Off Air... with Jane and Fi - The worst men in the world favour a golf caddy (with Candace Bushnell)

Episode Date: January 30, 2024

In this episode, Jane and Fi decide they should be off doing their PhDs, considering their excellent grasp of detail. But before we get there, we go through the latest on films, birth memories, and parenting qualms. They're also joined by the “real-life Carrie Bradshaw”, Candace Bushnell: journalist, author, and creator of Sex and the City. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Megan McElroyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Come on, let's just be honest about it.

There are far more kind of weighty things that neither of us have seen that it would be more embarrassing to reveal we hadn't watched. But you've not watched a single episode of? Sex and the City. city now why not i think did it come out in the early 2000s yes yeah i think i was already um i think i was i'm i must have just been doing domestic tasks My mind was neither on cities nor sex, to be perfectly honest. So the notion of four beautiful women indulging in their visceral senses in Manhattan just somehow didn't ring true to your life as you wiped another very strange liquid off a surface. Is that the reason I didn't watch it, though? I don't. Was it on Channel 4?

So I remember watching it in box set form. I guzzled the whole thing. And that would have been definitely early 2000s. And there was something... For me, it was far enough removed

from my own reality to be entertaining. Not that removed. But with enough in it for me to be able to really enjoy it yeah and i think because uh you know everybody was either single or i mean that was the point of the show of the show yeah or you know destined to try and be in a couple or do you know what it did jane i think it was one of the first shows that I ever watched where being single wasn't always portrayed

as a status you had on the way to being part of a double. OK. So there were elements of joy involved, certainly in Samantha's existence. And that was Kim Cattrall. Yes. Yes, yeah. And I have interviewed Kim Cattrall.

I interviewed her once about insomnia. She had terrible insomnia for a while. I think she's a bit better now. I hope so. Gosh, so do I. And then she was involved in a campaign to save Sefton Park in Liverpool because she was born in Liverpool, wasn't she?

Yeah, you've lost me now. I also thought the wardrobes in Sex and the City were just superb. So Sarah Jessica Parker's character, it was just so out there, everything that she wore. Right. You were kind of tuning in, you know, to see her garments. Well, you can see her now in the West End if you've got 300 quid.

Well, you better explain that reference because she is in, is it a Neil Simon play in London at the moment? With her husband, actual real life husband. Matthew Broderick. and apparently it's, well, if you're two megastars and you do a show together, you're going to get both adoration and people are waiting to pounce as well, aren't they? So apparently the most expensive tickets are 300 quid and some of the reviews have been a bit lukewarm. What's it called, the something sweet?

Plaza Suite? The Plaza Suite, yeah. But the 300 quid one, because obviously we've read the same article, I mean, it does, it includes beverages. Oh! Plaza Suite. Yeah, yeah. But the 300 quid one, because obviously we've read the same article, I mean, it does, it includes beverages. Oh! You've got your own private little kind of foyer area and they bring the ice cream to you. Oh, you've said it.

I mean, in a West End theatre, by the time you've added all of those things in, if you just pay 50 quid for your ticket, you're quite close to, well, you're definitely over three figures, aren't you? What about toilet? Well, you've got your own toilet facilities. Not individual, but you don't have to queue up with the whole of the upper circle yeah you might have a little designer potty

well you're always you're always very rude about my solution to this problem so you know what was your solution well it's the truck isn't it that goes around at interval time the massive fees fees we truck fees come on ladies anyway the theatre. Fees wee truck. Fees wees. Come on, ladies. Anyway, the reason we were talking about this in the first place, when the whole business of doing a podcast rudely interrupted our binter banter, was that our guest today is Candice Bushnell. Well done for reeling it back in. I got there.

That's good. Candice, or as one of our colleagues wrote in a script, Candance Bushnell. She must have had all kinds of pronunciations. Yeah, she must have done. They wouldn't have called me Candance, I tell you. Anyway, she is interesting, not least because she has something to say about E. Jean Carroll, a name that has been...

Obviously, a lot of people in Britain will know the name. They won't be sure of who she is or what she did to come into the orbit of Donald Trump. But anyway, that's later in the interview, isn't it? It is. That's just what we call in the trade, a little tease. Yes. Quite a lot of little teases in our trade, aren't there?

