Off Air... with Jane and Fi - There's no Brexit in space

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

Jane and Fi are wondering how they'd cope with getting the ick on the International Space Station. And whether they can get away with saying the word 'ick'? Is 'peng' a step too far?They're also joined by author and Sunday Times columnist Hadley Freeman to talk about her memoir 'Good Girls: A Story And Study Of Anorexia'. If you've been affected by any of the issues in our chat with Hadley then please get in touch on [e-mail] and we will point you in the direction of the resources you need.You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm pondering whether I should share this, but it is just a plain fact that my youngest child was born nine months after a certain football team got promoted. Welcome to Off Air. I have got one more. Can we just say one more thing about spitting? Yes. From Jay, who just says, I don't care which sex produces more saliva. And I think we'll give Jay maybe not quite the final word, but almost.

Use a handkerchief. There's no excuse. Keep a hanky in your shorts, tucked in your knicker leg, wherever. Or if swimming, get out and deal with it hygienically. Or swallow. Keep your germs to yourself. Spitting should have become a taboo in the modern age,

like defecating in the street. We do no one any favours looking for justification for bad behaviour. P.S. My mum used to boil handkerchiefs in Purcell, separate from the dishcloths. Thank you, Jay. Excellent. It's definitely Purcell that everybody is boiling their dishcloths in,

and I think that is the contributing factor to the really weird smell. Smell, yeah. Although we had another email referencing Ajax. Do you remember that? Oh, Ajax. Now that was brutal. Powerful stuff. Very brutal stuff.

From memory. Came in a cylindrical... Is that the right word? Yes, it did. Yeah, it looked like a big salt cellar, didn't it? But don't confuse the two. Don't confuse the two kids, no. Don't do that.

Now why did we call Ajax, why is it okay to call Ajax Ajax, but you can't call the stadium Ajax? You have to say that our fantastic young lads are playing at the Ajax stadium, don't you? Yes. You can't say Ajax. But nobody reached under

their kitchen cupboard and said, oh, we've run out of Ajax. Similarly, I had no idea that Nice Biscuits were from France. Were from Nice. Just what? We've gone all continental. I tell you what, we're really showing off're from Nice just what? we've gone all continental haven't we? I tell you what

we're really showing off our very very very cosmic bulletin side but let's get back down to Earth because that's where we belong really isn't it? well we interviewed an astronaut didn't we yesterday?

oh we did Rosemary Coogan who has just graduated from the European Space Agency we're still part of that. Yeah, I was wondering about that, but clearly they haven't biffed us out of that, at least. Well, we didn't vote to leave it, did we?

I don't know. There's no Brexit in space. Well, I think there are lots of things in space, though, aren't there? But Rosemary was an incredibly sorted young woman, wasn't she? As you would have to be. I mean, there'd be no room at the International Space Station for two flailing, rambling, middle-aged birds like ourselves. It just, what would we do in the International Space Station?

I'd keep forgetting things. I'd need to make a list, then I wouldn't be able to find the list. Well, I'd find the lack of gravity. Challenging. That is the issue, isn't it that i would find that more than challenging i wouldn't want to be locked in a international space station with lots of other people who i didn't know expected to be there for months well i think they oh i see yes because you go there that would be rosemary's fate wouldn't it and i mean that in a good way, to go to the ISS. And there will be people there who've established a way of living together. Yeah, and then she will arrive with presumably a couple of others and start afresh.

Yeah, but you're meeting people from all over the world, aren't you? Yeah. In a quite strange circumstance. And if somebody's got a bit of an ick, then you're done for, aren't you? I don't know whether I like ick, but there is an ick in one of our emails today how do you feel about the term? ick, I'm quite new to it so I'm still trying it out

I got that sense could you stop now please, you've tried it and I don't like it quite often don't you, especially with the children's things, that you do have to say them out loud until you realise. I think, for instance,

I only ever, ever used the word paying once because it just sounded so stupid coming out of my mouth. Yes, it would sound absurd coming from either of us. It's not just you. Don't worry about it. Have you ever called anybody blad?

No. Have you? No, because I've... Yeah, it's just silly, isn't it? It's not going to catch on. Can we just say hello to Maud, because she is worried about expensive tickets at the Playhouse.

Yes, I'm not going to say that. No, I get it. And couldn't find 25 quid seats uh but do you have any ins on to that did you get a very late ticket or an early ticket or something or return or something maude is referring to standing at the sky's edge she is which is that wonderful musical that i have saw last week at the gillian lynn theater in london and i've got to be honest i i have um a friend who's absolutely mad about theatre and she booked these tickets a long, long time ago.

