Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Tiny woman, tiny gnome statue (with Gisèle Pelicot)

Episode Date: May 26, 2026

Jane and Fi ponder why men love such big statues of themselves, just how much more red North London can get, and why Michael Gove just doesn't remember them (sad face).They're also joined by Gisèle Pelicot, who speaks about her memoir 'A Hymn to Life'Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hang on a second. I'm not on. Going on. Wait. I probably am on. Oh, look at that. Right. Welcome everybody to a sun-drenched London town. And did you have a little weekend away? So part of a weekend

we spent outside of the capital, most of it spent in the capital, with the boiling tarmac smell emanating all around. It has just been too hot. I know we quite frequently complain, but it's 34 degrees already in London town and that is a struggle just because we haven't got the infrastructure

and the tubes aren't airconned or the temperament. It's a bank holiday weekend as well and it was also a massive footballing weekend in the part of London that I live in and there were some very, they were beyond dehydrated people on Monday who were still very intent on rehydrating Yes, okay. And I think things are only going to get worse next weekend. I think the weather is changing, but Arsenal have got another big game.

Yeah, but also they've got their big, big parade, haven't they, next Sunday? There is a restaurant. It's a very fancy restaurant. Our executive producer, Rosie, is in with us today. She is the wife of a chef, and she knows all about the North London restaurant. Seeing Trillo is a very lovely, fancy Italian restaurant. Do you know what they've done? What was they done? So they had a blue facade and fascia. They've painted it red. Yeah, because they're on Highbury Corner. Oh, that is good. I do know somebody who lives on Highbury... Is it Highbury Road? Holloway Road.

And she said that by Sunday night, it was actually quite unbearable because it was just beeping and shouting the whole weekend. They're very happy. But also, the weather does something to us, doesn't it? Yeah, because we're not conditioned. We can't do it. We can't.

deal with it. And I've woke up every morning of the long bank holiday weekend, honestly, initially thinking that I was on holiday. But in fact, I wasn't on holiday. I was at home. It was flip-flop weather. It was easy grass at half or seven in the morning weather. Have you got your emergency shorts out?

I've got the shorts have been out. Oh my God. I think the fox, by the way, has got hay fever. Because it's sneezing very badly over the weekend. I have actually one. Do I go to a vet? Who do I ring? Give it some piraton?

because it does keep waking me and the cat up when we're asleep. How big is the sneeze? You can imagine. It's a hefty fox. It's a big sneeze. And it wakes you up. Well, if you're just dozing, as I think a lot of people, over the weekend, it's quite the noise. Anyway.

Okay. It's like, bono's the god, it's like a David Attenborough film in my back, easy garden at the moment. Have you given him a name? No, I don't even know if it hadn't sexed it, so I don't know. I really don't know. Okay.

But I just, look, I'm all for a burst of sunshine. And honestly, late evening, isn't it wonderful? Just to be outside with a no-alcohol beer. Wonderful, wonderful. But it's just that half-past one in the afternoon thinking, oh, good God, make this stop. But I'm sure it will, and then we'll start moaning again. Very much so.

Yeah. We have a pet snake on the looks. Oh, you're great. You see, there you go. Is it in your road or from your menagerie? Mine. God, no, I've never. No, I've never had a snake.

There was just a hilarious. I really hope my neighbours don't mind me mentioning this because they don't have to be on a podcast. But there was just, we've got a WhatsApp group, which is superb. I mean, it often tickles our fancy. But a message went up late, late last Thursday night saying, is anybody missing a snake? As we found one.

But then there was no reply. There was no update. Everyone was just like, oh my God, what's happened? And then it all went off. And yes, there has been a missing pet snake. It went missing six months ago. And it's managed to survive in the street for six months. And it's looking a little bit porkier, apparently,

than when it went missing. So it's been feeding on something. But it's a little bit. It has some people have been on edge. But it's not venomous. No, it wouldn't be. It's quite tiny. It's just been eating field mice then.

It's been eating something. Yeah. Yes. But it's managed to survive on its own. And of course it's arrived. Absolutely delighted. But it was just, it was a bit of a dov-dof moment. A wonderful reunion they must have had.

Yep. As we wondered what had happened overnight. The calls for incoming message to update us, please. Now, in the heat, I think a lot of people enjoyed your conversation with Pastor Doug. Are you still in touch? We're never going to keep in touch. Because as, I mean, he wouldn't want to keep in touch with us because we're sinners, we are feminists, and also we don't fit the bill because we are large-breasted feminists.