We'll name them. Okay. So look, quite a few people have seen All of Us Strangers, so this is the movie that's just set you off on one. Yes. Jill is in Southend-on-Sea. My wife and I saw All of Us Strangers at the weekend. The trailer looked fun and the 80s soundtrack was right up our street.

I just didn't expect the three-tissue sobfest that followed. Three? But having grown up gay in the 80s and losing my dad to a heart attack when I was 14, it really hit home. I love the juxtaposition of the coming out experience of the two characters from slightly different generations. Until people stop

assuming heterosexuality, we have to keep coming out over and over throughout our lives. And even now in my 50s, there's an element of stealing oneself against the internalised shame and fear something that i hope today's queer youth don't feel quite so much of do you want i think there's such a good point to make and uh you know us as heterosexuals do not understand that the fact that you have to tell

people over and over again in your lifetime yeah something about yourself that we've never ever once actually had to say you don't normally say I'm a I have said for many years I'm a retired heterosexual I think that's probably still true but we're heteronormative we don't have to say that but you shouldn't ever have to feel that way should you

and I think there's probably a completely different reaction if you have had that experience as Jill has the bit of the film that struck me and I think would affect a a completely different reaction if you have had that experience, as Jill has. The bit of the film that struck me and I think would affect a lot of people around my age... Don't give too much away. ...is just the whole parenting. It's just about parenting and about the mistakes you make

and you know you've made and your desire to do it better. But, I mean, other people will see, they'll get whatever they want out of this film. I keep saying how brilliant it is and I'm not going to stop saying that Keith said I'm a gay man, I'm so pleased that you are recommending All of Us Strangers

it has so much to offer as a film a wonderful exploration of love and grief it took me back to coming out to my parents a Saturday I will never forget but always an important step in each queer life I feel so fortunate that I was able to tell them before my mum died and that she lived to see me enjoying life with my civil partner.

After feeling initially like the mum that Claire Foy plays, she did think that a gay life might be difficult and lonely, but she saw that we could enjoy life and it would be lovely for her to know that we're still together over 20 years later i think it's a beautiful movie says keith with four actors at their best and most tender and that is true they're all i mean andrew scott and paul meskel get a lot of attention but claire foy and jamie bell's a brilliant actor he is such a brilliant actor and he is the man who played

billy elliott and he's now this but he's-up he's just a proper grown-up it's just a great fit anyway I can't go on too much more about it Alan is another listener who's seen it I want to share my reaction he said um I'd expected going in to empathize with the main character as a single gay man about to hit 40 and I was indeed really emotionally engaged with the story but at the end I was surprised to leave the cinema feeling a bit angry. I've been reflecting over the last couple of days as to who or what that anger was aimed at. Maybe the film for the way it ended. No spoilers, he says. The marketing for selling me a different viewing experience than the one I actually had. Or the world in general for experiences of bullying

I had in my own childhood. Nonetheless, I am really glad I watched it and had such a visceral reaction to it. Thank you, Alan. And I'm sorry that in some ways it disappointed or, as you say, angered you. I just think a reaction of any kind is a success, isn't it? If you make something that makes people ponder afterwards rather than just go home and never think about it

again then that's got to be success very much so how did you feel when you uh came back from seeing jungle cruise my life was changed every time i hear the name duane johnson i am transported it was the same cinema you know which i saw all of us strangers. Your right feet to point to the difference in those cultural excursions. Sorry. It was very low-hanging fruit. Yes, that was horrible. That wasn't horrible.

You laughed. Through the tears. Don't be silly. Pimps and Prostitutes. I mean, if you go into title your email like that, it's probably got quite a good chance of getting read out. It's from Bridget.

