Off Air... with Jane and Fi - This interview is OVER!

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Just in case you missed these fabulous chats the first time round, we're bringing them to you again for your enjoyment... Jane and Fi speak to mother-daughter duo Andi and Miquita Oliver and comedian and writer David Baddiel. Jane and Fi will be back after the bank holiday on Tuesday the 27th. See you then!If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, welcome to Off Air. It is holiday time, but we thought, we're just so kind and generous, we thought we'd give you the opportunity to enjoy a bit of a rehash of some of genuinely the best of our content over the last year or so. Here we go. Now, they are the most successful mother and daughter showbiz combo ever. They're like Debbie Reynolds and Carrie Fisher, only with more laughs. They're British and they've got great food. Andy hosts the Great British Menu, and Makita's TV career started when she was a troubled teen, and she now co-hosts the hit podcast Miss You with her real-life best showbiz pal, Lily Allen. And together, Andy and Makita work on the podcast Stirring It Up. This is where celebrities get fed and watered at Andy's home

and then just can't help spilling all their beans. They both, that's Andy and Makita, have a ferocious work ethic. They're a great company and they both talk a lot, as you're about to hear. Andy first. I'm a bit chatty. I'm a bit chatty, a bit too chatty, probably. You know, like deliriously tired chatty.

Deliriously going, just waffling on about stuff. And she's like, stop commenting on everything. I'm like, isn't that what you're supposed to do? I thought that was... What, in life? Yeah, comment on things, have opinions and thoughts, but probably not all of them are relevant, Jane. And you are...

Are you the only person who can keep your mother in control? She can't keep me in control. I can't do that. I wish that was my role. No, I don't. Who can keep you in control? Nobody. Nanny?

Oh yeah, my mum. My mum still has the ability to go, and you're all over. And I go, yeah, like that. So you sit up. But yeah. Nanny lives with my mum now my mum and my stepdad and it's been quite interesting

because there's quite a lot of moments where I see the child in my mother because I've spent a lot of time with my nanny but not really with my nanny and my mum because I was with my nanny

a lot over summers and stuff so yeah I think that's where the child Andy comes out when Nanny says anything it doesn't even have to be turning you off she's like

Andy what's this sorry mum can I just say I think that's really interesting. So I'm nearly 60 and I'm still a child. My mum and dad are still around, which is great and interesting. And there's a different dynamic, isn't there? Yeah. Can I ask how old is your mum? My mum is 87. Right. And you're still her baby. Yes. Yes. Apparently. It would appear so. She'd be shocked. The other day she came up up behind me, and she was looking at me, giving me this look. She had her hands, she's an ex-school teacher, my mum.

She had her hands behind her back, and she was looking at me like this. And I said, why are you looking at me like that? And she went, I'm trying to compose an answer. And I said, what to? And she went, I don't know, I can't remember. And I said, but I annoyed you. And she went, a little while ago, but I can't remember what it was about. I'll be back when I've worked it out.

And then she just stalked off. I was like, what is going on? Now, you did mention, I know you're both super busy, but Andy, you did say this is a particularly busy time for you. And you've chosen it, and it's fabulous. So what are you up to? So I've been, I've just got back from Antigua a couple of weeks ago, and I'm leaving again on Sunday.

Makita's coming out on Monday. Is this for another documentary? No, it's for a pop-up rum shop project that I've been doing in Antigua. It's a 100-day pop-up rum shop to celebrate Restaurant Week and it's the Cricket World Cup. The Cricket World Cup, Jane.

And they're having some of the matches in Antigua and different chefs are coming out there to cook with me. Tommy Banks is coming next week who is a chef that I work with on Great British Menu who's also a huge cricket fan so he's beside Oh God, he's going to lose it.