We're a real challenge to pass to darkness thinking. Very much so. We could knock him off course in more ways than one. Well, we would because, because the fact that we are large-breasted women, we have currency, because that's the mindset that he comes from, but then we're feminists, so we don't. I never think about them as a pair of currents. We're in some ways, yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, but I've never been able to take mine along to, for in exchange and ask for any money for them. Obviously, Doug thinks we can. Can I just say, it was really kind of people to get in touch.

He just, he wound everybody up. I mean, of course he would. He was, to use a very, very technical, ecclesiastical term, a twit. So let's just hear it for Claire and Emma, actually, who are Christians. Yes, and they just found it so offensive, offensive. Well, I don't blame them. What he's saying. and Bridget, who doesn't like being called a biddy,

but wouldn't mind smaller breasts again. Very confusing for Doug. Jew and Julia, Angela, has coined him, Wee Willie Wilson. I wish I'd thought of that in the moment. Sally and Watford and Adet Anion. So thank you all for writing in. I mean, there is an argument for never letting those people on air. No, no, I think we need to hear them.

Because other people lend them their support. They like what they hear. They want to hear more. They go to those services, they join the churches. So just because we find it mind-bogglingly ridiculous, I say bring it on, bring them out, let's hear them. Yeah. And it's a very timely reminder that so many people are finding strength in prejudice. And that's just not what you should ever be holding in your head of you're sitting in a pew. It's just not the interpretation of the Bible that decent Christians have. Well, I mean, I know almost nothing about the Bible. Do have a religious studies O-level grade B. But what I did glean, gleam. What is it, glean?

Glean. Glein. Is that Jesus spent a lot of time with the poor, the disenfranchised, the desperate. They were the people he gave his time to. Not heavily bearded pastors. And also just not backing people who are still claiming that to be gay is a sin. to have an abortion is a sin I mean

go figure anyway so we've let him out we've let Pastor Doug out and you've heard him he's had an airing and now we don't have to waste our time or our energy on him at all

but for those people whose blood pressure was raised apologies for that because it's not what we really want to do on the podcast it's not what I need right now it's very much not what you need so

I hope you didn't listen are you all right well I was there wasn't I yes yes I did listen. You accuse me of not listening to our... Really? You've gone too far.

Now, I know I was wittering on last week about the Elizabeth Strout book, novel, The Things We Never Say. I got up very early. I think it was Saturday morning. I just couldn't sleep. It was so hot. And I finished it. I just thought, I'm going to drink tea and I'm going to read a book. I'm not going to look at my phone. I'm not going to put the radio on. I'm not going to do anything.

Honestly, if you haven't read it yet, if you are new to Elizabeth Strout, you think, oh, please read that book, particularly if you're a middle-aged person, male or female. The central character is male, but it's a female author, plenty of women in the book.

It is one of the most moving books I have ever read. What a hard recommend. Honestly, it's beautiful. And are you any closer to being able to put your finger on or explain what it is that Elizabeth Strout manages to do in books? because you were saying they're not books that are filled with plot or twists or any great dynamism, but they're so beautiful.

But they're filled with life and they're filled with those nuggets of living that we don't always talk about, hence the title of the book, little acts of compassion that may actually, you may have actually have benefited from them, but you will never know they've happened. I'm not going to spoil the book, but there's an incident in which the lead character does something stupid and someone else goes above and beyond to help them out.

And then, oh, I don't want to spoil it. I really don't want to spoil it. But it was one of the wisest and most beautiful books I've ever read. So Elizabeth Strout, all hail. You are a genius. You really are. You're a writer of truly heartbreaking fiction that feels incredibly real, I would say.

Stick that on the back of the book. Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Well, I hope her publisher is, It's also a beautiful looking book. It's only out in hard back at the moment. But if we get the chance to listen to it, I bet it's lovely to listen to it as well. And of course blissfully short, 200 pages or so. Well, that's good. Perfect in this heat. Yeah. So it is a lovely moment, isn't it, when you can shut off the rest of the world and just give yourself permission to only read. I find it is quite often. It's quite hard to do though, isn't it? It is the first thing in the morning. And I'm fine as long as I don't even switch the radio on when I go downstairs. to make a cup of coffee. I think that's fatal. I have to go straight into the book. If I pick up my phone even to look at the time, it's gone, hasn't it?

