Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Thinking bidet positive (with Tom Allen)

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Happy Thursday! Feel free to suck the goodness out of this episode and spit the rest into a napkin. Jane Pongo Garvey and Fi chat manned petrol pumps, maternity, the longevity of baths, and The National Trust. Plus, comedian Tom Allen joins to discuss gardening and his new podcast 'Pottering with Tom Allen'. Please get your thoughts in for book club! We will be recording it next week.You can listen to our 'I've got the house to myself' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2MkG0A4kkX74TJuVKUPAuJIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I listen to you before falling asleep if I should nod off before the end. I catch up the following morning. Wake up, Jane! You're driving! This long as you don't say something terrible. Welcome to the podcast. This is off-air with Jane Fee. If you're a new listener, What could we say to anyone is a new listener?

Well, just give it a go. I mean, it's a little bit like when you're trying to introduce vegetables to a toddler. And I think doesn't the rule book says, or the book of experience says you've got to test the, you've got to put it in front of them 14 times before they'll eat it. And I would take the same kind of approach to this. I wouldn't, don't spit it out right away. Give a couple more rather tangled and tattie meal times. And then you might find.

a little bit of familiarity and comfort. Most people fall asleep to us. Suck the goodness out of it and then you can just spit it into a napkin. Right. This is off-air with Jane Fee which encompasses any number of different cul-de-sacs, boulevards, highways to hell and other places. And next week, Patty Smith's book,

what's it called again? Just Kids. Just Kids. We are going to do the book club next week. In fact, we're recording it on Budget Day and we'll make it available later that week. Yeah, we do have for new listeners an informal book club which convenes about four or five times a year

and we look at a book that isn't currently in the charts. That's right, isn't it? Yeah, by USP it's a book that might have passed you by and you think it's worth returning to and we've done all kinds of genres and we settled on biography for this one because we haven't done a memoir before

and we've had mixed reviews as we like to say in local radio. It had a mixed reaction, which means you get a voxpot where somebody says, I hate the bypass, and then somebody says, I cannot wait for the bypass, and then someone goes, what is a bypass? And then you can

broadcast it because you've got every, yes, you've got every range of it. So, absolutely perfect. Yes. I did use to struggle a bit with, in our early, early broadcasting days, we were both local radio reporters, new listener. I've got this new listener in my mind here.

And I worked the street, the pounding, I pounded the streets of Herefordshire and Worcestershire. And it was often very difficult to get people to take part in a boxpop in that part of the world because people are just not naturally gregarious. I have heard tell that in, for example, the north-west city of Liverpool, people will see somebody with a microphone and simply grab it to say what you want to ask me. And there are differences, aren't there, as we traverse the land. Not everybody does think that everybody else would like to hear their opinion.

That's been my experience anyway. Very much so. And not everybody wants to tell the BBC things as well, which I often found too. Humberside was my most difficult fox pop patch. But aside from anything else, I was there during the winter months because we were sent on a kind of tour of duty

around the regions after we'd finished our training, loose term, in London. And I think I went to Radio Humberside kind of between November and February. And it was just so cold and windy. I mean, it's a biting, biting north wind. in Hull, you know, standing around in the precinct asking people to stop for an extra five minutes

to tell you their thoughts about whatever council objective had turned into an invective. It never really went down very well. No. There is a particular wind in that part of the world, isn't that? Actually, vaguely that reminds me it really shouldn't have Shetland last night. Did you see it? It does look as though the avuncular bearded policeman who hasn't had...

No, no, don't. Don't. Don't. Don't, don't, no spoilers. No, but could... No, no. I can't believe it. Billy? Yes, who just used to make calls and make tea. Now it looks as though. No, don't go there.

Okay, right. Don't go there. Anyway, but I share your raised eyebrows. I was astonished. And I did think, okay, just hum loudly to yourself or fast forward a minute. I did think if that were to be the case, Jane, it reeks of somebody not having... anywhere else to go with the script and the plot. Yeah, maybe there. Because these stories

are no longer written by the wonderful Angleaves. They're just, they're going somewhere. And also, I did wonder, is there a different retirement age for police officers on Shetland? Because I think he's in... He's going strong in his 60s, maybe 70s. I think he might be in his 70s. Anyway, look, we don't know.

Eve has reminded us to say, we need what? We need your reflections on Patty Smith's memoir, Just Kids. And even if it's just a kind of one-liner, if you did read it, if you read it and loved it, if you just put it down after a chapter, we would love to incorporate those in the book club.

Laura Hackett is going to join us. She is the Deputy Literary Editor of the Times and the Sunday Times. There isn't a book she hasn't read. She is astonishingly well read, isn't she? And she's not, I think she might be possibly in her late 20s. She doesn't seem to be any older than that. Sometimes I do marvel at the erudition of some of the people who work here.

They're just very accomplished intellectually. in a way that, you know, I've got a, what you might call, a lively inquisitive nature, but I'm not an intellectual. I think the speed... Could you contradict me there, please? No, I did feel there was some... Because everybody listening to the podcast knows exactly who you are and is listening to the podcast for that.

But I think, I think there's... I mean, there's value in all sorts of intellectual capacity, isn't there? Yes. I think it's just incredibly... Would it be fair? to say that you still, even though we've tried to, you still can't really celebrate low-brow culture. There is still a hierarchy of culture, isn't there, in this country?