He was going to be a cricketer and then he got ill and became a chef instead so he's beside himself with excitement and we've been celebrating Caribbean food and culture and it's in a point of quite historical significance on the island called Fort James,

which is where all of the different colonials sort of protected what they thought was their land. They used to call it the gateway to the Caribbean because from that point, it's the first point you hit in the Caribbean when you come from Europe, is that spot in Antigua. So it's this high point and

there's still the old ruined fort and the cannons are there and stuff so I think it's quite important that um African diasporic Caribbean people stand in that space and take it up and speak our name and do loud brilliant things there it feels really good to kind of claim the space it's powerful yeah I think so yeah I mean. The reason I mentioned the documentary is because I thought the stuff you did in the Caribbean, the documentary there, was just fantastic. Surely, Makita, you're going to do more of those. Travel is really something

we want to do more of. And we're kind of doing it and thinking about different ways to do it. But I've also been really busy with the stuff that I'm doing. I mean, we are just getting by with the stuff that we'm doing and mum, I mean, we are just getting by with the stuff that we're doing. We're just managing to do all that.

To do it all at the moment, yeah. But I think probably after the summer we'll be doing travel again. Yeah, okay. There are plans afoot. Definitely. I'm really glad to share you. And also, yeah, we are busy.

Sorry, going on about being busy but we do actually love being this busy and there are a lot of things that we've been building for a long time that are sort of blooming and in fruition now and it feels really beautiful you know hard work really does pay off and and the reason we work hard is because there are a lot of things we want to do in this big world in this you know sometimes short shorter than you think life well yeah absolutely so you've got to take every chance you get can i just ask um you makita is there an element of competition so you do the podcast with your mom stirring it

up very enjoyable you lull people into a false sense of security get them round feed them with food and booze and then it all starts coming out and then you do

your podcast with your mate Lily Allen now which one's your favourite which one do you enjoy doing the most oh no

what a question I think it's just very strange to have two of the most personal relationships of my life so public. Yes, well. But, I don't know, I love them for different reasons.

I mean, I really love staring up because of our team and a lot of the people we work with in all the things we do come together to make staring it up. I love the idea of like throwing these dinner parties and giving people, we feel like we give a lot to people when they come to our house, a lot of love, food, energy, safety, warmth. And that is sort of, they respond in a particular way because they don't feel like they're on the interview trail and they're just at your house. They're literally at mum's yard. So that has all its beauty on its own.

But Miss Me is a whole different kettle of fish because it's just become this thing, this huge behemoth of a podcast, which I don't even really like love podcasts, but now I'm doing two that are... Sorry, did you say you don't really love them, but now you're doing two that are both really successful? She said that to Romesh.

She went, looks like you do. Looks like you do. But I didn't understand the power of them. And now I've really begun to understand that podcasts insert themselves into people's lives in a really particular way which actually is quite different to people sitting down and watching on the telly

and I'm old school because I've been doing this for 25 years so I just believe that on screen is where power lies but actually I've really learnt the power of a podcast and I love how much it's sort of threaded through everyone's lives especially with Miss Me a bit like you I've had to learn about podcasts and the power of a podcast and I love how much it's sort of threaded through everyone's lives, especially with Miss Me. A bit like you, I've had to learn about podcasts and the power of them and

the intimate nature of them means that you do find yourself saying things that you would never dream of saying. Oh, Jade, you don't even know. This episode... Have you even listened to Miss Me? Well, I was about to say, I mean, I kind of do know. No, no, no, no. I'm talking about an episode we just did yesterday and I was like, am I actually going to talk about I mean, I kind of do know. No, no, no, no. I'm talking about an episode we just did yesterday

and I was like, am I actually going to talk about this? But I just look up and I see Lil and I go, yeah, sure, I'll just talk about it. And then they send you the edit back. You're like, no, that's an episode. That's an episode. But do you remove stuff quite routinely? Do you know what?

