Off Air... with Jane and Fi - There's always nuance... (with Prof. Kate Williams)

Episode Date: August 7, 2024

Fi of Slough and Jane the Short and Wise bring you this name-centric episode. Amongst the discussion of surnames, maiden names, middle names and names of origin, there's also a sprinkling of police child-care, Elon Musk and Nordic Noir. Plus, historian Prof. Kate Williams discusses her new podcast with Robert Hardman 'Queens, Kings and Dastardly Things'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Is that true? Yes. Is that backed up by fact and statistics? It absolutely is. Wow. I just would have thought it had fallen away. I know you think I just make things up. No, I don't. Honestly. Sometimes. Hello. Now this is a podcast called Off Air. How long has it been going on for? Well, I think we started in October 2022. Wow. That's gone so quickly. So we're coming up to our second anniversary. I don't know what that is. What is it? Well, it's beyond paper.

Cardboard? Yeah. Yeah. A sturdy cardboard box. That's what we'll be marking in October. Now, we are doing the tote bag winners. Ta-da! Ta-da! Yeah, a sturdy cardboard box. That's what we'll be marking in October. Now, we are doing the tote bag winners. Ta-da! Ta-da! So let's do that because let's announce it. Thanks for your, I think this is quite an impeccable bunch of emails we've had over the last 24 hours.

So thank you all for bothering. We do appreciate it. Now to the totes. Now to the totes. Alison Rimmel for her impressive credentials. Alison West and Nicky. Wonderful. Oh, you want me to do them all?

I think it's nicer. No, you do this one. Andy Hillier and his schoolmate, Annette. Emma Way and Katie at the egg farm. Now, I remember that from yesterday. Sally and her secret recipient. Sally's got a secret friend. And Lucy Powell Davis and Eleanor.

I hope it's Eleanor and not Elena, but I'll do both just in case. Congratulations, one and all, and what a wonderful late summer you're all going to have. It'll be wonderful. Your shoulder will be the recipient of such a finely made, sturdy tote bag No other tote bag will do I really do, I think you're right, you know I can be very positive about these bags

They're very decent, they're good quality There's a lot of heft Were the ones at the other place a bit shoddier? I don't think they were anywhere near as good Somebody sent us a picture of a previous incarnation. I couldn't even remember it, Jane. No, all of that is gone. Yeah.

When I say all of it, a large part of it is gone. It was only over 30 years. I barely think about it now. Now, before we get on to the subject that has really got you going, and we've had some funny emails, we've had some thoughtful ones ones we've had some sad ones on the subject of surnames so um thank you all very much but i just briefly wanted to return to the disgraceful behavior in days of your uh of people traveling to cleethorpes for the day yes now this is fascinating i love social history yeah i mean it's all very well learning about your kings and queens yeah

we'll be careful because that's i know that's what we're learning about with our big guests. So that's fascinating, Jane. That's what's called a link. I slightly forgot we had that. Nobody noticed. Go look with some force. Thank you. Be fine.

I was going to say, it's all very well learning about kings and queens and terrible wars. But the stuff that normal people were doing is ultimately of much more interest to many of us that's not to say though that i shan't be thrilling to the words of our guest historian and royal expert kate williams a little bit later but this is from helen who says about cleethorpes fee commiserated with the poor women returning to the station after a long afternoon of hot sunburned childcare to find their hubbies four sheets to the wind under the clock. But it seems that wasn't always the case. Childcare of a sort was available. And this is from a tome, a research by Doreen M. Tyson, to give her full credit for this.

She wrote something called Law and Order in bygone Cleethorpes. It's just incredible that somebody wrote this. When Cleethorpes Police Station was built and that fee was in, shame on you for not knowing. I'm going to hazard a guess at Cleethorpes Police Station. I'm going to say 1872. Brilliant. Room was set aside.

Was it right? Absolutely right. No, you're kidding. I mean, that was a random guess. But it's right. That's extraordinary. Take back your patronising air. Have we got our spooky music?

Oh, we're keeping that for Halloween. Do you know what? I drove through Bromley this week, so maybe that's given me back my powers. Yes, regular listeners, long-term aficionados will know that Fee once had an experience in Bromley. We've sort of left that lying on the file because it's never been fully explored.

