Off Air... with Jane and Fi - There are so many men at the top of mountains (with Ray Mears)

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

Today on the merry-go-round of fun that is Off Air, Fi and Jane M are pitching for dating apps to start basing their matches on the state of your kitchen.They're joined by Ray Mears to talk about his new soundscape playlist: 'The Sounds of Adventure'. Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Give it some bloody welly like Joan Collins does. Exactly. I want abnormality in my interviews. Yes, I want it to be different. I don't want them to be cooking a roast chicken and just wearing their hair in a ponytail. I don't want that at all. No, I want them to be a bath of caviar. With wigs.

Yeah. Apropos of our conversation yesterday, I feel like I manifested the front page of the Times today. My young colleague, Blanca Schofield, is looking resplendent on the cover, on the puff, as we call it in the trade, saying, I wouldn't date a Tory. Why are young women a more left-wing?

It's brilliant. I feel like we manifested that. Yeah, so we were having this conversation, weren't we? But not linked to anything other than us just chatting about politics. And then the news story dropped yesterday about young women being more left-wing and young men being increasingly right-wing. And then obviously we turned it into a

would-you-date-a-Tory feature. So you're giving quite a bit of yourself away there. No. No, okay. No, I'm just saying. just saying yep just saying we manifested that we did why do you think it is that women would kind of slightly drift to the left on the motorway of politics and men to the right so blank who is in her 20s has written one part of it and alice thompson has written another part of it and part of alice's analysis is that you know over the last 50 odd years obviously women have become you know more emancipated in many many ways um and that part of that is basically there are more

women in higher education 100 women in higher education for every 88 men. Graduates across the world are more left-leaning. So it's not just about women, it's also about men, particularly Gen Z, becoming more right-wing. They're angry because they're accused by progressives of being overprivileged. It's a great piece. Anyway, I'm just saying it's well worth reading both sides of this.

Yeah, it's really interesting. But Blanca does say that she would never swipe. Which one is the right one when you say yes? Right? Yeah, it's really interesting. But Blanca does say that she would never swipe... Which one is the right one when you say yes? Right? She would never swipe right on her right wing. Which I think... I don't know. But you don't always know, do you?

Well, interestingly, I think people... Sometimes you can tell. You can tell, yeah, when they're, you know, wearing their Thatcher badge in the picture. When I was playing with the apps a little bit, men who were right-wing definitely described themselves as moderate on there, which was just a sure sign that they were not moderate. They were quite right-wing.

But I did do a piece about, I must have been after Trump was elected, about this American dating app called Writer, which was specifically set up for Republicans because they felt that nobody swiped right on them on normal dating apps. So they had to have a specific dating app for people who had voted for Trump. What kind of people did you find on there? People with guns. Right. And actually an incredibly hot former Marine

who I interviewed for it. Just interviewed? Sadly, yes. Just checking, kids. Just checking. And do you know what, Fi? I'd have been very much prepared to put aside his vote.

Oh, God. Look, Mulkerrans. Stop it. Stop it. Because he did lots of humanitarian aid work now. Well, I think... That's why. It's a tricky one, though, isn't it?

Because you can't say that everybody who, you know, nor should you believe that everybody who has right-wing beliefs is either extremist or unpalatable or doesn't also have a kind heart. And it's just too easy at the moment, isn't it, to apply the really, really, really broad brushstroke of dismissal. So, yeah, I hear you. But I don't think I would ever have put my toe in the water of a very, very specific dating app

that was based on only political beliefs. I think that's just a bit too much. Although I did think, because I did the apps myself, finding myself to be single at 48, which was a bit of a surprise. And I did think, I don't want this to be it in my life, actually. I thought, okay, I'm just going to approach this situation in exactly the same way that I've tried to approach everything else,

which is desperately try and find a solution to it and work hard at it. So I did the apps. And I did often think that actually more relevant questions should be asked and, you know, the answers would guide you so much better. If they were to do with politics, I think actually if you just ask somebody

to take a photograph of the state of their kitchen, I think stuff like that, because when you allow people to self-identify in their biographies, it's just dreadful, Jane. Top five condiments, five to one. As you know, that's my favourite question of all time. And it's very revealing. If someone says ketchup, ketchup, ketchup, ketchup, ketchup, not for me. But those really big kind of

belief system things i think it would just be helpful uh to to know wouldn't it so maybe we could think of some questions i tell you what in miriam margulies in the second volume of her autobiography um which i think is called oh miriam isn't it she she does a list of 25 questions that you should actually ask of people when you meet them at drinks parties, dinner parties, on the bus, you know, whatever it is. And they are so phenomenal. I will bring those in and just read a couple of those next week because they are so,