Yeah. That connection. It's a golden window, particularly right now, use it. Yeah. Because none of us are getting any sleep in the United Kingdom. I think I'm not getting any younger train. Certainly not getting any younger. On a similar vein, and I don't want to take anything away from your hard recommend, because it sounds like that has become one of your favourite books all time.

It has. But I have read the first of Peter Granger's novel. Now he's this extraordinary crime writer who's self-published so successfully. He was then picked up by a publisher when he basically sold about a million copies himself. And he's just a proper slow burn word of mouth. And he's coming on the podcast to talk about, I think it's probably 12th or 13th book. Later on in the summer, he is now, you know, his entire back catalogue is being published by a very well-known publisher. So I thought I'd go right back to the beginning.

and I can see why it's just such a successful series. His main characters are so thoughtful, it is police procedural crime. You kind of think, oh my God, I can't read another one of those. You know, that's like eating beans on toast forever. I've just done too much of this. But it's really wonderful. And his central character, D.C. Smith,

has a way of explaining why police, good police, do what they do, that is in that kind of vein that you've just described from Elizabeth Strout, it's all the crimes that never get committed if policing is done well, if it puts the right people behind bars, if it stops a journey towards criminality,

it's all of the people who get to live their lives and not be harmed, but of course that's the stuff in the ether that you and I don't see. You never find out about it. It's so beautifully put, Jane. It's a really, really touching... So you'd recommend, I've got a copy of one of his other books.

Yes, well, we've got them, but we're so far down the line. And I did start reading that book that we've got that we will be talking to him about. And I just thought, all this is a waste, because it's slightly references some big things that happened along the way, so you've gone right back to the beginning. And that has been a joyful place to go in the heat this weekend as well. Just reassure people that you're okay, because the last time that they would have heard from you,

you had the monitor on. No, that was Wednesday. So I was back on Thursday. Saint monitor. So, yes, not keeping up with my medical history. I'm so sorry. In the naughty corner there, doctor. Are you okay?

You handed it in, you got your results back. I haven't got the results. But as anyone who has suddenly discovered, they might have high blood pressure. And I should say both my parents were on blood pressure meds for ages. My dad's still on them. So I'm very well aware of my genetic thing. I'm starting every day with a huge glass of beetroot juice, as I said last week.

And actually, the more I drink, the more I'm enjoying it. Good. Yes, it's absolutely loving. I'm cantering down the stairs, obviously clinging to the banister these days, not quite the young as I once was, and launch into the beetroot and almost certainly leave the house with a beetroot moustache. Nice. Very nice. It's quite stained teeth.

Yeah, I think one of my neighbours did knock to offer me some milk. They didn't need the other day to think I'd just drunk my beetroot juice. That's the story. God know. I just have so many awkward encounters with people on the street because I just look a bit bizarre. Have you got a mirror in the hall? No. Maybe that's a thought.

Could be the answer. That's Christmas sorted. Carolyn is a loyal NHS servant and she sent an email about blood pressure and females. Yes, females because I'm a female. So the short final point is that Carolyn has decided that the use of the word female is okay. adjective, but unacceptable as a noun.

Okay. That's a brilliant way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff. Regarding the symptoms of high blood pressure, it's notoriously hard to notice. Many people are asymptomatic. This is why it is so know your numbers, because we are considering the long-term negative effects of this on your health. Essentially, you need to think of it as your vascular system, your blood pipes, being under-increased pressure. Occasionally, this may cause headaches, but typically people are. asymptomatic and in the long-term

important pipes in organs such as eyes and kidneys cause long-term damage. Some people really don't like the thought of taking tablets but if you're advised that your blood pressure needs managing please please take them every day of course we must stress lifestyle changes can also have a positive effect on healthy blood pressure. You're doing all the right things aren't you?

Well I'm trying really hard not to have a bagel every morning and I can't make a greater sacrifice than that fee. No, okay. If that adds another six months to my life But you gave up smoking a long time ago after that one fag on the Isle of Man. In 1980. You do take regular exercise. I bustle around and do Pilates.

Yes, we hear a lot about the Pilates class. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. It's as if it goes on longer than 50 minutes somewhere. It goes on for an hour. It goes on for an hour. You have a healthy varied diet and you're managing your weight. I eat a lot of beans. I mean, I had chickpeas with my lunch yesterday and white beans in the evening.