Massively, massively so. There's a real snooty element about our approach to culture, definitely. And I think never more so than in books, because if you look across the bestseller lists and then you look across the prize lists or whatever it is that is being celebrated in the review sections of big newspapers, there is just no crossover.

it's weird so that kind of popularity I think is allowed in films it's allowed on TV I might be wrong it's just something that I feel so that that kind of intellectual bar is still there and it's still high can I just say I saw the last three minutes of EastEnders last night I did think oh god this is not for me what happened in the last few minutes somebody something to do with the slaters I'm still going I know they are and is it what's his name the guy who played the comedian

what's his name Alfie Moon Alfie Moon is that him Alfie Moon Oh I don't know Anyway The Cats later was there And there was some issue

Around the dinner table I'm going to say Shane That's it Him Him Yeah yeah Do we know his surname Richie

That's it Oh my God Anyway There's your intellectual There's your intellectual content Let's welcome Just can I say just one tiny, tiny thing, just back on books. I do wonder how it feels if you are a multi-multy million best-selling novelist or crime writer or whatever it is.

Very good. But do you feel that intellectual snobbery or is, I mean, there must be some satisfaction to know that actually one of the reasons why you might not feel it is because you own France now. But does it sting a bit? I think it's cleverer to write a book that loads and those of people like than a very clever book that nobody likes it. I mean, it's not easy to maintain a chateau. There's all kinds of things you have to do to keep it. Say chateau again, that was great.

Shattel. Chateau. Shatow. Actually, they bit the dust, didn't they? The chateau couple. The chateau couple. What, over on the Channel 4? Yeah, I think they were a bit shouty.

Shall we just do a very, very quick insight into our very glamorous chobers world? Yes. So what did we do? after the radio program yesterday by the way you can listen to us on Times Radio and we do discuss the news we need to we do news on Times Radio

2 till 4 Monday to Thursday and it's been a very newsy couple of years since we've been here oh Lord so we ride the crest of the news wave between those hours in the afternoon you can just open a packet of hobnobbs and settle down with us at 2 o'clock and the Times Radio app is free

but after the program yesterday what did we do we went to Wix. We went to Wix. We went to Wix in seven sisters in North, North London, North London. Very North London. In Tottenham Hale. Right. And we went to Wix because the afternoon show is currently being sponsored by Wix, experts in kitchens and bathrooms. So we went along and it was a very, very windy, very cold night. And I don't think that the lovely people for Wix would mind us saying that you know, by the time we got on the Victoria line, we were a bit like, oh gosh, we're tired. what's going to happen to us.

And then we got Twix and they were so lovely. They showed us all around kitchens. And you and I, by the end of it, I think they wanted us to go. Well, the thing is, yes. He was still like, no, I've got questions about worktops. It ended up with us being absolutely fascinated, genuinely. They were really nice.

And we'd like to thank everybody we met yesterday, because particularly Kostas. Costas was the, he was the kitchen expert, who they'd lined up for us to spend time with. And he was such a nice chap. And somebody who genuinely delighted in his, his job, helping people get different, better kitchens and bathrooms. He was lovely.

And he works very, very hard for Wix, but he does it with a certain amount of enthusiasm. And I think pride in his work. And pride, absolutely. And we, do you know what really upset me is that the bath appears to be just fading from popularity in a way that I find really depressing? Why? Because I don't get your bathing. I mean, I like a bath, but the idea that I'd go several times a day to just go and sit in my own juice. I'm with the shower brigade

Some people call it bum juice in the bath, don't they? I don't, I don't. But I just have. I know I hear you, but I have to have a bath every day and sometimes too. Obviously it would have to be a day I think with particular stress in it

to have two at the moment but just one is an essential for me and a shower does not cut the mustard and I don't understand what has happened in our national psyche that baths appear to be falling so much out of favour. I just don't get it. Well, they cost more, don't they?

So people are keeping eye on their energy costs at the moment. Filling up a great big bath takes much longer than a shower. I think people are environmentally aware. A great big bucket of water is not particularly good. And also it's just not very hygienic. It's not as hygienic as washing away all of your troubles and cares and juices and then stepping out of the shower clean. Is that why I'm known as joking?

Pongue Garvey. Yes. It is. It's like, okay, I've always wondered why... It's why you always get a seat on the tube. Look at you. It's true. And what else did we learn yesterday? The B-Day is making another...

You know, it's trying to make a breakthrough in the UK. Oh, I love a B-D-Day. Well, it's never really taken off, but it does appear that now the great British public are thinking B-Day positive. Well, again, that's about hygiene, isn't it? I think that's a nice turn to take. It's so overrated. Hygiene.

Yeah, forget it. Just, you know, get in the bath, a bit of cologne, head off to work. Oh, dear. Yeah, but it is interesting. Anyway, we could have spent hours there as it happened in the end. We didn't because everybody needed to get home.

But thank you to everybody we met last night. Much, much, much enjoyed. And I went home on the bus with my little brochures and I'd had no intention of even considering. either a new kitchen or a bathroom before I went to Wixen now I'm thinking actually I think I might oh everybody at home will be very very delighted with that I do like that some of their tile combinations Jane they're very very nice we had fun with their little I've got a great little thing where you can combine a top topping what do you call it a surface work top a work top a top a door and a handle put them together yourself and then create your own kitchen experience honestly hours of fun right that's enough about wicks and do you know what we won't even pay to say all of that so we've done it entirely of our own volition right what are we going to talk about next mammograms with the boob buddy

long time listener carla comes in with this two years ago i was talking to a friend we shared that we were both overdue our mammograms and we're putting it off after previous painful experiences we agreed action was needed we became boob buddies we said a time to call the hospital and book the appointment, check with each other, we're done it, set alarms to message each other with encouragement. Two weeks later, we'd both been squashed and got the all-clear another two weeks later. Women supporting each other pretty good. What a lovely idea. Good idea. If you are remotely put off the notion of a mammogram, yeah, go with a friend. Just do it on the same day. Why not? Keep each other company throughout the process. This is from Ruth, writing him with a recent

