Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Thigh nipping fish?! (with Rory Stewart)

Episode Date: September 11, 2023

Jane and Fi are reunited and it feels so good. They have lots to cover including bald prime ministers, lidos and all the languages Jane speaks... Plus, broadcaster, academic and former politician Rory Stewart joins them to discuss his new memoir 'Politics On the Edge'.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello woman. Hello other woman. Little lady. Yes, we're back. Back together. Reunited. No, don't do that. Feels so good. Nearly Christmas and we're on the downward spiral towards 2024. No, don't say that. How was your holiday? Which one? Oh. Oh.

Well, of course, I did pop back here for a week in between. Yes. To be fair to me. I'm not interested in that. No, OK. Yes, very nice, thank you. Got a bit of sun. I mean, as you can tell, there's no difference.

Not really, kids. I am a big believer in the old factor 50, so it doesn't. And also, I don't know whether it's an age thing but in the end I can't I can't actually sit in the sun for all that long I really can't so I seek the shade from about 10, 15 onwards if I'm honest

well that's probably quite sensible but do you not like a a slight kind of brain fever sizzle I like that do you know you get slightly kind of woozy and your thoughts start racing? A little bit like when you've had too much cheese. I quite like that.

I do. I actually began to feel quite ill one day in the heat. And that was with a hat on. Factor 50, it's just in the end, I know what I am. I'm a homebody who likes a temperature of a maximum of 21 Celsius. That's basically it. Well, you should have joined our holiday in West Sussex. Well, I was waiting to be asked.

It didn't ping the mercury above, I think, probably 24. Oh, really? And that was hot. That was very hot. Very hot in the afternoon. Yeah. But you know what, Jane? It was very nice not taking an aeroplane anywhere.

And it just, if we'd gone somewhere, it would have been that week of the terrible air traffic control nightmare as well. And just those scenes at airports. I'm so sorry if anybody got caught up in them. They're just so bloomin' horrible. And there were only so many times that, you know, you can buy a, what do they call them? Best ever deal from WH Smiths and feel joyful that you're out and about. I just want to mention just a book that genuinely made me feel quite tearful that I did read on holiday.

I've got a lot. We've got a lot of reading to do, haven't we? We certainly have. But a reading for pleasure book, and most of my reading is for pleasure and fairness. But a reading for pleasure book, and most of my reading is for pleasure in fairness, I read on holiday Jonathan Coe's book Bourneville, which I bought partly because when I was a student at Birmingham Uni, I used to walk around Bourneville Village because then, at that time, back in the 80s, they made chocolate in Bourneville.

And the scent in the air was just 100% chocolate button. So I have never, ever forgotten the scent, the heady aroma of chocolate that used to fill the air in Bourneville, which is why I bought the book. And it turned out to be one of the best books I've read in ages. It's just about family and about, oh, I just really recommend it. It's out in paperback now. If you've never read anything by him before, and I hadn't, this might be a good starting point. And I will chuck in Reykykjavik which is a crime novel written by katrin jacobs dotir and ragnar jonas jonas and no is that the prime minister it's the prime minister of iceland and one of iceland's finest writers who got together during the pandemic and have written a book together and if you just like that that crime fiction matrix that we've talked about quite often

before, of just really, really satisfying conclusions, good characters, takes you to a different place. It's absolutely brilliant. I read that in one day. In Sussex? Yes. And I did read our book club book as well. I've got to go home and read that tonight. So it's by Ayinka Braithwaite and it's called My Sister the Serial Killer and we've got lots to talk about with that. Lots of people want to talk about the ending. I want to talk about the ending. It really won't take

you very long, Jane. I did that in a day on the Sun Lounge or two in two great big gulps. I'll get stuck in. And we're going to do that on the 22nd of September. So I know lots of people have very thought and we're going to do that on the 22nd of september so i know lots of people have very thoughtfully popped a couple of comments up on the insta which you're very welcome to do or you can send us an email with your thoughts about it jane and fiat times dot radio or you can also send us a voice note if you'd like to actually appear in voice is that

the right term yes on the podcast yeah yeah your gorgeous tones um can we talk briefly about um what's happened in morocco because we have an email here from a listener um which i'll read in a sec but i just wanted to mention that an old friend of mine one of the old bbc five live girls um somebody that i meet up with annually for our, we have a kind of annual chat-a-thon where we just get together and we quite literally talk for about 24 hours, very little sleep and hardly any interruptions. Well, apart from eating, obviously. And Jill is the name of the woman and she is a member of that group. And she was in the Atlas Mountains on holiday last week, popped up in our WhatsApp group just to say

happy birthday to another member of the WhatsApp group. And then, of course, the earthquake happened and there was an absolutely terrible period of about 48 hours whilst we waited to hear from her again. And then we did. But I appreciate and I know she appreciates that not everybody had that happy outcome. And, you know, it was actually the first time in my life that there was an international event of that nature that I actually had an investment in, in the sense that there was somebody I knew personally who I knew could have been involved in it.

And luckily for her and for us, hasn't been involved. Although, you know, I think it'll take a bit of getting used to the things that she has probably seen over the last couple of days gosh well you're lucky to have made it to almost 60 years of age and not had somebody affected by an international event I think it is the first time in my life that somebody that I would you know consider a friend has been embroiled in and in obviously I've got friends who have worked as journalists in all sorts of heady, difficult situations, but it was just a horrible, I don't know how people,

because we are so used to instant connection, aren't we? So everybody was messaging this person and saying, you know, are you all right? Please respond, let me know. She must have had, I don't know, hundreds of messages. So this is where WhatsApp is so brilliant because you can just ping a message to all the various groups you're a member of saying, it's OK, we're all right. But it was a horrible period of time.