I can only think of the incredibly rude ones, which is why I can't give you an example at the moment. But when I read through the list, I thought, you know, as with lots of things with Miriam Margulies, she was really spot on to, you know, with lots of things with miriam margaret she was really spot on uh to you know just be a little bit more specific because uh you know nobody is fooled by a i like long walks and sunday lunch in a pub traveling they just don't do that and also just don't take a photograph of yourself in lycra at the top of a mountain there's so many men at the top of things

and you know all it says actually to a busy, hardworking mum of two is you're going to be away a lot and you're going to come home with washing. It's just not great. It's not great at all. It is funny. When we got one of our colleagues to write about being a man on dating apps,

Georgina, another colleague, went through his photos and she was like, nope, nope, nope. And he was like, but I like cycling. And I feel like I'm misrepresenting myself if I don't have a picture of me at my cycling issues. Nope. They need help. They do need help.

And just as a little tip, you know, if there are any gentlemen of a certain age on the dating app, I honestly, honestly would say just take a picture of yourself in a domestic environment. It's less threatening. more appealing it is more realistic it's what we're probably doing so you know just that i've won something and i'm wearing sports kit it's i caught a fish it's not it's just a bit too cliched actually we don't we don't really care i don't think no no right we've got lovely lovely emails and this one comes from Gobsmacked

of Oxford. By the way we should say that this is Jane Mulkerrin's last day with us on the merry-go-round of fun that is off air until I think Jane Garvey's next pleasure week which is Can we not call it that?

No we are going to call it that Couple P couple W I think she's off Which is... Can we not call it that? No, we are going to call it that. Capital P, capital W. I think she's off to an island setting. Is it Ibiza? Late May, it very much is. Yeah, she's got the calling of the Balearic Beats. So you'll be back for that. I will.

And also, just to plug, I'm also on Times Radio very regularly, on your live show every Thursday. I'll be on Hugo Rifkin's show on Saturday morning. Basically, you just can't escape me. No. If you tune into anything remotely Times Radio related, I'll be there. But you've been given a beautiful voice for the radio.

Thank you very much. I mean, it's really, you know, it works, doesn't it? Thank you. Don't you think? It's particularly croaky today yeah but it's very smack of a slightly late night really okay is that rare during the week for you what's the right answer no it's not listeners it's just not we know that you know that do you what somebody once wrote to me and said i'm doing a PhD about female voices on the radio and the fact that

most female on voices on the radio tend to be very deep um would you have time to contribute to my PhD and I was quite busy at the time so I phoned her up and said no I can't I am in my 20s I used to do the pay-per-view reviews on the phenomenal Nick Ferrari's breakfast show quite a lot um I mean there is no better person to learn at the knee of I love that man um and it did involve you know getting up at 6am and um wheeling myself into LBC and you know I was 20 nothing and going out an awful lot during the week so the voice voice was, I mean, yeah, I mean, it was sort of the sort of thing that narwhals can hear. And a lot of people used to write in and say, who's that bird with the voice? And that sounds quite hot.

And then equal numbers of people used to ring in and say, Jamal Karen sounds like she's got laryngitis and someone should take her to hospital. So, you know, mixed reviews. Yes, yeah, you have got that kind of timbre, which sometimes when people are very ill, they have. Just leave that with you. I'm feeling fine, though. Good. In case anyone worried. Right, back

to gobsmacked of Oxford, who says I was somewhat gobsmacked by the emailer yesterday who wanted to call out her financial advisor for suggesting she didn't need life insurance due to not being the bread winner, blah, blah, blah. The thing I was gobsmacked by wasn't the FA's attitude, but the fact that her husband can't work the dishwasher or the washing machine without help. What is this still going on?

I married a man who'd lived on his own in a flat and who can look after and feed himself completely. I'm not sure I would have married him if he couldn't even wash his own undies. But he married a nurse who works long shifts and we established a distribution of labour early in our relationship that worked for us. We split the cleaning. In particular, I hate hoovering. So he does that and I mop the floors. We share the laundry. I probably cook more as I love it. But whenever I'm working a 12 hour day shift, I get home to dinner all ready for me and usually before a night shift too. How is it fair that one person does it all under any circumstances? And why do men need to be looked after like that?