experience of tongue tie following your reference to the issue of the back of a previous listener's email. My daughter was born in May and she was discharged from hospital where we were told that she didn't have a problem. Following though excruciating difficulty with feeding for a couple of weeks, our fantastic local authority infant feeding team assessed her and confirmed that she had a posterior tongue tie. Now they are apparently harder to pick up in newborns than the anterior version. So I would definitely encourage other listeners experiencing any problems with breastfeeding to lean on their local infant feeding team and advocate for another assessment, even if they've been told in those early days that their baby doesn't have one. Once confirmed, as ever, the NHS

did its wonderful thing and we were seen and sorted relatively quickly. Ruth says I'm an Aussie and now a UK citizen of nearly a decade. I can only praise the NHS, though I think, your own advocate can be the determining factor between a good and a just satisfactory experience. I do think that is interesting, probably a very accurate observation, actually, Ruth. But she does say as well that she had terrible anxiety in her pregnancy. And the podcast got her through. Well, I'm really glad about that, quieting any intrusive thoughts and stopping me from filling the silence with catastrophe thinking.

Ruth, that does sound tough. I'm glad you're through that. congratulations to you and have a lovely it's a first Christmas with your daughter so have an absolutely wonderful time

and there's a weird thing about pregnancy isn't there there so many hormonal changes you go through I'm amazed that anybody can stay calm right the way through but that catastrophic thinking I think isn't disgust enough

and some of it for me was just about that feeling that you couldn't there's a great sketch wasn't there on Smack the Pony where there's a very very pregnant woman and he just keeps wanting to take a bump off and put it down somewhere for a while.

And there is that feeling. You know, I'd just quite like to, apart from anything else, have a good night's sleep. I quite like to take this huge thing off. I'm very happy to be pregnant, but just for half an hour, just put it over there. So I think your thoughts are a bit like that,

aren't they? You cannot kind of push them away. So I really understand your description of your head, and there's so much coming at you. It is a monumental undertaking. It is a big thing, Jay. is a very big thing.

So you're allowed to be a little tense about it. Yeah. But as we always say, it's all worth it. Well, yes, we hope so. But we have also, you know, discussed the fact that for some people, that kind of thinking doesn't go away when you have the baby. It's not a given. It's not perfect.

Let's not say that there's a sunlit upland coming around every single corner, just in case there isn't. But yes, we are very, very glad if this. just relieved your thoughts for half an hour or so. And just let you, you know, as Fies just said, you're not alone. I think practically every woman who's been pregnant will be prepared to acknowledge that it was really tough and they did have dark thoughts.

Yes. And at times, and also they can pass, maybe they don't pass, maybe you need to talk to somebody. Yep, there's all colours going on in that spectrum. Cut yourself some slack. Yep. Service at petrol stations. This one comes in from Jane. This is helpful to you, Eve. you park up.

Congratulations to Eve on passing her. Just wake up, Eve. What a great feeling of independence it gives you. I wanted to comment that here in Palma de Mallorca, we still enjoy the attendance filling up the car at petrol stations. Not all the petrol stations on the island offered this service, but in the city the majority do. Long may this go on.

The podcast is great. It's my nightly ritual. I listen to you before falling asleep. If I should nod off before the end, I catch up the following morning. Wake up, James! I'm sorry. You're driving! Sorry, Jane.

Well, I mean, it's one of the many things that is wonderful about Parliament of Mallorca. And the petrol station thing, we had another email about it too, don't we? Do you want to do that on? Because I think it raises a good point about the jobs that we're losing. This is from a gentleman listener called Andy.

Congratulations to Eve on passing a test. Has any woman? and had so much attention for passing a drive. Good Lord. You may be interested to know that we have a municipal bylaw in our corner of the Greater Vancouver area that insists that petrol pumps

have got to be manned by attendance. They're not all male and it's quite odd but also nice not to have to leave your car to fill up. The prices here are exactly the same as in the neighbouring municipalities that do not have the same law. Sorry, I don't know why that was so tricky.

I've been told that the rationale is to provide local employment. It makes sense to me. Also, my wife informs me that filling up with gas, petrol, even using an attendant, is solely a male task, according to her interpretation of traditional gender roles. I suspect I may be being sold a pop on this issue, but I don't argue the point. So Andy's wife tells him that this is something that a man needs to do.

I think she's got you over a barrel there, she just doesn't fancy doing it if she wants to stay in the warmer car. When you go to the different municipality. Yeah, exactly. Obviously, we are being somewhat tested in the UK this week. It's a little chilly, but nothing to what you must get in your part of the world. No. I imagine it's already really cold there.

Andy, thank you for that. How interesting. I mean, you can't, I mean, it's a bit like the old Soviet Union where there was a job for everybody, but lots of those jobs didn't really need doing. Do you remember, did you go to the Hermitage in St. Petersburg? Yes. And there would be any number of babushkas. with tickets.

You had to buy a ticket. There were people just doing jobs that clearly didn't need to be done but had given somebody a role. And that was the way the Soviet Union rolled. I think it's still the way the National Trust rolls. I'm joking.

It's a marvelous institution. Taking on the National Trust now. God, no, I'm not going to. I'm not going to. But I think we should be having more of a conversation about this with the monster that is AI rolling over the horizon

because so many jobs are already being taken by AI there's a feeling of panic about what it is that we should be asking our young people to train as and to be and to have knowledge about because nobody really knows whether there will be any point to them having that knowledge

at the end because there might not be any jobs but there doesn't seem to be a really decent conversation about the role that the government should play physically in this. So I get all the stuff about regulation and whatever. But actually giving an incentive to companies to keep some jobs available and maybe subsidising those jobs, I think, would be quite helpful, Jane. And surely there's a big spreadsheet somewhere that says it is worth just paying those wages.