So it really made me think about what on earth it must be like to wait for good news and then, frankly, not get it. Well, there must be an awful lot of people, obviously, because the death toll is so high now in Morocco, who are just desperately, desperately hoping that it's just because somebody can't get a signal that they can't get into touch. Have you seen the email from a listener in Marrakesh?

So, yes, do you want to do that one? And then I've got happier news from the Lido. OK, yes, this is from Caroline who says, I was woken at 11.11 by a roaring sound, huge vibrations and shaking caused by the earthquake. Our room in an old Riyadh in Marrakesh started cracking. Glasses and ornaments smashed to the floor and our beds leapt around. It was absolutely terrifying.

My daughter and I rushed outside and down the stairs to be greeted by women carrying small children covered in dust. Guests were roaming around looking distraught. It was absolute chaos. Three days later and waiting for a flight to London, I'm still inwardly shaking. We slept, that's in speech marks, with 30 other guests in the reception of the Riyadh opposite, which was a new build with no signs of wear.

You know when you look at disasters as they unfold on the news and you see people sleeping in a school hall and you think, I'm not sure I could cope with that. Well, you do. And we were lucky. Many locals are sleeping on the streets with nowhere to go. Some areas are completely devastated. Others are untouched. It's just impossible to get your mind around the suffering and the randomness, but also the resilience in the face of such disaster. Well, to take our minds off the fear, Caroline says, we talked to all manner of strangers. An astrophysicist who'd been pushed aside by a local as a piece of mosque fell to the ground. We talked about light years, the stars and the galaxy to get our heads out of the moment.

We had a conversation in fractured English with a German family who shared the couches we were using. There was snatched talk as well with staff whose families had been badly affected or who they had yet to hear from but they still insisted on looking after the hotel guests. The kindness we've encountered has been extraordinary. Well Caroline I'm glad you encountered such kindness and And that is wonderful. And particularly, your heart goes out to those staff at the hotel who kept plugging away at their daily routine when they must have been so worried about what had happened to their families. But I hope you're okay. And I hope you get home safely. And just you're able to not put this

behind you because you won't, frankly, but learn to live with it, I guess. But thank you very much for emailing us. Do you know what? It's always the rebuilding after such a catastrophic disaster like this one that flabbergasts me, you know, when you see pictures. And we've just seen so many recently, actually, because obviously the wildfires on the islands around Hawaii were just absolutely devastating and they've had terrible floods in Spain.

You know, the images are just extraordinary, aren't they, of whole cities being flattened at the moment. And you always think, God, you know, how do you start? Where do you start in trying to rebuild those places? But quite often, if you've been a tourist caught up in those kind of disasters, you retain a lifelong affinity, don't you, with the place that that's happened. And if you're a kind and compassionate person

who can go back to their home in the first world and, you know, just shut the door behind you and sink into the sofa, I know an awful lot of people, you know, think that they should do something for the communities that they've just kind of passed through. And actually, I think Jill would be one of those people. Yeah, I know you know her too, don't you?

Want to have a sense of responsibility. And do you know what? We were talking about 9-11 today, weren't we? Because it is the anniversary of that day. And so many people who were touched by that tragedy. Do you remember the planes that had to land in strange places? Because there was a musical isn't there yeah the aircraft you know a band from flying over the whole of america so those communities bonded

together and people have kept in touch you know for 20 over 20 years now and they're godparents to small babies who arrived you know people who were pregnant on the flights and stuff it is extraordinary sometimes the human compassion that comes through. But I'm just always painfully aware Jane, you know, we can tell a happy story about people who've come through stuff that oh, it's not the same for everybody today. It is random. It is so random and so bloody cruel, frankly.

But anyway, Caroline, I really do hope you're okay and thank you very much. She does say that she put us on just to kind of help her, take her away from what was around her. So I'm very happy to do news from the Lido on just to kind of help her take her away from what was around her so i'm very happy to do news from the lido in exactly that kind of vein because i know that this is a little bit of a gear shift but you know what yesterday i went to the lido in london fields in east london where i lived jane because it was 32 degrees i got a slot i mean it's like how did you i don't

understand this what do you mean well you have to do bookings um because it's incredibly popular and quite often over the last two weeks when there's been very good weather you can't get I don't understand this. What do you mean? Well, you have to do bookings because it's incredibly popular. And quite often over the last two weeks when there's been very good weather, you can't get a booking. And I'm checking my phone on the app, you know, once every kind of four minutes. How long do you book before? Oh, so you get a 50-minute slot to swim, but then you can obviously hang around, stand up, have a cup of coffee. Anyway, I've got a magical slot, so I thought, well, I'll just post this

because I'd really love it if i was ever in charge of anything uh to uh my only kind of diktat would be there had to be a lido in every single brother borough in every single place in the country because they're just so full of joy they're so full of health they're just so full of normal bodies there's never anybody in the London Fields Lido who's got a kind of magazine cover body. Do you know what I mean? So they're great places to be. It's full of normal human beings having a nice time.

I think in real life, you'll find they're all... I was on a beach in Sicily last week, and I'm here to tell you, all body shapes are out there. Yeah. Beach ready just means, is your body beach ready? Have you got a body? Go to the beach. But if you're one of the young people at the moment on the Insta and the

socials and the Love Island and all of that kind of stuff, you know, you genuinely you're obsessed with thigh gaps and all kinds of horrors and stuff. So I love the Lido for that. So I posted this picture just saying if I ever became Prime Minister then I would build one of these in

brackets a Lido not a woman wearing an uncomfortable orange swimsuit in every town because this right in the middle of the shot was a woman who just had one of those swimsuits disappearing up her bum like most swimsuits always do when you sit down I mean they are awkward can I just say or when you sit down. I mean, they are awkward. Can I just say? Or when you get out of a pool or anything. Do you? Because I've got my HRT patch on my bum cheek, usually. You've got to place your one piece, in my case, carefully. Or you've got to place the patch carefully so it doesn't stick out at the end.