I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone I'm expected to care for in every way as well as work or even if I didn't work. Surely everyone can shove the dishwasher on at the end of the evening and put a wash on. I'm sure your emailer is lovely, but she's doing herself a disservice. Enable your husband to look after himself and you in a fair way. I feel like there is a definitive link between not valuing domestic work

and the fact that men are in many cases don't do it themselves and aren't expected to. Women, you are not helping your own cause. I'm sure that lots of people, when they were listening to the podcast, probably felt something similar. I would just not want to judge the kind of balance of duties in somebody else's relationship

if it's working for them. But I absolutely am with you on certainly not sending out into the world a young man who can't do those very simple things because it's not right and you know there is no kind of females only button on a washing machine and also it's just really it's just really not complicated no it's really not complicated no literally teach a man to fish um yeah i also think you know demographically we're all staying single for a lot longer and marrying later and stuff like what do young men do in their 20s and early 30s you know if they can't cook or clean or what i

mean live in squalor yeah but also i do think um you are denying men the opportunity to find, you know, what they actually really enjoy doing. If you say this is a more female activity and this is more male activity. And I genuinely, and I'm lucky because I don't have to do it all the time, you know, I come to work. So my doing of the laundry for me is a really lovely, quiet, contemplative, I can actually method results conclusion it as a pastime. I did it on my own.

I shut the door. Nobody's allowed to kind of ask me anything. So I really enjoy it. I wouldn't want to deny my son the opportunity to find things in the house that actually calm him down too. So I hear you gobsmacked. I do hear you and i'm sorry if we sent your blood pressure through the roof uh but also i just you know if if it was working

for them as a couple and i think actually our original uh listener she she was doing half of the business work as well wasn't she in the family business uh so that was the point too We've got several emails responding to the Round Britain quiz answer that you were part of Oh god yes We didn't know the rest of the answers there was you and I got Donald Glover but we were confused by

one of the other questions and Yeovil the bullying PE teacher who bullied Billy Casper's character in the film Kez, that was Brian Glover and Yeovil Town are nipping the Glovers because of a history of glove making there, so thank you very much to Glyn

and Helena and Donna and everyone else who's written in with those answers, you do know a lot you lot they do don't they, they do so yes apologies for my ignorance about Yeovil Town as well and I think one of our lovely correspondents did also say that they are going to make it their mission to get Jane Garvey as an answer on the Round Britain quiz to stop us having a fight.

And write in with what you think the question should be. Yeah, that's a very good call, actually. Let's have a think on that. Yeah, retrofit that. Yeah, OK. Yeah. Good, good. Good suggestion. You go for it. Oh, just. Yeah. Good, good. Good suggestion.

You go for it. Oh, just on the Spudgy-like Spadula K. Yes. I was about to read that one too. Quite a few people have pointed out that Spudgy-like does still exist, largely because James Martin has bought out the chain. Who knew? Yes, another reason to adore James Martin, which I do.

Yeah, I know. It's a quirk. I am floored by that. Talk me through that TV crush. It's a difficult one to explain. I just think he looks nice in a cricket jumper. Sorry? He's clearly a man who...

Oh, no, no, no. I've definitely seen him in a cricket jumper. Sorry? He's clearly a man who... Oh, no, no, no. I've definitely seen him in a cricket jumper. He is a man... He looks nice in a cricket jumper. The bar's low. I just think... I don't want to be rude about James Martin, but, like, you know, he's a strapping man.

And he's a man who clearly, if he went out for dinner, you know, he'd have appetites. He's not a man who clearly, if you went out for dinner, you know, he'd have appetites. He's not a man who's going to, you know, have a salad, is he? And, you know, I just think that's quite fun. He'd be a fun man to go out for dinner with. Or make you dinner. Well, he's going to serve you jacket potatoes. Which would be absolutely...

If James Martin made me a jacket potato, I tell you what, that would be a night. I'm intrigued as to what James Martin does with a spud you like. I mean, is it going to go... Counts his money, presumably. Buys another sports car. But is he going to try and put truffle oil on top of them all? Things like that. I wouldn't want truffle oil on a jacket potato.