Not really. More like as a producer, I want it to sound better and I want it to move quicker or, you know, at the better pace. But no, I don't take out anything because it's too truthful. I think that's the good stuff. How is Lily doing? Because I've always thought of her as someone who was, in a way, deliberately misunderstood by some parts of the British media

because she's a very clever, very clever woman. I think she has written some of the best songs of the last 20 years. And I really do mean that. What's the one about London, LDL? You see, I can listen to that on a loop. And then there's another beautiful song she wrote about having a little child and then leaving them to go on tour.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's called Three, is it? Yeah, I think that's on her fourth album. Yeah, so, you know, but then she was a wild child. She was the daughter of celebrities and it all went a bit pear-shaped for her.

How does she feel about all that now? I think Lily was a real product of her time. I think why she was so successful was a product of the time because she was

this observational, smart thinker who could write about what she saw and what we all saw but, like, she wrote it down and she knows

how to write a hook. And she's funny. She's funny. And what's been beautiful about, but also a product of the time where the press were... And hard on women. Allowed to tear you apart. Young women, particularly.

Young women, especially young successful women, especially young successful women that are good at what they do and smart ones that have opinions. Nah, I mean, that would never have rolled. But the podcast has given her this beautiful new opportunity to take her narrative back. And not just like the narrative of her story, but just the narrative of who she is, actually.

And because I'm her best friend and she sees me as a place of complete safety, even I am surprised by how just little she's being on Miss Me also you both like you just turned 40 Lily's turning 40 next year next year

we're still 2024 Lily turns 40 next year so you know you've both grown up with people watching you grow up I think that's quite a hard thing to do because they both became successful

when they were really very young yeah and did you have qualms about Makita's early career because she was really really young well yeah she was 15 makita was 15 when she um started doing uh pop world so it was a bit well the thing is school had gone a bit pear-shaped yeah so it wasn't working and i didn't know she'd been she was on her like fifth school or something and i was just like i don't know what we're going to do. It's just upside down, all sidey ways. And then we got a call saying, will Makita come and audition for this show that we're doing?

And they'd been trying to audition loads of stage school kids up and down the country, and they couldn't get anyone to be natural. And this woman had met Makita at a dinner party or something. Oh, in 192, this restaurant we used to go to. You know 192? A few years before. I couldn't say. Yeah, in 192, this restaurant we used to go to a few years before. I couldn't say.

Go on. Yeah, just this place. And then we'll draw a veil over that. And she'd remember, she said, that kid must be about 15 or something by now. Why don't we try her?

And she got my number and called me and Makita went and did the audition and got the job. So showbiz saved her. Showbiz saved her. Literally. And Lily's too. Yeah. Because we didn't saved her. Showbiz saved her, literally. Literally.

And Lily's too. Yeah. Because we didn't know what we were going to do with her either. Frankly, the pair of them, completely unemployable. It's so true. Actually, Alison, Lily's mum and my mum, a lot of the other parents would be like, what are you two going to do about Lily and McGee?

Because we had just been in so many schools and we weren't naughty, but we were just not, we couldn't settle. Let's say they got into a few scrapes. Scrapes. Jolly japes. Jolly japes. It was tomfoolery all around. Tomfoolery, an expression we don't hear enough.

Look, it's a very interesting time in this country right now. I know that for various reasons, contractual reasons, you can't talk too deeply about politics. But how are you feeling,y just about i don't know i was happened to be in red car earlier this week in up in the northeast of england and what i sensed there was just that everyone that i met and i really do mean this apart from a couple of the candidates just felt that politicians weren't worth a lot they just i think everybody is just i think everybody's fed up of everybody at the moment.

And it's a little bit, it's sort of rock and a hard place, I think, for most people. I think we need to be inspired as a country. That's exactly what I was going to say. We want some great orator. We want, you know, Tony Benn back. JFK. We want somebody charismatic and energised and exciting and thrilling. And it's not really happening, is it?

From any kind of corner of the political spectrum? It's interesting, because me and Lil were talking about the Call Britannia campaign on Miss Me and sort of that moment where everything met at the same time. British music was powerful with Oasis and Blair, and Tony Blair was just one labourer in power. Change. Change was a foot.