We'll do it around Halloween. Right, when Cleethorpe's police station was built in 1872, a room was set aside for the express purpose of receiving children who'd been lost by their parents. The chief constable remarked that as many as 40 squawking children were in the police station at some times, and they were all terrified. We don't know whether that's the children or the police officers. Anyway, the difficulty at Cleethorpes was said to be that mothers from Grimsby, this is shocking, I'm going to have to clear my throat, mothers from Grimsby went into Cleethorpes for the day

and just didn't worry about their children. They'd go out for the day, lose their children and then call in at the police station in the evening to collect them, he added. The chairman said that if a policeman found a child who was lost, it seemed he would just have to take care of it. He added that the room at Cleethorpe's police station was well stocked with toys and had a huge rocking horse, but the noise the children made often interfered

with the conduct of proper police business. The clerk did say it was the duty of police to look after lost property, and a lost child was effectively lost property. So it's childcare of a kind, isn't it? Yes, it is. And I just think it's, I mean, you did draw attention to the possibility that some of these blokes were really getting away with murder,

just getting absolutely arseholes. There were two pubs at the station. Yeah. And they were specifically built for the men to have a drink. To entertain themselves. Well, we made the assumption, and I did it myself, so I made the assumption that women didn't drink and looked after the kids all day.

And some of them did. Some of them did, but some of them obviously just went, no, this is my day out too. You find your own way home, nippers. And, you know, I'll go and have a nice little afternoon kip on the beach well good on you ladies well brilliant and thank you so much for bothering to send that in Helen and

kudos as well to Doreen M Tyson who did the original research Law and Order in bygone Cleethorpes and you're absolutely right it is for me as well as for thousands of others the joy of history always lies in the in the normal person and kate williams podcast and this is what we're talking to about later is

really fabulous because it dwells on the incredibly dastardly nature of characters throughout history so that keeps you thoroughly entertained but you always want to know what the what the servants in the royal household were thinking of oh yeah what they were having to do and who they were having to mop after mop up after and all that kind of stuff and it just sadly you know it's not retained is it as much it's a really good point has there been a book written by so you'd only be courtiers who would have the time to write their accounts of what they were doing. So the voices of those people who were doing the mopping up and probably much worse.

Have just been lost to time. Completely lost, yeah. Anyway. Right, let's do made-up surnames. And I'll tell you what, anyone who can point us in the direction of a little bit more kind of individual normal person history in the form of books and podcasts and stuff like that we would gratefully, gratefully receive them

made up surnames, so this, how did this start? It was a fantastic email from Rebecca Glarvey she had turned us into a portmanteau surname that she might adopt for herself. And it was, yes it was, it was yesterday,, it was. It was yesterday.

But it was only yesterday we've had, like I say, loads of people responding to this. Okay, so this is from Kate Clark who says, a dear friend of mine changed her surname because of her... So this is a serious one. Jane's right to point out there are serious and there are funny coming up. Because her father's continuous violence towards her mother

had oppressed and silenced her family throughout her childhood. So she made up a new name by joining together the first names of her two grandmothers Isabel and Dora becoming Alison Isadora. I find it strange that most women don't seem to question why they bear only their father's name throughout youth and then blithely swap it for their husband's name on marriage. In the Netherlands you can at least choose which parent's name becomes your children's surname. A huge upswing in people changing their names by depot might help move the dial in the UK. Well, I mean, I'm sorry that, you know, that your family have had a change in their name because of a man's violence, but actually what a fantastic thing to do to step away from that connection in a really, really firm and authoritative and official way

and just say, nope, not carrying that surname. And how fascinating that in the Netherlands you can just choose. Well, that reminds me of something I remembered in the middle of the night. The great Liverpool player and Dutch player, Virgil van Dijk, only uses the name Virgil on the back of his shirt. Because it's a dream you were having. No, because he is estranged from his father and he doesn't want his dad's name on his shirt.

Oh. And so it's his name, but he doesn't want it on his shirt. Right. So I think that's interesting. So if you notice him, and actually he's hard not to notice because he's well over three or four. Yeah, he's a huge man. Yeah, and a brilliant player.

But yeah, it just says Virgil on the back of his shirt. Okay. Well, I didn't know that, and that's an interesting detail, and well done him. This is much less serious. From Marie, listening to the surname chat, can I chuck this one into the mix? You can.

My surname is Willie, and yes, as you can imagine, I was the butt of so many playground jokes. Do you remember World Cup Willie? I do. Fee genuinely isn't old enough to remember World Cup Willie. Well, that was the least offensive chant, but it was still very annoying. Children can be very cruel.

Even now, 67 years later, say the name Willie and I'm afraid it does still cause the occasional snigger. Sometimes people will pronounce it Wiley if they are uncomfortable with Willie. I always correct them. Four years ago, I married William Brown. Oh, dear. Four years ago, I married William Brown. Now I had the opportunity to ditch it or maybe go double barrel. Brown, Willie.

Perhaps not. So is Marie. I decided to stick with Willie. And funnily enough, I actually quite like it now. I love the podcast, says Marie. Marie, thank you. Thank you for being a part of it because we'd be nothing without you. And I like your like it now. I love the podcast, says Marie. Marie, thank you. Thank you for being a part of it because we'd be nothing without you

and like your sense of humour. And that's what I mean. There's light and shade in this conversation, isn't there? There's some quite difficult stuff around names. And I think we dismiss names at our peril. This is quite an important topic. But Marie, you've got the spirit of the podcast there. Thank you very much.