I find truffle a bit petrally. Oh, I don't like truffle oil at all. I just think it... Why do we have truffle oil on so many things now? It stinks. Do you know what I mean? It's petrally. Yeah, I think it just smells a bit sewagey. Anyway, well, apparently you can. Oh, this is actually Suzanne has said,

you can now indulge in such delights as prawn cocktail and chickpea dal at James Martin's Spadula Cay. But fear not, beans and cheese are still available. Okay, well, that's good to know. Now, hello, Ruthie Darling. Ruthie Darling was one of our very first contactors on the Off-Air project. It's very nice to hear from you again.

Ruthie has got a complaint to put out to the world. I wonder if you'd mind talking about the current hellscape that is the 2024 job market. I guess I'm looking for listener solidarity here. At the end of 2023, my freelance work fell off a cliff, presumably due to the recession, and I found that my inbox was as empty as Victoria Beckham's fridge. Now that's nasty, but Jane Mulkerran's laughed.

Panicked and unsure of my future, I started to apply for full-time jobs in my field. I wonder whether Victoria Beckham has ever visited a Spudgy like and asked for a large jacket potato. Since the beginning of the year, I've applied for over 100 positions and received exactly three responses, all of which have been rejections. But the one I received today really takes the biscuit. I'd applied for a fairly junior position at a small creative agency in London. Naturally, I received a rejection letter. This time, though, I decided to ask for feedback as the job description had been rather vague. What were their inexpressible

criteria, I wondered. Their response, we hired someone who'd won a BAFTA. Two things, says Ruthie. First of all, who is this lunatic who, after winning a BAFTA, decided that their next career move was a junior mid-level position at a small creative agency? Secondly, what the hell am I supposed to do with this feedback aside from, you know, win a BAFTA? I'm all for upskilling, but this seems ludicrous. If any other listeners are in this position,

I'd love to know about it as I feel like I'm going insane. And I'm really happy to put this one out here, Ruthie. Also, if anyone needs a photographer, video editor, writer or court jester, please send them my way. I don't have a BAFTA, but I do have that magical combo of rapidly diminishing self-esteem and sheer financial desperation, a winning skill set for most modern employers. Thanks, ladies. Well, Ruthie, I'm sorry to hear that you haven't found it easy to pick up work because I've met you in person and I think you would just be an asset to any office. You write brilliantly. You're so funny. You know, that's why we started reading

out your emails on the podcast in the first place. And you've clearly got an awful lot of experience at life. So I hope that by airing that some listeners will come up with some suggestions and even better than that somebody might offer you a job and we have actually thought about doing on the programme a bit more about career changes as well which we could do and apart from anything else we are the election station at the moment and I think according to the latest YouGov poll, about 140 Conservative MPs will be looking for a change of direction. So we could tie it in quite neatly to that. It's a peg to hang it on, isn't it?

But Ruthie, I'm really sorry, because honestly, when I met you, I just thought, what a fantastic human being. So you'd have so much to offer somebody. And yeah, I'd be intrigued as well to know who won a BAFTA. Absolutely. just thought what a fantastic human being uh so you'd have so much to offer somebody and uh yeah i've been intrigued as well to know who won a bafta absolutely and as then presumably uh you know it's not really the career trajectory hasn't really carried on for them either so lots to talk about there jane and fiat times dot radio is our email address uh solidarity ruthie as well about freelance work i think it's really tough out there for a lot of

freelancers right now I was freelance for about 12 years before I took this job during Covid because my freelance work was just entirely dwindling um to the point where I had to borrow money to pay my rent so you know I absolutely hear you on how tough it is out there and I don't think things have really picked up since Covid I think you know all sorts of shifts in working patterns have really affected freelance work and rates seem to go down while inflation goes up you know it's it's really tough so um yes just to echo what fee said um i think ruthie you you know hopefully there'll be lots of job offers coming your way it'd be nice wouldn't? Yeah. I have a lovely email from another Ruth who says she normally doesn't ever stop herself

mid-stride on her dog walks in rainy Edinburgh, saying, no, that's wrong, but it's very rare that she catches a factual inaccuracy. But she did on Monday's show. I was recording my Cambridge years long ago and saying how sad it was that the Newhall Drinking Society was no more, which you'd mentioned, that was the thing you remembered about my university career, that I was president of my drinking society.

