Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The well trodden path from kilted yoga to Heated Rivalry

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

Warning! This episode covers sexual activity! Explicit sexual activity! Jane and Fi also cover getting your tonsils out in Dundee, lying-in hospitals, the Freedom Pass, and poking around... Plus, director Catherine Abbott discusses her latest film ‘Becoming Victoria Wood’. We’re taking suggestions for our next book club pick! The brief is: books that deserve to be re-read. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Not your department. It's not my department. Please don't bring it up with me. She has spoken. Okay. I really like it when Eve gets tough. Yeah. And she just delivers it very succinctly, doesn't she?

And you've been told there, Jo. It takes no prisoners. I know where I stand. Okay. Lying in hospitals. Oh, my goodness. What a rich seam we're mining here. It's interesting though, isn't it?

It's very interesting, yes. So many of you have got recollections of something kind of akin to a lying-in hospital and Switzerland is going to come out of the next section well. And it deserves to at the moment actually. It's had a bloody horrible time, isn't it? Kim says, I've never heard of lying in hospitals. But when my first son was born in 1981, I was 24. And all the new moms in my local general hospital where I had him spent a week in bed.

And their babies were brought to them for feeding and changing, then taken back to the nursery. it was really quite restful. Imagine my shock when I was back there four years later to have my second son and they sent us home the next day. I had to hit the ground running with stitches and a husband that couldn't cook. Happy days.

Well, I hope the husband learned to cook or at, I tell you what, these days you can do those fantastic box meal things. You can do husbands who can cook. These days, they do husbands who can cook. Buy one off the shelf. But you can do the ready package meal things which those would be really good, wouldn't they, if you could just...

It should be called help a husband. Yeah, load them up. Load them up. But it's not, that is by no means the only one about lying in hospitals. And we'd be quite interested. Somebody will know the exact date of this, and they may well even have been involved in it. When was it decided that it should be NHS policy to send women home if they'd had an OK birth within 24 hours of that birth?

Who decided that and on what medical grounds? I don't think we can ignore the fact that this is the 1980s and it's a good illustration from Kim of the difference between 1981 and 1984 that was under Margaret Thatcher, it was the Tories and I'm not suggesting they're wholly to blame for that decision-making but they were running the country at the time and certainly running the NHS so maybe it was an area they felt they could have a go at. It's interesting though, isn't it?

It is. I think it's one of those things that if you did, the more kind of complex financial considerations around it, you'd find it was way more expensive in the long run to send women home too early because of all of the stuff that might happen that you then have to pay big bucks for afterwards. Catherine's in Northumberland. Lying in hospital sounds idyllic. Two days after having my third child, I was in a trampoline park.

It's never a good idea. Ever, actually, just after having children full stop. She was there with her two older kids. After having my son, I was keen to get home as soon as possible, though. My experience of being on a postnatal ward with other mothers, other babies, and worst of all, other people's partners was awful. Okay. I mean, that is another part of the whole thing.

I miss the peace, the comfort and the smells of my own home and my own bed. The midwives were rushed off their feet, so I felt I couldn't ask them for anything. Yeah, okay. Should we talk about Switzerland? Well, let's, but do you know what, it was one of the saddest, realisations after having children myself that I'd lost my international star jumping career this one comes in from Belinda Head

and it's sent from Belinda's phone how do you get that message you know people have that individual message at the end of of you know their sign off sent do you have one that says sent from Jane's phone gosh I don't think I do how do you change that

because for a while I think my sister had one that just sent sent from a shitty Samsung It's great. No shade to Samsung there who supply some very good products. Oh, well done. Just in case. Well done, corporate sister. Straight in there. Never rule it out. Good thinking.

In lieu of a wedding gift, says Belinda, my working class dad's parents gave my folks a promise of a stare at a private maternity hospital should they have children. I'm sorry, this isn't the Switzerland one. No, but I've got the Switzerland one. I'll see about this first. Okay. In December of 1960s.

I came along nine months after the great freeze of 62, but that's another story. Sure enough, my mum booked into St. Teresa's Maternity Hospital in Wimbledon, where a private patient could stay for a week for the princely sum of 36 to £37. NHS patients were welcome to for a lesser charge. Mum loved it. A whole week to recover. Nurses taking the babies away at night so moms could get some rest and generally be pampered. She said it was marvellous, so much so that she returned 22 months later to have my brother there and, recognized another mum who'd come all the way from South Africa just to give birth to her second child at the same place. Well, I mean, that just sounds, it just sounds lovely, actually Jane. Absolutely lovely. She goes on to say, Belinda, I can't speak to the current thinking on how healthy it is to take babies away at night and have them well cared for while birth mom sleeps. But I can say, I think my brother and I turned out okay and our lovely mom who died 20 years ago did swear by it. She said that when she went home at the end

that week, she had babies that basically slept through the night. Can that be possible? Can that be? But she do, Belinda makes a series of interesting points there and yeah, the current thinking is most definitely that baby stays with mother overnight. Baby stays with mother overnight.

And indeed until recently both my babies were staying with me overnight. They stuck to that. They come back in their 20s. So you're absolutely right. We're very much told that if the baby isn't very close to you in those early days, damage of attachment might occur.

So I think we might want some evidence that can turn that on its head too. I mean, isn't the wisdom basically that if the baby feels settled in itself, that's what you're aiming for? And so actually the slight myth that it has to be mum might not be true. So if the baby feels settled with the husband, goodness me. who doesn't or you may not be married. He's battling with the cooking. God knows. That's happened to all of us.

A dirty, dirty, dirty little relationship. No, but if that makes the baby feel settled, then that should be absolutely fine. So dad could, or partner could take the baby for, we're just calling it baby now. We're living in wives. I hope people who are perhaps just recently pregnant are getting a great deal from this,

because this is your ultimate guide to parenthood. All I'm saying is that maybe it's the extra weight of guilt that is added to a new mum and it has to be her when they say skin on skin contact it has to only be her skin. And quite often, you know, if you've had a really, really long birth he's just bloody knackered. You know, I think you crave a shower

and actually just a bit of space. You've had people around you and poking into you and all kinds of interventions. And it's weird, you do. You just want a bit of time on your own. So I think it's a bit mean to say that it's going to be bad for babies. you do that. Yeah, the whole gusly process starts

with somebody poking about, doesn't it? It's awful, honestly. Don't do it. What, sex? That's what I mean. Let's go to Switzerland. Finally, we've got there. Very long-time listener, third-time email.