Hang on a sec. because I've put my... Well, while you're looking... I've put my names at the bottom of the pile. I just want to bring Simon in, because Simon, he changed his surname when he was at university. My middle name was my mother's choice. Another middle name, Campbell, was a hand-me-down from my father's Scottish side.

I picked my grandmother's grandparents' maiden name, Campbell, was a hand-me-down from my father's Scottish side. I picked my grandmother's grandparents' maiden name, the surname of my recent ancestors that I liked the sound of and signature of the best. In doing so, I felt I'd redressed the balance of my parental interests and asserted a sense of self. It's impressive stuff. But he goes on to say, I am a border force officer, and Fee's experience of being asked on re-entering the UK, are you mum, is all part of our duty to

safeguard children and other vulnerable people. It's section 55 of the Immigration Act 2009. The officer would have been observing behavioural indicators and so on. But I do agree fervently that we ought to be doing the very same on outbound trips. So that's the bit I just don't get. We used to, but the powers that be know best, says Simon. Well, I'm not sure, Simon, that they do, because I would have thought that, you know that a child leaving the country with an adult either not of their own volition or who's not their parent is a far more worrying thing than someone coming back to the UK.

Yeah, I still don't get it, Simon. So if you can explain why the powers that be made that choice. I should have actually said that earlier in the email, Simon pointed out that the reason he felt so strongly about his surname was that it was something of a football between his separating parents as part of their divorce, deciding my surname was part of the settlement, he said. So it's fascinating, isn't it, just how deep it all goes in terms of when you're trying to make a kind of point about your big stance on life. And this one from Kate says,

passing your feminist credentials down the line. So I just listened to you discussing surnames and your mystification, right? Any woman taking her new husband's name. So contrary to maybe how you anticipate the direction of this email, I preface it with, hey, I agree. Why should we as empowered humans in our own right

do this without a backward glance? In my case, I'm incredibly conflicted having done so. And my husband having died not very long into our marriage and now having no contact with his family at all, yet holding their name and yet torn by a feeling that I might let him down if I were to change it posthumously. That's such an interesting take. Isn't it?

Not something I thought of. So you sail on in the world with someone else's name, but not really part of the clan that it's referring to. That's so difficult, isn't it? But feeling a genuine loyalty to the person who's done it, really difficult. Don't know what I'd suggest there. But Kate goes on to say, it's done it. Really difficult. Don't know what I'd suggest there.

But Kate goes on to say, it's not even why I'm writing. Well, it's enough, actually, Kate. But further on in the email, I write because whenever I hear this discussion from women and excuse for any offence caused in advance... Oh, look, we can take it. Because she makes a good point. ...positively puffed up with pride

at their demonstrable calling out of the patriarchy. That's us. I've seen nothing at all to say about their children bearing their husband's name or unmarried but committed couples, i.e. bringing up their kids together, also giving their child their father's name. So in your bemusement at the name-taking phenomenon,

maybe we should ponder on this. And then she signs off with what's in her name, Annie Rose and all that. Well busted. Yeah. I can't, I can't. I am occasionally angry about that. Are you?

Yeah. And why did I just let that happen? And why do so many of us let it happen? And does it matter? Well, it sort of does. And that's why I'm glad you read that email out, because it made me squirm a bit, if I'm honest. Would you consider popping in a late double-barrel edition? No, I mean, it just becomes too complicated, doesn't it?

And ultimately, it's up to your children. If they feel strongly about it, they are more than able to do something about it i'd be i'm genuinely interested to see what happens with the next generation of uh people getting married about what they do about surnames because still overwhelmingly most women change their surname is that true yes is that backed up by fact and statistics it absolutely is wow i just. I just would have thought it would fall in the way. I know you think I just make things up. No, I don't.

Honestly. Sometimes. I know, loads of people. Very few people now get married in a church. Very few people, statistically speaking. But I honestly am certain that most people... I was boring Eve earlier on with my fascinating diatribe on marriage certificates.

Do you remember the battle to get mothers' names on marriage certificates? Quite recently won that battle, really quite recently. And a woman ploughed away for years and years to get that change made. And when I think about it now, I seethe that had she not battled to get it changed, our names, should our children it changed, our names, should our children get married, our names would not have been on that certificate. Which is daft. Erased from history. Gone. And that is just

outrageous. It is. But there's always nuance, and this is from Philippa. I'd always wanted to get married. It's a great spin-off podcast. There's always nuance. Shall we call it that? Yes. I don't think we'd get a lot of... Because ultimately nuance is complicated.

