Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The voice of Gen Z?

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

Jane and Fi talk to author, artist, feminist and influencer, Florence Given about what it's like to be labelled the 'voice of Gen Z', her feminist journey, and social media which she explores in 'Girlcrush'.Her new book, and debut novel, 'Girlcrush' is available now.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Emma SherryTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, it's Wednesday, welcome to Off Air with me Jane Garvey and me Fee Glover. Now, we have a packed edition of our off-air podcast today containing an interview with Gen Z spokesperson Florence Giffen, although she's sick to death of being called a spokesperson for Gen Z. It got us off to what could have been a negative start. It could have been difficult. We recovered in that interview, I think. Yeah, but you retracted it well because you noticed her slight squeal.

Well, I heard. I didn't just notice it, I heard it. But also, I have to say, there are worse things to be called than the poster girl of a whole generation. Well, we had worked out that I was officially a boomer and you are Gen what? X. Yeah, which is the born after in the late 1960s. Yes.

In your case, the very late, she said carefully, 1960s. I was only just before the moon landings. Yes, okay. And it does make a difference, I think, doesn't it? So I was a boomer because I was born just in 1964. Yeah, I am definitely a boomer, but only just. Yep, stay with us, it gets better. No, no, it won't necessarily. There's also something I want to mention. You know the lovely story about the cat with no genitals? Well, I mean, it's a story about a cat with no genitals. Is it lovely? Well, it is lovely because the cat, it's a kitten, never been discovered before, apparently.

I mean, you're right, because you pointed out, in a rather cynical way, there must have been loads of cats with no genitals. They just haven't found them. Well, it's just you haven't checked all of the cats in the world. Well, I thought it was very sweet. It was staring out at me from the Daily Telegraph and, let's face it, there's not

always a lot of, sometimes a little absence of kindness in that organ. But there was Hope, that's the kitten's name, and even better, Hope's been adopted by a student, so she's sure to be, no, she, not she, is she? They.

They will be very well cared for, I'm sure. And a lot of people might be thinking, well, can Hope go to the laboratory? And the answer apparently is yes. Okay. Is Hope a her-meow-phrodite? I'm glad you're pleased with that. Pathetic.

You've got to stop throwing shade Also another story in the Telegraph Yes Oh gosh Archers is obsessed with teenagers Three to five times radio This is a story from Radio 4's Feedback I understand you're making an appearance

It's funny with us we've left the BBC, but we're never that far away from it, spiritually it would seem. Actually, I was thinking about it today. I started my career at Radio 4 by having to appear on feedback because people were so annoyed that I'd arrived on the network. I'm ending my career at Radio 4... Appearing on feedback. ..because people are so annoyed I've left the network.

That's a very beautiful full circle being achieved there. So, yes, if you're a fan of Feedback, it's excellent. Andrea Catherwood is now the host and you can hear Fee on that over the weekend. But this is another story about people have been writing to Feedback, which is the Radio 4 Carpers show, to complain about too many teenage antics on the Archers. Now, it was only a couple of weeks ago that people were worried there was going to be some sort of group sex activity in a hot tub in Ambridge.

I listened to that episode. I'm here to tell you no orgy occurred because there have been sex scenes on The Archers with sound effects, which honestly troubled people for years afterwards. I'm not surprised. No, I'm not surprised either. There was nothing like that on that occasion. But there is, I think, a really good story at the moment,

a good storyline about a teenager who's got pregnant after what was exceptionally casual sex at a rave or just after a rave. And she is really wrestling with what to do about it. And actually, I think it's been really well done. So I don't agree with people complaining about these storylines in shows like that i think it's really important that these stories are played out in in real time almost i think they're very good at doing stuff like that absolutely staffing sister garvey thank you for drawing our attention to that i think we should graze across some other should we talk emails rival broadcasters as well

this one comes from hazel rolston who says i've been a listener for a long time now and i'm really enjoying hearing you both on times radio i particularly enjoy your insightful questions interviews and reflections hey ho i've been listening to your podcast with michael palin and i thought i'd mention a netflix series that i enjoyed recently all about North and South Korea which I wondered if you'd have time to enjoy too and Hazel goes on to say that she's had a period of lengthy illness and have whiled away many an hour on the sofa underneath an amazing fleece electric over blanket it's not all bad that sounds like quite a cozy way to get better anyway she says I came across this series and I've now watched a few mostly South Korean ones.

Another amazing one is The Extraordinary Adventures of Attorney Woo. Have you grazed into the K-pop and the K-drama and the K-romance? I haven't, but I know I probably should have done. Yeah, I think you should. That sounds interesting. I'm going to make a note of that from my very important Radio Times column about television. Yes, because that's one of the most famous exports of K culture.