I think you might be responsible for population decline at this rate. I'm solely responsible for it. No, I've done my bit. I've contributed. And I've closed up shop. Okay, it's not the review everybody would be. After listening to your conversation about lying in hospitals, I wanted to message you to tell you about my younger sister,

Catherine's experience, giving birth to my wonderful nephew, Louis, in Zurich in the October of 2024. Postpartum, she stayed together in a family room at a midwife-led birth centre with her partner and their newborn for almost a week. So the two of them were a hobby, hobby in there as well, with a comfy double bed for them both and home-cooked meals. I can remember her saying

how delicious the food was and it felt like a luxury hotel all covered by their basic Swiss health insurance. That just sounds astonishing. I live in Exeter. I don't have any children yet but if I do, I wonder how my experience here would be compared to hers in Switzerland.

I'm here to tell you, Becca, it won't be the same. It really won't be. I mean, this sounds absolutely, I don't know quite how. basic this Swiss health insurance was, of course, and I appreciate you're not an expert on the Swiss health insurance system. But what a good idea to have the double bed, both adults there, baby in there as well, and fabulous meals. Amazing. Yeah. What a really, really lovely start. Well, it does sound like one. Yeah. It really does. So do you think that we should add this to the

list of things that we need to do in our third age? We're going to start a campaign for lying in hospitals. I think the way that the NHS is going, they're bound to just have a spare pot of money and they'll be taking us very seriously indeed. Oh yes, I can't see any problems with our campaign. Dear Wes. We know you've got a long list of things and actually a lot of things connected to the maternity services. But how about this? I mean, I do think it's a point, I really want to know from somebody when did that thinking change on the whole mom who's just had baby must look after that baby because it's a hell of a responsibility to inflict on someone who's either been through hours of labour or some sort of surgical procedure or both in some cases. So God alone knows how you

feel as many women end up having an emergency cesarean after being in labour for hours on end. So it's a tough old business and please do let us know when that thinking changed and why it changed. And is it really about saving money? Yeah. I'll be very interested in those responses too. And also, because we do always try and broaden our horizons a bit, I'm interested in the experience of new dads and new partners, because of course, you know, the woman who has, and we can say that now, can't we? The woman who's just given birth definitely needs to be the centre of attention, but I think that sense of daunting responsibility for the partner is really underestimated too. And it must have been hugely beneficial because not every absolute twonk just went straight out on the golf course or had

three fingers of whiskey at home to celebrate the birth of their child. You know, many kind, decent men must have hugely benefited from knowing that their wife or their unmarried partner, don't say anything, and their baby were having a week being looked after by professionals whilst they got used to the idea, maybe tidied the house, cooked some meals. Yes. And got ready for the baby's return to. So all of that's important as well. Yeah, it is important. It's very interesting. They wanted the lady back, so she could be back in the saddle when she got home. Maybe not that, actually. Not for a while. There's a bit of production coming in here. Go for it. Eve drew my attention yesterday. I mean, she sits next to me in the office,

then you sit the other side of me. It's lovely. Honestly, it's not really work. Well, it is. She gave me the fiction paperbacks, top sellers, bestsellers from the Sunday Times last week. And it's just worth saying that Frida McFadden has got one, two, three, four, five books in the top ten paperbacks. Five. So she accounts. That was a record. It's a record. Thank you.

It's a record. Thank you. That's why you noted it. So 50%, a little bit of maths coming in there, of the top ten bestsellers written by the same woman. Have you read one yet? No. You should. You should. Oh my gosh.

No, no, seriously. Obviously she's hit. I'm not... I don't knock anybody's formula for success. What does she get right? She ends every chapter in a way that makes it impossible for you not to turn the page and do the next chapter.

Yeah. Well, I found that with Dan Brown and I read the Da Vinci Code. So the stories constantly move, but at the same time they're very contained in place. So, you know, sometimes a story will take you, you know, across the world, this amazing, you know, global diaspora of characters and stuff. And she doesn't do that. So like The Housemaid, which is an unput-downable bestseller, is one of those The Housemaid.

Yes, well, that's the number one. Have you read that? I have. Right. And it's currently a film, isn't it? It is. So it's pretty much set in one house. So actually, as a reader, you...

They're very, very easy to read. They're very easy to manage in your brain. It's got the unreliable narrator thingy and the twist and the turn. But they're set, you know, as so many great female writers, they set their world in the domestic, but with a slightly kind of sinister jarring to the domestic. And I think that's the secret to her success as well. It's a recognisable place for all of us.

Okay. The blurb says the housemaid, a living housemaid, uncovers unsettling secrets at a new employer's home. That's the number one. And number six, the housemaid is watching. A former maid moves into a dream home but is suspicious of her neighbours. Yeah. So you see what I mean? And number two is the housemaid secret.

A maid's new employer is hiding secrets behind a locked door. There is a bit of a bad way. I mean, the book that WOT isn't in the top ten is the housemaid, works for a completely normal couple and leaves very soon because there's no secrets. Well, you can write that. After you've written your memoir, poking around with Jane Garvey. Poking about. Oh, dear.

She's obviously got millions of fans. Yes, Jane. Just congratulating her. I just don't know where this is going. No, I'm just amazed. I think to have five of the top ten bestsellers written by one, author is a first and obviously phenomenal. Yes, yeah.