So I didn't pay for them, but they were really good seats. And I think I will text her and find out, but I'll be honest with you, I think it was over 60 quid. Okay. So, I mean, I'm not in any way suggesting that that is cheap. It isn't. It's a big outlay, that. I'm going, in all honesty again, to the theatre in East West Kensington tonight,

the Hammersmith Lyric, Britain's leading theatre, Hammersmith Lyric, apart from and including the Crucible, of course, in Sheffield, where we'll be appearing in a few weeks. And where? You're going to have to man an inbox that is now absolutely full of regional theatres in High Dudgeon. Shall we create a separate folder for that?

I've got a lot of time for the Hammersmith lyric. And again, I'll be honest with you, I do get free tickets to the lyric. OK. But tonight is the first night of a touring production of Minority Report. Now, I gather this is very, very good. It's been on already in the East Midlands.

It's gone down a storm there, and I'm really looking forward to it. It's the Philip K. Dick short story that's been adapted by the actor David Haig. Yeah, well, that sounds good. Wasn't it also a filmer? A film starring Thomas O'Cruise. Do you remember that film he made where he pretended to be Irish? Oh, my good god

I don't what was it called Far Away Tree or something like that he was awful in it I mean he's actually a very good actor I think but he wasn't very good in this the accent did I'm afraid to say let him down while we're talking about

trips out I went to see young Matt Chorley our colleague. By the way, this gives the impression to people, and I'm glad it does, that we are very much socially active. I got home last night and I did say to the late in life love interest, I just can't go out during the week. No. I really probably can't do it. I'm just knackered. You're a beaten woman. It was ten past ten.

I can't go out during the week. I can't go out in a week. I can't go out in a week. But if you get a chance to see Matt's show, I think he's got one left in Lyme Regis, but I'm sure he will come back because he's definitely sold out quite a lot of his stuff on tour. And if you like your politics, it's just a feast. I haven't ever seen a show like that,

which just completely leans into the nerdery of the political world and the manifestos and the funny pledges that people have made and all that kind of stuff. And also, he just does a really good job of berating the audience. And some people can just do that, can't they? And the audience

lap it up. They just want to be spanked more and more and more. Yeah, that does have its fans. Jonathan Pye does that too. Does he? Yeah, just absolutely attacks his own audience. You can almost see people in the audience puffing themselves up so they get noticed as opposed to shrinking back in their seats,

which I think is a tendency sometimes in immersive theatre. Perhaps that's something else we can explore over the coming weeks. Yes, I'm sorry, I've missed Matt live. I think you'll be able to, I'm sure he'll be doing more. What a treat for Lime Regis, a place that's seen very little action since Jane Austen went down there

and had an incident on the Cobb. I'm just going to have to check with Matt that it is Lime Regis, otherwise again, we've got an email inbox full and a file marked he's not coming to Lyme Regis oh it's so well thought through this isn't it the whole thing

just to check in it was Sir Thomas Beecham the Morris dancer and incest quote this one comes from Deb who says on the Masonic thread that still seems to be running I was always told that the Masons were very secretive. I was about 12 when my grandfather died

and I was allowed to look in the tin case. Now that's in uppercase letters, so that's probably what we should be calling the briefcases. At his regalia, gold-trimmed sash, apron and cuffs, thinking that must be the secret and all they wore at the lodge

meetings. Hello. Well that would be fruity and all they wore at the lodge meetings. Hello. Well, that would be fruity lodge nights, wouldn't it? That's back almost on the naturist theme, which I'm still disturbed by. But I found the email that mentions Ix. This listener says, and this is, by the way, I didn't know people did this. Your conversation about briefcases brought back memories.

When I was a teenager, my mum got herself a briefcase with two three-dial combination locks because she said it was the only way she could keep some things for herself. She hadn't realised my patience, though. Going from 0-0-0 up to 9-9- 9 on both locks wouldn't take too long. Is that mathematically true, by the way? Say that again. She hadn't realised my patience.

Going from 0, 0, 0 up to 9, 9, 9 on both locks wouldn't take too long. So this is someone trying to open their mother's secret briefcase. Oh, it would take forever, wouldn't it? Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm no statistician, but I would have thought so too. But anyway it would take forever, wouldn't it? I don't know. I mean, I'm no statistician, but I would have thought so too. But anyway, this is probability, isn't it? Yeah. So... Is it your special field?

No. You've been keeping it hidden for a long time. Space travel is my special field. We've already determined that. Anyway, according to our emailer, she says, I got it open in no time. And realised with teenage disgust that the code was the date when my baby brother, her favourite child, had been conceived.