And she just wants to go back to the chat about talking to reluctant children about the facts of life. Do you know what? People were really helpful about this subject, weren't they? We had some top tips. And Bridget says she's always prided herself on having very open conversations with my boys about anything they ask

having once been told that eight's too late and if you don't start the easy flow of conversation young they often find it difficult to ask awkward questions when it really matters when I first read that I thought do you mean 8pm at night? that's when I read it I thought 8 o'clock

well I want to put them to bed at 7 it's never going to go in at 8.30 this tactic says Bridget has gone very well so far but I found myself hurtling out of control I thought, eight o'clock, well, I'd rather put them to bed at seven. It's never going to go in at 8.30. This tactic, says Bridget, has gone very well so far, but I found myself hurtling out of control down the metaphorical mountain the other day when my nine-year-old innocently asked me what I thought of rap music, particularly Snoop Dogg. I told him I loved rap, but whilst liking Snoop's music,

I didn't think much of him as a person, as during his murky past, he had once been a pimp. No sooner had the words left my mouth than i realized i was staring to into the abyss of then having to explain not only what a pimp was but also having to tackle the domino effect question of prostitution it was a roller coaster of unprepared pretend calm which i felt went rather well considering until the next day when my husband took the boys out for a surf and was informed by the said nine-year-old that he knew things and then proceeded to download this barrage of exciting information luckily he had forgotten the word for prostitute so i dodged a bullet there but as a giggling friend who had

been through something similar talking about clitorises with her daughters told me sometimes less is more perhaps my parents had it right all along when they plonked us down in front of David Attenborough and didn't correct us when we called sex mating until we were at least ten. And that comes from a very happy all-boys household. We even went male on the cockerel and the dog. Far better for me to be the only schemer. I love that admission.

A cockerel, why do they have a cockerel? I don't know. Bridget doesn't say. No, I think we need to know. We need to know. Well, I mean, it's quite strange to just have a cockerel? I don't know. Bridget doesn't say. No, I think we need to know. We need to know. Well, I mean, it's quite strange to just have a cockerel with no hens, isn't it? Yeah, what's the benefit? Can't you afford an alarm clock?

Early wake-up call. Yeah, okay. Well, that's just a bit odd, isn't it? This is a very serious one. These stories about birth memories are quite intriguing, aren't they? So the thing about getting something stuck around your neck in the birth canal, so the umbilical cord, so many people have then got this terrible triggering thing in adult life.

Well, it's obviously real to them, isn't it? Jane and Fee, listening today to the email from the woman who was born with the cord around her neck, I was taken back 50 years. While giving birth to my daughter, there were sudden, urgent cries of, don't push, just pant, don't push. The cord is around the neck. Well, Emma was eventually born safely and has grown into a beautiful daughter.

However, she cannot bear anything around her neck. No rollbacks, no tight scarves or necklaces. That's from Liz. And there's another one from Christina. Like your listener, too janet that was the listener in question here like your listener janet i too was born with the cord wrapped around my neck and i cannot stand turtlenecks also when i suffer from anxiety it always feels like my neck is being squeezed the plot thickens says christina so i wonder whether

there are other connections as well so maybe if you were a you know a forceps birth or a von two's birth whether you have a similar kind of thing about you know stuff around your head well I was a forceps birth and do you have things you know if somebody touches your head

or you know you're in a I don't know how often you're in a tight headlock it's not that kind of radio show. I haven't got anything to bring to this party. Lord knows I like to talk about myself, but no, as far as I'm aware, that hasn't ever been an issue. I wear the occasional beanie in inclement weather and I don't seem to suffer from it.

Well, look, let's broaden it out and see whether there's anything aside from the weirdness around necks that we can find. Because then we're on to something. We could both go and do a PhD at a prestigious university, Jane. I mean, are we wasted here? Should we actually be at Imperial College? Probably, yes. I do think so. With our grasp of detail.

Certainly with my scientific abilities. Oh, that reminds me. Some interesting emails from you on the subject of tech. We'll get to those in a moment. But just being practical, from Tanya in Amsterdam, a tip about car seats. Car seat tip, she says, there's a little known company called Multimac, which creates car seats that can be fitted into any car and seats three or four children from birth to 12 years. Not sure this is the right platform,

but thought you could pass on to June, who was asking about this. Save me from having to get an SUV for my three kids. Might be helpful for other parents in the same situation. Not cheap, but if you weigh it up against buying a new car and three car seats multiple times, it's got to be worth it. Tanya's in Amsterdam, so the name of the company is multi mac there we are you never know we have had some updates as well haven't we on little fut fut cars yes so the ones in france that you're allowed to drive somebody did uh point out that part of the reason

is because you know some communities are so rural in France, many communities are so rural, that you do need, you know, you need something that you can drive irrespective of age or ability, I suppose. So that might explain it. But so many people have said, you know, the idea that these are then vehicles that are driven by youths or people who've lost their licence through drink driving and stuff. I mean, they're just exactly the kind of people

that shouldn't be on the roads at all. And certainly not in a potentially rather puny-sounding vehicle. I mean, it doesn't sound as though the vehicle would offer the person in charge of it much protection in the event of an incident. No, quite fragile. Yeah. Here's a listener called Sharon who says, I'm listening while cooking cocco riesling.