Yeah, okay. Rather than the cost that there will be to the state if a whole generation of young people can't work. It's not because they don't want to or they're not skilled They can't work They can't, they just aren't the jobs It would be I mean you would have thought

filling a car Would be something that a relatively compliant robot could do No that's and that's the point Yeah But already everything is just so Automatic It drives me bonkers There's one of those

Let's just call them a A Japanese fast food outlet Just on our way into work That you often get your lunch from And it now only has staff working in the kitchens and handing out the soup because you just go in and you do those bored things and it just puts me off going in there i just don't i don't want my entire lunch service to be automated and i know that in japan where that kind of automation happened

a while back they they have such an epidemic of loneliness amongst young people because they can just go for whole weeks without proper interaction and the petrol pump attendants is a good thing. It used to be a small chat with somebody. It gave somebody, you know, probably someone who wasn't entertaining the thought of going to university or doing a law conversion course, the opportunity to work. I just think, I just think we need to talk about this a bit more. Well, it's essentially, we had an email, forgive me, I haven't got it with me now, about hospital wards saying that one of the sadnesses that they'd witnessed is that so many patients now bring in their own bits of kit, an iPad or whatever it is, that there's much less

interaction between the patients than there used to be because in those old school very big airy nightingale wards where you might have I don't know maybe eight nine beds each side of the of the room okay privacy perhaps went for a button in certain circumstances but if you were on the road to recovery and doing okay there was a fantastic option to interact with other people to be around other people just to see other people and now you know everybody's got their earbuds in even on that level and in that situation

we're losing interaction with others and I do think it is really, really sad we do have to... You're right, we have to ask a lot more about this

where it's taking us Yeah, I mean it's definitely not taking us in a very healthy direction and I'm pretty sure that if I was starting out if I was in my 20s now I would be so much more

optimistic about my future if I knew that I could go and do a manual job and entertain my humanities thing-a-jiggy on the side, because you know, you and I both did humanities degrees. I loved my subject. I just wouldn't have been able to do physics, chemistry, or, you know, the digitisation of geography or whatever it is. I wouldn't have been able to do that, so I did my humanities degree. I completely get that the world doesn't need another philosopher or classical civilization specialists. But actually, if I'd known that society respected all manner of jobs because I think our kids will have to have two or three jobs

all at once or across their lifetime. I think it would stop me feeling perilously close to depressed and I don't know how as a young person when you're taking on your 70,000 pounds of debt and you've done your degree and you come out and you can't even pump petrol. I just think we're wrong on that, really, really wrong. Well, as you speak, and I'm not disagreeing with a word of it, Sky News is just reporting on this interstellar comet. Don't worry about anything. I'm not sure. Which I think at least one relatively rogue US astrophysicist or astronomer

believes might be something sinister, but NASA being very, I saw something else about this earlier today. They just want to calm our nerves. It's a comet, okay? It's a comet from another solar system. I feel sorry for Eve. She's putting all of that work on her driving test. I know. And it just hasn't even been on a dual carriage while yet.

Oh dear, who's the guest today, by the way? It's Tom Allen. Yes, and he's going to be good. So we want to live you a bit of time for him. But we're so interested in this whole language and bilingual thing. But yes, bien sure. Very bien. Claire says, lovely to hear about you talking about language.

Let me just start that again. I can't even speak in my own language. So lovely to hear you talking about language learning and being bilingual. I have been bilingual with French all my life. These days, English is by far my stronger language, despite French having been my first, but I still count in French and do anything related to mental arithmetic in French, as I learn my times tables at a French-speaking school in Brussels. I also sometimes let Zoot escape.

It's such a satisfying whoops word, but I'm always mildly embarrassed, as I know that Zootalore is such a stereotype. I might as well be wearing onions around my neck, she says. I also learned Spanish at university and do remember being proud when I woke up from my first dream in Spanish. God, I'd be, wow, I'd be so chaffed with myself if I dreamt in a foreign language. It's very sad to me, she says, that language learning is dying as it's so much fun and opens up all kinds of opportunities as well,

as you say, culture, history and literature and different ways of looking at the world. Also, while I'm here, I've downloaded the Scrabble app, but how do I find you on there? She wants to find you for you. Well, I'm just, I think my nom de plume on the scrabble is Fifi Galore. So type in Fifi Galore. And who's this from?

Claire. Claire. Okay. And if you pop up, I'll definitely give you a game. Definitely. Gosh, that name again? Fifi Galore. I don't know why either.

Do you think that the British equivalent, so if Claire's letting slip the odd Zootalore, what's the English equivalent? equivalent. Is a French person who is bilingual accidentally slipping out a... Gordon Bennett? Yeah. Or a goblummy gov. Yeah. I don't know. Possibly not. I can't remember who Gordon Bennett was. I know there was something, but yeah, I do like that. Gordon Bennett. Gordon Bennett.

Yeah. It is good. Let's find out who Gordon is. We need to do a correction, and it's important. It comes in from Eleanor who says, I couldn't resist getting in touch to correct your guest. Now this is Samantha Seekam, who was on yesterday talking about investment and women investing particularly. I couldn't resist getting in touch to correct your guest who was talking about investment around her comments on public sector defined benefit pensions. Civil servants, teachers, etc. do not have a pension fund. Central government public sector pensions are fully paid by the Treasury. It's a quirk of the system but means they are completely protected from any investment risk, not something most people know, but important info. Side note doesn't need to be

read out. Okay. Is it an interesting side note? I'm going to keep it to myself. Okay. But thank you. Those are the pensions that people often refer to as gold places. Yeah, but that is a very interesting correction to me. It is interesting. So there's no fund that you've paid into. So if invidia did burst its own bubble. And it didn't, as it happened. But when it does, there are lots of people, including our tech expert, Chris Stokel Walker, says it's almost inevitable that something like Nvidia will burst the AI bubble. You're completely protected from it. I didn't know that, Jane.