Oh, whoa. 1-4-0-3-9-5. Now, everyone with that birth date is going to be cringing. But that's not the birth date, that's a conception date. Sorry, yes, you're absolutely right. Have you committed to memory your conception dates? I don't know, I haven't, no. Well, possibly not, although obviously you can sort of semi-work it out, can't you?

Because when you go for your, you know, when they say your period, so your pregnancy is dated from the start of the day of your last period. That's right, isn't it? Sweet cheeks, you were 13 weeks on woman's hour or whatever it was. Years. Yeah, so when people say, when you go and you say you're six weeks pregnant, it has been six weeks since the start of your last period. Right.

Hang on. Yes. Oh my God. How did I get pregnant? since the start of your last period. Right. Hang on. Yes. Oh, my God. How did I get pregnant? Make another file, Kate. Incoming. Literally. Right.

Okay, so we don't really know. No, it is. So, your pregnancy doesn't start on the day you discover you're pregnant. You're right. Of course you're right. Yeah. So, your pregnancy doesn't start on the day you discover you're pregnant. You're right. Of course you're right. Yeah. So, right.

How, though, does that explain that our correspondent was able to crack the code on her mother's... This is one for the many mathematicians listening. On her mother's briefcase. I tell you what... Two, three dial combination locks. on her mother's briefcase. I tell you what... Two, three dial combination locks. What is so worrying about that is if she knew the conception date of the favoured child

because that was openly celebrated in their yearly calendar. I mean, that would be ridiculous. If I said, OK, kids, special treat. We'll have a lovely Deliveroo night. We're celebrating your conception. You wouldn't see the back of them. They'd just be out the door so fast. I'm pondering whether I should share this,

but it is just a plain fact. Oh, go on, go on. My youngest child was born nine months after a certain football team got promoted. Anyway, it's not something she needs to think about. And they've been relegated since. I was going to say, at least it's in celebration and it's not in commiseration of relegation.

That would be worse. I think for anyone listening who's called relegation, this is a grim moment, isn't it? It is. But there are many people called promotion yeah gonna have a cream cake on us yeah oh dear right how do we get on i have apps i have no idea it's one of the many reasons i dread coming to work oh lordy lordy um uh right there's very, there's a sad one about weddings.

And actually lots and lots of people's experience is really in a minor key about family weddings. This one comes from Lizzie, who says, Hello, Jane and Fee. We weren't invited to our son's wedding in Las Vegas, and I often wondered why. Very sadly, we lost our son aged 45, and I'm so sorry to hear that, Lizzie. And since then, our daughter-in-law has told wondered why. Very sadly, we lost our son aged 45, and I'm so sorry to hear that, Lizzie.

And since then, our daughter-in-law has told us why. Her parents had a very acrimonious divorce some years earlier and apparently couldn't be trusted to be in the same room without a lot of trouble. So neither sets of parents were invited in order to keep the peace. I'm very sad about this. I'd love to hear your view. Well, I mean, I can't speak for

Jane and Lizzie, but I'm just incredibly sad for you because obviously you've been excluded from something through doing no wrong at all. Yeah, that's horrible. And then not to have in your memory bank, you know, when your son has died as well is an absolute double whammy, isn't it? So I'm so sorry to hear that. And I suppose it's worth knowing stories likemy, isn't it? So I'm so sorry to hear that. And I suppose it's worth knowing stories like that, isn't it? Just because if you're the bride and groom or a potential bride and groom who are listening to this thinking, oh, I wonder whether I shouldn't invite parents

because the other lot might go off and stuff. Maybe just be bold and invite the nice parents who aren't going to go off. Maybe don't punish them for somebody else's experience. But it's difficult to do. So, you know, I'm not saying that that's what you should do, but I'd pop it in the mix and give it a little bit of a think. I know there are all sorts of reasons why couples get divorced,

but I do think if you can just play nicely at family occasions afterwards, is that such a big ask? Do you really have to keep it all going for decades? I know it depends on what's caused the divorce, I absolutely get it, but if you've had what you might call a bog standard separation and divorce, surely if there are children involved for one day, for just a couple of hours, you could be all right with each other, couldn't you?