But let's bring Philippa in. I'd always wanted to get married, she says, early in my life. It was actually probably inspired by visions of Disney princesses. But by the time I actually got round to it in my late 30s, the joy of picking a fabulous dress and choosing the right font for the invitations was jostling for space alongside concerns about how to adjust a frankly patriarchal institution into something more modern that matched my values. I gave a speech. I refused Old Testament readings. I debated not letting my dad give me away. And probably most importantly to me, I wanted to keep my own name, my own identity.

I offered to share my name with my husband. I think my name is excellent and thought he'd be pleased. But no, we experimented with portmanteau names. Unfortunately, all were deeply stupid. So in the end, I decided we'd have different surnames. So we got married and it was fabulous. Fabulous. We continued to live in the flat that I'd bought before I met him. I did well in my career, earning the lion's share of the money. We had a baby. We both decided that my husband would stay at home and look after the baby and I went back to work.

So far, so feminist, right? But, she says, here's the crunch. I really wanted to give our baby my last name. But my thought process here was, I think my husband's put up with enough feminism from me. I can't ask him to not let the baby have his last name. That would emasculate him. I've wrestled with this decision from that day to this did i feel sorry for a man for experiencing what almost every woman has experienced tenfold or was i being considerate and loving partner i would like to know what you and your listeners think well i suppose it is a good one but i suppose the point is that you know that not every woman has seethed at taking her husband's surname throughout time and as you say loads of your friends have chosen

to do that a couple of mine have and and it hasn't bothered them at all so it might be that it doesn't bother your husband it's i mean it's worth asking isn isn't it? Well, presumably Philippa has asked him. Do I feel sorry for him? I think for Philippa what you've done, for what it's worth, is that you've compromised here and it's probably a compromise worth making if you and your partner continue to be very happy and you're committed to each other. But the fact that she should, and I get this completely,

that she should feel sympathy for a man who possibly may feel emasculated. But as you say, we don't know that he does. But he hasn't been because the baby does have his surname. Yeah. Always tricky, isn't it? Yeah. I'm loving this, though.

And it really is different all over the world. This one comes from another Alex who says, in Italy, women can't change their name at marriage. They keep their birth surname throughout their lives for everything controlled by the state. Health, taxes, passport, identity card, etc. Not only that, you are only permitted to change your surname in really exceptional circumstances.

And I was quite surprised by that because I thought that Italy had quite a traditional view of the land that feminism forgot. Marriage and women's innate roles in the world. And this one comes from Linda, who says about changing your name by depot. It's very easy. In 1990, I changed my name by depot to go to South Africa where I'd been banned. There was a lawyer's office just opposite Paddington station, which advertised depots on its shop front. I think it cost £2.50. I applied for a passport in my new name supplying the evidence duly signed and stamped.

When I got back after making a successful film about apartheid and sport, I went to Paddington and changed my name back. I don't think the rules have changed. People can call themselves whatever they like. Isn't that brilliant? So how does that work? You just change your name, get a new passport, go to South Africa, make your film.

Well, that's important, yeah. Come back, change your name back. So in total it must have cost £5. £5. It was only £2.50 in 1990. That is brilliant. Well, that's something to do for the weekend. Pop along, change my name.

I mean, life would have been different if I'd had a... Well, you could say that about anything, couldn't you? I often think my life would have been different if I'd been 5'7". It was not to be. I think your life would have been more different if you had been five foot seven than it would have been if you hadn't had the surname garvey um i don't think garvey has um aligned you no it's not with prejudice or refers to something that's difficult. And you've enjoyed your Irish connections.

Yes, absolutely. There is an email about both our surnames, actually. Perhaps we'll get to it tomorrow, because we know it's here. It's almost like this is planned. This is from Katrina. It's not, actually. No, no, I mean it's not. Oh, it's not planned.

Oh, God. This edition in particular has never sounded less likely to have been planned. What's the point of surnames, writes Katrina. Once a community was too large to identify everyone by just one name. And this is because this takes you right back to how all this started. Because obviously there was a time when people didn't travel unless on foot. And they lived in small clumps. And you could just use one name.

And people could be distinguished by just that one name. And then I guess they'd use physical characteristics. So you'd be Fiona the... Well, we'd both be. Well, I'd be Fiona the short. And I would be Jane the short. But we'd also both be wise. That would be the other thing they'd add. Anyway, once the community was too large to identify everyone by just one name, the concept of an additional identifier seems to have evolved in most societies. This is interesting, isn't it? This often referred to the person's occupation, e.g. Smith, Cook or indeed, of course, Glover. Thank you. Some physical attribute, e.g. Swift, as in Taylor

and Jonathan, or Armstrong. Because you could be called on to move a particularly heavy table. If you were a big lad. Or place of birth, e.g. John of Gaunt. But that's a bit cumbersome. Fiona of Slough. Jane of Crosby. Would you have carried that through life? I rather like that, actually.