Did you know that? I think I did know that, which is why anyone who mocks a job in the public sector is a fool to do it. Because there are, I mean, not just because those are all very important and we couldn't survive without. them, but there are benefits later in life. But, you know, when you're 22, I'm not sure you really think about that, do you? Oh, I've got a gold-plained pension. I'm just not sure. And I mean, am I right in saying that that still applies? So if you were a teacher now in your 20s, you are not just a teacher, but you know what I mean? I've picked on that, because I think we've got lots of teachers listening. Are you getting one of those amazing pensions in later

life? Are you still guaranteed that? Well, let's punt that out and see. Tell us. I do remember back at the old mothership, there were definitely conversations had by people in their 20s about the BBC pension scheme. Were there? Yeah, that were definitely changing people's minds about taking other jobs or whatever because it was an incredibly valuable scheme to be part of.

And in case anyone's wondering why we're working at Times Radio, we weren't part of it. We weren't on the staff. Just to be clear about that. I mean, I don't suppose anybody is wondering, but if you were. Now, shall we end on an important logistical announcement about December the 7th? Yes, let's. This one.

Prince Edward to Paddington. It comes in from Chris, recent convert to the live afternoon show. Well, well done you, Chris. Your advice to your correspondent to use the Elizabeth line to Paddington was sound. However, the Lizzie line has an entrance on Dean Street, a mere five-minute stroll from the Prince Eddie. A train leaving from there at 9.30 and should get audience members to Paddington in six minutes,

giving them ample time to make the 950 train to head back to the sticks. I'm not saying the sticks, Chris is saying the sticks. Enjoying the fact that the agency selling tickets to your event is named after you both. And that is true. Although it's not really. The first couple of times that we did shows with Fane,

who were a lovely company, a couple of people did think that we'd done that kind of benefit, what do you call it? Portmanteau of our names. But we hadn't. No, we hadn't. set up a production company, we didn't get a BBC pension. Can you see why we're here? We're here because we love it. Well, actually, that's true. That's true. And the work is good for us,

Jay. Right. Let's bring in our guest, who I'm delighted to say, is the fantastic. He's always a little bit of a cocker warmer. It's only Tom Allen. Tom Allen loves his garden. He's got hydrangeers and a new water feature, and he would like to share with you this happy, calm place in either a YouTube viewing or his new podcast series called pottering. Hello Tom. Hello. How lovely to be here with you guys. Well, it's very nice of you to come in. We were expecting you to be wearing one of those kind of Monted-on

linen smocks. Maybe have a little trowel parked in your back pocket, a nice Labrador but look at you. Still, same old me, likely coloured suit, an orange tie and not very practical for gardening, but I do know those sort of suits you mean.

That kind of linen, deconstructed smock sort of suit. Yes. I don't know where you get those from. It looks like Windy Miller. You're not old enough to remember Windy Miller, are you? Oh, that sounds familiar, though. Is that sort of...

He kept the windmill in Camberwick Green. Oh. And whenever I see Montedon, I think of Windy Miller. Anyway, carry on. No, let's just stay on that for a while. Oh, how nice. I'd like to be in a windmill like Mr. Magicka. Yes.

Can we take from that? It kind of explains where you are in your gardening journey that you haven't decided to go and buy a whole wardrobe. in which to garden. Well, I do have a trug, or a trug. I never know how to say that word. It's just a truck, okay. Well, I am early on.

I'm very open about being a proud novice, and I enjoy gardening, and I'm very happy to just sort of show my failings in the garden in a bid to encourage other people to have a go as well. I think that's become a bit of a mission with me, just because I think everybody feels better for spending time outdoors. So I think in our fractured world.

Can we learn just a little bit about your own, garden and particularly your soil type. Ah, yes, that sort of thing. Grown up gardeners talk a lot about ericatious soil and things like that. Probably clay? Right, I want to say. So, yeah, I mean, so it lends itself well to growing what?

Hydrangeers. Beautiful. And... Thank God he didn't just say plants. Oh, yeah, no, one up from that. Yeah, grass. That seems to do well. Does it, good. I've been pretty pleased with everything. I've struggled with my ACA though this year, as I think a lot of people probably have.

mine got a bit scorched and I think all the leaves went a bit crispy like they'd been deep fat fried and then now it just looks like a twig in the middle of the bed but I'm not sure people say it might come back so I don't know like Lazarus maybe my history will come back

Is it just simply not possible for you to ever say anything without it sounding like a dublo entendre I would I'm trying to think of a duble entendre to respond with now but I can't think of one but I'm So, no, it's not possible, I'm afraid.

Well, I like it, so let's just stick with it. Your connection to gardening, though, is quite a lovely one because it's also a connection to your dad, isn't it? Well, yes, my dad always liked growing vegetables because he was a product of the Second World War, really. He was born in 1941, and a time when people, I think, did more often grow their own vegetables, so whether it was potatoes or runner beans.

So he kind of tried to impart that on me, and most of the time I didn't listen to him, And then when he died, I thought, oh, that would be a good thing to do to sort of remember him. And also, I don't know if anybody here has found that. When you lose somebody, people go, oh, take time for yourself. Take time to grieve. But in truth, there's not really any time to do that, is there? Because you have to go to work and you have to sort of get on with things.

So the gardening stuff I've made time to do was sort of the only time I had to think. Also, I think it's just incredibly useful to carry on doing things that keep you busy if you're doing something with your hands. Because you're absolutely right. People say, take some time out, don't come back to work. But you don't want to just sit in a house with your thoughts, do you? No way. I don't want that at the best of times. Never mind at a sad time.