And I know that clearly she's mining, I mean, as I said, she is mine, rich theme of housemaid-based psychodrama. But we're all fascinated by staff. Why don't you read the housemaid and let us know what you think? Okay, I was going to go and see the film. I don't know why I didn't. Oh, I know, I went to see bloody Marty Supreme instead. That's a mistake. So I think the housemaid, the movie, has been really overlooked because it has been set against Marty

Supreme. I watched it. I had a preview of it because when you're away, I was interviewing Paul Feed, the director. Oh yeah. So I had that magical experience of watching it in the comfort of my own home with Eve's name across it all the way through. And you know how much we like that kind of movie. Yeah, that's a weird thing, isn't it? They water markets. They water markets so that you can't send it to your neighbours. Yeah. But you get used to after about 10 minutes. Yeah, you forget. But I've often thought how much harder that would be

if it was a person who we didn't like working with. Which is a really different? But is it a good film? Oh, it's a great film. Oh, okay. I mean, it's twisty, turny, it's got these amazing sets. So Paul Feig described it as Nancy Myers with Menace. Right, okay.

And it's a great description. Okay. And it's a brilliant, you know, it's two hours of, oh my God, I can't believe that. Right. You know, but at the same time, you can look at some nice. taps and a beautiful kitchen island. I mean, what's not...

Yeah, I think bad things happening in a house with spectacular taps. It's always watchable, isn't it? But I'll give you my copy of the housemaid so you don't have to add to that absolute, you've seen, to this lady's huge mound of money. Yeah.

I tell you what, I have been listening this week. I don't think... Are we allowed to mention podcast made by other people? Well, there's a really good series of podcasts about the book, The Salt Path, which I've been listening to this week, Tortus Media. They're well worth a listen. If you've read the book, and if that book, in particular,

if that book meant something to you, and I think a lot of people really cherish the salt path, and everyone will now know there is another side to the story. That's all I'll say about it. And I've listened to all six episodes of the podcast series about it. And wow, is all I'll say about that. Just quite, quite extraordinary. The lives people leave me.

Yeah, it wouldn't be a good time to submit a very deeply emperate. pathetic and winding memoir to a publisher's with it. You wonder whether the whole memoir business has been completely turned on its head now. Yeah, you'd need Karen from the lawyers in there right from the start. Karen would be absolutely, I think she's pretty busy at the moment with the author of the salt path. Surprise, she's got time for you. On guitar versus piano and men doing yoga, this one comes in from Liz, who says all the best and much love to Jane. I chuckled at your episode yesterday

regarding playing the piano versus other instruments I play the piano while my husband plays guitar and our children naturally gravitated to the guitars I agree much cooler and in fairness much easier to carry around but I have insisted they should learn the piano first to learn how to read music especially the bass clef

My husband is naturally Can you explain the significance of that? So the bass clef is the left hand So it's the bottom bit So it is, yeah, there's a, this is what's, I think, what makes it difficult to be brilliant at the piano until you've reached a certain grade. I think getting that brain function between my left hand is, you know, my eyes are reading that part for my left hand and that part for my right hand, I think is quite a skill. Oh, good God. And anyway, Liz, Liz says that her husband is naturally musical, unlike me, I'm like Fee in this regard, but he regrets not being able to read.

bass clef after turning to the piano as an adult and he is also a committed yogi. He got into yoga in lockdown now attends classes twice a week. He wears what I can only describe as pyjama bottoms and a t-shirt. He regularly falls asleep there and is known for crashing to the floor during headstands, but he loves it. Now Liz is our previous correspondent regarding my now husband meeting my father for the first time involving dead mice in the freezer of birds of prey and shooting baby rats out of the window. We welcome Liz back to the podcast.

Hard to forget that one, to be honest. Yeah. So men just wear pyjamas to yoga in answer to your previous query. Okay, although we did have an email about the Scotsmen who do it wearing kilts, allegedly, by some stream somewhere. Yeah, that's either asking for trouble or on Only fans. Gigi has been in touch about heated rivalry. Rau, let's get stuck into this. A small word on heated rivalry, which has consumed my mind since the beginning of December.

interested to see what you make of it, but I believe it to be a show that finally showcases a queer love story which is shot beautifully. Fair warning, the first two episodes are deeply sexual, but do stick with it until the end. Looking beyond that, it tackles some great themes, such as how we view masculinity and especially in sport. I hope one day to bump into one of you, as I now work as a mammographer at the breast unit at HCA right next door to your office. I often look up at Times Town and hope your day is going well. Toodle Pipp, says Gigi. Thank you very much.

Well, we never know. We might bump into Gigi. I still haven't seen heated rival, so I've nothing to bring to that particular party. Although, believe me, I am trying. I'm saving it for the weekend. Or am I? I don't know.

Everyone else seems to get terribly excited about the fact that there's lots of explicit sexual activity. It really puts me off, Jane. Well, don't watch it then. No, I just feel a bit intimidated already by it. And also, because I think, Eve, was it you? You said definitely don't watch it with your kids. Yeah, I did say that.

Yeah. So that's problematic. I'm watching it with my housemates and even that's a bit of an experience. Is it? It's just weird, isn't it? It is a bit odd, I suppose. You know, when a virulent sex scene comes on and there's somebody else in the room, I just find that very uncomfortable.

Is it even weird of just watching it by yourself, though? Yes, no, it's awkward. That's funny. You know, I said to my kids, I'm sorry, but mum's, watching some gay porn. Do you mind going to bed? I know it's highly recommended and as Jane said when you were talking to our TV critic Scott yesterday I'm glad it's got a plot and Scott did say yes it's definitely got a plot which that's what she says it does have a plot but it's getting overshadowed by

its reputation for its explicitly. Then is that any different to all the chatter about the Jilly Cooper adaptation that was on? There was so much. Yeah I had that same that same thought whether there was something a little bit, I don't think it's too strong to call it homophobic, but something a little bit ower going on that shouldn't be there anymore. Because yeah, I mean, there are very explicit scenes that you can watch of heterosexual activity. Indeed. And industry, I've never seen industry, poking around or poking about, just to be calling it, I've both come back to radio four sexual activity. Explicit sexual activity.

I haven't seen industry. Have you seen industry? No, I haven't seen the industry. Well, no, that's a cul-de-sac. But also, I just not interested in incredibly wealthy young people doing well. Stop them. I want to send lots of love and just companionable waves of thought to Amanda, who's in Hull. She's had a bit of a tough time. Her dad died on the 27th of November, and she just says it hasn't really, we've just not had time to get our heads around him having cancer.