Oh, well, I really will watch that. Underline that. I found the Below series crash landing on you, fascinating regarding the contrast in North and South Korea. And I found my ideas really challenged and came away with a real sense of endearment and affection for the people of North Korea. And it was interesting yesterday, wasn't it, that Michael Palin did say that he, you know, if he was a slightly not as advanced in his years person, then a life in North Korea might not have been so bad. And I think we've just got this kind of blanket thing. Yes.

Where we can't possibly imagine it. But Hazel, thank you for the recommendation. Always happy to hear some of those. Toilets is something that interests just about everybody. And Kath says, I'm really enjoying our fair. Greatly relieved when I found it after the sad last day of the final Fortunately episode. Further to your toilet stall quirks,

I thought I'd tell you about mine. Since I was a child, I could only use a loo if people are nearby by putting my fingers in my ears. If I can't hear any noises, then no one else can. It works well. I would recommend it. Kath, that's not right. I mean, I hear what you're saying. She can't hear you. Get your fingers out of your ears. Anyway, look, if it works for her, that's fine.

Yes. But I know some people do have a very genuine thing about not being able to use the loo when other people are in the vicinity. Well, somebody quite close to me can't use a public loo at all. No, it's quite common. Yes, and that has

proved to be a little bit complicated when trying to see family members in Scotland. Sorry, the person's in Scotland. Have we now identified them? No, we haven't. Half my family's from Scotland. We'll be all right. Okay.

You were talking about choosing a store in the restroom, so Cher, who's one of our American listeners, this reminded me of something. Jane vowed to out the phantom crapper of Broadcasting House. Did she ever complete the quest? I'm afraid I didn't, because we were never able to actually find the culprit. All I'll say about the phantom crapper of Broadcasting House,

who, for new joiners, was someone who used to make a complete mess Oh I'm feeling a bit unwell No but it really annoyed me And it was a long story I put up a sign It was taken down I felt so angry that the cleaners were expected to clean up

After this person That I put up a sign saying don't do it And then that sign was taken down And I was spoken to by Workplace Because I'd put up a sign saying, don't do it. And then that sign was taken down and I was spoken to by workplace because I'd put up a homemade sign. Anyway, you're really enjoying this story, aren't you? It's not even a new one to you.

You know this. But what was interesting during lockdown, when I was still going into work, was that the phantom crapper was absent. So they weren't an essential worker, which suggests they may have been management. Or a presenter. Who wasn't in the building.

Florence Given is an author, artist, I'm putting my fingers in my ears, is an author, artist, influencer, podcaster, and the young woman sometimes called the voice of Gen Z. Her first book, Women Don't Tell You Pretty, sold by the truckload and was the gateway to feminism for an awful lot of young girls. And her new novel Girl Crush is out now. She was on our programme this afternoon and we started by introducing her as the voice of Gen Z, a title she had been given.

She shrieked and she explained why. I think it's something that we do that just doesn't, it just doesn't really mean anything. I think it's a lot of responsibility to put on a person for someone that just wants to speak their opinions and share things that hopefully resonate with a lot of people. Well, listen, I would love to be called the voice of the boomers. Last of the boomers. The voice of the last of the boomers. Yeah, I'd take that. I'd absolutely love it. So Florence, just for people listening who don't know you, lots of people will, but some won't be quite so certain. So your feminist

awakening occurred when? Would you say it was at school or a bit later than that? Yes, probably in school. I think I had it quite early on when I was in school. I was in a group of friends and I'd actually stopped wearing a bra. And then people started to talk about the fact that I wasn't wearing a bra anymore. And I was actually not wearing a bra um and then people started to talk about the fact that I wasn't wearing a bra anymore and I was actually not wearing a bra not for feminist reasons not because uh I wanted to burn my bra or anything like that it was just because my back was hurting and then I became very aware of my body and then it wasn't until I went to uh start going out at the age of 18 that I noticed men groping harassing me and my friends in nightclubs but all of my friends were older than

me so they'd been very used to it and experienced it quite a bit and I was the only person who thought that it was absolutely insane that this was so normalized so I started to put it into my artwork and my illustrations started sharing them online um and gained an audience through people relating to the same issues and it was really empowering and also very disheartening to realize that a lot of women were feeling the same way right and indeed had felt that way for hundreds of years. I mean, let's be honest, none of this is new, is it? Unfortunately. No, I was interviewed by someone recently who was twice my age and she said that her journey coming into feminism

was almost exactly the same as mine and that it's quite sad that nothing's changed and that a lot of women come into this space through rage and through the same experiences. It's really funny you mention that because I have tried to have this conversation with my parents, actually, who are well into their 80s. I'm 58, they're into their 80s.