Well, change is the word now but it yes but it doesn't feel the same does it i think there's as we said before the truth just sounds different right okay so um you will both vote i'm not gonna push it any but you'll definitely vote yeah do you worry about people who don't andy i worry about people who don't vote i won't because what happens is the people the people that make the loudest noise, I think, are the ones that worry me the most in the world generally, in America, here, all over the world, in France, Italy, all that, in Sweden, all those scary people.

All the people that terrify me make the loudest noise and they seem to be very galvanised. So I think there is a whole swathe of people sort of in the middle right across the world who are a bit apathetic and that's how we got uh some people in power in america for instance in the first place yeah so because people just went ah what's the point and it's like there's a point and i think there's a huge must vote we must vote you must take that power people have died for the right to vote. People have literally laid their lives down for us.

We owe it to them to make a decision and make a choice and vote. You don't have to agree with everybody else. You know, I think one of the things that worries me in the world is that we've lost the power to have just discourse, just civilised discourse. It's like someone disagrees with you. It's like, get rid of them! It's like, disagrees with you, it's like, get rid of them! It's like, oh my God,

they literally just think something other than you. Yeah. You know, and sometimes it's lovely to be proven wrong. You have a discussion with someone, you think, you know what, I'd never thought about it like that before. So Makita can change your mind. Well, I was going to say, obviously, I am very reasonable like that.

But there is also a huge sector, Jane, in this country that don't think that voting is for them or open to them or that it will change anything or create any power. And I think that's something that needs to change. There are some people who don't even know how to vote or where to vote or what it means because they don't feel like they're spoken to in these conversations and they're usually not.

Yeah, well, that's the truth, isn't it? Can we just end with, first of all, Andy, I just think as a woman, I don't think I know anyone else in Britain who owns their look like you do. Thank you. But I've met you a couple of times and you look different, but always amazing.

I've got my Formula One racing thing on today. Have you? Is that Formula One? No, it's not, but that's what I call it. No, it is. It's an all-in in one driver's jumpsuit like Adidas driver's suit she gets a little bit like

I'm like okay do you drive? yes very well what have you got? flat car I don't know anything about cars also I hate Formula 1

it's the most boring thing in the world I don't understand it they just go round in circles that noise is so awful I don't like it either and I love sports but I don't like it I They just go round in circles. That noise is so awful. I don't like it either. And I love sport, but I don't like it. I love sport.

What sport do you like, Jaden? Oh, football. So I'm excited for the Euros. Me too. Euros. And the Olympics coming up. I think Britain's going to do well.

I'm really excited for that. We just had Emily Campbell on Staring Up. On Staring Up. Well, I met her because she was a guest on Great British Money. She's incredible.

She's the only person, only woman, to ever have won a medal in weightlifting for this country. And she's going to get the gold. She's going to get the gold. She got silver last time. She's going to get the gold. We fed her.

We took a picture of what we fed her so that when she wins the gold, we can say, we fed her gold winning athlete. We can say, fueled by stirring it up. What did you give Emily Campbell? Oh, I made fresh salted wild sea trout. Oh, I made fresh salted wild sea trout. Oh, yes.

I made a saltfish radish avocado, like buljol, which is like a Caribbean saltfish salad with little pickled radishes. And I made... And then you threw on a steak, a Wagyu steak. Oh, because I'm worried there wasn't enough food. We should cook something else because, you know, she's a weightlifter. She needs protein and I had Wagyu in there. So I made her a weightlifter. She needs protein and I had Wagyu in there so I made her a Wagyu steak and then I made these lovely

white sweet potato pakoras and fresh turmeric mayonnaise. If she doesn't win gold now. Sorry, lumping the pressure on Emily. Come on, Emily. We've done our job. Can I say, one of the most...

I'd vote for her. She's so charismatic, I say, one of the most... Now, she, I'd vote for her. Oh, my goodness. She's so charismatic, so clever, so funny. So after she's finished with this sport business, please give her all of the sports commentating jobs. Yeah, we're pushing for her to be the new sports commentator. We are going to represent Emily. She's hilarious, smart, and just quick, quick, quick.