He only had the first tests in August and we found out so fast. It just felt so horrific. I'm 41. She's got a nine-year-old daughter and a three-year-old son, she says. We also care for my future mother-in-law and I work for my family cleaning business, along with attempting to organise my wedding, which is in May. My life has gone from hectic normality to suddenly having so much to consider and come to terms with. Life just continued to bash along with his cremation.

being two weeks later after his death, then Christmas, and my son's on a waiting list for his tonsils to be removed. That was a year, but it may now be imminent. Not having my dad at my wedding is also making me feel really lost, and it's not helping hearing he'll be there in spirit when I would much rather, frankly, that he was actually there walking me down the aisle and there for the whole occasion. Amanda, it's really tough, and I will say that I felt a lot better last week

than I do this week about my mum. It's really weird. It just comes, it's not a, constant improvement is it with no it's sort of up and down and some weeks are easier than others I think there's an adrenaline that comes with the shock of the change in anybody's status so I think it does come in ways

and also it is just I know you can you can be told by people that there are some very clear stages of grief Jane but it's deeply deeply personal I mean apart from anything else it just depends on the type of connection you had with the person who died so the different times of day that you

miss them. You know, the different circumstances that will, to use the modern phrase, trigger you. But all of those kind of things, they are deeply, deeply personal. So, you know, it's hard to measure how you're feeling, I think, in those initial weeks. Definitely. I mean, I'm all still, Amanda and I are both actually very new to this, really. But, I mean, Amanda, to be told, your dad will be there in spirit on your wedding day. It doesn't help, does it? She wants her dad there. She doesn't want his spirit. It doesn't help.

Lots of love to you, Amanda. And good luck with the tonsils as well. I didn't know. People still have their tonsils out. Oh, my God. I don't know. I didn't know they did. Well, this is a key conversation I keep having with young Eve.

Oh, yes. Because Eve gets recurrent bouts of tonsillitis. And Dr. Glover over here says, get them removed. I had mine taken out when I was 24. And there caused me so much gyp in my adult life. Are they one of those human things you don't need anymore? No. I think you do need them.

They're the first line of defence, aren't they? You're looking at me like, I'd know, but I haven't had them out yet. I've got no idea. First line of defence against what? Infection at the back of your throat. But I think when they go wrong, they go wrong. How can they be a line of defence if they're the things getting infected? Yeah, it's useless.

But I think a little bit like an oil filter. You know, once it's lost its ability to filter, then it will keep making the rest of the engine go wrong. I've conjured that analogy or whatever it is, metaphor, out of the corner of my brain that actually knows completely FA about engines. So how is this?

Go to Monte Carlo in the cold. Makes no sense at all. There'll be doctors going, that's wrong. There'll be mechanics going, that's wrong. Stop! Anyway, I felt so much better after I had my tonsils taken out because I just had this low-level infection

all of the time, Jane. And it just keeps on coming back and I was smoking and drinking quite a lot in my 20s. Sorry about that. and it was and obviously Eve lives a Oh yes She's doing dry January Yeah very very clean healthy life

But I think yeah take them take them out in your adult life Well Is it what was that they used to give everybody Oh you were 24 you're a great woman Did you get ice cream after you? No So that's completely changed They make you eat very crunchy stuff

In order to get rid of the scabs really quickly Scabs? Yeah Yes So you're given, I was given dry frosties and told to eat that. Was this on the NHS? It was up in Dundee.

Yes. Nine wells in Dundee. You went to Dundee to get your tonsils out. My mum lived there at the time. I see. Yeah, both. So Lottie comes in, medium-term listener. You don't have to go to Dundee, Eve.

No, let's just send her there. Just for the hell of it. Just tell her. the only place you have to go to Dundee, or the only place you have to be horrible. I don't think nine wells would thank me for that. Medium term listener, occasional correspondent here. I want to be in touch, although I'm a devout daily listener.

I've been playing catch-up with the book club. I've just finished the Leonard and Hungry Paul episode and heard your call out for anyone who's purchased a suitcase at the departure gate. I have, says Lottie. Okay, I'm baffled. Why? myself, my husband and our two relatively small children were flying to Cyprus to stay with my in-laws

for a three-week stint. We had a 22-kilogram allowance per person, but as we had our hands full, we'd only taken two suitcases instead of the four we'd been allocated, one per person. Write this down, I'm going to check it later. Upon check-in, we were informed that it was a 22-kilogram allowance per bag, not person.

So both bags were over and we'd have to pay a fine. My Mediterranean husband, Does He Cook? Was outraged at this and insisted that rather than pay a fine We spend the money on a new suitcase So we did We then hastily redistributed the contents

of the original two suitcases As even as possible jumped on the flight Ever so slightly more out of pocket Than if we'd simply paid the fine But high on the thrill Of sticking it to the man That is a slightly hollow victory

But I understand the sentiment there Sodom Yeah on a separate note I went to drama school in my early 20s and pursuit of her career as an actress. We had one very detailed class on playing drunk. And the key takeaway, attempt to act as sober as you possibly can

as nothing screams intoxicated more than an over-the-top performance of sobriety. Isn't that brilliant? Okay. Gosh, that's a good tip. Yeah. Any budding fespian out there? Take note. I have found the email about kilted yoga.

As a Scotty's lived in Germany for a long time, says Elaine, who is reporting to us from snowy Germany. I was excited to see that there was a travel dock about Scotland on the TV just before Christmas. Now, it began with what the producers must have thought was a regular occurrence in Scotland. Two young men standing on the banks of a flowing river on the edge of a forest, only wearing kiltz while doing yoga. This was not what I remember young men in Scotland doing. It turns out these two have got an Instagram page called Kilted Yogi.

where they tease that they might show off their wares. It's well worth a look on a dull Wednesday. Elaine, thank you very much for that. I'm sorry that life in Germany can be a little bit dull on a Wednesday. Do you think that's the gateway drug we all need and a heated rivalry? I think it goes from... Actually, it's probably quite a well-trodden path

from kilted yogis to heated rivalry. I'm fascinated by kilt wearing amongst Scotsmen because you know more about this, I mean, the royals, the king is a right one for slipping into a kilt. He only has to cross the border by about half a mile that he's quite a kettlers, isn't it? Not to put too fine a point on. Do men sort of normal, occasionally football, Scotland football fans, men like to wear a kilt, they'll all be in America in their kilt.