I think you just have to try and find a gear that you can put yourself into, which just motors through the day. Because on that occasion, it isn't about you. Or your boring divorce. It's about the other people. And it's one of those days where you don't really know until you get there what you need from your parents. And sometimes you need quite a need from your parents and sometimes

you need quite a lot from your parents on that day and you're thinking you know beforehand i don't but when you get there you do so we'll definitely take some more about weddings we have got an email special coming up haven't we well and we really need one because we're actually um you might be surprised here we we're quite nice people and we actually really feel for those people who have emailed. Some of you absolutely witty and erudite and telling us all sorts of incredible things about your lives and your experiences. And we just cannot read them all out. So trust me, we do want to.

We really do. And so that's why we are planning another email special in very, very short time. And we might put some more email specials in as well. Here's a millennial on the subject of elopement. I was so sad to listen to the young family who've kept their marriage a secret due to the affordability of a wedding. But I'm afraid the opinions of parents on this issue matter not. Many of my millennial friends will never own homes and will never marry due to the cost and we're building our lives and families in a very scary and uncertain time. Millennial

children of boomers eloping may be just one of those things, like how we spend all our house deposit money on avocados, that boomers will just have to get over. Let us have micro weddings, let us have a tiny village hall tea afterwards, and maybe you'll get to be a part of it. It feels like boomers are the only ones with any money to actually spend on these things. For what it's worth, I have two under five, and when it comes time for me to shuffle off,

I hope that the families my children have built, however they may look, are full of love, respect, kindness and laughter. I give not two hoots how they go about it, as long as they feel loved and respected. It's a point of view. And, you know, we do acknowledge I am a boomer, you're not. I'm just a boomer by about six months. Very, very rude. Well, no, I'm being kind to you and hard on myself because I don't think anyone likes a boomer and i i was only six months old when i stopped being a boomer so don't hold too much against so what's the cutoff point for boomers 1964 okay yeah so i think the point about the money

is so valid though and shouldn't be overlooked and these days you can probably if you've if you've got enough money for a decent wedding then that is money that your child also really needs for accommodation and i think uh i think a lot of weddings must go by the by yeah these days because you just need to save up for a deposit for a house you know the idea that you're going to spend all of that on just one day to create the happy memories or whatever it is i can fully understand why now you go actually i just really need the money instead do you have a view on this neil says now that hugh edwards has finally left the bbc who do you think should anchor election night

obviously it's time for a woman but do you think the frontrunners include any women? That's from Mr Lee, who's on Solent. Or it could be from Mr... Leon Solent. That's also true. Yeah. Well, who do you think the frontrunners are? So we're only talking about the BBC here, aren't we? The Channel 4

has got a line-up it's already announced. I saw that under Breaking News the other night. It's not really, is it? It's actually a scheduling announcement. That's a showbiz nibbler. It's not Breaking News. I felt a little bit cheated when I clicked on that.

I agree with you. It's just a good booking. So most people will be listening to Times Radio's coverage. I think they will because the aforementioned Matt Chorley, isn't it? So I'll be going to bed with Matt that night, most definitely. But in all fairness, I will watch a bit of telly. And ultimately, it doesn't matter one jot. Do you know what I was quite interested in in Andrew Billen's piece in the Times today?

Welcome back to our regular visitor on Message Mandy. And Andrew Billen wrote... Is the app free to download, Mandy? Yes, it is. Is it easy to download, Mandy? The Times Radio app is free, easy to download, and free of charge. Mandy, thank you.

That's OK. This isn't a scripted, this bit. So, Andrew Billen, in his piece, wrote that when David Dimbleby was replaced, and of course he got that job as election anchor on the hereditary principle, because his dad had also done it. And he also got that job when he was 12.

He was also very good. Yeah. That's the other thing, in absolute fact. But anyway, that job was eventually given to Hugh Edwards, and when that happened according to andrew billen david dimpleby did not contact hugh edwards to pass on any kind of message of congratulation oh okay now we don't know that's 100 true do we although i think it's unlikely that andrew would have included it if he had believed that it was anything other than true

uh and that's a bit sad i think yeah um anyway uh i mean the way that they went on about it you would have thought there'd be a great big ceremony they did bunting you know official music commissioned for the handover for god's sake and indeed a coronation of sorts yeah to be held at the abbey but i think you're right with your point um that actually we just need a little bit more fact and data on whether or not people are genuinely choosing to watch the news because it's presented one night by so-and-so and another night by so-and-so.

And, you know, for me personally, I just don't mind who presents the news. I think it's nicer news when Fiona Bruce does it, but I don't not tune into the news. I think it's nicer news when Fiona Bruce does it, but I don't do not tune into the news. Nicer news. Well, it's not Fiona Bruce. And you know,

my desire to watch the news is based on what's in the news, Jane. So when it's a really hefty news day, then I will want to watch the 10 o'clock news and sometimes when it's not, I'll just go and read the news instead. We're so spoilt for choice now, where we get the headlines. By reading the news, you don't just get to write some scripts and then just read it out loud.