You know, earlier, V, you were talking... Sorry, you know, earlier, Jane, you were talking about... What did you call me? I'm so sorry. This interview is over. So did you call me there? I'm so sorry. This interview is over. Sorry. I am so sorry. We're trying to start it out.

No, because I came in, I said, I came in, I said, hello, Jane. No, you were very deliberate. I know who you are. Unbelievable.

I'm so sorry. Just finish your point. And I hate when people get my name wrong. Never mind that. But when we came in, you said that... I can't remember now.

Well, that was a good note to end on. No, I was going to say... Oh, yes. You said you get to sit on this side of the desk and you get to hear all these incredible stories. And that's very much how stirring it up is. I feel like these people come to our table and they tell us these stories and we learn from them.

And this series in particular, we have such beautiful pillars of sort of British life and the industry like Sandy Toksvig and Davina McCall and Tom Kerridge. I felt like I learned a lot and that's when you really feel like you're very lucky to have this job. Don't you agree, Jane?

No, I do. For God's sake. I do, Elsie. Absolutely. Thank you both very much. Elsie. That's a very good name for her. I'm going to call her that from now on. Good afternoon. I'm off. Elsie. Absolutely. Thank you both very much. Elsie. That's a very good name for her. I'm going to call her that from now on.

Good afternoon. I'm off. Elsie Oliver. David Baddiel spares us no detail from his life in My Family, the memoir detailing his mother's long-standing affair, his father's dementia, and the trials and tribulations of growing up in a very strange household of emotional weirdness, really. But there was also golf memorabilia, dinky toy collections and huge stashes of pornography, all in Dollis Hill in London.

Now, David's love of cats makes a very welcome appearance towards the end of the book, because all in all, you feel as the reader that he's become something of a friend by the end of the book, one that you want to look out for, but also worry that one day he might write about you in the same finite detail. Hello, David. Hello, how are you doing?

Yeah, we're doing very well, thank you. It's lovely of you to come in. Hello, David. Don't leave me out. No, you're not left out at all of this. Do your friends and your own family actually worry about that? Because it is a very finite detail in this book. Yeah. Well, so the book uh inspired by a stand-up show that i did called my family not the sitcom in the west

end uh and uh my mum had just died uh when i decided i was going to do that and uh my younger brother uh wrote to me i told my younger brother he said you're not doing it uh which turned out to be wrong. And then my older brother did a very interesting thing. My old brother, who I write about quite a lot in the book, and who sort of is my proper parent, I think, because my parents were so nuts. So this is Ivor? Ivor, yeah. Ivor came round and he said, we could talk about this for two hours. And I could go through all the rights and wrongs. But I know you, you're gonna do it, aren't you? I said, yes. So let's just go with it. And then I said, but you're going to have to trust me.

I haven't written it yet, but I know it will be an act of love, an act of celebration, even though I'm going against, it's kind of counterintuitive, what people do when people die, which is they say, okay, let's just say they were lovely people. Let's just be, let's say, as happened when I was at my mum's funeral, she was wonderful. Because people have this notion of we mustn't wash our dirty linen in public, particularly about people who've gone. But the trouble with that is, then you don't say who they were.

Then you're left with a bland idealisation of who people were. And actually, one of the things about this book and the show is that I get the sense that people come away thinking, oh, I really know who these people were. And of course, your parents lived rather extraordinary lives. So tell us a little bit more about your mum and her life had the shadow of Hitler across it, didn't she? Yeah. And there was forever in her mind, obviously, the dream and fantasy of the life that she

should have led. Well, that's how I think of it. It's not quite as on the surface as that with my mum she was never in therapy uh but it's something that i think about a lot particularly in writing this book because so the book is uh to some extent it's about a few things but a top note of it is that my mum had a sort of lifelong from about a mid-30s affair with a golfing memorabilia collector and then turned their lives over to golfing memorabilia collector and then turned their lives over to golfing memorabilia because she was an obsessive person who couldn't just have an affair she had to pretend or pretend to herself as well that she was obsessed with golf