Wouldn't that be very sweet? She says it's chicken stew. Yeah, we're not that thick, Sharon. Might be our previous listener's cockerel in the stew there. You never know, do you? Cocco, is it riesling or riesling? I don't, I think you could probably do either, but isn't that quite a sweet wine? Uh, just don't know. Okay. No, it's German, isn't it?

And my ears pricked up. Did you notice the way I just said that? Just in case people didn't know. Just to show my, just my, I may not be a wine drinker, but I'm somebody who knows wine. And my ears pricked up at the mention of voiture sans permis we spend a lot of that's french thank you um messy we spend a lot of time in france and we call them put puts because of the noise they make they travel at about 10 miles an hour and hold up all the traffic um yes uh used primarily by people for banned from driving or drinking in fairness this is what you've just said, isn't it? It is.

Is it because you read this email? Yes. That you had that information? Ecoutez, repete. I actually think, says Sharon, it's an essential option because there's generally zero public transport in rural areas and Tesco home deliveries just don't reach that far. Other supermarchés are available thank

you sharon yeah and yeah thank you for doing that uh somebody had suggested that we had we actually do have a similar rule in this country and we probably do don't we because you could probably uh you could drive your your lawnmower or your golf caddy around couldn't you without a license but probably not on a dual carriageway imagine if you were i mean it's not a joke at all but if you were banned from driving and you just took your golf buggy up the m5 i think that's i think that's the point you probably can use it on smaller roads but just not on motorways right i think golf caddies always make me laugh because you just always see the worst men in the world favor a golf caddy, don't they?

Donald Trump's always bouncing out of Mar-a-Lago in a massive golf caddy. Whenever I see them, I just think, you're just probably, if you're not a criminal, you're probably just not very nice. Well, you think Donald Trump might be not very nice? Gosh, you've absolutely amazed me today. Have you seen the stuff about his hair dye? No, what's that? The reason his hair is that really weird colour is that it's supposed to be another colour,

but he can never sit still long enough for the dye to take effect. So he just kind of gets up and wanders off. And so he's left with that, what would you call it? I don't know. Well, I mean, it's a little bit uh it's a bit cat's piss isn't it but also i'd really like to see his hair when it's unfolded laid out in the evening or is it at night well they're not gonna know hopefully neither of us are ever gonna find out uh more on him later uh amy says um paper bag twizzling or swizzling

she calls it which i i think it is swizzling, to be fair. Twizzling, she then says in the email, paper bags of fruit or veg, or in my case, pastries. I worked in a bakery. It's all about confidence. If you overthink it or chicken out, then the manoeuvre can be quite tricky. But if you just go for it with a confident flick of the wrist,

there's nothing more satisfying. Even now, says Amy, if I buy something in an open paper bag, I'll always swizzle it on the way home. Wow. You see, if you've got it, you never lose it. But I guess you've got to keep up the practice. What a sight that must be. Shall we go into our big interview? Or do you need to do something else first? Oh, just to say that lots of emails about Dame Stephanie Shirley, who was the entrepreneur philanthropist and once, as a young girl, had come to England on the Kindertransport in 1939. She's now 90.