God knows how they'll be received, by the way, but is it normal for a man to slip into a kilt? Just because? I think if you're a proper Scott then yes Just to go to the office on a Tuesday No so but as a kind of I don't know what would the English or Welsh or Irish equivalent be

But I think I remember being in New York One New Year's Eve and we went to party at a big hotel And there was a group of Scots guys there Who had put their kilts on And I remember you know the amazing Americans just love it. They just go so, so weak at the knees. Oh, okay.

And I did think that's just a pulling tactic, actually, going on there. Because then I did talk to one of them, and he didn't strike me as Scottish at all. So I think it can be abused very easily. But yeah, I think if you're a proper scot and you've got a kilt, then you do like to wear it with pride. I mean, I would imagine that if you are a proper scot, you still find it quite offensive that the king crosses the border

and somewhere, you know, around Peebles. He just starts to put on a little bit of dressing up in order to be better welcomed in the glens. I don't know how that goes down. No, I would be interested to know how it goes down. He has got, I suppose he has some Scottish blood. I'm just trying to think. Here's...

So the Queen... I think we're just on such... I think the Queen mother grew up in Scotland, so he's granny. Yes, but I think whether or not the... I think whether or not the Down South Royal family were ever entitled to go north of the border and say we own this too.

I think that is... That is Dickie. Deep waters. Yes. I think there's a monster in that, Locke. I wish there was, by the way, the lookness... I know, I'm with you on that. I don't want it to just be a big carp.

No, I really don't. Lottie is a member of the 5am club. She actually sticks to this and she swears by it. This is the lady who really... stuck it to the authorities about her suitcase. She says she sets her alarm for somewhere in the 5am region in order to enjoy what she describes as her favourite time of day. She listens to our podcast. She hangs and folds laundry and then reads a book until the kids' alarms go off. I think that's fine in the summer. I just wouldn't want to do it right now, to be honest with you.

Oh gosh, I mean, we're not on proper daylight till about 745 now. I just, I'm hating that. I want that to pass very quickly. I had to scratch my head to think of a useful self-help book, says Lucy. And then I remembered that I'd bought Shackleton's Way by Margot Morel for my partner when she was asked by her work to attend a leadership course some years ago. Now, she didn't encounter icebergs, leopard seals or any penguins in her workplace. When we're in a spot of bother though, we still ask ourselves, what would Shackleton do?

Dear friends, the answer is, gather together, have some grog and sing a song. And honestly, it does seem to work. So we'll add that to our pile of self-help book recommendations. Shackleton's Way by Margot Morel. Thank you very much for that. I mean, that's fairly extreme self-help, isn't it, actually? It is a little bit, isn't it? Yes, I think we can agree.

Our guest today is, is it time to get on to the guest, Eve? Eve's writing on a hand at the moment. The guest, I'm just slightly... Does it just say help? Yeah, a little bit of politics here. The big news this morning, probably tells us, is that Kaby Beijanoke has sacked Robert Jenrick. This is the British shadow cabinet we're talking about.

It's excited a lot of people, hasn't it? Well, it has. But her reasons, and she's been quite public about her reasons, are that he's been a scheming towrag. Yeah, she's done off. Yeah, he's been trying to gather support for his own Bobby Janus. Well, it says here the headline on the telly is, plotting in secret to defect.

I don't think he's been all that secret. I think Robert Jenrick's secret about anything, is he? I think he's been on movers for a while. Anyway, chemis had a bellyful and he's off. He's off, he's gone. This is from Sue, who says she loves going to the cinema, mostly on her own. She goes most weeks and twice this week, and she's seen Becoming Victoria Wood, which is the documentary out in cinemas now, which we're about to discuss. You see more production.

Sue, I hope you, well, you know, you do say you did enjoy it. She mainly goes to the lovely independent cinema, the Hebden Bridge Picture House. That sounds nice, doesn't it? It shows the latest blockbusters, but also, art house and niche films that the big films, the big chains would never have. Thursday mornings are an especially good time to go because there's free tea or coffee and biscuits. Is it Silver Surfer?

She doesn't say Silver Surfer. Our local picture house has got Silver Surfer showings and they're fantastic because they're a very, very popular film. You know, the hipster. Yes. Now available in many forms in Hackney. It doesn't want to be seen dead in a silver surfer thing. And we do, we get free biscuits, over 55.

Yeah, well, I get a pound off at the East West Kensington Art Cinema County. And that's after you've travelled for free on your Freedom Pass. I tell you what, why aren't you buying everybody lunch every day? I should actually. Oh, gosh, that makes me feel really guilty. I tell you what, the rumours. No, it doesn't. There were these rumours, they were going to take away this amazing.

I know. The Freedom Pass. But you had a laugh. didn't you when you saw that. No, I was so, I was so angry because there is this, this ever-moving horizon ahead of me of retirement. Free travel. No, it just, everything just keeps on going. Our pension age will be 85 by the time we get to it. Yeah, I just want it to stop. I need it to stay still where I can see it. I want to, genuinely, I would like to have a couple of years working where I could use my freedom pass. I would really like that, Jane. I've paid TFL or it's pre-distance.

You know, 40 years working in London, you have paid a lot to move around the city. You just paid a lot. And it would be really nice not to have to pay so much. I was never a student here, so I never got a student discount. And actually, I think if I totaled up what, you know, a daily commuters cost around London is a pretty insane figure. Yeah, it would be. We run into the... Well, shall we do the maths?