because her lover was a golfing guy uh and that's funny but there's a poignancy to it because i think and this is something that is to do with the way that I think, which is don't judge people, try and understand them. That she, because she was a refugee from Nazism and her family had been very wealthy, I mean she wouldn't have known this when she was a baby but she would have heard about it before everything was taken away from them and most of her relatives were murdered. Before that

she would have had, if that had never happened, a big society wedding, she'd have married someone glamorous, some Prussian prince. She couldn't get that. In Dollish Hill in 1972 she married my dad who was a Welsh society wedding, she'd have married someone glamorous, some Prussian prince. She couldn't get that in Dollish Hill in 1972. She married my dad, who was a Welsh working class, mainly quite angry bloke. And so she looked elsewhere for glamour. And where she found it, which is kind of brilliant, is in golf and golfing memorabilia. And I think that's what makes it kind of funny, right? That's like, for me, it's all about find the comedy in this tragedy. Yes. And there is a lot of comedy.

And I'll tell you what you manage to do. When you're reading the book, there is so much pathos. I think you have a huge amount of empathy for your family, which sometimes can be surprising because I don't think they always treated you right when you were growing up, David. I know you've had therapy and you can take this kind of honest conversation.

But you do actually make the reader able to laugh in the most extraordinary places. There is a photograph, is it of your older brother? Ivor, when he's a baby. When he's a baby, which you show after also showing the reader a series of childhood pictures he did about men. Yeah. You know, I'm going to draw a man. Yeah.

And it's always a picture of your mother's lover, not your dad. And it's a pipe. Well, it's because he's smoking a pipe, which your mother's lover smoked. Can I just classify this? So, all of this is true. All the material is true. Some of it is me extrapolating from the truth.

So, my brother did some drawings when he was about seven or eight, in which, like any kid, he's drawing men. And he says, here is a man, here is a funny man. And each man has a pipe. At one point, there are two pipes. The pipe appears to be smoking a pipe. Now, my mother's lover smoked a pipe and my dad didn't.

And so I'm extrapolating from that that these are drawings of this guy. They may well not be. He might just have seen pictures of men drawing a pipe. But then at the end, there is a picture when I say, obviously, you know, this doesn't mean that in any way Ivor was definitely this man's child. And then I show a picture of him as a baby with a pipe, which is a gag.

Which is an actual photograph. It's an actual photograph. Yeah, but it's a gag. It's a joke. Yes, no, I know. I'm not suggesting. But it's quite an odd thing to want to do, actually, David, to want to make people able to laugh at a childhood

that just must have been complicated for you. Yeah, I think so. But, I mean, there is a point in the book where I talk about how annoyingly comfortable I am in my own skin, which I am. I'm sort of the only person I think of who is more annoyingly comfortable in his own skin is my son, who is unbelievably comfortable in his own skin.

But I am, really. And so at some level, whatever damage was done by this weird childhood and this very highly broadcast affair, and my dad's anger and all that kind of stuff, it's just somehow led me to a place of sort of comfort and happiness and okayness, which is why the book

is a celebration, and comedy is part of that. Comedy is definitely my way of thinking my way through this, and I think I say at one point, this is what makes this book different from, say, Spare. Because Spare by Prince Harry is a furious book. I've listened to it. I've all read it. But it's furious. He's so angry about the damage wrought by his family. Now, that might be interesting, but it does not make for a comfortable or funny read. It's not a celebration of the damage, which this book is. funny read. It's not a celebration of the damage, which this book is. How much do you realistically think your father ever knew about your mum's affair? Because it seems extraordinary that he