And I have to say, it is my proudest achievement ever. Yeah, well, I didn't have to force it out. No, no. I'm really very, very proud of it. Anyway, Ruth says her daughter recently graduated from Murray Edwards, as it's now called. It changed its name thanks to a benefactor. Also coming from state school,

Cambridge's stats on state school students is actually much improved these days, which is very true. It's like 75% or something. Anyway, she was inducted into the Newhall Harlots,

which is the drinking society, and it's one of her favourite moments of her time there. So Ruth says it is alive and thriving. But it has also changed its name because it was the Newhall Nymphs when I was president. Did it when they became harlots?

Certainly not in my day. What does a... Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but at a drinking society, what do you do? Yeah, I mean, the clue is in the name, but it is a really antiquated kind of set up.

But in my day, the mixed colleges had a male drinking society and a female drinking society. And people had different ways of going about recruiting them. Someone actually emailed in to say that they found it quite elitist because people were sort of selected. And, you know, you got a little message in your pigeonhole. It really wasn't like that at my college. My friend Hannah was president of the drinking society when I arrived and she said, you seem fun, come and join this. And what we did was we would, there would be 12 boys

who we would invite, another drinking society from a male or mixed college, and we would say, would you like to come to Formal Hall on Tuesday at our college? And we'd buy the dinner tickets, they would buy two bottles of extremely bad white wine. Then they'd come and have dinner with us. We would neck the white wine in a savage and really horrible kind of a way. If someone dropped a penny in your glass, you had to down it. Yeah, it led to all the carnage you can imagine by about half the date.

But what distinguishes... And then we'd all shot off to the horrible nightclub Cindy's. What distinguishes a drinking club from, you know, just student drinking activity? Yeah, you've got a name. You know, it's organised. Yeah, I mean, it is just themed drinking. Yeah.

You could play football before it or rowing. I was on the football team and I ran, I edited the university newspaper. Whoa. Yeah, did I belong to any other clubs? I think that was about it. Okay. I was quite busy. I did go to a lot of, you know, I wrote a lot of essays as well.

Went to a lot of parties. Editing the paper was not a sabbatical post, so I did that alongside my degree. Whoa. Yeah, didn't sleep a lot that year. Very, very good experience though. It was really fun. I got taken to Press Complaints Commission by the

Cambridge University Conservative Association. What did you say? I actually can't remember what the complaint was about. They didn't like a news story and then the Press Complaints Commission wrote to me and wrote to them and said that we should print a letter that they wrote.

I think basically they complained and I didn't print the letter. The Press Complaints Commission said, please print their letter, but you can edit it as you see fit. So I did. So I think I won that one. They were practising to be grown-up Tories and I was practising to be a grown-up journalist. And so do you recognise an awful lot of people

at the higher echelons of public life now who you knew as the person who belonged to the drinking society on their booze one night? My contemporaries are in so many different fields. There are some people who are in politics and the media and law and those sorts of things. But equally there's people who are you know teachers and um doctors and you know work in the public sector um yeah

we're not interested in those we're interested in the famous people that you know stuff about i went to university with quite a lot of actors and directors and they sort of thing and the sons and daughters of lots of actors and directors. It did sometimes feel like everybody else's parents had a BAFTA, actually. Or a film company. Or an Oscar. Yeah, Nipo Hall. Right, now you're going to do a final reading from Parkin after we've heard our big interview of the day,

which is from ray mayers now he is talking about a really amazing thing that he's got himself involved with which is called the sounds of adventure and it's a playlist that you can find on spotify he'll explain a little bit more about it but it basically takes you around the world in soundscapes so you can hear really really beautiful sounds of you know the jungle waking up in the morning uh harbors in finland really beautiful things and if you want to just be taken outside of your normal world i think it is a wonderful thing to listen to anyway he joined us from his home in West Sussex. We have quite a long chat about all kinds of things, but the obvious place to start is between his ears. Well, it's been put together by Exodus Travel, who are celebrating 50 years of being in business. And they came up with the idea

of trying to make people alert to the sounds of the places they go to. So they've set up a series of 12 inspirational sounds from around the world, which you can access on Spotify or on their website. And they asked me if I'd help promote it. And I thought, well, you know, I love the idea. I think it's fantastic. And having been one of those people who've been able to travel to very remote parts of the world where there are fewer distractions from human society. Sound has become a very important part of what I do. So I was really pleased to be involved. I think it's such a lovely idea. And you're absolutely right. We live in such a visual world. And especially when we're talking about travel or adventure, it's the sights that get thrown at us all of the time, isn't it? And rightly so, because, you know, that's amazing.