I mean, you know, those big jars, those big jars. Yeah, but how long are we in the studio for? No. There's no, as we know, no winds are change. There's no wind of change. Ridiculous. Kate joins us from Cork in Ireland. Your recent discussion about whether or not to praise or comment on young people's looks,

this has really got people going, reminded me of far-a-forcet Major's aesthetic dilemma. When asked if she disliked any part of her body, she replied, my eyelids are too thick. Do you remember that? Go, Farrah. Yeah, ridiculous. Away.

Kate says, my own experience has been twofold. An overly critical mother and a loving Irish grandmother. I won't go into the grimness of the impact on my body image of the digs and unkindness of my mum. However, my nan could say anything to me, usually not overly praiseworthy. For example, when dressed up to go out clubbing, her observation would be something like,

yes, you'll pass in a crowd. I feel that it's more the intent and motivation behind any comment. It's a reflection on how the commentator critiques your look. God, you look just like my mother, letting your hair go grey like that, is something my mum would say. My nan's comments came from me asking her and her saying, honestly and kindly what she felt. In the 80s, it was an unwise poem to which she would say something like,

well, I think the young folk are all wearing their hair like that now. I took the positive from whatever she said to me, because I know she loved me and I think that's what I'm trying to say. Kate, thank you. It is interesting sometimes the difference between the easy relations between a grandparent and an individual

and the more tension there is between parents and children. Oh, it must be easier. It just is, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, neither of us are yet grandmothers. But obviously, do you want to tell the group something?

Not coming. No, no. Most definitely not. I do not wish to say the group anything. But isn't it funny? I would definitely like to be a nan. I've really got this thing in my head about it. No pressure girls. Yeah, it would be...

And obviously, you know, with my blood pressure and everything, they might need to think about it. Although not in this heat. I don't want either of them thinking about it in this heat. But it's funny, isn't it? Because you think you'll be good at it. And actually, I do think I might be quite good at it. But I also am aware that it'll give me the chance

to be more patient than I'm. was as a mother, which I think it's a double, it's a double-edge thing, isn't it? Well, I think it is. And lots of grandparents say, don't they, that it's a chance to write some wrongs if you feel that you had some wrongs. Which was never quite as paid. I was not impatient, but I think I could have been more patient. So this time around, do you think you'd be prepared to, when you're playing post offices? Oh, not post office. You'd be prepared not to be the postmaster or the post-mistress, and if you're playing classrooms, to be the people. You'd be the not the teacher. I suppose I might, but I really didn't like being the pupil first time round

and I'm not entirely sure I'll be, maybe I'll be more generous with grandchildren should they spring along. Spring up. Well, I mean, when you're playing post offices with your grandchildren, it's mainly self-service tills. So you just leave them to it. Oh, I mean, to be often, most of the time they'll be closed. Do you ever been to the post office just around the corner from here? Yes, I've got. Oh my God. You take your life in your hands. Days of my life in that post office. I went quite often at Christmas. That's a very unwise. Well, no, but if you work in a post office,

do tell us what it's like, because some of those queues, I mean, my life, you could honestly, you could read a couple of Elizabeth Strouts in the queue around the corner here. Yeah, but also the M.O. is just wrong. It's up around I. It's slipping into Latin there.

Well, it's in your blood, isn't it? Because you can still turn up at a post office counter and you're either buying two first-class stamps or you're applying for a passport to be checked. And that's mad. That's like going to a petrol station. You're either filling up with petrol or you're having a full service under the bonnet.

It's just not... It's not a sensible business isn't. No, I don't think it is. You can get stamps. You know, it was under the Margaret Fatscher government that stamps became available in places other than post offices. I do remember that. Yeah, because it was at that point, you could only get them in a post office.

They had such a monopoly, didn't they? It's just madness, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really crazy. Anyway, a little bit of history there for people. Rosie looked fascinated.

She doesn't remember a time when you had to go to the post office for stamps. I'd actually just like to give a shout out to my local post office in the going to Green. They are amazing and they appreciate that everybody has different needs. So they almost have a runner who comes up and down the queue. Wow. So clever. And says, what do you need? And then they'll judge about how long it's going to take you, which desk.

So they're triaging. They're triaging. Yeah, that's what you need. Yeah. Well, that solves the problem of... So you're not going to get stuck behind someone doing a passport because I think they might even tell you to come back at a certain time. Or piss off.