Does the late life love interest have to listen to this? Very much so. It's a key part of our relationship. That's one way to keep him interested. Right, but in general, I have to say, Mr Leon Solent, neither of us seem to have formed a view here. I actually think Laura Koonsberg is,

actually, we know her to be a very, she's a very nice person, isn't she? She's a really nice person, Jane. And I hope that she gets, you know, a big, big, big desk of presentation because she really knows her stuff. And she's good to people. She's one of those people who,

you know, she's just pleasant. And I know that sounds like, it's not in any way damning with faint praise, but some people who've got to that level are not very nice. And she is not one of those people. No. So she deserves to be there.

She does deserve to be there. Clive Myer, I'm a big fan of Clive. I like Rita Chakrabarty. I've got other people on my fridge. Who else do I like from news? Ben Brown, I like him from news. Jane Hill, I like her from news. I like news.

Very much like all of the news, don't you? All of the news people. But I agree with you. It's better when Fiona tells us about it. It's just nicer. Yeah, no, I like Fiona Bruce's news. This is why it's so ridiculous. It's not their news, is it? No.

It's not. Okay. Right. I'll tell you what, Mr. Leon Solent, though. If you do want to start a petition for Jane and I to anchor election night back at the BBC, then that would be great. Let us know how that goes. I've never been to Leon Solent, have you?

No, I don't think I have. Well, maybe I have. I mean, the Solent, I've been to a lot of places around the Solent. It's the show Judith Chalmers never dared to make. Cheers! Cheers! It's the show Judith Chalmers never dared to make. Cheers.

Our guest today is Hadley Freeman. And we've had some emails already. This listener says, I am pleased that you're going to be talking to Hadley. I've just finished listening to her audio book, Good Girls. I wanted to listen to it as my good friend's daughter is currently ill with anorexia and I wanted to gain some sort of understanding of what they're all going through. I thought it was an excellent book. I can also hard recommend a previous book of hers called House of Glass,

which is one of my favourite books of the year a couple of years ago and which my then 16-year-old daughter said I should read. I agree, House of Glass is also a terrific book. This is from another listener who says I am the mother of a daughter who's making really good progress in her recovery from anorexia and I was pleased to hear that you're talking to Hadley Freeman this week. We rarely talk about the fact that people can and do recover but I firmly believe it is possible with the right help at the right time. The trouble is that far too many people don't get the help they need and mums like me end up running a full inpatient facility in our own homes, sometimes for years. One of my greatest fears was that my relationship with my daughter would be permanently damaged by our endless daily conflicts. But I am so happy to report that after

three years of hard work and steady weight gain, both her kindness and her trademark sense of humour have finally returned. And let's hear from Hadley Freeman. Her book is called Good Girls, A Study and a Story of Anorexia. Many of you will know Hadley as a fantastically erudite and well-informed and just brilliantly witty as well, columnist at the Sunday Times. House of Glass is her previous book about her own family, which obviously a lot of people have already enjoyed. But this is a very raw account of her own journey through anorexia when she was in her teens. I asked Hadley who the book was for. Well, I wrote it because I wanted to help parents, really, is who I was thinking of, because I have the unique perspective, I think, of having been quite severe, but having

fully recovered, and now having children of my own. So I feel like I've got multi perspectives going on. So I wanted to help parents. I wanted also to let girls and women with anorexia out there know that they are not alone and there is truly help. It's not just a cliche, the doctor says. And also to help those who just don't understand the illness, because I feel there's so many misconceptions about it. So I wanted to clarify some of those. It is important to say, I think, that children or the desire for children, neither of those things can be a cure, or can they? No, definitely not. I think for me, it was a bunch of things happening at the same time. And the fact that I had children so late is also significant, because I just needed those decades really to

fully recover. And it happened that by the time I had my children, the first two at 38, cover. And it happened that by the time I had my children, the first two at 38, I was ready to get better. You do describe in the book both when you think it started, if I can put it that way, and also the moment when you thought that you wouldn't let it dominate your life. And I'll talk about them both if that's all right with you. But can we start with the girl in PE and her thighs? Yes. So I had just turned 14. It was May 1992. And I was in PE and we were all in our little PE skirts. And there was a girl in my class next to me who was just one of those naturally very tiny girls. And I said to her without really thinking, is it hard to buy clothes when you're so small? And she said, yes, I wish I was normal like you. And that just completely, it was like a bomb went