And she was on the podcast on Thursday, actually, and lots of people just saying that she was an inspirational figure, but also talking, as we were yesterday, about how hard it can be for young women to get into tech and engineering sorts of careers and anonymous says my daughter's in her final year studying for an engineering degree at uni in her class of over 100 there are 15 girls and i do think it's fair to say she has encountered issues with some of her male

contemporaries she did describe group project in the first year where she the only female in her group did the lion's share of the workload and then discovered some of the males confidently talking over her in the final presentation, although they hadn't done much prior to that. In her second year, a different group, again, she was the only female. This time she was ignored, but when any of the males chipped in, the group started to communicate with each other and not to her. She is growing in confidence,

but how do you tackle behaviour like this without sounding petty? It's difficult, isn't it? And it goes back to what we were saying yesterday about the more young women and girls there are in those environments, the easier it will be for the girls who are there. But it still sounds pretty difficult at the moment.

I should also say, one of my youngest daughter is sharing a house. She's got a great friend at uni who's doing engineering. They do work hard. The mechanical engineering and engineering students and i don't mean to be dismissive of people like my child doing a humanities degree but they do work really really hard and they are going to save us aren't they well i i do i really do think that they will yeah yeah and they deserve huge kudos i do think it is harder for them at the moment, the girls,

to do those degrees and a huge respect for those who do. Yeah, I would be interested in seeing some statistics, and I will search these out myself, about the balance of genders in apprenticeships. Because it's when you go into the workforce as well, isn't it, that you really need a bit of backup. You just need a bit of backup anyway. But if you're coming from a discipline

where you felt that you're in the minority, I think entering the workplace, you must need quite, I don't know, maybe just a feeling of strength that you might not have been able to gain. Because that's one of the damaging things, isn't it? When there's an imbalance in any room, it just makes you feel weaker than you actually are.

Yeah. Because you're not weak, but if you don't see someone who's prepared to back you up, it's the backing you up, isn't it? Yeah, it's support. It's always support. Verbal and otherwise. And you need that backup in the room in the moment,

not afterwards. There's no good somebody coming up to you and saying, I wish I would have said, I would have agreed with agreed with you but and isn't it a shame jane because actually i bet that half of those young men you know who are talking to each other instead of talking to a young woman in the room are doing that because they they have an uncertainty about them as well yeah so because they're all young it's not to assume misogyny. I think quite often it's vulnerability that leads to that gap being wide. And, you know, we've all just got to find a better way of saying we're all the same. You know, let's share a bit more of the bits we understand about each other.

So those are all enormous conversations that you're very welcome to join in on. We're Jane and Fi at Times.Radio. And we probably have had all of the pictures of the cats peeing that we can take but there is a suggestion that we might do a little instagram library so that's going to come your way uh sometime over the next couple of days i think henry actually the executive producer is going to put that together well there was a time fee when you and i were loosely connected to journalism. Those days are behind us.

But now we're just doing montages of feline piss. Yeah, that's right. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts.

Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. But now let's move on to today's interview uh which is with candace bushnell yeah uh so she was primarily here to tell us about her new project which is a stage show rave reviews and all of that uh called true tales of sex success and sex and the city uh just in case you only really know her with her affiliation, Sex and the City, she is a journalist. And it was a column that she was writing in the New York Observer

that first provided the kind of creative spark for what then went on to become Sex and the City. And that column was about her experiences as a young woman, a single young woman, coming to the city with not very much money and trying to make it and at the time i think we need to put this into context don't we that would have been the early 1990s and writing about your single life and including references to sex life as a singleton is just so much rarer than it is now i mean let, let's face it, now it seems to be, well, quite common. And you can interpret that in both ways. You can, yes.

Just for the way that Jane said it. Got my permission. Yeah. But as Jane mentioned earlier, because Candice has been around quite a long time in the world of journalism, she does know a lot of people, including E. Jean Carroll, and she's got some thoughts about her colleague being caught up in one of the most extraordinary defamation cases. Yes, and we should say probably that we spoke to

Candace before Donald Trump was ordered to pay this extraordinary amount of damages, which was £65 million in our money for defaming the journalist E. Jean Carroll. And then in a previous civil case, Donald Trump was found to have defamed her and sexually assaulted her in the 1990s. So that just gives you all the context you need. So we started off by asking her to tell us a little bit about her new stage show. It's called True Tales of Sex, Success and Sex in the City. And that's exactly what it is. It's the origin story of Sex and the City, how I created Sex and the City, how hard I worked to get there, why I invented Carrie Bradshaw, and what happened to me afterward. And along the way, during the show, I answer some of the questions that I've been asked over the years, like, was there a real Mr. Big?