Anyway. Yeah, that is great. All hail to them. Give them another name check. Which one is it? Newington Green. Newington Green. Well, don't travel from all over Britain to...

Because that just is sending the wrong message. It's not going to help. No, I just ask you for myself. Oh, I see... Popping on the way home. The problem with the London Bridge one, and I'm completely with you, I have the deepest of sympathy

for the people who are trying to serve us, is that this is largely a work part of London. So people are bringing parcels into work and they've only got a 15-minute break or half an hour lunch hour. So the impatience in the queue is just massive because I think it's probably just a little bit of a different demographic.

And everybody's hungry, aren't they? In your lunch hour, you go and do your parcel first, and then you're going to get your food. on the way back. It's the wrong way to do it. It's like going to a supermarket when you're hungry. I just went to the supermarket at the weekend to be cooler. It was lovely. Yeah, did you spend a long time by the fresh-fresh counter?

Did you scoping the... Oh, it reminds me. Have you seen that drama set in Greece with the group of friends on holiday? Oh, two weeks in August. I looked at it and I thought, oh, I don't know. Oh, I quite like you to try for the group. I've only watched one episode and I'm diving in again tonight.

Okay. But there's an incident in which a very unhappy couple actually, it's decided that they're going to cook on the first evening of this group holiday. It's not quite what they had in mind. And they go off and they haven't got much money. He's just been through terrible experiences out of work. And they can't find any fresh fish that they can afford. So they go to the super pocket.

It's really frozen and rough-looking fish. Anyway, that's just a very bizarre, tiny element of the first episode. But it looks promising. With your knowledge of Greek mythology, I think you'll find plenty to enjoy. Do you think it's the perfect precursor? and warm up to Christopher Nolan's Odysseus. I think it might be. Having seen the trailer, I think it might well be. I'm quite up for that.

Oh, I'm so up for that. I'm so up for that. It's a great story. What was his story again? He went away and never came back and the poor wife he was waiting at home. What was it? So he was basically called up into service on behalf of other Greek generals to go and fight in Troy. And he then made his way back. He had left his beautiful wife, Penelope. And his young son, Telemachus at home, he'd been away for about 10. to 12 years, if memory serves me correctly. How could he be away for so long?

Because the Trojan War took a very, very long time. Rosie was siphling a yawn. Well, let's say that's the heat, rather than her lack of interest in. But do you know, it is a great, great story because it's about men being told that their value lies in military campaigns and greatness. It's about the realization throughout your life

that maybe your mortality might lie in your children. And it's the story of a father getting back to his son, what it has done to his son for him to be away, and the temptation of a beautiful woman along the way, because that's what happens to Odysseus. So I can't wait to see all of that played out. I don't want to go down a kind of rabbit hole of Greek mythology, but it has survived through the centuries for a reason

that the metaphor and the allegory contained in it is still relevant to today. So the sacrifices that people make for war, the way that grief weighs primarily on women, the way that women will try and put their point of view across and just be completely and utterly overshadowed by a desire to win. I mean, we are still seeing in the world this insane male allegiance to triumph, which is regarded as only, you're only able to get it

if you then walk under or whatever it is of swords. I mean, it's just absolutely magic. So many people die in the meantime. So it's all still there. I think he'll do it brilliantly. I can't wait. You're going to love it. I hope that there's a Tarama Salata bar

on the way into every single cinema. At least an olive or two, you'd hope so. Very much hope so. And some really decent Greek wine, which I believe is completely sensational at the moment. Is it? And maybe it'll be one of those films that is allowed to go beyond two hours

and will still be gripped by it. Oh, well, I'm very excited about it. For some reason, I'm thinking of that big statue, that phone man. has put up with himself. John Caldwell. Go on John Caldwell. What's his phone company?

Phones for you? Phones for you. Mainly for him. As it turns out, phones very much for him. It's a seven-foot statue. He can't be seven-foot tall, or is he? No, he's not. Well, I just thought, can he?

He's made it completely in his own image. He's gone big. He's gone big, right? And didn't it cost something ridiculous, like 250,000 pounds to make? Yes, I think it costs. It's a great deal. It might even have been more than that.

It looks good. It's made me a little think about the garden, whether a statue of me could join the fox. A small statue, really saying, yes. If he goes big, you can go small. Oh, well, have a time. Like a gnome. But if you were going to go for a statue,

don't put it in the back garden, darling. Be proud. Put it in the front. You're right. Entertain residents of East West Kensington and Rwitra. Tribute to myself. And then when the delivery drivers come and or delivery arrives and they don't know where I, just say look for the statue of Jane Garvey. It's where Jane Garvey lives.

