Off Air... with Jane and Fi - THIS IS A HALLOWEEN SPECIAL, LEST WE FORGET!

Episode Date: October 31, 2023

In this spooky episode, Jane and Fi pose some important questions: How do we use colons? Is there such thing as the paranormal? Would you want to buy a house from Jane? Plus, they're joined by Debbie Weinstein, the Vice President of Google and Managing Director of GoogleUk, to discuss 25 years of Google and look ahead to the future of tech. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Okay, let's start. I've just been slightly distracted because I've got a copy of Jilly Cooper's new book.

It's quite a heavyweight tome, both intellectually and literally. And I'm looking forward to this because it's about football. Now, normally, Jilly Cooper's books are set in worlds that don't mean a great deal to me. Equestrian. Yes, although she did do one about an orchestra as well, didn't she? Oh, did she? Yes, she did.

Of course, with your musical background, you'll have enjoyed that. What was that called? I can't remember. Strings. No strings attached? No, because they're all... It's quite good, isn't it? This latest oomph,

I'm going to say latest over the last four decades, it'll say on the front, they're all just one word, aren't they? Score. Score, that's it. So can you read the other ones, please?

Riders. Yeah. Rivals. Yes. Polo. So those are all in the equestrian world. The man who made husbands jealous. That's still in the equestrian world. The man who made husbands jealous. That's still in the equestrian world, I think.

Who was it? A passionata. That might have headed off into the world of choirs and music. Score. I think that's the one about the orchestra. Pandora. That's about a girl. That's about a box. Wicked.

Cricket. Was it? Well, it must be set in the world of cricket. Wicked. Oh, I thought you said wicket. Was it? Well, it must be set in the world of cricket. Wicked. Oh, I thought you said wicket. Jump with an apostrophe. Oh, that's probably show jumping. And mount, with an exclamation mark.

That's about climbing. That's about hill walking, isn't it? It's a very, very sexy world. I probably have enjoyed that. Do you know, the book I've got that I definitely did love by Julie Cooper was her book about a class or class. I thought it was absolutely hilarious and I might bring

that in because I think it probably still rings true. Can I just have a look at that great big list? I mean the woman is prolific She is prolific and she's well into her 80s now isn't she? Yes. Oh so look there they all are Emily, Bella, Harriet, Octavia Prudence, Imogen, Lisa and Co. They're definitely girls' names of a certain kind of genre,

aren't they? Yeah. No Jane, unfortunately. No, although I am reading, I mean, there's so much in this book that there's no way either of us can speed through the whole lot of it. Philippa Gregory has written this incredible book about women's history going back thousands of years. And Philippa Gregory is on, I think, the programme next week, but I think we're

doing the interview this week. Gosh, our lives are complicated. And there are some names that have held true and have still been in existence throughout the last thousand years in England. And there are, Eleanor is a name that's always been around. Matilda is another one. Yes. And Jane. And Elizabeth. And Elizabeth, yes.

Although I think Elizabeth was less common sort of back in the day. Well, it must have gone as far back as the 17th century. Yeah, but that's not that far, that's not that long ago, is it? It is. It's quite a long way. How to Stay Married is one of her first, well it's her first non-fiction work. I might buy a copy of that.

I'll get you one for Christmas. Oh dear. Anyway, look. Jilly Cooper is with us in a week or two. Right. It's spooky time. Spooky time.

But can I do differentiating the colons first, please? Yes, because that's more important. Yes. So this is from another Jane, Jane Fowler, who says, Hello, Jane, and welcome back, Fee. Just Fee will do. Just a quick email to share the explanation I was given for the difference between colons and semicolons.

This is just gorgeous. If a colon is a fanfare, a semicolon is a polite cough. Yeah, I think that does it. Yeah, that's lovely. Just say that again. If a colon is a fanfare, a semicolon is a polite cough. OK, Einar's covered in a sheet and he's outside pretending to be a ghost. Oh, God.

It's pathetic, isn't it? If they think that's going to disturb us Oh, he's moving a bit more quickly now Well, of course we've had some very we've had some other visitors to the building today We can't talk about that I'm not allowed to talk about them It's alright, I'll tweet about it later

No, you won't You've been told that you can't. What, both of them? Okay. Right, okay. Have you ever heard the expression lips sealed? Yes. Right.

Well, pay attention to it. Okay. Have you heard about... I love this. I mean, it makes me so angry with the modern world. This concept of silent walking that people are talking about on TikTok. What a load of absolute crap. This business where you can go, it's a thing, just to go out for a walk without listening to anything.

People are talking about it like it's something interesting. Oh, dear. I know, it is sad, isn't it? But at least it's the young ones discovering something that we always knew was good and there's something quite nice about that isn't there Yeah I suppose so

Right, let's do spooky things because we've got a picture of some ghosts I'd like to thank the correspondent Fleur who sent us this image and there's no getting away from this V she sent us a picture of some ghosts Wow, I've to thank the correspondent Fleur, who sent us this image. And there's no getting away from this, V. She sent us a picture of some ghosts, didn't she? Well, I've stared at this long and hard

and I honestly don't know what to make of it. What are their ghosts? Fleur sounds and writes like a very sentient, very sensible creature. But she sent us a picture of an abbey with, I mean, it just looks a little bit like a kind of 1970s sitcom

is just about to be filmed. Because if they are ghosts, Jane, why have they come back to this world? One of them's dressed in a kind of what looks like a rather exotic white tuxedo style suit. And then one of them's got the flowing robes, just like what Einar had on. Why would you come back dressed like that? It's very impractical

you're going to get dirty do you have a washing machine where you are? I don't know but do you want to read Fleur's email? What we can't do Fee is assume that there aren't washing machines in the spirit world No, I mean you're right. We can't I agree, it's a bold choice

and of all of the white goods, I'm not I mean, you're right. We can't. I agree. It's a bold choice. And of all of the white goods, I'm not sure that the washing machine would be it. Well, Fleur points out that when her children were little, most weekends were spent in local parks. And one of our favourites, she says, was Sawley Park near Clitheroe. That's in Lancashire,

and it overlooks the ruins of Sawley Abbey. I do hope I'm pronouncing Sawley Abbey right. The kids used to play in the park, and when they got bored of that, we used to take them into the Abbey ruins, where they would play cafes in hidey holes. You'll see from the picture I've enclosed that it was a hot summer's day. While the kids were playing in the park, I climbed up onto the climbing frame to capture a picture of the ruined Abbey in the summer sunshine.

And what an idyllic image of rural England this is. There were other tourists looking around the abbey ruins, so I waited until they'd moved out of view before capturing a picture of the abbey without any people in it. And she's put that in capitals. I thought no more of the picture and we took the kids into the abbey and I took another picture within the abbey of my daughter posing on the night stairs. That image is also enclosed. Eventually I looked through my camera roll and to my surprise I noticed that my ruined abbey picture had, and if we had a budget for this podcast we'd now have some important music, had some white figures in it. I cannot explain what or who they are. They are not monks. I do not know why they are in the picture. These white figures

are standing on the night stairs in the same place where I later took a picture of my daughter posing. I did briefly look into the history of Sawley Abbey and the night stairs are supposed to be haunted. As a footnote to this I did recently remember the picture again and I used it when teaching a ghost story to my GCSE English group to illustrate gothic setting. The cheeky cynics accused me of photoshopping the figures into the picture for their entertainment. However, I have abject IT skills and this would not be possible. Well, I think what we have here is living proof of ghosts.

So we'll put it up on the Insta. I think what we have here is living proof of ghosts. So we'll put it up on the Insta. Eve will do that for us. And we will take all of your opinions and your thoughts. And I mean, you can try and destroy the magic and tell us how that might have happened. But we might all have to just live with the magic and be a believer. Well, I think today of all days,

if you're listening on October 31st, this is time to wave all cynicism goodbye and just embrace the possibility. Embrace all your souls. Could somebody be trying to contact you from the other side? We did talk about this, didn't we? Because we did an interview with Dolly Alderton, which will be put out at a later date. I'm so confused.

We're both very confused today about who's doing what, when, where. We've just been kind of walked into studio as John sits down to do an interview. I don't know. Anyway, there's a lovely little line, actually, and that's all it is, right at the end of her new novel called... Good Material. Thank you.

..where one of her main protagonists reveals that she has gone to see a psychic and the psychic just says one thing. In fact, it's during a seance, isn't it? One thing that she really properly, properly recognises as the behaviour of her grandmother. And it's just such a specific detail. It's a really kind of tingle-down-the-spine moment

and it's quite key to a big decision that she then makes and uh i mean you believe that you're in contact with the other side you just believe that you're in charge of everything so worrying i think it's an ism jenny i think you should get it seen too oh do you think i might have something i bloody hope so because then i could write an article about it no i'm fantastic whatever testing. Whatever it is you have, I don't know. I could write a book about it for you. You could do that. About what I've got.

You could very much so. And it could suddenly be a revelation. Yes. As to how this has affected all of your life. And well done you for getting through it. I know. Because it's been so tough and that way you've ended up. Imagine if you'd known earlier.

Oh God, my life could have been so different. Well, I tell you what, I mean, that would be ironic, isn't it? If you've got an ism that's about being psychic and then you write a book saying, if only I'd known that earlier, that's a torture. OK, that is two metaphor words. OK, have you ever seen a clairvoyant or a psychic? Well, no, but I've had my fortune read.

And this is what Dolly says, that not to call these people charlatans at all, but some of them have a knack of just identifying a tiny detail, which then comes true in your life, which makes you think that everything else that they've said would be true. And it's always the mundane thing, isn't it? And I went to see a fortune teller who said loads and loads of things about my personality

and my love life and my predictions, what was going to happen in my life and all that kind of stuff, but just said one really specific thing about furniture being moved in my sitting room. And a week later, I had to move all the furniture around to my sitting room because I had a funny leak coming in through one of the thingy windows at the top. And, of course, I made that connection.

Oh, gosh, that's what she meant. I've had to move all of the furniture around. But, I mean, it was a leak in the roof. Quite a stretch. Yeah, but it's clever stuff, isn't it? It makes you believe. Yes, I mean, if you want to believe. Yeah, if you want to believe.

I mean, my mum did go to, I think it was a meeting of the group she used to go to, which was maybe like, it's called Young Wives. She's still going. She doesn't go to, I think it was a meeting of the group she used to go to, which was maybe like, it's called Young Wives. She's still going. She does go to all that. It's a group called Old Wives. When do you have to move from young wife to old wife? And this is just, well, she's not a young wife because I'm her daughter,

so imagine how old she must be. Anyway, it does, it used to make my sister and I laugh, even back in the 70s when she went to Young Wives. And they would occasionally, there wouldn't be a topic for their meetings, and they would just have something called a knit and natter night. It's just all a long time ago, isn't it? No, it's not.

Actually, a friend of mine, Karen, she still goes to knit and natter. Oh, does she? Yeah. I used to go to sit and bitch. Oh, sit and, yes, knit and bitch. Not sit and bitch. Kn used to go to sit and bitch. Oh, sit and, yes, knit and bitch. Not sit and bitch. Knit and bitch, sit and bitch. Well, you can do all of them.

Stitch and bitch. Thanks, Eve. Thanks, Eve. Thank God you know where I've been. Yeah, quite. Perhaps I think perhaps Eve's got a gift. Wouldn't surprise me. No, my mum was told once at one of these meetings

by a supposed fortune teller that one of her daughters would become a successful estate agent. Well, actually, I'm not even sure they said successful. They just said as an estate agent. Jane, there's still time. Yeah, there is. The door may close on this glorious opportunity quite soon. Well, there you go.

Right. Do you know what? You'd be a terrible estate agent, Jane, because for a start you'd be quite judgmental about everybody else's houses. You wouldn't really want to show people round. I think you might be quite judgmental about the kind of people. And you'd probably tell them, you'd probably say things like, this isn't the house for you.

I don't think you'd fit in round here. Now, I can't bear, I don't know whether they still do this even that blurb about properties because i do i mean like anybody i go i visit a part of the country and then i go on right move do you do this well i go on prime location but yes oh okay well i always have a look and um it's all this stuff about boasting a tiled splashback. Yes. You just think, who boasts about a tiled splashback? A stunning west-facing aspect. It's just utter bollocks. Why haven't they changed all that stuff?

Just write the blurb in plain English in a catchy and appetising and appealing way. I completely agree. And actually, the estate agency that did start writing up very realistic details that just said something like cramped kitchen, dull bathroom, slimy hallway. Smells faintly of cat pee. Somebody probably died here, arrow on room.

Then they would get a reputation for themselves, wouldn't they? And I'm sure you'd still end up paying the same enormous amount of money. Lydia has a ghost story. Let's try and return. I'm trying to get still end up paying the same enormous amount of money. Lydia has a ghost story. Let's try and return. I'm trying to get this podcast back on message. This is the Halloween special, lest we forget. It's from Lydia. To start with, a big thank you for accompanying me

for the last five-plus years, providing stimulation and comfort to my early motherhood years at home and through the long nights. Oh, God, Lydia, they are long. I may have fallen asleep to your voices, but I've always rewound later in the night or the next day. Yes, you'd hope so. I wasn't conscious of a presence myself, but again, if we had a budget, we'd have music. But the night before my wedding, my mum and sister and I, probably not grammatically correct, were staying in a room together in an old hotel, the Tunbridge Wells Hotel. Do you know it?

In the Pantiles. Yes. My sister was woken by children running through the corridors and thought it was strange for children to be up in the middle of the night. I then sleepily woke to say, who's that little girl at the bottom of the bed? And quickly fell back to sleep, oblivious. My sister then had a very restless night, wide awake and terrified.

The next morning, there were no children at all at breakfast, and we asked if any were staying in the hotel, and they said no. However, she still looked gorgeous in the wedding photos, if a little bit tired. And she adds this detail, my son now does after-school clubs on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so I get to listen live. Well, why don't you send her to after-school club on Mondays and Wednesdays as well? And then you'd be sorted for the whole week. Probably quite pricey.

When I read that last line, I absolutely share in your desire to want to tell us that. Because when your kids first get accepted to a couple of After School Clubs and it changes your routine a bit and you've got an extra 45 minutes on the end of the school day, it's magic. routine a bit and you've got an extra 45 minutes on the end of the school day it's magic nothing beats the magic of the two and a half hours nursery between nine o'clock and 11 30 for me you first get that was the most liberating experience and i look i love i love kitties i really do but there was something absolutely i love kitties uh I just do. And just fabulous. At first, that was when I started, I properly fell in love with coffee then.

I just went to work. Okay. Oh dear, that's awful. Yeah, no, I did. I didn't bother with that, no. So lots of you were thrilled to hear from Claire Balding on the programme yesterday. Actually, two people in the building have stopped me today saying how much they enjoyed half an Hour in Claire's company.

She brought a little glass of wine with her and we toddled through Half an Hour of dogs and she told us some pretty interesting things along the way, actually. And we had a laugh. And Alice... Do you think she's got a future in broadcasting? Her partner joined us too. I think she may.

Yes. She absolutely may. But we did talk about walking and I think because obviously Claire and Alice and me are dog owners and really enjoy that dog walking thing, I think we'd made a kind of assumption actually that walking with a dog is absolutely marvellous and wonderful and far better than walking without a dog.

But there's a but, isn't there? This is interesting, I guess. Yes, and this one comes in from Carol, who says... Excuse me. Alice says that she doesn't go for a walk now that they don't have Archie, as it's not the same. Archie was their dog who died. I have a friend who has a dog, and when I've been for a walk with them, I find it really frustrating.

Part of what I enjoy when I go for a walk is the rhythm that you get into whilst walking. I find it very meditative. And even when we walk before she had the dog, we would chat all the while, but underneath it was the rhythm of walking. Now, on the few occasions that I've walked with a dog, I find that the rhythm is disrupted with the constant stopping to throw a ball, shout at them to come back or stop eating the poo. I also get frustrated with people assuming that you will love their dog

and that you will be quite happy with it jumping up a need for attention. I agree with that wholeheartedly, Carol. I know my view will not be popular, but we're not all the same. And I'm sure I'm not the only person who loves a walk without the company of a dog. So thank you for pointing that out. And I think it's a very good thing to say, actually. And I just hadn't really thought about it I just never used to go for walks

in London before I had a dog so I suppose I was stupid to assume that walking with a dog is better than walking without a dog it's just that I never went Well you do just go for a walk I do, but I kind of combine a walk

with some necessary food shop. So I do get really... The idea of a day when I couldn't go out for a walk I find quite frightening. And I became quite a walking 10,000 steps a day mad merchant during COVID. Yeah. And I have been known to just go up and downstairs if I'm on 9,710. Yes, I worry about you sometimes, really. You can worry about me a lot, if you like.

No, thank you. We've got a lovely... This is really for you, this email, because it's about your old school. I don't know whether we ought to name... We probably shouldn't name the young woman involved, but she's there at the moment. She is, yes.

So it's a pupil in Lower Sixth at St Swithin's. I've heard you, Fi, talk about having been to St Swithin's and we were mentioned in the same news article. Blimey, I haven't clicked on that. It's in the Telegraph. I don't think I should. I've enjoyed listening to you discuss the school. I wanted to talk about a hobby of mine, singing. I'm part of Farnham Youth Choir

and we're hoping to go to the World Choir Games in New Zealand in the summer holidays. Oh, wow, I hope you do. That would be amazing. It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for us. However, as a charity, the choir is struggling to pay for it, so we you do, that would be amazing. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity for us, however as a charity the choir is struggling to pay for it so we're fundraising as much as we can. If you could do anything for us like mentioning us

on the radio, we'd greatly appreciate it, everything helps. Well look, courtesy of Jane, who's passed this to me I've read it out, thank you very much, I don't know how I missed that actually. I was a bit all over the shop today, I think I've just talked to too many people you do the rest

great there's a breach and I'm going to step into it it's not good news for my dinner date is it it's going to be an absolute thriller that this is actually in relation you don't need to contribute to this because it doesn't concern you. It's about an interview that I did last week with Ed Gamble about his book Glutton.

And during the course of that conversation, we were talking about how, that's my theory for what it's worth, that every one of us, almost every woman, if I'm honest, I know, has what you might loosely call a relationship with food. And our correspondent is in Hampshire and she says it was comforting to know that more people than you'd expect think about food as much as we do because this woman has had anorexia in her teens and twenties and her husband has also had weight issues all his life. He used food as a comfort for trauma, she says.

We are now both at relatively stable weights, but we are attempting to raise three children with a healthy relationship with food when our own is still quite warped and we often struggle with our relationship with it. I'm terrified, she says, of creating in my children the same attitudes that my husband and I have had when it's all too easy to use biscuits to stop tantrums or tears or pure bribery if they really need to leave for the school run and the toddler just won't budge or sometimes we try to get them to finish their dinner because they haven't eaten their vegetables. Every time I do this I panic, I'm going to cause them an

eating disorder but I get overwhelmed by the day and I can't see any other way my four-year-old even innocently stepped on the scales the other day and I just froze with fear before hiding them away oh dear I mean I'm just going to pump that one out there because it's not an area I know much about but for other anyone else listening there will be somebody listening won't there who knows what it's like to have children not be able to eradicate your own experience or indeed your husband's experience from your mind while you're dealing with the day-to-day stuff. And they are day-to-day issues with young children, aren't they? And I know I've absolutely used food as bribery to get them to behave.

God, I mean, throughout the day, Jane. Yeah. You know, to keep the kid quiet on the bus, you know, to tempt them to go back into the house as a little treat before they can have the TV on. I mean, it's just so easy to attach all kinds of things to food. So I really feel for you because if that alarm bells going off in your head all the time, then you're not having a great relationship with food anymore yourself, are you? then you're not having a great relationship with food anymore yourself, are you? If you're constantly fearful that just in, you know, how it plays out with your kids.

It's the whole overthinking thing. And I overthink all sorts of stuff I shouldn't overthink. And it's worst case scenario, isn't it? What do they call it? First worst thoughts. First worst, yes. Also, for what it's worth, I remember the scales thing. And in the end, I just didn't have... I just chucked the scales somewhere else. I just didn't have any.

Because I've got two daughters and I suppose I was concerned that they might develop some sort of getting on the scales habit. So we just didn't have any in the house, end of. Yeah, we only have had one full-length mirror in the house during the entire time we've been there. That's not a good thought. Well, I mean, neither of us are experts here, but I do feel for our correspondents.

So if anyone's got any useful advice, we'd really welcome it, janeandfee at times.radio. Shall we head off into our big interview today, Jane? Yes, because it's with a very interesting woman who's... I mean, I think we need to be honest about the fact that we're not tech-sperts, are we? Oh, I love a bit of tech. I'm tech curious.

I've got a telly. Yes, well, I think there is a difference between us on this. Carry on. Okay. Debbie Weinstein is the Vice President of Google and Managing Director of Google UK and Ireland. She's terrifically important. She's a graduate of Brown University and Harvard Business School. And she's still relatively rare, a woman at the top of tech. And we talked quite a lot about that in the interview.

She did come in there to celebrate 25 years of Google. And it's so weird, Jane, isn't it, to imagine, as we both can, the world before Google came along, before we used it as a verb, before it allowed us to access so much information, you kind of didn't have to be clever anymore. Well, I don't think we've fully come to terms with the death of curiosity because you don't need to not know something anymore. Yeah. By the way, I've got a quick quiz.

Have you? What is the highest number under a million that if you were to write it in letters, you could do so without the letter N? Oh. OK. Can I think about that while I get to the end of this queue? Without the letter N?

Yes. It's a good one, isn't it? Yes. I think you're techie. You don't know the answer to that, do you? I hate it when you get that nasty voice on. It's a good one, isn't it? Yes. I think you're techie. You don't know the answer to that, do you? I hate it when you get that nasty voice on. It's very unpleasant. Carry on with it.

It chills my soul. Where was I? I know you've spoken to a lot of people today. Debbie Weinstein. I've got at least three more to get through, Jane. We also wanted to ask her about AI and to discuss the pathway for younger women in the tech world, which is actually a hugely, hugely important thing,

because if we don't get it right in this generation, we are a bit wotted. And Jane started by asking her why she hadn't been able to find that much about Debbie on Google. Well, there's some things out there. Oh, yeah, no, I could find out a little bit, but probably not as much as you could find out about Fi or me. Okay.

Maybe I'm just less interesting. We'll find out in 20 minutes. We can assess. We know that's not true. Okay. So do not leave this interview and Google me. Can I just say? Just so much rather you didn't.

But you take my point. Sometimes it is the most important people people like you who wield enormous influence it is actually quite hard on google interesting to find out about you interesting well i uh i think there are some things out about me certainly the views that i have about certainly our products and our development things i've done at unilever in the past. So there are some things out there, I know. Well, I saw you playing the drums on YouTube today.

Did you? Yeah. Oh, yes, I did play the drums in our LA office. That's hilarious. I didn't know that was actually on YouTube, available for anyone to see. It is. Yes, okay.

My friend Alex Angelides is a drummer, and he encouraged me. He has a whole segment he does around behind the drum set, and he got me to play the drums i do not actually play the drums no no i mean the nicest possible way debbie i could tell that yes exactly i wasn't even really sure how to hold the drumsticks but i did my best do you think that there's a kind of analog mind and a digital mind because if you have been born into a world where you have always known the screen you have always got your information where google is the verb that we use in order to search information i can't help but think that your actual neural pathways are changed by that experience aren't they and i think we could all agree no matter the purpose of a company that that actually, you know, there are very obvious downsides to that.

You know, it's interesting. My experience with technology, I think speaks to what you just described. So I graduated from university in 1995 and I remember being handed an internet email address by my university and they said, here, here's a, and I thought to myself, why would I ever need this?

Like literally, what would I do with this thing? And so I would probably conceive of myself as quite an analog person, at least in my origin days, back when I was 22, coming into the working world. And my career has definitely, I would say, in many ways, followed the path of the internet's growth. I'm now 50, and I'm doing sort of this job that obviously is working for this incredible internet company and bringing our tools and technology to people. But still i would say and my husband would probably corroborate this i'm quite an analog person in my in my daily habits well you're a gen you gen x i am a gen

i'm a boomer by about i'm a boom by about two weeks i'm slightly resentful because okay but i i always say this and my kids don't it, but I did computer studies in my last year at school, but with no computers. We just talked about the possibility of computers and how they might revolutionise our lives. And I honestly thought, a bit like you with your email, I just thought these women are wasting their breath. This is not going to take off.

Oh, funny. Debbie, can we talk about being a woman in a man's world? Because tech really has been a man's world, and that's backed up by all of the statistics, isn't it? Most of the coding, original coding and current coding, has been and is being done by men. There still exists... Actually, I found quite a shocking statistic about the gender pay gap.

Tech start-ups in the UK have a 26% gender pay gap, which is bad. Women make up just 16.4% of the IT engineering workforce. How do we as women, therefore, feel confident? And how do you feel confident in your job that more than half of the world's population is being properly represented and kind of looked after as well? Yeah, this is a really important topic and issue for me personally, and the company is doing a lot about this, but certainly I personally am trying to be a real leader in this space. I'd say I would answer in two ways. There's things that we're doing at Google, at our own company, and then there are things that we're sort of doing out

in the world to try to help women everywhere be more successful and even girls. We'll talk maybe a bit about what we do with Girl Guides and how we have a specific kind of digital discovery patch that we've developed with our engineers that actually encourages girls to get into STEM, which I'm pretty excited about. I was a Girl Guide myself, and my daughter was a Girl Scout as well. But within the company, we are very focused on all the sort of levers that we can pull. So representation being sort of a key one. But representation is both something that we move the needle on through hiring, but also through retention. So we want to make sure women feel like they can continue to be successful. Once you kind of bring them in, how do you make sure that they are successful, can see themselves grow and in their own careers. And certainly that's been

my experience throughout my career is looking up and sort of seeing who's up there that I can look up to and aspire to be like. And what is your retention rate? Do you have a statistic for that? Our retention rate for women is quite comparable to what it is for men. So I think that we feel pretty good about that. The way we typically look is sort of looking at equity and making sure that those statistics are roughly even. I don't have the number off the top of my head. But our numbers in terms of representation are not where they need to be. And we're very focused on that fact. So I would say it's particularly true in our engineering and technical areas. And that's why a lot of the work we're doing is not just bringing people into the company,

but making sure they feel like once they're there, they're going to stay. So we have a lot of programs around that. Just this morning, I was at a mentoring program for women at our King's Cross office. But then it's also what we're doing out in the community so that women not only can succeed at Google, but to your point, in tech in general. So we do a lot of things with the women of Silicon Roundabout. We're doing things with university programs. We're doing things, as I said, starting at Girl Guides and sort of younger girls, maybe around four to eight is when we want to do that first kind of moment when girls see the possibility of STEM careers.

And then we do a lot with founder funds. so one program we have is the black founders fund and i just recently met a woman called lottie white who was one of our recipients she has a business that she's founded and she's getting a ton of support around building a network building knowledge and kind of her ability to succeed so there's a lot we need to do for sure but we're extremely focused on making sure we're certainly engaged with people and women in particular. I mean, the other sadness is that the startup money just doesn't go very often to women, does it? It doesn't seem to. It's definitely a big opportunity, I would say. And there are some funders who are dedicated on funding female startups,

female founded companies. And, you know, we're certainly focused on mentoring and making sure that we're providing support to women founders in London, but also kind of around the world. And that is a big opportunity, I would say. What difference does it make to us as users if the code hasn't been built by women? Yeah, I mean, I think that's the really important point where we and as I shared at the beginning, we are a for everyone company. Well, if you're for everyone, to your point, you have to be for the 50% of people that are women,

50% of people that are men. We actually have a lot of our senior leadership in product now that are women. I don't know if you had a chance to watch some of our big IO, like our big kind of product launch events, but I'm really proud to see people like Sissy and people,

Kathy, Liz, like our leaders on search that are women, female leaders. And I feel like we are trying to build for everyone. Another example, not in the women's category, but something that's based here in Kings Cross that's really incredible is our Accessibility Discovery Center, where we're actually trying to help product managers understand what it's like to be differently abled or disabled when you use our products and so whether that's your hard of hearing or um you know you have issues with uh you know a tremor or something like that we want to make sure that everyone is understanding what that lived experience is so we can build for them as well i know when you got this job which is relatively recent it is very um you you said some lovely things about the uk and i know rishi Sunak is desperate for the UK to be

right at the forefront of tech. Are we? Or will we ever be? I mean, where is there any chance at all that this is going to become the go to place for tech? I find it a really thriving tech place. I mean, the history that the UK has in technology and technology development, particularly around AI. So if you think of Alan Turing and the work he was doing, some of the like really foundational work around AI was originated here. I think with the university system that we have here are some of the best in the world. And for Google, DeepMind, which... You'll have to explain exactly what that is. What is DeepMind? Oh, I'm sorry. So DeepMind is now combined with our Google research team,

and they're doing our kind of leading-edge research around AI, artificial intelligence. And it's all emanating from here in the UK. So for Google, I would say we very much feel like there is an energy that's happening in London. I would say unlike anywhere else, I'm sure my colleagues in California would be enthusiastic about what they're doing too. But I certainly feel there's an energy that's emanating from the UK

that's really, really powerful. phone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone debbie weinstein is our guest on the podcast today, MD of Google UK and Ireland. So we move the conversation on to policing the web. And I asked her if our online safety bill, which is going through Parliament at the moment, actually goes far enough and whether it is considered a global leader in terms of legislation. Well, I think the online safety bill, we're pleased that it's, I think, come to its final stages, as I understand it. We certainly haven't been waiting for the bill to take the

right actions when it comes to our products. And I think that making sure that our products are safe to be used by all sort of populations, whether it's kids or other people that are using our tools, we want to make sure they're safe for everyone. From a regulatory standpoint, I'd say that we are constantly engaged with all the different parties that work, academics and policymakers, but lots of third parties have views on regulation. And I'm glad that we've gotten this over the line

and I'm interested in the next phase where we'll actually start getting into the implementation. Is there any point in one country having a really successful online safety bill if other countries don't? I mean, it's just a, you're living in a really global world. I think that is how we definitely feel is that getting regulation right universally is most helpful, I would say for people, but also certainly for businesses when it comes to something like a regulation that you have to adjust for every geography.

One of our big opportunities we see for businesses is actually exporting their goods around the world. And so if you're a British small business owner, I met a woman when I was in Chippenham who makes wool, and she wants to find people who are knitters. This is the point on content. She wants to find people who are into the knitting everywhere, not just content she wants to find people into the knitting everywhere not just in her little in her little geography and so if you're a small business owner and you're trying to get your wool out to people in france and italy in

the u.s and canada uh making sure that there are sort of common regulatory standards is extremely helpful to you and on the much much darker I know you've mentioned that you have a daughter. It's a question that I'd ask of someone who doesn't have a daughter or a son too. How can it be that we have got to a stage in the world where there is so much harm available to our young people online and so much friction around how to clean that up? I mean, from a parental point of view, it sometimes seems absolutely absurd that any platform would be able to host something that is harmful to children full stop. Where's the argument?

Just take it down. Just don't let it reach those vulnerable minds. I totally agree. I mean, we are very focused on making sure that our products are safe to use, especially for children. And as you said, as a mom, I'm really concerned about this and focused on this myself. We have systems in place that I would say we do our best to operate at 100% perfection. And I'm sure there are times we get it wrong and try to move as quickly as we can to fix it when we do. But whether it's YouTube and sort of our policies for making sure that you can have a supervised

experience for your for your teenage kids and see what they're actually watching we have well-being tools that try to get them to turn it off which is one of the big things get people back outside and doing other things safe search which is you know if you're signed in and you're under 18 there's a safe search experience turned on by default. So there's a lot of things that we have built into our to our products. But, you know, it's an area of ongoing, really intense focus, I'd say across the company. But parental controls are tech people are notorious for making absolutely certain that their own offspring, if they have them, do not spend too much time in thrall to the kind of tech they seem perfectly happy for the rest of the world's kids to absorb 24-7 if they're able to what what do you say to

people who are deeply cynical about the methods of companies like your own and in just just the way you seem to dominate the lives of today's young people and actually most of the rest of us if we're honest well i um i i feel that we are trying to be helpful to people in their daily lives and i think we have a lot of products that help me certainly every day um you know some of my favorites certainly youtube i've worked a lot on that but maps for me is like an incredibly i've never been without your mouth an incredibly helpful product that helps us figure out how we get from one place to another and follow the little blue dot on the fastest route to school drop off or whatever. But, you know, I honestly sit here and say we are really trying to do our best. And, you know, I hear the concerns and we're constantly trying to make sure our products are as safe as they possibly can be.

You can't use Google in places like China, can you? No, you cannot use Google search. I mean, is there any way that you can, will that ever change, do you think? I mean, obviously, if the totalitarian state suddenly collapses, it might change. But you can't tweak the tech to make it possible for the people of China to search things on Google. No, there's a long history of Google's relationship in China. We were there and now we're no longer there. And I wouldn't speak to forever because forever is forever. But there are certainly no plans for us to have a product in China.

Can we just look ahead to the future, which is AI dominated and Geoffrey Hinton, known as the godfather of AI, left Google to have a freer voice, actually, to talk about the future of AI. What he had to say was truly terrifying, Debbie. How scared are you? I'm optimistic. Are you still scared? As I would be. But look, here's what I would say.

I'd say that I have not seen a technology that's developed with so much focus on the downside risk in my career that I've been working in this space. And so I think the fact that we are all considering what are the risks and the fact that we're hosting the AI Safety Summit here in the UK, I think is going to really get into that and delve into making sure we have a common definition of what the risks are and then a process and potentially institutions, et cetera,

that help us all manage that. And so we have to do the right things to make sure that we are being responsible from the start. But at the same time, when you think about what the potential is of this technology and how it can help us on issues around sustainability or healthcare, you know, the fact that you could have 8% improvement in a breast cancer diagnosis to actually know that this is either a false negative or a false positive is profound. And so I want to make sure that we get that balance right, where we can bring the benefits of this technology forward

while mitigating the risks. And so this isn't something that Google can do alone. We need to do this together with the whole industry, with other companies that are operating in this space, with governments, to your point, not just the UK, but globally. So it's a hard endeavor, but I think there is so much potential for us as a society from this technology so it's a hard endeavor but I think there is so much potential for us as

a society from this technology that I really hope we get those risks understood and mitigated so that we can bring forward the potential But do you think at the moment the Luddites when it comes to AI have got the loudest voices because you're right actually most of what comes at me just sounds

terrifying, utterly frightening and I want to hear more about the positives. Yeah. Well, here's one thing to say is that AI has actually been with us for a long time already. And I think some people don't quite realize. So let's talk about Google Maps for a second. We, I think, share a love for Google Maps. Well, I wouldn't go as far as love. Love. Oh, I love. When I moved to California, it was hard, I would say, to move to a new place with a young family, etc. I thought about writing a personal thank you note to the people who read Google Maps. Because when you move to a new place and you don't know how to get from point A to point B, it is really helpful.

Well, you used to be able to have just a map. Yes. And I also have, I remember many, many stories and massive arguments between my parents and with my now husband about wasn't the turning back there and so the map was upside down i feel that we have saved many many relationships as a result of google maps um but in all seriousness like so so you think about how ai shows up there so we launched recently a product that helps you with um sort of a way to manage your carbon footprint and have eco-friendly routes so if you go on google today, there's a little green leaf by the one that's more eco-friendly. How is that done?

Well, it basically looks at historic traffic patterns on whatever route you're making, and it gives you a recommendation on this is the one that is likely to produce the least amount of carbon. And as a result of that, I think that's only about a year old, it's equivalent to taking 250,000 cars off the road, diesel cars or fuel based. Do you have to be an electric car to really make it work? No, no, it's for it's for anybody, because it's based on the route that you're going to take and the degree to which you can stay at the same speed, you know, all the things that that contribute to generating carbon. So that's a really small example. But for me, that's actually been with us for a long time these AI kind of improvements on Google Maps

or the fact that if you go into search it'll sometimes auto-complete for you or it'll spell check for you right if some of us don't remember how to spell things or if you're speaking American English and you come to the UK you've got to get your your proper vowels in there so those are all things that are AI driven honestly and so people I think, interact with AI more maybe than they, than they realize. So that's one of the things we try to remind people of. But the thing that we seem to be being told at the moment is that the genie is somewhere already out of its box, and that it's too late to change some things that have been, you know, the way that AI has been kind of impregnated might actually be a malicious force in the future. Do you think that's true?

I mean, I think that AI is one of, like any technology, has, you know, many evolutions. And it's a giant umbrella concept that actually encompasses so many different things. It's the autocorrect. It's the help you get somewhere faster. It is a technology, I think, that can be used in many different ways. And so it's hard to answer that question because I don't think it's not like what the work that Alan Turing was doing. And it's very hard to go back to that moment and unlearn what he was doing. So

I think what we want to really focus on is the impact that this technology can have that we all want to avoid and make sure that we're really clear eyed about where the risks are and govern sort of that use. And I think that's the place that we really need to focus most. Maybe one day AI is going to switch off all the maps and there'll be a whole generation of people that doesn't know how to get anywhere with each other and don't get from A to B ever again. Can we just have a quick word from you on how what your qualifications are genuinely because people will be listening thinking how i mean how do i become this woman how does my daughter get to be this woman what

does she need to do does she need a degree in i don't know one thing or another what is the answer to that yeah well i don't think there is a single answer i often will speak to young people like i said when i graduated uni, the Internet barely existed. But what was your degree in? My degree was in international relations and economics. Oh, OK. Right. So I would say economics is sometimes considered a dismal science, but not exactly a science in the computer science sense. So my answer is usually that you can study lots of things. And I think that it's more about, for me, academics, it was more about learning how to reason and learning how to write and learning how to make arguments and things like that, which I think is a useful skill forever. I'm often asked about, gosh, I'm reading these stories that AI actually can do computer coding, and we've just trained this whole generation.

They need to get into STEM. Well, what if the AI is actually able to do computer coding? whole generation they need to get into STEM. Well, what if the AI is actually able to do computer coding? The reality is it's about having a comfort with technology, which is why I think things like the girl guiding is so important, making sure young people are comfortable with technology, girls and boys. But then I think that the disciplines of the humanities are still super relevant, possibly more relevant than ever. If you think about the risks that we're thinking about, so degrees in philosophy and understanding history and sociology and psychology.

I mean, those things, I think all remain incredibly relevant. And your very first job was? My very first job was in investment banking. Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs. That was a long time ago.

Did you know Rishi Sunak? I did not know Rishi Sunak, no. But I think, yes, I think he's after me, actually. He'll be back there soon. Google is very well known for its kind of futuristic places of work. So here in the UK, in London, you've got two big sites. There were allotments on the roof, weren't there?

Are they still there? They are still there. Okay. Do you still have a pick and mix bar in your cafeteria? Do you still have massage rooms and wellness centres? We are very committed to our well-being of our employees. Do you still have a, what would you call it, like a soft play, a ball kind of park? A ball pit, yes.

You do? A ball pit. I think there is still a ball pit, yes. Okay, that's very unhygienic. Unhygienic, I agree, I agree. Possibly was closed during COVID, but yeah. Do you have a crush? We do not have a crush in this office.

We do have some incredible facilities in the Bay Area, nursery schools and things of that nature. You can't go and drop your kid off and go and be at work for 8.30. It's a good thought. Debbie Weinstein, our guest today. And I think the crush at work thing, Jane, I just think it's still hugely important and it is a bit of a bugbear of mine

that officers can be celebrated for all of their glorious other things. But the thing that would help out so many parents, and let's not just say mums, so many parents, is if early years child care could be in the same building as you well i could not agree more i mean it's got to it's slightly farcical the way we we seem to encourage the notion that having a child is some sort of feminine

indulgence that it's something we just want we need People need to repopulate this country. We do need people to have children. But I don't think it's that, and I think the workplace crash is just such a hugely important... Well, how much easier would it be to encourage them? Yeah, but balancing out the parenting. Because I see so many dads dropping their little ones off at nurseries all around us.

You know, we live in a really high density part of London. And in order really to afford to rent or live in that part of London, I think both parents, if you've got both your parents, are working. It's just a fact, you know, there really aren't very many stay at home mums. So you'll see loads and loads of dads out at you know quarter to eight in the morning child screeching in a buggy off they you know they've got to get to nursery they've got to get to this different destination before they can then go to work so there's all of the geography of that obviously it could be the mum too i put the dad first there jane but also just

that feeling do you remember that feeling of having to leave your tiny one? I really struggled with that. And if I could have been closer to both of my children when they were tiny and I went back to work, I just would have been so much happier. If I just knew that they were in the same building, it would have been lovely. It shouldn't be impossible. I don't know. Can there be any logical explanation?

Is it health and safety? Is it insurance? What is stopping major employers from doing this? I think there are two things. I think the cost of it is high. And I think some companies actually want you to shut out quite a lot of your other life. And when you come to work, you are fully focused. And there's quite a lot of your other life and when you come to work fully focused you are fully focused and there's quite a lot of evidence that you know if you put in a gym you know a cinema room whatever it is all of those kind of more playful things then you keep your

employees in the building they stay longer they work harder but google uk they've got an allotment they've got allotments on the roof and they've got pick and mix they certainly have and they've got a ball pit they certainly have okay can we just combine the themes of the day with this enchanting email from karen please do in 1989 whilst my seven-year-old was staying with her grandmother she was thrilled that her granny's dead dog had jumped on her bed in the night to visit her. She thought the dog had come back to life until she stroked her and her hand just went straight through it.

Her hand went straight through her. Do that again. It wasn't until she was in her late 20s that she revealed that this had happened to her. My mother revealed that this dog was actually a regular visitor. It used to race around the garden. She had just left the world too early. Wow. Spooky.

I don't know whether the dog did any ghostly doggy-dos. We'll have to assume not. Right. What? Are you dressing up for Halloween tonight? I have done, yes. This is it. OK.

Will you be answering the door? No, well, actually, we've witted on so long that I don't think there'll be time. It's always my intention to go on so long that I don't have to do any trick-or-treating guests tonight. Are you one of those very, very health-conscious neighbours who just has some really lovely satsumas and a little wooden toy for the kiddies?

I'll put out my plate of carrot batons so they can help themselves. Lovely. OK, happy Halloween, everybody. Yes, get spookin'. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so

of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive.

Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at 3 o'clock Monday until Thursday every week and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. what's happening on your iPhone screen. Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open.

Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.