Well, and you don't want to... Not that it matters, I suppose. Yeah, no, but you don't want to have a bit of friction either because otherwise, presumably, that would jeopardise your patch. Gosh, my patch hasn't been jeopardised for a while. Do you want to carry on? Paula replied, the woman in the uncomfortable swimsuit is me.

If I'd known you were sitting behind me, I'd have adjusted my cosy, said hello, asked for a selfie and forced you to be my best friend. That Jane woman you hang around with would never be as bold as to wear a swimming costume up the Khyber. Oh, but I would. That's the problem. And so our lovely little chat continued.

That's unreal, said someone called Feedlover. I'm so sorry to have drawn attention to it because I felt really bad, actually. Well, she seems to have taken it very well. Are you fully recovered? I'll be looking out for you now. We must become friends. This is like the start of a Richard Curtis movie. And off we went. But it was just one of those delicious

wonderful, you know when you just look at your phone and you go, you what? You what? How on earth in all of the cities in all of the land was Paula looking at her phone? That came through within about two minutes of me posting the picture. So I just wanted to say hello to everybody who then got involved,

everybody who loved the fact that that connection had been made, and everybody who wanted a Lido in their neck of the woods, and all of the lovely people who were swimming yesterday too. Well, there is a campaign, I think, in my part of London to get a Lido. So the Future Lidos group is campaigning for Lido's across the country. And because probably there was a huge investment in the Victorian and post-Victorian era in Lido's as people realised the joy of swimming. And because it meant you got clean at the same time, yada yada. So there are an awful lot of Lido's that then got neglected and were closed down.

And Future Lido's campaigns for those to be jollied up and reopened. And there's one in Cleveland in Bath that's just reopened, which is beautiful. Right. Just very briefly, just define Lido. Open air swimming pool. That's it? Yeah. With a space, but with a green space around it? No, not necessarily. Because there

are some Lido's. There's one right in the centre of town here in London, which has very little space around it, but it's still a Lido. I think it just means open air. Okay. Right. And what kind of water? Is it chlorine water?

Yeah, there are salt pools around the country as well. But yeah, most Lido's, I think maybe, and I might get this wrong and correct me if I do, I think the one in Arundel might be a saltwater one. Right. But most of them are just chlorinated. Some of them are huge. So some of them are 90 metres or 100 metres long.

An Olympic swimming pool is 50 metres. So imagine swimming a length that's 100 metres. I think Brockwell Lido is 100 or something. The people I was away with last week, they were doing, we all went in the sea. 100 or something like that. The people I was away with last week, we all went in the sea. And the sea is, as you know,

I actually do a little bit of seawater swimming when I get the chance, which obviously isn't very often because Crosby Beach has many, many attractions, but I wouldn't, the greatest respect to the Mersey, I still don't quite fancy swimming in it. But it was lovely off the coast of Sicily. And the other women could all do the crawl.

I can't do the crawl. Are you just doing the breaststroke? So I just bobbed around. Do you put your head under the water? Oh, yeah, I always wear sunglasses. Oh, well, that's tricky. You'll lose your sunglasses. No, I'd say, well, they value you.

I only ever buy £4.99 sunglasses. So I did lose one pair, but, hey, it doesn't matter. And I hope the Sicilian shark who's now wearing them looks good in them do you know what they'll wash up on a beach and someone will be thrilled absolutely thrilled i'm not sure they'll be that thrilled on one occasion i was nipped by something but it had sped off before i could see what it was what would that be a fish a little fish do you think it had two goes at my thigh what are the chances i don't know um yeah do you know what we talked quite a lot about hair and swimming hats with Jason Donovan last week.

He's sad to have missed him. Oh, yeah, very much so. He doesn't like to wear a hat and he swims a lot. Yeah, but he's only got short hair, so what's the problem? I don't know. We didn't really get to the bottom of it. Oh, OK. Yeah.

What was he on to talk about? Grease. He's got a part as... Do you remember in Grease a part called Teen Angel? Yeah, hasn't Peter Andre been playing it? I thought Peter Andre had a bigger part. It isn't a big part, is it? So he's getting a lot

of money to make a fleeting appearance on stage. Listen, I mean, if you and I were offered the chance, we'd do it, wouldn't we? Oh, I'd just bob into the West End for three minutes a night. Yeah, no worries. I'm sure the money's absolutely terrific. But was he nice, Jason? Oh, he was really, really lovely, actually.

He was incredibly nice. And it is just one of those slightly spooky things where I couldn't quite believe that I was meeting him. I just always thought that he must be way, way older than me because I'd been watching him on TV. You know, when I was at university, we used to watch Neighbours twice a day. That was back in the days when we valued our education and the state was paying for us. Yes, write a letter. So it was just quite funny to realise

he's exactly the same age. And we did, yeah, we had a nice varied conversation with him actually with the Claire Balding, who's still got very, very presidential hair. Claire? Yes. She has remarkable hair, doesn't she? I wrote a column about her hair once. Did you? I did. It was around the time when John Kerry was in a presidential race

and he had electable hair. Yeah, he did have electable hair. And there'd been a lot of surveys done in America to say that he had electable hair. And I wrote a column about the fact that Claire Balding, on that basis, should really be running the country. Well, to be fair to Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer, they're both gents with a very good head of hair.