Honestly, I mean, you've just got to, in a way, I quite admire his spirit. I suppose. Do you? Well, no, not really. I think he's a Burke. But what? It's just, it's just extraordinary. Is there a woman in the world who would do that?

I don't think so. I don't think there has been yet. But isn't that as much to do with the fact that women, you know, haven't been able to make it to the top of phone companies because there are too many glass ceilings or just scents along the way? You know, so maybe when it hopefully one day becomes a more even playing field, we will be rewarded with many, many pompous, idolatry type demonstrations of our egos. Oh, I hope, Sophie.

Oh, very much. In the meantime, I would have a small gnome in your own likeness commissioned right away. Thank you. Oh, that reminds me, the Chelsea Flower Show. You missed, there was a little bit of a shindig at the Chelsea Flower Show. How was it? Well, it was more enjoyable than I might have anticipated, I must say. Only because as we sit here in the podcast studio,

there are images of some of our colleagues going past on the screen. Jamal Mark Kerrins came along to this drinks-due at... Well, I think she was kind of organising it, wasn't she? She was in charge of boosting. the guest list, which I think explains why I got quite a late call-up. You couldn't go. So I hadn't initially been invited. No, I think we, I think the... No, no, I think you're right. I think we were emergency fillers about a week before.

I think that's right. Let's just be honest. And listen, I'm so cheap. I'll go to anything, even if I am a last-minute call-up on the whole. It was lovely, it was genuinely lovely drinks. And our old charm anika rice was there, she says hello. So that was lovely. Who else did I see? Angela Hartnett Oh, I like her I really like her And not that I don't like Anica No, no I know you like Anica

And Kathy Lairdall's everybody said hello Gosh I know it was quite star-starred I don't think Michael Gove was there Did he say hello? No So when you said everyone said hello Not Govey

No no everyone did We have always got a very diverse Range of interviews for you on this podcast. And today's is just extraordinary, Jane. Well, I don't think there can be many more famous women in the world right now than Giselle Pelico, who has written this incredible memoir, which we have discussed quite a bit on the podcast and on the radio show as well, because I interviewed the two interpreters who translated him to life into English, and we've also spoken to her lawyer. So this was a fantastic opportunity to talk to Giselle,

who is in London just for today, actually. So she's doing a whole round of different interviews. And we talked to her, I talked to her through an interpreter. And I know this is going to say, I hope it doesn't sound fatuous, but I think if anyone is concerned about her, worries that perhaps she is being asked to do too much, that this woman has been through hell

and is now being made to go through more, hell, I would want to reassure them that she genuinely looks fantastic. Her facially, she is glowing, her hair is glossy and immaculate, and she told me that she was feeling really, really good about herself and about life. So I do, I mean, even if you've read the book, you can't really begin to understand the amount of suffering that woman has been through. But to have emerged in the way she has is a colossal achievement. So it was really an honour to spend some time with her. Giselle, thank you very much for talking to us. We really appreciate it. In your book, you make a real attempt to try to understand why your husband behaved in the way he did.

Do you expect readers to feel compassion for him? No, not at all. I didn't write. The book, readers to have compassion for him. I wanted in the book to get across my story, what I lived through, because I want people to get to know me and get to know what I'd encountered before the trial.

And I thought about writing a book, but I thought, what am I going to write this book? And essentially, I wanted to be authentic and sincere and to get across my emotions, by story what I lived through. And it's a kind of therapy for me as well to rebuild myself, get to know myself. And I wanted to then,

for the Revis, to get to know me as well. But when you first found out from the police what he'd done, you went home and you did his laundry. What was going on in your head at that time? It's true, but when I discovered what happened, my brain kind of disassociated and the cursor kind of stopped on pause in my head. I felt it had to stop. I felt that really I didn't want anything I'd been told was the truth.

So I went back home. I had a certain reflex that I don't know there were defense mechanisms, but I did the washing and did the eyeling. It was as if, in fact, life was going to Quintelia, and I have felt that I didn't want it. What Laurent told me was the truth. I was living through a nightmare. So I had to accept what I'd been told at the police station. You are incredibly honest in the book,

and you talk at one point about missing your status as a married woman. Can you just explain exactly what you mean by that? That's really quite a complicated question. Why do I want to carry on living my life as before? I was hoping that my 50 years of life was Mr. Bellito, have you just been a lie. So yes, I hung on to memories. Because it was radical for me to think back of these good times.