Let's do the maths, perhaps not in the podcast because Eve, unlike us, does have a life. And anyway, the Abacus isn't here. It's next door in the production office. Let's bring in the director of Becoming Victoria Wood. I don't think I need to tell you who Victoria Wood is, although you will hear an introduction in which I do tell you who she is. Our guest this afternoon is Catherine Abbott, the director of a documentary. Now, in cinemas across the UK, it is called Becoming Victoria Wood.

And it charts Victoria's life from a pretty lonely childhood in an isolated house on the outskirts of Berry in Lancashire to TV stardom and national treasure status. Victoria went on to win four BAFTAs and she played the Royal Albert Hall for 15 consecutive nights. First of all, Catherine, good afternoon to you. How are you? Very well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Great pleasure. Love the documentary, big fan of Victoria Wood. When did you first come across her yourself? So I think for me, the gateway drug was dinner ladies.

So I grew up, you know, with Victoria being on telly in the house, watching the delays in the Christmas specials. And that inspired me to go back and look at her earlier work and I fell in love with a scene on TV. So she was just one of those people who felt like she was always there. Yes, yeah. I actually saw an as seen on TV on, I think, BBC 4 over Christmas. And it was, it was so ahead of its time.

It was actually unnerving. Yes, and it doesn't get old either. I mean, through making this documentary, have watched it many times. And I still laugh every single time. Yeah. I have to say that celebrity deaths are, I mean, you know, sometimes you think, oh, that's sad. And other times you're not sure who the person is. And sometimes, frankly, you thought they'd already died. Let's just be honest about it. But when I found out about Victoria Woods death in 2016, and she was only 62, I just remember being genuinely saddened. And I'm sure I wasn't alone. How did you take it?

Yeah, I think everyone was really knocked back by it. It was unexpected and I think it felt personal. I think because of the role she played in so many of our lives and the type of humour, the type of comedian and actor and performer she was, people felt very much like they knew her and that was because she made us feel like she knew us. You know, she had this amazing relatability. And so I think it felt personal in a way that maybe a lot of other celebrity deaths and losses don't. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Tell us about her childhood, Catherine,

because I hadn't actually realised it was so desolate, frankly. Yeah, I think it was quite an unusual childhood. And so she grew up on top of a hill on the outskirts of Barry. And she was the youngest of four siblings. Her father worked very hard. He was an insurance underwriter. And when he wasn't outworking, he was working on writing. He would write for the radio and write play. and so he was something of a frustrated entertainer. Victoria's mother was incredibly intelligent and went back to school when Victoria was about 11 years old. And so her parents were very busy, very occupied.

And Victoria, when she talks about her own childhood, she talks about almost being in this empty house by herself, sitting on the piano, playing to an imaginary audience, and spending just a lot of time alone. And she was a very shy child. And so the film that we've made is kind of a story of how that shy girl, at the piano with no audience came to be somebody who could sell out the Royal Albert Hall. Yes. The house was really very peculiar. It was an old RAF base.

And her mum had put sort of bits of plywood between rooms and things like that. Yes, the partition itself. And so even within the house, things were very separate. And so, you know, we interviewed for the film some people who've been at school with Victoria. And I think only one of her school friends ever got as far as getting to the house and described it as being very bleak and wind-swept and empty. And so what was fascinating to me was learning more about Victoria's childhood and then seeing some of her sketches and comedy work in a new light because that feeling of neglect or loneliness features in so much of her work.

And I think the classic example is a sketch called Swim the Channel, which is about a young girl who decides to swim the channel, and then disappears and her parents don't have any, don't show any concern about where she might be. And when you watch that sketch and you, it's still incredibly funny. But understanding Victoria's childhood more, I saw it in a new light.

Yes, I actually find it unbearably sad now. She's covered in, was it, goose fat? What is it people put all over themselves for Channel Swims? Yes. Or it's whale fat, isn't it? Whale fat, I don't know. You used to be able to get any kind of, I think, mammal fat. Coconut oil these days.

Yes, virgin olive oil. Who knows. But anyway, yes. and the plucky character played by Victoria enters the channel on a very grey day and her parents aren't even there. I mean, it's just, there's no support vessel, there's nothing. Actually, you're right, it's almost unbearable

when you see it in relation to her childhood. What I didn't realise was her right from the start nailed on determination to become famous. Now, where did that come from? She always talked about it as being something she felt. She said it started when she was four years old and it came to her when she was sitting in the garden next to the privet that she just wanted to be famous.

But she also talks about a moment when she was about seven or eight when she went to see Joyce Grenfell at the Buxton Opera House and seeing a woman standing alone on stage, making people laugh, was an image that stayed with her and was something that she aspired to do. But I think what's incredible is that, you know, despite her shyness and her insecurity as a child and a young woman, this self-belief that she had, this idea that she wanted to be famous, she wanted to be a performer and be successful,

and she had this real ambition and self-belief that she would make it. And despite the setbacks that she faced, she never lost that inner belief that she had the talent and that she would one day get there. I don't want to put you on the spot here because you're young. But can you tell us about Joyce Grenfell? Because I confess even I'm too young to really know much about Joyce Grenfell, except that she did stand on a stage and made people laugh. Yeah, so she was, I suppose you'd call Joyce Gunfellate a kind of character comedian.

So she would do monologues in different characters, different accents, little sketches. And a lot of that you can see in some of the Victoria's subsequent work, like the character Kitty that we heard from a scene on TV, you know, creating these characters. And at the heart of a lot of those monologues was observation, conversation, language. And so I think, you know, you can see that legacy in Victoria's work. and the observation that she had, that she then fed into those stories so that you're looking at people that you think are real.

And I think that that's something that was, it did come as part of the legacy of her love of Joyce Grenfell. You've got some cracking archive footage in the documentary, including Victoria's appearance on new faces, where she won her heat but then didn't win the next stage. And she does genuinely look devastated. Yes, I think it's really, It goes from being a celebration to being tragic quite quickly.

So she wins her heat and she thinks this is it. This is the breakthrough that she's been waiting for. And she's interviewed by the local newspapers and this is the thing that's going to make her a star. But then she gets through to the final and she doesn't win. And I think that was a real knock. And the sort of treatment she had as well, I think, you know, in that broadcast, the compare of Newfaces gets her name wrong twice. Yeah, of course, or Joanne.