Well, you could argue that in this country, being bald has meant defeat for many politicians. Have we ever had a bald Prime Minister? Nope. I think you could argue that James Callaghan was definitely receding. But William Hague didn't make it to prime minister ian duncan smith no uh so kirsten has got he's got quite a lot of kind of brill cream on his hair hasn't he well yes i would put that down i mean that's a substantial head of hair for a man of his age um because he's i think he's my age a lot

of men are definitely thinning, but there's absolutely no sign of it with him. Because you've got a very good head of hair. Do you think a run in politics might be in the offing? I think my tendency to shoot from the hip, Fiona, might slightly hold me back. Do you think? I mean, as you know, on a daily basis,

the programme tries to book guests who raise concerns. The number of people you've offended, the number of times you've been taken outside and spoken to, it's just remarkable, actually. Honestly, IRL, I'm a really sweet, rather biddable woman. I don't really do any damage. I'll tell you what, one thing I would like to say about Sicily, and just a shout-out to the people in Sicily

who invented and continue to make croissant. Croissant? How are you spelling that? Croissant. Has it got a W in it? Croissant. Filled with Sicilian lemon flavoured custard.

I had a foodgasm when I had my first one, and I was only there four days. I had four of them. And are they really calling them croissant? Croissant, yeah. Well, I went to a coffee shop and just pointed, because my Italian is, you'll be amazed to hear, on the kind of par with my French. Yes. My German, my Mandarin, my Spanish, my Portuguese. In other words, I really only just speak English. And generally speaking, I find this. When you go abroad, you simply shout in English. And by God, they generally speaking understand.

But you do speak Scouse as well, don't you? I'm also entirely fluent in Scouse, although that's not always useful abroad. Is it not? I revert to receive pronunciation when on my travels. OK. So when you point at the can't possibly be called a croissant but we'll go with croissant i think it was well i've always thought that the italians were incredibly proud you know verging on the no isolationist about their pastries so they

wouldn't have been adopting a french isolationist as they like but in sicily there were croissant in every single coffee bar and i had a large croissant with that custard at the airport on Thursday, and I'm still thinking about it. God, it was absolutely... That was a particularly good one. Right. Were you here when we were talking about tattoos? No.

I honestly can't remember what we've talked about and not talked about, because we've been apart for a very long time. It's been a clear three weeks, hasn't it? I think so, yes. My bloods have returned to a normal level. This is from S in Edinburgh who says a friend who had

a Pegasus flying horse tattoo on his upper arm inserted many years ago was asked recently why he had chosen to have a My Little Pony tattoo because the tattoo had spread and blurred and looked like a cartoon. Oh, that's right. We were talking about what happens.

We wanted some pictures, actually, of really old, aged, crepey skin that had been tattooed in younger life. You do. Today on the Tube, actually, there were an astonishing number of people with tattoos. Well, it's one in four of the adult population in the country now. I completely believe that. In London, I think it's higher. Obviously, there are lots of young people travelling around London mid-morning when I come into work. And, yeah, it's astonishing. Actually, I just don't like them. I wouldn't care whether it was a woman, a man.

I just do not like them. Well, there you go, everybody. I know, I've broken a few hearts. You have, very much so. David Beckham will never be yours. No, if I could get a tattoo of a croissant with Sicilian lemon filling coming out of it, then I might reconsider.

I think old age might turn that into something rather oozing and unpleasant, Jane. Well, OK. I don't really want to imagine an old age pastry with lemon cream you'll see out of it no i can see what you mean okay but i just sometimes you travel you travel to places and you come across a delicacy and i will never forget that yeah no i know what you mean so if i can just give a shout out to uh the east wittering uh whitebait, deviled whitebait. Yeah.

It was some of the nicest fish I've ever, ever eaten. I like a bit of whitebait. In a tiny little... Little cone. Lovely cone. Yeah. It was all spicy. It had just come out of the sea.

They were quite firm little things. They were absolutely beautiful. And sometimes that is all it takes, isn't it? A sunset and saltiness in the air and a little cone of fried food. Happy as Larry. Shall we talk about Rory Stewart? Well, he was our guest on the programme today, wasn't he?

And you're about to hear him now on Off Air. And I think it's fair to say, well, I was a bit... Having now met him, I mean, you know, I say met, been in the same room as him while the interview took place, I'm as perplexed by him as I was before. I'm more perplexed. Are you? OK, I'm glad I'm in good company then. Because he is a very slight figure, isn't he?

And a slightly nervous-seeming one, but also incredibly confident at the same time. Does that make sense? It makes complete sense. And having read his book, and that's why he's in, he's written a memoir called Politics on the Edge. The thing that I am left with is a feeling of a very vulnerable but very driven man, and that's quite a rare combination.

Yes, it is. So there is something about his self-awareness, which is so keen, so all the way throughout the book he is something about his self-awareness, which is so keen. So all the way throughout the book, he is aware of his own failings and really quite beats himself up about that too, whilst also being capable of being highly critical about other people, the part that other people have played in his downfall, but never stopping.

You know, he doesn't want to stop. He just wants to carry on. I think, you know, he still has political ambitions. Oh downfall, but never stopping. You know, he doesn't want to stop. He just wants to carry on. I think, you know, he still has political ambitions. Oh, yeah, very much so. And his downfall has taken a rather lucrative turn. Well, an enormously lucrative turn. I believe the latest figure, and it's worth airing this, actually, is that him and Alistair Campbell, who do a podcast,

I wouldn't bother, personally, are making £70,000 an episode. Is that each? Yes. It's astonishing, isn't it? So politics has come good for him. But anyway, it's a really interesting book and I really enjoyed reading it. It's also really beautifully written.