That can seem to be surprising. It was just a way to be able to keep standing out. I know, though, Mr. Bellis, who's act were monstrous, but I tried to kind of juggle with the two parallels that he was a human being and a monster. It was easier, but of course he was going to be judged and that's what happened. And I wanted to remember the good times.

My children want to destroy everything and their hate and their horror was legitimate. But I wanted to detect myself and I was protecting, defending myself. When you waived your anonymity, what was the impact in the courtroom when everybody in that room realized what you'd done? When I made that decision to not have me flew,

I couldn't have envisaged the nightmare that I was going to live through within this court. And I saw those who looked at me were accused and I was humiliated. And in fact, those who were being judged was not them but me. I held to the end throughout the trial because of all the women that were there that was supporting me outside the court. And when you saw the men who'd raped you, these every men,

what did you think of them? It is true when you see them. You think that everybody, they were 22 to 70 years old, or what kinds of professional careers, married men, single men, with girlfriends, missed everybody, your neighbor, your brother, your friend, your husband. But of course, you have also to say yourself, they're not missed everybody, you can't capable of raping an unconscious woman in her bedroom that does give rise to questions. And it's true that they all went onto a site that's been closed down now,

but there are some that have opened up and again and goes down again, thank goodness, but they all met up in this salon and they were all said they weren't culpable, that it was Mr. Bellicou who had kind of attracted them, but when you look at the videos, you realize that they were all accomplices, and so it's complicated to see how these individuals could have behaved in such a way. They were living very close to me, and it was as if they'd just come to spend an evening playing cards.

And so they denied. They said they were innocent, that they had nothing to reproach. They did break me, but fortunately had the videos which told the truth. Otherwise, they would have been let go. Luckily, all of them were considered to be culpable, and it meant that I also could have this status as a victim.

I don't want to be a victim anymore because I was recognized of being a victim then but now I want to move on to other things of course I'll never forget what I go through there are scars that will not heal but that's why I wrote this book because writing this book was a kind of therapy as well

and I had done it so everyone all those women you feel alone and isolated who don't dare speak and see that what I dare do you at they can also do it and I'm delighted today that people are taking the word and also expressing themselves thanks to my story. I think I will have transmitted that strength to them and I'm really very pleased that this story can actually help them.

When you tell your story, you go all over the world talking at conferences and book festivals and in interviews like this, how many men are in the audience listening to you? At the beginning, there weren't many. And in fact, it was quite surprising. but I think at one point there were some men that were starting to question themselves

and in fact a number of them said to me I was ashamed of being a man I knew no longer how to behave and bit by bit as I meet more and more there are more and more men and when questions are asked in the public men are there to say thank you

thank you for what you've done and you've really changed my way of looking at my wife and women and I kind of consciousness raised in a way. And it's interesting to realize that there are some men who've also read it because their wives say, I've read it, you're going to read it, their husbands, and it should affect men and women. And it does, and I'm really quite proud. I've got a French friend whose son is

the Lycee Francaise in Lisbon and he read it. They read it in a university and I'm really pleased about that. And maybe, of course, you want to keep your feet on the ground. But I think my story certainly did affect the world because I received so many letters and said that this must never take place again. Of course, I know there are still some women who are victims of this. So we're going to have to control the platforms where young children can connect themselves. We've got to be able to talk to our sons and to men. We're here to live together and we're made to live together and all of that has got to stop. How much do you blame pornography?

Really appalling as far as our young children who don't know, in fact, what love is. They think that love is a way of violently treating women, but in their heads that's what love is. So we have to look at these children. Sometimes they're children of nine or ten who are already looking at pornography. We have to ensure that the parents be vigilant. You mustn't just give them iPads because I think that, in fact, It's something that's totally devastating as far as the future. So we've got to be able to talk, dialogue, first all, through education within the family home,

but also the national educational level, we've got to realise that, in fact, it really is an evil of society at the moment. Do you think your husband, your ex-husband, would have behaved in the way he did without pornography? Because he did use extreme pornography, didn't he? Yeah, when he was very young, now I'm convinced he was using pornography and I know it carried us. When we were living together, I never saw on his computer. Of course, he must have done it without me being president and then it would have struck me. But I never saw that from Mr. Bidicou and he never was salacious about women.

