you know, quite personable. I got a lot of tips, so you know, and I just,

I quite like chatting to people. You know, wedding receptions, people are having a nice time. I just really enjoyed the social act. So weddings were your favourite thing? Yeah, I loved Wedchers' Sing at Weddings. Yeah, it was really fun. I mean, I think that's quite rare to really enjoy that kind of thing. I don't know. Honestly, it was the best job. Maybe you approached it in the right way and therefore you got your rewards.

I mean, it was terribly, terribly paid. I used to earn £2.50 an hour. God, I'm so sorry. I know. It wasn't that long ago, but pretty minimum wage, obviously. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I also used to burn myself a lot.

I've still got quite a lot of scars on my arms so I was just basically a walking you know walking entry to the accident book but but charming at that country house hotel country whose house hotel what was the most likely menu at a wedding breakfast oh there would be there would be a salmon option of course and there'll be roast beef yeah roast beef yeah right okay. Yeah. The food is quite nice. Pudding. Oh, profiteroles often. Maybe a cheesecake. But profiteroles, very popular option. Anyway, our listener Johanna says, Johanna, Johanna, Johanna. On the subject of weight-swinging, my daughter, having graduated last summer, finds that her first class degree qualifies for exactly that

in the current London job market. Yeah. Yeah. Johanna says anyway, she recently had a French family who kept asking her if she herself was French. Finally, she convinced them that she wasn't, but she was curious as to why they thought she might be. And the mammon of the family explained that she exuded French waitress. Well, that's a compliment. Yeah, she's worn it like a page of honour ever since.ajibana ever since. Do I exude French waitress?

No, but I can no longer, I'll now forever see you offering me profiteroles as I sit there slightly drunk at a country house. Yeah and I'll probably drop them down your back. Yeah, all my front. But I'd keep my dignity and I'd carry on celebrating the happy occasion. And I'd probably, you know, I'd get it dry cleaned. I'd give you an extra professor role. Oh, God, you are. You're such a lovely lady. What's this? Oh, yes, here we are. I've just returned home from a long yet enjoyable drive,

binge listening to several of this week's episodes. Sometimes that's the way to do off air, just binge it on a car journey. Like many listeners, I often want to add to the conversation but I never get round to it. Well today I've got a couple of topics burning a hole in my keyboard, so here I am. Firstly, I'll have you know that I'm a sprightly 50 and I've been rocking a chain on my glasses for at least a decade now.

Whilst visiting a trendy food hall with friends recently, a 20-something slip of a thing complimented my fabulous fashion accessory, which apparently she loved. I did try to explain that the chain is necessary and not a choice because if I don't tie things to me I just lose them, but that fact of life did seem a little lost on her. I don't have a bosom so I haven't experienced much difficulties with bounce." This is an issue that Fee referred to that if you were going to wear your glasses on a chain they might be going on a bit of a trip if you were blessed in the chest department. What if you were jogging? Well, she goes on to say, this is sadly also a bonus whilst out running alone at night in the dark. so that I hopefully pass as a man to the casual observer as I trot by, rather than the signaling

shocking pink that most women's running apparel seems to deem necessary. So actually that's a good point for you. Do you wear, is it true that you can only get running stuff for women in girly pink? No, I mean you can get bright pink things, but I've got one very bright pink top, but I mainly wear it so that I'm seen, rather than because I like pink things. It's just, you know, it's very visible. But yes, I mean, there is a sort of tendency

towards girly looking things, I think in all sportswear. Yeah, there is, isn't there? Yeah, I know I tend to wear black or gray, or you know, white or whatever, but there is a pink thing thing if I am going to run at five o'clock in the morning which sometimes unfortunately is the way the times work I try to be more visible. Yeah and of course that is just without I mean it's I feel like a broken record but that's just not something that male joggers have to think about. No. Well they might still get run over. I mean I don't wear colours because of safety in terms of other people.