So we talk about the real Mr. Big and talk a bit about, you know, did I have three friends like the ones on the TV show? A Charlotte, a Miranda and a Samantha. And of course, I had lots and lots of girlfriends. And we also play a game real or not real, because there's so many things that happened in the TV show that happened in my real life, but they're either better or worse. That is a game I want to play, Candice. What kind of things? Can you give us just a couple of examples of real or not real? not real? Well, you know, I didn't actually do this on purpose, but I realized that a few of the real or not real questions have to do with guys who Carrie dated on the TV show and whether or not I dated those guys in my real life. And I have to say, it's pretty funny. And it's also, you know, as one women shows are, it's also a bit of my life story. You know, the classic story of somebody coming to New York to make it and with a

couple of saucy little sex stories thrown in for good measure. So it's a great girl's night out. I'm sure it is fantastic. We will talk about Mr. Big in a moment, but we are not going to talk about a man before we talk more about you as a woman, Candice. And I was wondering what originally gave you the confidence to write? You find yourself new to a city with not very much money in your pocket, but somewhere inside you, you have the confidence to tell your story. Well, that is one of the stories that I tell in True Tales. How I came to the city, how I knew that I wanted to be a writer, and that happened at a very young age.

How I moved to New York at basically 18, how I moved to New York at basically 18 and what that experience was like and how determined I was. So it was something that it had been in me since I was a kid. I just knew I was going to be a writer someday and I was going to live in New York. And when I had the opportunity, I just jumped. I did it, which is what you do when you're 18, because you don't know any better. You know, the fact that you have $20, that doesn't actually deter you. And also at the time when I moved to New York, $20 seemed like a lot of money. So there you go. like a lot of money. So there you go. Did you find that you met resistance at all in wanting to tell the stories of women who didn't want children? I think there's an acceptance now of that and it's borne out by the statistics, isn't it? But back then, actually, I think the social

pressure was still very much on women to be the walking womb. You know, it was, but it wasn't in New York City. In the New York City that I was in, it was, there were so many successful, ambitious women who were coming to New York like I did to make it. And, you know, it's that the truth about New York City, if you feel like you don't fit into your small town, you move to New York where you find other people who are like you. And you're not going to find those people in your small town, but you find them in New York City. And the fact that I had so many just really self-actualized women friends in the 90s who were, you know, a bit like, they were really like the characters on Sex and the City. They had careers, they were ambitious, they were go-getters, and they were not married, and they didn't have kids. So for me, it didn't seem at all strange.

And it was a time when people were I mean, I have to say, when Sex and the City first came out, people were shocked because there really weren't supposed to be any single women in their 30s. That was considered like, whoa, it's sort of a taboo. And now, of course, it's, you know, it's a pretty normal state of affairs, right? To be single in your 30s, you're working in your career, you're discovering yourself, and you're becoming self-actualized. So, you know, all of those great things. So for me, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't strange. I think maybe out there in the world, it's maybe a different story. If you were to reimagine Mr. Big for 2024, how different would he be? Would he be smaller? Would he be Mr. Medium?

Maybe he would be Mr. Medium. You know, with the big man on campus, I mean, I called him Mr. Big because he was the big man on campus. So who would be the big man on campus now? It would probably be a tech guy. Like, you know, that WeWork guy, Adam, I can't remember his last name. But it would probably be a tech guy who started some kind of app or, I mean, maybe it would be a younger Elon Musk so oh can you imagine that well I don't want to please tell us you don't find Mr. Musk an attractive proposition no okay good but I quite like his mother his mother May is great I love her's very, she's always really nice to me when I see her. So, so that makes me feel good. Yeah. She's great. Super cool.

I'm sure she is great and she's super cool and she's super beautiful, but I really wish that she had taken him aside, actually. Elon, that is. Maybe just had a few words. Look, this is a different interview for a different time. It definitely is. Jane is going to ask some very specific questions about modern politics now. Well, Candice, you are someone who's... Probably not the best at modern politics. Well, okay, well, try this one. You've been in and around New York, as you say, for a long time, and you have moved in the same circles as Donald Trump. When you first met him back in the day, what was he doing and what was he like?