Here's a little phrase. This is something that he says at the beginning about his fellow, previously fellow politicians. We are trapeze artists stretching for holds on rusty equipment over fatal deaths. A slip is easy. And you could read his latest book for its descriptions of David Cameron's fresh, plump skin and blurred features or George Osborne's slightly creepy long fingers. blurred features or George Osborne's slightly creepy long fingers. You could also read it as an account of the vagaries of Brexit, or you can read it as an excoriating account of how powerless our current state of democracy really is. So I began by asking him how he'd like it to be read.

So if I was being serious for a moment, I think I found going into Parliament very, very depressing. I think it's much worse than I imagined. And I think it's probably, it's a strange thing to say, because obviously the public has a pretty negative impression of politicians. But I think worse than most of the public would imagine in the way that it operates. It's the parties, the whips, the campaigning, the way that Parliament works. It's not a sensible way of doing anything. There was very little serious conversation about policy.

I thought we were very badly equipped for the way the world was changing. It created very odd personalities. I felt this myself. I thought I was becoming a much worse person the longer I was in politics. I was getting stupid or I was getting less good. And so I'm trying to explain the problem. And I think basically I've come to the conclusion the basic problem is that you shouldn't run everything from the centre.

Yes, it's a particularly sick centre doing particularly bad things. But even if you reformed it it the fundamental problem is that we need to give power away we need to decentralize do you think now with the benefit of hindsight that you're actually suited to politics you've done a lot of other things as well as the six ministerial positions as well as being a conservative mp you were an army officer as well as being a Conservative MP. You were an army officer. You worked for the intelligence service. Were you possibly at one time to Britain

what this parliamentary researcher might be to China, a charge he's vehemently denied? Are you actually not the right person to be in politics? I suspect all of us in our jobs feel a bit at odds with our jobs. And there were some things that I failed at spectacularly. I clearly failed to prevent Boris Johnson from becoming Prime Minister. I failed to stop his particular version of a hard Brexit. I failed to stop the lurch of the Conservative Party to the populist right. These were very, very deep failures that I felt

really guilty about. And I feel that they really matter because I put nine years of my life into trying to make sense of this whole thing. And I finished at a time when British politics was its most shambolic and shameful. Other things I'm reasonably good at. I mean, I think we don't hold politicians to the same standard that we hold other people to. And I guess if I were to say to you, are you completely suited to be a Times journalist? Your answer would probably be, yes, some bits I am, some bits I'm not, some bits I'm good at, some bits I'm not. One of the things I'm trying to do is help people understand that politics is a job and a very messy job with a lot of the same frustrations that every job has.

Crazy bosses, mounds of paperwork, bureaucracy, nonsense, doing a lot of things that don't feel very useful. It's a really claustrophobic book to read, and I don't mean that in a damning sense at all but the picture that you paint of what goes on in parliament is to the reader and somebody who's never operated within that field incredibly chaotic it's filled with lacklustre people with this selfish political ambition some are employing a kind of festering malice against logical thought and progress. I mean, it seems quite an alienating place to be, actually.

Which bit of it do you think that you did the best? I mean, if we can take your role as Prisons Minister, actually, I think that is interesting and very relevant to people this week. Did you do that job well in amongst all of that chaos? It's probably the job I did best. And it was strange that because my background was in foreign affairs. And so I was also a development minister, a foreign office minister. And my constituency was Cumbria. And I thought a lot about landscape and environment and I was the environment minister, but strangely prisons, which I had no background in, I barely stepped foot in a prison for 20 years,

I found really satisfying, really fascinating. And it's partly because they were so bad that you realise that prisons are just shameful, disgusting, filthy, dangerous. And therefore, you're starting from such a low base. When I came in, violence had increased threefold in prisons in just five years. Gone from 10,000 assaults a year, which is pretty terrifying, to 30,000 assaults a year by the time I came in.

And I'd been by then a minister for long enough to understand how strange being a minister is. It's not actually like running a normal business or a company. It's not really about the detail. It's about setting very, very clear visions. And for me, that vision was about reducing violence in prisons. So I said, I will resign in 12 months unless violence comes down. And by doing so, I was able, in a small way, to make a bit of an improvement on that. We were able to set up an operations room, focus on 10 prisons, and violence did come down. But you didn't have to resign, did you? You were saved by fate. Well, I didn't have to resign because I got violence down, would be my answer to that.

But you're also right that I was reshuffled, for international development. Can I say that's a politician's answer? Well, after I'd got violence down, I suppose it's my defence. Do you think somebody needs to resign at the moment? Because there would seem to be an extraordinary crisis in some prisons still in this country. I think that our prisons are a total mess.

I'm not sure much has helped on this issue by resignation, but I think the big thing that nobody's talking about is the prison population. One of the things I was most proud of in that job is I worked with David Gauke, who was my boss, to try to reduce the prison population dramatically. We wanted to get rid of all sentences under six months, all short-term sentences. We had people, met a man in Bedford prison who'd been in nine times in a year. The average stay in Durham was something like seven days. And these prison sentences are long enough to completely disrupt someone's life and wreck any hope of them holding down a job or housing, but certainly not long enough to turn anyone's life around and actually makes, endangers the public. People are more likely to re-offend. We got a white paper written. We got consent from Number 10. I took a lot of heat from the

Daily Mail and others doing this. And then Boris Johnson came in and abolished the whole thing. And the party then went down a route, which it's still on, basically toughening up sentences, which means that the prison population is scheduled to increase. If you look during the period I'm there, it's beginning to tail off. It's now going to radically go up. And the thing that makes me sick is that Keir Starmer is about to do the same thing. He's talking even harder. He's saying, you know, putting out ads saying,