They might still get run over. They might still get run over. Men in Lycra might still get run over. It's true. Do you know, I was just thinking women's sport is such a bit of change at the moment. I was in North London yesterday visiting my daughter and the streets were full because Arsenal played Spurs, but it was Arsenal women against Spurs women. And there were 55,000 people at the Emirates watching that. I mean, this is just, I mean, I gather it wasn't a very close game, I think Arsenal

won 5-0 or something. But I mean, that's, it is such, and it's so lovely to see loads of people in the red and white scarf and, you know, just really taking loads of families, young kids going. I know that, I mean, it obviously feels like a safer and much more inclusive environment. I mean, more power to them, I think it's brilliant. I'm slightly jealous that that wasn't available when I was... Would you think you'd have been a professional lady footballer? I would have been a relatively nippy, I'm going to say, I would have been a goal hanging

forward. Would you? Yeah, I wouldn't have been able to run up and down a lot. But you just waited for them to pass it to you? Yeah, I would have. Did you ever play football? Oh yeah, no, we all played. We played it in the park and stuff, but never at school. Should we start a Times Radio football team? Um, no.

I used to play at university. Did you? Okay. Yeah, and then I was briefly a ringer for the women's lobby football team. Oh yeah. When my friend Pippa Crowe, our esteemed political edge of the Guardian now, started a women's football team. It was really fun. It was really fun.

So a ringer as in you'd fill in any hole? Well yeah and also I wasn't in the lobby. Oh I see. I was allowed to go and play for them. I loved it. I would, oh come on, let's start a Times Radio women's football team. Well alright but can I be, I'll be in goal. Yeah okay.

Just leave me there and hopefully nothing much will happen to my second topic says Tracy. I think we can definitely name Tracy my your reflections on the man child in the Oval Office. I'm just not going to name him for the next couple of days. I think we all deserve a break. Reminded me of my first job after uni. I was a clerk for an all white aging, ageing male board. One member, well onto his second younger bendier wife and associated family, announced his need to leave a meeting early because he had to go to do school pick-up. This announcement received a round of coups, clucks and, isn't't he wonderful in reply, except from the single older female

who happened to be sitting next to me, the then young and bright-eyed and rather wet behind the ears Clark. She leaned towards me and whispered, imagine their response if he was a woman. This was 30 years ago and hopefully things have improved, but I fear they haven't really, as I am still having similar conversations with my now younger colleagues from the other end of the spectrum. It does appear that the whole domestic work is still work debate appears alive and well with Gen Z too. After throwing ourselves under horses, tying ourselves to railings and setting fire to our bras, I do now wonder when it will ever, ever change that narrative. Yeah, I don't think it ever will. 30 years, I'm just trying to imagine 30 years ago a man saying he was off to do a school pick-up.

I mean, I'm kind of amazed it was even once. Well, she points out, you see, he was onto his, I love this, his second younger Ben to your wife. I knew someone who'd interviewed Melinda Gates here and Bill was still married. Yes. And she told this great anecdote about how one of their children was quite talented musically and so was going to this special school, you know, to do music. And it was sort of 45 minutes drive there, 45 minutes drive back. And so Melinda had been doing the bulk of the drop-offs and Bill sort of said, you know, do you know what, I'll do it.

I'll do a couple of days a week. And apparently, after about a week of Bill it. I'll do a couple of days a week. And apparently, after about a week of Bill Gates turning up to do school pick up and drop off, there were so many dads at the Gates doing school pick up and drop off. Because can you imagine? Bill Gates, Bill Gates does drop off. I think mate, you can probably do drop off a couple of times a week. I mean, but it is about leading by example, isn't it? You know, it's men taking paternity leave, all of those things. If you've got to see it, you've got to see other successful men doing it

in order to start to think that you can do it. But yeah, I think most wives would be like, I think Bill Gates has probably got a bigger job than you and he's doing drop off. Well, I always think, you know, when you see the classic bloke on a plane reading the Financial Times and it's a family holiday and the three kids are playing up and the Mrs is looking really harassed and he's just carrying on reading the Financial Times. I always just think if I don't recognise you, then you're not famous or particularly successful. You

really don't need to be reading the Financial Times on holiday. Help her out with the kiddies. Come on Clive, do your bit. That's what, Anyway, Clive will be emailing in tomorrow. That's the first bit of offence I've caused this week and it is, let's see, it's 12.30 on Monday so I was way, way behind in the offence causing stakes. We can have one more email before we do. Our big guest Sanjeev Bhaskar, very excited about this. I'd like to read Claire's email to Jane Infee. I can see why Freud gets a bad rap. Many of his theories were strange and plenty have been discredited by modern healthcare professionals but as someone working in mental health I do feel a bit bad for him that it's become