Yeah, oh, God. Wouldn't happen here. And one of the other judges, you know, kind of tells her, well, there's nowhere for you to fit. You know, you're too different. You're a bit like Joyce Grenfell, but no one wants that anymore. And so I think that was a huge blow. And coming quite hot on the heels of having got very excited to have won the heat.

Yeah, it was just too much. But she did have a bit of success because she did perform songs and write songs, original songs, but that's life, didn't she? Yeah, and I think something I learned that I hadn't realised was that for Victoria, it kind of started with songs. So, you know, it started with the piano and writing songs and working on songs that other people wrote the lyrics for. And then she started writing the lyrics herself.

And so, you know, her early life performances was all songs as well. So I think some of that early television of That's Life and some of the things she was doing for Pebble Mill, where she would be writing songs to order, to kind of illustrate things that are going on in the news and in the world. I mean, they're very, very funny. And I hadn't realised quite how much of that work she did before she started doing the sketch comedy and the stand-up.

She had a kind of stable of people that she worked with in later life, not just Julie Walters, but Celia Imrey and Duncan Preston and Maxine Peek and Patricia Routledge. I mean, these are all really fantastic performers in their own right, but they wanted to work with her, didn't they? Yeah, absolutely. And I think once she found people that she liked to work with, she would write for them as well. And what is fascinating and one of my favourite bits in the film that we've made is when she meets Julie.

And that really is the catalyst that writing for Julie is the thing that really changes things for Victoria. She writes what she calls her first good joke and her first good sketch. And that's inspired by meeting and working with Julie. And so those performers, she kept going back to them and they kept coming back to work. work with her and the writing is such high quality. I mean, I think you'd jump at the chance, however successfully became in other walks of life, to come back to work with Victoria again. Yeah, but she didn't like it very much when people wanted just to tweak the odd line. No.

Very protective. Very protective, yes. A lot of the people we spoke to, people like Maxine and Jeff Posner, who directed, as seen on TV and Dinner Ladies, talked about how Victoria's writing was like music. It had a rhythm and it had a beat. and you couldn't change it because it wouldn't work. And she knew exactly where the emphasis should be, how many syllables a word should have. So to change something or slightly riff on it, it would stop being funny.

And she knew that. She knew exactly how it had to be and she wanted it to be done exactly right, which I think was probably quite challenging for a lot of people, a lot of actors working with her, especially on something like dinner ladies, where they would record twice. So they'd record on a Friday and then again on a Saturday and Victoria would rewrite in between.

So they'd have to learn things again. but it was that dedication that she had to getting everything as good as it could be. It's the language, isn't it? You're absolutely right. I don't, I mean, just on paper, Cheedle is not funny, but it is if you've got Patricia Ratledge saying it. Exactly. It's just, it's a rather, I'm going to say, slightly smug town in Cheshire. That's right. Isn't that's where Cheedle is? But you automatically know who Kitty is.

Yes. Yeah, no, 100%. I mean, I just think it's worth saying that back in. the mid-80s to have a young woman on television making gags about tampons and being overweight and daft keep fit crazes and everything. It was really revolutionary and so what would I have been to 21? I mean, I couldn't have loved her more. Do you think, is it a generational thing? Was it my generation who really loved her and seized upon her or did everybody like Victoria would? I think to be part of the generation that is seeing her for the first time,

I think one of the things we try to get across in the film is what it might have felt like to hear somebody going to these places, telling these jokes about these things in these areas of life, especially women's lives that didn't get talked about. I think the freshness of that probably can't be recaptured, but I think it's still so relevant to younger generations. And I was working with people on the documentary who are in their 20s, and they weren't familiar with some of the earlier work.

but they were laughing at it, they got it. And there's a world out there on TikTok and social media of people sharing clips from Victoria's work. And I think so much of it is still relevant and partly because some of the issues she talked about to do with appearance and weight and that how women are judged is still, you know, such a current topic. But also it's, I mean, the story that we tell in the film

is of, you know, somebody who felt like they were an outsider and didn't feel like they fit in. And it's a journey of her kind of becoming, comfortable with herself and going, you know what, I'm going to do me whatever happens. And I think that's relatable to everybody regardless of generation. I'm going to go to that criticism that she faced. There was one review that described her as having a talent as ample as her frame. I mean, just extraordinary.

If you weren't around at the time, welcome to the 80s and 90s. I mean, I'm not sure. Do you think things are better? I hope they are. I think in some ways I mean I think the thing that strikes you about those sorts of headlines is the casualness of that language and the way that even something that's on the face of it

going to be a compliment they're saying she's talented but it has to come with an adjective that describes how she looks in a negative way and I think that kind of casual commentary I don't think you'd see that so much in the newspaper articles now but I think women are still judged for the way they look and that is used to try and control and undermine and keep people in their place of it

So, yeah, it's something we thought about a lot, making the film how much has and hasn't changed. And I think even by the point in the film, when we talk a bit about dinner ladies, Maxine talks about being at drama school, you know, several years, many years later after Victoria's first started, you know, having that experience of people talking about her appearance and Maxine's getting the same thing.

And so there has been changed, but maybe, you know, not enough. So I think that's probably still the case for people trying to become performers in public figures today. Now, there are some great contributors in the documentary. Joan Armour Trading. I didn't realise Joan Armour Trading was a good friend of Victoria Wood, Michael Ball, French and Saunders, who seemed really, really fond of her and acknowledge how inspirational she was to them.

But no member of her family, I mean, the parents are missing. I'm sure they died some time ago, but it wouldn't it be interesting to hear from her mother and father, actually. But also absent are her siblings and her children. Are they all right with it? Yes, yes. So the documentary is a co-production with Phil McIntyre television who run Victoria's estate

and who managed Victoria during her lifetime. And so through them, the family have been kind of informed all the way along the way and have been very supportive, but they're very private. So, you know, they were pleased that the documentary was being made, but it wasn't something that they wanted to appear in. Right. And Victoria Wood brought so much happiness, I think, to so many people.