Rishi Sunak's on the side of people who assault children. And, you you know I'm going to make sure another 1500 a year go to prison. It's so sad because you can't address prisons when you've got two people living in a cell that the Victorians built for one. I know that you've just said that resignations wouldn't make any difference but do you not have to do something at the moment that clarifies thought within the department that might provide some kind of an impetus for change? Yes. And I think you, I mean, I think that's something that I learned painfully as a politician,

that that's right. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm often berating populists, and I don't like these kind of three word slogansans like take back control but on the other hand I realized that as a politician you have to be radically simple you have to clarify minds you have to be able to say the department this is the one big thing that we're getting on with your book starts and it finishes in the same place which is you performing in a debate to be the next prime minister to be the next Prime Minister, to be the next leader of the Conservative Party. And I was really struck at the end, Rory Stewart,

by just how sad you seem to be because of your failure to do well in that debate and to therefore fulfil your ambitions. Are you still sad? I was, it was terrible. It was terrible. I mean, it was terrible, not because I hope, because I didn't fulfil my ambitions. It's because of the nature of those ambitions. What I was trying to do is stop a man, Boris Johnson, who I thought was an idle, dishonest charlatan who was going to erode the basic unwritten rules that govern our democracy and put us into a more polarised, divisive, unpleasant country, as well as pushing through a hard Brexit, which was going to endanger security in Northern Ireland, damage

our economy. I thought it was the worst thing that was happening in British politics. Worst thing I'd seen in British politics for 40, 50 years, and I didn't manage to stop it happening. So that was awful. Do you not have the last laugh, though? Because in a sense, you've failed upwards, haven't you? In not achieving that ambition, you then left politics, were asked to leave the Conservative Party by Boris Johnson, but you've gone on to become a real force outside of Westminster. You have the largest podcast, which you do with Alastair Campbell, which aside from anything else, is making you a millionaire. You will be able to choose more things to do with your time. You can write books like this.

You can have an incredible influence. So it's not so sad, is it? I guess. I mean, a lot of these things are very difficult to explain. But my whole life, and this may be much more to do with my childhood and my family, was about government. You know, I left school and what I wanted to do was join the army. And I left university and what I want to do was become a self-serving, join the foreign office.

And then what I did after that was work in a charity, run a university, a central university, and then go into politics. I'm not somebody who really has wanted to politics. I'm not somebody who really has wanted to be a commentator. And yes, it's wonderful. You know, I really enjoy the podcast. But if you honestly asked me, would I rather be Prime Minister and have been able to do something to try to address those problems? Or would I rather be doing the podcast? Of course, I'd much rather be Prime Minister. Tell us a bit more about that kind of impetus because it's fascinating to people who don't have it that belief in yourself that you could be the person to lead other people out of trouble how does that feel do you ever doubt it does it genuinely come from childhood is it is it does it come from privilege and success

I'm sure it's connected to childhood I'm sure it's connected to privilege and it's also connected to life experience and training I mean I think one of the reasons I when I look at my time in politics a lot of the time I'm drawn to crisis I'm drawn to being a flooding minister and getting into the water in Kalal, or I'm trying to deal with violence in prisons, or I'm trying to get out to Ebola and East and DRC, is because that's really what my life was. I mean, my life was Iraq and Afghanistan and dealing with crisis. I enjoy crisis. I'm quite calm in that situation. In fact, in some ways, it's probably one of my flaws in my personality that I'm quite a good person to have around if you want someone to deliver a baby or give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation

to somebody who's had a heart attack. But I think the criticism would be that I'm less patient with the slow structural policy work, which I think is a lot of what actually makes people's lives better over the long term. And that sense of frustration really comes through in the book. I know that you've talked about the mental health difficulties that some of your colleagues, your former colleagues have faced. You know, on the parliamentary estate, it does seem to be the case that there's a lot of stress, there's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of kind of inward looking thought process and scrutiny that can lead to poor mental health. And I know that recently, you have said that you know of

MPs who thought about taking their own life. I just wanted to ask you about the effect that you know of MPs who've thought about taking their own life. I just wanted to ask you about the effect that you think politics has had on your own mental health, because you seem to be a man who's very self-aware of his self-awareness, sometimes quite vulnerable, I think. Yeah, I... It's a difficult question. I mean, it definitely, I found it awful i mean i genuinely awful it

i thought it was a very important thing to do but it's not something i enjoyed or or really suited me i mean i i don't know how much this comes across in the book but my wife reminds me shoshana reminds me that almost from the moment i entered i was talking about getting out that she had to persuade me to stay another year run again in 2015 run again in 2017 that i you know i remember within a few months thinking am i going to be able to say to my constituents i'm really sorry but this is horrible i don't want to be doing this. And being very influenced by friends who were like, no, no, you've got to at least stand for two elections. People in Cumbria will feel very betrayed

if you just duck out after a few years. Did you find your constituents to be the most heartening part of the job? There are some beautiful descriptive passages, actually, Rory Stewart, particularly the one, and I wonder whether you can recollect it for our listeners, when you talk about walking out of England and into your constituency and what you see before you. It's the bit just before you have a kip in the Hawthorne hedge. My constituency, I was very, very, very lucky. And my constituency, I was very, very, very lucky. It's not only the most beautiful constituency in England,

the Northern Lake District and Hadrian's Wall. It's the most sparsely populated, the largest. It's a lot of the rural areas are defined by these amazing small family farms where I spent a lot of time stayed in people's houses went out with them on the hillsides rode with them watched them lambing and i felt such a sense of dignified and independent people were in cumbria and how proud I was to be able to try to interact with them. I was about to say represent them, but I think the problem with politics is this idea of representation. I have no right to represent a small Cumbrian farmer or speak for their experience any more than I do for somebody living on benefits or a woman who's teaching in a primary school. My experience is quite different.