the norm to dismiss him entirely. I think it's important to acknowledge his foundational contributions. He did pioneer talk therapy, introduced the unconscious mind as a key driver of behaviour, and developed concepts like defence mechanisms and transference, which are still central in therapy today. He also helped separate mental health from purely medical or moral explanations, moving treatment away from institutionalisation and outdated ideas like hysteria, which is good. His emphasis on early childhood experiences shaping personality

and mental health laid the groundwork for modern developmental psychology. While his ideas have evolved, his impact on therapy is undeniable. Anyway, Claire says I just wanted to challenge the idea that he's all bad, or presumably that everything is penis led. He shapes so much of what we take for granted in mental health today. You see, we have now become the kind of podcast where people feel able to email in about Freud. Yeah. And it's not all beavers and bottoms. We are actually surprisingly intellectual. And thank you. It doesn't surprise me. Well, it occasionally surprises me. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that one to the

party, to the podcast party and thank you to Danny for the fantastic drawing. I absolutely love that. Dora's there, my favourite M&S Wensleydale and carrot chutney sandwich, my freedom pass sadly. It's a mixed bag. And a mention of Avanti West Coast and yes perhaps you like me struggled to get back from the North West on Saturday because of signalling problems. I tell you what, Jane, I honestly am going to write an epic poem about the times I've spent travelling between London and Liverpool and the other way round. Have we not heard of anti-West Coast and listen yet and come back to you with some vouchers?

Darling, I've spoken to the press office. And? Well, no, this was about an incident that occurred at Christmas. I'm not the first person to have because when they were Virgin Pendolino, the great Sheila Fogarty broadcaster I used to work with and well known on another radio network, she used to really have her struggles with the Virgin Pendolino and she had quite a lot of them on Twitter as it then was. And so I think they're probably, I think they're well aware of the lady broadcaster issue. Getting women who've moved to London back to Merseyside to visit their elderly parents is a cause of...

Maybe they'll just start putting a whole train for you every weekend. Well, there's quite a lot of us who are making that trip, so you probably could. It's not so much the getting there in my experience, it's the getting back. My big guest this afternoon is the actor and comedian Sanjeev Bhaskar, also the Chancellor of Sussex University. Now, he's best known for playing dogged, rucksack-wielding, D.I. Sonny Karn in Unforgotten, the complex police show about cold cases. The sixth series written again by Chris Lang is currently on ITV and ITVX. Now I've just got to the end of episode four and

honestly I have no idea who did it or why, but the series as ever has everything. There's the old severed limb in a marsh, a tantalising lineup of possible suspects, the culture wars and even the faint possibility of a romance for Sonny. So I asked Sanjeev how he relates to this story, the complex story that unravels over the course of the series. I mean I have read every script and this would be the sixth one that I've read. And I end up reading them as novels because I sort of half forget that I'm in it. So I am following the story on the page.

And so as it unfolds, I'm as intrigued as I am when I see the final thing, because obviously when I'm filming it, I'm not involved in the scenes where my character isn't there. So I'm seeing those scenes for the first time and seeing those actors that have come in give voice to the words I've seen on the page.

But I mean, I've never guessed who'd done it, as it were, from the outset. And that's from the first series to the sixth. So that either makes me a terrible detective in real life or it's just very good writing writing I hope it's the latter. Well it is brilliant writing I think I've seen all of the series and I think this is the most political isn't it would that be fair? I think that would be fair I think they've all they've all been political to a degree I think this is the one that has been most overtly political yes.

And are you are you happy with that I mean I should say for people who haven't seen it, there are elements that will certainly resonate with people who follow the news right now. Far-right politics, asylum seekers, it's all in there. A young man who's on the autism spectrum, social care is highlighted. There's a lot going on. I mean, it could be described as culture wars bingo on this one. Am I happy with it? Yes, I am, because I think that Chris Lang each time sets his stall out with an underlying theme and this time it was culture wars and I think it was reflecting how divided a

society we are and so you know he picked the the underlying subjects and therefore the people of interest the suspects if you were that will connect with that story so I think it is it is overly political I I know that some people are not happy with it, but also it does reflect the kind of discussions that are going on in society today. What people I think watch it for, yes, they like the plot and they like the intrigue and they like trying to piece it together, which I can never do either, by the way. But they really like your character and they're invested in you. And so how as an actor do you make a character likeable? Because Sonny is likeable. I want him to be all right. Now, why do I? Why do I care?