Was she herself? It's a bit of a hackney question, but a lot of comedians are not happy. Was she happy or content at least? I think interviews with Victoria, she often talks about being very happy in her work and she found great fulfilment in her work. And I think when we talk about Barry and Frida in the film, we've got an interview. Actually, Victoria speaking into her dictaphone and just sort of talking about things

and she talks about how that was a happy time and a happy song to do. and I think she was very happy and proud of what she achieved with her work. I can't really speak to how she might have felt personally. But I think, you know, that dream she had when she was younger of being that woman standing alone on stage and commanding an audience, she achieved that. And I think that would have brought her a lot of joy and satisfaction. Well, I was one of the people that saw her at the Albert Hall and that astonishing 15-night run. Has anybody done that since?

So I think Victoria's 15 nights were not consecutive And I think since then there has been a long run of I think Russell Howard might have done 10 consecutive nights at the Royal Albert Hall But to do 15 and sell out the entire run has not been beaten And she did it twice and then she had another big run I can't remember how many dates that would have been after that as well So yeah I think she that there was anyone else You can actually come close to what she achieved at that venue

Right. When you hear the ballad of Barry and Frieder, and I know we could have played two soups as well, we didn't have time for everything. And then there's the majesty of acorn antiques as well, which I absolutely loved. But Barry and Frieder just bring, I mean, it's exquisitely well performed, brilliantly written. But there's a kind of, you can hear the female laughter just rocking the room. Because it's about a woman who quite frankly fancies a bit of what back in the old days he called, How's Your Father? And Barry's not up for it. He's not up to it, possibly. We don't know. It's that counterintuitive thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I think, again, that, you know, people, no one had really done that before.

Comedy had been very much from a male point of view. You know, it'd come up through in 70s and 80s. It was the working men's clubs. It was, you know, even the comedy that was on television was male dominated. And it was people who had sort of come through that route, really. And we were beginning to hear what Jasper Carroll calls a raconteurring style of comedy, which was more storytelling, observational. but Victoria was the first and only really woman doing that when she started.

And so to have things twisted and have it from a woman's point of view, I think would have felt so different and revolutionary at the time. And Victoria was always very clear that she wanted to be a comedian for everyone. She didn't just want to be a comedian for women. But I think the female response to hearing a song like that, both then and still now, I mean, I've watched it in a couple of cinemas and to hear the laughter still ringing out when that song comes on And the joy in the room is fantastic. It is.

I mean, it's that woman's weekly line that just absolutely gets you. Just very briefly, I don't want to forget Housewife 49, which I also really love, which is a serious drama about the wartime diaries. Just remind us of this. Yeah, so this is the wartime diaries of Nella Last, a 49-year-old woman. Victoria had read her diaries and was inspired to write a drama about it. And this is a woman who kind of feels a bit on the edge of life. and feels like she doesn't belong,

but she finds a purpose during the war, doing war work. And I think Victoria saw a lot of her mother in that role. It was the kind of character that Victoria also often played herself, somebody who is slightly on the edge of things and maybe is slightly overlooked by other people. And it's a wonderful piece of work, which she won Bafters for, but it showcases her ability to write serious drama, play serious drama as well as comedy.

And I think what's one of the things that's special about her, it's that she was a phenomenal talent in so many areas. It wasn't just the stand-up or the sketch comedy. There's the music. She wrote musicals. She wrote serious drama. She performed serious drama. It's incredible.

It really is. And she is still much, much missed. Catherine, thank you so much. Catherine Abbott is the director of the film. You can see in cinemas right now, becoming Victoria Wood. I hope you can search that documentary out. I don't think I know anyone who wasn't a fan of Victoria.

would but becoming Victoria Wood is well worth a watch it's got lots of celebrity contributors but also some of the best sketches as well and the songs and oh it's just um yeah it's just a lovely journey through her colossal talent quite frankly she went too soon didn't she really did and um do you know what it's one of those

I think she had a I think there were elements in her life that were really quite sad um and she sort of over I don't know she just overachieved I don't mean that in a bad way I mean that she had to overcome a lot of genuine sadness, quite lonely childhood and adolescence and picked apart for her looks.

It's all just so miserable when you think about it. But she just made so many people so happy. I do remember reading because she was married to a magician, wasn't the great Supremia, I think, was... Suprendo. Suprendo, that's right. Jeffrey Durham's his stage name. And he always seemed like a very nice joke.

And I do remember reading an article with her. And this was an article that just simply, women didn't talk very openly about marriages because in terms of how it would be written up, it would always be a failed marriage. You know, that was very much the way that you described a woman who had exited a marriage. But he always seemed to be very nice about her.

I think, you know, we'd now call it an amicable parting. You know, I hope that was the case. And she said, I simply fell in love with my children. It was nothing about him. I simply fell in love with my children. And actually, the more you know about her childhood, the more you see that she was almost entitled to do that. You can understand how falling in love with her own kids

made up for a few things that might have been lacking in her childhood. And I just remember reading it and thinking how blissfully honest, I'd never heard a woman say that before. And because it wasn't a dismissive thing about her husband. It was just an explanation of a situation. And you see that happening all of the time. You know, Dad's falling in love with their children and the wife gets a little bit pushed aside

and it's called Eros displaced, isn't it? Is it? Yeah. So I was very grateful to her just for that tiny little insight into the adult world. I was young at the time, Jane. Yes.

I am much younger than you. On a nut bombshell, we end another companionable week on offer. Join us on Monday. Do we have any guests lined up for next week, Eve? Yes. Yeah. Well, would you care to tell us?

I'll tell you what, dry January is, fucking wonders. Tuesday we've got Claudia Hammond. Oh, lovely, yes. Fantastic. Wednesday, I've got David Badeal, and then Thursday it's Carol Vorderman. Oh, my God, what a week. It's a stellar week. Thank you very much.

You see, nothing to be embarrassed about. Claudia Hammond, David Badell and Carol Vorderman. I mean, that's somebody's dinner party from heaven, isn't it? It certainly is. Do make sure you don't miss any of it. Goodbye. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio.

The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Thank you.