And I wish politicians were more honest about the fact we can't really speak for other people. And that's one of the problems with democracy. It pretends that we can somehow speak for other people. More from Rory Stewart in a couple of moments time. We'll talk about what the solutions to all of this might be. I would just like to read that particular passage because I thought it was so lovely so here we go I entered England and this constituency over the great stone bridge by Longtown and spent much of that morning asleep beneath a hawthorn hedge strengthened by a bacon

butty bought from a van oops my computer's just gone. Oh no. I was in joy. I was absolutely transported. It's when you said bacon butty. Oh, technology. It just lets you down, doesn't it? No, it's all right. I've got it on paper. Thank goodness for that. Strengthened by a bacon butty bought from a van, I continued across the heavy clay fields of the Cumberland Plain, trespassing on the gardens of a frontier castle, and then followed the Eden River along a bright-watered gorge whose sandstone cliffs were smooth as clay on a wheel. I encountered little except a hazel coppice and a kingfisher. Do you know what?

This is the stuff that the listeners want to hear. It's Rory Stewart saying, do I look a bit like Rod Stewart? And you don't, actually. Well, we were just hearing him. We were just suggesting that my book's going to sell very well at Christmas a bit like Rod Stewart. And you don't, actually. Well, we were just hearing him. We were just suggesting that my book's going to sell very well at Christmas because people are going to buy it thinking it's about Rod Stewart. I'm here to tell you it will sell, so don't you worry.

Don't you lose a moment's sleep. But I just wonder whether confused people entering the bookshop near the festive period, I can't believe I'm already talking about that, with a little bit blurry eyes, will think, oh, Rod Stewart's written a book, and buy it. It would be good for me. I'm encouraging that. Do you little bit blurry eyes. We'll think, oh, Rod Stewart's written a book and buy it. It'd be good for me. Yeah, it would be.

I'm encouraging that, yeah. Do you honestly think that anybody would think that Rod Stewart had written a book called Politics on the Edge, a memoir from within? Look, people buy in a rush, don't they, at that time of year? Yes. I'm sure they do. I'm sure that's why my parents called me Rod Stewart

in the hope that this might happen. Yeah, there we go. And it's now coming true. Your full name has one of those names that I didn't recognise in it. Have you got a Nugent or something in there somewhere? Is that an old family name? Isn't it

a bit ridiculous actually? And I think you'll probably agree with me here so I don't know why I'm asking the question. But that both you and your nemesis, Mr Johnson, went to the same school. I mean, doesn't that actually tell you everything that's wrong with Britain? It tells you something that's wrong with Britain, Mr. Johnson, went to the same school. I mean, doesn't that actually tell you everything that's wrong with Britain? It tells you something that's wrong with Britain, definitely. It tells you something that's wrong with Britain. You wouldn't send your own children there, would you?

I might do, yeah. I might do. Why? Because I had a very, very, for somebody like me, who was quite a bright, studious boy, I found it a real privilege to be able to study medieval history in small classes, to have incredibly impressive teachers and be able to spend a lot of time talking about ideas. I think a lot of people will be disheartened by that response, which, of course, I should say, is honest, which, you know, I wouldn't necessarily get from someone who'd muddied the political waters by their presence over the years. But it is, I think, to a lot of people, just plain ridiculous that that one educational establishment has such a stranglehold over our public life, not just in politics, but everywhere you look almost. And not just Eton, but Oxford too, I think people underestimate. But you went there as well, didn't you?

Yeah. They underestimate the extent to which Oxford dominates. I mean, all these people. I think Ed Balls, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, I think, went to Cambridge. But essentially the whole thing... Maverick Nick. Essentially the whole British politics

is dominated by people who particularly went to those universities and a much larger proportion of the population, much larger than the population went to private schools. To change that, we have to change a lot of things. I mean, it's not going to happen just by pointing it out. Where did Alastair Campbell go? Alastair Campbell went to a grammar school, something he's always denying, but we caught him out because he'd been very proud.

He was saying, you know, I went to the same school as Gary Lineker. And then Gary said, yeah, the great grammar school. And Alastair went, I didn't go to a grammar school. Gary went, it was a grammar school. And anyway, we finally found out he went to a grammar school. Your podcast is hugely successful. It's the most successful political speech podcast, actually, in the country. The rest is politics, which you do with Alastair Campbell.

You don't really meet very often, do you? You're often remote. But how would you describe your relationship with him? And I know, Rory Stewart, that you were annoyed that a colleague of ours had asked this question. A close friend of yours yeah and you'd said you know maybe you got on so well and the chemistry was there because it was a daddy thing were you annoyed that you had said that out loud or are you annoyed that you'd said it at all no Alistair was annoyed about that bit he didn't like the daddy bit very protective of you actually in a rather fatherly way I have to say he was annoyed by that

it was the fascinating thing. I mean, you're a journalist and she's a very good friend of yours. But one of the things that she said when she was coming back to me is that I didn't like the article because she'd held up a mirror to me. And I think it's something in that. But I also think that journalists need to be realistic about that. It's a mirror, but it's a fun, fair mirror. It's a mirror distorted by the person who's recording you. It's a mirror distorted by the person who's recording you.

The idea that anyone can think that you can capture another human being as exactly as a mirror, I think, is a problem. Yeah, but I think a lot of people, and you can absolutely take us up on that, and there's nothing they can do about this interview, by the way, because it's going out live. It's the joy of radio. Absolutely, it's the joy of radio. Is that in Janice's interview with you and feature about you, there was the hint, more than a hint,

that perhaps the views of women were not always something you took a particular interest in. In fact, there were times when you took almost no interest at all in the views of women. And I listen to the rest is politics and I enjoy it. And sometimes you enrage me, as does Alistair Campbell. But that's not the problem. I'm still listening. It's the fact that you often you'll go

an entire podcast without mentioning a woman, unless it's Margaret Thatcher or occasionally Theresa May. And it's that they are that I think that's just something that certainly boils my, my blood from time to time. And I suspect it probably angers a lot of other female listeners too. And actually, I'm going to get to the end of this question in a moment. It's the fact that women are prepared to listen to a podcast involving two men, when I suspect very few men will listen, with some honourable exceptions, to two women talking on a podcast. You think you don't have any men listen to you?