But the sounds are so important. What we're going to do with this interview, Ray, is our very, very talented producer is going to weave a couple of these tracks underneath as we talk. So our listeners will be able to hear a dawn chorus in Vermont. They'll also be able to hear the early morning atmosphere at the sleepy harbour of Pepperskar Harman in Finland. Have I pronounced that correctly?

I'm not sure. I think, I hope you have. Let's run with it. Let's go with it with gusto. Nobody will know. And also a Masai Mara warrior song. Do you travel with your ears, though, or do you travel with your eyes? Both. I was a photographer, still am a photographer,

so I'm very moved by what I see. But I use all of my senses in exploring nature outdoors and if I've got one regret it's that I haven't taken with me a recorder to record some of the sounds that I've encountered I mean just literally three weeks ago I was lucky enough to be in Borneo and at dusk you know you get into your hammock and the jungle is really full of noise and I like that sound like it lulls me to sleep but that particular evening there were two hornbills in a tree just a little bit to the left of me in the canopy and you could hear them clacking their bills and um i think they're pairing up i suspect that it's that time of year the rainy season's come to an end and it was just the most

there but you could you could hear the delicacy of the courtship you know in in that sound and moments like that it's important to drink them in i think you know it's very easy to just let them slip past unnoticed what else is in the sound of the jungle at that time of day? Well, at that time of day, it's full. I mean, literally, people who are not used to being in the rainforest, they have trouble getting to sleep because of the noise in the evening because the insects are crescendoing. You can have howler monkeys calling, depending on where you are.

But by dawn, when you first wake up it's gone quiet and there is that moment I love to listen for that moment when the day begins and you get these sentinels that start and it's not as you'd imagine a linear thing it's exponential you get one sound and then there are four and then there are too many and you know dawn is upon you I love that so do you have to be very careful about the human sounds that you're making and do you notice that the the natural world stops when you make what would be a very foreign sound to them that's a really good question and you I sometimes call back to the animals um so um I always remember doing it I was on a solo canoe trip in Canada and um I'd been trying to get close to a really big black bear

but the black bear wasn't having any of it and I realized I now had to turn and head for home and I spun the canoe around and the compass needle. It's a lovely moment. And there was a bald eagle above me. And it was just watching me from above. You're never alone when you're alone, if you know what I mean. And I called to the eagle and the eagle stopped in flight and looked back. Did that person say something to me? And circled and then gave a call and was gone. And I didn't, you know, it was really special,

that moment of communication that you wouldn't have necessarily if there was another person with you. God, that's giving me the tingles, absolute tingles. You're 60 now, is that correct? Oh, thanks for reminding me. You look good on it, Ray. How does your sense of adventure and experience of the world change over the years? Do you think about the world in a very different way now that you're 60?

Let's just pick a random number back when you were 28. I understand it better. I can see the impact of us more clearly, and I can see that there are more of us than there were. I worry about the future of our planet because we don't seem to be able to get on with each other. I mean, the big threat to the world is actually humans being in conflict with one another. And I've never seen that I'm sure none of us have ever seen that in a worse state than it is at the moment we seem as a society as a species to allow individuals to have a malicious influence

on the world in a way that should never be permitted. And I've come to the feeling more and more that human society, we're like sheep. We're not very good at leading or finding a way. We follow a little bit blindly. And I wish human society were more like the leopard, more individual. I feel really strongly about that. The state of the world is a mess. What else could we learn from the leopard?

The leopard gets on with its life. It doesn't want to be bothered by other things. If you cross it, you better watch out because it won't back off. And you know exactly where you stand with a leopard there's a there's a there's there's a beauty in that I really like I respect the leopard it's it's courageous it won't it won't necessarily back down but it doesn't look for trouble either and so it's actually easy to get on with a leopard you you know where you stand with it. It's reliable. It's firm in its purpose and its beliefs. We are able to see more of it because people travel more, people send us pictures more, everything is Instagrammed.

We have access to more information about the natural world than ever before, but we respect it less and less. That's such a strange dichotomy, isn't it? How has that happened? Why has that happened? Well, I think when you watch wildlife on television, it doesn't matter who the presenter is. It could be me or somebody else. It doesn't matter. It's not the same as being there in the field for yourself. Even the smallest observation in nature happening in grassland, for example, a nest full of skylark chicks, You can never replace that sort of experience by something lived out through a television screen or a device screen. It's not the same thing. And we have to get out and let nature into our souls by actually contacting it. That's the key thing.