So being busy. And there's something great actually about getting your hands dirty, I realised. As somebody with quite, as you can imagine, quite soft hands. Well, moisturised hands. I'm never far away from a canister of hand cream. I like actually just doing things with my hands. rather than a shovel or anything, I'd just like to scrap around in the mud.

And there's something very pleasing about it, actually. It's supposed to be good for you, isn't it? You have got a huge ornamental... It looks to me like a gigantic urn or trophy. Thank you for noticing. Yes, it's huge, Tom. I mean, but I've only got the image in some publication called the Daily Telegraph.

Ah. And I didn't bring that with me. No, that's okay. I didn't bring that with me here in a sort of protest. You have that, do you, in the middle of your lawn? Just describe it. I have an enormous urn in the middle of my lawn. There, I've said it.

You can have that as an exclusive. And I bought it online and I did not measure how big it was and I thought it would be a normal size and it arrived. And you know what? We went on a tour of Buckingham Palace last year. Their urns, same size. Okay, how big is it? Well, I don't know. What do you want to have it in comparison with?

You? It's bigger than me. No. It does look enormous. It is enormous. and it sort of created a kind of makes the garden look a bit more like it's in Versailles, you know, or maybe that it's some sort of Parisian cemetery of some kind. That's the vibe it now has rather than a polite suburban garden,

which is what I started out with. But when I first got it, and this is a good metaphor for life, isn't it? At first I thought, this looks ridiculous. But as time's gone on, it's blended in quite perfectly. I tell you what, Tom, you've got yourself a talking point, haven't you? Well, that's the thing and that's what you want. A lot of people seem to think it's where they say, have you got loved ones? ashes in that urn and I think people maybe misunderstand not to be morbid on a grey on a

grey November day but but that would be a lot of ashes it would be a big person your whole family yeah all mixed up oh let's not go there no that's not so you're using gardening as a method to communicate with an awful lot of people because it's a podcast now this gardening it is it is I took my restful thing and I turned it into something stressful and lucrative and hugely lucrative let me tell you absolutely

no I did it because I wanted to do something that I did off my own back and I think the online sphere does permit that so I decided to invest in making something myself and just invited my friends in to have a chat in the garden sometimes they know a lot about gardening Giovanna Fletcher was on the other day

she knows loads sometimes they know nothing James Acaster for example is on this week's episode knows pretty much nothing But does it help to help the conversation along? Well, that's what I found. Being in nature, I think, is a good way to get to know people and to allow them to relax. And I think you get to, through the incidental conversations you have in a garden, sometimes you get the most insight, I found.

I mean, you know, hopefully not recording one at the moment because the conversation would just consist of, I'm perishing, can I go in? I mean, that would be about as much as I'd contribute, not that you've invited me on. Well, well, you'd be very welcome to come on. But I know you're always busy, of course, doing this show. Yes, of course. And also you live over the other side of London, don't you? Oh, I don't give away where I live.

It's extraordinarily exclusive. I know that that Mayfair townhouse is a long way for me. Jane, I hate to say it, but he doesn't want you on. And also I should say that I don't. I don't want. But you like gardening, don't you? No. I have got a visit from the people who maintain my garden.

Actually, first thing tomorrow morning. Oh, that's exciting. Well, it is because it is such a mess at the moment. And I live in between two incredibly neat gardens in my streets. where clearly the owners of those houses have spent quite a lot of money on making them look fabulous. So you letting the street down? Well, I absolutely am.

Plus, Tom, I've got artificial grass. No, Jane, really? Well, I have a source of fee. No fee. I do. What's the point of being on Times Radio if you're going to do things like that? It's nothing sacred in this country anymore.

I'm looking at proper turf. Now we've been here four years. I think we can just about afford it. But I tell you what, in a small town garden with a north-facing garden, there's no point trying a lawn. It just didn't work. Well, what about a bit of gravel or something like that?

Gravel with kids. No, absolutely. No, I don't have enough money for the first aid that would be needed. What were then toddlers and gravel when we first moved in. So what do you do with your... It is. Well, I imagine this is the sort of incidental thing that your listeners adore. But the maintenance of something like that, what do you do, hoover it?

Yeah, well, tomorrow, for example, my gardens will get the big blower out and we'll just suck up all the leaves. Please, don't start talking to me about euphemisms when you say things like that. No, it's just a simple fact. It's not a euphemism. It's just what's going to happen in my back garden tomorrow morning. I have to say, actually, I have got rid of my astro turf now

and I've replaced it with hard standing. Oh, what's that? Great big paving stones. Well, that's better. I guess it's more of a natural material. Well, I guess so. Look, I think we do... Do you have to rake the leaves in?

Do you have to rake the leaves in at all? Or do you... I just did it. I just got a great big brush and then I tore a cardboard box in half because actually picking up leaves with your hands, even with gloves on. It's just so arduous.

It does take a bit of time. But if you get two great big signs of a cardboard box, you can shoot them in together. The thing is with leaves, though, people are quite afraid of them. But actually, they mulch down quite quickly. I've learned that. There's a lot of talk about mulching I've learned amongst gardeners.