Many, many societies, both ancient and modern, identified people as the son or descendant of so-and-so, e.g. Johnson, Williamson, or indeed Garvey, which comes from the Gaelic Ogirbyth. I'm sorry, I've let down my ancestors there, which means descendant of... ..Gir... ..of him, anyway.

The custom of passing a fixed surname down from generation to generation and women marrying into that name came to the uk with the norman invasion and gradually spread from the nobility to the general population the welsh though uh stuck to their traditional patronymic convention of children being given their father's first name as a surname for an extra couple of hundred years and that's why so many welsh surnames are the same as male first names oh gosh hang on you know what it's very confusing so many welsh surnames are the same as male first names. So I guess that would be Evan, would Evans call it? Evan Evans. David Davis.

There you go, it works. Katrina, thank you. We could go on forever and ever about this. Do we have time? No, but keep your emails coming. Well, we've got to get to the guest eventually, haven't we? Because they are delightful and especially at the moment actually, it's really nice to just delve into something that

is interesting uh and yeah not kind of um oh god there's just some really incendiary chat flying around at the moment oh yeah and you know we're being asked to kind of work out whether or not elon musk is going to have a greater say in the running of this country than our elected representatives. And it's really depressing, isn't it? What was the documentary you advised me to watch about Elon Musk? Well, I can't remember the title of it because there are two, aren't there? But it was the one that was on the BBC. Definitely the one that was on the BBC iPlayer,

which I confess I'm so Olympic at the moment. I haven't got time for anything else in my life. But I will watch those documentaries because I gather they are very good they are superb and particularly the one that was available on the BBC I'm just going to look it up whilst you're doing this all right I just want to bring in Lorraine

who says I'm now eagerly lapping up your wise words on Times Radio she's found us again welcome back Lorraine I just had to get back to you about open curtains and lit windows for years I shared your listeners frustration that protagonists in tv and film thrillers never had the wit to close their curtains at night well in Scandinavian countries at least influenced by generations of Lutheranism shutting your curtains at night, meant you had something to hide and it's regarded as poor social behaviour. So perhaps it was the rise in the popularity of Scandinoir

that encouraged victims across all psychological thrillers to leave their curtains open at night. Fascinating detail. I didn't know that, that Lutheranism... By shutting your curtains, you were suggesting that all kinds of panky-hanky were going on, or something worse. Oh, dear.

It's simply called The Elon Musk Show, made in 2022. It details his career up until the kind of ding-dong before buying Twitter, or X as we now have to call it. But it's really superb, and I'd be interested if anybody does watch it in discussing what kind of a man makes it to the top, especially in Silicon Valley. He is South African by birth, isn't he?

Yeah. And he's got traits which I don't think are forgiven in women. I don't want to immediately go down the gender divide but I think if you and I displayed, if we just walked out of meetings that weren't going our way well, I mean we wouldn't get anything done, would we? But also we would be

described as stroppy and difficult and impossible to work with it wouldn't be taken as the sign of a genius who simply couldn't bear the slow movement of everybody else's minds. I know. I mean, he has been indulged to a degree that is, well... No, very much so.

We're all paying the price. But the documentary is really good because undoubtedly, you know, PayPal has changed and rightfully challenged... Was that him as well? ...the banks. He was in at the beginning of PayPal. Oh, God.

But also, you know, quite a lot of people within the space industry hugely rate him because he's put money and patience into an industry that governments had really stopped being able to fund. And obviously, you know, the EV phenomenon through Tesla is pointing us in the right direction. You know, we should move away from uh dreading the world for oil and gas so so there are you know there it's it's complicated but if you could watch it it'd be great to talk about it well let's should we have that as our homework

shall we yeah yeah perhaps when the olympics are over i was really looking forward to the this is why i love live sport the tussle which we had anticipated in the 1500 meters between our boy kerr and inge britsen of norway you should have i mean i should have realized that neither of them were going to win because that's the way live sport plays out uh we just didn't see it do we no but but when uh it's hockin who won wasn't it the american yeah um when he charged through at the end we were watching it and we honestly thought god have, have they just lapped some people? Who were you? Who were on the track?

Because the whole focus had just been on those two men belting it out between each other. I mean, it was funny, wasn't it? Well, that's why you can't beat the drama of live sport. Yeah. You just can't. It's been a phenomenal Olympics. Kate Williams likes to take history apart

and find the juicy bits in it. And she certainly does that in her latest podcast, Queens, Kings and Dastardly Things. In it, Kate and Robert Hardman look back at the monarchy through time, not just ours, across the globe. And the one thing the dynasties of time have in common is drama. If you thought Hollyoaks had unbelievable plots, well, meet the Tudors in episode one. Here are Robert and Kate discussing the death of Lord Darnley.