He was always very elegant and that's why I found it really difficult to understand his behavior at the moment when it was revealed. to me. And in fact, I felt at that point that I didn't know him. And that was explained extremely well by the psychiatrist Bolbin Sousson, who said that he had two sides to his personality A, personality A, where he was kind and extrovert and kind with his family and his friends, and you don't see anything. And then site B, where he was really perverted, and this kind of dissent into hell, the fact that he was able to make me undergo everything I underwent. read your book and had learnt just a little bit about your experience will be, in some ways, astonished that you have been able to trust again and found, you found a new partner.

How did you do that? It was very natural. I had never envisaged meeting another man or falling in love, but some friends, joining friends who knew him. And we met at an evening. and we talked a lot, but I didn't think anything of it. We thought we'd become friends,

and then it just happened really naturally. We really fell in love. He'd also lived through a difficult moment in his life. He accompanied his wife to the end of her life, and we really just fell in love like a couple of adolescents. And it was a beautiful story, and I trust him because he's a really extraordinarily valued man, and I have complete trust in him.

And that's something that's also important, There are a lot of women who live with wonderful men's, wonderful companions. You mustn't assume that all men are perverts. That's absolutely not the case. No, we know that. We always remember to say not all men. But there is no doubt that you have made such a difference to the world. You've won every honour from your own country.

Our own queen has written to you, I know, and that means a great deal to you. But we still can't control what goes on in people's heads. Does it concern you that there's some real savagery in the heads, in the minds of some men, perhaps too many men? I think that we have to control all the platforms, more media platforms, and all institutions have got to take things in hands. I think there have to be some stakeholders that look after all this, because we have to think about the victims that are more and more victims of sexual violence. and that's something you've got to be vigilant and we've got to be concerned by and the whole of society

has got to be vigilant and say to itself that they need to use the means so that those men are followed by psychiatrists because after all, when you imprison somebody that's not going to necessarily solve the problem I'm convinced

those individuals that are in prison they won't have been thinking I think they felt they weren't no they're not going to be introspective at all I would hope they'd be followed by psychologists, that realized the harm they caused because I don't think

they really felt that they committed a crime, but they did commit a crime and I don't know whether really they understand that the fact that they've attacked me. Some years ago, you say yourself in the book,

you were living what you call a little life. Would you have believed yourself capable of becoming this remarkable person that you are today? Well, I always ask myself the questions.

What was my mission? on Earth. I asked myself this question very young. Basically, I wanted to build up a family and I realized very quickly from September 20204, that was my mission.

I wanted to allow women to speak as well and that's something I'm convinced of together and in fact to give my tiny contribution to the edifice it was a project that was going to take a long time but I feel that I wanted to transfer

the flame to the new generation so that they can carry on with this fight. And are you happy now? Very, very happy. My family is united. We're more united than ever. I've got somebody in my life ago I'm mostly in love with and something I could never is envisaged. So you can really rise up again.

And I did have a really tough journey. It wasn't always easy in my life that I always, some fact, and I had a deal with adversity, and I felt that life would always be kind to me at some point, and I think that I'm really on the right track now. Giselle Pelico, and her book, Hymn to Life, is out now. There's not a great deal you can say about Giselle. That hasn't already been said, but honestly, Fee, I'll never forget just spending a little bit of time with her. And I really hope more people are now encouraged to read that book, excruciating, though it is at times.

and one of the excruciating things about it is how tough she is on herself and how soul-bearingly honest she is about herself as well. It's properly difficult to read, but I don't think anyone would regret doing it, actually. And for us to have slightly changed our attitude as well is such a monumental thing for a woman to have achieved.

And by that I mean, in a very, very simple ask that the shame moved over from women who have been subjected to sexual assault and rape, the shame moves to the man who did it. And of course she's right. And we all knew that, but to hear her say that, I think it is one of those things that stays with you forever and does make an enormous, enormous difference.

And it needs to make a difference because, as we know in this country, are still cases of people not getting it about the effect of rape on a woman and the shame that needs to be attached. Yeah, quite. To the men who do it. Yeah, 100%. And it is, I think, going to lead to wider and, frankly, much needed and necessarily explicit conversations about pornography and its impact.

We just can't avoid it any longer. We really, really can't. Thank you to Chazelle and the team that accompanied her today. and we are back tomorrow, Jane and Fee at Times Talk Radio. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio.

Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.