And the thing is, they mulch down quite quickly, and it benefits the soil. And I think really the thing that everyone's going to get very excited about in the next few years is soil health. So I think it's good to have a few leaves to add to it. Well, so the podcast is called. pottering. Indeed. Okay, and it's available now. I'm going to move on now to other areas of your work, Tom. Oh, I'd like that. Were you asked to do traitors, and are you keen to do the

next traitors? No, I wasn't asked, and I would like to do it. Who would you want to be a traitor or a faithful? I would probably like to be, probably a faithful, actually, because I think a traitor must be such hard work. And I think that sort of hood really wouldn't suit me either. I'm walking around with a lantern. It's always tricky. And the thing that I did love about this series was that people commented on the fact that you might be able to spot a traitor

because they'd been knackered because they have to stay up doing loads more filming after everyone else has gone to bed. I tell you what job I wouldn't like on the traitors is being responsible for marshalling them back without them seeing the other person. Do you know what to me? That must be quite arduous, I think,

to get them into their rooms without seeing anybody else or knowing who's come back late because they've been up the tower. Do you know what I mean? I've just got, I've got questions about traitors all together really. Have you? Well, because my issue with it all the way through was that I thought they were all savvy enough to realize that making, making Alan Carr a traitor would obviously be great television.

So why didn't they, were they just afraid to say it too early? Because obviously if you go too soon, that destroys your chances. Well, they're probably in the moment, aren't they? That's the thing, isn't it? They're probably in the moment so much. They didn't think to question anything. That's what I imagine. And imagine it's quite tiring.

All that stuff where you have to do an activity. Oh, that would be hard, wouldn't it? Well, I wouldn't do the tasks. You wouldn't do them? No, I'll just stay at the castle and I'll have some tea and I'll see you for the roundtable. That would be my tactic. Well, that might put them off booking you. Well, yes.

Therefore, but I don't know. I think it's because you devastated her with not booking her for pottering. She's now just saying she's not interested. I mean, to be honest, I've just asked a few friends to do it so far. So if you want to do it, you can. And I'd love to have you both down, in fact. Can we also talk about Bakeoff? Oh, absolutely.

So I've loved every single series, and I love the spinoff that you do with Joe Brand. I think it is just fantastic. Can I be controversial and say, though, that I didn't think that this year's fineless were the right ones? Oh, right. Okay, well, go on. Well, Big Tom. I didn't think he deserved to be in it, actually. Wow.

I hope he's not listening. I mean, I thought he was totally and utterly style over substance. Did you? Well, I thought, to be honest, I've never met anybody who has such strong opinions. And I work on the after show of it. But I thought he was good. I thought he was consistent and hardworking. He did some very elaborate things.

I thought his things were beautiful. But when he did the great big, sorry about this, Jane, sorry to everybody who didn't see this, but when he did the great big enormous chocolate beehive and then just basically stuck some tuck biscuits on it that were meant to be macarons, I didn't think he deserved to go through. Tom. That was a trying week, I think, for a lot of them, wasn't it? But I think I didn't think it was enough to send him home. I thought it was probably a bit

epic, wasn't it? It was probably a bit simplistic just to sort of melt down some chocolate in the shape of a beehive. But I didn't think that was a sending home, considering how well he'd done. And when you do your bake-off extra slice, and you've got this amazing microphone in the shape of a whisk. Thank you for noticing. Does that actually work? Or is that just a prop? Is it real? And we had it as a usual, as a normal size whisk, and then we had the pandemic. And so we had to be two metres apart. So we had it on a big stick. And then after the pandemic, we just sort of kept it like that.

So, you know, it's sort of a social distancing tool at one point. And all of those lovely people who come along with all baked cakes. And they're so, I mean, the whole room is basically just going, pick me, Tom, pick me Tom. They're delightful people. How do you decide? Well, we go. with the people who've definitely brought a cake and the people who've told us they're going to bring a cake

they are usually the first people we go to. And I must say as well, like, I'm always quite mean and quite, quite, what's the word, cheeky with them, but they are always very lovely people. And they, you know, they come along with these cakes that tell like a whole story about how they went on holiday and got food poisoning and then fell in a lake and all these things.

And it's quite elaborate for, you know, a bit of fond enticing. But that's kind of what's lovely about it, actually, trying and sort of learning about people through their cakes, I think it's quite an interesting exercise. The whole spin-off of a show is relatively new. I know The Apprentice has a spin-off, Bake-off has a spin-off. Traytas has a spin-off. Could there be a spin-off from a spin-off?

I'd like to think so. And if there is, I'd like to present it. But, yes, I think it's a sort of a moment to reflect. I think with a lot of those television programs, what's amazing about them is that there's still a point when people sit down as a family and watch something. So I think traitors is a great example, Bakeoff, Apprentice, Strictly.

Families still sit down and watch those things and they're a conduit to conversation. So I think the after show just sort of helps with that. Well, you said the word strictly, which of course means... Oh, what's that? Why not you, Tom? Oh, I would love to do strictly. The thing is, I think that staircase at the beginning, I'd fall down.

I think it's very stressful. Maybe you could practice. What, coming up and down the stairs? Yeah, I mean, I know you couldn't... I mean, if it's live, it's live. But you could just learn. during rehearsals, to do it adroitly. Well, you have a lot of faith in me, Jane.

I don't know. I don't, I mean, I'd like the idea of it. Also, it's a big commitment, isn't it? It's a big commitment to get all those dance steps. You've got to be very good at learning dances. No, I mean, I want you to host it. Oh, I'm sorry. Don't do it.

I'd love to do that. Because I've always loved Bruce Forsyth. Well, I mean, I'm not going to say that there are, please, I hope this isn't offensive. No, I don't think it will be. It's bound to be. No, it's not, there are, there are similarities. You have that, you have that variety show, persona, anchor man.

You're missed a Saturday night. Tom, I think you've got it. Oh, Jane, I'm glad I came in now. No, I mean it. Well, that's very generous of you to say. I always loved Bruce Horsesith when I was a kid and loved his sort of all-rounder show busyness. Yeah.