didn't know a lot when actually you and your brothers did know quite a lot. Yeah, we knew about it because she was quite keen to tell us. She was keen to tell everyone. My mother thought in a very 1970s way that having an affair was glamorous really very keen to tell everyone that she was having an affair and of course there was the massive red flag or white flag if you like the fact that the golfing memorabilia guy had led to her becoming obsessed with golf that's quite a big clue you would have thought but the way that i put it in the book is that not that my dad refused to believe it or refused to see it but what i say is that he somehow managed not to notice it and the i say is that he somehow managed not to

notice it and the reason i use that construction is that my dad really was he's a very clever bloke very very male welsh working class bloke for whom most of my mother's behavior was and i'm going to use a jewish word here which i use in the book misha gas by which i mean madness he was constantly like for my dad his big thing was aggravation and avoiding it. Everything for my dad was aggravation. He was a man who liked food, football and shouting who the effing hell is this now every time the phone rang. That was my dad. And so for him, my mum just becoming obsessed with golf at some level, he thought I can't do I'm not interested. It's another one of her madnesses of her mgazes. And so he just tuned it out.

But I don't think this was because he was a sort of terribly frightened cuckold of a man. That just wasn't who my dad was. Yeah, you have this beautiful expression in the book, my parents was a very ragged version of love. Yeah. I thought that was beautiful. Yeah, it's very complex that because whether my parents were in love is to do with, I think, the notion of what we think love is.

We have an idealised Hollywood Richard Curtis blessing version of love. That is never what it is. And there is a moment in the book, which is not funny, where I have to, with my brother, tell my dad that my mum has died. And by that time he's got dementia. And so we have to tell with my brother, tell my dad that my mum has died. And by that time, he's got dementia. And so we have to tell him again and again. And each time, for about a year, he completely collapses, even though he seemed to be furious with my mother the whole time. And they were out all the time, and they had a very ragged version of love.

But it's still his story, right? His story was that he was married to that woman. Sorry, I'm going to go now. Sorry. No, take as much time as you like. Can I just ask, sorry, I haven't read the book. How did they meet? Because they seem a very unlikely twosome.

Well, not that unlikely. So one of the things that people are slightly confused about when I say my dad was a Welsh working class guy, he's Jewish. I think some people think, Welsh working class, therefore, no, he was Jewish. He could be Jewish he was jewish yeah and if you go back a few generations from him he's got very very orthodox uh forebears um but so my mum was a refugee she came to this country in 1939 just before the war broke out her and her parents just got out of germany and then i think in early like 1960 she's at a place

called hillel house uh which was a place in London that was kind of a social club for young Jewish people. And I know this, it's not in the book actually, they had one dance and my dad said, right, do you want to go home? Which is very my dad. Quick worker. Well, she said, what, now?

And he went, no, no, no, in a couple of dances time. And despite that moment of irritation, which was very my dad, she eventually did say yes. And that's how they got together, a Hillel dances time. And despite that moment of irritation, which was very my dad, she eventually did say yes. And that's how they got together, a Hillel house dance. Right. We've done something incredibly meta, David, that we, Jane and I,

have already recorded our podcast today where we put this interview into the podcast as if it's coming up in the future, but it's already in the past. Stick with it. Wow, Doctor Who. And we've already said that you've told us a fantastic anecdote

about a Peter Gabriel concert. So you really must tell this fantastic anecdote now. This will be surprising to the listener who has not imagined that they have yet to believe the thing that we've seen coming. Why don't you just say, tell the Peter Gabriel story? Because it's more fun if I said it like that. OK, do you want me to tell it? Yes, please.

OK, so the book includes a few stories about my life in showbiz. It's not a showbiz memoir, but I do include a few stories about my life in showbiz, partly to show how I think my upbringing didn't really prepare me for a life in showbiz, because you've got to be able to not say things that might be

the wrong thing to say, and I never had housework, because people were just saying whatever all the time. And one example of that is I was a massive fan, still am, of Peter Gabriel. Massive fan of Genesis, let me be out and proud about that.

Not The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Yeah, completely. Oh, totally. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. How dare you for a minute suggest that isn't a masterwork. Reel it back in, kids. Sorry.