And they're not in any way malicious people, but I don't think they're unusual in being from their generation. They don't really get it because they perhaps didn't get the opportunity to question this status quo at all. It was simply that there was one way of living that was available to women and another way for men. Yes, I totally agree with you. I also think it's become quite a privilege to even have time to sit and reflect on things. I think we all gained some of that during the pandemic where a lot of us realised a lot about ourselves because we weren't working a nine to five. A lot of people weren't working a nine to five that were sent home for lockdown or quarantine.

I think a lot of realisations came out of that. I definitely agree with you that not all, even with my parents you know I have a very good relationship with them but there's some stuff that they don't understand yet and I don't think it's malicious and I think that it does take a lot of compassion to be able to have those conversations with people who don't come from a bad place but come from a fixed mindset of things because it's all they ever knew and I think you do have to have some compassion when it comes to talking about this stuff because otherwise people just end up doubling down on their original beliefs. Doubling down and worse actually I mean you could argue couldn't you Florence that we've never been in a more worrying place with the polarisation of genders and also if you look at how many men clearly haven't got the memo or spent the time reading it, you know, young men are sometimes they're dubious

allies of feminism. Do you find that in your own generation? I think there's a new trend with my generation of men learning about this stuff, but using it just to further their agenda to either date women. I've had it even with my book. I've had men use my book to get women into bed with them or to date women. And I feel like the more that we are using this, and of course not all men, but there's a new trend with men learning about feminism that they're using it to further their agenda with women.

And we really want to say not all men. It's so important to say not all men, it's so important to say not all men, because do you know what, sometimes I think it must be so difficult if you're a nice, kind, compassionate, empathetic man, you know, listening to conversations, which make you out to be part of something that is really deeply troubling. But I wonder, you know, when you're writing your novel, when you're writing your self-help book, is there a bit of you that thinks, I've got to make this appealing to everybody across the spectrum and get away from the kind of the feminist tag? I think the feminist tag can be limiting for all the reasons you're saying,

you know, because it doesn't appeal to some people. But the title of my first book, Women Don't Owe You Pretty, was was aimed at men and a lot of men have found a lot of empowerment from the book even just on their own level of their their understanding of boundaries but also I've met I've met men in pub gardens who have read my book um it was after everything that happened with Sarah Everard their girlfriends around them had asked them to read my book and they'd started uh charities and companies and conversations with the people in their lives that have helped to get women home safely all of this kind of stuff I think that your my work can appeal to men but I feel like they need someone in their life to maybe introduce it to them I've always

tried to find a way not to water down my message because I don't think that it should be watered down that you know 90% of all violent crime committed to women happens to men or that most of the violent crime in the world is committed by men. I don't think that should be watered down. But to even get people to listen to those conversations, I think there does need to be a bridge between understanding and some ideas that seem so foreign and complex to people. understanding and some ideas that seem so foreign and complex to people.

Your artwork is really direct and really gets some quite complex messages over in a very, very easy to understand way, which, by the way, I'm not saying it's easy to do, because if it was, everybody would be doing it. And let's face it, you've done it. But there's one poster of yours I like, stop raising him, he's not your son. And there's a very stern-looking woman with her arms folded. And it does seem to me that there are an amazing number of women, and not just women, who seem prepared to settle for life with a man who is a sort of giant toddler, sort of forever infantilised. But I wonder whether it suits the woman as well,

or indeed their male partner as well. What do you think about that? I but it's, I wonder whether it suits the woman as or indeed their male partner as well. What do you think about that? I think it's a really interesting dynamic, where essentially, I saw something maybe a year ago, where it was in a woman's magazine, and it was promoting this idea of chore play, where to get your husband to do house chores, you will offer in exchange for them sex and I thought that that was so strange that when it comes to household labor and sharing the tasks and all of this stuff that not only does it hurt the woman to have to constantly pander and pick up everything after a man it also hurts the man because why are we treating men like they're these bumbling oafs that don't know what they're

doing they're very capable of doing this stuff and I think that it's a way to often, you know, I've seen that on the online, some men are purposely not doing the grocery run well, because they know that their wives will just say, oh, I'll just do it and I'll take over it. And I think that perhaps there's this just lineage of this always happening that we kind of cling to. Yeah, I wonder too about women's capacity to be territorial about some domestic stuff. And don't get me started on childcare because that's a whole other... Don't get her started. No, don't. Don't get me started.