I mean, you might be in a better position to answer that than me. You know, it starts with the words on the page. And I think that one of the things that Chris Lang, as the writer, has done across all of the series is express empathy. And that's empathy towards the police, empathy towards the victims, and also empathy towards the police and empathy towards the victims and also empathy towards the perpetrator.

And you know his stories tend to contain a lot of depth I think to a lot of the characters and I think that the more we know about someone the better we are placed to have a feeling about them or assess a feeling or process it in some way. Um, so they're not very broad brushstrokes. They're fine brushstrokes I think he uses. And I think with Sonny as well from the outset, he wanted to paint him as an empathetic, hardworking police officer, as opposed to, you know, policemen with superpowers. I mean, I always felt that the police in this are remarkably unremarkable.

They're not mercurial in the way that a lot of other police officers are. And in fact, from the very beginning, we were told to watch 24 hours in police custody as a guide to tone, as opposed to watching other detective shows. And I think that's what comes across. And I think that's what makes Sonny likable, if you say he's likeable.

Well, there's a vulnerability about him, which is obviously down to your acting ability as much as the writing. There are no car chases, you don't run in Unforgotten, do you? I don't run generally in life, actually, Jane. I try to avoid that as best I can after the age of about 40. But no, I think it is about, as I said, I think the tension in it, you're right, it doesn't come from car chases and gunfights and things. It's a far more real world. And I've heard over the years from either serving police officers or ex-police officers that this comes closest to, at least tonally, what they do. And I think it's more about that. I think the police in this are represented as hardworking and focused,

and occasionally making mistakes, of course, but yeah, around that reality, I think. I think lots of us are just profoundly grateful to hear from a well-known individual who doesn't have an exercise regime. I mean, these, you know, these exhausting people who start the day with an egg white omelette and don't eat again till half four at night when they, you know, they might have a banana. And in the meantime, they've been steaming. And it's just exhausting.

You just don't bother. Is that really true? You don't do a thing? You know, I do the minimum probably. You know, I do exercise occasionally. I do try to be conscious about what I eat, but I can't be evangelical about it. I don't think I'm evangelical about anything actually.

No, well, that's good. Keep it that way. And to the people who said, Oh, Unforgotten will never be the same again after Cassie, the character played by Nicola Walker, was very dramatically killed off. I have to say it was heartbreaking. You have established a new working relationship with the character of Jesse played by Sinead Keenan. But I mean, how difficult is that to get a whole new on-screen working relationship going?

I mean, it's not difficult when you're working with you know nice people and good people you know people who are very good at what they do and Sinead certainly fits that description. You know in terms of it would never be the same again I think people were right because I think Cassie as played by Nicola was unique in that portrayal. But it's different and I think that in a way it reflects life. I mean we'll carry on after challenges and difficulties and losses and everything else and I think that particularly the last season, season five, was very much about dealing with loss in the same way that the character was in the same way that many of the audience were. And I think that was very smart writing from Chris to reflect that.

But, you know, life does carry on and it, you know, after we lose people, it's not the same. And in many ways, it shouldn't be the same. It should be different. Hopefully, we should be a little more insightful and wiser after, you know, challenges. But life does continue. That there will be a series seven weren't there? I mean I'm up for it. I mean the decision for that is unfortunately not in my hands and that will be down to the channel it will be down to Chris if he wants to write more and as I said the channel if they want to commission another one but I'd be more than happy. Sonny appears to be on I'm only at episode four but he appears to be on the cusp

of romance with the pathologist Leanne and I know you're from Ealing aren't you? I was born in Ealing yes. Yeah okay and you did have a kiss outside Ealing's revamped and extremely glamorous underground station which it's not what it used to be, it's really coming up in the world. Did you choose that location deliberately? No, that was complete coincidence and I agree with you. I looked at the frontage of that station and said I don't remember it looking quite as glad, it looks like an entrance to a nightclub or something.

I know, it's like the 21st century all of a sudden. It's extraordinary. Well, I think, isn't there an extra line that goes, does the Elizabeth line go there? Oh yes, it's very much not the place it used to be and yeah, it's absolutely brilliant now. So, I mean, you are best known for this. I mean, you've done loads of comedy stuff in the past on radio and television. Do you sometimes think that's enough severed limbs? I'd like to get back to making people laugh. Well, I mean, many people may say that I make them laugh in this. Yeah, I know.