Well, I mean, the first, I think probably the first time I saw Donald Trump was at Studio 54. The nightclub. Yes. The nightclub studio 54. And, and then probably another time when I saw him was he restored Woolman rink, which was a wreck for ever. And he managed to restore it. And I was walking through central park and, and I guess they were having some sort of ribbon cutting. And, you know, he was there, you know, waving. And, you know, I actually haven't had very many encounters with him.

I mean, I used to see him in the 90s when I was writing Sex and the City. He used to go out quite a bit with I think Marlon Maples was his wife or girlfriend at the time. I think Marlon Maples was his wife or girlfriend at the time. But that's really it. So I've never really had any encounters with him. But if someone had told you, Candice, back in the 90s, that what has happened was going to happen, what would you have said? No way.

No. No. What makes you be so certain that you would have found it so difficult to imagine? Was it something about Trump himself? Well, you know, Trump wasn't considered a terribly serious figure in the 80s and 90s. And, you know, Spy Magazine used to used to like take the piss out of him you know every month he was like one of the people that Spy Magazine sort of targeted as being you know a bit of a joke so yeah you know I think at the time in the 90s but I think he'd gone bankrupt and there were all kinds of things going on. But he got that TV show. So that TV show was what really brought him out of New York and into people's living rooms.

out, I think, to have a great TV EQ, I think they call it, where people want to see him on TV. Yes. And, you know, we live in a time that is all about attention. We value attention. We reward people for attention. So things that were not so important before are hugely important now. And Donald Trump is a result of living in an attention-driven society. He's on TV a lot. He gets a lot of attention and he knows how to get attention. So there you go. Well, I know the realities. I know, Candice, that you have come across E. Jean Carroll, the woman who has accused Donald Trump of rape and a civil court found her account to be a true and accurate one. E. Jean Carroll is really known to those of us in the UK as a victim of an assault

and we don't know anything else about her. What should people know about this woman? Well, E. Jean is, she's a real girl's girl. She's a real supporter of women, of other women. She's somebody who I knew a bit in the 90s. And I really looked up to her. She's very accomplished, hardworking. I mean, she was really a career woman in New York. And what happened to her is the kind of thing that happened a lot in the 90s. And I, you know, I mean, I hesitate to say any of this because it's going to end up being like some kind of headline and I'm probably going to regret it. But, you know, the 90s was the time of basically it was the casual

rape where, you know, you might be out somewhere, somebody assaults you and there's very little you can you can do about it i mean there are a lot of stories from that period of time now donald trump doesn't drink and he doesn't do drugs but a lot of people did in the 90s and you know you drink lot, you do a lot of cocaine. People behave pretty badly. So, I mean, that's one of the classic realities of being a woman in a world of high-powered men. And E. Jean Carroll, she can't win. I mean, she did win in the civil court, but in the court of public opinion, there are still people saying, well, why didn't she report it earlier? He says he doesn't know her. What are we to make of it? What are we to make of it? This is why we need more women in positions of power. The world needs to see women who are

successful, who make their own money, who are in real positions of power. And that's really what we need to see. I mean, it's we, we just tend to dismiss women because it's easy. And, you know, she's not really in a position of power, is she? So there you go. And why do you think it is that so many women are still prepared to vote for Donald Trump, so many women are still prepared to vote for Donald Trump, knowing what we do know about him, because E. Jean Carroll's case is by no means the only case of a woman hurt by him. No, but you know what? There was all this stuff about President Clinton too. Don't forget that. Every single president has those kinds of black marks. I mean, not every single president, but quite a few. And that's what men do who are in positions of power. And also men who are not in positions

of power, if they can get away with it. I mean, that's male behavior. OK. And, you know, people are going to vote for Donald Trump because of the economy. You know, I mean, Biden keeps saying that the economy is good. It's great. But people don't feel it. They see inflation. And when Donald Trump was president, he put money in people's pockets during the pandemic. And people remember that. Would you vote for him? No. Candice Bushnell and the show premieres at the London Palladium on the 7th of February. It'll then be touring the UK so you could see her in Southampton, Nottingham, Cardiff, Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Birmingham, Oxford, Brighton, Leicester and Southend.