off in my brain. And I stopped eating. And by September, I was in hospital for the first of nine times. Was it really, I hesitate to use the word simple, but was it really like that? It was really like that, but it was not that simple. So there's a definite difference between a trigger and a cause. That was the trigger, but the causes were obviously multifaceted and going back years and years. It was not that which made me anorexic, it's that's what pushed me over the edge, but it could have been anything that pushed me over the edge. that's what pushed me over the edge, but it could have been anything that pushed me over the edge. And the moment many years later, when you were in hospital and you were witnessing a woman, I think in her early thirties, having, frankly, what I think you describe in the book as a tantrum

about the amount of butter that was on her toast. What was that like? Yes. So again, this was something completely quotidian. You know, we all ate our meals and our three snacks a day together. So we were at this table six times a day together. I'd been in hospital with this particular woman, who I call in the book Caroline, multiple times. And at every meal or snack, somebody would have a tantrum about they had the biggest piece of pie or they had more mashed potatoes than other people or they had more butter. And I did it often myself. And it never had any impact on my thinking. But this particular

morning, Caroline was crying because she felt she had more butter on her toast than the rest of us did. And I just looked up at her and this thought popped into my head that said, I will not be having tantrums over toast when I'm 32 years old, which is how old she was at the time. having tantrums over toast when I'm 32 years old, which is how old she was at the time. How old are you now, Hadley? I'm 45. And you do say that you're recovered, but you also acknowledge that it took decades. It did take decades and decades. And I found other self-destructive behaviours along the way in an attempt to distract myself from the

anorexia. I then got very into drugs, which lasted throughout my 20s and 30s. And then it stopped when I had my twins when I was 38. It wasn't entirely simple in that I suddenly wasn't, you know, skipping through a meadow. But I knew when I had them that I no longer wanted to be thinking about food all the time. I didn't want to be sneaking, cutting out food, obsessing about what I looked like, really, because I had these two enormous baby boys to look after all of a sudden. Can we just go back then to your very first hospital admission? And from my perspective, as someone who, for whatever reason, hasn't had an eating disorder, I began to feel really troubled by, well, I understand it must be an essential way of treating eating three big meals, three snacks, you couldn't really move between those meals. You weren't allowed to exercise. It does. It seems very rudimental somehow as a way of treating this condition.

It is very rudimental. And in some ways it is still very rudimental. I mean, so I was in hospital 30 years ago. So obviously some things have changed. But the truth is when a girl or woman goes into hospital, she is extremely underweight. And she has no ability to tune into what her appetite is or what her physical needs are until she puts on some weight. All the signals in her brain and in her hormones are entirely confused. So they do need to force feed her. Also, this is someone with a mental illness who believes that if they eat, the world will end. And so the doctors do need to enforce an eating regime in order to get these people to eat. But that's what it is, an eating regime. it honestly makes me feel quite nauseous to think of it to

think of it that way and there's a is there an element of of well there must be an element of contagion amongst the the women they are largely women who are there because you're competing with each other oh very much so um it's not just contagion, but competition. So competition about who can eat the least, who can sneak and exercise the most. So it can be quite bullying. The thing with eating disorder wards is that they're populated largely by girls and women, almost entirely by girls and women most of the time. And the patients are in for three to six months at a time.

So it's not like a normal A&E ward where it's very transitory. People are there for very long periods of time. They're together all the time, often sharing the same room. So it has a real boarding school element to it. And that kind of results in cliques and competition. And aside from all that, even if you're on the most supportive ward of all time, which I was at times, you're still swapping tips. So I learned how to make myself sick in hospital. I learned about cutting myself in hospital. I learned about laxatives in hospital. I didn't do all of those things. But those were things I hadn't figured out on my own on the outside. And I absolutely learned about them in hospital. But without those stays in hospital, and there were a lot, I mean, you were in hospital, I think, for two and a half years out of a three year period at one point. Do you think you'd have ever, ever have got better without those stays in hospital? No, I couldn't eat on my own at home. I know I went back and spoke to some of the patients I was in with. And a few of them feel

that hospital made them worse. And I totally understand that. And it definitely prolonged some bad habits in me. But I could never have put on the weight on my own at home. I never did put on weight at home. So I needed the hospital. The fact is, you need to physically recover before you can start mentally recovering. And that's one of the big problems with anorexia. And what at the time did you need from your family? What I needed was for them to, the best thing that they did was they continued to live their own lives. So in my first hospital, which was the Priory, the psychiatrist there told my parents that they needed to devote their lives to me, you know, not go on any holidays, not think about anything else,