You know what? It is, as you know, and as we all know, I mean, the the feeling of not wanting to go into work is possibly the most horrible feeling that you have to live with on a day-to-day basis. And so as long as I'm working with people that are lovely, I will look forward to going into work. And that is whether it's a drama, or whether it's a comedy, or anything in between.

And so I've just been incredibly fortunate, you know, from the outset to have worked on some terrific shows, but, you know, mainly with terrific people. It's that great quote by Maya Angelou, which I kind of live by, where she said, you know, people may forget what you said, people may forget what you did, people will never forget the way you made them feel. And I think that that works both ways,

you know, both positives and negatives. I still remember the kids who were horrible to me at school, and I remember the kids who went out of their way to be nice. And so I continue to be incredibly lucky in what fate brings me. Yeah. What kind of horrible were they? I mean, every kind of horrible.

I mean, my school days, particularly towards the end, weren't particularly pleasant at all. But, you know, I survived them and I learned from them and they've all kind of contributed to who I am today. So, you know, whether the good things and the challenging things have all brought me to where I am right now talking to you, and that's an incredibly fortuitous place. So I have to embrace all of those experiences really.

But yeah, it was the usual thing. You can guess. Well, I can guess but I'm sitting here as a white person who hasn't been on the receiving end of that kind of, you know, well, I haven't been on the receiving end of racism and I can't, you know, it's no good me pretending that I have because I obviously haven't. And I'm, you know, about a similar age to you, I think, actually, and I do remember that at my primary school, we had, we did have one black boy and then towards the end of my time there, we had some Ugandan Asian refugees. And, you know, I'd love to tell you that we were all nice to them, but we weren't.

Because people weren't. And I think about that. And I'm sure you also think about what happened to you. I mean, you know, for me, I mean, race was only one element of it. I mean, the other thing is that, you know, kids are kids. And so within that, that desperation to be part of something, to be included in any kind of group, as it were, to pick on the people who are different. I mean, all of those things just happen anyway, at that kind of age. I wish it was just that age. I mean, that happens beyond that now. But in many ways, I do see it as fortunate because I was sort of in the unique position that I got isolated by the Asian kids as well as the white kids. And so it forced me to rethink about who my tribe were. So when people kind of said your people or your community, I had to redefine that for myself. And that community ultimately became other people who were compassionate and creative.

And so I found my tribe. I was very, very lucky in that respect. But being isolated by white kids for being Asian and Asian kids for, bizarrely for me talking to white kids, which is how it kind of emerged and spread at that time. Left me quite isolated at the time. But as I said, I look back on it and actually it was a gift. It was a gift to actually bring me to defining for myself my own narrative fairly early on.

But if only people who were going through similar experiences now Could understand that as they go through life chances are things will get better for them Because they probably will if like you they do find a community that they can very much feel a part of But when you're growing up, you don't always know that to you. Well, you don't know it You don't it's something. I mean in my capacity as Chancellor of the University of don't. It's something, in my capacity as chancellor of the University of Sussex, it's something that I try to remind the students on graduation day, which is that all of our futures are unwritten.

And we rely on planning and things to give us an idea of what that future is going to look like. But plans change. And so a lot of people fill that unknown future with fear. Whereas in reality, one of those futures may be worse off than you are now, but in another one, you may be better off. And then if you kind of look at your future

as one of possibilities and then make your decision, then it's not a decision based on fear. It's based on possibilities. And because I've lived that, at least I know that, you know, experientially. Sanjeev Bhaskar and Unforgotten. Have you finished it, Jane? Have you watched it? You haven't. Do you not watch it? I don't watch an awful lot of television while it's on television, live television. I watch it on ITVX, darling. I didn't watch an awful lot of television while it's on television, live television. I watch it on ITVX darling. I didn't watch it on terrestrial.

I'm just out a lot. Right, you can see why Jane. I'm surprised in fact that you've got enough time in your diary to do the podcast this week. You're not out now are you? It's half twelve, I mean even I've got my limits. OK, she'll be going out for lunch soon. Join us tomorrow. It's Jane and Vy at times.radio. We appreciate your every contact.

Trust me. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music