What do you think about that? I know you're not at that stage yet, but would that concern you in the future? If I was with a man in the future, I guess that would concern me because of the roles and all the stuff that people say about, you know, oh, does he babysit the children? Can you get your husband to babysit when it's his own child? It's not something I've experienced, but yeah, I guess that would be something that I'd be concerned about in the future if I was to ever be in the situation. But I know that a lot of women go through that.

That's Florence Given talking to us earlier. You can hear the rest in just a moment. Welcome back. Now we've been talking to feminist author, artist and mega successful influencer Florence Given. We talked to her about her new novel Girl Crush and the dual existence of her protagonist. It's a woman called Ertha and she's on the social media site called, in the book, Wonderland. I really wanted to kind of bring what we're currently experiencing with Instagram and with social media and bring it into the future and kind of put it on steroids because I think people can draw comparisons a lot easier with their own life when something is exaggerated. I feel like it's a lot easier to project yourself into. I wanted to kind of show what it could be like in the future.

The social media at Wonderland is a lot more dystopian, I feel, and people are actually like plugged in to their devices in this fictitious setting. Yeah, but that is the likely, that's the future, isn't it? That's probably only a couple of years away, let's be honest. Absolutely, yeah. And do you anticipate that you will stay forever on platforms or will you in five years time be living in a yurt somewhere in the Hebrides? I feel like my boundaries with social media have enabled me to get the best out of it. It's small things like making sure that my phone is charged outside my bedroom before I go to bed. there are definitely times where social media has consumed my life probably during lockdown I think social media is such a beautiful space I wouldn't have a lot my I wouldn't have my career without it no no that's true yeah yeah I wouldn't have all of this amazing opportunities that have

been brought to me through using it to kind of share my message you get to be your own creative director you get to share your work out there um and what I was really interested in doing with the book was sharing a journey that was different to mine where I've been very supported by the people in my life and the people around me and in the industry uh with my career but with this novel the girl goes viral for making a video um and she's taken advantage of and I think that I'm seeing this happen a lot with people now is that we're holding uh girls who go viral on TikTok or Instagram to the same standard as politicians and that we demand that they constantly talk about this latest issue. And I've seen a lot of it online. And I think it's interesting. I'm just

really interested in social media. It is also another world in which women are held to a different standard. Yes, exactly. Just another dimension for it to play out on. And you're very, very open about sex and about sexuality. And Arthur in Girl Crush is bisexual. And you talk about the dynamics of going on a date with a woman, going on your first or the character's first date with a woman. Tell me about that. Yes, it was really exciting for me to write a protagonist that was bisexual. I read this book a few years ago that has a swear word in the title. So I won't say it, but it was a, it was a short memoir and I'd never read anything like it.

It was with a bisexual protagonist. It was dark. It was funny. It was queer. And I, I'd never written fiction before and I wanted to write something that made people feel that same way. So yeah, going on your first date with a woman, it's particularly if you've only ever dated men, it's a completely different experience. And I just wanted to write something that reflected that experience because a lot of people might.

I'm very tapped into my audience and a lot of them were coming out as bisexual during lockdown, the more that they'd spent time with their own thoughts and realized that a lot of the stuff that they were doing before was because they weren't attracted to men. And I just thought it was interesting to write something that I would have loved to have read when I came out also. That is interesting. I've not heard anybody say that as one of the side effects of lockdown.

Yes, a realisation of something quite deep like that. Florence, there's a lot of chaos in the novel, isn't there? But I wonder whether actually you feel quite in control of things yourself. I mean, you're certainly a super saw away sensation, aren't you? I do feel in control of things myself. What was really fun about writing this novel was that I got to create messy characters. And I definitely have a lot of perfectionistic tendencies so being able to dip into this world where there was lots of chaos there was lots of drama and also the characters weren't completely politically correct themselves because they're human beings and they're flawed I think with my first book Women Don't Know You Pretty when I was talking about all of this

uh all of these beliefs and all of these long-held things that women have viewed about themselves through patriarchy through racism transph transphobia, homophobia. It was very much this politically correct guide on this is this, this is that, but I wanted to create the characters that were making the mistakes along the way and being a bit messy themselves in their own lives. It was quite liberating to do it. I don't think anyone should hold themselves to a ridiculous standard of like moral purity because it's just another thing that women are aspiring to. You no longer have to just be pretty and be intelligent. You also have to have exactly the correct opinions or else. Yeah. So you're in a very good place yourself in a position of,

you know, quite a lot of power. I wonder how you look at women like Jane and I, who are old enough to be your parents and then some, and have tried to fight the good fight you know along the way do you feel a lot of similarity with us you know approaching this interview I was a little bit trepidatious about talking to you because oh wow you seem to you know you're you're just an extraordinary young woman but I wonder how you feel about talking to us that's so interesting that you that you had trepidation. I normally have trepidation with older women because I've had experience where older women don't want me to be in the same spaces as them. But I try to treat every... What do you mean by that?