but my recovery. And I became the focus of the family, which is the worst thing I think that can happen with an anorexic. First of all, if she's doing it partly because she wants the attention, which sounds like a very pat way of doing it, saying it, but I don't even mean it in a derogatory way. But if she wants people to watch what she's doing, she's then being rewarded with her family's attention. She's also, it's also then creates a role in the family where the anorexic is the star, is the focal point. And that's very

difficult for other siblings, for example, and it creates a very unhealthy family dynamic. Once I got into the Maudsley and then the Bethlehem, my psychiatrist there, Janet Treasure, said, no, you all need to continue living your lives. Go on holiday, go to Florida, go to your book group, spend time with my sister with, you know, my sister, etc. And then I saw that real life was happening without me. And it showed me what I was missing in the outside world. And it reminded me of what my family life was like before I started starving myself. And that sort of, it stopped my family colluding with the anorexia, that anorexia was all there is in the world. And let's just go back to why it is predominantly a female issue. Another thing

it's really important to emphasize is this is not new. It isn't the responsibility of Instagram or any other form of social media. It's not because models are tall and skinny. Women have been, women and girls have been choosing to starve themselves forever, it would seem. Why? Since the Middle Ages. I mean, you know, so many of the saints that we know today, Catherine of Siena, Joan of Arc, they were almost certainly, it's hard to say they were anorexic because it's a relatively modern term, but they stopped eating and that was seen as a sign of their holiness.

Almost every female saint from 800 AD onwards is recorded as not eating. For a lot of women and girls, and still today, they have realized that the only power they have to control their lives is through their bodies and through by not eating. Once they stop eating, that's when people listen to them, particularly teenage girls. It's also important to note that anorexia almost invariably sets in around puberty time. So for me, I was 14, absolutely typical time for it to happen. That's when your body starts changing. For me, I was absolutely terrified of being sexualized and my own sexuality. What does that mean? If you stop eating, it stops your periods. I didn't get my

period. So I was 20. You don't develop breasts. Men aren't looking at you. You know, a lot of teenage girls still feel like a child inside and by not eating, you still look like a child. It can also be very difficult for a lot of girls as it was for me to separate from their mother, which is part of the process of being a teenager. And the girl might also worry about her mother if she leaves her behind. By not eating, she's giving her mother a job to stay close to her and also making her mother stay close to her if she doesn't want to separate. And I think people really underestimate how hard it is for girls to grow up. And anorexia has always been, you know, one of the major responses to that.

Every recorded history, every recorded instance of anorexia through history, it always starts between the ages of 12 and 16. And the version of womanhood that is shown to our girls now, what they can expect from life, I suppose it's not surprising that things are getting worse. No, absolutely. And, you know, women are held to a different standard still in public life. And as much as we say, well, women now have all these choices. They go to work. They, you know, can do this.

They can do that. Yes, but they are still the emotional caregivers. I think a lot of girls today look at their mothers working full time, but also still being the full time mother, essentially, while the father is still working full time. That's a lot. You know, that's a lot for a girl to take on. Being a woman does not look that much fun. And you make a clear link between autism and eating disorders, and also between gender dysmorphia and eating disorders. And just expand a little bit on that. And you've written a great deal in the book about gender dysmorphia, but just tell me a bit more about your links between that and anorexia.

So the autism one is for a long time, people wondered if anorexia was a female form of autism because the tests for autism were geared, have always been geared towards five-year-old boys. And little girls are much better at mimicking social cues than boys. And therefore they can disguise their autism for longer. And the theory was that these girls with autism get to puberty and suddenly social cues around them get more confused. You know, dynamics between girls in school become more complicated. Their body starts changing and their response to that might be to become anorexic. It's a way of cutting yourself off from the world, hiding.

You can hide behind your hair like a lot of anorexics do, pulling their hair down. And now most eating disorder boards, I believe, in this country are autism friendly. The ones I was on were all autism friendly. Now, other doctors are a bit skeptical about that. And they say, no, the symptoms that a girl manifests when she's starving, they look like autism, but that's just because she's underweight, you know, such as lack of empathy, hiding, you know, inability to connect with people. And once you put some weight, then those will, those will dissipate. But I think there is some kind of crossover, certainly not for me, but for some. With gender dysmorphia, I really didn't want to talk about it in this book, because I feel like I've written about it so much. But the more I talked to doctors,

I realized that there is a crossover. And the thing that really caught my eye was as I was working on this book, a report came out saying that JIDS, the now closed former youth clinic for gender in this country, NHS clinic for gender, had the patient makeup was now 70% girls aged 12 to 15. And I thought, that's interesting, that's getting up close to what an eating disorder ward is like. So I went off and talked to various ex-jizz doctors, as well as child psychologists and neuropsychologists. And they said, yes, you know, that the feelings that power anorexia for teenage girls are now being expressed through gender dysmorphia in the sense that they're binding their breasts. They're trying to look asexual, they're hiding, you know, they're scared of becoming women, they're scared of being sexualized.