Anyway, I got to meet Peter Gabriel who's a lovely guy and it's funny enough when this happened, which I think I didn't include when I did this, i've done this material on stage but anyway i didn't include this because it felt like too much privilege i'm on a skiing holiday with peter gabriel and i i need to put that in because we are on a ski lift on our own me and him when this happens which is he's

asking me about morwenna my partner morwenna banks and she's an actress and a performer and he says what's she doing now and i say oh she's in the's in the new Harry Enfield show, Harry and Paul. And he says, oh, whatever happened to Harry Enfield? And I say, oh, he was off doing a show on Sky, and then he did a show called Celeb on BBC Two. And then I say, which was about a faded rock star, in fact. And it goes really quiet and cold, even in the snow. And I realise that, in fact, that the words in fact

make that sound like I'm saying, like you, like you, Peter Sidney Gabriel. That's what you are. And she's totally not what I meant. And you've got nowhere to go if you're on a ski lift together. No, well, I'll tell you what I did. I think I talked about this sitcom, Celeb, for about five minutes just to fill the silence.

A sitcom I'd never watched. I just talked about it in the hope that I could put as much distance between me and the words in fact and the rest of my life. Okay. Has he forgiven you? Peter's forgiven me, I think. Yeah, I have seen him since and he has forgiven me. I believe so. He's a very nice man. Excellent. The person who may not have

actually has forgiven me as well is Harry Enfield. The second part of that story, which I will tell while I'm here, is that remarkably I did Skins, which is a Channel 4 drama, a few years ago, about ten years ago, with Harry Enfield, who's in Skins. And I was coming back from Bristol with Harry Enfield, where that's filmed, with Harry Enfield, and Peter Gabriel got on the train.

Oh, you are joking. No, no, I know it sounds impossible, but that happened. Then Peter Gabriel got off the train, and I told Harry Enfield that story about saying, in fact, all that stuff, and Harry Enfield doesn't laugh once. And then I realised that Harry Enfield is thinking, all he's thinking about is that Peter Gabriel said

whatever happened to Harry Enfield. That's all he's thinking about. I've screwed up with another one of my heroes. Excellent work. That was like one of Jane's anecdotes, but I'm very glad we got to the end. Is that a compliment? I think it probably is. Yes, of course it is. What does

David do on a Friday night? One of our listeners has texted Is that to do with the Keir Starmer question? It probably is, yes. I don't particularly do anything on a Friday night of a religious nature because I am a Jewish atheist, which I know confuses some people, but it shouldn't.

And I sometimes am in with my family, I'm sometimes not. Every so often a Jewish person would invite me to their house for Friday night, and that's always very nice, because it means they've made a slap-up dinner, but I don't do all that, no. Sorry. And do you feel confident that were Labour to form the next government, there seems a likelihood that this might happen,

that the anti-Semitism that the party was riddled with not so long ago, do you think that Sir Keir Starmer has quelled that problem? I think he definitely wants to and has done some of it and some of his ways in which he's changed the nature of the party and whatever is definitely about that, there's a kickback to that, which is Sir Keir Starmer trying to do that will lead to more anti-Semitism,

insofar as, say, there was a point where actually Keir Starmer quite early on mentioned that he'd read my book, Jews Don't Count, and this led to some people on the left getting very angry about that and saying it was offensive and all the rest of it. And there's a sense in which the ongoing reverberations from that time, as he tries to sort them out, will always lead to pushback,

will always lead to the idea, and the central idea, which is problematic about it, is that the left feel, or the far left feel, that the bringing up of anti-Semitism is always a politicised thing, is always weaponising anti-Semitism in order to purge the left. The trouble with that is that anti-Semitism is always a politicised thing, is always weaponising anti-Semitism in order to purge the left. The trouble with that is that anti-Semitism is a real thing and some weaponisation of it may be happening, that doesn't mean that anti-Semitism isn't there.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive

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