T's and C's apply. Southend. Not very New York, is it? I'm not going to go there. No, I'm just saying it's not so much the Big Apple. Nice days out there. Oh, right. Okay. Interesting woman, isn't she?

And I do think, I mean, it's depressing. woman isn't she and um i do think i mean it's depressing her take on male power is is depressing isn't it um i mean she probably knows what she's talking about but is it hard to hear it is hard to hear are we on being unreasonable is it unreasonable just expect better to hope for better but there is better out there i mean you, you know, there are... People don't vote for it, though. Well, I mean... Or they're inclined not to. You can't accuse Joe Biden of the very worst of things, can you? No.

And you can't accuse... But that shouldn't make him... It's pathetic. It shouldn't make him remarkable. Well, it's really good that he's not been found likely to have sexually assaulted somebody. That's fantastic. Oh, dear God.

Anyway, yes, I thought she was interesting. And it's just good to hear just a view of what life was like at a time that perhaps most of us, certainly I wasn't fully aware of what was, I mean, according to her, was apparently accepted in male behaviour. So you and I have just been saying this until we're blue in the face. You know, what is also so remarkable, but not remarked upon enough, is the fact that men see this behaviour going on just as much as women, but it really has been left to women to call it out.

So, you know, all of the men who surrounded Clinton, all of the men who surround Trump, are probably witness to so many more things than an awful lot of women, apart from the women who are abused. And then it's just up to those lone women to become the voice of accountability and outrage and to try and get justice.

And that's where it's wrong, Jane. It's easier for men to call out other men than it is for a woman to call out a man. And that's the bit that still really makes me livid. Because you just know that people will listen. Some people will listen to Candice Bushnell. And in their head, they will hear a shrill woman making loud judgments and they will hear misandry.

But you have to have that in the conversation because there aren't enough men saying, why don't you stop doing that? And let us all reserve a very special contempt for the women who were prepared to side with the men. Well, there is that. That's just maddening. But actually contempt for the men who stand alongside the men. Oh, there is that. But actually content for the men who stand alongside.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Anyway, she is a life force, isn't she? And it was very nice to talk to her. It was exhausting to talk to her. It was quite tiring. But very good. Right. Now, Jane Rankin is upset with you because she

had asked you to read a little piece that was being complimentary and we didn't. No, no, you don't have to do that. No, you do it. No, we don't have to do it at all, but let's just say hello to Jane Rankin because she sounds like a very nice person. And obviously I'm saying that because she said nice things about me. No, you do sound very nice, Jane. Yeah, you said it was lovely.

Yeah, I love you more. Right, okay, that's quite enough. So get in touch if you'd like to. We need a new topic to throw in as well, don't we? What shall we choose? Pen tapping? Pen tapping's good. Pen tapping. Have you got a secret skill?

I mean, I think paper bag twizzling or swizzling can be either. Is it a twizzle? Is it a swizzle? It's an amazing thing to be discussing because I just, in no part of my lifetime did I ever think I'd be talking about that and I love it okay I would love to have a conversation actually about the lost arts the miniature lost art yeah exactly that would be good wouldn't I think the things of beauty that just sort of lurk in the corner of our lives did you ever have one of those shoe cleaning boxes

which had the raised wooden kind of shoe imprint on it? No. So they were wooden boxes, square wooden boxes. They were specifically for cleaning shoes? They absolutely were. So you put all of your shoe cleaning stuff inside, all of your brushes and your waxes and all that kind of stuff. I actually miss the smell of shoe wax.

That's a nice smell. It is a nice smell, yeah. And then you'd shut the box and you'd put your foot on this raised bit, so when you bent down your foot was at this angle. Oh, I see, yeah. 45 degree angle and it was easier to clean your shoes. My kids don't clean their shoes or if they do clean their shoes, they'll get a wet wipe

and just wipe their shoes. Well, no, don't say it like that. They're absolutely beautiful, lovely kids but shoe cleaning has just gone out of their lives. It's a lost art. Yeah. Some of out of their lives. It's a lost art. Yeah. There we are. Some of those have been terrific.

Okay. The lost arts, the special skills. Jane and Fee at Times Talk Radio. Goodbye. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast

Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at 3 o'clock Monday until Thursday every week

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