No, we do. We have many great men who listen to us. But there is a difference. Actually, and they, fair play to them, they quite often make a joke about that. So we used to have this running gag, you know, it's male listener number 63. And, you know, the next week it would be male listener number 65. Because we don't actually expect to have a huge male audience.

But do you expect to have a big female audience? I don't think I've got any expectations on audience at all. Are you upset that you've made Jane Garvey's blood boil? No, because I still listen. He's the winner. Do you feel it was a fair criticism? So I think the criticism that we don't talk enough about women is very fair. We should talk more about women.

I think the... Look, it's a very interesting thing, this, that, you know, I'm being a bit cheeky here, but your friend's response to me was that I was being thin-skinned. But as soon as I criticised the article, I felt she was quite thin-skinned too. I think we're all quite thin-skinned. I'll take that, yeah.

V, you're not. No, I'm very thick-skinned. And blunt. So do you have any questions you'd like to ask us? Because that was one of Janice Turner's criticisms, wasn't it? I never ask any questions. Yeah, I would like to ask. You can ask us anything you like, seriously.

Absolutely anything at all. Okay. Do you know what Keir Starmer's economic policy is? Well, I'm not sure he does. Never mind me. What do you think about that, V? I think what she said. Well, actually, let's just, you've asked us a question. Do you think Labour will easily win the next election? Yes. And any idea on majority? I mean, can we get

something a bit closer? I think they're going to have to develop a bolder platform to get a really big majority. And I think the thing that makes me sad is that they do feel like a kind of Abba Live tribute act to Tony Blair, and that they need to recognise that the 90s and 2000s were not that great. They weren't that great. And we need a vision for a different world in the future. And in all honesty, is he in a position to reveal his economic policy? Could he dare to do that? I think he probably can't, because the truth is that... You know, the Conservative government, for example,

is facing an NHS in crisis. Public funding is clearly not sufficient. Everything's creaking, sometimes much worse than creaking, fatal. But would you like to guess, here's another question for you, what percentage additional of GDP of the national income we're going to be spending on health within 10 years just because of this NHS transformation plan? So the government announced the NHS transformation plan.

As people age and everything else. What percentage? I'm going to go 15. Oh, that's good for, I think, an overall figure. But just that plan was 2%. 2% GDP, just the new government's announcement, which is bigger than our entire defence budget, and that's the Tories.

So the question is, what's Labour supposed to do when they come in? They can't promise more money because the Conservatives already committed it. Rory Stewart's book is out this Thursday. It's called Politics on the Edge and it is a very detailed account

of one man's journey into Westminster and out the other side. Yes, but I wonder whether his journey might take him back there. What do you think? Well, I think he has recently said, hasn't he, that he'd be quite interested in a role as a mayor because in particular with andy burnham

he can see a freedom and independence uh outside of westminster uh for andy and hopefully he thinks for rory uh that would allow him to be who he wants to be in politics. And of course, it wouldn't because so many things have come to him. And I think I don't know because I haven't read the book because I was on holiday. But she said just to get her excuses in for sounding like someone who's just my dog has eaten the homework. Yes, Miss, it'll be in on Thursday. But he does he check his own privilege?

Yes, he does. He does. OK, so he does. But he's check his own privilege? Yes, he does. He does, okay. So he does, but he's also not, do you know what he's not doing? He's not trying to hide it. And you know sometimes politicians are where they want to slightly kind of change their accent or not accentuate their private education

or whatever it is. No, no, he's totally up front. Yeah, and when you asked him that question about whether or not he'd sent his kids to Eton, he was just very honest, you know, I might. It taught me this, it taught me that. But it also taught Boris Johnson. Yes, and David Cameron.

Well, and taught them to be... I mean, I'm not lumping David Cameron in the same basket as Mr Johnson, but it taught them, taught Boris Johnson, all the blustering entitlement that Rory Stewart hates so much. I don't know. I find it all very complicated. And slightly irritating. Hmm.

Yeah, I don't, I just don't understand the product of eating. I don't understand why as a parent you'd think, yeah, all my kids are terrible. Well, that's kind of what I mean, yes. Yeah, I'm with you. I don't understand the product of Eton. I don't understand why, as a parent, you'd think, yeah, my kids are terrible. Well, that's kind of what I mean, yes. I'm with you. I'm with you on that, sister. Well, I think we can probably safely say that my children have left school and you are not going to be sending yours to Eton, so we're OK there. We are OK, yes.

But if Eton want to book us for a talk, because they have lots of celebrities in there, don't they? Well, wouldn't that be fun? We're micro-celebrities, so we'll certainly go along for the right money. What will we be introduced as? Who are two whinging ladies? Who are two whinging battle-axes? The sort of women you'll want to avoid in later life. Right, I laughed a bit too readily there. In a slightly filthy way.

It's lovely to have you back, Jane Garvey. Thanks very much, Fiona Glover. It's actually genuinely lovely to be here. I've missed everybody. Have you? Because you're so funny. Your greeting in the office this afternoon really wouldn't have conveyed that at all. What did I say? Do you remember what your opening line was?

To me? No. What was it? Have you decided to like me any better? Well, yeah, but that was... Right. Join us tomorrow. Why you would, I don't know. And let us know what you think about Rory Stewart

because I think he might be the sort of person who divides people, but I don't know. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Have a very good evening or whatever it is you're having. Goodbye. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio.

It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener.