Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Tinkle those ivories like there's no tomorrow (with Alice Roberts)

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

There's yet another reference to an appendage today – we can only apologise; our minds are in the gutter! After that, Jane and Fi consider whether they would've been accused of being witches, discuss Barry Manilow and his manager Gary, and ask which children's TV theme tunes made your blood run cold. Plus, Professor Alice Roberts discusses her upcoming documentary series, presented alongside Rylan Clark, ‘Witches of Essex’. We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And I think it's just worth saying that perhaps our problem with our book was that we did write it. We did write us. We've done better. It's employed somebody else. I mean, we've got someone good. America is changing. And so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval.

It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London. And this is the global story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is The Business.

A new weekly podcast from The Times and the Sunday Times. With me, Hannah Previtt, the Sunday Times Associate Business Editor. And me, Dominic O'Connell from Times Radio. From boom to bust, the business tells you the inside story. From the high street to the boardroom, will bring you unparalleled insight. We'll talk to unicorns, market movers and city CEOs. Join us every Thursday. Search for The Business from The Times on your podcast app.

You're the business. No, Helly, you're the business. No. This is the business. The business is sponsored by PWC. This episode of Offair is sponsored by Tenor. Let's talk about something that affects so many of us, but we don't always feel comfortable discussing, menopause.

And that's why Tenor is sponsored. partnering with us to spark open and empowering conversations on the topic. They want to help normalise the conversation, reduce the stigma and drive real change for women's health and well-being during menopause. That's right, Jane Tenor is committed to supporting menopausal women by elevating their well-being and their proud partners of Gen M, an organisation working to normalise menopause conversations and drive systemic change. And part of that is helping women rethink bladder weakness, seeing it not as a limitation, but as something they can manage confidently and proactively. The new tenor-discreet ultra-pads are designed with real women's

needs in mind. They're now even thinner, but they still offer triple protection against leaks, odour and moisture. So why not try the new tenor-discreet ultra-pads for yourself? They're thinner, but they have that triple protection you'd expect from the experts at tenor. If you want to Learn more and explore their menopause support resources, visit tenor.co.com.uk. Oh dear. We're having a laugh here. Eve's pretty convinced, because our guest today, we should say, is Professor Alice Robertson. She's talking about a new mini-documentary series that she's got out. It'll be, is it in the sky?

is on the sky and it's called the Witches of Essex and it's fascinating I just defy anybody not to be interested in witchery and how it came about and it's just a bucket of misogyny isn't it that gets poured on these poor

unfortunate women who get blamed for all of the evils in the world and it's full of useful pieces of information including the myth of the broomstick is because it was a kind of titillating penis related and I'm sorry to have mentioned that we've just become obsessed with the appendage on this podcast it's got to stop Jane

but the broomskin has stopped but I didn't know that about the broomstick so it's astonishing finish the thought well so it was the depiction it was meant to be a titillating depiction of these kind of mad old crones who were deemed to be witches but the

artists who were male wanted to put in some kind of you know the metaphorical penis had to be there so that is what the broomstick is. That's why these women were depicted as being on broomsticks. I think you've got to rework Harry Potter in your head,

haven't you? You really have. I tell you what, these shows do prove that, honestly, we are and we're never grateful enough for being born when we were. I know, Jane, because you and I would have gone down. Well, I mean, even vaguely clever women have never really caught

on as a species. We're normally the first ones in the line of fire. Blame for absolutely everything. But with our shared love of cat and poor eyesight I think we would have been dunked before we'd reach the age of consent which was about 12.

It's properly grim and also just in the very first episode it's about three utterly impoverished women and anyone who goes on about the people on benefits just every now and again have a word with yourself, there was a time when there was

nothing. Literally nothing. And people would have to go begging at the village at the village stump for a gnarled old crossed. But isn't it interesting that so this is all set in Essex and Hatfield Peverell which was the kind of heartland of the first witch

trials where women and it was 90% women I mean there was some male male male male male male malevolence in there at some points too but where they could be hanged couldn't they for the witchery but it's a hop skip and a jump from there

to Epping where there is and there is a theme of Things are going badly wrong in our wider world. Everybody needs a focus and somebody to go and pick on and shout at. And they're only down the road, those two. It's a little bit... Do you know, you just reminded me, the Bell... It was the Bell Hotel in Epping.

Yeah. And that features in Penny Lancaster's book, doesn't it? Oh, it does, because Penny Lancaster has a family. Yeah, they have a family event there. Anyway, sorry, that's completely... Tantan... One of those. but also it's a theme of the week here on off air

we are very carefully produced and tomorrow's interview is with Philippa Gregory about how women were treated at the Tudor Court which wasn't a barrel of laughs either fee but we started off the podcast laughing because I mean it's quite a kind of I assume that everybody has the same position on witches which is it was incredibly nasty

an unfortunate and horrible thing to do which was just always picking on women and inventing these stories about them and then drowning them to see whether they bobbed up again and it's just all horrible but Eve's point was that some of them must have been witches by the law of ours witches and I loved that

she hoped some of them were no but it's a fresh take oh yes it is a fresh take you want to write can you write 750 words on that and we'll stick it in the times It's great We're always looking Everyone's looking for the fresh take

They are I think he's often got the fresh take Right Dining Rooms Can we just do this very quickly Because some of our listeners Have Dining Rooms We should have known

Well we should have known I mean not all of them Are living in stately homes This is from Claire Yes we have a dining room Not because we have a huge house Quite the contrary It sounds lovely by the way Claire

It's a really old Lakeland Cottage With two reception rooms The kitchen is tiny. It's a right pain in the arse. Very antisocial, although this does have its advantages at times. Yeah, you don't have to be social, do you? The house isn't ours. We've rented it for 19 years, so we can't really change it. Our dream is a beautiful, open plan, Kirsty knock through. But our views are amazing. And yes, even now, with our teens, we still sit at the table to eat meals when we're all in together, and we all use it to separately eat at as well. It does overtime as a place for homework, working from home, and the hamster is in situ there as well. Over the years, we have swapped the dining and sitting room round to suit our changing needs. Maybe we'll retire to a new build one day, but actually can't imagine not having at least a dining table. I'm off to sleep, she says, before a night shift. Okay, Claire, I hope you ever had a good sleep.

Thank you for that. That's interesting, isn't it? If you have a rental property, is it always true that you can't do any, you can't make any substantial changes? It's been a while since I rented, I must admit, I did rent it in my 20s throughout my 20s. But, and I think that's true, isn't it? You certainly can't knock a wall it through or do anything like that. And you can't, you know, just put a lick of paint on it?

No, not without the landlord's permission. Really? God, okay. That's interesting. Okay, interesting as well that Claire says the views are. absolutely beautiful. I imagine it is in an old Lakeland cottage. That is such a privilege to live in that absolutely wonderful part of the world. And briefly from Anne, who's in Reading, I moved house a year ago and I specifically wanted a dining room with a door that can be closed. Now I have one and I'm delighted. I don't want to entertain in the kitchen. Who wants to see

all my food prep chaos? I haven't thought about that because I very rarely entertain, but I guess I guess that's true You're throwing all your utensils around There might be a stain or two on a kitchen surface And your guests are going to be horribly exposed to it all Well really you should clean up as you go Shouldn't you? Yes

We've got a long galley kitchen Which I think Whoever buys the house Will just immediately knock out the side return And have a great big open plan thing Me Jiggy what's it But I always really loved it For that reason

that I could hide away everything that I was doing and also it did mean that there was a boundary between me and the kids when they were tiny so they'd be watching television and they did watch television Oh no after they put down their Latin primers and stopped doing their weaving

they were allowed to watch a small piece of BBC 4 but they could watch the TV and so we felt like we were all in the same room but actually I did have just a little bit of a disconnect and I came to love that wall because sometimes you do you just want to go and have a little bit of you want to go and do something on your own actually

don't you? But you can't when you've got two kids at home you've got to be keeping an eye on them all the time so it worked very well for me and so I'm not sure that I would mind a dining room I think I'd quite like a dining room we haven't got a dining room but I think I'd quite like one we've got a dining table in the conservatory

where's yours? In the kitchen okay do you know I've been meaning to get rid of my dining table ever since I got it really. Have you? What would you do? A nicer one. Oh, I see. Right. Just don't really like it. One of those things that every time I see it, I think, oh, God.

How long have you been there? Well, the table's been there 15 years. Okay. I do procrastinate. Work in progress. Which children's TV show theme, if you hear it, can still chill your blood. Oh, um, uh, do, do, do, do, do... Thomas the Tank. Do, do, do, do.

Yeah. I did potty training in front of Thomas a Tank invention, so that's where the connection comes. Oh, lovely. It worked. It worked a treat. A thought on the BNA's storehouse. I went to the storehouse a couple of weeks ago,

says Annie from Stratford upon Avon with my son and his partner. We loved it, but my son's partner nailed it when he said it looks like a sort of vintage IKEA. And I think that's absolutely brilliant. It totally and utterly does. Would you like to hear some thoughts about ghostwriters? Yes, because we're heading towards Halloween. Let's talk.

We've done... I'd never miss an opportunity to talk spooky. Okay. Well, this comes in from Tom, who says, I was fascinated to hear Claire Balding, already causing chaos in the traitors, being forced to repeatedly shout that she had written her new novel herself.

What a state of affairs? I remember that feed teased an email sent in by a ghost writer, apparently it was really really brilliant did I miss it has it emerged from fees folder of correspondence I was intrigued and I've been waiting with baited breath

it sounds like an email that deserves an airing I'm also interested to know what your feelings are about ghost written books headlining literary festivals while I absolutely understand festivals needing to get big names to put bums on seats why can't we have an event where the ghost are the author and personality

are sat side by side I'd be first in the queue for that I'm aware that the wonderful writer Anna Wharton has spoken very movingly of working with the incredible Wendy Mitchell, who I know Jane has interviewed multiple times, and listening to her talk about the process of writing together was fascinating. So Wendy Mitchell was the lady who had dementia, and she got a very early diagnosis. She was only in her late 50s, and she had a great deal of richly deserved success with her writing about being a person with dementia. and she died actually I think now two years ago

and she has appeared on this podcast so if you want to go back and have listened to it so I think you had done her quite a few times hadn't you at the hour of the woman yes because she was very powerful Wendy Mitchell because she was very very brave and I don't think for one minute it's easy to navigate that diagnosis but she she'd actually had a

she said herself an interesting personality change She'd been very diffident, very much a back office person. She'd had an NHS admin job, all her working life, really. And here she was on National Radio talking about a pretty tricky medical diagnosis. So in her case, it had changed her, well, in every way. She had become very public, and I thought she was astonishing. So she was utterly brilliant, and I would defy anybody to have met her in person and not fallen a little bit in love with her.

And actually when she came in to do the interview, view here. We were sitting in this very studio and she came in and I was already sitting down and she looked at the view behind us and she said, oh, Fee, that building over there and we were looking at it and I thought she was going to say, oh, you know, St Paul's or whatever. And she said, oh, I'm going to do some absailing down that the week after next. It was just like you're going to do what? What, love? She was just brilliant, really, really brilliant. But you're right, Tom, because, you know, of course, she felt it was completely appropriate to name the person who was helping her write

because it would have been incredibly, it just would have been ridiculous for her to publish a book and say that she had written it all herself because what she was explaining in the book was her inability to still do the things that she used to be able to do. So I might not read some of the rest of your email just because it's got names in it.

And that is the huge problem at the moment, Tom. whether or not we can actually be honest about the people who we interview who we kind of, we just know that they haven't written the book and there'll be a name in the acknowledgements that we might recognise as meaning that there's a very talented ghostwriter involved in this but we are still a long way from that ghostwriter

being able to sit on the stage and talk about the writing process too. With reference to the ghost writing email, that is coming up and it's going to come out as one of our Friday bonus episodes because Jane and I have done that interview with our ghostwriter who wrote in to the programme. So would that be this week or this week? This Friday, Tom.

It's coming at you this Friday. And we completely, I completely agree with everything that you said in your email. I think it's the next big kind of, I think it's the next Ida down that's going to slide off the bed. What, in terms of a big reveal? And I think we're going to stop pretending

that these people have actually written their own books because once this conversation starts, I don't think it just goes away, does it? No, I mean, there are lots of notable examples, aren't there? Who was the retired jockey who was supposed to have written loads of thrillers, but he hadn't? Oh, Dick Francis. His wife wrote them.

Oh, I didn't know that. I think so. Yeah, he's dead, so I think we're okay. But yeah, it wasn't him. So I think it's kind of a, is that different from being a ghost writer, it's not, is it? Do you remember that amazing film? Did I mention this the other day, Glenn Close and Jonathan Price? And it was, I think it was Jonathan Price.

He'd won the Nobel Prize for literature. Oh, the wife won, yes. And it was actually, have we given it away? Well, it's a spoiler, but you've probably seen that film by now. Yes. She was the author all along. Yeah. Should we give away the plot to ghosts as well?

were written by the fabulous Robert Harris. Oh no, that's one of my favourite films ever and I'm not going to ruin that for anybody. It's really brilliant, but it's about ghost writing too. So it's there throughout time, I think some of those, I'd think some of those Greek philosophers.

I think most of the work was being done by Diana. And I think it's just worth saying that perhaps our problem with our book was that we did write it. We did write us. You would have done better. If only, we'd got someone good. No, I think there's some good.

I think actually, sister, I think there are some good bits in that book. I've always stood by that book. No, we've turned out to talk about the things that everybody talks about now very, very openly. Did you know that's a good point? So with Christmas coming up. Yeah, would you like a copy? Yes, please. I've got some.

Signed. And so have I. So I don't want that, thank you. Lynn is a satisfied customer. And we don't get many of those. So it's just worth acknowledging. And worth acknowledging, too, the gargantuan efforts of our colleague, because Lynn has not only received a copy of the Ken Follett book Circle of Days

but she has sent us a photograph of herself in her beautiful home in New Zealand clutching the copy that I had had in my scummy old mitts only last week and it's now in Lynn's hands instead. Well it's got there very quickly because it was a thumping hardback wasn't it? Yeah I mean it's 700 pages that one. I should think it'll show up on the profit and loss of the radio station love. That's true.

My mighty Ken arrived this morning, she says. Photo taken in our supposed spring. Oh, now, with a Kohai tree in full bloom? I don't know. And a light drizzle. Jane, the excuse notes that you wrote for your sister, this is when I used to try and get her off hockey, were more successful than one of my older sister's efforts.

She and a friend had dallyed on their way to school and realized everybody else was in class. They found writing materials and penned an excuse. I imagine the missive was shared around. around the staff room. As in crayon, on the inside of an empty cigarette packet picked up off the street, six-year-old Annette had written, we are sorry we are late, Mrs. E.A. White. That's brilliant. Obviously, a much- treasured family anecdote. Lynn, the delighted is how she styles herself now, because she's got her Ken, and she's now going to be busy for probably the next decade.

But, Lynn, lovely that you've got it, and thank you for just being a part of whatever this is. I think we'd like a short review of the book when you have managed to get through it. Why not? Because Jane hasn't finished it. Incoming from Laura Sequera, who joins us from Hove, not Brighton. I've just finished Just Kids

and I wanted to offer some encouragement and hope to listeners who've been finding it hardgoing. It is really worth staying with. It becomes a moving portrait of a unique friendship and artistic collaboration, as well as documenting the alternative subversive art scene in 1970s, New York. Thank you for the great book club choice, Laura.

P.S. I'm the one who washes all my whites and colours together, still going strong with no disasters. I still smile remembering fees, horrified reaction. Well, here's another one. That's ridiculous, Laura. How can you manage to do that? There must be a greying of the whites. I think we need to see our whites.

Yes, I'd like some photographic evidence. I'm very much with you here. It just couldn't possibly. It couldn't possibly work. My pearls are well and truly clutched, which brings me to Julie, long-time listener from British Columbia and Canada. I was listening to you two yesterday when you were discussing Taylor Swift's new album. My 40-year-old daughter and my granddaughters, who are 14 and 17, are huge fans of Taylor. My daughter heard you going on about the lyric to Wood.

I had to laugh as she said, oh, clutch your pearls, ladies. Listen to the song and you realise it's not such a big deal. Right. Well, we've been told by Julie's daughter. I have listened to the song and I just don't think it's a particularly good song I mean it's not one that I'm going to return to not because I am absolutely horrified

I just don't really I wouldn't hum along I wouldn't sing along to a song like that but I just don't think it's one of her best but I do think she's getting all kinds of flak Jane for having lost her creative uvra and genius because she's found happiness

and I really hate that argument. I think it's a really interesting argument. But it's not really an argument, is it? It's a theory, but isn't all the best art actually created from pain and sadness? And isn't that true of all art throughout history? Books, songwriting. Yes, the misery vein is a very, very, you know, creative one, isn't it?

But I just don't like this attitude that, I mean, I think quite a lot of Taylor Swift, recent stuff hasn't been amazing but it's because it sounds like the stuff that she did before so I don't like the condemnation of you know now she's found happiness with somebody that's the reason why she can't conjure up some kind of bliss I think she's just you know she's written so much stuff

that it's all got a little bit stuck she is prodigious I mean her outposts god jean I mean she wrote this latest album when she was on her era's tour. I mean, most of us would just be lying down in a dark room. Well, you know what she was doing. She had the energy, really. Let's leave it there.

This one comes. Anyway, if you've written something, painted something, made something when you're happy, could you show it to us, please? And if you are that creative person who makes a living out of some kind of artistic merit, tell us where the most kind of potent force comes from and whether or not a happy event in your life

can jolt that kind of creativity too I wonder whether it's different depending on the art form let's say you're a potter I mean if you're angry you're not going to be able to make a wonderful pot are you because it's going to be all skewif and it's just going to look peculiar and you'll have made it with rage and it won't be something that people want to have in their home

so it may depend on the art form that is your choice. Why are you laughing, Eve? It's a bit too open university for you all this, is it? That sounds like quite a nice pot. You want a pot of rage. She wants to believe in witches. She wants pots of rage.

What's happening to? Martin is a man and he's emailed. Genitalia, Father Christmas and no sack comment. Well done. I thought you showed enormous restraint. I sense Garvey was about to explode with the pressure. But it's a crap old world at the moment. So do keep being occasionally flippant, says Martin.

I think we sort of meet with Martin's approval. It's slightly hard to tell. But that was in reference to our conversation about life drawing. Thank you, Martin. To be fair, and to be honest, Martin, I hadn't actually thought, I wasn't particularly on my game and I haven't thought of the sack comment.

So I'm really angry with myself now. Okay. Yeah. You're thinking of nothing else now. I'm trying to cleanse your palate. Which is good. My bike was stolen in London. I got it back without the Met Police.

Now, this is an article that's been very kindly forwarded to me by Linda and it's an article that's in the Times today and it's about one of our much younger colleagues who works elsewhere in the Times Empire and she had her bike stolen in London and do you know what Jane? From the same bike rack

that mine was stolen from. So I opened the article courtesy of Linda. It's a complete spate I opened it and I just couldn't believe it it was the rack that mine went from as well. So I wonder whether they

did that thing. A friend of mine said they're using dry ice now. So if you've got a big D-lock, stop me when this gets too technical for you, they're squirting liquid nitrogen in because it freezes it and then they bash them with a hammer and that's how they get them off. So you don't have to use an axle grinder. Okay, but surely, is this done under cover of darkness? No, so these bike racks are in a very, very prominent place with loads and loads of people walking past. But everyone just ignores it. Well, they do. And, you know, my bad, I've seen bikes being nicked. So I've seen a guy come along with an axle grinder, the pub that I live opposite, you know, about 1 o'clock in the morning. And I was woken up by the noise of it, because it's

quite loud. And there was a guy who was just soaring through bike locks. And did I go out and confront him? No, I didn't. I filmed it. I wouldn't I. And then I phoned, I was going to say 1-1-1, but that's... That's the NHS. What's the local? Is it once? 101. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank God you're here. Although they normally tell you to call 999. Well, they said, you know, do you feel threatened by this? And I have to say no, but I've got video if you'd like to sit. But of course, there's no point. I mean, it's just, it's a, it was definitely a bloke in a hoodie who was just taking some bikes. But our colleague was very brave and she hunted hers down on Gumtree and then arranged to meet the person who was.

was flogging it on Gumtree. Who was trying to sell her own bike back to her? Yes, yeah. And ironically, it's a great piece to read when she turned up and she took some friends with her. So she'd phoned the police and said, I found the bike. Would you come with me?

And initially they'd said yes. And then they said, actually, no, we can't get anyone to you. And for goodness sake, don't go yourself. She took two friends with her. They turned up to meet this guy. So he turns up on a bike wearing a balaclava. Nothing to see here. no semblance of guilt in this image at all.

Am I suspicious? And he said to her, oh, you're about 20 minutes late. I thought you were scamming me. She's like, you've got my bike. I'm not scamming you. Audacity. I know. You're scamming me.

Yes, and then she said, that is my bike. And he just gave it to her and cycled off. Right. Yeah, but I'm not brave enough to do that, Jane. No, I don't, I wouldn't, well, neither of us are in a position to recommend that other people act in such a fashion. But nevertheless, well, on her. But my God. It's a sorry state of affairs, isn't it? Well, it is a bit. Yeah, it is. It's just

not good to have anything pinched. It makes you feel really angry and vulnerable and generally pissed off. I'm Adam Vaughn, Environment Editor at the Times. And in Planet Hope, we meet the people tackling our biggest environmental and scientific challenges, from saving penguins in Patagonia to helping people of paralysis to move again. These are stories of science, courage and hope. Follow Planet Hope wherever you get your podcasts. Planet Hope is brought to you by The Times in paid partnership with Rolex and its perpetual planet initiative.

This is The Business. A new weekly podcast from The Times and the Sunday Times. With me, Hannah Previtt, the Sunday Times Associate Business Editor. And me, Dominic O'Connell from Times Radio. From boom to bust, the business tells you the inside story. From the high street to the boardroom, we'll bring you unparalleled insights. We'll talk to unicorns, market movers and city CEOs. Join us every Thursday.

Search for the business from the Times on your podcast app. You're the business. No, Hedy, you're the business. No. This is the business. The business is sponsored by PWC. Some happy stuff from Judith. My husband referred to affectionately in previous emails as my very own Mr. Rigsby is not a Cliff Richard fan.

Well, okay, but he does have a penchant for Barry Manilow. Now, many is the occasion that I've switched on the car after he's been in it, and Mandy has blasted out at full volume. This can be embarrassing if the window is open. A couple of years ago, he did that ill-advised thing they sometimes do and thought for himself. independently and without consultation he bought two tickets to see Baza in concert I naturally

says Judith refused to go Well I don't know whether I can fully support you there You see because I would have gone to Barry Manilow If somebody had bought me a ticket without question He's got some great tunes Which is your favourite Well Mandy is a great song Club Tropicana is a banger

He's got some really sad songs as well Which are sort of And he's a great artiste is Barry so I would have gone, but that's me. So poor old Mr Rigsby went on his Todd. On entering the arena, he declared inwardly that he could smell the menopause. He sat there for two hours, Norman no-mates,

surrounded by ladies, waving his torch, singing along, swaying away, and frankly loving every minute of it. He said that Barry was rather thin with a permanently surprised expression but did pot on an amazing show, and that I can believe. To make his experience even more special,

and living up to his subrichet, he'd sold my ticket at a profit. Recently, Barry has, to everyone's amazement, come out. That's true, he has. I'm not sure how my husband took the news, whether his illusions were shattered, or whether he saw, in his wildest dreams, a glimmer of deranged hope. Either way, he cites his evening with Barry as one of his best ever.

Listen, I like the sound of your husband. He likes Barry Manolo, and he's gone along to say, see him. I'm all for that. I mean, good for him. Why not? But also, I rather like Judith's dry turn of phrase. No, I do too. Excellent. To everyone's surprise. Not really.

So, I went to the Liberace Museum once in Las Vegas. Extraordinary place. It's kind of low level, one story. It's kind of in an industrial unit series of rooms that you can go around and it's got all his pianos in and all that kind of stuff. And it's a

complete mecca, obviously, for Liberace fans. But it's not like mecca. No, but it's a mecca for fans. To be careful with that phrase. I always found it fascinating. Yes, okay. It's a shrine, it's an altar.

And other religions are available. I don't know. Well, what did you? All right, BBC Babs. Well, I went round because I was in town. I was in Las Vegas. I was going to do something different.

And, I mean, it's superb. I mean, the guy was such a showman and all that kind of stuff. But to Judith's point of, to everybody's surprise, there were two women who had come on a huge coach trip from somewhere, very, very long way away, specifically to see the Liberace Museum. And I followed you, you had to book tickets

and kind of go in this line. So I was behind them all of the way and they were chit-chattering or whatever. And then right at the end on the final exhibit, one of them turned to the other and said, oh my gosh, it's such a shame you never married. You just think, well, how can you? have been around this

museum of love and been a fan for such a long time and to think that it might have been possible yes my mother went to see Liberace live at the Liverpool Empire did she have a similar sensation she had no she had no idea he was gay

it just wasn't it just never crossed their mind apparently no and it's I don't know is it a bit I mean in Barry Manilow's case I'm sure that somewhere in that storyline is him not being able to feel that he could come out and keep his fan base if he was married to Gary as manager, which he is now, and how lovely and good luck to them.

So it's Barry and Gary. It's Barry and Gary. Right. Yeah, so times have changed. But anyway, I just, I loved them. These two ladies, they were just having such a lovely time, and they were genuinely sad that he hadn't ever met the right woman. And you felt that they felt it could have been them.

And that's often the allure from the stage. Did Mo have the same feeling? I don't, I think she might have been with Ray. And Ray, Liberace, spot the difference. There is one. There are a lot, actually. So I think probably she wouldn't have been attracted to Liberace, considering she married somebody who played to rugby union

and was definitely very much the other side of that fence. By the way, though, there are gay rugby union players. Yes, there are. There are more gay rugby players than there are gay football. football players apparently. Well, certainly out, anyway. And what did she like about his music? Because actually, that's what slightly baffled me as well.

I think it wasn't the music. That wasn't referenced. It was, he was a showman. And he wore these quite extraordinary gowns, didn't he? Well, that's what you can see in the museum. And they are mind-boggling. Especially made. Especially made.

And with these huge capes behind them and all bejewled and whatever. I mean, it's just an incredible setup. I'm not musical, but I guess. he was an astonishing pianist. I mean, he really could tickle those ivories like there was no tomorrow. Why? Well, of course, you shouldn't...

You should do your tickling today and you shouldn't tickle an ivory anyway because that doesn't happen anymore. I think it actually has to be composite plastic on a keyboard, doesn't it? Right. Okay. That's the point to take from that phrase. Very much so. Okay, dokey. Well, I wonder

whether, gosh, we've covered, once again, somehow, we've covered some ground. Or there are many ways we haven't? In other ways, we definitely haven't. Have you seen that story today about the extraordinary dinosaur footprints in a gravel pit? No, I haven't.

Apparently, it's some story about... I'm quite busy reading about peace in the Middle East, but yeah. No, but in a funny way, it just makes you think that for all the importance we put on so much about our lives and the pettiness and the ludicrous rivalries and religious conflict and all the rest of it, these revolting creatures were thumping around exactly this planet 155 million years ago. Yeah, no, it is a good thought. When I went to go home last night, there was a guy who was dressed up as an almost life-size rhinoceros,

who was trying to get on the northbound Jubilee line and it was funny. He couldn't even fit through the wide gate that you need to go through if you've got buggies or whatever at the top of the tube and he was obviously going to some kind of a demonstration. Well, you say that.

He had saved the rhino. Oh, I see, right, okay. But the Jubilee line is very, very hot already at this time and you just thought this is incredible and when he went to get on the train, the train door couldn't shut because his tail was looking at the end. So, yeah, I mean, let's hear it for all great, big, enormous creatures.

Let's try and keep them on the planet as long as possible, just with their comedy value when a human dresses up as them. Exactly. Thank you very much for that, wholesome, and I think very positive thought. Let's move on to the much more sinister conversation we're about to hear about witches. Now, if you were a woman living in poverty in the 16th century without a man to protect you, perhaps you've lost your husband or your father and brothers died young, and if you have a cat and if bad things start happening

in your community, particularly in Essex, then it's quite likely you'd find yourself called a witch and tried at court by many who had the power to put you to death. Professor Alice Roberts investigates exactly this scenario in her latest documentary series on Sky starts tonight and is simply called the Witches of Essex. Professor Alice Roberts joins us now. Hello, how are you?

Hello, very good, very good. Yeah, it's a dark period in history that we're looking at here. Well, isn't it just? Now, explain the significance of Essex. What was going on there? It did seem to be a bit of a hotbed for these accusations. And the series covers three different cases, one of which focuses on a family, another on the wider community

and another one where we meet the witch finder general. But it really does seem to have been a kind of culture of fear and superstition that did seem to have been peculiarly concentrated. in Essex. Why would that be though? I mean, some of the reason perhaps simply that it was very close to London, closer to the court. So in terms of the trials, it was just a easy place to dispatch these men who would then try these women. Yeah, I think it's really hard to pin a reason on that kind of concentration of these accusations and these early rich tolls being in Essex. But I suppose, you know, it had to start somewhere.

It was going to start. What's interesting about it is how much it's tied up with personal ambition and vested interests of powerful men. And I think for me particularly, you know, that's what I was particularly interested in looking at these trials. In the series, we kind of put the trials on trial, as it were, try to understand what was actually going on, try to understand, you know, why these women are being accused, who has to, who's going to gain from that? and why this particular time? Because it's such a strange time. And especially when you get into the 17th century,

you know, this is the century of the Enlightenment. This is when science is really taking off. It's when the Royal Society is instituted. So you've got that on the one hand. And then you've got this terrible superstition, ripping communities apart. And, you know, they went all the way with this. They accused the witches.

They found them guilty and they hanged hundreds of women. What meant that you could be accused of being a witch if we stick in the 16th century? Yeah, if we start on the 16th century, I mean, this is interesting. So the first case which we cover in the program tonight is basically the first time that Elizabeth I first witchcraft act of 1553 is put into action. And so first of all, there was the legal framework to do this. There was a law which said witchcraft is a thing. It's a crime and you can be found guilty of it and punished accordingly. So there was the legal framework to do it and then it was done.

So if we look at who's being accused and it's a family that's being accused in this first case, they are poor people they are women on their own who don't have men to defend them I suspect there's an element of although they're poor I suspect there's an element of seizing their property as well once they are hanged

and it's just it is just dreadful to kind of follow those cases and see how those women are kind of I don't know I kind of ended up feeling that they were in the courtroom in a kind of centre of a spider's web with these well-educated men constructing these arguments against them. And I don't know if those men really believed what they were, what they were arguing and, and what they were accusing them of. But they could certainly construct an

argument in court that would, that would kind of carry through. And you can just see those women, you know, eventually being forced into confessing. Yeah, which they do. We don't want to give away too much of the case because, you know, it's a very decent watch, but this is Agnes, Joan and Elizabeth, who you can completely understand as vulnerable women in that society would simply not have been equipped to appear in court and understand everything that's going on around them. It is also, isn't it true, Alice, that this is about.

neighbours needing to blame bad things on other people. And to that we could very well go, oh, hello, knock, knock. It's history telling us that something hasn't changed particularly over the last five centuries, in fact. Society has always wanted and needed scapegoats. Yeah, Fee, I totally agree. I mean, I think that that's exactly what it's about. And it shows the danger of gossip. It shows the danger of spreading rumours. and, you know, frankly, lies about people. And you can see how some women are trying to excuse themselves of things that are happening and perhaps blaming it on others.

So it's really sad in that way. And I think that what we've also got is the rise of things. You've got cheap printed material as well, which I think plays into it. So obviously we're all very concerned about social media at the moment and the way that it can be used to spread misinformation and disinformation just as easily as it can be used to spread very good information that helps us in society. And, you know, I think they were facing a similar kind of thing in the 16th century

and that, you know, suddenly you had the availability of cheaply printed material. And there were these chat books that were produced, which recorded events in the court and people loved reading about these cases. So there was a real kind of public thirst to, to read about these dreadful cases. And I think that they're not just fuels. It fuels the superstition. It fuels this idea that, you know, you could,

there could be somebody like this in your community. What about that woman who lives on the edge of the village? What about her? Could she be one of these evil people? Yeah. And she's been rejected by a man or she's not managed to find a man. And that always marks you out. It's very difficult, pretty sinister.

Into that also falls this very powerful visual image of the witch as the old crone on a bit. broomstick. Now tell us about the broomstick, Alice. Well, that was interesting because I didn't know this at all. So we interview a huge range of experts over the course of these programmes, but apparently that is meant to be a phallic symbol. So it's interesting because there's all this sexuality kind of blended into this, which is, which I think is easy for us to miss. I've missed it. I didn't know that's what broomsticks are about at all. So I think there's a, you know, there's a lot of concern about women's sexuality

and certainly some of the people that are being accused are having relationships with other women and that's even worse as far as these people are concerned. So yeah, sexuality definitely plays into it as well. Is there a male equivalent? Not all witches certainly tried in these courts were women, were they? No, although I must say in these cases the vast majority of them were.

So it certainly, you know, starts out in Essex with a vast majority of the accusations of witchcraft being, being about women, poor women, women on their own, lesbian women. You know, it just, it's, it is scapegoating those people. But no, men, we're not, we're not completely immune to it. And certainly when it ends up being exported elsewhere, if we look at the Salem Witch Childs, then we get quite a lot of men being accused as well. so it's not exclusively women but it definitely starts off I think as a kind of outgrowth of misogyny but I also think I mean it's that the politics of the time are really relevant I think that it's extraordinary

as I said that this is in the time of the Enlightenment and you've got the beginnings of what we would regard to be proper science and the idea of the scientific method emerging and James I first he sets up the Royal Society but at the same time and this really does encapsulate the complexity of the era, writes this book called Demonology, which is about how to spot witches and what to do when you find them. So, you know, there's all that kind of superstition which is around,

but also very, very importantly, religious factionalism as well. So different religious sects vying for power. And we certainly see that in the 16th century with the Reformation, obviously, with the endless tussling between Catholicism and Protestantism. And, of course, that's really carrying on in the civil war as well in the 17th century. So I think a lot of it is motivated by these kind of wider political issues, which are ripping the whole society of Britain apart at the time, you know, pitting groups of people against each other in a culture war,

which is very much religiously framed. Why is Ryland in this, Alice? Well, he's from Essex. And we had a great time going around all these places in Essex, where he'd tell me of all the entertaining japs that he got up to and what he did in these various places as a teenager and a young man. And then we'd descend into the depths of 16th and 17th century witch trials. But it was interesting doing it with Ryland because he,

particularly when we're interviewing our experts, he will ask very different questions from the questions that I will ask. And I think the two of us together doing those interviews made for, I think really fascinating and unusual interviews actually it was fun in a way that I don't want to say it's fun because it's such horrible history but it was interesting and I think that I'm always

trying to look at the bigger picture or look at different perspectives and I think probably bringing him in as well helped us to do that yeah I think it's a very good combination Alice I watched the third episode last night which is about the witch finder general, this chap, Matthew Hopkins. And we've moved further on in history, haven't we? Is it a century later or something like that?

Yeah, it is. We're well into the 17th century in this one. So this really is against the background of the emerging civil war, James I first with demonology, all of that. I think Matthew Hopkins is quite inspired by reading James I first book. It's a good job. Charles doesn't have any free time to, I don't know, pen some sort of tomb about witchcraft. It's just, isn't it extraordinary?

I just find it utterly extraordinary. This king, this king, rightly book, genuinely about, you know, oh dear, witches are a thing. They tried to stop my, tried to stop my fiancé coming across the North Sea, whipped up a storm in order to stop her getting here. So again, you know, I kind of read demonology and think, did you actually believe this? Or is it about playing to an audience? And I don't think we ever know, do? We don't know what's in people's heart of hearts.

And I don't know if it was a kind of populism of its time. He thought, well, people will enjoy this. Well, do you effectively say that this man, Matthew Hopkins, whose name I had heard of, but I didn't, I knew precious little about him, was it just a, he was just an in-cell. He was a chap who hadn't had a lot of luck with the ladies. And here was one way you could take it all out on them. I think it's really hard not to see him in that way.

I mean, you have to be so careful, don't you, looking at history? And I'm constantly reminding myself at this when I'm writing my books and presenting my television programs that, you know, we try, we strive to be objective and to remove ourselves from our subjectivity and the cultural lens of now, whilst actually realizing it's impossible to do that because we are the product of our society and our culture. But it's very hard not to see him as somebody who just feels slighted by women and is. determined to get his own back and he's a really, really nasty piece of work. But again, I think what is totally surprising about him is the fact that other people didn't stop him and that in fact he was, you know, he was facilitated and he was self-appointed, you know, witch finder general is a title he gave himself. Yes, I mean, that's incredible.

It's just, yeah, there's no official role that he's applied for and done an interview for and then being appointed to witch finder general. It was an entirely self-appointed role, but I think once he started using it, it gives him that kind of air of authority. And then other men in authority are kind of sponsoring him and encouraging him and listening to his accusations. And he's doing awful things. I mean, he's going and sitting in pubs, listening to women talking and writing it all down and trying to kind of come up with all of these kind of accusations, which he's then going to level against them. And it's just, it is horrendous. And you can't help seeing it as a complete failure of the wider authorities,

the magistrates, the judges of the time, who should have been there to protect their communities. And instead, they're just, they are just playing into what he's saying and they are facilitating him. And I think that, you know, that it was popular in a weird way. And again, so it's a strange kind of populism where, these men are thinking well actually this seems to be doing rather well people are quite enjoying reading about these witch trials in the in the courts and and don't seem

averse to us actually going all the way and hanging these women as well so it was it's very odd it's very odd so yeah there are there is all this kind of personal ambition rolled into it as well it's complicated it does make you wish that the witches had been successful with some of their curses really doesn't it is there only evidence that some witches were because, Alice, I mean, some people do still believe in certainly the white witchery and there are definitely people who want to believe in a more sinister side of witches now too. Yeah, I don't believe in anything supernatural at all. So I, you know, I don't believe in witchcraft. I don't believe in anything supernatural. I'm a humanist. So I have a very kind

of natural approach to the world. But obviously there are some people that, um, believe in witchcraft today, but they were also, we met some Wiccans actually in the course of filming the programme and they were lovely ladies. We had a cup of tea with them in their witchcraft shop in London and I actually said to them, could I be a humanist witch? And they said, oh yeah, you don't have to believe in the supernatural. You can, you know, be interested in the rhythm of the seasons, which I think modern wicker is very, very kind of modelled around that kind of old idea of the kind of cycle of the year. But I think they probably did believe in actual witchcraft as well. I mean, some of it is probably, you know, these like psychological ideas

of manifestation and the power of positive thinking. And, you know, if you think positive things long enough and if you start your day with a smile on your face, it probably will go better. And equally, if you start your day thinking bad thoughts, then there might be some element of kind of self-fulfillment. But I don't think there's anything super natural for that. Although Noel Edmonds would say different, wouldn't he? Well, he manifested himself a better life. But I think actually his farm and his spa has been flooded recently, so maybe that didn't work.

This extraordinary detail of Satan the cat slightly took me over when I was watching the first episode, Alice, because this is the cat that belongs to Agnes, Joan and Elizabeth to take everybody back to where the interview started. And it is used in evidence against them in court, and you just think if you were in court and you were being accused of witchcraft and the penalty was death,

you just wouldn't admit that you had a cat called Satan. No, I know. It's a very unfortunate name for a cat. He's possibly called Satan rather than Satan, but I think it's basically the same thing. But, I mean, they probably called their cat Satan as a joke and then it was actually a very unfortunate joke. So I think a massive moral there for everybody watching.

If you're going to get a new cat, don't call it Satan. And so when did the prosecution of witches stop being part of English law? Oh, it goes on. It goes on and on and on. I mean, it is absolutely ridiculous that this tale just keeps on going. And I think it carries right on into the 20th century. I'm going to have to check that. But, you know, there's a lot more witch trials to do. So I think that there's definitely more work for me and Rylind.

here when we're putting the trials on trial. I mean, it does, it's just a crazy thing that it does keep, it does keep on keeping on, as it were. I mean, I think when I looked back at these eras, you, you do both things, don't you? You kind of look back and think, I can see similarities between what's happening today and what was happening then. I can see the way that misinformation and gossip can spread. and it's more than just a bit of malicious fun.

It ends up being actually not a victimless crime. It ends up being something where somebody is either seriously hurt or it's fatal. And I can see that, you know, we still have that tendency for sort of in-group, out-group, loyalty that we have to guard against and we have to guard against people coming up with easy solutions which involve scapegoats and especially scapegating vulnerable minorities, which is still happening. And so there's an element of it where you look back at the past and you think, oh, we haven't got any better.

We have got better. We have got better. We've had all these rights revolutions over the last 150 years. And we are in a massively different place. And we're in a massively different place legally, obviously, where we not only have those rights revolutions where people in society think there should be better rights for children, for women, for LGBT. communities, but actually those become enshrined in law. And so I think I end up with the perspective

that we're in a much, much better place today, but we can still behave better and there's still more we can do in law as well. And let's be watchful, forever watchful about that misogyny that allows men to look at women and see something they don't understand and interpret that as being a threat to them to other people and to be deeply sinister. Sometimes, you know, we are just different and that's okay. Professor Alice Roberts and the Witches of Essex is on Sky and it starts tonight. Yes, and you've seen some of it. I've seen some of it. It'll make you fume that it's good.

And I'd really like their reconstructions because sometimes I find them a bit plodding and boring when they reconstructed that. But they've injected some quite kind of funny things in there like the incident room. which is manned by Rylan Clark. I like, I worry though, that the actors who get their parts, I mean, I think if I had gone into acting, which I didn't, I might have been a shoe-in for the role of a, you know, a desperate village. A wizened crone. Yes, a crone in a hut with a cat called Satan.

Well, I can see that, actually. That's what I mean. I'm sorry to tell you. It can't be brilliant when your agent gives you a tinkle and you think, oh, what's this? Could it be Hollywood calling or just the eye player? But no, it's that you've... Yeah, you've passed the audition to play soon-to-be-executed,

impoverished woman. Oh, dearly me. Well, look, let's cheer ourselves up with thoughts of the Cheltenham Literature Festival where we will be appearing live on stage with the beautiful Penny Lancaster on Thursday afternoon. So if you're coming to see us, then do come and say a proper hello.

You can ask questions. We've got that special thingy, haven't we? Oh, yes, we've got the thingy. So, and we should say that some of the conversation with Penny is going to go on Times Radio, but some of it will just be for special people who listen to a podcast version of it. That's right, isn't it?

And Christmas. And it's going out at Christmas. Don't mention Christmas. God Almighty. Oh, well, we'll get some Christmas tips from Penny. Christmas with Rod. I've already booked the Carol service. I'm quite looking forward to that.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sorry, we've got some lunch on Christmas. Right. Ho, ho, ho. Goodbye. Bollocks. Congratulations.

You've staggered somehow to the end of another off air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it last. every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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