All these things are now being expressed through a desire to be a boy. And there is a clear crossover. And there's also a huge comorbidity between when you look at the patients at JIDS, the number who came in with eating disorders and the number who were also diagnosed for autism. So if you think of anorexia, gender dysphoria and autism as three circles and overlapping like a Venn diagram, some girls will have two, some girls will have three and some girls will just have one. And the link as well with porn and the fact that we have a pornified nation effectively, don't we? And I don't know about you, but I'm still, I'm waiting genuinely for a prominent politician to really grasp this issue and actually talk about the impact of all this on our children

and indeed on all of us, not just our children. Yes, I am genuinely shocked when I see what's on online porn. I am not a porn fan. I'm not saying that like some kind of moral high mistress. I'm just very good at using my own imagination. Thank you very much. And when I look at things like YouPorn or Pornhub and stuff like the sex on those sites is so unbelievably violent. Like you and I grew up, Jane, where porn was, you know, a big boobed woman, you know woman on the front of the Daily Sport or something and smiling and looking all wholesome. When you look at Pornhub now, it's literally things like bang her guts out and men choking women from behind.

And it looks absolutely terrifying. And if I was a girl today, I would be even more scared of sex than I was when I was a teenager, when I was absolutely terrified of it anyway, when it just sounded like something painful. Now it is painful. Now people expect it to be painful. And I think you cannot overestimate how this would affect young teenagers who are all looking at it, who are carrying it around all the time in their pockets. It's no longer something on the top shelf of a newsagent. It's all the time on them. As soon as you hand your child a smartphone,

you're giving them access to 24-hour bullying and porn. That is what teenagers get on their smartphones. And I think that absolutely confuses people's ideas of their sexuality, their gender, and their sense of selves. It cannot have any other effect but that. Hadley Freeman and the book is Good Girls, a story and a study of anorexia. Now, I know lots of people listening will have experiences of anorexia, and I very much hope of recovery from it too.

But we'd love to hear from you. It's such a difficult area, this, and hard to talk about if you don't know too much about it and you've been outside the experience yourself. So you can tell us what you think about what Hadley had to say. It's Jane and Fi at times.radio. And I think one of the points that Hadley makes so well is just that one about the teenage anxiety

of turning into an adult woman. And I think we really, really need to talk more openly about that. And for us in our generation, find ways of making being an adult woman less frightening, more appealing, and less kind of mysterious, really. And sometimes I think we don't do that. We don't clock that enough. And it's not about saying, you know, young women need to be empowered, and they need to be strong, and they need to take on the fight. And you know, they need to, you know they need to take on the fight and you know they need to you know firm up towards the patriarchy and all of that kind of stuff it's it's saying the exact opposite isn't it which can sometimes feel like a foolish thing to say but to say you can find

your place in the world without needing all of that armor around you. And do you understand what I'm saying? Or maybe the world could change to allow it, to allow you to feel safer and to navigate it more easily. Very much so. But for as long as it's not that world, and it is not that world yet, I do sometimes think we pile a whole lot onto very, very young girls

about how difficult it is to navigate the world as a woman. I can really understand how sometimes that fear must feel really, really overwhelming. I am not an expert on eating disorders and I am not an expert on the anxiety of young women. But I know, just as an older woman, that those conversations need to be had. We need to find positives to pass down to the younger generation. And sometimes it's hard to know what to say

without it being trite or feeling that you're kind of letting the sisterhood down. Well, I really would like to hear from other people who have been there because I just feel like I've been around it, but I haven't lived through it. And the stories of recovery are very, very, very, very important because there isn't one path out of it that suits everybody. But, you know, there must be something that rings true

in some people's experience. And you just need to be hearing that, but, you know, there must be something that rings true in some people's experience and you just need to be hearing that, don't you? Yeah, you definitely do. So thank you to Hadley. That book is not always easy to read, actually, but it's an incredibly important book and I really do hope that it offers hope to everybody who's been

or is perhaps going through that experience. Thank you very much for listening. We will be back tomorrow. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio.

We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fee and give us a follow. So in other words, we're everywhere, aren't we, Jane? Pretty much everywhere.

Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.