Where do you see all of that best represented in politics in this country? We're in an election year. It's going to be febrile. The environment actually takes an interesting place in the yet to be written, but possibly already written manifestos, doesn't it? It seems to have really slid down the political agenda quite a lot. it seems to have really slid down the political agenda quite a lot. I think it's inevitable that it will slide down the political agenda in terms of world conflict and financial issues. I understand that, but actually there is nothing more fundamental for our well-being physically and spiritually than clean air, clean water,

clean food, and the spiritual benefits that come from that. When we were in lockdown, a lot of people found the open spaces a panacea to their stresses that they were experiencing at that time. And of course, a lot of people went to our open spaces. Since then, many of these places now have car park meters where people are trying to make money out of people visiting our open spaces, which actually denies access to a whole raft of people in society who can't afford to pay seven pounds a day to visit the countryside. I think we have to reassess our values as a nation and start to decide what's really important. And I think nothing is more important than the environment within which we

live. Our politics, everything hinges around that. Do you get approached by political parties to you know add your stamp of approval to them? No I don't I think they're probably a little scared of me I guess I'm a bit like Treebeard in Lord of the Rings I'm not really on anyone's side I'm on the side of the trees and the side of nature and I try to avoid politicians like the plague I just don't trust them they have far too much self-interest and as I've got older I've come to I'm looking at politicians thinking where have the grown-up politicians gone if you can compare them to the animal kingdom what kind of animal would most that would be very unfair on wildlife. That's very true, isn't it? Let's not damn the two-toed sloth.

Is it still true that you're finding it hard to use technology, Ray? I've read that you don't like the kind of the pay for things on an app thing at all. You simply don't use them. Is that still true? If so, how are you getting by on a day-to-day basis? I can use technology as well as anybody else, but I'm not excited by it anymore. There was a time, I think, what, 20 years ago, I was trying to keep up to date with all the developments and it seemed really exciting.

And now I feel that the technology is just being invented to try and exploit us and to enslave us. I'm not excited by that. I'm quite happy to turn my phone off. And it's quite interesting. I met last year a 16-year-old who said that he felt isolated because he didn't do social media. And this was a young man man said this to an audience and the audience were horrified that this this this young young person who understood exactly how he was being manipulated by the people who run the apps had the guts to not use it and yet felt completely

isolated it's a really interesting time that we live through. To my mind, technology is something we create to assist us in our lives. We should never allow it to dominate our lives. And to do so is folly. And we'll end up paying a serious price for that. Are you hopeful for the future, though? Do you see this as maybe, you know, kind of dark period in the planet where there might be a brighter time ahead, because actually so many of us individually are in quite a pickle. I actually am very hopeful. And in a strange way, you see the greatest light in times of greatest darkness. And I think you can look at a few things recently, for example, the felling, the malicious felling of the sycamore tree on Hadrian's Wall. The strength of reaction

to that tree gives hope. I think ordinary people know what's important. What we have to do is get that message across to the policymakers in the world so that they actually pay serious regard to people's concerns and interests and find a way to manage all of the things that we have to balance in life. But I'm hopeful. I'm really encouraged by that. I feel that we've lost a generation to the outdoors. I think there's a 20 to 30-year- generation who are many of them don't go outdoors some some do and do incredible things but there are a lot that don't they're more interested in their devices but i do see teenagers now going back outdoors and that gives me hope too right whether that's a result of the forest schools movement i

don't know but certainly we're seeing youngsters now less interested in the technology and wanting to discover nature again yeah they need to feel the wind on their skin don't they yeah and they need to enjoy nature not not just feel that they're being burdened with the responsibility to correct the problems i mean it was our generation that really identified that there were problems. And movement is now moving in the right direction to try and address that. Society is a super tank. You're trying to get it to change direction. It takes time. But I am genuinely hopeful for the future. I think it's such a good point to make that we

can't burden the next generation with solving our problems. We can't just go, you know, good luck with that because, you know, the weight of that must just be horrendous. Final question, just for my own personal curiosity. What does an adventurer do all day? Do you have really kind of we're talking on Tuesday at about 20 past one in the afternoon. What does the rest of your day look like? Do you ever settle down to watch a bit of Pointless in the afternoon. What does the rest of your day look like? Do you ever settle down to watch a bit of Pointless in the afternoon?