If we look at the facts, Robert, if one of our other halves was found strangled and their holiday home was blown up when we happened not to be there, you could imagine that suspicion might fall on us for having bumped them up, especially if there were a few little things along the way that might be annoying, like syphilis, like stabbing your secretary, like falling out with you when you wouldn't let him be king. So really, Darnley hasn't made friends with anyone. And he certainly has offended and annoyed his wife. Oh, it's just fantastic. Kate, welcome to the programme. Thank you so much.

How are you? I'm thrilled to be on. It's great to hear from you. I was just enjoying your conversation about dogs and cats, because do you know, when Mary Queen of Scots was finally executed, she wasn't allowed to take anyone with her. It was a very brutal, cruel execution. But they found after she was executed that her dog was under her skirts. The dog had gone up onto the block with her and i when i i talk about this i say you know every dog owner i know say that their dog would go with them to the block cat owners i'm not so sure i just don't think my cat would go up there with a block with me i think they'd be off being fed by henry the eighth or

someone well exactly and i think the cat would go and find, in my experience, the nearest courtier and wouldn't care whether or not that was a loyal person. They'd just go, hello, I'm with you now. Tell us a little bit more about Lord Darnley. So the first podcast that we've got dropped today is about the death of Lord Darnley, whether or not, who killed Lord Darnley. So Lord Darnley was found smothered just outside of his holiday home on the outskirts of Edinburgh. That was totally blown up. The whole of Edinburgh was rocked by an explosion.

People saw these bad people, bad men, they said, running around. So everyone knew that it hadn't been accidental. It wasn't just a fault of Tudor wiring that had gone wrong and blown them all up and sent him flying into the garden. And it's really very Cluedo because beside Lord Darnley, there was a chair, a rope and two dressing gowns and a dagger. So what that was, he was there with his servants, smothered with those items. And then it begins this huge scandal of who killed Lord Darnley.

And there was suspicion fell on Mary, Queen of Scots. I think she was totally innocent. But really, she was being framed because bad people around her wanted, wanted, you know, the suspicion to fall on her. But it was a huge mystery. The whole of Europe was obsessed with the idea of who killed the Queen's husband. I mean, you know, it would be, as I was saying, pretty bad if a royal husband was found blown up in his holiday home. I mean, you know, it would be, as I was saying, pretty bad if a royal husband was found blown up in his holiday home. I mean, we would be quite shocked now. And so at the time, it seemed as if it was the most shocking thing. And I think it's one of the biggest murder mysteries in history.

And was he bumped off because he was in the way of somebody else's power? It's all, you put the nail on the head. You're always in the way of someone else's power. So what we see with Lord Darnley was that he was the husband of Mary, Queen of Scots, not one that was very popular with anyone. Elizabeth I didn't want to marry him. And certainly none of the Scottish lords who all wished to control Mary, Queen of Scots, they didn't want him around because they thought that he would try and control her and get power. And initially they'd turned him against her.

And he had joined him in busily stabbing her servant, Rizzio. And then after that, after that, he went back to her and that was really sealed his downfall. The rest of the lords were angry. And it seems pretty clear to me that the rest of the lords created this dastardly plot to get rid of Lord Darnley and frame the queen for it and seize power for themselves.

Because Mary Queen of Scots, she was always insecure. She was always being threatened with kidnap. But as soon as she had a child, as soon as she had a son, this was a great moment of triumph. But it was also the beginning of the end for her. Because as soon as she has a son, you can depose her for that baby. So she had the baby. And, you know, less than a year later, her husband was dead and she was being framed for his murder. So they could put the baby on the throne and be regent for the baby. So you can see why Elizabeth I thought I'm not doing this baby thing. Well, this is one of the fascinating things that I learned listening to the podcast. I had always made the assumption

that for a female monarch to have a child would secure her position. I mean, that's what we come to believe now, isn't it? That the provision of an heir makes you safe in a family. But it was completely the other way round, wasn't it? Why did having a child make you more vulnerable? If you're a consort, it totally secures your position. If you can have that male heir, as poor old Henry VIII's wife could not, you are secure. If you're a consort, if you're a male, if you're that male heir, as poor old Henry VIII's wives could not, you are secure.