I think it's a case of with feminism. I'm a young feminist. And so I have a lot of respect for older feminists. And there have been places where I suppose people think that you need to have had a lot more life experience to talk about these things yeah but I suppose that would mean that the only good feminist was one who was 110 and that's totally with you I'm totally totally with you but I found it interesting to hear you say that you had trepidation but I'm I'm I have total respect for older feminists, wouldn't be able to do this stuff without you. Yeah. Am I allowed to be then, without patronising you, slightly worried about not just you,

I'm using you in the general sense, the future of a generation who are so open about sex, my worry as an older woman is there might come a time in your life where you don't want sex to be the first thing someone sees about you yes I think I'm actually I think I've I've been able to take personal risks of my vulnerability to make sure that other women feel liberated to talk about exploring their bodies for pleasure uh coming out as queer all of this kind of stuff but I've definitely uh probably over the last year or so, stopped sharing information about my private life online. I've actually never shared

anything unless it was very much in the past. And I'd either healed from it, recovered from it, juggled about it, already spoke about it with my friends. But there have definitely been some times where I've shared things, had them repeated back to me by strangers on the street and realised that I have no one to blame but myself. Crikey is the right word there. So what's next for you, Florence? I mean, you've had a best selling novel and a work of nonfiction. So what about, I don't know, screenplay? What would you think? Yes, absolutely. I would love to go into screenwriting. I want to write books for the rest of my life. I have a lot of books that I want to write,

some in 10 years, because I do think they require a lifetime of experience to write them. But yeah, writing books, writing. I'd also like to go into fashion someday as well. That was Florence Given. And we did enjoy talking to her. Do you know what I did?

I said yesterday on the podcast that I was a little bit trepidatious about the interview. And I did try and think about why really after we'd done the podcast yesterday and I think it's that thing of never wanting to appear really patronizing to a younger person but also wanting to try and work out a way of saying you're young and things might change for you actually just because I remember my 23 year old self nowhere near as accomplished or forthright as Florence Given but I that 23 year old needed lots of things around her actually from other decades and generations and I think yeah but did you realize it at the time no and

that's what that's what makes me trepidatious I don't think there's a very easy link actually between generations of women at the moment. I think we're a bit disconnected, a little bit afraid of each other, maybe a bit competitive with each other, and certainly distanced by technology. That's just my house. That's just our production desk. And that as well.

No, I mean, you're right. At 23, you're much more certain about many more things than you are when you're older. Yeah. Which makes me wonder just how many doubts am I going to have at 85 or 80 or 90? Oh, my goodness. I'll be so riddled with doubt I won't be able to do anything. No, I think the tide turns, doesn't it? It seems to be.

The doubt thing seems to atrophy a bit and just be replaced by stubbornness. So I'll start going around shouting bring back hanging well i mean there's i can see a little bit of the turn already if i can be honest jane just eat overcooked veg and capital punishment and national service and plenty of time to watch television during the day which you've gone too soon on no i watch it no if i'm doing it professionally watching tv during the day i watch it on a laptop totally different thing very professional and i will recommend if anyone's looking for a new show to really get into the english which you'll find on

bbc television it's hugo blick directed and written by hugo blick and it stars emily blunt and she's out there in uh america um as sort of trying to track down the killer of her son i think people will really enjoy it the only thing about the english is just how incredibly good emily blunt manages to look in some of the most trying circumstances of the wild west her hair her clothes mysteriously immaculate. Everybody else looks awful. It's the Western one. Yes. Oh, I saw that. Yep.

Can't do a Western. I don't think you'll follow it. It's more for intellectuals. Yes, thank you. Thank you. We love hearing from you all, so please do continue to get in touch on email. Jane and Fee at times.radio.

You can tweet us while Twitter's still alive, at times.radio, using the hashtag Jane and Fee. And don't forget to follow us if you can and leave a review of the podcast, wherever it is you're listening to us right now. Go on. Go on, do it. I mean, do it if you want. I don't want to be too insistent. I'm the more laid back of the two of us.

Yeah, right. The podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now, you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.