I think you'd be brilliant because also you bring an element of humour. You know, the double act that has been Claudia, and Tess has been absolutely amazing and how fantastic, apart from anything else to have two gorgeous women. Absolutely. You didn't need the man and the twirly bird anymore. No.

But it has felt quite scripted, hasn't it? And I think Claudia does a good job when she's interviewing all of the contestants and stuff, but I would love to see you go a bit rogue on the floor. Well, I think they've done a magnificent job with it, but I think it'll be fun. It'll be fun to do something like that. I mean, just the glitz of it.

And I think people do like camp glitz, don't they? like a bit of, you know, bright lights and spangly costumes and people just doing something that sort of takes you out of yourself. And it's something lovely about dance in that way. I mean, I've always loved Fred Astaire, but that's probably no surprise to you. It isn't a surprise, but honestly, I'm, well, I think you're being a little cage in. It wouldn't be at all surprising to me if you already been involved in negotiations. Oh, that's very cool. You're welcome to look through my emails.

Who are the hot favourites at the moment? You've always got your eye on the bookies, do you know? Well, there was some talk about Paddy McGuinness doing it, but I don't, I don't think so. No, thank you. No, thank you. Gosh, said like a true points of view writer-in. Well, funny, you should mention that. I was a regular on points of view.

Yes, I think I knew that. Are they, does it still run? No. That sort of programme I'd quite like to do. People moaning. It's quite... I don't think the BBC needs it at the moment. You can actually do with a period of tranquility.

A new Tom Allen would be the man I would effortlessly shoehorn into strictly and there would be no controversy whatsoever. Well, okay, well I'll go and buff my dancing shoes on that basis. Okay. If people want to hear a little bit more of you on the radio, you're available in this building. Yes.

You're right at the top of the Tower of Power, aren't you? Absolutely. At the seat of power on Virgin Radio, 10 to 1, on Sunday mornings. We have a nice time there. It's largely me playing rock music to women called Jan. Oh, Jan listens to us as well. Don't be rude about Jan.

We'd be nowhere without either. My life has been built on performing to people called Jan. Trish, a few Trish's probably. Okay. Do you have Tracy from Cambridgeshire? I love Tracy from Cambridge. Did you? Oh, she's one of our most enthusiastic supporters.

Well, Tracy, you'd be very welcome. You'd be very welcome. No, don't Nick Arles. Well, we have a nice time on there. And then pottering comes out every Thursday. And I do it as a visualised podcast. And I do it as an audio podcast. So you can either listen to it whilst you're doing other tasks.

I don't tell you what tasks you do. It might be some light dusting or something like that, or taking the dog for a walk. And then you can watch it if you like to see what we're up to. And if you want to see the garden as well, but I try and make it an audio-wise and visual-wise, a calming space. So we try to include the sounds from the garden to give people a bit of peace and quiet, even if they're having a stressful day. Lovely. Thank you, Tom.

Thank you. Errol thinks we're middle-class and clueless. I love it, though. Well, we are. We're certainly middle-class. Let's just own it. And Phil says... Not many eroles left in the world, are there?

There should be more. Phil says, I once slept in the room in which the New York air Gordon Bennett died. It was at his villa Namuna. I'm a pretty dull chap. So I trot out this fact from time to time for my interlocutors to marvel at. Wow. That's an interesting fact. And Chris says Gordon Bennett is a corruption of God in heaven or Gott in Himmel.

It's used to avoid a fence in mixed company. Sorry, I realize you're talking about something you did before I came to the studio. We actually have content before you arrived. I should have been listening. but I was actually enjoying the shelves outside in the waiting area, which are completely empty. Have you thought about putting some plants on there? Which shelves?

The shelves are waiting around there. Completely empty. And I thought, well, that's a wasted opportunity. You could have a few books or something. I know. It's an area of consternation in the building that because it falls between two program teams. Oh, okay.

We've got our eye on it. No, I think it would suit you. Yeah, so as a talk TV team and there'll be a fight. Yes, I'd like that. Oh, that'll take you back to your BBC days. Certainly will. I've still got the biceps to prove it. Tom Allen, it's been lovely. Thank you very much indeed.

I'm very grateful, thank you. Tom Allen, and his latest podcast is called pottering. I've seen him out and about in his garden, doing the little YouTube shorts and the Instagram and whatever. He's very short. No, doing Instagram shorts. You know, the short films. Oh, I see.

And offering tips. Yes, and he's just very engaging. Whatever it is he's talking about, there's something about his delivery, which just makes me chortle. He's immensely likable. Right, that's him. Whereas when David Beckham gets down in his vegetable patch,

it's just not so believable. It's just really not. Why not? What are you saying? It's Sir David to you. It is, isn't it? It's quite funny, isn't it? I don't know. I don't begrudge anybody, you know, the opportunity to have a hobby and an interest

and put your hands in the soil. But I think, as many people pointed out, quite often David Beckham's in his garden with his box fresh trainers on. Yes. It's just, how did you even get down to the bottom of your garden without those being muddy? What's that, especially, hoary-handed man of the soil?

He is not. Nevertheless. No, but he's got, he does, don't laugh at this. He's got amazing vegetables. No, he does. I didn't say that in a fruity way, he does. I'll get you on to the archers. I really, I think you'd enjoy it more than you realize.

There's a new family entered. I mean, I'm so far behind, but it's a sudden, A farmer has suddenly appeared, I've never heard of them before. And then he died instantly, and his daughter has now moved into the village. And, oh, I tell you what, the fur's flying. Right. But that's it from whatever this was. We wish you a reasonable couple of days.

Keep warm if you're in the UK. Oh, and good luck with the comet. Good luck with the comet, everybody. And, well, who knows? But we fully intend to be back here on Monday. Comets don't scare us. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times radio.

The Jeopardy is off-y. the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.