Very, no, at the moment I'm writing. So I'm deep in, my mind is full of things I want to get down onto paper. So that's what I'm working on at the moment. Okay. And you'll be outside then at some point, I hope. Yeah, always, every day. I go outdoors every day.

Ray Mears. So if you want to download that playlist, you can find it on all of the necessary music platforms. Just search for The Sounds of Adventure. I really, really, really enjoyed spending a bit of time in Ray Mears' company, Jane. I think not least because, and you'll understand this, I hope, when you're interviewing people, it is so lovely

when you realise you're with somebody who has a certainty about themselves. So whatever it is that you're going to ask them, they don't have to stop to think, what am I going to say? How am I going to say this? How should I say this to make myself sound better? They just give of themselves immediately, don't they? And I think Ray Mears is absolutely one of those people. He just knows who he is, knows what he's about.

Absolute pleasure to talk to him. Yeah, the people who know who they are are such a delight. I went through a spell of interviewing a lot of old actors, you know, sort of in their 70s and 80s. And if I could just interview, you know, of in their 70s and 80s and if I could just interview you know actors in their 70s and 80s I really would because they know exactly who they are and they're not trying to sell themselves to anyone um and they just they sort of don't care they're not trying to please anyone well that's good to hear because actually Garve and I have a bit of a thing uh about the younger, actors who are still in full flow.

And it's to do with the media circuit these days and all the PR stuff and the kind of contracts they sign, but they're so boring to talk to. Yeah, it's very hard to get anything interesting out of them. Yeah, because they're so media trained, and I understand that. You know, they're worried about their next job, they're worried about being cancelled. There's a lot of pressure on them to say the right thing

or to say nothing at all. Yeah, and even the print interviews, you know, where you're invited them to say the right thing or to say nothing at all. Yeah. And even the print interviews, you know, where you're invited back to, you know, Keira Knightley's home or whatever it is, I don't really want to pick on her specifically, but, you know, those interviews, they always, in the first paragraph, they kind of contain something along the lines of, I was amazed at their normality. Yeah.

And you just think, OK, well, it's probably not their normality. It's probably not their flat that they've asked you back to. And also, is that the thing that as the reader you're meant to be invested in somebody's normality?

Give it some bloody welly like Joan Collins does. Exactly. I want abnormality in my interview. I want it to be different. I don't want them to be cooking a roast chicken

and just wearing their hair in a ponytail. I don't want that at all. I want them to be a bath of caviar. With wigs. Right, take it away with parking, lady. This is spookily relevant to what we've been talking about.

I was sent the script of a television play called Ghostwatch by Stephen Volk. I was to play the part of the host of the eponymous television show about the supernatural, which, one awful night, was invaded by a malignant spirit. The play attracted an audience of more than 8 million, but sadly also made news headlines when a young man committed suicide after watching the programme. His family claimed he'd been affected by what he'd seen on television,

and the consequence was that the play was never repeated until very recently, when it appeared as a DVD. Much to my amazement and delight I was nominated for a BAFTA. It wasn't exactly my acting debut. Previously I'd appeared in Brookside and in Madhouse, a horror film starring Vincent Price which involved him setting fire to himself in a TV studio as I interviewed him. Don't ask why, because I never did work it out. Vincent was a joy to work with, an urbane man with a deep knowledge of art and a great lover of racehorses. When he was making Dr Pheebs at Bray Studios, he would take his lunch alone, sitting by the River Thames wearing his hideous makeup-up. When passing pleasure boats full of eager tourists were informed by their guides that these were the studios where many horror movies were made,

Vincent would appear on the bank, and taking a sandwich from his picnic box, he would shove it slowly into a hole at the side of his throat. Richard Curtis gave me a part in Love Actually. Richard Curtis gave me a part in Love Actually I had to interview Bill Nye playing a mad rock and roller with shameless exhibitionist tendencies these included exposing himself to me during the interview

the audience just saw his back and of course he didn't really show me his willy but there were those who believed he did for some time I was approached at social gatherings by attractive young ladies who had asked me what the gorgeous Mr Nye was really like to work with and then would ask again but what is he really like in that nudge nudge wink wink kind of a way. After a while I stopped trying to explain to them that filming movies is make-believe, and I found a

one-word answer that stopped any further pursuit of the truth. Frightening, I would say. Good night. Don't have nightmares. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe.

And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run

or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener.

I know, sorry.