If you're a consort, if you're a male, if you're a male monarch, the male heir, and even a good collection of female heirs will do if they're desperate. That's secure. But if you're a female queen, you are totally, you are totally, as soon as you have that male child, he is much, totally your superior. Even though he can't sit up and he hasn't got any teeth, he's still superior to you and you are very likely to be deposed for that child, which immediately Mary Queen of Scots had that baby boy. That was both a moment of great triumph for her. She was thrilled, she was excited

and she knew she'd secured the dynasty. But at the same time, it was the beginning of the end it was very swift before she was off the throne deposed and then escaped into what became her long exile in England and then finally execution so yes so you're in an impossible bind as a female monarch because if you don't have an heir you're criticized Elizabeth I was and you're seen as the end of the monarchy. If you do have an heir, then that can be the end of you. And of course, it was Mary, Queen of Scots' son who took over after Elizabeth I.

He was, he became Elizabeth's heir. So Mary, Queen of Scots, who always longed to be Elizabeth's best friend. She always did. Can you explain how they were related? Because I've never really understood this. You try in the podcast. They call each other sister and cousin. Right.

So essentially, Elizabeth I is Henry VIII's daughter with Anne Boleyn. And Henry VIII has a sister. And that sister, Margaret, she is Mary, Queen of Scots' grandmother. So Henry VIII's sister, Margaret, marries into the Scottish royal family. And she's Mary, Queen of Scots' grandmother. So really, in terms of blood relations, after Henry VIII, all his children, Edward's gone, Mary's gone, then there's Elizabeth I, the nearest blood relation is from the older sister Margaret.

There's the younger sister Mary, but the older sister Margaret Margaret. There's the younger sister, Mary, but the older sister, Margaret, is her line, and that's Mary, Queen of Scots. So they call each other cousins. We wouldn't exactly call that a cousin relationship now, but they called each other cousins and sisters. And certainly, Mary, Queen of Scots, was totally obsessed with being best friends with Elizabeth.

All she wanted to do was be best friends with Elizabeth, and Elizabeth kept saying, maybe we'll meet, or maybe not. God, it's always a power battle, isn't it? Yes, it's a power battle and a power struggle. And what's the most shocking is it exploded into this huge murder that Lord Darnley was killed and it rocked all Edinburgh with this gigantic explosion.

The man who was with him, was he rather more than a friend? Oh, Lord Darnley's valet was, because he was smothered as well. I mean, you know, I mean, it's possible, but the thing is that it was very common for you to sleep with your servants in your beds and in your rooms anyway. I mean, seriously, for warmth. For warmth, for companionship.

That's generally what people did do for warmth, for companionship. Presumably sometimes for safety as well. It was February in Scotland. It was chilly. Say no more. But also, weren't Darnley and Mary actually, you know, if not a love match,

they were genuinely attracted to each other. It was a Love Island kind of vibe. It was a Love Island. She thought he was fabulous. He was handsome. He was tall. She thought he was the perfect husband. And also, he had quite a claim on the

English throne as well so he strengthened the claim of her child uh to to all all the royal throne so that that's what made him a threat that what made him powerful that was made him a threat of course that's what makes Mary a threat as well she's a threat she's powerful because she has she's so close to the English throne she's the next one in line after Elizabeth, but that makes her powerful, but that also makes her dangerous, and England is terrified of her because they fear this queen coming onto the throne who, number one, will start to say,

yes, you weren't nice to me, you weren't nice to me. And also that they fear that short-term England Catholic, that's not in her plan, it was never her plan for Scotland, but that's the propaganda that's raised against her. So she is an exemplar of how impossible it is to be queen and how fortunate Elizabeth I was in in in the fact that she wasn't surrounded by these levels of male violence that tried to seize it from her and that she never married yeah and you do reference the terrible male violence in those times we're enjoying having this conversation about the high drama

of monarchs throughout history. But let's be honest, there is high drama in the current monarchy. And I wonder what you think the kind of dynamic is between our desire to always see that drama played out within a royal household, and the fact that the royal household seems to want to be part of that drama too. I mean, are these people, do they just never have enough to do on a daily basis to stop the drama? Is it the type of person who marries into a royal family? What is it that keeps these monarchs and these dynasties spinning at such high dramatic velocity? Yes it's a fascinating question because there's this contrast isn't there that we see that monarchy wants their palaces and castles to look so grand to look so majestic and there's the photo shoots it all looks

so perfect and yet behind the closed doors there's all this scandal and you know all this chaos and of course we've seen we've seen this year in such a fascinating investigation into the royal image with the royal image that was put out of Kate and her children that creates this huge drama and this huge scandal. And Kate has to come out and say,

oh, well, I did it, even though I don't think any of us thought that, I don't think she did Photoshop her own picture. And it's always, you know, there's this huge drama and fascination with the lives. And I think that's it. I think this is what the royal family, I don't think they always quite understand that they,

you know, create these huge dramas, these huge scenarios, these gigantic weddings, and then people say, well, what else is going on? They want to know. They can't have it both ways, can you? I mean, I'm sure I'm not the only person who's noticed their absence. I mean, these are difficult times for the country. I know it's tricky, and for all we know,

the king may be bursting to go on television and do an address to the nation to say, listen, don't do this, not in my name. Well, he hasn't, possibly because he's been advised against it. I don't even know whether he wants to do it. But the fact that nobody's saying anything, and the only sighting of the royal family we've had is the Princess Royal at the Olympics. Does that seem to you to be perhaps inadequate? It is, I mean, we are in crisis times. I mean, we haven't seen riots since... I mean, there were riots in 2011.

There were quite severe riots and looting in 2011. And there's been... This is this outbreak of violence, which is getting worse and worse and worse. It's not abating, it's getting worse. And we are seeing this, you know, people are terrified. I mean, we are surrounded... You know, there's cities tonight, I think,

that are going to be gripped by this racist violence, by this anti-Islamic violence. I mean, we are surrounded, you know, the cities tonight, I think that are going to be gripped by this racist violence, by this anti-Islamic violence. I mean, it's just terrible. And I think this is the moment where the monarchy does need to come out and say something. And they don't have to say something. They don't have to come out and make a statement because maybe the king is having treatment.

Maybe he's not well at the moment. He could make a written statement and say, you know, we need to to we're in multicultural country we need to live in peace. And as head of the commonwealth you know you do I think have a right to say something about how historically that has contributed to our society but do you think that they're fearful for other reasons that perhaps to some tribes in this country the royal family is something that they want to grab hold of for their own purpose i mean i think everyone does but i think i do think that the king that something should be said on behalf of the royal family uh

you know expressing sympathy with with those who've lost their livelihoods you know those who are living in fear those i mean you, we don't need to get to the, do we need to get to the point where there are actual sort of, you know, we've got people dying? Because I think that people do look to the monarchy and they do want to know what the monarchy thinks. And so I think that certainly this is the moment for the king to say something.

And I presume there is going to be something. But I think for many people, they are... Now would be the time. Now would be the time. And obviously, we haven't seen William at the Olympics. You know, we might have expected, perhaps if Kate had been well, we probably would have expected to see William and Kate at the Olympics. We haven't.

But certainly, I mean, as a historian, Britain has been constantly invaded at the beginnings in early history. Britain was constantly invaded. Many people have come here. I mean, we are all the children of immigrants in this country, whether it was Norman invaders or whether it was various Visigoths

and people coming in, you know, we're all the children of immigrants. And, you know, many of my family came over to Liverpool from Ireland to join the Potato family. And I think many people in Liverpool will be from the same grouping. And I think many people in Liverpool will be from the same grouping. And I think that we have to recognise that we're all the children of immigrants

and we all go, this is what this country is. And I think this would be a moment for the King to talk about the multiculturalism, the Commonwealth, people coming together. And I think that, I mean, if I was advising him, I would suggest making that statement sooner or later. The brilliant Kate Williams, plenty of food for thought there. And by the way, Zandra Rhodes, I thought the interview with Zandra yesterday

was really, really interesting because she, obviously, fashion designer, I sort of thought I knew what she'd sound like and she didn't sound like I was expecting. What did you think she'd sound like? Well, I suppose I thought she'd be haughty and a bit posh and she's absolutely, gloriously still wedded to her roots and I thought there was such an authenticity about her.

And I don't, you know, I don't get fashion. I'm always a bit puzzled by some of the people who work in it but she is a stand alone brilliantly genius level does her own thing woman and you do get a lot of people in fashion who design really bold conceptual

bits of stuff and just only ever wear black or navy blue and she just is a she's a beacon she... Yeah, she rocks it. She's a beacon. Yeah. She rocks it, she lives it.

Good luck to her. Yes, I thought she was amazing as well and just very sparkling and sprightly. And also, there's so much to be learned, isn't there, from lives where you haven't deviated from what you wanted to do and of course that's not possible for everybody and of course you know fine usually for most people financial pressures mean that you have to slightly kind of squeeze in whatever it is that has been your

ambition but actually um through reading her book she's had huge periods of destitution and not making it and trouble with the companies and all of that kind of stuff. But she absolutely, I think, is one of those people who couldn't have done anything else. She just could not have lived a different life, looked a different way, and all hail to her for sticking to it. That's what we like. We like people who...

Well, it's just really lovely. It's very energising to meet people like that. It slightly restores your faith. Well, I think I'm a little bit of a long way off having my faith restored, I've got to be honest. Did you read the story about the... Is it Ireland that's only got one bloke training for the priesthood at the moment?

Oh, dear. But they won't take ladies. Otherwise, I'd be there. Well, I tell you what, market forces if you get a lot of bad reviews on TripAdvisor then your restaurant shuts down so Jane and Fi at times.radio

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